Latest / Beheaded / "The Time Will Come - I, Anne Boleyn" (Part I)

Transcript

"The Time Will Come - I, Anne Boleyn" (Part I) · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season two, episode thirteen.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Part one.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Part one of episode thirteen.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: And we have come this far.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We have a few minor hiatuses this season.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: We apologize, but we're here.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: It's all intentional.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: It was 100% intentional.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: But you knew this weeks ago we had to go to Disney World.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: We did it.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: We survived.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: We're here.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: We got negative COVID tests, both of us.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Very excited about that.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: And we had a great time at Disney.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: We did, uh I think we said this maybe when we booked the trip, but we had three days at Disney World and then one day at Universal to see Harry Potter.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: To see the whispering world.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Literally, that's all we did.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that was enough time, but it was gosh, it was really crowded at Universal.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: I wish we could take away half of the people.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Disney was great.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Disney was great.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: And Disney, I mean, if you're a fan of Disney, you kind of expect this of Disney, but like good distancing protocols, like very clear as where you should stand and signage and people directing you where to go.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Only 40% capacity.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: That was nice.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: It was really nice.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Like we didn't wait really much longer than 30 minutes.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: Like if we did wait longer than 30, it was like for a big ride.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Like we were like for sure.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do this.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: But all the rest of the rides, it was it was very quick.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: And then Universal.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Shit show.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to speak ill of anyone.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Wait, they might be a sponsor for us one day.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: It was pleasant.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: It was fine.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: We didn't get COVID.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: We did not get COVID at Universal.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: We thought we were going to.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: We might have seen a girl in a sheer mesh dress and she was naked underneath.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: There was a lady smoking next to Hogwarts.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like with a cigarette mask down.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Also a guy with a full-on joint lighting up, taking videos of him lighting the joint.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: It just wasn't Disney World.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: It was very different.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure we have a lot of fans who are fans of Universal Studios.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: And it was funny.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: I do give them credit for Wizarding World.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Like that was amazing.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Like Gringotts was amazing.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: The Hogwarts Express was amazing.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Hogwarts Castle was amazing.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: And the rest was there.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Disney World is fair.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: Disney World was great.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: That's just our opinion.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Love it or hate it.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: That's that's just what our overall impression was.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: But one really, really cool thing happened in Hogwarts.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about this before of like what was in the movie.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: We did mention this and we were kind of surprised, I guess, to see it in real life.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: But we were on what was it Forbidden Journey?
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Where we're in the Hogwarts Castle and we're in line, we're in the queue, ready to go, you know, into the Well, but first though, like we've explained how in Sorcerer's Stone in the movie, if you're in the scene when like Harry Ron and Hermione are going up the moving staircases and all the portraits are there, there's a portrait of Anne Boleyn.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And just to kind of recap, the theory is this because she was a witch who went to Halloween.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: And she's in England, and she went to Hogan.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's very much her portrait.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not like a It's a distinct port.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: The portrait.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: The portrait of Anne Boleyn is there.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now continue.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: So I like we're in the queue and we're in the gallery.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: So we see all the portraits.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Some of them are moving, some of them not.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: And there it's a really high, like high.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: It's cool that it's like a replica of you know the movie.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's really.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's really hard to see the photos like up top because you're just like, I don't know.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Like we're all looking around, it's kind of dark.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Do you think Anne Boleyn's picture's here?
3:38
SPEAKER_01: And she's like, I don't know, maybe.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: And so we both start looking.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, nah.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: But both of us were like attention to detail.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: We're like, no faith, there's no way her portrait's here.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Who would put it there?
3:48
SPEAKER_00: We found it.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: Anne Boleyn's portrait is inside of Hogwarts Passle at Universal Studios.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: You heard it here.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if anyone else has noticed this.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: I can't find anything.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: We looked online to see if people have like taken.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: We need to make this go viral.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a really I'll post pictures.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: We have proof.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I like was zooming in.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: It was really high up.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: So the pictures are blurry because like you're literally craning your neck looking up.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: But it's clearly the far top corner up by the ceiling.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but it's clearly her portrait.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: It's clearly her portrait.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: So we were freaking out and no one around us understood why we were freaking out.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: We were like, ooh.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: I was also freaking out when we went to Epcot.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Of course, I just wanted to hang out in England all day.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, they have like the around the they have like all the countries.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: It's called the uh, what's it called?
4:33
SPEAKER_00: The World Show Showcase.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: So it's like they have 11 different countries and they have England, and it's so adorable, and they have like the pub and crown, and it's all like British phone booths, and of course they have a replica of Hampton Court Palace, and that's where I spent like half the day just drinking and she's like, I'm just gonna keep having drinks next to Hampton Court Palace here.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: They had a pub, they had Hampton Court, I was perfect, I was happy.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: It was like the closest I think we can get for a while to London.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Right now, we were in London.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: We were gonna post a picture being like, We we made it, we're in London now.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh also when we got there, uh, I think Megan saw St.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Mark's Square in Venice, and it looks kind of from afar, like Tower of London-ish, you know, like Big Ben, or not Tower of London, but Big Ben.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: And so she goes, she goes, Oh my gosh, like London, and she points to it, and I was like, That's Italy.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: It looked like we were from a distance we were.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: I think from far away.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah, I think that's St.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Mark's Square.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: You also ran a marathon?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Not at Disney World, but not at Disney.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Literally the weekend after.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, and okay, so full disclosure, and I think I might have might have even said this on our show, but um, when I booked Disney World, I knew that the marathon was the next weekend.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Like Saturday we'd be at Magic Kingdom, and the following Saturday I would be running a marathon.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: But I told Megan, I was like, you know, all of these have been getting canceled.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: I at that point I had three canceled races.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, there's no way this race is even happening.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm signed up, I have my flights, I have my hotel, but I'm gonna cancel it all because it's not even gonna happen.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I told you guys this too.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: And then sure enough, like we inched closer and closer to our trip.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, this is gonna happen.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to Disney World and then I'm immediately going to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, to run a marathon.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: And so we went to Florida.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: I got back on a we got back on a Wednesday night.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Wednesday night.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I left Thursday night for South Carolina and then the following straight back to the East Coast.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And my mom was like, why didn't you just book a flight from Orlando to Myrtle Beach?
6:27
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I don't, I don't know.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that far ahead.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: That wasn't made a lot of sense, actually.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I know, but I was like, at that point, we I just didn't even think that race was gonna happen, so it was what it was.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, yeah, you know, and so I flew in like red eye flight on a Friday, you know, to Mer to Myrtle Beach.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: So it was Thursday to Friday.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: And then Saturday I ran the marathon, and it was my fastest time.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Yay! Yay! I mean, it's because it was all shaded and downhill and great weather.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: So I can't claim, you know, my ability.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: But it's done, it's over.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: After six months of training for what I thought was B3 marathons, it was one.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: But good for you.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: We're done.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: All that said, we appreciate your patience as we've been away for a little bit, but I say it was intentional because we wanted a very deliberate lineup.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: We did.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to our season two finale.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: So our season one finale was Mary Queen of Scots, a big one.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: We always like to end with really episode 13.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: There's always gonna be a big one, and they're always gonna be two parts.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: We've got a bigger one.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: One that we said in our probably first season that we weren't ready for, and we gotta do it right.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Gotta do it right.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: I've been water dropping this a lot.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: If you follow us on at beheaded.podcast, if you don't, you should.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you?
7:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Um we uh made some French slash British snacks tonight to represent her French upbringings.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: And then her British downfall.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Downfall in the English.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: We played some green sleeves.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Green sleeves.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And we have been reading and watching and absorbing and immersing and bathing and licking and just sweating.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: And spending half our day at Hamdecourt Palace.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Anne Boleyn.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Anne Boleyn.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Anne Boleyn.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Queen Anne, Queen Consort of England, Anne Boleyn.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Second wife to King Henry VIII.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: I just got chills.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: One of the most important women in history.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm nervous.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm nervous.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Don't be.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: You can't show them you're nervous.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: This is fine.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm confident.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we kept saying.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, we know this story.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: And I know I know I think the I'm sure we'll have a mix of listeners.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Some listeners who are like, I also want to know the story.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: But like me, it's like I can hear this story so many times, and I still cannot get enough literature on it, cannot watch enough renditions and movies and TV shows because I feel like you're always learning something new.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: You're always getting a little bit of a different perspective on it.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then welcome to those who really don't know who Anne Boleyn is, and welcome to the club because you are going to love her.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: You're going to love her and be obsessed with her.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: And when I get your t-shirt on every book, yes, I'm going to wear my t-shirt when we film part two.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: We're not going to see it.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: No, we'll take a picture, we'll post it.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: I got you that.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: You did.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: You did.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, we also, for part two, can I say that we're gonna have a we can.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're really excited because we have a very special guest.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to reveal yet who she is.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she is someone of who knew who who like legitimately has more reason to know more about her than we do.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Truly.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: She's a little bit more professional than we do.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: And she is not.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, she actually was a listener of the show first, so fan of us.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: And then uh, we know got in touch with her kind of over the years, you know, through different messages.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, it has been.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: It's been years since we've been in touch with her.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: And we finally were like, you know what, you have enough legitimacy and like you know we're gonna be able to do that.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: We're probably more professional to talk about Gimbalyn than we are, so we have she'll be joining us for part two, which is our favorite part that we all love.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, which is really funny.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Same thing with Mary Queen of Scots with part one, part two.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Part two has more listeners than part one.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what the hell guy?
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Don't just jump to the execution.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: You have to get the full story.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: You gotta know the background, you gotta know the upbringing.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna find all of you who did not.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a lot, I don't know.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: There is a lot.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of listeners.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: But that is true.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just honestly, I think you're a psychopath if you listen to part two and not a part one.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: What's wrong with you?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: I need to, I'm gonna find it by city and do it.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make a data log and then come for you.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna put like wanted posters in that city.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: These people who just psychos that only listen to part two listen to like or watch like the sequel of a movie but not the original.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: But that's like watching a series finale.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: That's like jumping to Toy Story 4 and not watching the first.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: No character development.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you doing?
11:01
SPEAKER_00: So don't do that.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And if you have friends that were those people, please tell us.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: We'll find them.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: We'll get them.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Execute them.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And execute them.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, before we start, Queen Anne, can I get some more wine?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we didn't even talk about our snacks.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: We like we said, we had a mix of snacks.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, we had Oh, I posted some pics of our mind.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Go look at that.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: This is her Dobby glass.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: I said, Do you want a it's hard to roll out of there?
11:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I said, I said, do you want a Dobby glass or a non-dobby glass?
11:38
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, Dobby because it makes me stronger.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: So Dobby the house cell for those who are incompetent in the case.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: I also I have a I have an adult glass that has a stem on it, you know.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't do stems with my wine.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: I actually we've learned this.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Megan can't have stems on her wine glass.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: I actually break most things.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: A, break it, B, spill it, C, what's the third thing you can do with a stem glass?
12:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: Give me a sec.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Never mind.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna we have a lot to go over.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: We need to rein it in.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Rain it in.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Get it.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Rain.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: You're so clever.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: We are.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And you, I think you're the only one who understands it.
12:19
unknown: I get it.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: All right.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna jump right into the story.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Go for it, Elizabeth.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: And as I typically do, we're gonna cover early life first.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh obviously this is a part one, so we're gonna end.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to tell you where we're gonna end, but we're not gonna end, obviously, with the execution, because that's for next time.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: So if you're looking for that, that's part two.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: But don't be one of those weirdos who only listens to part.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Sickles who only like the death and the blood.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: I get it now.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so we've raised these people.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: What did we do?
12:48
SPEAKER_01: We created a monster.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: We're sorry.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: So, Anne Volyn.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: So, Anne Vlyn, and this is still baffling to us that we do not know the exact year she was born.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a debate.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: It's a debate between scholars.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: It's actually a debate.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And I hate to like already kick it off with like, oh, scholars debate, but this is true.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: There's gotta be a lot of that.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: The majority of people think that she was born in 1501, right?
13:09
SPEAKER_01: But there are some people that argue that it was a little bit later, potentially 1507-ish.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, some people say it might have been July.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: It kills us that we don't have the actual date of her birth.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: I wish we knew.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Personally, my birthday is in late June.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: I wanna believe that she's an early July birthday, so we're both cancers together.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Can I also just say Elizabeth is wearing a full-on like green ornate dress?
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Are you pointing out my green sleeves?
13:34
SPEAKER_00: You have green sleeves with a pearl, god-awful necklace.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: This was my grandmother's.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: The one she's living.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Does she listen to the podcast?
13:44
SPEAKER_00: She's living.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't think she knows what a podcast is.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: It isn't the most tasteful of necklace.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: I did take it off when I went to the grocery store today.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Which is, I think, a sign.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: And but it looks like little crowns on it.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, I just have to say, I know that you're like Boleyn blood is pumping through you, and I appreciate the look for tonight.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: You feel it today.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: You feel the Boleyn blood today.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't know what that means, we'll get into it.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: The long story short, I have some Boleyn heritage in me.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about it.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so we're still on her birthday tonight.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna get through it.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: We're 18 minutes and we're still on her birthday.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're gonna get through it.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so 1501 is what we're going with.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go with she was a cancer that was born in early July.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: That's what we think.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
14:31
unknown: Great start.
14:32
unknown: All right.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm wearing green sleeves, it's fine.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so okay, her father was Thomas Boleyn, who eventually becomes the first Earl of Wiltshire.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And sorry if I'm saying that wrong, Wiltshire.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And then her mother was Lady Elizabeth Howard.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: So she was the daughter of Thomas Howard, the second Duke of Norfolk, which this will all come into play later with the names, but just remember that.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Howard, mother and father.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So she grew up uh at Heaver Castle in Kent in England.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, she had an older sister, Mary Boleyn, and a younger brother, George.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: Again, all of their dates are not quite documented, but this is believed to be the order.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: So it went Mary, Ann, and then younger brother, George.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and overall, the Boleyns were a very well-respected family in English aristocracy.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, their father, again, Thomas, was a favorite of King Henry VII.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: He was a diplomat who was very gifted with languages, so he was seen as this very kind of cosmopolitan guy who knew his way around court.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh they actually, you know, have this really distinct coat of arms for their family, which is kind of an upside-down red V with three bulls on it.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: So imagine like the upside-down red V, two bulls on either side of the V, and one bowl kind of in the middle of V.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: And our wine has a bowl on it.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, if you didn't see our Instagram post-down if I took a picture of that one.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: I did, I put it on mine.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: But we got this wine um that had a very intentional bull on it.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And modern spellings of bowling might be bowl in, like B-U-L-L-E-N or I-N.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: The bowl.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so the bull was kind of the representation of the family, which I think is, you know, important.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: They're strong and they're powerful and they're seeking some sort of glory.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Like it's kind of a very going for it here.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: So so this is the family.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: They're they're again um rated very highly kind of among all the English noble families.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, so until 1513, uh, she actually went to the Netherlands.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: She was educated uh in this ward of the Margaret of or her name was Margaret of Austria, and uh Margaret of Austria loved Anne Boleyn, and they think she might have even been too young to be at this kind of school.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: So she was very much a favorite of Margaret.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Um she studied a lot of different things there from an early age arithmetic, family genealogy, grammar, history, reading, writing.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Um she also was very good at dancing, embroidery, etiquette specifically, singing, dancing.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Um she was good at kind of some of the boyish stuff, so cards, chess, dice, archery, horseback riding, hunting, falconry, which would become a symbol for her later.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Um so she grew up with a very well-rounded education, not just like in the household duties and not just in the classroom, but doing all these kind of you know, guy-ish manly-ish things as well.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, so she again grew up there in the Netherlands.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: But it was about 1514 that her father, Thomas, decided that she needed to go to France.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: So he arranged for her to uh basically attend to Ken Henry VIII's sister, Mary, who was going to marry Louis the Seventh of France.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: So he said, Hey, go to France, wait on his sister Mary.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna be married uh maid of honor there.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Um and then eventually she became maid of honor to her stepdaughter, Queen Claude of France.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: So she was there for about nine years.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Um at French court, it's very different.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's you know, it's not English, it's not the Netherlands, and there it is all about fashion and art and poetry and literature and religious philosophy.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And so at a young age, she's already becoming immersed in these very deep subjects.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: She's already learning kind of French culture and again how to talk to people at court, and not it not in a silly girlish way, but a very sophisticated way from a young age.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: So, from a young age in French court, she already has this very firm grasp of like flirtation and courtly love.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And she gets very she gets a lot of attention.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's this mild and again Well, we'll talk about how she looks in a little bit.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: But we're not sure how attractive she was.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: There are varying accounts on her looks, but for a moderately pretty girl, she gets a lot of attention, and it's mostly because she can really capture people with her words and her wit and her culture.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: So she is in this French court.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Um she gets very well acquainted with this lady, Marguerite de Navare, if I'm saying that correctly.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: That was King Francis I's sister.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Um and Marguerite was very much a patron of kind of humanists and reformers.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, they were people that didn't really uh side with the Catholic Church of Rome.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: They were the ones that were saying, hey, there's this other element of Christianity that we can explore.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Um they even like kind of verged on heresy to a certain extent because they believed in this certain kind of Christian mysticism and again breaking away from Rome type of, I guess, thought.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So so Anne kind of grew up in this, again, as a at a very young age, al already questioning her religious upbringing and the Catholic Church.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: And well, why can't everything be more about this and the humanist movement and the reformist, and you know, why do we have to listen to a pope who is supposed to decipher the word of God?
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't we go this other direction?
19:42
SPEAKER_01: And so she she grew up amongst all this kind of free thinking in France.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And uh to get a little more into what Anne looked like when she became a woman and you know who she was in this court, um, she was about average height.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: They said Anne was about five three.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: She was slender, um, very long, dark, straight hair, uh, olivish skin tone, a very strong nose, thin lips with kind of a wide smile.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they say when she was young, she was very sweet and cheerful, you know, mostly when she was in the Netherlands in her early days at French court.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: But when again she got older and she kind of got more exposed to these more sophisticated, I guess, ways of being, um, she became known as very brilliant, very charming, uh, very elegant.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, they they thought she was very lively, opinionated, passionate about her views.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: So she often got into debates with people and like really fought for what she believed in.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: And people allowed it because she was so charming.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, that this two didn't come across as cross or confrontational or bitter.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: They were like, wow, like this girl's pretty, she's young, she's lively, and she has her own thoughts.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, what a what a thing to think about, you know, like what a what an interesting concept.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, so she got all this attention very, very young.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And so by the time that she was about to leave French court, she was known for her keen wit, her sharp tongue.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Also, kind of her bad temper though.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: Because as she got older, it started to you know to get to a point where she would not be afraid of debate to the point where she would kind of piss people off.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: So they would say she had like a sharp tongue, a quick temper.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: So um uh so again, like you know, she wasn't outright reformist quite yet.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, they do say that she was very devoted to um the Virgin Mary in Catholic faith.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Um so overall, she thought, you know, papacy and and Rome, she thought they were a corrupting influence on Christianity, but she was also very devout to Mother Mary, to the Virgin Mary.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: So she had some traces of her Catholicism kind of still left in her upgroup bringing in her belief.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: So, all that being said, here's her time in French court, which by the way, we're all like, were you at French court or were you actually uh Hogwarts in the Slytherin house?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: We think, and I'm gonna ask you this too, Megan.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you think if she was at Hogwarts, she'd be a Slytherin?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, 1,000%.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: The fact that her she's known for like her green slither.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And her color and her ambition.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Every time they describe Anne, they in the balloons they say they were a very ambitious family.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Anne had ambition.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm surprised her representation was a falcon and not a snake, to be honest.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, yeah.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: That would have blown my mind if it was a snake.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And I would have been like, Yeah, see, I'm this white falcon.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Actually a snake.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I think that's a great description of her.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And just kind of intriguing more than anything.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Very complex.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think we were just actually last night we were watching this documentary with Susanna Liscombe.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's my favorite documentary.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's called Henry and Ann.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: The Lovers Who Changed History.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: The Lovers Who Changed History.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: If you have not seen it, highly recommend.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: It's very good.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Two part, like two episodes.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Great.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: And so one thing that really stuck with me that Susanna had said in her documentary was like, people think that she was either this man-eater, like, you know, love-hungry, ambitious person, or she was this pious, devout, you know, uh person who was just trying to do the right thing.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: But she's like, but can't she be both?
23:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's true.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: It's like we always think of her, at least if you've heard of her in other contexts, in one of those two ways.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: Like she was either this sexual predator trying to get ahead, or she was just this victim of circumstance who was actually a very devout person.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, but she could be both.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Like she could have this part of her that's, you know, again, upbringing in France where she's a free thinker and she's like, well, why do women have to be quiet?
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, why do I have to be pious and why can't I think about religious reform?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: But she's also, again, innocent and naive, and when she goes to English court, she's not quite sure of what she's supposed to do.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: So again, she's a very complex person overall, which makes her all the more alluring when in 1522, January, she sails from Calais to England.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: So she officially shows up to England.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Her older sister Mary, um, she was actually with her in France throughout most of this time.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Um pretty busy.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Doing a lot, yeah.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Like side note, let's talk about Mary before we get into Anne at the English court.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: But Mary, again, was the eldest sister of the Boleyn family.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: She was with Anne during her time in France, and Mary was said to be a little bit of a rumaround.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: And again, not fully verified, not a lot of evidence behind that, other than hearsay and rumors, but we're pretty sure she was the mistress to France.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: I just want to say this first.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, not to interrupt.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, rumors pretty confirmed that she was the mistress to the king of France.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: I like that I don't like.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: I dislike.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: There's this perception of Mary that she's a little bit of like, like you said, a runaround or like I hate to say the word slut, but like I hate that word.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: No, that's what I'm saying.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Is I think there is some slut shaming about Mary.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think we don't know also how much was she forced into those positions.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Her family might have coaxed her into being like, hey, why didn't she get close to the king of France?
24:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think she was very much encouraged to be in certain places at certain times and seduce powerful men.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think that was just a tool.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: They used the Bullens used their daughters as tools to rise.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And putting them in bed with kings.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: What noble family didn't, you know what I mean?
25:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's always this perception of like Mary and a little bit of Anne, like you said, are like these sexual predators and like really slither around court and they're just trying to look pretty and have conversations with the right men.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: I think they were also trying to survive in royalty and exactly life.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, as a woman in these times, it is about survival and advancement.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like whatever you can do to survive and get ahead, like that's what you do.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: And their uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, and their dad, Tommy, daddy Tommy.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Daddy Tommy.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, they did use their daughters as pawns, like they did use their daughters as ways to rise the families.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: I also have like a bit of sympathy for both of those.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh, totally.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And you can see it either way, too.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can see both, I guess, sides of history.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you've ever read uh, what was it?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, The Other Boleyn Girl.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: But the Other Boleyn Girl is primarily about Mary, and uh the whole beginning talks about her time at France, and she's uh in that book, she's kind of like, why do people think that I'm the way that I am?
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't have these liaisons in France, I didn't have these affairs, like I was just there because I was getting educated there.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there is that again train of thought out there that's like she was just there as a young girl.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Just because she's there and available and pretty doesn't mean she's sleeping with the king.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of rumors, and maybe it's you know, somewhat confirmed that she was at some point having an affair with the king of France.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they say that that's why she was taken back to England.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: So she was taken there a couple years before Anne came back to England to be like, hey, you're gonna end these affairs now, and you're gonna actually establish a life for yourself.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're not French, you're English, and come back to English court and like make a life for yourself here.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, so 1522, Anne comes back to England, Mary's already there, and so when Anne comes back, she's expected to marry her cousin, which again is very common at the time to marry cousins.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: It was common up until freaking the 1800s to marry your cousins.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: But she she was uh betr not betrothed, but they were gonna eventually set her up with James Butler, who is an Irish cousin of hers, and it was literally over a land dispute.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: It was like her, her family, you know, was having this dispute, and her father was like, Well, here's Anne Boleyn, take her.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: So you can end this dispute.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: But negotiations weirdly came to a halt when she came to England.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: So she came there with the expectation that she would marry her cousin and settle down, but when she got there, this marriage didn't happen.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: Her sister was already there, also not married.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So they're like, Okay, like, what now?
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Now we're in English court.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Her sister eventually uh did marry uh a man named William Carey and kind of went off into the sunset.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: But after she was married, she becomes Henry VIII's mistress.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: So Mary, even though she is officially married and taken away from court in a way, she's also now the mistress of King Henry VIII.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: So people think that Mary's children, either one or both of them, are Henry's.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not confirmed that you know they were ever her husbands because right after she married, Henry was like, Hey, you know what?
28:19
SPEAKER_01: You're cute mistress, like, come over and sleep in my bed every night.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, so Anne had seen this.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: She when she arrived in court, she was she knew her sister was the mistress, and she was like, Okay, here's the situation.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm the sophisticated, you know, English bred, French or like English-born French-bred type of girl, and now I'm here seeing my sister essentially just be a concubine to a king.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I get my footing in this whole era?
28:48
SPEAKER_01: So at the beginning, she's just very, you know, coy, I guess.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: She didn't really get the king's attention for for much of the time.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: She was just there to really enjoy herself and be in court and mingle and use her again, Frenchly, courtly, f flirtatious ways to go by.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it wasn't until she debuted in this pageant.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, Anne has been in court for a couple years already, a few years, and Henry's finally starting to notice her.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Kind of a cool fact, which I didn't realize, I think.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: I always thought that court was a bit of a condensed version of like a small high school or something.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there are a lot of people there.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And there could be up to 200 servants.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, two, like two, well, overall, like 2,000 people overall in the court.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Of those could be 200 noble women and then a hundred like a thousand noble men.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the fact that Henry really spotted her amongst everyone because she was kind of still like in the crowds at this point.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: But something that the British court loved to do was put on these plays.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: And we need to remember what is the court like right now.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: So this is late 1520s, and Henry's thriving.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Henry is in his glory.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: He's handsome, he's athletic, he's tall, he's about six foot two, which is very tall for back then.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: He's got his red hair, his like his beard, he's very strong, he's great at sports, he's a jouster, he's a tennis player, he's a fencer, he also loves music, he loves making music, he loves singing, he loves poetry, he loves reading, he loves comedy, he loves acting, like just a truly well-rounded man who's handsome and tall and the king of England.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And at this time, this isn't like the nasty Henry that we all kind of envision.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: He's not like this big fat guy that has a terrible temper.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: He was very liked at this time.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Like the whole everyone loved him.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: The people loved him, people thought he was great.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: So they put on a play, and the purpose is that each courtier is playing a different personality, right?
31:03
SPEAKER_00: And the noble women are all different, like positive things, like you know, patience, beauty, honor, and then Anne Boleyn is playing perseverance.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: You actually have a very funny tie to this.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Quick little like side story.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: So, and I didn't really know this until later, but when I was in college, um I had this initiation for uh Greek honor society, and it was like, you know, a thing that happened at sunrise.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: They take you to the clock tower on campus and they give you each a virtue.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's important because there's only six guys and six girls that are a part of this society, and they go around and they give you each a virtue.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And they come to me and they're like, your perseverance, and this is why, and they give you a whole reasoning as to your story and blah blah blah.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I was like, that's really cool.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: That's such a weird coincidence.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even know this story until I met Megan because obviously at that point, like I knew of Anne Boleyn, I knew that I was related to her in some way.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: And when I met Megan, I don't even know how it came up in conversation or why I would tell you that story, but I said something about, oh yeah, like I we had this really funny ceremony and I was given perseverance.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: And she's like, Wait, what?
32:11
SPEAKER_01: She's like, Well, you mean you were assigned like a virtue and the virtue was perseverance.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: She was like, Do you understand that that's Anne Boleyn's?
32:19
SPEAKER_01: You just have all these weird ties to her, and it creeps me out every time we hear a new one.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is weird.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, anyway.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Our family coat of arms, like all these strange things that just are very much a liar.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: She's she's a cancer, I know it.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: We don't know that.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: She is a soldier, and I'm sorry.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: We do know that.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: We do know that.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: So Anne's playing Perseverance, and Henry is just completely enthralled with her.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: And this was really like the starting point of their relationship, we could say.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: So, what's going on with Henry?
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Henry's married.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Let's not forget this.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes, very married.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: Very married.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: He's been married to Catherine of Aragon, gosh, altogether, what, 17 years or so?
32:59
SPEAKER_00: At this point, yeah.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: About 17 years.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: I could be kind of off on my years and my dates.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Almost 20 years.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: But the issue in why Henry is starting to look elsewhere is Catherine has not done the one most important thing that she needs to do as a queen.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Give an air.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Give an air.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: A male heir.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: And despair.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: And despair neither.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Neither of those things.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Poor Queen Catherine has miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Over one daughter married.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: We all know about Queen Mary I, their only living daughter.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: But that's not enough.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Because to actually keep on the legacy, as Henry knows, because his older brother died, who was Catherine's previous husband, died at a young age.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: And if Henry doesn't have an heir, then his legacy is gone.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: That's the most important thing to him.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's not for lack of trying.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Poor Catherine of Aragon had what, nine miscarriages?
34:01
SPEAKER_00: A lot.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Am I off on that number?
34:03
SPEAKER_00: No, that sounds about right.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I've tried everything down 17 years.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Numbers a little bit more.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: So you figure one or two a year, you know.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: One of their sons.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Not correct math.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but they you know what I mean.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, babies twice a year.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, two times a year, you have a baby.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they did have a son named Henry, and he only lived for 52 days.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: So it was just really, really terrible and a big dark cloud over their marriage.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And Henry's starting to look elsewhere.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Um so he's had a relationship already with Mary Boleyn.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And now he's pursuing Anne, right?
34:38
SPEAKER_01: And after this pageant, a lot of young men wanted to pursue her.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's kind of her coming out party where she debuted to court, and people were like, Wow, have you seen this Anne Boleyn girl?
34:47
SPEAKER_01: And who's the first one in line?
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Like Henry.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Okay, I gotta get this new girl.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: This new girl from French court, pretty cute.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Wee.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: We bonjour.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Anne isn't gonna play that card though.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: No, and again, Anne is smart, Anne is witty, and she's not going to follow in her sister's footsteps.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she saw what happened to her sister, who inevitably gets pregnant.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: We are assuming by her husband, but who knows?
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
35:16
SPEAKER_00: We never know if her son is actually William Carey's or if it's King Henry's.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Which side note, my uncle Dennis, has the brightest red hair ever and looks like King Henry VIII.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And that's from the Mary Boleyn line of succession.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying, and my cousin Karina, same red hair.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So Anne Boleyn is very much not going to give in to Henry VIII because she is not gonna go down that road and just be the mistress.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: She wants more, and her eye is on the crown because she sees what's going on with Catherine and she's like, I might have a foot in here.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Interesting enough though, this isn't this wouldn't actually be her first betrothal.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: No, she actually had already a secret betrothal.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: So as soon as she, you know, came to England and it didn't work out with her cousin uh James Butler, she actually was betrothed for a while in secret to this guy, Henry Percy.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: So Henry Percy at the time had this father, well, at the time, he always has a father, but his father came in and was like, You can't marry this girl, like, what is she gonna do for you?
36:16
SPEAKER_01: So um he actually kind of detoured that from happening.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, so she again did not have any intention of coming to England and capturing the king's affection.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: She was there for her cousin, she secretly betrothed Henry Percy.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: So by the time she is in English court, um, and after the pageant, she actually became a maid to Catherine Varagon, by the way.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: So she was Catherine's lady in waiting.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so she at that point was very much in the forefront, and Henry saw her all the time.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Was like, I'm not gonna have anything to do with you.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: I've seen what you've done to my sister.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: I didn't come here for you.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: So had zero interest and was playing very, very hard to get with Mr.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Henry VIII.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: Very, very fascinating though, is that there's all these love letters between them.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's really in 1526, I think their relationship starts to flourish.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Because once again, Henry is no longer quite interested in his own wife, and Anne's picking up on this, and she's thinking, I could actually be Queen of England if I play my cards right.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And of course, her uncle and her father are very much pushing for this.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Also telling her that.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: A lot of debate that likely they were um kind of like the orchestrators behind this, also wanting to move their family forward.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I think there actually was a very true love between Henry and Anne.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, she obviously was just impressed by his position, and he's young and handsome and athletic and tall and all those things, you know, and he was so infatuated by her that she was like, you know, maybe this could work.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think she did have a spark for him.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, you know, and she she did play a lot of games with him where she would get his letters and then maybe she'd leave for Heaver unexpectedly and be gone from court for a few weeks.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Like she would do all these things where she wasn't chasing him like a puppy.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she she wasn't saying all the things back to him like he wanted.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: It's actually interesting because you can recover a lot of Henry's letters to her.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to find anything from Anne to Henry.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: It looks like Henry was chasing her, yeah.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: And she was playing hard again.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what was really important is because she wanted to keep her virtue.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Like she wasn't going to go and sleep with him because she knew that the minute that she did that, the whole game was gone.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: And he would only marry her if he knew that she was virtuous and true and virgin.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: And at this point, too, remember that you know, the a lot of men assume the women were the one that decided the sex of their babies, you know.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: So he was like, Well, Catherine of Aragon sure as hell isn't getting me a son.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: And like, I already had one son with this, I don't know what she was, a lady in waiting that she had a bastard child with.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: So it's I know it's not me, I can produce sons.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: So Anne also had this weird illusion of like, hey, if like we wait long enough, I can give you a son.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: I know I can.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: And like you can't promise that.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: But there was enough, you know, again, I guess, romanticism around it to where he's like, oh, this is the woman who's gonna give me a son.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I know it.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: So Henry starts thinking, how can I divorce Catherine?
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: And he turns to Woolsey first.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Cardinal Wolsey.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Cardinal Woolsey, who, you know, is a cardinal, so he has ties with the Church of or sorry, with the Catholic Church in Rome.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: And so the whole thing is Henry's Catholic, Catherine's Catholic, Catholic Catherine's from Spain.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: So they have to get a legal divorce through the Pope.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: And the Pope is like, no.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh nope.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: There is never Catherine Virgo's a Spanish princess, very Catholic, like very dedicated to Rome.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: There was never a divorce between a king and a queen like that before.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And so Henry starts using reasoning of, well, look at what the Bible's saying, and it said, you should not marry your brother's wife.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly what happened was King Arthur died, Catherine's first husband.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so Henry picked her up.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: But Catherine always said, but I was a virgin.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: We never consummated the marriage because he was sick and then he died, and he was 15 when he died.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Like we never consummated that.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: But Henry's now believing that that can't be true.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: And the reason is because, like, we're cursed.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: We're not having sons because we're cursed, because I should have never married you in the first place.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: You weren't a virgin, and God has it out for us.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And the Bible also does say something to the effect of if you do marry or lay with your brother's wife or see her naked or whatever it is, that you will be cursed with basically you'll be childless.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: You'll be childless.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, so that is very clearly laid out in the Bible.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: And so he's not going for divorce at this point, he's going for annulment.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: He's saying, not only are we trying to separate our marriage, but we're saying that this was never okay in the first place.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: So it needs to be annulled because our whole relationship's null and void.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: And even though they did have Mary, yeah, the problem was they didn't have a sex.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Childless means no boys.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: No boy.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: That's all that matters.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, Ann and Henry are like very open in public with their relationship and just pretty much snubbing the queen altogether.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: And there's a ton of tension.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Tension in the court, tension in the country.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: People hate ambling.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she's again, like not just okay, I'm with you at parties, she's publicly with him.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, during, I don't know, like meetings and any kind of making decisions, making decisions with him.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: So all matters of kind of like state and policy and big things.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Like Catherine's just like sent off to her room or something, and Anne's there.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Anne's his girlfriend at this point.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Like if we're talking in modern terms.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: And I love it because some people like I feel like, oh, like even the song from Six the Musical, they're like, politics, not my thing.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Anne loved politics, and Anne was a woman just in the wrong time.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Speaking her mind, said she could have had these ideas.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: So she has this idea and she kind of shoves it in Henry's face of like, okay, so the Pope is denying your annulment, but read this book.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: This book tells you that the king should be above the Pope.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: So why are you listening to him?
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: And that's when Henry gets it in his brain of like, why do we need to be with the Catholic Church?
42:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Why can't I break away from them?
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Our entirely own thing here.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, and there was a lot of uh controversy surrounding Anne's actual beliefs.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, was it her ambition to be queen and to tell Henry these things so he could get an you know his marriage an old and marry her?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Or was it truly her commitment to reformation?
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Like in France, did she have such radical ideas that she really believed, again, that you know, this is the right way and gave Henry the literature to do so.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, so that's kind of a again a classic debate of like, was it because she wanted advancement or was it because it was her belief?
43:12
SPEAKER_01: But regardless, she did push all this literature on Henry.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: She did say, hey, you can start your own thing, you can be part of the Reformation, you can decide, you don't have to report to Rome anymore.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, he he got it in his head that he's like, you're right, I'm the king, I'm the divine ruler.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't need to, you know, have things checked by Rome anymore.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: So by 1531, he officially banishes Catherine from court.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: And that was a huge trial.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're gonna kind of breeze over this because the focus is Anne and we realize that, but I do think we need to emphasize the stress and the tension and like the heartbreak that went into that.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: He put his wife of almost 20 years on trial.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: And she had to like very embarrassingly like talk in front of everyone like I was a virgin before I went to.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Henry's back.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: You can't actually say all these very deeply personal things as a woman.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: And crying and saying, like, Henry, I've been devout to you.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm sorry I couldn't give you a son, but I had miscarriage after miscarriage, and our babies died.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: And now you're gonna send me off to a nunnery.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: That's what they did.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: And you know, Henry went so far too as to banish Cardinal Wolsey.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, well, not banish, but dismiss him from his position and say, Hey, like, you didn't fight for us enough for Rome, so now you're dismissed.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: So he, you know, banishes Catherine, Wolsey is dismissed from his position.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh Wolsey, they actually think he would have been executed.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: Had he not died?
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: He was up for the chopping cough.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Had he not died of illness right after they dismissed him, a lot of people think like he would have just straight up been executed because Anne was overheard to say to Henry, like, hey, anyone else who would speak this ill of you would have been executed by now.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: So she's basically saying, like, the cardinal's only protected because he's your friend and a cardinal.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: But she kind of insinuated if this was anyone else, this would be treason and he'd be gone.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: So people think his ear though.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so people think if you know Wolseley lived long enough that he would have been executed anyway.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: So Wolseley's gone, Catherine's banished.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: As soon as she's banished from court, too, all of her rooms are given to Anne.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Anne just takes over.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Anne takes over, you know.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, Anne was always so jealous of Catherine throughout their entire relationship.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: She would be mad that like you're still wearing the shirts that she was so afraid.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: She was so jealous of his wife, and it was very much like this classic tale of like the other woman coming into the relationship.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why Anne does have such a negative connotation over her.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: She does have like this, you know, people see her as this, you know, cunning and like slithery woman.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: And public support was still very much with Catherine at this time, too.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: So there was actually an incident in 1531, the same year that Catherine was banished, um, where Anne was having dinner um at a manor house on the River Thames, and she was almost seized by this angry mob of women who were coming for her.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're not the right queen, you banished our queen, we don't, you know, we're not yours, we're not your subjects.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: So she had to escape by boat on the river, like away from this dinner that she unexpectedly was at.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: So it kind of showed people were not okay with Anne being on the throne.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: And she was creating enemies in the court too.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: So there was very much like a divide.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: There was the Boleyn faction and anyone who supported the Boleyns and loved the Boleyn family and her.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So they were given titles and lands, George Rochford, George pensions, even or sorry, George Boleyn, Lord Rochford.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's got a lot of titles too.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: But you know, even Mary, her sister was given a pension, her kids were given the best education.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: So all of the Boleyns now are put on a pension.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Rising up.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, Thomas Cromwell is now in the picture.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, at first he started on Anne Boleyn's side and because he helped finalize the break with Rome.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: He he really was a big player in getting the divorce finalized.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but then eventually he's gonna turn against her.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: And then there's all these other enemies on like against Anne, and they're pretty like outspoken.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: The um basically anyone who supports Catherine, Mary, Spain, you know, Catholicism.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: All anyone Catholic versus evangelical.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: And this is where we get very political because this is now we're talking about the Reformation.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: So England has broken away.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Um they are taking down the monasteries, they are pulling the funds from the monks, they are executing the monks who are they believe were, you know, using money, you know illegitimately or you know, in corrupt ways.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: It's a whole mess.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: And I know we we again we're focusing on and so we've gone over the story a few times of just what what's happening in England, but people can argue and's the reason for it.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, they eventually just kind of get fed up with this whole mess.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: And once um Cromwell kind of finalizes the the uh divorce or annulment, whatever you want to call it, um, they decide, you know what, we're gonna get married.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: We don't care what Rome says, this is time for us to be together.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: So they actually get married in a secret ceremony on November 14th, 1532.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: And right after Anne becomes pregnant.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: So after seven years of courtship, and for her telling him, no, no, no, we can't do this, it's not right, I'm not gonna be your mistress, blah, blah, blah.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: They have the secret ceremony, she gets pregnant right away.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: That night in the bedroom.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wild times.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Wild.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Like so much, I guess, angst and aggression and whatever built up, and they're ready to go.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Let's just say it was seven years.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Seven years of courtship before they were married.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: And this is in times where people didn't live that long, folks.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Like seven years.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: She's in her 30s at this point.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, you are not that young anymore.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: So uh as soon as again they they realize she's pregnant, they finally have a lawful wedding on January 25th, so right after the new year, 1533.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and what what's funny about this, and people don't talk about it enough, at this point, Henry's married to both Catherine and Anne.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: Like they had not officially had their marriage dissolved yet.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: So And she's like often And she's she's banished, right?
49:19
SPEAKER_01: She's not there in the picture, but technically he was kind of a what do you call it, bigamist at the time.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't until May 23rd of the same year that that Catherine's marriage was officially annulled.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, Cromwell did what he could to break away from Rome and do all that, but it wasn't officially recognized that their marriage was broken up until May.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: So for a while there he kind of had two wives, whatever, no big deal.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: And May 28th, Anne was officially validated and said, Yes, you are the new wife.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go ahead and have a coronation for you.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: So June 1st, 1533, Queen Anne was crowned at Westminster Abbey.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, Catherine was officially stripped of all of her titles, and what's really cool, and we actually both of us didn't know this until we were researching in you know the past few days, but she wore St.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: Edward's crown, which was a big crown, it looks like a king's crown, you know, like with the velvet and the high arches and all that.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was only previously used for monarchs, so she was the very first consort to ever use this crown.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: The last time it was used was was when King Henry was being crowned with Catherine.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: And he used it as him, as the king.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: Huge statement.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: Right, huge statement.
50:33
SPEAKER_01: So some people think it was because that's how much power she had and she conducted herself like a man.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Other people think because she was pregnant and they assumed it was a boy because that's how highly she spoke of her fertility.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: They think it better be a boy.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: It better be a friggin' boy.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: They were like, oh, she's wearing it because she's saying I have the male heir with me kind of thing.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Either way, it was unprecedented.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: She had the St.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Edward's crown on her head.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, Ann during the coronation, like, people weren't in love with her.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: No.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: So she was expecting this huge, big, beautiful parade, and everyone's gonna be throwing flowers at her and cheering in the streets and not so much slithering.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: It was uh mildly quiet, and uh, I think Anne really got a glimpse of people were angry because they missed their old king, their Queen Catherine, who was who they thought was just eloquent and pious, pious.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Um they called Anne the Great, the concubine.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Like they had names for her.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: People didn't like her.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: People just thought, like, what are you doing, Henry?
51:40
SPEAKER_01: You're the whore, you're marrying the whore, you're marrying the concubine.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: You let this person seduce you, gross.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Like you.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: And they're not and this isn't the Henry that they're used to.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, this isn't like, you know, this is charming Harry.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you doing?
51:53
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
51:55
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, so at this point, the Pope officially excommunicates him.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: Because again, even though they've had these breaks with Rome, it wasn't until the coronation that the Pope was like, okay, you're excommunicated now.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: You are kicked out of all Catholicism, blah blah blah.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: So on September 7th, 1533, Anne gives birth to that lovely bubbling boy that they were all expecting.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: The boy named Elizabeth I.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth!
52:23
SPEAKER_01: He's uh he's here, and Henry's pissed.
52:27
SPEAKER_01: So disappointed.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: And Anne is too.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine?
52:32
SPEAKER_01: So much is writing on this.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: She's like, I convinced you for seven years I could give you a boy.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: I will give you the boy that Catherine never gave.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: And here's Elizabeth I.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: There was supposed to be a big joust celebrating the birth of the new Prince of England.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: Cancelled.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Done.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Henry was not having that's kind of messed up.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: I think he barely glimpsed at her and was just like, okay, well, next time you'll have a boy.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget your position and why you're here.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: Disappointed but forgiving.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, we didn't really want a girl, you had one, it's fine, whatever.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have a boy next time.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: So just kind of like, hmm, cool.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: I really think that this is the tipping point.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: So this is 1533.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of the first thing that goes wrong for Anne.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, truly.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: They're still in a lot of stress though.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: Because now they're talking about okay, Henry's excommunicated.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: It's really like Catholics versus Protestants in England right now.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Henry creates the acts of succession.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, which is basically the oath that we've always talked about.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: The oath.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: We talked about this a lot in the Thomas More episode.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's anyone who essentially um refused to declare Anne as the new queen and officially.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: But their marriage is valid.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: Their marriage is valid.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: If and if if they refuse your you you can't refuse.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: There's no refusing, really.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: The people that did refuse were Thomas More and John Fisher, which Thomas More.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: We know how that works.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: Another episode of ourselves.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Executed.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: Um so you can't you can't say no to this oath.
54:09
SPEAKER_01: All the subjects were required to swear it, to sign it, to to acknowledge Anne is queen.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: It's acknowledging that she's queen, Mary I is illegitimate, she's a bastard.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth I is next up for the throne, unless, of course, they have a boy, and that Henry is all ruling, all sovereign.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: No one's above him, right?
54:29
SPEAKER_00: Which is why people had a problem because he's basically saying, like, I'm above God.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: Sign this to prove it.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's a very tricky time in England, but he does become supreme head of the Church of England.
54:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, because Elizabeth is born and there is no son, it's the first somewhat of a crack in Anne and Henry's relationship.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's ironic because the qualities that made her such a great mistress and such a great companion before they were married are now the qualities that make her an unacceptable wife.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like she's like, oh, I'm gonna be like outspoken and I'm gonna tell you what I think, and I'm gonna be like cute and minxy and flirtatious at court, and all those things are great when you're not married and you're trying to get the attention of men.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: But as soon as you're married, it's like, I'm sorry, you shouldn't be speaking your mind.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm sorry, why are you here talking about state policies?
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Remember your place.
55:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, you had yeah, you had a daughter, you didn't give me a son, you don't have a say.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, remember your place, and why are you being so flirtatious at court?
55:28
SPEAKER_01: Like it all of a sudden, all the things that were so enticing about Anne are now kind of like causing a lot of friction between her and Henry.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: So Henry is starting to get frustrated.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: There's tension, there's tension in the country, there's tension with politics, religion, and now in his marriage.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: Anne has at this point two more miscarriages.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in about 1534, she has another miscarriage.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I guess her first miscarriage, I say another, but she had her first miscarriage.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: Um the dates on these are we're not always quite sure.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: Again, they didn't want to at this time, I think they were still kind of keeping it hush hush of like the fact that she is not as fertile as she was bragging about.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: So she we know she at this point has at least two miscarriages.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: And Henry's eyes start wandering.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: They do.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: It was very common for a king to take on a mistress while his wife was pregnant.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: So that part wasn't, I think, so much of a shock, but Anne wasn't okay with it.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: And let's remember Anne's temper and pride, sharp wit, all of these personality traits, she wasn't having it.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: And Henry had his eye on one of her ladies in waiting, Jane Seymour.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: Jane Seymour.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh it was uh it was a time where Anne was extremely exhausted as well because she had this great rise after seven years of courtship and finally getting her crown and then becoming pregnant, then having a girl, then having a miscarriage, and then another miscarriage.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: And now she's kind of at this time where she's like, I have to impress Henry.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: I have to keep impressing him.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: She's losing hope every time she has a failed pregnancy.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: Every day, every sexual encounter, every time he talks to another lady at court, it's a dagger to her.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: It's another cut to her, and she's like, I don't, I'm losing control fast.
57:24
SPEAKER_01: And she spent so much money on gowns and jewels and writing attire and furniture and renovating palaces and always trying to up and up and up and look how good I am and look how beautiful I am and look at my palaces.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: And so she was exhausted.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny if you again, if you've ever read read the other Boleyn Girl, it talks about her just sheer exhaust exhaustion from this because she would stay up late entertaining people and hosting these parties and dancing all night.
57:51
SPEAKER_01: Super wife, yeah, and then and then in the morning waking up at 5 a.m.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: and going hunting with Henry in her best riding attire.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and so and again, all this all throughout this, she's suffering miscarriages, she's she's grieving, she's not having, you know, the physical pain, mental pain, emotional.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, and and so it was ironic because once she became married, her motto was the most happy.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: And I think she tried to exude that until almost the day she died, where she was like, I am the most happy.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: I stay out all night, I party all night, I drink wine with you all, I gamble with you bitches.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: Like I wake up in the morning, I go out and I ride, I do it, and I smile and I say witty things.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: The one thing she can't do though is all of this would be perfect if she had a son.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
58:37
SPEAKER_00: And talking about her parties and all of that.
58:41
SPEAKER_00: So we we know Anne loves music, Anne loves dancing, Anne loves entertainment and fun, and she's got this close-knit group of people who Henry's starting to kind of like give up on.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: He's like, you know, I I don't want to party tonight.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: And Anne was still going, and she had this group of people, and jealousy's starting to come up.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: And Anne is partying with her favorite musician, Mark Smeaton.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: Mark Smeaton, Henry Norris, William Bariton, Frances Weston, and of course her ladies are there too.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And and she's doing this for attention and to make Henry maybe a little jealous, so he still gives her attention, you know.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: But at this point, he's like, I just want to kind of go to my rooms with Jane Seymour.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, but let's be clear.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: Jane has not given in to Henry.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: Not yet.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no, no.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: He's again another kind of Anne type who refuses, you know, gifts and encounters and says, no, no, I'm pious, I'm not gonna do this.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: You have a wife, blah, blah.
59:43
SPEAKER_01: Which, as we know, Henry, because he did the same thing with Anne, is like, oh no, I really do want to be with you.
59:49
SPEAKER_01: You know?
59:49
SPEAKER_01: So faster than he fell in love with Anne Boleyn, he falls in love with Jane Seymour.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: There is one incident where Henry is now doting on Jane with gifts.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: And sh he gives Jane a locket with his picture in it, and she's wearing-both of their pictures, right?
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh, is it?
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought it was just his.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so both of them.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and Anne notices it, and she rips it from her neck so hard that it broke the chain off of Jane's neck and she's bleeding, and Anne's hand is bleeding.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, but Anne's starting to break down because she realizes that her husband's flirting with Jane Seymour and it's starting to become public.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, and she can no longer keep up this image of you know, happy Anne who's who's flitting all over the place, having all these events.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: Now she's clearly becoming another jealous wife of this young courtier, this young lady.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: Tables have turned.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: And now, you know, she's the Catherine of Aragon in this situation.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, also, through all of this, Catherine of Aragon is still alive.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, should we revisit her real quick?
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: Hates Catherine and hates Mary.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: Her mortal enemy that's wearing on Henry because she truly talked about poisoning Mary.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: Why can't she just be dead?
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: She has said that about Catherine.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, she just wants to be unspoken dead.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: January 1536, her dreams come true.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: Catherine dies.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: Poor Catherine.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: Sadly, cancer of the heart.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Like literally broken heart is kind of what killed her.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_00: Because she was Henry, well, I say Henry, and kept Mary separated from her mother.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: And they died low, you know, Catherine died alone and lonely, and yeah, without Henry, without Mary.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_01: So, what does Ann and Henry do the day that she died?
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: They decide to wear yellow and celebrate with many festivities.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_01: And have a party.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: Because Anne's always having parties and proving she's the best person and the center of attention.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: I wonder what her Instagram would have looked like.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh god.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_01: Actually, I think she'd be pretty cool about it.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: She's not an attention, like she's an attention whore, but she's not.
1:02:01
unknown: Okay.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, she's she's sly about it.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: She's not gonna be in your face like influencer.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_01: She's gonna be like, yeah, I have a really cool life, but I'm not gonna tell you everything because she's mysterious and complex.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, Slytherins don't give it all away up front.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: We're more mysterious than that.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, but okay, so uh Henry and Anne both wear yellow the day after Catherine dies.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's uh they it's like the perfect situation because in England yellow is a celebratory color.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a happy color, it's a joyous color.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_01: In Spain, where Catherine of Aragon is from, it can be a morning color.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: So you wear black to weddings, but you also can wear yellow because they were having a party.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's a very like tongue-in-cheek, like very subtle way of being like, are we happy or are we mourning?
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: Like a very sneaky way of having a party and wearing yellow.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like if you were truly, truly sad, you'd probably do whatever was the most common, which was wear black.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: But no, they're wearing yellow.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: It was a statement.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like oh, are we are we upset?
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: A lot's happening in January.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: Um there's a joust, very fun joust, and as we know, Henry's a sportsman and he loves jousting.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_00: This was a turning point.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna close shortly after this and leave it as a cliffhanger.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: Cliffhanger.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: Henry's jousting and gets in a very serious jousting accident.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: And it should be noted that Anne was pregnant at this time.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: She was pregnant.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for reminding us again, her fourth pregnancy.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pregnant again.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Henry's in a jousting tournament.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_01: He gets a big blow to the head, knocks him unconscious for about two hours.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Everyone thought he died.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_01: People thought he was dead.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, and remember, this is not modern day science and documents.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: You're out for two hours in 1536.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: You're dead.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: Saying your last rights, they're making succession plans.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: They're like, And they were.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_01: They were like, okay, we gotta figure out what to do.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: So, so he's out for two hours.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: Finally, he comes to, and people think he's not the same, Henry.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: Did this blow to the head truly change his personality?
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: Which, if your frontal lobes are damaged like that in your brain, that's your personality in the front.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: That that that's where who you are, you know, how people know you is housed.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_01: So if that's damaged, God help your soul.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: And people think that the stress was so severe because of this accident that that's what caused another miscarriage from Ann.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_00: Anne found out about Henry's accident.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: And while it was an instant, but on January 29th, 1536, Anne has her fourth miscarriage.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: Even worse, she was about three and a half months pregnant.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it wasn't a little bean, it was a small fetus, and it was a boy.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: It's a boy in it.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_01: And now this is officially the real turning point.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about cracks and small turning points.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: This is where shit gets real.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_01: And people have even said that she has miscarried her savior.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_01: So people thought for sure, like, if that was a boy that had come to full term, that was born the male heir, even with Henry's crazy jousting accident, that things would have been different for her.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: Things would have been fine for her if she could have had this boy.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_01: But the jousting accident did happen.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_00: She blamed the shock of thinking that her husband died.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: She had the miscarriage of her only male son.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna leave it at that.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we end up.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: That's where we're gonna end it.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: I know that was a lot.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: It was like we were really serious.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of because we we uh because we have a lot of information.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: We we've been like very studious about this because we've read so many books and seen so many documentaries, we had to tell you all the things.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, uh some of this is uh debated between different historians, but these are the facts that we've generally agree with.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: These are the ones we like the most.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_00: These are the ones that we've we've chosen.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_00: As historians ourselves, these are the facts that we like.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: But we are going to end it there tonight.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_00: And next time you listen, we have a very special guest, and we're gonna finish it off with the pure downfall.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: All of the downfall.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: There might be a beheading.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_00: May or may not be.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: The show is called Beheaded.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_00: I think people know what happens to Ambolyn, but that is all to come in part two.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_00: Um Elizabeth, any final words?
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: Not until next time.