Latest / NO FILTER / Episode 22_ Mary Bell_ Prolific Child Serial Killer(M4A_128K)

Transcript

Episode 22_ Mary Bell_ Prolific Child Serial Killer(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm Andrea. I'm Haley, and you're listening to Inhuman,
0:05
Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. I legit almost would have said
0:09
Speaker 1: the Monster of Cleveland. I'm still in that mind, I know.
0:12
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that the other day. I was like,
0:14
Speaker 1: because I was mad that our email is still like
0:17
Speaker 1: in Human Monster, but like, they're all monsters, so it's
0:19
Speaker 1: kind of fine. But I was like, dang it, I
0:21
Speaker 1: wish we could have just had everything in human podcast
0:24
Speaker 1: in human podcasts, I know. So it's fine, it's fine. Okay.
0:29
Speaker 1: So today, Haley, I'm going to be covering the case
0:34
Speaker 1: of Mary Bell, who I thought was considered the youngest
0:39
Speaker 1: serial killer of all time, but she actually got that
0:42
Speaker 1: title taken from her in two thousand and six by
0:46
Speaker 1: a young man named Arma Armor r no Amar deep Sada,
0:54
Speaker 1: who was like eight. Yes, but Mary Bell was ten
1:01
Speaker 1: and eleven when she committed her heinous crimes, and she
1:06
Speaker 1: was also known as the Tyne Side Strangler. I'd never
1:10
Speaker 1: heard that, but that's something I've read in some of
1:12
Speaker 1: the research that I did, so I just wanted to
1:15
Speaker 1: include that in case anyone knows her better as that
1:19
Speaker 1: randomly a ten year old being a strangler. Wow, I know,
1:23
Speaker 1: it's crazy, it's like it's creepy. Yeah, I'll just go
1:25
Speaker 1: ahead and give you like a huge trigger warning. This
1:27
Speaker 1: case does include child death, it includes mutilation, and it
1:35
Speaker 1: includes a lot of really bad things. So, OK, just
1:40
Speaker 1: a blanketed trigger warning. But I will trigger again when
1:43
Speaker 1: I get closer to the details of the crimes, because
1:47
Speaker 1: I did include those because they're kind of I guess important. Yeah.
1:52
Speaker 1: So Mary Bell was born on May twenty sixth, nineteen
1:56
Speaker 1: fifty seven, in Corbridge, United Kingdom. Her mother, Betty was
2:00
Speaker 1: not the greatest person. She was only seventeen when she
2:04
Speaker 1: had Mary, and Mary's father, Billy Bell, couldn't keep a
2:10
Speaker 1: job and had frequent run ins with the law. So
2:13
Speaker 1: they were just very volatile together and on their own
2:19
Speaker 1: and yeah, so you know that always affects the kids unfortunately.
2:24
Speaker 1: But eventually they did divorce, their marriage fall apart, and
2:29
Speaker 1: Mary was left to be cared for by Betty. Betty
2:32
Speaker 1: reportedly would often leave Mary with family members, just not
2:37
Speaker 1: really wanting to take responsibility for her child, and it's
2:41
Speaker 1: reported that one time she even tried to give Mary
2:43
Speaker 1: away to a random woman on the street. Oh my gosh,
2:48
Speaker 1: I know this, like poor little baby.
2:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
2:53
Speaker 1: Pretty apparent that Betty did not want much of anything
2:55
Speaker 1: to do with her child, and which is just tragic
3:01
Speaker 1: because like you know, you're supposed to have that maternal instinct,
3:03
Speaker 1: which I guess, like it doesn't always come natural to
3:06
Speaker 1: most women. But she was just very selfish and like
3:09
Speaker 1: just wanted I guess, her freedom, and she probably felt
3:11
Speaker 1: like some type of way because the dad had kind
3:14
Speaker 1: of relinquished all responsibility.
3:17
Speaker 2: Right, that's sad.
3:19
Speaker 3: I know.
3:20
Speaker 1: The home that Mary was raised in was filthy and
3:24
Speaker 1: it was run down, and the area that they lived
3:26
Speaker 1: in was not the best. It was actually referred to
3:28
Speaker 1: as like a traditional ghetto, like a you know, we
3:34
Speaker 1: say the ghetto now, but like it was a traditional
3:36
Speaker 1: ghetto like from.
3:37
Speaker 2: Back in the day.
3:38
Speaker 3: Right.
3:39
Speaker 1: So, as Mary grew from a toddler to a child,
3:42
Speaker 1: her behavior became very questionable. She was known to be
3:48
Speaker 1: a liar, a thief, and a troublemaker, which, like you
3:53
Speaker 1: know that that's what happens to kids. They especially in
3:56
Speaker 1: that situation, They you know, they act out, they rebel. Yeah, However,
4:01
Speaker 1: she was super smart, like she was said to be
4:04
Speaker 1: well beyond her age mentally, so that kind of made
4:10
Speaker 1: her really good at being sneaky and deceptive.
4:12
Speaker 3: Right. That makes me so sad because she could have
4:15
Speaker 3: like had.
4:16
Speaker 2: So much I know, I know.
4:19
Speaker 1: So Mary had met a, you know, a neighborhood friend
4:23
Speaker 1: named Nora Bell. They were no relation, they just happened
4:26
Speaker 1: to have the same last name, and Norma was two
4:29
Speaker 1: years older than Mary, and the two were known throughout
4:34
Speaker 1: the neighborhood for being like hateful and bullying the other children,
4:39
Speaker 1: which I kind of feel like as we get more
4:41
Speaker 1: into the story, you'll see that Mary was kind of
4:44
Speaker 1: like insolencing Norma to have that behavior. But obviously she
4:48
Speaker 1: had a little bit in herself anyway.
4:51
Speaker 3: Right, kids can influence each other so much, so easily, though,
4:55
Speaker 3: I know, especially at those age I mean they're like eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,
4:59
Speaker 3: you know, right. And there was even a report that
5:03
Speaker 3: Mary and Norma had been caught stealing money from a
5:06
Speaker 3: gas meter. I guess like it was like the honor system,
5:10
Speaker 3: so you like put.
5:10
Speaker 1: Your money in like a little you know, meter thing,
5:14
Speaker 1: and then they should get the gas. So they just
5:15
Speaker 1: like took all the money out of the gas meters,
5:18
Speaker 1: and both girls were actually arrested Oh wow. I was
5:22
Speaker 1: like crazy because they were like so young, but you know,
5:25
Speaker 1: that's kind of a big deal.
5:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:28
Speaker 1: The police asked Mary what happened, and Mary replied no comment.
5:33
Speaker 1: So yeah, at less than ten years old, she was
5:37
Speaker 1: already smart enough to know not to implicate herself for
5:40
Speaker 1: the crime.
5:41
Speaker 2: Wow.
5:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's pretty telling. That was kind of like
5:45
Speaker 1: the first sign that they had, Like the police had
5:47
Speaker 1: kind of seen like, Okay, this little girl's you gotta
5:50
Speaker 1: keep our eye on her.
5:52
Speaker 2: Right.
5:53
Speaker 1: So around this time as well, it was reported that Betty,
5:56
Speaker 1: which was Mary's mother, had also began to work in
5:59
Speaker 1: as a sex worker. I'm sure she was like, you know,
6:03
Speaker 1: trying to make ends meet, or maybe she just you know,
6:05
Speaker 1: whatever the situation was, and she would often bring strange
6:09
Speaker 1: men into the home with Mary there.
6:12
Speaker 2: Oh that's not good.
6:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a lot of speculation that Betty would dose
6:20
Speaker 1: Mary with like sleeping pills or some kind of relaxant
6:23
Speaker 1: to make her sleep or pass out so she wouldn't
6:25
Speaker 1: be in the way or hear her having sex with
6:27
Speaker 1: random men that were coming into their into their home.
6:31
Speaker 2: Wow.
6:33
Speaker 1: And there was also some other reports that said that
6:37
Speaker 1: maybe she got the idea for some of her crimes
6:40
Speaker 1: from the acts that would go on between her mother
6:43
Speaker 1: and the men. Oh so that was kind of interesting.
6:46
Speaker 1: That's that's never been proven one way or another, but
6:49
Speaker 1: I just thought it was interesting to add that little
6:51
Speaker 1: tidbit in there. Yeah, there also are reports that Mary
6:55
Speaker 1: would voluntarily sneak and take the pills herself, maybe to
7:00
Speaker 1: just the pain of her life or maybe just to
7:04
Speaker 1: I don't know really why she would do that, but
7:07
Speaker 1: there was since you know, some reports that she was
7:10
Speaker 1: doing that as well. So it was just a very
7:12
Speaker 1: volatile atmosphere for such a young, impressionable girl, like even
7:15
Speaker 1: though she was super smart, like, she's still nine years old,
7:19
Speaker 1: and that's just not a healthy environment for a nine
7:21
Speaker 1: year old.
7:22
Speaker 2: No, not at all.
7:24
Speaker 1: So, as I mentioned before, Mary and Norma were known
7:27
Speaker 1: for being the neighborhood bullies. And it is stated that
7:32
Speaker 1: Mary and Norma were playing with a three year old
7:34
Speaker 1: little boy and they led him to the roof of
7:38
Speaker 1: a Newcastle air raid shelter, which I'm not exactly sure
7:41
Speaker 1: what that is. I probably should have looked it up,
7:43
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's super important.
7:44
Speaker 3: Probably like like literally what it sounds like a shelter
7:49
Speaker 3: if there was an air raid, like oh, at times,
7:52
Speaker 3: you know, like.
7:53
Speaker 1: Planes coming over sometimes when things are super obvious, it's
7:57
Speaker 1: like right over my head.
7:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I only thought of that because
8:01
Speaker 3: my grandparents have talked about like the stuff like that
8:05
Speaker 3: happening when wars were going on and stuff. So I
8:08
Speaker 3: feel like like I put.
8:10
Speaker 1: To Okay, So they led him to the roof of
8:14
Speaker 1: this air RAAI shelter, and the boy accidentally fell from
8:18
Speaker 1: like one part of the roof to another part of
8:21
Speaker 1: the roof and he had been severely injured. But the
8:25
Speaker 1: police were quick to rule this as an accident, and
8:29
Speaker 1: Mary and Nora were not further looked into, which I
8:33
Speaker 1: can I mean, I can see, you know, there's no
8:35
Speaker 1: witnesses to say that they pushed him or you know whatever.
8:40
Speaker 1: But again, this is just one more little notch for
8:43
Speaker 1: them to keep an eye on things.
8:45
Speaker 2: Right.
8:46
Speaker 1: Another incident, Mary attacked a girl in her class there
8:49
Speaker 1: I guess they were on the playground. Her name was Pauline,
8:52
Speaker 1: and Mary began to strangle her.
8:56
Speaker 2: Oh my god, like yeah.
8:58
Speaker 1: Luckily though nor saw this, and you know, she saw
9:02
Speaker 1: that things were getting kind of out of hand, and
9:04
Speaker 1: she broke the two girls up, which I thought was good.
9:07
Speaker 1: You know, it was trying to be a good frank.
9:09
Speaker 1: She didn't want Mary to get in trouble.
9:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like Norma has a little bit like yeah, exactly.
9:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again Mary was let off easy, and this
9:21
Speaker 1: incident was chalked up to a playyard fight or disagreement. Again,
9:25
Speaker 1: they're nine years old. Like, I don't know the fact
9:28
Speaker 1: that she was strangling her, that would be a huge
9:31
Speaker 1: like red flag for me, right, like as a teacher
9:34
Speaker 1: or a parent or the police or whatever. But you know,
9:38
Speaker 1: she's nine.
9:39
Speaker 3: I know, Like I get that. Nobody wants to believe
9:42
Speaker 3: that like a young kid like that could be doing something.
9:47
Speaker 3: But it seems like at this point there's been a
9:50
Speaker 3: lot of different things happening, so you'd think that at
9:54
Speaker 3: least like, yeah, you put her in therapy or.
9:57
Speaker 1: Right, But we have to remember, this is the fifty
10:00
Speaker 1: ease or maybe actually I guess it's the sixties by now, right, Okay,
10:05
Speaker 1: because she was born in fifty seven, So yeah, it's
10:08
Speaker 1: like the sixties by now. So there's not you know,
10:11
Speaker 1: people don't go to therapy. There's no no one to
10:14
Speaker 1: talk to, like, you know, you might be able to
10:16
Speaker 1: talk to your teacher or something like that. But you know, sadly,
10:21
Speaker 1: there was just not any outlets for her to get
10:23
Speaker 1: help really. Plus they were living in like a low
10:26
Speaker 1: income area, like kids were kind of left to take
10:31
Speaker 1: care of theirselves and fen for theirselves.
10:33
Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, and it.
10:36
Speaker 3: Sounds like her mom wasn't super president either, So no,
10:39
Speaker 3: she was not.
10:40
Speaker 2: She was.
10:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was not a good mom. It's kind of
10:43
Speaker 1: sad because like she was trying to pawn Mary off on,
10:47
Speaker 1: you know, relatives, and like I wish that that would
10:50
Speaker 1: have like happened, because then she may have had a
10:52
Speaker 1: better outcome, but then like she would come back and
10:55
Speaker 1: be like, no, I want her back. So it's like
10:57
Speaker 1: very you know, yeah, that kind of damage for a child,
11:02
Speaker 1: Like I don't want you. Oh just kidding, I want you.
11:04
Speaker 1: I don't want you.
11:05
Speaker 2: I want you.
11:06
Speaker 1: And there are like some reports which I'll get into
11:09
Speaker 1: a little bit later that says that like her mom
11:12
Speaker 1: would like, for lack of better terminology, like pimper out
11:17
Speaker 1: my gosh. And so it makes me wonder if like
11:20
Speaker 1: that's why her mom was like never mind, I want
11:21
Speaker 1: her back, because like she's lode value to me. Which
11:25
Speaker 1: is like, so fucked up for a mom to do that,
11:28
Speaker 1: but it happens. So this last incident indicates to me
11:34
Speaker 1: an escalation, which is never a good sign in anyone,
11:37
Speaker 1: but especially a child. Anytime there's escalation, that usually means
11:41
Speaker 1: that they're getting more brave and more ballsy and then
11:43
Speaker 1: they're going to do something worse.
11:45
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:46
Speaker 1: So on May twenty fifth, Mary is only ten years
11:51
Speaker 1: old now, two little boys were playing in an old
11:54
Speaker 1: abandoned house in the neighborhood because there were several of those,
12:00
Speaker 1: and they were I guess like slowly trying to clean
12:02
Speaker 1: up the neighborhood, but they just didn't have a lot
12:04
Speaker 1: of money to be able to do that. So there
12:06
Speaker 1: was still a lot of abandoned houses and a lot
12:08
Speaker 1: of the kids would play in those houses. But these
12:11
Speaker 1: two little boys were playing in this old abandoned house
12:14
Speaker 1: and they stumbled across the body of four year old
12:17
Speaker 1: Martin Brown.
12:19
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
12:20
Speaker 1: So at first glance, there was no obvious sign of
12:24
Speaker 1: a cause of death. He had a little bit of
12:26
Speaker 1: blood around his mouth, but that could have you know,
12:29
Speaker 1: been because he fell or choked on something or you
12:34
Speaker 1: know whatever. So police again assumed it was an accident,
12:38
Speaker 1: and they actually at one point said that he might
12:42
Speaker 1: have died from fright, which like I don't know why
12:46
Speaker 1: they thought that, but maybe because he was so young,
12:49
Speaker 1: and like they thought maybe he got scared by something
12:51
Speaker 1: in the house and he just huh, you know. And
12:55
Speaker 1: there was also an empty pill bottle close by, so
12:58
Speaker 1: they thought like maybe he had gotten his hands on
13:01
Speaker 1: the pills and consume them and pass away from that,
13:04
Speaker 1: and that could kind of, I guess indicate like why
13:07
Speaker 1: there would be a little bit of blood around his mouth.
13:09
Speaker 1: I don't know, but there was not really any suspicion
13:13
Speaker 1: of foul play at the time, so in their mind
13:16
Speaker 1: it was kind of like open and shut, no investigation
13:19
Speaker 1: was really needed. Okay, but it is good to note
13:23
Speaker 1: that Mary and Norma were seen walking into the house
13:27
Speaker 1: after the boy's body had been discovered, but they were
13:30
Speaker 1: told to leave by police. Interesting, so again, you know,
13:36
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on that because like why were they there?
13:38
Speaker 1: You know, I mean a lot of kids were around, but.
13:42
Speaker 2: Still why were they there?
13:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, And on top of like all the other stuff
13:45
Speaker 3: that they've been a part of, like right, a little sketchy.
13:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, So to make matters worse and to pull poor
13:52
Speaker 1: Salt on an already big, gaping open wound. Mary went
13:58
Speaker 1: to the home of Martin Brown, knocked on the door
14:01
Speaker 1: and asked if she could see Martin. His mother replied,
14:07
Speaker 1: Martin is dead, and Mary said, I know, but I
14:09
Speaker 1: would like to see him. Martin's mother, of course, was
14:13
Speaker 1: devastated and made his father tell Mary to get off
14:17
Speaker 1: their property. And it's even rumored that after she asked
14:21
Speaker 1: to see Martin the first time and his mother replied
14:24
Speaker 1: that he was deceased, she asked to see him in
14:27
Speaker 1: his coffin, implying exactly implying that she thought he was
14:33
Speaker 1: there in the coffin, which to me kind of says
14:37
Speaker 1: like she really had no concept of what happens after death,
14:43
Speaker 1: like she you know, she's said to be this like
14:46
Speaker 1: really smart, educated girl, but at the end of the day,
14:49
Speaker 1: she's just ten years old.
14:50
Speaker 2: You know that's true.
14:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, But there's one thing that we cannot deny, and
14:54
Speaker 1: that she is very cool because she had to have
14:57
Speaker 1: known that that would affect his mother in some way
15:02
Speaker 1: to ask to see his body. So a few months later,
15:05
Speaker 1: a local nursery was broken into and vandalized. It was
15:09
Speaker 1: then and there they found some letters, almost like confession letters,
15:13
Speaker 1: confessing to killing Martin Brown.
15:17
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
15:18
Speaker 1: One letter stated I murder so I can come back,
15:23
Speaker 1: which we don't know what that means, but okay. Another
15:29
Speaker 1: said we did murder Martin Brown, fuck off, you bastard,
15:36
Speaker 1: and a third said, fuck off, we murder. Watch out
15:43
Speaker 1: fanny and faggot, which I don't really know what that.
15:47
Speaker 1: I mean, I know what the derogatory word means, and
15:51
Speaker 1: like I know what fanny can mean, but I'm not
15:54
Speaker 1: really sure like what contexts they were trying to get
15:57
Speaker 1: across there, And there was a lot of like misspellings,
16:02
Speaker 1: so they you know, assumed that they were written by
16:05
Speaker 1: children or that they were like some kind of joke.
16:07
Speaker 1: But they also were accompanied with some explicit drawings, and
16:13
Speaker 1: one of the drawings depicted a young boy in the
16:17
Speaker 1: same position that Martin had been found in. So because
16:21
Speaker 1: of that alone, they took that into consideration and they
16:25
Speaker 1: decided to keep that as possible evidence, and they started
16:29
Speaker 1: to kind of suspect that maybe whoever did this could
16:33
Speaker 1: be responsible for Martin's death, and maybe his death was
16:35
Speaker 1: not an accident.
16:37
Speaker 2: Wow, good for them, Yeah, I.
16:39
Speaker 1: Mean, it's kind of like, to you long enough, but
16:43
Speaker 1: at least they yeah, put some pieces together.
16:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:49
Speaker 1: So the nursery after the incident, they had installed an
16:53
Speaker 1: alarm just in case the perpetrators decided to come back,
16:57
Speaker 1: and just as they suspected, they returned. Mary and Norma
17:01
Speaker 1: were caught, and Mary denied that they had ever been
17:03
Speaker 1: there before, but once again, no charges were brought forth.
17:09
Speaker 1: So I guess they got away with a slap on
17:11
Speaker 1: the wrist. The only thing I can think is because
17:13
Speaker 1: they're so young, Because you're, like, there's no way that
17:16
Speaker 1: this ten year old little girl killed this four year
17:18
Speaker 1: old little boy. Yeah, you know, like you just like
17:21
Speaker 1: you said at the very band, like you can't even
17:23
Speaker 1: imagine a ten year old being a strangler or like strangler.
17:27
Speaker 1: But like, I guess that what they were thinking. Yeah,
17:30
Speaker 1: that's probably what they were thinking too.
17:33
Speaker 2: Wow.
17:34
Speaker 1: So it had been a couple of months since the
17:37
Speaker 1: first attack on Martin and it was July thirty first,
17:41
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. And I'm gonna go ahead and give
17:44
Speaker 1: you that other trigger warning because this part is a
17:46
Speaker 1: little bit more explicit and gory and just triggering. A
17:55
Speaker 1: three year old little boy named Brian Howe went missing.
18:00
Speaker 1: He was last seen in front of his home playing,
18:03
Speaker 1: and it's reported that Mary and Norma were also seen
18:06
Speaker 1: there at one point in time playing with this little
18:10
Speaker 1: boy and one of his siblings. So Brian was found strangled.
18:18
Speaker 1: He had several puncture wounds on his body, his hair
18:22
Speaker 1: had been cut, and it appeared that someone had carved
18:26
Speaker 1: the letter M into his abdomen and his genitals had
18:31
Speaker 1: been mutilated. Yeah, and this was like super like I
18:36
Speaker 1: had already heard this story before, but it was like
18:39
Speaker 1: super hard for me to like reread that, especially because
18:43
Speaker 1: I have a three year old little boy and like
18:44
Speaker 1: just the thought of that being him, like was just heartbreaking.
18:48
Speaker 1: And I just like feel so pil for that mother,
18:51
Speaker 1: especially because that's that's a big escalation, you know, to
18:56
Speaker 1: do all of that. Police immediately launched and investigation, and
19:01
Speaker 1: like I said before, had opened up the case of
19:04
Speaker 1: Martin Brown too, since the deaths were so close together
19:08
Speaker 1: and both the boys were so young, it kind of
19:10
Speaker 1: seemed like the same you know, m O, right, and
19:14
Speaker 1: they you know, we're all in the same area. So
19:17
Speaker 1: police were finally starting to hone in on Mary and Norma.
19:20
Speaker 1: Both girls had denied any involvement and started accusing other
19:24
Speaker 1: boys in the neighborhood for these heinous crimes. But because
19:29
Speaker 1: police knew that Mary and Norma had written the letter,
19:32
Speaker 1: because they were the ones who broke into the nursery,
19:35
Speaker 1: and they were both seen with or around the crime
19:40
Speaker 1: scenes of both boys, they were finally able to charge
19:43
Speaker 1: them with the crime. Wow, with both crimes, which is like, yeah,
19:48
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's always obvious to us when
19:50
Speaker 1: we're like reading it because we're we know like what happens,
19:54
Speaker 1: or like, you know, it just makes more sense. But
19:56
Speaker 1: I guess like when you're in it, you might not
19:58
Speaker 1: see the big giant red lags. But yeah, So evidently
20:03
Speaker 1: when they charged Mary, she said, that's all right by me.
20:08
Speaker 1: So this little girl is just like yeah, she just
20:13
Speaker 1: I mean, like they said, she's mature beyond her years.
20:15
Speaker 1: It seems like and like kind.
20:18
Speaker 2: Of like the.
20:21
Speaker 1: No emotion like sociopathy, you know, or psychopathy or psychopathy.
20:27
Speaker 1: I think, I guess that's how you say it. So
20:31
Speaker 1: the trial started in December of nineteen sixty eight. They
20:36
Speaker 1: realized right away that these girls needed help and not
20:39
Speaker 1: just to be punished, which is which is very true
20:42
Speaker 1: of a child, you know, yeah, just sending them off
20:45
Speaker 1: the jail is not always the best like punishment, I guess.
20:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:49
Speaker 1: A child killing another child is very disturbing and psychologically abnormal.
20:54
Speaker 1: It was found out that Normal was the one who
20:56
Speaker 1: had written the letters. Interesting Okay, yeah, I found that
21:00
Speaker 1: interesting too because I was like, okay, because I was thinking, like,
21:03
Speaker 1: for sure it was Mary, you know. Yeah, but it
21:06
Speaker 1: seemed that Mary was the one who did the actual killings.
21:09
Speaker 2: Okay.
21:10
Speaker 1: The carving and Brian's stomach seemed to have originally been
21:14
Speaker 1: an inn that was turned into an M. So there
21:18
Speaker 1: is speculation that maybe Norma started to carve her initial
21:22
Speaker 1: into his stomach, but then Mary either got jealous because
21:27
Speaker 1: she wanted the you know, quote unquote credit for the
21:30
Speaker 1: murder because she actually is the one who strangled him. Yeah,
21:33
Speaker 1: so she turned it into an M. Surprisingly, Norma was
21:37
Speaker 1: found not guilty due to the fact that she seemed
21:40
Speaker 1: confused and not mentally competent.
21:44
Speaker 2: Okay.
21:44
Speaker 1: It also appeared that she may have been coerced into
21:48
Speaker 1: helping with these crimes and not fully understanding exactly what
21:51
Speaker 1: they had done, which, like I.
21:53
Speaker 2: Said before, okay, so I could see that.
21:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, like she I fully believe that she knew that
21:59
Speaker 1: they were like, unless she had some kind of like
22:02
Speaker 1: mental disability or something like that. It's never stated that
22:05
Speaker 1: she actually, like you know, was diagnosed with something like that. Right,
22:09
Speaker 1: But she was a little older than Norma and she
22:12
Speaker 1: just wasn't I guess as smart and like they said,
22:15
Speaker 1: is mentally competent. So they let her go. Wow, which
22:19
Speaker 1: I mean, I kind of feel like she she deserved
22:21
Speaker 1: a little bit of something because obviously she was involved.
22:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was still involved in something.
22:27
Speaker 2: Right.
22:28
Speaker 1: However, eleven year old Mary was not as lucky. She
22:32
Speaker 1: was convicted of two counts of manslaughter and she was
22:35
Speaker 1: sent to Redwood, which is a juvenile facility. The court
22:40
Speaker 1: appointed psychiatrists described Mary as displaying classics symptoms of psychopathy,
22:48
Speaker 1: which we can already tell that was what was going
22:50
Speaker 1: on there, just the fact that she was, like Nolan,
22:53
Speaker 1: void of you know, guilt or anything like that. Yeah,
22:57
Speaker 1: she was only sentenced to twelve years, which I don't know.
23:01
Speaker 1: It's hard for me because I'm like, she's eleven, like
23:04
Speaker 1: you know, But it's also like the United Kingdom in
23:07
Speaker 1: the sixties, Like I don't know, maybe things are just different,
23:12
Speaker 1: but still it's like the like the Bathtub Girls they
23:17
Speaker 1: covered and they were sentenced like.
23:19
Speaker 3: Five years, but that was like they killed. It was
23:22
Speaker 3: like one targeted kill. And this is like clearly more
23:27
Speaker 3: than that. It's not just like they had somebody where
23:30
Speaker 3: they were like I want to kill this person.
23:32
Speaker 2: It's like it's she. It was a pattern.
23:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she would have killed more people if she
23:38
Speaker 1: would not have gotten caught. I fully believe that.
23:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's that's I think, Like, I don't know,
23:45
Speaker 3: I think it should have been more time, for sure,
23:47
Speaker 3: I do too, I think it should have been longer.
23:49
Speaker 1: But I understand why they did the smaller time just
23:54
Speaker 1: because like the shorter time period because she was a child,
23:57
Speaker 1: but I mean twelve years she was still like barely
24:00
Speaker 1: an adult when she got let out.
24:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:03
Speaker 1: It's reported that while Mary was locked away, her mother
24:07
Speaker 1: sold stories about her to the press and gave them
24:11
Speaker 1: writings that were supposedly written by Mary, which is like
24:16
Speaker 1: just so again just so fucked up and just proving
24:19
Speaker 1: further like what a piece of shit her mom was. Yeah,
24:23
Speaker 1: and that's kind of why do believe like some of
24:25
Speaker 1: the you know, reports about her, like possibly like I'm
24:29
Speaker 1: trying to think of another word besides like pimping her out,
24:32
Speaker 1: because that's just that just sounds so bad. But exploiting
24:35
Speaker 1: her yeah, for money, you know whatever, It's just I mean,
24:41
Speaker 1: that's basically what she was doing here too.
24:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think that her mom played a big
24:47
Speaker 3: part in the person she became and locked up her
24:51
Speaker 3: childhood basically.
24:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I found myself. You know, I have a
24:56
Speaker 1: degree in psychology, so of course I was asking myself, like,
24:59
Speaker 1: why would Mary the things that she did? Was it
25:02
Speaker 1: a classic case of nature versus nurture? You know, because
25:05
Speaker 1: of how she was treated and raised by her mother,
25:08
Speaker 1: you know, claiming that she was physically and sexually abused
25:11
Speaker 1: as a child, which doesn't give her like a free pass.
25:14
Speaker 1: Of course, lots of people are abused and they don't
25:17
Speaker 1: go on to murder people, like we always say that,
25:22
Speaker 1: but when you're like from the very beginning, like from birth,
25:28
Speaker 1: she was neglected, she was given away and taken back,
25:31
Speaker 1: given away and taken back like that does so much
25:36
Speaker 1: damage to a child. And I just I fully believe
25:41
Speaker 1: that her mother was to blame for why she did
25:43
Speaker 1: the things that she did because she was not an adult.
25:45
Speaker 1: She was not Yes, she knew like quote unquote right
25:48
Speaker 1: from wrong. But she was still a child and did
25:51
Speaker 1: not even understand like what happens to a body after
25:54
Speaker 1: it dies, like you bury it in the ground. They're
25:55
Speaker 1: not just hanging out in the house with you forever,
25:59
Speaker 1: you know.
25:59
Speaker 3: She's I feel like like she's not even close to
26:02
Speaker 3: being an adult. Like maybe thirteen fourteen, you're like, Okay,
26:06
Speaker 3: maybe they have a little more sense, but she's not.
26:08
Speaker 3: And I definitely feel like it's I mean, I'm sure
26:11
Speaker 3: there was some nature in her that, yeah, that was
26:16
Speaker 3: going to do this, but I definitely think this was
26:19
Speaker 3: mostly nurture.
26:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too. I think that's why the court
26:23
Speaker 1: like took it into considerato when they, you know, gave
26:27
Speaker 1: her her sentence was for that reason.
26:29
Speaker 3: But I feel like it should have been like twenty years,
26:33
Speaker 3: but with like the possibility of parole in ten years
26:37
Speaker 3: or something like that, like or like lifetime parole right exactly,
26:42
Speaker 3: like to see if she was actually transformed, because as
26:45
Speaker 3: much as it's sad that like she was affected by
26:49
Speaker 3: her mother, it's still she still did this stuff.
26:53
Speaker 1: Yep, and had the craving and the wanting to do
26:57
Speaker 1: it again right and escalating like it each time at
27:01
Speaker 1: escally like, first it was the little boy that fell
27:03
Speaker 1: off the roof. Then it was the little boy who
27:06
Speaker 1: she strangled and it was an accident. Then it was
27:10
Speaker 1: like all the mutilation and you know, more violent each time.
27:14
Speaker 1: So so Mary was let out of prison when she
27:18
Speaker 1: was twenty three years old. She was granted anonymity. I
27:22
Speaker 1: always want to say, I don't know what I want
27:24
Speaker 1: to say, but that's not the word I want to
27:25
Speaker 1: say when I read that, which, if you don't know,
27:28
Speaker 1: is basically like a new.
27:29
Speaker 2: Start, a new life.
27:30
Speaker 1: They like, Wow, they make all your information private, like
27:34
Speaker 1: your address, they can't find you, you know, all the things. Yeah,
27:38
Speaker 1: which is like, you know, if you really are reformed
27:41
Speaker 1: and you're trying to start any likely, I agree with that.
27:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
27:44
Speaker 1: She actually went on to have a daughter of her
27:46
Speaker 1: own in nineteen eighty four. Wow, and Mary went on
27:51
Speaker 1: to fight for her daughter's anonymity as well, because until
27:55
Speaker 1: reporters found out her location, her daughter had no idea
27:58
Speaker 1: about her mother's past. But she got exposed, which I
28:02
Speaker 1: don't know, Like, I don't know if I could tell
28:03
Speaker 1: my kid that either. But it's kind of like one
28:06
Speaker 1: of those things. Once they come of a certain age,
28:08
Speaker 1: they should probably know that you like murder two people, yeah,
28:11
Speaker 1: to children.
28:12
Speaker 3: It's also like it depends. I don't think that it
28:16
Speaker 3: was fair that that she had to find out like that,
28:20
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I think I think Mary should have told
28:22
Speaker 3: her at some point. But yeah, and you know, if
28:24
Speaker 3: Mary really is trying to start over and is a
28:26
Speaker 3: good person now, like, it sucks that you know that
28:30
Speaker 3: had been following it at the same time you did it.
28:33
Speaker 1: So yeah, exactly. That's kind of how I feel too,
28:36
Speaker 1: is like you did it, Like, yeah, okay, your privacy
28:39
Speaker 1: should be you know, so people don't like stalk you
28:42
Speaker 1: and try to kill you.
28:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're.
28:44
Speaker 1: Still responsible for your actions and unfortunately, the consequences of
28:48
Speaker 1: your actions will follow you for the rest of your life.
28:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you you got pretty damn lucky with only
28:54
Speaker 3: being in jail for twelve years and getting out and
28:57
Speaker 3: having anonymity as much as you can and stuff like that,
28:59
Speaker 3: So I would say it's pretty fair exactly.
29:03
Speaker 1: So they went to court and their anonymity was further
29:06
Speaker 1: granted and the Mary Belt Order was officially started, which
29:09
Speaker 1: protects victims and you know, people who commit these crimes
29:16
Speaker 1: their anonymity until they're dying.
29:18
Speaker 2: Day which wow.
29:20
Speaker 1: I mean again, people can still figure stuff out, especially
29:23
Speaker 1: in today's day and age, like there's so much stuff
29:26
Speaker 1: you can find out on the internet. In two thousand
29:28
Speaker 1: and nine, it's also reported that Mary became a grandmother.
29:31
Speaker 1: So from all accounts, did Mary go on to live
29:36
Speaker 1: a normal life. It seems that she did. She did
29:39
Speaker 1: have a couple of run ins with the law after
29:41
Speaker 1: her release from prison, but for smaller crimes such as
29:44
Speaker 1: like petty theft. But there's one thing that we know
29:46
Speaker 1: for certain, and that's that Martin and Brian's family and
29:49
Speaker 1: loved ones will not go on to have normal lives.
29:52
Speaker 1: They will never see their sons, grandsons and brothers have
29:55
Speaker 1: children or grandchildren like Mary has had the opportunity to do.
30:01
Speaker 1: And that is the case of one of UK's most
30:04
Speaker 1: notorious child murders, because there is more than one Mary Bill.
30:09
Speaker 3: Yeah wow, So that's so it's so heartbreaking, I mean
30:14
Speaker 3: for the victims of course, and also for her, Like
30:18
Speaker 3: I don't feel bad for the her that did it.
30:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't know, like it's you know, it is.
30:26
Speaker 1: It is sad because she was so young, like like
30:29
Speaker 1: you said, if she was like thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, I
30:32
Speaker 1: probably like would not feel bad for her at all,
30:36
Speaker 1: but just thinking back to when I was like nine,
30:38
Speaker 1: ten eleven, like you know nothing, like you're just like
30:42
Speaker 1: this little creature that's just like like you don't even
30:45
Speaker 1: know how to take care of yourself, and like she
30:47
Speaker 1: was forced to take care of herself. She had like
30:49
Speaker 1: the worst mom, like her dad ran out on her.
30:53
Speaker 1: I guess she had some other family members, but I
30:55
Speaker 1: don't know how involved they were allowed to be in
30:57
Speaker 1: her life. And it is just it's very tragic. But again,
31:02
Speaker 1: it doesn't excuse her killing two innocent little babies, like
31:06
Speaker 1: they were literally four and three years old, like they
31:09
Speaker 1: they did not deserve for their life to be cut
31:11
Speaker 1: so short.
31:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
31:14
Speaker 1: So it's very hard. But you know, it's never like
31:18
Speaker 1: black and white. It's always there's always lots of gray
31:21
Speaker 1: area when it comes to cases like this. So very true,
31:25
Speaker 1: but that is my case for this week. I'm not
31:29
Speaker 1: gonna say I hope you enjoyed it, because no one
31:31
Speaker 1: should enjoy it, but I hope you learned something new
31:35
Speaker 1: and maybe learned about a new prolific serial killer that
31:38
Speaker 1: you may not have known about.
31:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hope you like found it interesting psychologically interesting?
31:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
31:48
Speaker 1: I know, I sure did. I was like, I'm always torn,
31:52
Speaker 1: like should I dive into the psychology of all these people?
31:54
Speaker 1: But then I would probably be here for another like
31:56
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, and I mean today, I guess like, well,
31:59
Speaker 1: we don't really have time for it today, but you know,
32:01
Speaker 1: other times we may have time for it. But I
32:04
Speaker 1: was like, Noah, just stick to the case. I definitely
32:07
Speaker 1: into it a little bit. Yeah, it's so interesting to me,
32:10
Speaker 1: Like that's a big thing, a big passion of mine.
32:14
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know.
32:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you should whenever you want to do it.
32:19
Speaker 1: I will definitely be posting. Obviously, I will not post
32:22
Speaker 1: anything that's graphic on Instagram, but I will be posting
32:24
Speaker 1: pictures from the case, like she was so tiny and cute,
32:28
Speaker 1: like when she was little. It's so sad that you
32:31
Speaker 1: can't even imagine her doing this, right. But make sure
32:35
Speaker 1: you're following us over on Instagram at Inhuman Podcasts, Underscore podcast.
32:39
Speaker 1: Excuse me, and we always say this, but make sure
32:43
Speaker 1: you rate and review us on iTunes or Apple podcasts.
32:47
Speaker 1: I don't think you can. Can you rate on Spotify?
32:50
Speaker 3: I don't think so. But you can like follow us
32:53
Speaker 3: so that ye'll be like notified, subscribe to us, follow us.
32:57
Speaker 1: All that helps us get pushed out more and helps
33:00
Speaker 1: us reach more people. And that's why we're here. And
33:06
Speaker 1: we just want to thank you guys so much for
33:07
Speaker 1: listening and we'll catch you next time. Until then, keep
33:12
Speaker 1: it human, ye,