Latest / Sharri / Sharri special edition: Josh Frydenberg extended interview

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Sharri special edition: Josh Frydenberg extended interview · Sharri

0:06
Speaker 1: Good evening. He's out of politics, but his name is
0:09
Speaker 1: once again dominating the conversation. Josh Frydenberg is at the
0:14
Speaker 1: centre of mounting speculation about a dramatic political comeback. The reason?
0:20
Speaker 1: The release of his highly anticipated memoir, A Grateful Son,
0:25
Speaker 1: published tomorrow. It's a deeply personal account of his remarkable
0:30
Speaker 1: family history, his life and his time at the highest
0:34
Speaker 1: levels of Australian politics. But it's also being viewed as
0:38
Speaker 1: something more, a manifesto for his political return. Well, tonight
0:44
Speaker 1: you can hear from the man himself. I sat down
0:47
Speaker 1: with a former treasurer for his most in-depth and revealing
0:52
Speaker 1: interview yet. It's full of insights, political revelations and and
0:57
Speaker 1: juicy behind-the-scenes detail. Here it is. Josh Frydenberg, thank you
1:04
Speaker 1: so much for joining us to talk about your life
1:07
Speaker 1: and your autobiography, A Grateful Son. Why A Grateful Son?
1:13
Speaker 2: I'm grateful to my parents for giving me a warm
1:16
Speaker 2: environment in which to grow up in and every opportunity
1:20
Speaker 2: as a young kid. I'm grateful to the community that
1:24
Speaker 2: I'm proud to be a part of and I'm grateful
1:26
Speaker 2: to our country. not just for the opportunity it gave
1:30
Speaker 2: my mother as a refugee and my grandparents to escape
1:33
Speaker 2: the horrors of the Holocaust and to be given every
1:37
Speaker 2: opportunity here in Australia, but also for what I've been
1:41
Speaker 2: able to achieve in this country because this country is
1:45
Speaker 2: not colourblind.
1:46
Speaker 1: Your relationship with Scott Morrison, for a time it was
1:50
Speaker 1: a great relationship. You were living with him at the lodge.
1:53
Speaker 1: You were roommates making spaghetti, eating pavlova.
1:57
Speaker 2: We spent a couple of weeks together at the lodge and,
2:00
Speaker 2: you know, I talk about that in the book and
2:02
Speaker 2: it was important, I think, because we were there in Canberra.
2:07
Speaker 2: It was pretty lonely. We were away from our families
2:09
Speaker 2: and we also had work to do. And when you
2:12
Speaker 2: were eating together after a long day and playing pool
2:15
Speaker 2: or playing table tennis or whatever the case may be.
2:18
Speaker 1: Watching Yes Minister.
2:18
Speaker 2: Watching Yes Minister.
2:19
Speaker 1: Roaring with laughter.
2:20
Speaker 2: Roaring with laughter. We actually got some work done between
2:24
Speaker 2: all of that too. But... What I do say about
2:28
Speaker 2: that time is, yeah, he and I did work very
2:33
Speaker 2: effectively together as Prime Minister and Treasurer, and nothing can
2:38
Speaker 2: take away from Scott Morrison's achievement in leading us to
2:43
Speaker 2: victory in the 2019 election. Nothing can take away from
2:47
Speaker 2: him the very strong economic and health outcomes that we
2:52
Speaker 2: achieved after COVID, which have been the envy of many
2:56
Speaker 2: other countries in the world, and nothing could take away
2:59
Speaker 2: the achievement of AUKUS too, which now has bipartisan support.
3:03
Speaker 1: We all know now, after the fact that Morrison swore
3:06
Speaker 1: himself into five ministries, you say that up until that
3:11
Speaker 1: point you had believed the loyalty with him was a
3:13
Speaker 1: two-way street, but this revelation changed that.
3:17
Speaker 2: Look, I think it blindsided a lot of people, not
3:20
Speaker 2: just me. I mean, you've heard Karen Andrews as Home
3:22
Speaker 2: Affairs Minister and Matthias Cormann as finance minister. They never
3:26
Speaker 2: expected that their ministries would be also sworn in by
3:30
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison.
3:31
Speaker 1: But this hurt you personally. You felt it was a betrayal.
3:34
Speaker 2: I felt undermined by it. And I made my concerns
3:38
Speaker 2: known at the time. What struck me as odd, to
3:40
Speaker 2: say the least, was when I spoke to Morrison about
3:44
Speaker 2: it after it was made public that he'd sworn himself
3:47
Speaker 2: into Treasury. He said to me, if he had his
3:50
Speaker 2: time again, he would have done the same. And I
3:52
Speaker 2: couldn't believe that.
3:52
Speaker 1: Do you think that's something the Australian public could have
3:56
Speaker 1: been told about at the time?
3:57
Speaker 2: If it was public at the time then I think
4:00
Speaker 2: there would have been a different response. I think from
4:04
Speaker 2: the party room and from the colleagues there would have
4:06
Speaker 2: been uproar and it would have been very problematic for
4:12
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister to hold the team together after that.
4:15
Speaker 1: As it was during that period, some of your colleagues
4:18
Speaker 1: in late 2021 were urging you to challenge Scott Morrison.
4:24
Speaker 2: Well, the Prime Minister's approval ratings had fallen. We were
4:28
Speaker 2: behind in the polls. We were dealing with another outbreak
4:32
Speaker 2: of COVID. And so a number of colleagues had spoken
4:36
Speaker 2: to me about potentially challenging for the Prime Ministership. But
4:40
Speaker 2: it was not something I wanted to do and it
4:42
Speaker 2: was not something I was going to do.
4:45
Speaker 1: You did think seriously about it, though.
4:47
Speaker 2: I didn't to the point of counting the numbers and
4:51
Speaker 2: getting active like that. I heard people's complaints and issues
4:57
Speaker 2: that they raised about the direction we were going in.
5:02
Speaker 2: We'd obviously had a budget still to deliver in early
5:06
Speaker 2: 2022 before the election. Many people had written us off
5:10
Speaker 2: as well in 2019, yet we came from behind to
5:14
Speaker 2: win that election. but it was not meant to be.
5:16
Speaker 2: We were going for a fourth term and the sum
5:19
Speaker 2: was sitting on our government.
5:20
Speaker 1: You considered it so seriously, though, that you did seek
5:24
Speaker 1: the counsel of Dennis Richardson, very experienced diplomat, former ASIO boss,
5:31
Speaker 1: former ambassador to Washington.
5:34
Speaker 2: Former chief of staff to Bob Hawke. And so he's
5:36
Speaker 2: somebody who had seen leadership turmoil up close. And his
5:41
Speaker 2: advice was pretty clear that if you challenge a Prime Minister,
5:46
Speaker 2: it can poison your own Prime Ministership if you're successful.
5:50
Speaker 2: He'd also pointed to the difference between the Hawke-Keating time
5:54
Speaker 2: and the time that I was now Treasurer to Morrison,
5:57
Speaker 2: in that he had said Hawke had not kept his
6:02
Speaker 2: pact with Keating and he'd been in the job for
6:04
Speaker 2: nearly a decade.
6:05
Speaker 1: Had you known about the secret ministries, do you think
6:09
Speaker 1: that may have changed your calculation about whether to challenge?
6:12
Speaker 2: Well, I think for other colleagues it would have created
6:15
Speaker 2: its own dynamic and I think it would have been
6:18
Speaker 2: very difficult for the Prime Minister to keep the team
6:21
Speaker 2: together if those secret ministries had become public at the time.
6:25
Speaker 1: They would have urged you to take on the top job.
6:29
Speaker 2: Well, that's about me. I think it's more about people
6:33
Speaker 2: would not have been happy with the status quo. They
6:35
Speaker 2: would not have been happy with the explanation either.
6:38
Speaker 1: The voter frustration in 2022 during the election campaign became visceral,
6:44
Speaker 1: you say in the book, against Morrison. Do you believe
6:48
Speaker 1: that as leader, the 2022 outcome could have been different
6:52
Speaker 1: had you been leader going into that election?
6:55
Speaker 2: I'm not going to speculate about that.
6:57
Speaker 1: You must have thought about it.
6:58
Speaker 2: No, well, I think the die was cast for our government.
7:02
Speaker 2: I take my fair share of responsibility for that loss.
7:04
Speaker 2: I was the deputy leader and the treasurer. And we
7:07
Speaker 2: failed to make a sufficient case to re-elect our government.
7:11
Speaker 2: And even though we'd come through successfully COVID with an
7:17
Speaker 2: economic and health outcome that was the envy of many
7:21
Speaker 2: countries in the world, people felt that it was time
7:26
Speaker 2: for a change. And so I accept the public's verdict.
7:31
Speaker 2: The public get it right. And I accept their verdict,
7:34
Speaker 2: be it in Kyong or federally.
7:37
Speaker 1: I always find that phrase interesting when people say the
7:39
Speaker 1: public get it right. Do you think they got it
7:41
Speaker 1: right with Albanese?
7:43
Speaker 2: Well, we didn't make the case in 2025 sufficiently to
7:48
Speaker 2: win the public's support. I mean, they're the ones with
7:51
Speaker 2: the vote. We're the ones seeking their vote. If they
7:55
Speaker 2: choose not to vote for us, we've done something wrong.
7:57
Speaker 1: You do write, though, that a lot of the polling showed...
8:01
Speaker 1: that there was voter anger against Scott Morrison, that there
8:04
Speaker 1: was a personal dislike of him.
8:06
Speaker 2: But there's no surprise in that, Shari. I mean, everyone
8:09
Speaker 2: was aware at the time. That's why the colleagues were restless.
8:11
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's surprising. I'm saying, so do you
8:14
Speaker 1: think you could have won the 2022 election?
8:16
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into that level of speculation
8:18
Speaker 2: because I didn't challenge. The leadership didn't change.
8:21
Speaker 1: Do you have any regrets about that?
8:22
Speaker 2: No, I don't. And I'm very comfortable in the decision
8:26
Speaker 2: that I took and where I am now. And I've
8:30
Speaker 2: been very philosophical about the change from life as a
8:34
Speaker 2: politician to now as a private citizen.
8:38
Speaker 1: You write of a joke that Morrison made of Moses
8:42
Speaker 1: passing the leadership of the Israelites to Joshua. He saw
8:46
Speaker 1: you as the successor.
8:50
Speaker 2: Well, he was very encouraging, is probably the word I
8:57
Speaker 2: would use, of... both my ambitions and my plans. And
9:05
Speaker 2: he would frequently talk about my career in politics, eventually
9:15
Speaker 2: leading to being in his position. But whether he was
9:20
Speaker 2: just trying to keep me at a distance, but also
9:23
Speaker 2: keep me sufficiently close, if you like.
9:26
Speaker 1: What's your relationship like now?
9:28
Speaker 2: My relationship with Scott Morrison is that we speak, it's amicable.
9:33
Speaker 2: I think it was damaged by the dual ministries. It's
9:36
Speaker 2: not the same as it was. I mean, on election
9:38
Speaker 2: night in 2022, he said, Josh is not just a friend,
9:42
Speaker 2: he's a brother. And my response has been brothers don't
9:46
Speaker 2: do things like dual ministries to each other in secret.
9:50
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like you're very forgiving. If someone does
9:52
Speaker 1: something that you perceive as a slight on you, you
9:55
Speaker 1: hold it against them forever.
9:57
Speaker 2: I wouldn't look at it like that. I haven't forgotten.
10:00
Speaker 2: I don't find the explanation sufficient or persuasive, but it
10:08
Speaker 2: was done.
10:09
Speaker 1: One of the fascinating things about the book is that
10:12
Speaker 1: you've really taken us behind the scenes of the politics
10:15
Speaker 1: during that pandemic period. I mean, of Gladys Berejiklian, you
10:19
Speaker 1: write that she visibly only tolerated Morrison as Prime Minister.
10:24
Speaker 1: There were some real tensions there.
10:27
Speaker 2: Real tensions, and there were a choice use of words
10:31
Speaker 2: on a number of occasions as well. That relationship was
10:38
Speaker 2: very tense. They both had to make decisions that were
10:43
Speaker 2: in the best interest of the state and the country,
10:46
Speaker 2: but clearly there was no love lost between the two
10:48
Speaker 2: of them. Why? Well, I think it was probably more
10:51
Speaker 2: than a personality mismatch. As I detail in the book,
10:56
Speaker 2: Gladys Berejiklian and Scott Morrison did not get on well.
10:59
Speaker 2: Their personalities were a mismatch. And despite them having to
11:04
Speaker 2: work towards the common goal of supporting the people of
11:07
Speaker 2: New South Wales and the people of Australia, it was
11:09
Speaker 2: definitely very tense at times.
11:11
Speaker 1: Same with the then Treasurer of New South Wales, Dominic Perrottet.
11:14
Speaker 1: And you say that Scott Morrison lost his temper in
11:17
Speaker 1: a way you've never seen it before. over parity.
11:21
Speaker 2: It was a hot moment and I document that in
11:23
Speaker 2: the book too. I'd even call it toxic, Shari. I mean,
11:27
Speaker 2: I think the point is there was a lot of
11:29
Speaker 2: pressure on the Prime Minister and he was getting criticisms
11:35
Speaker 2: coming from a number of quarters. So I could understand
11:39
Speaker 2: that he might be short-tempered and I can understand that
11:43
Speaker 2: Some of these relationships were strained, but what I saw
11:46
Speaker 2: that day was another level. There were expletives exchanged and
11:51
Speaker 2: Dom Perrottet said to me one evening after that exchange
11:56
Speaker 2: between the Prime Minister and himself, well, Scott will have
12:00
Speaker 2: to be more respectful when I'm Premier one day.
12:03
Speaker 1: So he knew he was going to end up as Premier?
12:05
Speaker 2: I think he could see the writing on the wall there.
12:08
Speaker 1: What was it over?
12:10
Speaker 2: Well, we were talking about different economic packages and how
12:14
Speaker 2: we can work together, federal and state.
12:16
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that Scott Morrison had this very difficult
12:19
Speaker 1: relationship with Gladys Berejiklian and Dominic Perrottet, and in fact,
12:23
Speaker 1: quite a friendly one with Daniel Andrews.
12:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I obviously felt very strongly that Daniel Andrews
12:30
Speaker 2: was taking his state down the wrong path. There were
12:32
Speaker 2: many times that he was coming to us with a
12:34
Speaker 2: hand out for more and more assistance, and there were
12:37
Speaker 2: times that we said no. But on a per capita basis,
12:41
Speaker 2: the federal government gave more money to Victoria than any
12:44
Speaker 2: other state, and that was because of the length of
12:47
Speaker 2: their lockdowns.
12:48
Speaker 1: From vaccine mandates to lockdowns, there were a lot of
12:51
Speaker 1: measures forced on Australians. Do you have any regrets about this?
12:56
Speaker 2: Well, I certainly feel that the lockdowns, particularly in the
12:59
Speaker 2: state of Victoria, were too extreme, and I think keeping
13:02
Speaker 2: the kids out of school was very problematic, and I
13:06
Speaker 2: said so at the time. In terms of the vaccine mandate,
13:09
Speaker 2: we ended up having one of the highest vaccination rates
13:12
Speaker 2: rates anywhere in the world. And if you were in
13:15
Speaker 2: the United States or the United Kingdom, you were at
13:18
Speaker 2: least 30 times more likely to die of COVID than
13:21
Speaker 2: you were in Australia.
13:23
Speaker 1: But shouldn't it have been a choice rather than a mandate?
13:26
Speaker 2: Look, there's a lot of discussion about that. And in
13:30
Speaker 2: a crisis such as the one we faced, we took
13:33
Speaker 2: the advice of the experts and people were extremely concerned
13:38
Speaker 2: about what the impact on of COVID would be on
13:42
Speaker 2: people's health. And we obviously saw what the impact it
13:45
Speaker 2: was on the economy.
13:46
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of children, they were taken out
13:49
Speaker 1: of school, kept locked up. You had teenagers, tweens as
13:54
Speaker 1: young as 12 years old, self-harming or attempting suicide.
13:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I speak a lot about that. And I
14:00
Speaker 2: actually spoke in the prime ministerial courtyard at the time
14:05
Speaker 2: about a letter I received from a local GP in
14:08
Speaker 2: my electorate about the number of young people that were
14:11
Speaker 2: self-harming and that she had to provide additional medication to.
14:16
Speaker 1: Yet Scott Morrison didn't want you to criticise Victorian Premier
14:20
Speaker 1: Daniel Andrews or even the lockdowns.
14:23
Speaker 2: Well, he saw the better side of Daniel Andrews and
14:26
Speaker 2: I certainly didn't. And I made those views clear publicly.
14:31
Speaker 2: Daniel Andrews' legacy for Victoria is a state that was
14:34
Speaker 2: broken and broke. Unfortunately, he escaped any accountability And he
14:41
Speaker 2: deflected all blame.
14:43
Speaker 1: You were about to balance the books as Treasurer.
14:46
Speaker 2: Well, we did balance the budget for the first time
14:49
Speaker 2: in 11 years.
14:49
Speaker 1: The cups were a bit premature, though.
14:51
Speaker 2: The cups were premature. And as you know, there was
14:56
Speaker 2: something called COVID. And that was a big economic shock
14:59
Speaker 2: that none of us saw coming. But we did balance
15:02
Speaker 2: the budget for the first time in 11 years. We
15:04
Speaker 2: did have the economy trending in the right direction. And
15:08
Speaker 2: then we were mugged by reality, namely by COVID. And
15:12
Speaker 2: when that happened, all bets were off, deficit surpluses. We
15:18
Speaker 2: were focused on one thing, saving the economy.
15:22
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of criticism, especially from the current Treasurer,
15:25
Speaker 1: Jim Chalmers, who says you spent, he often says, a
15:29
Speaker 1: trillion dollars of debt and nothing to show for it.
15:34
Speaker 2: Well, he's just speaking rubbish talk because we know that
15:38
Speaker 2: Jim Chalmers, during COVID, actually wanted the government to spend
15:42
Speaker 2: $ 81 billion more than we did. When I brought JobKeeper
15:49
Speaker 2: to an end after 12 months, Shari, the Treasurer said
15:53
Speaker 2: it would have diabolical consequences. Prime Minister Albanese, then opposition
15:58
Speaker 2: leader at the time, said the economic roof would come
16:02
Speaker 2: crashing down. These are not my words. Those are their words.
16:05
Speaker 2: Yet three months later, more than 120,000 more people were
16:11
Speaker 2: in work as a result. Before the pandemic really hit
16:15
Speaker 2: in February 2020, unemployment in Australia was 5.1%. When I
16:20
Speaker 2: left as Treasurer, it was 3.9%, the lowest unemployment rate
16:23
Speaker 2: since 1974.
16:28
Speaker 1: There is still to this day a lot of criticism,
16:31
Speaker 1: even from business groups, that you spent too much on JobKeeper,
16:35
Speaker 1: that you subsidised companies unnecessarily. What's your response to this?
16:41
Speaker 2: Well, again, we were confronted with a crisis that was
16:46
Speaker 2: unprecedented in our nation. At the time we announced JobKeeper,
16:52
Speaker 2: there was no vaccine in sight. Many people thought it
16:55
Speaker 2: could be a decade before a vaccine would happen And
16:59
Speaker 2: as you know, we were told through both Treasury and
17:04
Speaker 2: the health advice that the worst possible outcomes could occur.
17:08
Speaker 2: So we needed to throw everything at it. And JobKeeper
17:12
Speaker 2: was a policy that worked extremely well. It managed to
17:17
Speaker 2: keep the connection between employer and employee so that when
17:22
Speaker 2: the health restrictions were lifted, people could get back to work.
17:26
Speaker 2: So the damage to the economy would have been much
17:28
Speaker 2: worse but for a program like JobKeeper and the other
17:32
Speaker 2: initiatives we have taken. I had ambitions for politics, I
17:37
Speaker 2: had ambitions for tennis, but as I realised with the latter,
17:41
Speaker 2: my ambitions were far greater than my talents.
17:46
Speaker 1: Your family are Holocaust survivors. I mean, you nearly didn't
17:50
Speaker 1: even exist.
17:51
Speaker 2: That was my mother's experience when she was pretty much
17:54
Speaker 2: left for dead as just a toddler during the middle
17:58
Speaker 2: of the Second World War. Fortunately, she was saved and
18:02
Speaker 2: then came to Australia after the war had ended. Moved
18:08
Speaker 2: to Bondi, of all places. Grew up alongside the beach.
18:11
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary story that you tell in the book
18:15
Speaker 1: that your grandmother put your mum in an orphanage to
18:18
Speaker 1: hide her away and keep her safe. And then she
18:20
Speaker 1: just had this feeling that something was wrong.
18:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. And with her, with my great uncle, they got
18:28
Speaker 2: out of that. area in which they were in Budapest
18:33
Speaker 2: turned up at this home where some kids had been
18:38
Speaker 2: put there for for safety and when they were asked
18:42
Speaker 2: where's my mother they said well all the kids have
18:45
Speaker 2: gone to the countryside because it's going to be safer
18:48
Speaker 2: there and then they heard just a few a cry
18:52
Speaker 2: from the back of the the room and my grandmother
18:56
Speaker 2: asked the question what are those and what are those cries?
19:01
Speaker 2: And they said, well, that's the babies that are not
19:04
Speaker 2: going to make it. And they went to the back
19:07
Speaker 2: of the home and they found my mother there and
19:12
Speaker 2: they took her back into their arms and fortunately she survived.
19:17
Speaker 1: Your mum was classified as stateless on her official immigration
19:22
Speaker 1: documents when she did come to Australia. Yet decades later,
19:27
Speaker 1: this was held against you weaponised against you politically?
19:30
Speaker 2: It was disgusting and distasteful and it just showed how
19:36
Speaker 2: low some people will go to seize a political advantage.
19:41
Speaker 2: It was a number of years that I was dragged
19:43
Speaker 2: through the High Court and then the full court of
19:46
Speaker 2: the Federal Court over this issue of Section 44. and
19:50
Speaker 2: the citizenship of my mother and therefore me. Fortunately, the
19:55
Speaker 2: court decided unanimously that I was not a Hungarian citizen
20:00
Speaker 2: and that there was no issue here. And then the
20:04
Speaker 2: court decided that the people who brought the claims, my
20:07
Speaker 2: political opponents, would be required to pay costs. Well, they
20:12
Speaker 2: didn't want to pay costs. Of course they don't want
20:15
Speaker 2: to pay costs. They only wanted to cause as much
20:20
Speaker 2: discomfort as possible.
20:21
Speaker 1: Your mum is very loving. You've got a beautiful relationship, Erica.
20:25
Speaker 1: She didn't lavish you with praise, though, growing up. And
20:29
Speaker 1: when you became treasurer, she said to someone, I am
20:32
Speaker 1: pleased for him, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
20:35
Speaker 1: Wanted to wait to see how you'd do. Bit of
20:38
Speaker 1: a psychological question, but do you think this has made
20:41
Speaker 1: you seek approval from others, become more of a people pleaser? No.
20:45
Speaker 2: And I say in the book, well, if anyone calls
20:49
Speaker 2: me or someone else a people pleaser, what do you
20:51
Speaker 2: expect them to be? A people displeaser? The answer, of course,
20:54
Speaker 2: is no. My mother and father created an environment where
20:59
Speaker 2: there was a lot of encouragement. There was a lot
21:01
Speaker 2: of opportunity. But there wasn't, you know, overwhelming praise in
21:06
Speaker 2: achievements because, you know, life is more than about achievements
21:10
Speaker 2: per se. So it was a great environment to grow
21:14
Speaker 2: up in. And it's been amazing to share that political
21:18
Speaker 2: journey that I've had with my mum, but also, you know,
21:22
Speaker 2: more importantly, life's journey with my mum.
21:25
Speaker 1: You were very ambitious, even as a boy, before you
21:28
Speaker 1: decided you wanted to be a tennis star. You told
21:31
Speaker 1: family and friends that you were going to be a politician,
21:33
Speaker 1: the member for Kooyong.
21:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a few conversations reported back in the
21:38
Speaker 2: book about the ambition, because we grew up in Kooyong,
21:41
Speaker 2: so that was the natural place to one day represent.
21:46
Speaker 2: It was also a seat that is known as the
21:48
Speaker 2: jewel in the Liberal Party crown, and famous names like
21:52
Speaker 2: Robert Menzies and Andrew Peacock have held that seat. But
21:57
Speaker 2: I had ambitions for politics, I had ambitions for tennis,
22:00
Speaker 2: but as I realised with the latter, my ambitions were
22:04
Speaker 2: far greater than my talents.
22:06
Speaker 1: Are you a good loser? We know you're a good winner,
22:08
Speaker 1: you're a good loser.
22:09
Speaker 2: I'm a good loser, I'm a good winner, but maybe
22:12
Speaker 2: the way to look at the world is not to
22:14
Speaker 2: see in terms of wins and losses, and I do
22:17
Speaker 2: quote my daughter in the book who says, Dad, you
22:21
Speaker 2: never lose, you either win or you learn. So every
22:24
Speaker 2: opportunity when things don't go your way is to take
22:26
Speaker 2: something out of it for the next time.
22:30
Speaker 1: You went to Oxford, of course. You returned to Australia,
22:33
Speaker 1: began your career in politics as an advisor to Alexander Downer,
22:38
Speaker 1: the foreign minister. And I was fascinated to read that
22:41
Speaker 1: you were actually with him when 9-11 happened 25 years ago.
22:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great experience working with Alexander for
22:47
Speaker 2: a number of years. He reminded me that all politics
22:50
Speaker 2: is local and being a good local member was critical.
22:53
Speaker 2: But We were up in the Adelaide Hills, which is
22:57
Speaker 2: his old stomping ground in the seat of Mayo, when
23:01
Speaker 2: I turned on the television and saw the first plane
23:05
Speaker 2: go in to the World Trade Centre. And I quickly
23:09
Speaker 2: picked up the call to ring Alexander and his wife
23:13
Speaker 2: picked up the phone and I said, quick, turn on
23:15
Speaker 2: the television. And they did and the second plane went
23:19
Speaker 2: into the tower. I then rushed over there from the
23:21
Speaker 2: bed and breakfast where I was staying... And we worked
23:25
Speaker 2: through the night. The Prime Minister was, of course, away
23:28
Speaker 2: in the United States. John Anderson was the acting Prime Minister. Alexander,
23:32
Speaker 2: as Foreign Minister, played a critical role in getting the
23:36
Speaker 2: ANZUS Treaty invoked. But it was a very terrible time,
23:43
Speaker 2: distressing time, and one, I think, where the Howard government
23:46
Speaker 2: showed real leadership.
23:48
Speaker 1: The book takes us inside the leadership spill against then
23:51
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Tony Abbott. you were against a change of leader.
23:55
Speaker 1: You were being courted, like many others. That became a
23:58
Speaker 1: bit of a principle for you, never voting against the
24:01
Speaker 1: sitting Prime Minister.
24:03
Speaker 2: Well, I was loyal for those successive Prime Ministers, even
24:06
Speaker 2: though they came under challenge. First Tony Abbott, then Malcolm Turnbull,
24:10
Speaker 2: and then, of course, Scott Morrison. But when the challenge
24:13
Speaker 2: was on to Tony Abbott, I remember Peter Credlin asking
24:16
Speaker 2: me to go down one early morning into the Federal
24:21
Speaker 2: Police Headquarters building where Tony Abbott was staying because the
24:24
Speaker 2: lodge was being renovated. And I remember just being with
24:29
Speaker 2: him just one-on-one that morning of the empty chair spill
24:33
Speaker 2: and him saying, well, how many votes do you think
24:38
Speaker 2: the opponents will get? And I gave my number.
24:40
Speaker 1: In the 30s, you said?
24:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:41
Speaker 1: High 30s, you said?
24:42
Speaker 2: And we were pretty close.
24:43
Speaker 1: You were spot on. It was 39, wasn't it? Yeah.
24:46
Speaker 2: But obviously that was just the start of what became
24:50
Speaker 2: the end of his prime ministership. Yeah.
24:53
Speaker 1: Malcolm Turnbull was then rolled. What's your verdict on him
24:57
Speaker 1: as Prime Minister?
24:58
Speaker 2: Well, Malcolm Turnbull's highly capable, and I also am grateful
25:02
Speaker 2: for the opportunity he gave me to try to solve
25:06
Speaker 2: for that big issue of integrating energy and climate change
25:11
Speaker 2: into the one portfolio and the one set of policies.
25:14
Speaker 2: And so I relished that challenge. And to Malcolm Turnbull's credit, Shari,
25:19
Speaker 2: I He didn't have my support to become prime minister,
25:24
Speaker 2: but he still promoted me then from the outer ministry
25:27
Speaker 2: into the cabinet.
25:29
Speaker 1: There's a great line in the book. After he lost
25:31
Speaker 1: the prime ministership, he said, you, Josh, you cost me
25:34
Speaker 1: the job because of the energy policy, the NEC.
25:37
Speaker 2: Well, in so many words. But he obviously was ambitious
25:44
Speaker 2: with climate and energy policy. I certainly did my best.
25:48
Speaker 2: It was always going to be a very difficult ask
25:52
Speaker 2: because he had a one seat majority. And there were
25:56
Speaker 2: people in the party room who were still looking for
26:01
Speaker 2: revenge after the Abbott challenge. And that made for a
26:08
Speaker 2: pretty destabilising atmosphere in the party room. So to get
26:12
Speaker 2: a contentious policy through like the National Energy Guarantee, particularly
26:16
Speaker 2: when the Labor Party are doing you no favours in
26:19
Speaker 2: the parliament, And among state energy ministers, it had a
26:24
Speaker 2: difficulty rating of about 11 out of 10.
26:27
Speaker 1: Scott Morrison asked you to run on a ticket with him.
26:29
Speaker 1: You said no. You both won, of course, you as deputy.
26:34
Speaker 1: And then you went back to his office and he said,
26:36
Speaker 1: what portfolio do you want? And he was probably thinking
26:39
Speaker 1: of giving the Treasury portfolio to Dutton as a peace offering.
26:43
Speaker 1: But you surprised him.
26:44
Speaker 2: Yes. It's a convention in the Liberal Party that when
26:47
Speaker 2: you're the deputy leader, you get your choice of portfolio.
26:50
Speaker 2: So when we walked back to the office of the Treasurer,
26:56
Speaker 2: which would later become my office, he asked me across
26:59
Speaker 2: the table, what portfolio do you want? And I said Treasury.
27:03
Speaker 2: And I'm really glad that I took it because it
27:04
Speaker 2: was a portfolio that I loved and it was a
27:07
Speaker 2: portfolio that was at the centre of attention during the
27:11
Speaker 2: biggest economic crisis our country has faced since the Great Depression.
27:16
Speaker 1: You'd accept this is a matter of life and death.
27:19
Speaker 2: I've said it from day one.
27:23
Speaker 1: You write in the book that in these uncertain times,
27:26
Speaker 1: there's less confidence about our ability to rely on the
27:32
Speaker 1: United States under President Trump. What do you mean by that?
27:36
Speaker 2: Well, I think the world is becoming more unsafe. And
27:41
Speaker 2: I think our neighbourhood is becoming less stable. And so
27:45
Speaker 2: a country like Australia... like many other countries around the world,
27:49
Speaker 2: needs to spend more on defence. Now, that's over and
27:54
Speaker 2: above the partnership we have with the United States and
27:57
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom through AUKUS and the alliance relationship we
28:00
Speaker 2: have through ANZUS. And we have to take responsibility for
28:07
Speaker 2: our own security. We have to become more self-reliant. Being
28:11
Speaker 2: a beneficiary of the United States military and security umbrella
28:16
Speaker 2: is a big win for us. But I raise the question,
28:21
Speaker 2: a difficult question, for some, maybe a scenario that they
28:25
Speaker 2: cannot foresee today. What happens if when we need that help,
28:32
Speaker 2: it's not forthcoming? We need to have the ability to
28:36
Speaker 2: more adequately defend ourselves.
28:38
Speaker 1: Do you think Donald Trump has been a good president?
28:41
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has done some good things and some things
28:44
Speaker 2: that I would have preferred he hasn't done. But at
28:47
Speaker 2: the end of the day, that's a verdict for the
28:50
Speaker 2: American people because they're the voters.
28:52
Speaker 1: What do you think he's done well and not?
28:55
Speaker 2: Well, I think, for example, he's getting other countries to
28:59
Speaker 2: pick up a greater share of the defence burden. I
29:03
Speaker 2: think he has tackled some of the nastiest, most dangerous
29:08
Speaker 2: regimes in the world and in the process tried to
29:13
Speaker 2: make us globally, as well as obviously Americans... safer. I
29:18
Speaker 2: don't feel that the trade wars have been productive. I
29:22
Speaker 2: think there's great benefits from multilateral free trade. They're just
29:27
Speaker 2: a few examples.
29:29
Speaker 1: Do you think his decision to launch war against Iran
29:32
Speaker 1: was the right one?
29:34
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's not a verdict that you can
29:36
Speaker 2: pass right now because there's still a long way to go.
29:40
Speaker 2: What we do know is that Iran was intent on
29:43
Speaker 2: developing nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons in the hands of
29:48
Speaker 2: that theocratic state that was hell-bent on destroying other countries,
29:53
Speaker 2: namely Israel, and causing significant harm to American and Western
29:58
Speaker 2: interests in the region. was a real and present danger.
30:02
Speaker 2: So taking that challenge on was one that somebody needed
30:07
Speaker 2: to take.
30:08
Speaker 1: Looking at the economy now, rate rises, the property market
30:13
Speaker 1: in free fall, high inflation, cost of living crisis, debt
30:18
Speaker 1: hitting over a trillion dollars for the first time. I mean,
30:22
Speaker 1: as a former treasurer, what do you think when you
30:25
Speaker 1: look at this set of economic circumstances?
30:28
Speaker 2: Well, the trend is not our friend, and the government's
30:31
Speaker 2: economic record has been very poor, as you say. Interest
30:35
Speaker 2: rates are going up. Inflation is up. Electricity prices is up.
30:42
Speaker 2: Unemployment is up. Yet the things that we need to
30:47
Speaker 2: go up are not productivity, wages, living standards.
30:51
Speaker 1: How would you describe Jim Chalmers as treasurer?
30:54
Speaker 2: Disappointing.
30:55
Speaker 1: As a former treasurer who's done the job, Well, one
30:58
Speaker 1: of the reasons.
30:58
Speaker 2: I've written this book is because there's a plea for
31:02
Speaker 2: us as a country to change course. I feel that
31:05
Speaker 2: the trend is not our friend, that our economy is weakening,
31:08
Speaker 2: that our society is fragmenting and that our neighbourhood is
31:12
Speaker 2: getting less secure. So we actually need to take the
31:16
Speaker 2: steps to make our economy more competitive. So I talk
31:19
Speaker 2: at length about energy policy, about tax policy, about budget management,
31:24
Speaker 2: about housing policy, about immigration settings. about industrial relations, because
31:29
Speaker 2: they're all the inputs into getting a more productive, more
31:32
Speaker 2: competitive and stronger economy.
31:35
Speaker 1: You clearly have thought about your vision for the future
31:39
Speaker 1: of the country. Particularly, I thought your ideas about tax
31:43
Speaker 1: reform were interesting. You suggest raising the GST and expanding it,
31:49
Speaker 1: but then lowering personal income tax rates.
31:53
Speaker 2: If you look at international comparisons, where our GST today
31:57
Speaker 2: is very low compared to the rest of the world,
32:00
Speaker 2: where our income tax levels are very high to the
32:05
Speaker 2: rest of the world. So this is not about increasing
32:07
Speaker 2: the tax burden. This is about actually decreasing the tax burden,
32:11
Speaker 2: but to me, making the tax system more efficient to
32:14
Speaker 2: drive more investment and more productivity. So that's why I
32:18
Speaker 2: say we should have this debate.
32:20
Speaker 1: You look at some of the tax policies that the
32:24
Speaker 1: Albanese government has overseen from negative gearing, capital gains tax,
32:28
Speaker 1: the impact that's then had on the housing market hasn't
32:32
Speaker 1: helped the people it claimed to help. People and families
32:34
Speaker 1: are really struggling. I mean, surely you must be very
32:38
Speaker 1: frustrated looking on at this.
32:41
Speaker 2: Well, I am like everyone else is. And with respect
32:44
Speaker 2: to different tax changes, the people who are going to
32:47
Speaker 2: pay the highest price are the renters, you know, who
32:52
Speaker 2: are wanting just to get ahead. And we can't penalise
32:56
Speaker 2: investment because investment is what grows the economy. It's about
32:59
Speaker 2: growing the pie, not just redistributing it.
33:03
Speaker 1: You do go into the book, there is, you know,
33:05
Speaker 1: the later chapters, I suppose, are a little bit like
33:07
Speaker 1: a manifesto, your ideas for government, for correcting Australia, your
33:13
Speaker 1: vision for the nation. On immigration, it's not just the numbers,
33:19
Speaker 1: it's also the type of people we allow in. You write,
33:22
Speaker 1: a country that demands nothing of those to whom it
33:25
Speaker 1: offers citizenship cannot think much of the citizenship's value. What
33:30
Speaker 1: should we demand of migrants?
33:32
Speaker 2: Reciprocity. So people who come to this country, and I
33:38
Speaker 2: don't care which part of the world they come from
33:41
Speaker 2: or the faith that they bring, but what I care
33:45
Speaker 2: about is that they put Australia first and that they uphold...
33:51
Speaker 2: the values that we hold dear, that we're all equal
33:56
Speaker 2: before the law, that they support democratic freedoms, the equal
34:00
Speaker 2: treatment of women, the pluralism that has made our country
34:06
Speaker 2: as prosperous and as safe as it has been. But
34:09
Speaker 2: something has changed. And I'm very critical of this government
34:14
Speaker 2: for having the numbers too high with respect to immigration
34:18
Speaker 2: and the standards too low. And Pauline Hanson, among others,
34:22
Speaker 2: have tapped into that sentiment. And that's why people are
34:27
Speaker 2: demanding a change. And the government is being forced to
34:31
Speaker 2: make that change, but it should never have come to this.
34:34
Speaker 1: Well, Hanson's saying that there should be a complete ban
34:38
Speaker 1: on migrants from 26 countries. Do you agree with that?
34:41
Speaker 2: Well, as to the specific settings, they will be done...
34:46
Speaker 2: by the people who are in the positions of power,
34:49
Speaker 2: whether it's in the government or the opposition. So I
34:53
Speaker 2: don't want to go into that level of detail about
34:56
Speaker 2: the number of migrants or indeed the countries in which
34:59
Speaker 2: they come. I do, though, point out an argument you
35:03
Speaker 2: yourself have made when you looked at the Bondi killers,
35:08
Speaker 2: and one of them had come from India. And the
35:11
Speaker 2: Indian community has been an incredible contributor to our country.
35:18
Speaker 2: So in that case, it's not about bringing to an
35:22
Speaker 2: end the number of people from a specific country. It's
35:25
Speaker 2: about making sure that the people who come here are
35:29
Speaker 2: ones that uphold Australian values in the same way that
35:33
Speaker 2: you and I do.
35:34
Speaker 1: How do you do that? How do you thoroughly enough
35:38
Speaker 1: vet every individual?
35:40
Speaker 2: Well, we need to do it. It's not a question
35:43
Speaker 2: of saying, Well, it's impossible to do because it's not.
35:46
Speaker 2: We just have to be much more rigorous in understanding
35:49
Speaker 2: not only background checks, but when people come here, they
35:53
Speaker 2: come here basically on probation because when they come here,
36:00
Speaker 2: they have to uphold their values. And if they don't,
36:03
Speaker 2: there has to be a penalty to that.
36:05
Speaker 1: This issue has become particularly relevant since October 7 and since...
36:13
Speaker 1: just in the day or two afterwards, we saw the
36:15
Speaker 1: scenes at Lakemba and at the Opera House. That was
36:18
Speaker 1: really when you started noticing shocking lack of leadership.
36:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as part of my documentary, which was
36:27
Speaker 2: done more than 14 months before the Bondi attack, I
36:32
Speaker 2: interviewed John Howard and I asked him what would have
36:36
Speaker 2: his first step been after the events of October the 7th?
36:40
Speaker 2: And he said he would have made a phone call
36:42
Speaker 2: to Kim Beazley invited him to stand side by side
36:46
Speaker 2: in the Prime Ministerial Courtyard to send a message to
36:49
Speaker 2: the Australian people that these were the red lines not
36:52
Speaker 2: to be crossed. This has never been a partisan issue, Shari.
36:57
Speaker 2: It's always been a leadership issue. And what's been missing
37:01
Speaker 2: in our country over the last three years is for
37:04
Speaker 2: our political leaders, both federal and state, to say these
37:08
Speaker 2: are the red lines that are not to be crossed.
37:10
Speaker 2: And when people cross them, there is a penalty. We
37:14
Speaker 2: need political leadership because people are elected to uphold their responsibility,
37:21
Speaker 2: first and foremost, to keep the public safe. And we
37:26
Speaker 2: saw with the Bondi attack, a failure to keep the
37:32
Speaker 2: public safe.
37:34
Speaker 1: Do you blame the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, for the
37:37
Speaker 1: trajectory and the escalation of anti-Semitism and violence we saw
37:42
Speaker 1: that began with the Opera House rally and culminated in Bondi?
37:46
Speaker 2: Well, I believe the Prime Minister, his Home Affairs Minister,
37:50
Speaker 2: Tony Burke, his Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, they all ignored
37:56
Speaker 2: the warnings. Warnings and pleas for assistance, cries for help.
38:07
Speaker 2: And if those warnings had been heeded, if those cries
38:11
Speaker 2: for help had not fallen on deaf ears, then we
38:15
Speaker 2: could have avoided the biggest terrorist attack in Australia's history.
38:21
Speaker 2: The Prime Minister said after Bondi, a person in his
38:24
Speaker 2: position regrets not doing more. The Prime Minister should have
38:28
Speaker 2: been called to the Royal Commission to publicly account for
38:34
Speaker 2: what that statement meant. What did he mean that he
38:38
Speaker 2: should have done more. And he regretted not doing more.
38:43
Speaker 1: He's culpable, the Prime Minister. That's what you believe.
38:46
Speaker 2: Well, I believe that he has a responsibility to account
38:51
Speaker 2: for his inactions. Inactions and failures that occurred over a
38:57
Speaker 2: number of years and contributed to an environment where we
39:03
Speaker 2: saw the Bondi attack.
39:06
Speaker 1: Why should he stay in the job then? given 15 people,
39:09
Speaker 1: including a 10-year-old, died.
39:11
Speaker 2: I have been as forthright as anybody about the Prime
39:18
Speaker 2: Minister and the government's failures. I have been as loud
39:25
Speaker 2: a proponent as anyone for the Royal Commission to be held.
39:31
Speaker 2: But the decisions as to who is called to account
39:36
Speaker 2: are not decisions for me. They're for others. But I
39:40
Speaker 2: say to the Australian people, the message is very clear.
39:44
Speaker 2: Our government and those people charged with the fundamental responsibility
39:50
Speaker 2: to keep them and us safe, did not meet that obligation.
39:57
Speaker 2: And you and I know Bondi was not an isolated incident.
40:00
Speaker 1: And we do have the sense, what's next? It's almost
40:04
Speaker 1: anxiously waiting for the next thing to happen.
40:07
Speaker 2: Well, unless things change dramatically and quickly, there is a
40:12
Speaker 2: sense of inevitability about further attacks.
40:17
Speaker 1: You'd accept this is a matter of life and death?
40:20
Speaker 2: I've said it from day one. I said it after
40:23
Speaker 2: October the 7th. What we saw on the Opera House,
40:27
Speaker 2: steps of the Opera House, was a sign of things
40:30
Speaker 2: to come in our country.
40:32
Speaker 1: Would you like to be Prime Minister?
40:34
Speaker 2: I think anyone who enters the political race wants to
40:37
Speaker 2: rise up to the top.
40:43
Speaker 1: Given you acknowledge this is a matter of life and death,
40:46
Speaker 1: for your children, for my children, for our community, for
40:49
Speaker 1: all of Australians, then don't you feel obligated to do
40:54
Speaker 1: something about it to return to politics?
40:58
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like I'm trying to do something about
41:00
Speaker 2: it outside of politics.
41:02
Speaker 1: But you acknowledge there's nothing, nothing comes close to strong
41:07
Speaker 1: political leadership. That's what sets the tone.
41:10
Speaker 2: It does. But I accepted the verdict of the Australian
41:15
Speaker 2: people in 2022. I was retired by popular demand. And
41:19
Speaker 2: as a result, I got this wonderful life with my family.
41:24
Speaker 2: And they're the most precious things in my life. In fact,
41:28
Speaker 2: my mother often jokes, Shari, that she wants to send
41:30
Speaker 2: a thank you letter to Monique Ryan because the last
41:33
Speaker 2: four years have been terrific and rewarding in that respect.
41:38
Speaker 2: So I've been able, I think, to make a contribution
41:41
Speaker 2: outside of politics and As for my future, I will
41:46
Speaker 2: make those decisions at the appropriate time. There's a lot
41:49
Speaker 2: to weigh up. There's a lot of considerations to take
41:52
Speaker 2: into account.
41:52
Speaker 1: These aren't normal times.
41:54
Speaker 2: They certainly not.
41:54
Speaker 1: This is life and death. We're dealing with terror incidents.
41:58
Speaker 1: ASIO has revealed that it's foiled 16 terror plots since
42:03
Speaker 1: Bondi alone.
42:04
Speaker 2: Phenomenal.
42:04
Speaker 1: 16 since Bondi.
42:06
Speaker 2: Phenomenal number.
42:07
Speaker 1: So don't you feel a duty to try and sort
42:11
Speaker 1: this country out?
42:12
Speaker 2: Well, my duty is to speak out when I see
42:15
Speaker 2: wrong and to call for what is right.
42:19
Speaker 1: But only as Prime Minister can you fix the country.
42:22
Speaker 2: If you're going to set a high bar like that,
42:24
Speaker 2: then there's only one person who gets to hold that role.
42:27
Speaker 2: The point is.
42:28
Speaker 1: Seriously, Josh. This is a really important issue.
42:32
Speaker 2: But if you look at the number of hurdles to
42:37
Speaker 2: get to that apex of the pyramid, you win your pre-selection,
42:41
Speaker 2: you've got to win... a local seat. You've got to
42:43
Speaker 2: win the support of your colleagues, and then you've got
42:46
Speaker 2: to win a general election. There's a lot of ifs
42:50
Speaker 2: in there, a lot of hurdles in there, and it's
42:52
Speaker 2: a long way from the first stop to the last stop.
42:56
Speaker 2: The Liberal Party is in a low ebb, but we need,
43:01
Speaker 2: for our country's sake, better leadership than we've had to date.
43:05
Speaker 1: You believe in service. You do believe in serving your country.
43:09
Speaker 1: So at what point do you say, I have to run,
43:12
Speaker 1: I have to do this?
43:14
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not at that point now. And the next
43:17
Speaker 2: election is 18 months away. I've written this book for
43:21
Speaker 2: a number of reasons, but that is not the reason.
43:23
Speaker 1: So you say you haven't made up your mind yet.
43:25
Speaker 1: That's true. Have you given yourself a deadline for when
43:27
Speaker 1: you do need to make this decision?
43:29
Speaker 2: I haven't. I've written this book. People can read it.
43:34
Speaker 2: They can understand either ideas for the future or explanations
43:39
Speaker 2: for the past.
43:40
Speaker 1: But 18 months until the next election, when do you
43:44
Speaker 1: need to make the decision by working back from that?
43:47
Speaker 2: Look, there's no set date. Parties go through their own
43:52
Speaker 2: processes internally. What I do know is there's a lot
43:56
Speaker 2: of considerations to weigh up. This book is independent of
44:00
Speaker 2: that decision.
44:00
Speaker 1: I've known you a long time, Josh, and... It does
44:03
Speaker 1: feel to me like you've always had this sense of
44:06
Speaker 1: destiny about you, that you would end up as Prime Minister.
44:08
Speaker 2: They're your words, not mine.
44:10
Speaker 1: Would you disagree with them?
44:11
Speaker 2: Well, I don't have that as my own sense of self.
44:16
Speaker 2: I put my hand up in politics in 2010 after
44:23
Speaker 2: trying and failing once before. Who knew how the cards
44:28
Speaker 2: would fall? I was fortunate that we were in government
44:30
Speaker 2: three years later First Tony Abbott, then Malcolm Turnbull gave
44:34
Speaker 2: me the opportunity. Then I led a policy that didn't
44:39
Speaker 2: get over the line, the National Energy Guarantee. That door closed.
44:44
Speaker 2: That door closed and another door opened. Then the pandemic
44:50
Speaker 2: hit and we gave it our all and I'm very
44:52
Speaker 2: proud of the result. And then I got washed out
44:55
Speaker 2: with the tide and I lost my seat.
44:58
Speaker 1: When Scott Morrison gave you a tour of Kirribilli, he said,
45:01
Speaker 1: this will be your home one day. You do have
45:04
Speaker 1: that sense of destiny about you. Do you think it
45:06
Speaker 1: will be?
45:07
Speaker 2: Well, I think it was being encouraging and I have
45:14
Speaker 2: my own ambitions, but first and foremost, Shari, I want
45:20
Speaker 2: to be present for my family. And that's what I've
45:22
Speaker 2: got to weigh up because.
45:24
Speaker 1: Do you still have those ambitions, though?
45:26
Speaker 2: Everyone who's been in politics knows... how difficult a political
45:33
Speaker 2: life is, how many sacrifices you need to make. And
45:37
Speaker 2: life in the private sector has been really enjoyable. And again,
45:43
Speaker 2: I feel like I've made a difference to the public debate,
45:47
Speaker 2: even while I've been out of politics.
45:49
Speaker 1: Do you still have those ambitions, though? Would you like
45:51
Speaker 1: to be Prime Minister?
45:53
Speaker 2: Look, I think anyone who enters the political race wants
45:57
Speaker 2: to rise up to the top. Certainly they were my
45:59
Speaker 2: ambitions when I first entered into politics. But now I'm
46:03
Speaker 2: out of politics, so I wouldn't be so presumptuous to
46:08
Speaker 2: say that's my ambition today.
46:10
Speaker 1: The Liberal Party is having a near-death experience.
46:14
Speaker 2: It's existential.
46:16
Speaker 1: Do you think it'll come back, or do you think
46:18
Speaker 1: the party is in a permanent demise?
46:20
Speaker 2: It feels like things are different. Not only has the
46:24
Speaker 2: demographic shifted, changed dramatically. The population is a lot more urbanised,
46:30
Speaker 2: it's younger, it's more highly educated. But the Liberal Party
46:36
Speaker 2: is facing significant challenges on both its left flank from
46:40
Speaker 2: the Teals and its right flank with One Nation. So
46:45
Speaker 2: I do think it's an existential threat and I do
46:49
Speaker 2: think we have a huge task ahead.
46:53
Speaker 1: Is it a matter of the right leader? Do you
46:55
Speaker 1: think it's Angus Taylor that's the issue?
46:57
Speaker 2: I fully support Angus as leader and recognise that there's
47:02
Speaker 2: lots of good people there doing important work, but we
47:06
Speaker 2: can't accept business as usual because the vote is so
47:10
Speaker 2: low for the Coalition, and yes, the vote is low
47:13
Speaker 2: for the Labor Party, but they still win 94 seats
47:16
Speaker 2: with a primary vote in the low 30s. We win 43...
47:20
Speaker 2: with a low vote in the low 30s. That says
47:23
Speaker 2: something very powerful about how we need to take the
47:26
Speaker 2: challenge differently forward.
47:28
Speaker 1: One Nation's primary vote was only 6.5% at the last election.
47:33
Speaker 1: After Bondi, both after Pauline Hanson's strong immigration stance, but
47:38
Speaker 1: also after the Australian public saw very clearly Albanese's weakness,
47:44
Speaker 1: One Nation's primary is now sitting around 30%, equal to Labor's.
47:48
Speaker 1: Do you think... Pauline Hanson could be Prime Minister.
47:53
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't want to contemplate that because I want
47:56
Speaker 2: the Liberal leader to be the Prime Minister. What I
47:59
Speaker 2: do feel, though, is the One Nation vote isn't going
48:03
Speaker 2: to suddenly disappear. We're not going back to a world,
48:07
Speaker 2: very quickly at least, where they're at 6%, because they
48:12
Speaker 2: have tapped into this disenchantment out there with the major
48:16
Speaker 2: political parties and with the hypersensitivity to issues like immigration,
48:22
Speaker 2: cost of living. And let's face it, the Liberal Party
48:25
Speaker 2: hasn't been as good as it needs to be on
48:28
Speaker 2: promoting the policies that matter to the Australian people.
48:33
Speaker 1: The rate the polls are going at the moment, Pauline
48:35
Speaker 1: Hanson is set to either be the opposition leader or
48:37
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister.
48:39
Speaker 2: I think the polls will move around between now and
48:41
Speaker 2: the next election.
48:42
Speaker 1: Would you prefer to see Albanese or Pauline as Prime Minister?
48:46
Speaker 2: I'm not into this game of gotcha.
48:49
Speaker 1: It's not a gotcha. Those are the two, you know,
48:52
Speaker 1: in the polls. Labor and One Nation are equal on 30% primary.
48:55
Speaker 1: Who would you rather as PM?
48:57
Speaker 2: Shari, if you're asking me who I'm voting for, because
49:00
Speaker 2: that's where I have a vote.
49:00
Speaker 1: It's not what I asked.
49:01
Speaker 2: But that's what I have a vote for. When I
49:04
Speaker 2: go into the ballot, I'll be voting for the Liberal candidate.
49:07
Speaker 2: Not the One Nation or the Labor Party.
49:08
Speaker 1: Would you prefer to see Pauline, though, as Prime Minister,
49:11
Speaker 1: compared to Albanese?
49:12
Speaker 2: What I think people are sometimes failing to see is
49:16
Speaker 2: who the real opponent is here for the Liberal Party.
49:19
Speaker 2: The real opponent's not One Nation. The real opponent is
49:22
Speaker 2: the Labor Party because they're the incumbent. They're the ones
49:28
Speaker 2: who are overseeing this weakening economy, this fragmenting society. If
49:34
Speaker 2: you want to see a change in the direction of
49:38
Speaker 2: the country, You need to vote for a Liberal government,
49:42
Speaker 2: not a Labor one.
49:43
Speaker 1: I mean, it has been your lifelong dream, hasn't it, Josh,
49:46
Speaker 1: to become the Prime Minister?
49:48
Speaker 2: To be honest, Shari, I didn't even believe that I'd
49:51
Speaker 2: get to be the Treasurer of this country, let alone
49:54
Speaker 2: in the middle of a crisis. So I'm extremely grateful
49:58
Speaker 2: for the opportunities that I've had. I didn't get to
50:01
Speaker 2: be Prime Minister, but I have no regrets about that.
50:04
Speaker 1: Well, yet. You didn't get to be Prime Minister yet. Finally, Josh,
50:08
Speaker 1: what would you regret the most? Never becoming Australian Prime
50:11
Speaker 1: Minister or never winning the Australian Tennis Open?
50:15
Speaker 2: Well, as you know, I have never scaled either of
50:17
Speaker 2: those two heights, not through want of trying. But what
50:21
Speaker 2: I learned as a young person playing tennis was that
50:25
Speaker 2: my ambitions were far greater than my talents. So I
50:27
Speaker 2: was never getting close to that Australian Open. And I'm
50:30
Speaker 2: sure some of your viewers tonight will look back on
50:33
Speaker 2: my political career. They might also say, that my ambitions
50:36
Speaker 2: were far greater than my talents, but I'll let them
50:39
Speaker 2: be the judge of that.
50:40
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Josh Frydenberg.
50:42
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Shari.