Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Ep. 539 – Dropping Ducks and Shooting Snipe with Winchester Ammo

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Ep. 539 – Dropping Ducks and Shooting Snipe with Winchester Ammo · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• Mike Brasher: Hey everybody, welcome back. I am your host for this episode, Dr. Mike Brasher, and we're on location down here in Louisiana, North Louisiana. I think the town is Delhi. At least I think that's what we've concluded. The locals pronounce it. And we're here on an opportunity to visit with some of our great partners, Winchester Ammunition. Winchester Ammo is the official ammo of Ducks Unlimited. Proud partner and happy to have them. on board with all of our conservation efforts, and we had an opportunity to visit with them this week. We've got a few folks here around the table, and we're going to have just a casual conversation about some of the things that we've been doing this week. We're going to talk about some of the new products from Winchester, talk about some ammo, and then one of the great things about being with folks for a couple of days is you have a lot of fun stories, have a lot of fun interactions, so we're going to touch on some of those. But first, I'm going to let my guests introduce themselves. I'll just go right here. Will Brantley: Yeah, so I'm Will Brantley. I am a freelance outdoor rider, was formerly a Ducks Unlimited employee once upon a time and worked on the magazine staff. Still do a little freelance writing for DU Magazine from time to time and a lot of waterfowl riding elsewhere and yeah, I do a lot of the freelance work covering a lot of other topics but Big duck hunter, been a duck hunter, oh, since I was in high school. And I actually kind of have some ties to this area, Northeast Louisiana. I'm from Western Kentucky. But years ago, whenever I did work for DU, my wife and I lived in Memphis, we had some really good friends who lived in West Monroe. And we had a pit lease just down the road here in Tallulah, Louisiana. And we used to come down here just about every weekend. My wife and I had kids, so our schedules were a little freer to make that drive every weekend. But we came down here and spent a lot of time hunting down here. Spent several Christmases down here, actually. So, it's the first time I've been back here in this part of Louisiana, duck hunting, in quite a few years. And we've had a good week. Mike Brasher: Well, it's great to be here with you. I know your name from some of the work that you used to do with DU. First time we've had an opportunity to meet. Anytime you can meet someone for the first time and do it over some decoys and a duck blind and shooting a few birds, that makes it even more special. So, thanks for being here, and it was great to learn a little bit more about you. So, we'll talk more about that here as we get into the episode. And here, I'll go with Jake. Jake Wallace: Yeah, Jake Wallace on the marketing team for Winchester Ammunition. And the one coming down here to run the camp this week and just been awesome to come down here and really get to use some of our new products and just get to foster our relationship. Ours with DU is one that we're proud of. Displaying that duck head on our box is something that we love and just building the relationship every chance we get. Mike Brasher: And Jake, you've been on the Ducks Unlimited podcast at least a few times. I know you were on recently with Chris Jennings. Had you been on prior to that? Jake Wallace: I don't believe so, so I'm a two-timer now. Hopefully we can get that number up, man, no. Mike Brasher: I don't think there's any jacket that comes along with the, you know, two-timer, five-timer, anything like that, but we could work on that. Jake Wallace: That's not what Chris told me last time I was on here. He said there was a jacket, maybe a hat. Mike Brasher: Well, notice that Chris is not here. That's probably why he said that. Jake Wallace: That's why he turned down the invitation, huh? Mike Brasher: Yeah, yeah. So, we certainly appreciate you hosting us here and I think we've got maybe another day. We'll figure out what the plan is for tomorrow, but we'll reflect back on kind of our great experiences here this morning and then yesterday morning. And so great to meet you, be with you on this at this place. And so we'll talk more here in a minute. And then right here across from me. Mallory Murphy: Well howdy folks, it's Mallory Murphy, D.U. 's Social Media Specialist and Digital Content Editor. And yeah, I showed up to the party this week. It's always nice to come hang out with Winchester. We've been teasing getting me on a hunt for the past few years and it finally happened. So I came on across the Mississippi from North Mississippi. It's great to be down in the great state of Louisiana. And Will, it's great to see you again. We shared a blind many moons ago when I first started here. Will Brantley: It's good to see you again. Yeah, for sure. I think we hunted together in Ballard County, Kentucky. Yeah, yeah. So, killed more ducks this week than we did that week. Oh yeah. Mike Brasher: But always good to see you. Mallory, I think you've been on an episode or two maybe at the very beginning. Mallory Murphy: Yeah, I pop in every now and then. I'm lurking in the shadows. So, I'm D's jack-of-all-trades. So, it's always nice to hop on the D podcast and say to everybody. Mike Brasher: I do want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself a little bit more because you're one of the people within Ducks Unlimited that does a lot of work and that interacts with a lot of our members, a lot of the people that follow DU on our social media channels. You're one of the people, one of the many people that contribute to the content that people find on all of our social media platforms. But you've been with DU, actually, what did we learn earlier this morning? How long have you been with DU? Mallory Murphy: Yeah, actually today is my five-year anniversary at DU. So, five years to me. Congratulations. Mike Brasher: Five-year anniversary. And you and I get to work together a fair bit. And you're also from Mississippi. And so, you grew up, I was learning a few things about you this morning. You grew up hunting. Tell us about that. When did you first get into hunting? And duck hunting wasn't your first love, right? Mallory Murphy: No, it was not. I started hunting around seven or eight years old. My family always leased out our duck hunting, so I really, really, really got into deer hunting, squirrel hunting with my dad. And I really didn't start duck hunting until I got into high school, going with friends. You know how it is with girls. You go with your boyfriends, then it kind of catches on a little bit. Yeah, so that's how I started out. Mike Brasher: Yeah. And so you made your way to duck hunting along the way and you've been familiar with Ducks Unlimited, our banquet system, the conservation work that we do for a long period of time. But then you made your way to, I guess I have to say the name of the school, Ole Miss. You made your way to Ole Miss. Yes. Hotty toddy. What kind of degree do you have? A lot of people think of Ducks Unlimited, at least from our conservation standpoint, I think they think about biologists and people that have those kinds of degrees. But there are a lot of different educational backgrounds and skills required to run our organization to do all the things that we do. And so talk about yours and some of the other people in the communications department. What kind of degrees do y'all have? Do you bring to the organization? Mallory Murphy: I think people always say, how did you end up getting a print journalism degree? But then you started working in social media. And I think that to do something like social media or anything in communications really, I think you should step out of like the normal marketing degree, advertising degree. really, really, really deep dive into what you want to do. I knew I always wanted to do something in the hunting industry. So, I was like, maybe I should go do marketing, you know, start working for one of these great companies, maybe Winchester, you never know. So, I started doing that and then I realized that I do not like sitting in business class. I don't know why I have to take accounting. I don't know why I have to take economics to sell a product. So I've always loved stories and telling stories and reading books and deep diving into anything. I know if anybody knows anything about me, I'm a big history buff. So I'm always, I'm a very, very, very curious being. So I was like, I'll just, why don't I just write about. the adventures that I go on and the things that I love to do. So I ended up getting a print journalism degree. I specialized in magazine service. I actually worked in a hunting store in Oxford for about two years after I graduated college. And then D Magazine had an opening for a digital content editor and I was like, well, I don't really like digital. I'm more of a print person. But Yeah, you know, I can do it. Then I ended up interviewing and Matt Young is our editorial director of the magazine. So I started talking to him more about everything and we ended up having some of the exact same professors. I went through the exact same magazine program that he did. And then started working for DE, luckily got the job. Actually, this is a funny story, I got the job offer from Matt Young while I was driving a tractor. So, I was running the tractor off the road. I was bumming around helping dad and them. So, that was a pretty fun time right there. Mallory Murphy: It was around October is when I interviewed. Hadn't heard anything back for a while and then he called me. I think it was mid-November. And I was like, he was like, you can start as soon as you can. And I was like, man, well, I'm from around Quitman County. So the rut was just about to start. I knew I was getting ready for deer hunting. I was like, Um, I was like, I need to tie up some loose ends. You know, I just need to finish a few things out. Um, can I start maybe mid-December? I just got, I just got a lot I have to do to just get ready for it. And Matt was like, oh yeah, absolutely. Whatever you want to do, that's fine. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to throw up before I actually started working. Does Matt know that story? I think he figured it out. I think he figured it out. I might have told him in passing. It's been a while. But that was a fun story to tell. Mike Brasher: I'll make sure that he listens to this episode. He might learn a few things. And so Jake, I'm looking here at the three of us, Will, Mallory, Jake, and I'm sort of the odd person out, at least in terms of Which is the really weird thing that I'm also the co-host or the host of this communication platform here on this episode. Y'all are the communication experts. I'm not. I'm like the trained scientist who went to school to learn about duck ecology and conservation. And so it's really weird to be the person asking the question to the people that are trained for this area, right? So, but Jake, you and Mallory, I guess, have worked together a little bit on some of the social media content and maybe some of our marketing and advertising. Tell us a little bit about that. One thing I will say is I encourage people to go listen to the earlier episode with you. We talked a lot on that episode about your personal story, and so we don't necessarily have to cover all of that. It's a fascinating story. Your competitive shooters still are. I don't know if you still actively compete, do you? Jake Wallace: Yeah, no, I still actively compete. So we're taking a little bit of a break. My wife and I just had our first baby a little over a year ago. So it took a little break from that focus on shooting, but our focus off of shooting onto the kid, but you know, it's a, it's a cool way and how I got into Winchester. You know, we've worked Mallory and I in passing where we at D-U-X or Ducks, I think is what you called it. Yeah, D-U-X. D-U-X. Kind of in a little chaotic capacity there. I totally forgot about that. We rubbed shoulders. But you know, where my role really comes in is I help our digital team with a lot of their content. So what I do is I have my hands and make sure our content is consistent and we have the right brand messaging. consistency across all of our content and all of our platforms, whether that's TV, social, print advertising. So, you know, in that same vein, you know, we try to really coordinate those things and we, you know, push some stuff over to DU when we have some things come out. We had a great piece that you guys helped us with on Winchester Life, our TV show. We did a DU profile and just, you know, things like that, being a good partner, giving you guys content, you guys give us a lot of content on stuff like this. So, that's really, you know, relationships are invaluable in our line of work and, you know, we try to foster that every chance we get. Mike Brasher: And so, from the relationship standpoint, Ducks Unlimited is far from the only entity in this space that you work with. Like, how many, when you think about all the people that you work with and all the different relationships you have to you have to pay attention to, that you want to pay attention to, that you begin to develop friendships through. Like, how many different entities do you work with, Ballpark? Jake Wallace: Man, entities is tough because it's, you know, we have 50 plus people on Team Winchester, and that could be everything from, you know, world-class competitive shooters to social media content creators. Really, the best people in their respective fields within our industry. and end use. And then you have organizations on top of that, you know, DU being one of them that are long, long tenured relationships, to say the least. But man, it's hard to put a number on it. And, and our brand is so highly requested that, you know, we really try to never say no to people within reason, to keep that horse and rider at the top of people's mind. Mike Brasher: And let's see, I guess where I want to, I don't know a whole lot about, like I said, this communication space and the advertising and marketing, what does an average day look like for you? And does it vary throughout? I guess it does, depending on what time of year it is, right? Jake Wallace: I think all the times of year are busy. If you start off, you know, we have shot really early January coming out of hunting season, so we're corralling all the things for that. Then you go from that shortly after into turkey season, where you put a big emphasis on, you know, Longbeard being the king of spring and and getting out there and fostering relationships with some of those conservation groups that are in that space. And then right after that, we go into shooting season, you know, and we are the leader in the shooting sports, whether that's pistol shooting, clay target shooting. We just acquired white flyer targets, so that adds another level, that adds another dynamic to our business for sure. And then right after that, we're in hunting season and nobody's in the office and we're all out building relationships, gathering content, trying to do the best we can to, you know, get our end consumers and our end users the best products out there on the shelf so they can go be successful, whether that is on the range, in the field, in whatever aspect they choose to use our stuff in. Mike Brasher: So Mallory, there's a little bit of a story that we kind of encountered this week. I want to ask you about sort of the the way you interact with our partners using sort of Winchester as an example in this story. So I do a little bit of social media here and there, and I try to be the good partner and, you know, play a little bit of a role in this for Ducks Unlimited. And so we're going to talk about some snipe punning a little bit later on. Legitimate snipe punning, not the one where we hold the bag and all that kind of stuff. Jake Wallace: They're real folks. Mike Brasher: That's right. But I had a photo of three snipe that we that we had shot yesterday and I posted it on like an Instagram story and I think I tagged Mallory and I was sitting over in the sitting in the chair and Mallory says, Mike, you tagged the wrong person, the wrong entity. And so there's all these like different accounts that are out there that are, that are, uh, it's like the fake Winchester. Mallory Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. So Mallory called that. Mike Brasher: So talk about that. I mean, like from your, your perspective, Mallory and working with Jake and others, like how, and I mean, that's what you pay attention to, right? That you play a role in helping, helping develop and foster those relationships from our perspective as well. Mallory Murphy: Yeah, so in addition to being the social media specialist, being the person that when you are looking, probably looking at this post that's out right now promoting this actual podcast episode, it's me behind that. So, hello. I made sure that this wonderful post went out. I also do the digital content editor, any editorial piece of content that you read on our website. I've curated and built that web page out of some of our magazine articles, anything that we also freelance digitally. And I'm also a, let's see, I like to coin myself as like an entry-level brand manager. I make sure that our partners are taken care of and make sure everything's tagged correctly, make sure our partners are represented in the correct manner through DEU. So yeah, I'm sort of the trained eye, like I said earlier, I'm lurking in the shadows in the background, busy making sure everybody's taken care of. Mike Brasher: And I can tell you that's a really intimidating thing, like for someone that doesn't do a whole lot of social media. It's intimidating to think, okay, I need to tag the right people to know who they are. And it's like, oh my gosh, there's a lot of work that goes in here. I mean, you think social media, it's a lot of work, a lot of physical work, a lot of time and a lot of mental kind of thought and creativity that goes into that, right? Mallory Murphy: You have to really, really, really be good at time management, which I'm not. So my brain is automatically in a million different directions in the first place. So I think it is good for someone in a role like this to be able to have the flexibility to do a lot of different things. And I'm thankful for DE that they allowed me to do that. But like I said, working with Winchester and working with partners, Social media is an awesome tool for our communications department, not only as a touch point to get to relay messages to our members, but also engage and communicate with our corporate partners. Mike Brasher: So Mallory, it's been great to have you here and appreciate all the work that you do on the post that people are going to be seeing, some short little videos and things of that nature. Mallory Murphy: And I see all the comments. I know everything what y'all say, even though someone doesn't respond. There is someone reading them, so don't worry. SPEAKER_03: That is true. I'm always watching. Mike Brasher: So Jake, one of the things that we were here doing this week is trying out some new ammunition, new blends. Tell us about some of what we've got here. And then Will, I want to come and talk to you about a little bit of your background, but then you have some unique perspective and you understand more of the ballistics on this type of stuff than I do, but we'll get you to also talk about some of this. But Jake, some of the products that we were looking at this weekend. Jake Wallace: Yeah, I mean, really, we kind of ran the gamut for waterfowl from Winchester. We had everything out here from Expert, which is probably shot at or shot more ducks than most cartridges out there. Blindside 2, which is our next iteration from Blindside. We did some things there in the manufacturing process to really make that fly well, respond better. The wad we're using there right now, we changed it so that it is actually responsive out of all chokes. You know, we saw some issues with that in the first iteration of Blindside, and we put the engineers to work to fix that. And then we have probably our newest, or one of the newest things, I think we launched at the same time as Blindside, but that's Bismuth. And we shot Bismuth in 12, 20, and 28, and then we were running Blindside 2 and Expert. in the 12s. So, we really had it all and we used it all and it was effective at just about everything. So, you know, they're great products. Bismuth is obviously our premium and I'd put Blindside 2 in that same vein. You know, Blindside 2 is more designed for decoying birds, stuff that, you know, are in your spread 25 to 35 yards, which We had lots of those opportunities the last couple of days, so it was great to see it all work. Mike Brasher: I appreciate greatly the opportunity to try some of these. I shot some of the 20-gauge Bismuth last year. Thoroughly impressed. Also have some 12-gauge one-shot. Bismuth and it does a number on on the resident Canada geese. I can attest to that as well. 28 gauge this week weekend was phenomenal. So much so that I am now eyeing a new gun. Jake Wallace: That's right. Mike Brasher: Thank you for that. That was an awesome little gun. A little 28 gauge and just a fantastic cartridge to go along with it. You know we are at a time in in the ammunition industry where Bismuth and some of the other non-toxics that that are much more effective from a lethality standpoint than, than let's say steel, are becoming more affordable or, you know, in a relative sense. What's driving that? What's, what's kind of going on with this, this explosion of, of these high quality phenomenal cartridges? Jake Wallace: You know, I think, you know, everything we do at Winchester, we set out to make the best, whether that is shot shells, centerfire rifles, centerfire pistol, rimfire, you know, and that doesn't stop with, with a shot shell, right? You know, there's a lot of old technology in there, but there's a lot that you can do. And regarding bismuth, it has all the technology you can possibly fit into a shotgun shell. You know, so like with our 12-gauge and 20-gauge, that's everything from, you know, water-resistant primer. The WOD is our dry-lock system. And then we also have a buffer in there that helps to lessen shot deformation as it travels down the barrel. And it really just works for improved patterns at longer distances. Now, with any technology, the better you get at it and the more manufacturing capabilities you acquire through the production process, it's able to drive down those costs. And I don't think anybody, especially our waterfowl community, would say that ammunition is incredibly affordable right now, just with the world we're living in. But that's something we're very conscious about whenever we design a new product. We know that our You know, our consumers are regular old average Joes, and we try really hard to cut those costs where we can to get them something that's affordable, whether that is bismuth, blindside 2, or expert. Mike Brasher: So I think I referred to these as cartridges, probably. That's not, it's not a cartridge, right? Is it, or what's the… Yeah, we can roll with cartridges. SPEAKER_00: I'm like a geek for wanting to get the names right and all that kind of stuff. Shot shell cartridge. Mike Brasher: So then I noticed you referred to it as shot shell about the time where I was thinking to myself, did I refer to that correctly? It's just the way I work, man. Jake Wallace: You're spot on. It's a shot shell cartridge if you can use both of them. Mike Brasher: There you go. But in the industry, when you hear cartridge, what do you think? Jake Wallace: It could be anything. I would ask, what do you mean? Do you mean a rifle cartridge, shot shell cartridge, or a fire cartridge? Mike Brasher: Yeah, no, you're good. So, Will, we'll talk with you a little bit here. You are very well known in the outdoor and hunting industry. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. You've been on a few podcasts. You've not been on the DU podcast yet, have you? I actually was just on the DU podcast here a few weeks ago with Jennings, and yeah, kind of… So that one may not be out yet then, by the time we're recording. Mallory Murphy: No, it was the Kentucky episode, right? Yeah. Will Brantley: Yeah. Oh, all right. I assume so. It's out. SPEAKER_02: Is it out? It's out. Mallory Murphy: In addition to posting about the podcast, I listen to the podcast. SPEAKER_02: Yeah. Will Brantley: But I mean, we did just record it. It was like two weeks ago. Mike Brasher: You could have covered for me. So I've been exposed now. I didn't listen to that episode. I listen to most of them. Mallory Murphy: I'm the brand manager. I got this. Will Brantley: Well, you saw Will Brantley on. You're like, I don't need to listen to that. SPEAKER_02: Making sure the talents aren't side-eyeing each other right now. Right, right, right. So, sorry. Will Brantley: So, no, no, no worries. And so, no, I mean, I told a little bit of my backstory in that, and, you know, some of my background is similar to Mallory's, just, you know, a number of years earlier. But I was a print journalism major, and, you know, I also grew up hunting and fishing in Western Kentucky. Now, I didn't grow up duck hunting. You know, I wasn't really in a waterfowling hotbed area. I was always kind of interested in it, but my dad was a big quail hunter. Now, I deer hunted, I turkey hunted, big-time squirrel. I hunted everything. Mike Brasher: Big-time squirrel hunter, you don't hear that often. Jake Wallace: Yeah, so I'm still a big-time squirrel hunter. There's another one sitting around the table. Mike Brasher: Trophy squirrel hunters? Will Brantley: Yeah, yeah, so every squirrel is a trophy, especially if he's shot in the head. But yeah, you know, on the wing shooting front, I mean, we, you know, we went to dove shoots when we could, but like I say, my dad always kept bird dogs. He was a big quail hunter. And I like to kind of describe my experiences hunting wild quail, hunting bobwhites. I'm just old enough to have seen the very end of wild quail hunting. When I was young, the last two dogs that dad trained, I probably was 14 when he got those dogs, and he had a pointer and a setter, and we would hunt all day for one good point on one wild caviar birds, but it was really fun. But I finally got to the point where walking, walking, walking all the time. You know, just kind of the new war off of it. And so, I kind of got into duck hunting on my own. Some buddies and I got into it. And, you know, and kind of like Mallory said, I was always really interested in the storytelling aspect of it. I was really interested in outdoor magazines. I kept a stack of them there in my room and I was always reading them. And Wade Bourne was one of the authors that I saw all the time. I always saw Wade on Southern Outdoors and I ended up majoring in print journalism as well and got an internship in New York City at Outdoor Life. And Wade was actually up there visiting at one point with his family, and that's where I met him for the first time. Come to find out, I didn't realize it at the time, but he was from Clarksville, Tennessee, which is not far from where I live in Kentucky. And so Wade really kind of took me under his wing as an outdoor writer. sort of introduced me to the Ducks Unlimited family and made the introductions to Tom Fulgham and the magazine staff and Matt Young. Matt was executive editor at the time. And so yeah, I started working for DU I think in 2007 and then I left in early 2009 and it was just because I've always kind of wanted to be a full-time freelance guy. I really enjoyed working for DU but definitely probably wasn't quite the office type. And so, I still really enjoy doing some freelance articles for them, but that's, you know, that's kind of got me to where I am today. And interestingly enough, that's where, you know, during my time at Ducks Unlimited, that's where I first started working with folks at Winchester. Jason Gilbertson, who I know Jake is in the office with, and, you know, pretty regular contact with Jason. We've hunted a lot of critters, been on several elk hunts together. And, uh, you know, and I got to know Jason through, you know, I would call and, uh, you know, get interviews about, you know, ammunition specifics and things like that. And he would put me in touch with some of their, you know, um, pro shooters and things for shotgunning tips, stories and stuff like that. And so, uh, you know, Jason and I, I guess, um, kind of came up through the ranks together in that communication side of the outdoor business. And, uh, You know, yeah, Winchester's always been a great brand. It's one that I shot a lot whenever I was a kid growing up and, you know, still shoot it a lot today. So, I was really impressed with the stuff we were shooting this weekend, for sure. Mike Brasher: So, why don't you talk about that. You had a chance yesterday to shoot, what, the 12-gauge? Will Brantley: Well, so yesterday and I had, uh, you know, like I say, I've, I've shot a lot of Winchester expert, um, probably more than I care to admit, you know? Um, but, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, it's a shell I've always just bought off the shelf at Walmart or the sporting goods store or whatever, you know, whenever I'm duck hunting at home and, uh, you know, and then I would say in more recent years, if you were to ask me my, you know, my go-to steel load, you know, blindside would have been one of those that I, that I go to a lot, but, um, I, I've noticed here in recent years, you know, just both personally and, you know, and as an outdoor communicator too, it's kind of my job to keep, you know, a finger on the pulse of things like that. You know, your sub-gauge guns have gotten more popular. You know, honestly, not just with water fowlers, but turkey hunters too. You know, I'm a big-time turkey hunter, and one of the things You know, there's a lot of good non-toxic, you know, shot shell materials that are, you know, in some cases heavier than lead and certainly, you know, certainly more dense than steel. And so, what you get out of that is you can get a pellet that has the same, you know, the same energy, the same momentum in a much smaller pellet than a much larger steel pellet. And because of that, you can fit more pellets into the shot shell. And, you know, with steel, because it is so much less dense than lead, you know, you kind of have to, people have learned to compensate for that by going with bigger pellets, you know, and that's how you get your downrange killing power. You know, if you've shot a lot of steel shot, you know, You know, number four steel can be really good for ducks and the decoys. You start getting, you know, Canada geese flying overhead at 40 yards. It's not always that great, and so you want to, you know, upsize to those bigger pellets. But what the non-toxic stuff allows you to do is get that same energy in a much smaller pellet. The bismuth. Yeah, and that's what I was referring to, you know, specifically. And I mean, there's several non-toxic materials, but we were talking about, you know, we were shooting the bismuth specifically this weekend. And so what that's allowed to do, in addition to, you know, and Jake, you know, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but in addition to the really top shelf, you know, components in a lot of the shot shells, you know, and I think that's probably one of the big differences, like, you know, the steel shot of today is way more effective than it was, you know, 25 years ago when I first started duck hunting, because you do have better waddings, you have better powders, you have better primers, you know, your waterproofing processes are just better and so, you know, even your budget steel loads, you know, because you have all those top shelf components, throw a better pattern. Well, you combine that with a shop material like bismuth, and then you're able to pack the lethality of maybe a three-inch 20-gauge shell into that little bitty 28-gauge shell. And yeah, it's still not a 12-gauge But what we found out, you know, down here, I mean, we were shooting a lot of green-winged teal, but we, you know, it's northern Louisiana, you shoot a lot of ducks down here. We shot some wigeon, we shot some gadwall, and some pintail. And, you know, I would say our average shot this week has been probably 25 yards over the decoys, but we've, you know, we've had some longer shots. And, you know, I got to pick up that 28 gauge. And I've shot a 28 gauge on the clay range, you know, a little bit, just kind of playing with them here and there. Never really would have considered it as a duck gun, honestly, until this weekend. And, you know, looking at this bismuth shell that Jake brought, you know, It's a new 3-inch 28-gauge. You know, the 28-gauge previously was just a 2- and 3-quarter-inch only shell, but it's a new 3-inch loading, and so that shell has an ounce of No. 5 bismuth. Well, the 20-gauge shell, if you look at the payload on the 20-gauge bismuth shell, that's an ounce of No. 4 bismuth. it actually has the same payload in the 28-gauge, but just a smaller shot. And so you probably actually, Jake, you probably get a higher pellet count, I guess, in the 28-gauge number five than you do the 20-gauge number four. Is that right? Jake Wallace: I mean, we'd probably have to pour them out, but it's going to be pretty close. Pretty close. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, that stuff, it's so comparable to those larger gauges when you get up there. You know, I was telling you, it's not applicable to what we're doing here, we have a three-inch 28-gauge lead load that's got an ounce and an eighth of seven and a halves in it. I mean, it's a 12-gauge and a 28-gauge, and we took that on a dove hunt this year in Texas, and it was just impressive, you know? And I thought, I mean, I've grown up hunting public land waterfowl, slogging in, you know, standing in poor lines, doing all that stuff. I was apprehensive, and I honestly thought you guys are going to be apprehensive about that 28-gauge three-inch, but it was like, you guys were passing it around. There's a line to use it, you know? And it was… I wanted it first. It was impressive, man. I was really pleased with its performance, and it just was a fun gun to shoot, you know? Will Brantley: Well, I think that's the takeaway with those sub-gauge guns, you know? I mean, yeah, I mean, probably my go-to duck gun day in and out. Like, I'm probably still gonna, you know, gravitate to my 12-gauge, but you know, if you do want a, you know, what the 28 gauge offers, particularly with, you know, with a, with a, with a shell like that, like the Bismuth shell, it's fun. I mean, you pick that, that Satori up, it's super lightweight, it's easy to swing, it's easy to hit with, there's no recoil to it. Um, and, uh, you know, so your followup shots are just, I mean, you know, I shot a pair of teal with it this morning and it's just, you see the first one fall and you, You move right to the second one, there's no real recovery time. And then too, if you have a young hunter or a new hunter who's recoil, and like my son loves to hunt, but he's nine years old, he's a small kid, and he's pretty recoil sensitive. And kind of in the past, If you wanted to get a kid like that into duck hunting, you were kind of stuck with, you know, you can give them a small-gauge gun with steel shot, but you know, the trade-off for that low recoil is it's going to be really ineffective. They're going to be pretty well limited to really close-range stuff, you know, 15 yards, but something like that. I know my son could handle that gun and he's got a gun that he can kill a mallard with it at 30 yards and you know and it's and it's not gonna kick him to death and he's not gonna be scared of it and I mean that's that's a huge benefit for getting a new shooter you know into into waterfowl hunting where you know honestly like some of those magnum shotgun shells can kick you pretty hard. Mike Brasher: Yeah, it was interesting that when I said, you know, there was, was there, there was no doubt that I wanted to, I think I raised my hand first, said, yeah, I want to shoot the 28 gauge. And it wasn't until the next morning that I realized I was shooting an over-under. And I was like, well, wait, maybe I shouldn't. Yeah, you did, you did balk a little bit when you realized that. I don't know that I've, I don't know that I've ever shot an over-under. I mean, I know how to work them and all that type of stuff, but I don't know if I'd ever shot it. the first few birds that came in, I was kind of fumbling the same way with Mallory did whenever she was trying to shoot it, I think this afternoon or something or this morning at the snipe. Getting the safety right, you know, because that asked you about the over-under. I had to switch that. But let me just say, it did not, that did not hinder me from connecting with a few birds. Jake Wallace: Yeah, and two, you know, the business stuff is great. And the real story behind this 28-gauge, three-inch stuff is that, you know, we attend a lot of consumer shows. We, you know, NRA, you know, the DU Expo. I mean, you name them, we go to them. And we interact a lot with our end user. And a lot of people asked us for 28-gauge, three-inch waterfowl stuff. So bismuth wasn't an obvious choice there. But, you know, we also make it an expo. And, and the reason I mentioned that is, you know, if you do choose to go out and get a gun in 28 gauge three inch, you don't have to, to really go ahead and stick a shock here with the bismuth. If you want to try it, you know, we do make it in the expert line as well as. lead load too. So, we've shot a lot of bismuth, we shot some expert out of it. You could definitely see the quality, you know, the difference in quality from, just from a component standpoint, because bismuth is so much more dense than steel. It hit them with authority, but they both work very well. Mike Brasher: So, let me ask you a question. I've seen this and I don't know if it's, I don't know if there's truth to it, but I've heard people say that there's something about the 28 gauge that gives it even, that gives it ballistic properties or patterning properties and let's say a 20 gauge. Is there any truth to that or is it just so dependent upon what load you're shooting and things of that nature? Jake Wallace: I mean a 28 gauge is a 28 gauge. I would probably point to the, that would be around choke constriction. Yeah. Will Brantley: Yeah. Your shot string and things like that. Jake Wallace: And to some extent, like a, you know, like a rifle, guns like certain things and some guns pattern better with one wad than the other. And it's just, there's a lot of variables that go into that, the answer to that question. If you asked a hundred different people, you'd probably get 88 different answers. Mike Brasher: But there's nothing magical necessarily about a 28 gauge that would cause it. across the board to pattern better than, let's say, a 20. Jake Wallace: M- Hey, it's Dumbo and his feather, man. If you think it's magic, it's magic, you know? Mike Brasher: J- Okay. What else do we need to talk about here with any of these products, the new shells, anything else to talk about? I have a few other questions related to some of the production, just general production of shot. I learned some things from riding with you and just starting me asking what I considered very naive questions and learned a few things also about some of the wadding and its function within recoil and so forth and things that I never really considered. I want to talk about those after we come back from a break. But anything else about these products, about any new things coming from Winchester that we want to talk about right now? Jake Wallace: And we're sitting, it's, it's, it's mid-December. I would say, you know, we, we launched everything here within the last year or so. We're days away from SHOT Show at this point. I would just tell everybody to stay tuned. We've got some incredibly cool stuff coming up at SHOT as well as some mid-year launches next year of some really cool new technologically advanced stuff from Winchester. So, you know, I would just say stay tuned and hopefully we can get back on at that point. and tell you about the cool new stuff that we come out with then. Mike Brasher: I will not be attending SHOT Show, so I'll have to catch up. Maybe if you're back on with me, I'll know by hearing it, but if you're back on with Chris Jennings or anybody else, then I'll have to make sure that I listen to that episode, right? Jake Wallace: We'll make sure Mallory sends you the link. There you go. Mallory Murphy: I do want to add, though, to this little tidbit. I was sitting directly to the left of Mike yesterday morning and Will this morning. Mike Brasher: You know I have the ability to edit this out if I don't like the way this is going. Mallory Murphy: No, no, no. It was actually pretty funny. I was sitting directly to the left of both of them both mornings, and as soon as they picked up the 28 gauge and that first bird came in and they shot, and the bird fell on that first shot, They both kind of did a little smirk and they turned to the left because they were on the far right and all the rest of us were off to their left. And they turned and looked and you knew it almost like a kid on Christmas morning how excited they were when they finally figured it out. Will Brantley: Just wanted to be sure everybody saw it. Mallory Murphy: That's exactly what I was like, did you see that? Yeah. They were impressive shots too. The birds were coming at all these weird angles. So yeah, it was fun to watch them. Mike Brasher: I appreciate the way you described that, Mallory. Mallory Murphy: Yeah, you can just keep telling that story. It was, it was, y'all, but it was kind of, it was almost like, huh, did that just really happen? SPEAKER_02: Did I just? Yeah, so it was actually pretty cool. Mike Brasher: Very good. Thanks for that. We're going to take a break right now. We'll come back. We've got some more fun stories to talk about. Some of the, how you get to know people and how you banter back and forth with folks as you spend a couple of days with them at the Duck Camp. So stay with the folks. We got some more fun stories coming up after this. SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, sponsored by Purina ProPlan, after these messages. Mike Brasher: Everybody, welcome back. Mike Brasher here. We're down on location in Northeast Louisiana. We've been on a Winchester hunt, a Winchester camp here with Jake Wallace from Winchester and Will Brantley. Who are you? How do you, how do you introduce yourself? I forgot about all that. Cause you do some freelance work and all that. Will Brantley: Field and Stream. Freelance writer, editor. Yeah. Field and Stream's hunting editor, editor of Realtree.com, Whitetail's editor for Peterson's hunting. Whoever will pay me to write a hunt story. Mike Brasher: Yeah, good, good. And then Mallory Murphy, our social media specialist for Ducks Unlimited. And we wanted to pick up and talk about some of the fun experiences that we've had this week. We've had a couple of hunts, hunted a rice field both days, dramatically different weather conditions both days, dramatically different bird responses. And I mean, both days were successful. Yesterday, the first day was much more so. And who wants to go first talking about that? Who wants to set that up? Which of you? Will, you want to take a stab at that? Will Brantley: Yeah, you know, if you were to ask me what I would consider the ideal duck day, I mean, I would say post-cold front, high-pressure morning, blue sky, you know, sunshine, 10 or 15 mile an hour northwest wind, exactly what we had this morning. Exactly the opposite of yesterday. Everything was there, we just didn't see that many ducks. You know, those that we did see were, you know, were flying a mile high, you know. Yesterday, on the other hand, Um, was, was warm and pouring down rain and, and honestly pretty miserable to sit in, uh, most of the, most of the morning. But, um, it's good. And we had a lot of ducks to, to keep us entertained because the shooting was really good. We didn't have to sit there long. We didn't have to sit there too long. Yeah. And, uh, you know, it was, um, It was heavily a green-winged teal shoot, which, you know, I have had when I think back to the few really good rainy days that I've had, you know, and I've had some good duck hunts and kind of some you know, I don't know, some small days. I mean, kind of some damp, you know, misty days. But yesterday was probably the best hunt that I've ever had in what I would call a pouring down rain. You know what I mean? And it does seem like the good days that I have had when it's been rainy, a lot of times it is on some of your ducks that seem to fly. You know, I've had some really good diver hunts on rainy days. And Green Wings seem to work well on rainy days. And of course, you know, both of them kind of, you know, for the most part, work the decoys pretty low to the water. I don't know if that has something to do with it or, you know, it was, you mentioned too, it was the first day of the second split. Those ducks had had a little time to rest and we were in a really good area, you know, there were a lot of birds around. But long and short, I mean, you know, the ducks really flew exceptionally well for the first hour of daylight yesterday, you know, huge knots of teal. And they were really responsive to a call. really finished well on the decoys. The wind was right for us. The wind was right. We had the wind right in our face. We kind of had to set the decoys. This morning. SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this morning. Will Brantley: We were in a pit blind in a turn row and had water in front of us and mud behind us. You know, there's only so much you can do when the wind is right in your face. That's kind of where we were stuck. And so we actually adjusted the decoys a couple times because we were, you know, we were getting a few looks early, but they just weren't wanting to finish. And I mean, I think part of that was they were just having a difficult time finishing in that wind. I, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's, uh, as a duck hunter, it's easy to try to sit out there and get into a duck's head. But sometimes I think, you know, when ducks don't finish over the decoys, I mean, yeah, sometimes they're seeing you or whatever, and you move decoys around or brush in or pick up trash around the blind or whatever. But sometimes I think it's just like, they make that circle. It's not real convenient for them to land there. And so they just go land somewhere else, you know, in the same field. So, but like you said, they're both, both good hunts. Mike Brasher: It had been a while since I've been on a really good greenwing hunt. That was a good one. I think, what did we decide we did? Like, there were five of us. 26 greenwings? 25? Yeah. Will Brantley: We had 26 greenwings, and then a real pretty pintail drake, and a real pretty widgeon drake, and had a shoveler, and a gadwall. Mike Brasher: Yeah. Jake Wallace: There were a lot of pintails. And a bonus Ross's Goose. That's right. Mike Brasher: That was… Another one of the guys that was with us, Kyle, he was one of the first Ross's geese he had ever killed, which surprised me. But yeah, that's a neat little bird. And so, Jake, have you been hunting here before? Is this your first time in this location? Jake Wallace: I've never hunted in Louisiana before. I've done some fishing and obviously down in the Gulf, but, you know, hunted a lot in Arkansas. It's the first time I've ever hunted in Louisiana. you know, I was of the same opinion when we got up on that morning, it was pouring down rain. I was like, oh, this is either going to be real good or not. We were waterlogged and mud ridden by the time we got out there, but it was, it was an incredible shoot. It just did everything you want, you know what I mean? It was one of those days that you, you hope that it's going to turn out. Mike Brasher: Yeah. Today was a bluebird sky. The wind, as you said, wind was in our face. It just, it just wasn't quite what we, uh, what we needed it to be, you know, and plus the birds had been shot at for a day, so that didn't help as Will Brantley: But you know, some of the other, you know, guys hunting the same area, you know, blinds, you know, a mile or so away, they did pretty well today. I don't think anybody did as well as they did yesterday, but I think some of the other blinds, you know, shot ducks. And so, just to show you, you don't know unless you're out there. Yeah, that's right. Mike Brasher: You can't kill them from the couch. That's right. Let's see. So, one of the things… I think you mentioned the mud, right? One of you mentioned the mud. The mud is a story. The mud was a story yesterday, but then because we're in the Alluvial Valley, Mississippi Alluvial Valley here in Louisiana, not too far from Tinsall National Wildlife Refuge. Well, actually we drove north quite a ways. Where we're staying right now is not far from Tinsall National Wildlife Refuge. But we ended up driving north quite a ways in order to hunt. But still, it's that gumbo. I think we were talking with Mallory. We were looking at this on the way back. Mallory farms, her family farms in the MAV in Mississippi Delta over there in Mississippi. And so we were trying to figure out what soils we're dealing with here. And it's like, I think we decided it was like sharky tunica, so clay. So anyways, kind of geeking out on soil types there a little bit, but… I wasn't able to contribute very much to that conversation. So yesterday it was muddy, you know, that stuff kind of gums up. But then last night, Kyle was talking about, oh man, whenever that mud starts to dry out a little bit, it's going to be bad tomorrow. It's going to be bad. And I've had some dealings with it in the past whenever I was working as a… as a technician with Dr. Scott Manley and the Mississippi Delta, and I remember how frustrating and challenging it can be, but man, I don't remember it being like that. Who wants to describe that? Will Brantley: Y'all went in first. Y'all went in on the four-wheeler first. Yeah, we were. Each of us were. Mike Brasher: And that four-wheeler will never be the same. Will Brantley: No. No. Yeah, because there's a little bit less of it. Yeah. I mean, we were, you know, riding side saddle on a gear rack on the back of it, and I guess it's a good thing we don't have an ATV sponsorship on this thing, because they'd be yelling at us. But we're riding side saddle, and we've got our blind bags and stuff, as people do, going to a pit blind like that. And Kyle did last night. Like I say, it was muddy and messy going in yesterday. But Kyle said last night, he said, when the mud starts to dry a little bit, it starts getting sticky. And that's when it starts tearing things up. We were going this morning and Kyle was trying to pull, you know, the side of it up kind of into the, into the grass and stuff along the, along the dish, just to knock some of that mud off. He tried actually pulling off into one of the flooded fields and just getting it wet, but it was balled up so heavily on the tires that the, the four-wheeler didn't have the torque to turn the tires. outside of about first gear and, and it would not throw that mud. It just kept kicking it. It was almost like a big snowball, you know, four of them. And, um, we're going down through there in the dark this morning and you can just tell the machine is struggling. We finally were like, you know, maybe we'll get off and walk, take some of this weight off of it and. about that time, there was a kind of a loud pop and we left a, left a… I don't know, honestly, what all we left. I know at least a fender and some plastic, but I mean, you really couldn't tell because it was so… I thought it was all mud. Jake Wallace: Like, we were just riding and I could feel it building up and I was on the side where we ended up losing that piece of equipment, but… It kept building up, building up. I was like, I kept hearing, like, I thought rivets were popping. I was like, oh, maybe, maybe it's just kicking off there. You thought right. That's exactly what it was. That's exactly what it was. And then finally, you know, we get going and we just come up this one spot that was absolutely just a mud choke, heck hole. and we go through it and what I'm sitting on just falls away from me and I'm just like, hey Kyle, we need to stop for a second, man. But we made it out there, one trip anyway. Will Brantley: I was actually asking Kyle, I said, man, like, you guys go, I mean, you got to pressure, I mean, your equipment's going to be destroyed if you don't get that stuff cleaned off. And I said, what, you know, and it's just going to happen again tomorrow. Like, what are you doing? He said, well, I said, you know, we pressure wash it and just kind of get us through till duck season and then he said at the end of duck season they take their machines to I guess like an 18 wheeler cleaner you know and they pay them to actually clean them and he said that's how they get them cleaned off he said he said you'd spend all day cleaning for withers, you know, so, um, it, it was a mess. It was, it was as bad a mud as I think I've been in. Mike Brasher: So it's very, it's very impressive mud. We, uh, Mallory and I were brought in cause yeah, cause the plan was originally for Kyle to come back and get us, but there was no returning Kyle. So we ended up having to get a ride in someone with somebody else and We made it there, and we look at the four-wheeler, and half of it's practically gone, and definitely, yeah, quite a sight. But hunt was great. Mud was quite a challenge, and the story in itself. One of the other things we want to talk about is the snipe hunting that we did. We were sitting there yesterday. Actually, this story actually goes back a little bit farther than that. And so, I'm going to ask Mallory to get back on here. She's been taking some videos and photos here and she's going to get back on. I'm going to turn her volume up here. And so, snipe hunting. So, I've, I know what snipe are. Of course, I grew up with the joke about snipe hunting. Somebody goes and holds a bag and you go off at night and you leave them, that kind of stuff. There actually are snipe, Wilson snipe. It's a little shorebird, one of only two shorebird species here in North America that are huntable, the other being the American woodcock. They're found quite common, they're quite common in sort of flooded ag fields during this time of the year down in this part of the country. I don't know their full range during the non-breeding season, But certainly down in the southeastern U.S., I've hunted them before, but Mallory was previous… Before this hunt, you were in Florida. And that was the first time that you had ever been exposed to snipe hunting. Mallory Murphy: Yes. I told my… I made a joke yesterday and said, snipe did not exist in my world until yesterday. So I'd been in Florida on a hunt and obviously the duck hunt was a little slow so we were just bumming around saying there like our guide said hey why don't we walk through this field over here and see if we can flush up any snipe and we're like okay sure. Mike Brasher: Now what was your reaction when you heard him say snipe hunting? Mallory Murphy: Well, it was the normal, what people usually do. Obviously, I'm a little bit older now and a little bit more educated than I was when I was a small child. Mike Brasher: But did you know it was a bird? Did you know it was legitimate? Mallory Murphy: Yes, I knew it was a legitimate bird. I grew up like you, snipe hunting, and then once you get older, you realize, oh, this is a real species. So yeah, but I've never actually hunted it before, never given it the thought of day. And they were like, yeah, let's do a little snipe hunt. And I was like, all right, sure. Okay, this is kind of weird. We're just gonna walk through a semi-flooded little field with just some tall grass in it and a little bit of shrubs. I'm not very good with Florida types of trees, but yeah. Walking through all that, and all of a sudden you hear this weird little shrill, like that. And then something just pops up about 10 yards in front of you. Boom, Mallory misses. Boom, the girl beside me knocks it down. And I'm like, this is fun. This is awesome. So, yeah. And then I came back and told Mike. I was like, Mike, I shot a snipe. And yeah, ended up getting one after I wasted a few shells. But I was like, Mike, I shot a snipe. And he was like, Well, you know, there's some right behind us. Let's go get it. Mike Brasher: But the other thing was, you had to leave before they were going to cook them. Mallory Murphy: Yes. Although you had killed one, you had not eaten one. Yeah, I had to leave that morning to come here. Mike Brasher: So, yeah. So, that was part of the motivation also, because we were sitting there yesterday. Mallory Murphy: And Mike was like, this is an amazing tasting bird. And I was like, okay, let's try it. Jake Wallace: We had to tell Mike to put his head in the blind when ducks were coming around. That is true. Looking for snipes to come by. Mallory Murphy: In addition to that, and I think I was looking around, I need to get better at being versed in my bird identification on the wing. I also just need to give in and get contacts. But I was also like, Mike, is that a snipe? Is that a snipe? He's like, no, that's a kill-dee. I was like, okay. Is that a snipe? No. Wait. Yes, that's a snipe. And then we figured out where they were going. Mike Brasher: Yeah, and so they were going over behind us. And so, yes, the me with my head up out of the blind, that was, admittedly, that was towards the end of the duck hunt, right? Jake Wallace: Yeah, but we had to get to the number, Mike. I mean, we were so close. We're sitting there watching ducks circling. We're waiting for a duck, and Mike's like, is that a snipe? Is that a snipe? Mallory Murphy: Mike's sitting there poking his head out of the blind. There's ducks working. He's sitting there trying to turn around to see where the snipe are going. But I had the 28 gauge, you know? Mike Brasher: beautiful gun for Green Wings and amazing for Snipe. So, yes, we eventually got the last duck, and so then we walk into the field behind us, and what did we get yesterday? Three? Three Snipes? Yeah. So, that was fun. So, last night, we cooked those up. And what's the verdict on how they taste, Jake? Jake Wallace: Oh, I've hunted Snipe in the past. Like, I hunt them with pointing dogs. I use Brittany's for mine, and they're awesome. They hold a little better, but They're a fantastic little critter, man. I mean, they taste good. I would do it again. I will. Will Brantley: Yeah, I haven't hunted snipe, but I've hunted a lot of woodcock. You know, we used to shoot a lot of woodcock in Kentucky whenever I was growing up quail hunting, and although we don't see many quail anymore, we do still see a lot of woodcock, and they're a very similar bird, obviously. You know, I think the snipe are probably a little smaller. But yeah, I mean, I like, I really like doves. They're one of my favorite wild game, and I think a woodcock tastes just about like a dove, and those snipe did too. I mean, you sautéed them in some butter. Yeah, a little steak seasoning, and they were really good. And so, yeah, I mean, we went out and hunted them again today a little bit, and they were fun. You know, it was kind of a combination of, you know, kind of trying to walk up birds, like, you know, like you're walking a fence row trying to jump quail or jump woodcock. But then also, one of the things that I noticed about them, one of the things that was kind of neat, those birds, a lot of them would make kind of a half circle and sort of try to come back. And so if you were patient, if you didn't get a shot at them, sometimes you could just kind of squat down or maybe tuck against the brush. And a lot of times you get some past shooting out of it. And at that point, They were pretty sporty, especially with that 28 gauge, you know. And so, it was, you know, the shots on them, they kind of had some acrobatics like that. So, it was a little bit of a mix of kind of an upland hunt and a dove hunt, except out in the mud and waders. But it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. Like, we went out with a pocket full of shells, and I was just expecting to be gone, you know, 10 minutes. And I think the next thing you know, we spent an hour, and I'd shot up my whole pocket full of shells. picked up the decoys. It worked out, but it was the perfect time to go sniping. Jake Wallace: That's right. You guys planned that one very well. Mike Brasher: Yeah. So we came back with four today, or five. Five today. So yeah, the one thing I will say, or two things I'll say, so now for each of you, Whenever you go, if you do your HIP certification in Louisiana next year, or Mallory, you for HIP certification in Louisiana or Florida, you have to check, yes, I hunted snipe last year. Or I forget exactly how they do those. Yeah. Isn't it the snipe, rails, and gullet holes? SPEAKER_02: Yeah. Mike Brasher: I think so. I forget exactly how that goes. I can finally hit yes. That's right. That's right. So, but yeah, specific to the state that you hunted those in though. But you go do that in Mississippi, you know, all the property that you have access to there. That's right. That's a fantastic little thing. So, the other thing about snipe hunting, species identification is really important. Will Brantley: It takes some time. It would be easy to mess up. You know, I was very thankful to have a biologist walking next to me. Now, once you pointed out a few of them, then there wasn't much to it. You know, you could really, and I think especially with a, you know, a bright sunshine day where you could see them, you know, you could really pick out, you know, the bill on them. And that seemed to be the main difference. But they've got a pretty particular flight pattern, too, once you know what you're looking for. But yeah, I don't… If I would have been out there by myself, I don't know that I would have had the confidence to just go out there and try it. Yeah. Mike Brasher: Mallory tried to use that as an excuse for her missing a couple of times yesterday. She's like, I didn't know exactly what it was. I said, what do you mean? I just told you that's a snipe. You're good to go. Jake Wallace: They almost fall out of the sky, you know, when they're flying. They're not an easy critter to try to shoot. Mallory Murphy: It's also their distinct sound. I get it by the sound that they make when they jump up. Mike Brasher: Yeah, that's a really good point. Like, to begin learning what they are and how to identify them, whenever they do flush, they let off that distinctive call. And so, if you use that as your initial way to identify them, you can be pretty confident. And then you can begin to learn the flight pattern, their wing shape and things. Mallory Murphy: Like Will said, they sort of bounce when they fly. Jake Wallace: And if you're patient, they'll usually just sit down not too far away. Mallory Murphy: They'll go like 35, 40 yards and then they'll sit right back down. Mike Brasher: So, snipe hunting. That was fun. I appreciated y'all. I wasn't sure what the reaction of the group was going to be whenever I kind of started. Yeah, let's do that. Do that. Jake Wallace: It was great when it was slow, man. It was something to do, you know? Mallory Murphy: Get out and go for a walk. Mike, you will have to tell them to take the time to get the thighs. Yeah. Mike Brasher: I didn't do that on the ones that we have today. We kind of have some things we needed to do to get here today and yesterday. Utilize as much of the bird as you can because it's delicious. We pulled the thighs and legs off and fried those up too. And so it's not a whole lot of meat on it, but it's tasty meat there. Very tasty. Okay. Let's see. Let's move on to one of the other topics. Jake, we had about an hour drive each of the last two mornings. And so we were peppering you with a variety of questions and you would occasionally use some some terms that I had no idea what it was. We were asking about some of the manufacturing facilities for Winchester. And you mentioned at one time something about a shot tower. You said this is the only location where we have a shot tower and that was relevant to whatever conversation we were having. And so I had to follow that up and say, well, what do you mean a shot tower? Tell us. That was fascinating to me. Jake Wallace: Yeah. So I'll get there, but I think we have, so to lay it out, we have three places we manufacture ammunition. We have our headquarters in East Elm, Illinois, where we manufacture all of our shot shell products, including the components being shot. We have a plant in Oxford, Mississippi, where we do rimfire, centerfire, pistol, and centerfire rifle. And then we operate the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant over in Independence, Missouri. So those are all of our manufacturing facilities with, you know, an incredible workforce that helps us produce some great products. But up in East Alton, we have our shot tower and it's a majority of lead that is used in ammunition products comes in from recycled batteries. So they take batteries and they get the lead ingots from there. I think you call them ingots. And then we take them, melt them down and you can make them into whether it's cores or lead cores for bullets or shot. But we have a shot tower and it is, it's roughly eight stories tall. And what you do is you take the shot and you melt it up top and The best way to form lead shot is to drop it through the air and then the force of gravity and the lead spinning as it comes down forms the most perfect round lead sphere. You drop that into a type of oil that helps cool it and then when it sinks, it hardens and then at the bottom you can work it. So that's why we manufacture our shot shells in East Alton is that there's certain regulatory issues around the manufacturing of lead and dealing with it. We've had that there for a long time, and it's a great facility, but it's one of those things where old technology is still the best technology, so we make it all there. Everything that has to do from, you know, nines all the way up to buckshot. Mike Brasher: And you were also saying, though, that you can control the size. You can try to control the size of the shot being produced by the size of the droplet that's coming out, right? Jake Wallace: So, those folks in the shot tower, they set up to drop a certain size. So, if you're dropping, like, something for double A's, you know, you're trying to hit seven and a half, eight, they set up for that. Some of them could be sixes, some of them could be, you know, a little bit larger or smaller than seven and a halves, but we have a sorting process that we do that allows us to sort out the exact size that we're looking for and then put that into products that we're trying to, trying to manufacture at that time. Mike Brasher: How does that manufacturing process compare to the one for bismuth? And if there are any trade secrets here, don't share them. I don't have to worry about telling you that, but how does, generally, how does that compare? Jake Wallace: So, we actually purchased our bismuth. There are people that are better at making that than we are. So, we purchased the bismuth to be able to put into our products. Do you have, do you know what that looks like? I don't have visibility on how that particular material is manufactured. Will Brantley: Okay. And I think, Jake, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the case, I mean, really with a lot of shot shell manufacturers and some of the high-end non-toxics. I mean, aren't there like a few, folks that make, you know, some of that, you know, the bismuth, the, you know, the… Steel typically comes in in strip. Jake Wallace: TSS is manufactured… Comes in in strip? Yeah, it'll be like a, like a wire. It comes in in a wire form and then we, they form it and there's different processes to it. There's also cast steel shot and they're just basically different ways of of making steel shot products. Mike Brasher: Okay, very interesting. One of the other things that we kind of stumbled upon in our conversation yesterday was we got to talking about the wads in a certain cartridge and I'm not just saying what I'm about to say because you're here and Winchester is the official ammo of Ducks Unlimited. It is really truth in that probably one of, if not the most iconic shot shell that I'm aware of is Winchester AA. Is that fair statement? Would you? Jake Wallace: Oh, I would. Yeah, that red, the red hole is, is iconic, especially in the realm of clay target shooting. Mike Brasher: I grew up at a time where, well, whenever I was just getting into duck hunting, lead was still allowed to be used and my dad was reloading. And of course, we reloaded for doves as well and we would use lead for that. And so, I was very familiar with the AA hulls because they reloaded so incredibly well. And so, Talk about just the superior quality that goes into the AA shells, why that is, and the reputation they've earned. Jake Wallace: Yeah, you know, we were talking about how bismuth is all the shot shell technology you can cram into a hunting round. I would say AA is that for us from the clay target and competitive shooting side. It just starts out with your components. I mean, when you have, it's like any recipe, when you have the best ingredients, you're going to make the best product. And AA is that for us. in the target range, and it all starts, you know, you only have so much. You've got a tube that you have to deal with, and then you've got a base wad, and then building that, you have the propellant, and then the wad with a shot cup, and then you've got the shot itself. Now, the AA has all the great components, a better primer, the best primer, the best shot. We use 6% anemone shot, and typically our competition would use 2% to 4%, depending on who and what you're looking at. But that anemone, in the same way that buffer in bismuth reduces shot deformation, anemone does that in lead. Anemone is an additive that you add to lead, which is inherently soft, that hardens it up a little bit and allows you to not only have better patterns downrange, but it allows you to break targets better. And then within that, we use a special patented wad system in the AA. It's a double-hinged wad. what that allows you to do, and really the hero of any shot shell technology is going to be the wad, because you can do so much with it. It's really the thing that you can tweak to make, whether it's the pedal size, whether it's the thickness of them, whether it's the length of them, really, you can do that. But the AA has a double-hinged wad, which reduces the setback force, which helps to keep shot rounder. It also eliminates a little bit of felt recoil. which when you're trying to shoot, like my game, International Trap, Olympic Trap, you get two shots. So it allows you to have a little bit better follow-up shot. And those components, and in particular the wad and AA, it's just, it's iconic and it's, when winning is everything, everybody chooses it. Mike Brasher: Was that double-hinged wad sort of an innovative development and an innovation associated with AA? Jake Wallace: You know, I'm not sure on the time, but they do run hand-in-hand. AA came around when it was, you know, people would buy AA's as factory loaded ammunition with the intent of reloading them. So we built AA, and we still build AA's to be highly reloadable. There used to be some cost advantages to that, which have since ceased more or less, but we still make it the same way because the plastics we use in that too are just so dependable and sturdy that they can take anything, you know. you hear stories of people loading those things 15 or 20 times before they end up splitting. So, they're just a quality product the whole way around. Mike Brasher: How much of the knowledge that you have and that you've shared with us came as a result of the work that you do now versus how much of it did you just have to and or want to learn because you were a competitive shooter? Jake Wallace: So, I'm a touch over 30 now. I started competing when I was 15 and at the time I always wanted to shoot double A's. So, I mean it's kind of like It's just, at this point, part of my life. Mike Brasher: So, you knew parts of it before you got to Winchester, and then once you got to Winchester, you learned a little bit more of it? Jake Wallace: I would say I knew the results. I didn't know the how part. Yeah. Like, I knew double A's work. Now I know why they work and why they're the best. Whereas before, it was just like, I knew that the best shot that or shoot those as they still do. But now I can tell you why that works. It's not only just because of incredible skill, that our shooters possess, but it's also because of the products that we make. Mike Brasher: And there's a little bit of a premium price on those, right? Compared to some of the other loads that Winchester offers. Jake Wallace: It's like, it's like anything we make across all of our end uses. You know, we make super targets, which are also, I would say, on par with some of our competitors' premium shells. But double A's are a step above. you know, but you can expect more from them. Mike Brasher: Right. And so I, the reason I mentioned that is I found myself purchasing some of y'all shells recently and I did, it was, it was partly for nostalgia because I used to purchase AA and I don't do a whole lot of, of shooting, uh, practice shooting, clay shooting now, but I bought some of the, uh, some of the others, some of, I don't know, what did you, super clay? Is that what you called them? Super target. Super target. I bought some of those, but then also bought some of the, some of the AA and the price point was a little bit more, it wasn't outrageous, but, But yeah, there's some nostalgia associated with that because that's what I was familiar with back whenever I reloaded. And so it was cool. Anyway, there was a neat sort of connection back to some of my childhood and some of the things that I used to do there. So, I appreciate, I appreciate indulging me there. What else did we, other fun stories do we have over the week now that we want to talk about? There's one, there's at least one. I don't know if I want to go there. I mean, we had a little debate about the college football playoffs and all that kind of stuff. We don't want to go there, right? Do we? Mallory's got her headset back on, I'm tempted to… Do I turn it back up? So, no, we don't have to go there, but we had a fun… I don't know if we have enough time to go there. But it was a great weekend. Jake, thanks to you for having us here. One of the things that I know we value in one another, in our organizations, is our commitment to conservation. So I wanna give you an opportunity to talk about that. Jake Wallace: Yeah, you know, I think from Winchester's foundation, especially back to like John Olin, you know, we, and, or he created Nilo, which is our, our, our hunting and shooting preserve to try out things and to try out the technologies at the time to make a better place for wildlife to, to foster and, and create a, a feeling of conservation right outside of a, of one of the largest cities at the time, St. Louis in the country. And so we're very rooted and founded in the conservation and the utilization of our natural resources, you know, for whatever purposes that they are. And our conservation partnerships are narrow, but they're very deep. And Ducks Unlimited is one of those relationships. You know, I think we're close, over 20 years, close to 25, something like that as a partner. And it's really easy to have a relationship like that when you're an organization that has a strong purpose that aligns with one like ours. and you're so well-rounded and everything from your conservation message to your media, you know, you guys are prevalent in print. You guys do a great job at social and you even have a presence on TV, you know, with TU TV. So you guys just have a wholesome approach to the area of conservation, you know, of waterfowl and wetland habitat. And it's just something we appreciate. And, you know, we don't put logos on our boxes that aren't ours very often. you know and that Duckhead on there is is displayed proudly so you know it's it's a partnership that we enjoy having we're proud of and hopefully continue to continue to do. Mallory Murphy: Yeah in addition to the Duckhead those are just some beautiful boxes I mean man how can you not walk by them in a store and not want to pick that up and just marvel at the artwork on them I mean those are just some y'all y'all have stepped it up for real those are some very good looking boxes. Jake Wallace: Our packaging we've done a whole new and it's their works of art at this point you know they're they're collector's items whether you buy expert bismuth blindside rifle products it's it's pretty cool. Mike Brasher: 85 years of conservation DU logo on the front of this box the DU logo on the side of the box King Buck on the back of this it's uh the Winchester 12 gauge three inch number twos expert so I don't know if it's King Buck on any of the others I'm looking at right now. Jake Wallace: Oh no that one is uh we did that specially for you guys for your 85th anniversary. Mallory Murphy: Yeah and going back to that I remember when y'all were working on all that, it was fun collaborating with y'all on all of the marketing materials and content that y'all produced for our 85th, and that just goes to show an extra step in what Winchester does to help foster this relationship with DU and everything that they do for conservation, how much they care about one of our favorite resources. Mike Brasher: Well, it was, it was wonderful to spend some time with you. Uh, thanks for everything that you continue to do for the outdoor industry, for conservation, uh, some of the writing, some of the work that you continue to do for Ducks Unlimited. Uh, this, hopefully this will not be the last time we get together and, and, uh, enjoy the outdoors. Will Brantley: Well, yeah, no, I appreciate, uh, appreciate y'all invite me and, uh, thank you all for what Ducks Unlimited does. You know, you, I've, I've been fortunate to hunt in a lot of places and, uh, you know, a lot of different places around the world and, Nobody else has what we have here in North America. And it's, uh, you know, it's due to a lot of things. It's due to our model, but it's, it's also due to organizations like Ducks Unlimited and, uh, and of course, Ducks Unlimited wouldn't be able to do what it does without the support of partners like Winchester. So, uh, yeah. Um, thank y'all. And, uh, and thanks for having me. It was good time duck hunting down here. That was a blast. Mike Brasher: Absolutely. So thanks to Winchester, the official ammunition of Ducks Unlimited. I'm reading it right here on the box. Jake, thank you. Will, thank you. Mallory Murphy: And I just want to sign off saying I had a great weekend. It was a great trip, and I'm so glad that you three fellas had the pleasure of sharing the blind with me. Mike Brasher: Thank you, Mallory. That's a great way to sign off. Thanks, y'all. A very special thanks to our guest on today's episode, Will Brantley, Jake Wallace, Mallory Murphy. Thanks for joining us here, folks. We appreciate the work of our producer, Chris Isaac, who always does a great job. Also, to you, the listener, we thank you for your time. We thank you for your support of Ducks Unlimited, support of the Ducks Unlimited podcast, and most importantly, your support of wetlands and waterfowl conservation.