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Empowering Future Latinx Judges · The Lawtino™

0:01
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Latino podcast where we discuss the intersection of law and our Latino communities with legal, political, and community leaders and visionaries.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's John Gomez.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another edition of the Latino, where we discuss the intersection of law in our Latino communities.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: This episode, as always, is brought to you by our sponsors, Gomez Trial Attorneys, one of our nation's largest uh Latino-founded consumer rights, personal injury, employment, and civil rights law firm.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Today we have a very special guest, but first I'm going to introduce our co-host or my co-host for today.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: You've met her before.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I interviewed her before, and she uh interviewed me, and that's Jessica Lujan, who is a trial attorney here on my firm, a leader for her people in the community and law.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: And um she has a very special guest that she uh has invited to be with us and who has traveled from Jessica's home state and town of uh El Paso, Texas.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: So take it away, Jessica.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, John.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm super excited to be here uh today with someone who's very special in my heart.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Uh I spoke about Judge Maria Salas Mendoza in the introductory podcast, and I'm fortunate enough to have her here in the podcast room today.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: We'll be able to talk to her and uh introduce yourself, Judge Please.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: We're so happy to have you.
1:43
SPEAKER_03: Okay, you're shocking me already.
1:44
SPEAKER_03: I thought you were gonna introduce me.
1:46
SPEAKER_03: So my name is Maria Salas Mendoza, I'm judge of the 120th District Court in El Paso County, Texas.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: I am going to finish my 18th year on the trial bench this year.
1:55
SPEAKER_03: And then in January, I'll be the Chief Justice of the Eighth Court of Appeals.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't do it better than that.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: So, and I want the audience to get to know you as soon as possible.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: We're so happy to have you.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you uh for being here with us.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh Jessica talks about you as a mentor and um as a hero of hers in the law.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: And so um what we like to do, we like to kind of start out with our guests, kind of tell us a little bit about you know, growing up, and you know, you ended up as a judge, and now you're gonna be, you know, the the Chief Justice of the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people are gonna be looking at you with pride.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, so how did this all start?
2:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a complete accident.
2:40
SPEAKER_03: So, born and raised in El Paso, I um my parents didn't graduate from high school.
2:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, but for whatever reason, both of them, if I remember correctly, would talk about Harvard and kind of mention that all the time.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: And I did really well in school, and um, you know, there's a lot of stuff, and um, I keep saying that that I'm gonna write a book one day, so there's a lot a lot of gory detail in there.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: But um, for me, uh, being at school was really my safe place.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: I was where I felt I I felt like I knew what was gonna happen, I understood the rules, and I lived really well in that environment.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: So I just really thrived and did really well, and I was lucky enough to be supported because I was such a nerd and and all my teachers supported me.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: So when I was in high school, still having done really well, um, I applied to Harvard and I got in as an early admit.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: And you know, when you get into Harvard, you go, even though I hadn't really didn't really know too much about it.
3:41
SPEAKER_03: I just had known the name from my parents and had applied and and I did go visit and uh it was a quick visit, and so ended up at Harvard undergrad and really um spent four years not making good use of my time.
3:57
SPEAKER_03: I felt that any moment they were a knock on the door and tell me we made a mistake, you you shouldn't have gotten in, and you gotta go home.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: As a consequence, I don't think I really took advantage of what Harvard has to offer.
4:10
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I was uh quiet, I didn't seek out, you know, tutors, and and I just really got by.
4:21
SPEAKER_03: But I credit Harvard with really um helping me figure out what I really love, and what I really love is community service.
4:31
SPEAKER_03: And I was a student leader at Phillips Brooke's house at Harvard, and we did all kinds of uh prisoner education, food salvage, I worked with kids, I did all kinds of public service.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: Also started doing um, I don't remember what we called it then, but we we did some training for students that sort of majority students that had never worked in the inner city, had never worked with black kids, Latino kids.
4:53
SPEAKER_03: And so we would kind of share our experiences with them and and and hopefully help our you know fellow students kind of be better teachers and and counselors with our kids.
5:04
SPEAKER_03: So um did that, and that really is what I love.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: My passion is working in the community, um, but uh no one was gonna hire me at the Red Cross United Way.
5:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, that's where I want to be in life.
5:17
SPEAKER_03: So I went to law school because I figured it was not a bad education.
5:21
SPEAKER_03: And there's actually a story about why I decided to be a lawyer, but that's boring.
5:24
SPEAKER_03: If we get to it, I'll tell you.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: So it was just kind of there.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: And then um, and so here's the other thing being an El Paso girl, I thought I loved winters.
5:33
SPEAKER_03: And I thought, I love winters, I'm going to Massachusetts, and I realized that we have no clue what winters are in El Paso, Texas.
5:42
SPEAKER_03: So for law school, I went to UCLA, which was the other side of the country for sun.
5:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, but also they uh were still offering me scholarship to go to UCLA, so that's how I ended up at UCLA.
5:55
SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I never really thought I would practice law.
6:00
SPEAKER_03: That wasn't that was not why I went to law school.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: I was really looking for that other job.
6:05
SPEAKER_03: And and honestly, I had a fantastic job in California.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: I worked for a place called the Harriet Vueye Center for Family Law, and I was teaching our volunteers, I wasn't going to court, we are helping people who represent themselves.
6:18
SPEAKER_03: I was doing uh the clinics myself in East LA in Spanish.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: Loved that, loved being in the community.
6:24
SPEAKER_03: It really was a perfect job.
6:26
SPEAKER_03: But when I started law school, my oldest was four months old.
6:32
SPEAKER_03: And when I started working, he was four, when on five, and I just felt really disconnected with the schools, and so I went back to El Paso and I just took the first job that I could find, and that was with legal aid.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: And the director at legal aid at that time believed in putting us in the courtroom.
6:54
SPEAKER_03: We would just go to court, and then the rest is sort of history.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: Amazing, yeah, but never in the plan, never in the plan.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: The um the guest just prior to you uh is a UCLA graduate.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know like if maybe you know her.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Her name is Lorena Gonzalez.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, she currently is the um president of the California Labor Federation.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: Um so she's she's basically a labor leader.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: She reminds me of you because she's very committed to kind of community help and service.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Great.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but shot in the dark, you know.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:32
SPEAKER_03: She's probably a lot younger than me.
7:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm like a lot older.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: No, no, you no, no.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: You you guys both look together.
7:39
SPEAKER_03: It's been a long time.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: I would say, you know, mid-20s, early 30s.
7:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: And so um tell us this, Judge.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, often we hear from people that we talk about, talk to in the community that especially when it comes to justice, you know, if they look up on the bench and and see someone that kind of looks like them, reminds them of them, um, you know, it gives them comfort.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, in terms of sitting on the bench in El Paso, Texas, you know, how important do you believe it is to have, you know, a Latina in that uh power seat for others in the community to look up to and appear before?
8:26
SPEAKER_03: I I think it's one of the most important things, right?
8:29
SPEAKER_03: I think there's a whole sense that the system isn't fair.
8:33
SPEAKER_03: And um I I do think that, you know, we have this conversation with my bailiffs all the time because they're law enforcement.
8:39
SPEAKER_03: If you're talking to law enforcement, it doesn't matter where they come from or where they are, and and both my bailiffs are uh Latinos, born and raised in in uh sort of poor communities in El Paso, and they just say that no, everything's fair.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: They arrest people, commit crimes.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: And I said, Reb, you go to certain places, and you know, I've run the numbers in El Paso, it's a heavily Hispanic community, but our uh our population of black defendants is grossly overrepresented given their population, the community.
9:09
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, we have a lot of Latinos.
9:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I say to them that that just not that just doesn't happen.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: So there's this this you know, there's just this um it starts from the beginning from investigation, prosecution of the judges.
9:21
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's really critical.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: I call it procedural justice, just believing that the system is fair.
9:26
SPEAKER_03: It's so important, not just in criminal cases, but in civil cases too.
9:30
SPEAKER_03: And I do think that's why it's important that we have uh mediators who speak Spanish, who can can really communicate with um individuals about the process.
9:40
SPEAKER_03: So for me, I think it's one of the most important things as a judge.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: You know, we all have those days where we think, did I do the right thing or am I making a difference?
9:50
SPEAKER_03: And I just really remind myself that it is it is important to be there, for me to be there.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: And that's um partly why um I reached out to Jessica and why she's so close to my heart, because I really believe it's important to bring people along, to encourage people to be lawyers and to stay in the field because it's it's not just important that the judge um be someone that the that the people who come to the court identify with, but we also need lawyers that they identify with, that they trust, right?
10:21
SPEAKER_03: Who are gonna do handle some of these most important things in their lives.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: So I I I'm I I believe in it 100%.
10:28
SPEAKER_03: I think it's important.
10:29
SPEAKER_03: I think it's important to the larger community that we continue to um make sure that we keep judges on the bench that that represent the community, that look like them, who understand um just walking in the door where they where they're from, who their parents are, and how they were raised.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: It's critical for me.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: It's one of the most important things about my service on the bench.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And so you talked about reaching out to Jessica.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you guys can collectively tell that story.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: So it was probably Jessica reached out first, probably came to the court, but as soon as she came and said, I want to be an intern, I'm losing your headsets.
11:07
SPEAKER_03: Um I was like, this woman is fantastic.
11:11
SPEAKER_03: She's gonna be a leader, she's I mean, just uh super smart, and um I really feel privileged that she came to the court and wanted to intern to for the court.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, I would give her a project, she'd turn it around right away, and it was just like, okay, I've got to look for something else for Jessica to do.
11:30
SPEAKER_03: Her writing's amazing.
11:31
SPEAKER_03: And so I just knew that she um she was gonna be a leader, and I I've you know, I've watched her from afar and see that she's doing really well.
11:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm proud of her.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: But I I think you know, in some sense, uh it is sort of um what I do, and and I think it's important to do it.
11:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I've always been, I I feel like that's something that I get back because I've had amazing people just kind of walk through the door, and I get the privilege of saying, Yeah, I was there.
11:57
SPEAKER_03: I saw her when she was just a student.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Um that's how I remember it.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, for from my perspective, it was it was a little bit different just because I was so starstruck.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: So I was going to school.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: I had a little bit of a similar story.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, I went to school in the Midwest where it was very cold.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: I told myself, never again do I want to be in the cold.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: So I came to law school in San Diego.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I have very close ties to my family, very close ties to El Paso.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: I always thought maybe I'll end up back in El Paso.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: And when I was looking at what am I gonna do after my first year of law school, not having any ties to San Diego, um, I thought, okay, well, everybody's getting clerkships.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: Let me let me look online.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: And your profile came up, and I just spam emailed you.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: I guess you could say I was, you know, let me take a shot in the Denmark and see if this very important judge, you know, who just based on all your involvement, I saw that you were involved with students, Project Um uh Future.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Future.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: I was it's not Project Lead, but it's Project Future, uh, the RSAP program with the women, all of that I found on the internet, which is a great resource.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: And I emailed you and you got back to me right away.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: And I just remember the friendly tone of your email, your response.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: It was absolutely, I'd be more than happy.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, so I show up to El Paso in the summer and you treated me as if we hadn't known each other forever.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: And I was just so humbled.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: And to me, it was, you know, the very first example of someone who I just had in such a high regard, who treated me, you know, with respect and dignity and just such an excitement, right?
13:35
SPEAKER_02: Like you said, to have me in your outroom.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: You were excited, and your entire staff knew who I was, everybody was ready to have me.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: So of course, you know, just being welcomed in that way motivated me and made me just want to do such a good job.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, thinking about this, uh, this kind of a perfect segue, thinking about this uh podcast and being able to talk to you, I wanted to go back to, you know, a quote from one of my uh favorite books, and uh, I'll read it uh so we can just talk about it.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: It says, connection is the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued, when they can give and receive without judgment, and when they derive sustenance and strength from the relationship.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And to me, you know, when I read this quote a very long time, I think I read this book maybe two years ago, it just always stuck with me.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: And I think the relationship and you know, the mentorship that I found in you is just really embodied in that.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: And I know that you personify that, I know that you value those relationships.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit about that, you know, the connection, the importance of connection uh between people.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: I do, I I really, you know, I talk about mentorship a lot because I think it's important.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's because I don't have sisters or but I, you know, there's all these people that quote about an alpha female only has a small group of friends.
14:56
SPEAKER_03: I will tell you, I have a ton of friends that I consider I can call anytime and say personal, professionally, something's going on.
15:06
SPEAKER_03: Um, because I've always um wanted to have those relationships and build those relationships.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: And I and I tell my colleagues who will say, like, everybody knows you.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: You know, we you know, they say, Oh, and Judge Salas Bambosa help me here, and Judge, and it's really not not all that.
15:22
SPEAKER_03: It's just being able to be willing to take the phone call and and to help in any way that I can, and I've really done that uh as much as I could.
15:30
SPEAKER_03: But as I tell my colleagues, I was gonna say, it's intentional, right?
15:33
SPEAKER_03: You you you have to make it an important part of what you do, and so I really think it's important to answer those those emails and to answer the text and to build relationships.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: But I've always found, as I said before, that it's mutual, it's a connection that really feeds both people out of respect and and um and admiration, uh, truly, but but it's but it's individual, right?
15:54
SPEAKER_03: It's not you're not an extension of me, you're an amazing individual person.
15:58
SPEAKER_03: And that is what um mentorship means to me.
16:02
SPEAKER_03: It's being able to support someone in their space, however they want to grow.
16:07
SPEAKER_03: And I've always, you know, people come to me that want to run for office, and I always tell them, this is a bottom line advice.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: Everyone's gonna give you advice.
16:14
SPEAKER_03: You have to decide what works for you, but you always have to decide every day, look yourself in the mirror and say, Am I proud of this campaign?
16:22
SPEAKER_03: Does it reflect who I am as a person?
16:24
SPEAKER_03: And win or lose, if you can do that, it's a win.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: And and I I think that I've always told people you should live that way, right?
16:32
SPEAKER_03: And and try to do that.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: But anyway, so I really think mentorship is important.
16:35
SPEAKER_03: I did want to mention about Project Features, a program we started in El Paso County.
16:38
SPEAKER_03: It was really to provide um internships for uh age-job foster kids.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: And um it was really, you know, these kids uh basically age out of the system, don't have a family.
16:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, and they do have their family, but they were never able to return to them and rely on them.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: And um it was to give them an office job.
16:59
SPEAKER_03: So they, you know, they're able to find work, but it was retail, and and so this was an opportunity for them to work in office spaces.
17:06
SPEAKER_03: So they work with the clerk's office, they work with judges, and I still keep in touch with some of my project feature kids.
17:11
SPEAKER_03: And we um with the women's bar and my lions club, able to give them professional clothing.
17:17
SPEAKER_03: It really was um an amazing program.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: But it, you know, those programs are hard to sustain.
17:22
SPEAKER_03: So year after year, we found a guy that the county um was paying them, we got some, you know, they were paid to do it.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: So it was a really uh fun project, and then the other uh one that you mentioned was the RSAT program.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: And so it's one of the things I'm going to miss.
17:36
SPEAKER_03: And I did talk to my team and my my judge that that uh works a program with me about continuing to do it after I go to the Court of Appeals.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: Um I have a treatment we we do a treatment court program for women who have completed a residential treatment, and so they go into a treatment uh court and it provides greater accountability.
18:00
SPEAKER_03: It's knowing your judge in a way that's not just about sanctions and consequences, but supportive.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: Um and so it's a model that I mean tons of people are doing treatment courts now and they're veteran treatment courts and DWA treatment courts.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: But this one is specifically for women, it's a population that that is unique and and uh and you know, honestly, we as we review our our stats, um not the highly successful court that we'd like it to be, but for us, and I and I talk people all the time, you know, we went through three months of sobriety and and and she was uh there for her children, and so every day is a success when we keep people from uh using, and also we've had some amazing success.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: We had people that went out to college and and come back and and talk to our participants and um just you know the the amazing stories keep you doing that work, and so I couldn't really figure out a way that I could continue to do the work and not being a child judge.
19:00
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I'm gonna miss that work with the women.
19:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean Josh, it sounds like like you really, you know, love people, you know, you talk about the relationships you have, and you know, when you talk about your time on the bench, you know, the importance of having someone that looks like them, maybe came from the same neighborhood as them, you know, speaks their language, and you're doing this great work with these programs.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you think you know that translates to being an appellate court justice?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, how are you gonna bring that passion for people and that kind of cultural understanding to that job?
19:42
SPEAKER_03: I don't know yet because I'm not there, but I um do know, you know, I've sat with the Court of Appeals almost um really throughout my time on the trial bench.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: I've I've been um appointed as an visiting associate justice, and so I've I've sat on a number of cases, and um so I'll tell you a couple of things that come to mind.
20:05
SPEAKER_03: One is that what appellate justices do is uh work on consensus, right?
20:13
SPEAKER_03: They have to get folks who agree with their opinion, and um there's a lot of intellectual wrangling that's involved there.
20:19
SPEAKER_03: So I think that um my passion for building community hopefully will help me there.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: Um but I also think that uh one of the things that I I believe in firmly is not just the judge that matters, but really my team that matters, and I've always had a commitment from my staff about this is how we treat people, this is what we do when people call, even if it's not our job.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: I want you to help them find who can answer their question, assist them.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: And uh and so that I think just bringing that to the Court of Appeals will be helpful in how the work is done.
20:58
SPEAKER_03: It's a very isolated job, very few people go up there.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it is in our courthouse, and so to the extent that you know uh I will make sure that we continue that mission, which is it's our job as as a public servants to help the public and to make sure that we are answering questions that we can answer.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I I think that's just almost intrinsic, right?
21:21
SPEAKER_03: That's the kind of person I am, that's the kind of team I build, and I'm hoping that that's um it's an important part that that is needed.
21:29
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm I'm on a mission that we are going to transform this court um in a way that that it functions well, that people are happy to come to work, um, and and because I I spent a lot of time there, and so I want to be happy when I go to the office.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: And so uh I I think that's the part that that will translate.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the court's gonna be you know very happy to have you as hope.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And kind of, you know, cultural tone.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, very exciting.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Now, did did um Jessica tell you about the the mural here podcast room?
22:08
SPEAKER_00: And who did that?
22:09
SPEAKER_03: I yes, I do know, and I know Jessica's parents too.
22:12
SPEAKER_03: No way.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I when I came in, I'm like, oh my god, it looks so much better in person because I have a picture of it.
22:18
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, I have a picture of it, and I'd seen it and I would like you know, zoom and stuff.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
22:23
SPEAKER_03: And of course, Jessica's amazing parents.
22:26
SPEAKER_03: They're great.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what can I say?
22:28
SPEAKER_02: I was uh telling her this morning that they actually moved out here to help me with my kiddo.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: So that's something that you know uh Judge Salas and I oftentimes would talk about is just our role as mothers.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean we both started our legal profession, you know, as moms with little babies, just trying to make it so she knows how important my parents are and she's met them.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: They were so proud of me going into the courthouse, I remember.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: And um, so yeah, so they're they're here with me now, and I was just telling her about that this morning.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: They're great.
23:01
SPEAKER_03: I would say that um I think, and so here's my my timeline.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: My oldest was four months old when I started law school, and I was pregnant with my daughter when I graduated from law school, and uh my oldest is now actually practicing in Houston.
23:16
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, even though uh his dad and I are divorced, we went to his graduation together, and so he did this um post where he says he posts our picture uh from my law school graduation, and then his dad and I with him at his law school graduation.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: And uh, but I'll tell you about Michael.
23:36
SPEAKER_03: He uh the other day he said that this is not true, but this is a story I absolutely remember because it broke my heart.
23:43
SPEAKER_03: He called me when he was about a junior in in college and said, Mom, was so excited because his English professor said, You know, Michael, I think really you should think about taking the L set.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: You're a very good speaker, you're a good writer, and he called, he gave me all these details up.
23:57
SPEAKER_03: So he went on and on, and I said, Mijo, you know I'm a lawyer, right?
24:02
SPEAKER_03: He said, I know, mom, I know, mom.
24:04
SPEAKER_03: The other day I said it to him and I repeated the story, and he says, No, of course I wanted to follow in your footsteps.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: I don't know about that.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh my daughter has her bachelor's from St.
24:14
SPEAKER_03: John's in toxicology.
24:16
SPEAKER_03: She's finding her way, and then the baby is 21, just graduated from high school.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: Well, not just graduated, he's like three years out now.
24:24
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't want to go to college, he doesn't know what what he wants to do.
24:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, but his entire life, I have almost his entire life, I've been on the bench.
24:33
SPEAKER_03: He was a baby when I were in ran for office the first time.
24:36
SPEAKER_03: So he had his his frame of reference is is so different from his older brother and sister who um were there when I was still trying to figure out um just what I was gonna do.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, like didn't you have your daughter in in law school?
24:56
SPEAKER_02: I did my second week of my first year of law school.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like you know, I hear those stories, and um it makes me think about uh Ruth Bader Ginsburg who like was the mom and then taking care of her husband and and still like just smashing law school.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: It just really it's hard as a male, I think, to imagine.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Like to me, Bosco is like the most stressful, demanding time of my life, and also to be giving birth, you know, to be pregnant, um, to be a mom.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and I don't know, like if I don't know, I just feel like as a male, like I don't know if males would be up to that task.
25:40
SPEAKER_03: My answer would probably be no, but I will say this um, you know, I think it it gives us um sort of a different priority, right?
25:48
SPEAKER_03: Because I I am and by the way, let me be clear, I did not smash law school.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I it was the first time where we need to get through law school is to smash it.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: Well, and I appreciate that, and I'm gonna change my story about it because I did get through it and I actually was licensed in California first, and I and I was not gonna take that bar exam if we're not gonna stay, so that was like, are we gonna stay?
26:09
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm not gonna do this unless we're gonna stay.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: And so coming back to Texas was not planned.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: It would really have to do with the kids, right?
26:16
SPEAKER_03: But um, so I don't feel like I I smashed it, but I also didn't feel like I had to because I had my son, because I had, you know, we were working different shifts so that, or I was at school and dad would work nights so that I could go home, so we could spend as much of our time with with my son.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: And um, and there was just a different priority.
26:38
SPEAKER_03: My priority wasn't being at the top of my class or getting that law firm job.
26:42
SPEAKER_03: My priority was to get out because I needed a job.
26:44
SPEAKER_03: And and in some ways, um, I don't think I had the stress that other people did, because right, even if you go in with a public interest mind, you sometimes get caught up in it, and all of a sudden you think like you have to be on that competitive edge.
26:58
SPEAKER_03: Well, I didn't have it because I had a different priority.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: And uh, and with my daughter, I was um I was pregnant during the bar exam, and I was I I just wanted to have a just regular delivery.
27:13
SPEAKER_03: My son was a C-section, and so I was committed to it.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: So I went about two weeks before the bar exam, and the doctor says, and I was big as a house, big as a house.
27:22
SPEAKER_03: And he says, Oh no, we've got to schedule delivery because and I said, No, I'm taking the bar exam in two weeks, or I don't remember now what it was.
27:31
SPEAKER_03: Anyways, my daughter was born uh August 7th, about 10 days after the bar exam.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: But I think it helped me.
27:39
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I felt good.
27:41
SPEAKER_03: I felt I had all these, I had two bodies hormones.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I felt you had two brains.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: I had two brains.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: I tell her she helped me.
27:50
SPEAKER_03: I I really felt good about it.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: So in a way, it you think you you know, there's all these challenges, but from my perspective, it's it's really what fueled me and in some ways really boosted me.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: So I have not ever seen it as a as a challenge.
28:07
SPEAKER_03: We do become masters of multitasking and it's just how how we function.
28:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it it has its downside, which is burnout, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_03: We have to take that time for ourselves and kind of figure out how to how to not just keep burning the candle at both ends.
28:23
SPEAKER_03: But um, for me, I think those things that other people think are like, how did you do it?
28:27
SPEAKER_03: I don't know how I would have done it without it, right?
28:30
SPEAKER_03: Because that's just what got me through.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: It's all about perspective and you know, just thinking about amazing lawyers, female lawyers and judges.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, tell us about why you're in San Diego uh this weekend.
28:42
SPEAKER_03: So I'm here for the National Association of Women Judges annual meeting.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm a former district director of District 11, which is Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma.
28:50
SPEAKER_03: Um, now my very good friend, Justice Gina Benavidas, is the district director.
28:54
SPEAKER_03: She's rolling off, and Justice Julie Countess of the, I think she's on the 14th Court of Appeals in Texas, is going to become a district director.
29:02
SPEAKER_03: But again, it's that part of, it's been an important part for me to be involved with women across uh the nation and and you know it's it's networking, but it's also part of that um mutual mentoring, right?
29:14
SPEAKER_03: We're there for each other, we all have different experiences, and it's part of what I think has made me um kind of a better judge to know what other people's experiences are.
29:23
SPEAKER_03: I'm excited.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: And so I imagine that must be a rapidly growing group.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, I see like the appointments here at least, and I feel like it's come to the place where it's mainly uh females being appointed to the bench.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Like what if if you know, like what's the trend nationally or in Texas or so I don't know the numbers, but I will tell you this.
29:52
SPEAKER_03: I I do think um that there's some improvements, but I I do know for a fact um that Latina lawyers in Texas are 4%.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
30:03
SPEAKER_03: 4% of all lawyers are uh Latinas.
30:07
SPEAKER_03: And so uh even though it appears that way, it's not necessarily true.
30:12
SPEAKER_03: And um I will tell you that in El Paso, I'm very fortunate.
30:16
SPEAKER_03: It's uh like the community, it's not it, there's largely Hispanic bench men and women, a lot of women, um, but all we have to do is go to our annual training.
30:27
SPEAKER_03: We're reminded we are still the minority.
30:30
SPEAKER_03: The majority of judges in El Paso are white men who have been there a really long time.
30:36
SPEAKER_03: And and then so as the numbers start to grow, then all of a sudden the rules change, right?
30:40
SPEAKER_03: Now there's different requirements and and and all kinds of things, which is fine because I have I I've always said that the uh Latino and Latinx judge is more qualified because we've always had to be.
30:52
SPEAKER_03: That's just the way it is, we're used to it, and I think there's this perception that we're not.
30:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I I don't think we've ever had a problem with increased qualifications, but it's just kind of an interesting thing.
31:03
SPEAKER_03: Um, in so many of my organizations, there are a lot of women.
31:07
SPEAKER_03: About three years ago, we uh formed the organization called Texas Latinx Judges.
31:12
SPEAKER_03: It's one of only five uh statewide organizations of Latino Hispanic uh judges.
31:18
SPEAKER_03: Ours is the first that we use Latinx, and that's controversial.
31:22
SPEAKER_03: But we chose it on purpose.
31:24
SPEAKER_03: And for us, it was really to designate that we are um we embrace our non-binary brothers and sisters, but also that it's not just Mexican-American, that it's Puerto Ricans, that it's you know, all uh Latinx uh judges.
31:40
SPEAKER_03: And um it's now largely women and leadership, and we'll have some judges tell us we thought it was a women's organization.
31:48
SPEAKER_03: And I said, no, not a women's organization, but the people that have risen to leadership are women, and so she is amazing, and she did she she did a great job, but she was one of the speakers at the annual meeting for the state bar of Texas, and um, and so she was she was amazing, and actually wasn't she was not the person who gave this the stats, but she really talked about her experience, and I think um I had I didn't really follow the kid.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean I saw snippets, I didn't really follow it.
32:18
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was a little bit too yeah, too Hollywood, whatever.
32:24
SPEAKER_03: Even though I was at UCLA when we had the riots, when we had it was shortly after I think uh OJ Simpson, all that stuff, right?
32:35
SPEAKER_03: So I know how things are, but um, but she was a really good speaker and really talked about how what what's really opened up for her is opportunities, and she's doing some litigation in Texas.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: But the speaker who actually gave the stats about 4% Latina lawyers is Judge uh Irma Carrillo Ramirez.
32:55
SPEAKER_03: She's the first Latina appointed to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, and um, so she was fantastic and she provided the stats, and the state bar, like all public institutions in Texas, can't be controversial, can't, you know, be looking at diversity.
33:10
SPEAKER_03: She just provided their own numbers.
33:12
SPEAKER_03: So the own the state bar's own numbers uh show this stat.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: And I love that meeting saying, I am not going to apologize anymore for women leadership because we're 4% of the population.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: And why is it our fault that they we rise to the top and that we're the ones that are getting things done or organizing the programs?
33:34
SPEAKER_03: Um we try still to get our uh male colleagues involved, but we we just haven't succeeded.
33:41
SPEAKER_03: I'm trying less because I think like, why am I doing all the hard work?
33:44
SPEAKER_03: They don't do it for me.
33:45
SPEAKER_03: They don't try to do it for me.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: That's an often repeated pattern, what you were describing.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: So it appears that way.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: I do think there's improvement, but I don't think um, you know, it's that we've gotten to the place where women are the majority of judges or that we're getting the majority of appointments.
34:02
SPEAKER_03: I do think, and I'm a little biased, that women are better judges, and I I do think that partly it's because of our sense of empathy and fairness.
34:15
SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
34:17
SPEAKER_03: I I think there's just this sense of how would I want to be treated, right?
34:20
SPEAKER_03: And I think for my courtroom, I've always the bottom line is this, and I've always said to people, um, and we you and I had this conversation before about which practice do I like more, and I I really enjoy the criminal practice more just because it's busier.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: But I went to law school and uh went into, you know, the Harriet Buhigh Center for Family Law was all family law, the legal aid, that's what I wanted to do, access to justice issues, but I purposely did not learn criminal law.
34:47
SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to know anything about criminal law because I thought, like, all my cousins and all my family are gonna call me because they want representation.
34:56
SPEAKER_03: And I I need to be able to say, look, I can't help you because I don't really know.
34:59
SPEAKER_03: So it was a very intentional, purposeful decision.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: Um, because that's my people.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: That's my people.
35:06
SPEAKER_03: I don't, to me, I think it's important that everyone get treated fairly.
35:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, I tell my prosecutors, we've had young prosecutors that come through the bench.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: I have to continue to tell them, trial is traumatic for everybody.
35:21
SPEAKER_03: Even the winner has to, they the nerves of being on the witness stand, of going through trial for a week, it's traumatic.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: And on the criminal side, um, even when the decisions are hard, and I had a colleague in like all the groups that I'm in that had to render a life sentence, and I've had to do that a few times, and and it wasn't my decision, it's your the jury decision, but as the judge, even just reading it, it's hard, right?
35:46
SPEAKER_03: And I said to her, when you're ready to talk, we can talk.
35:49
SPEAKER_03: But I also said, when you stop caring is when you should stop being a judge.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: When it doesn't matter to you that that person isn't going home and that that person's family, because no matter who they are, they have family who love them, will miss them, will not see them in the same way again.
36:09
SPEAKER_03: We shouldn't be judges and we don't care about that, right?
36:11
SPEAKER_03: And on the other side, obviously the family, there's no vindication, right?
36:16
SPEAKER_03: If you've suffered a harm, whether it's a death or a serious injury, having someone go to prison might help a little, but it doesn't bring back the loss, right?
36:27
SPEAKER_03: And uh and I think too on the plaintiff's side, when you think about your work, everybody thinks it's so distilled and it's just you know money, and it's traumatic, it's traumatic, and I I um I always remember that and I make the staff remember that because that's why we need to treat people well.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: Because when they're coming to the court, there's already a lot of emotion and a lot of stress, and the last thing they need is a judge who's disrespectful or yelling them or not caring or aloof.
36:57
SPEAKER_03: And same for the staff.
36:58
SPEAKER_03: So they know we're there, we're on, we have a job to do, and I think um I think we wouldn't do it better.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not gonna dispute that you're close to the judge, you know, so I can't I can't argue.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, I will say I looked up this Camille Vasquez.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure I said it right because I was thinking that, but I know it's your daughter.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I'm gonna invite her.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: I think she'd be a good guest.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So I said your name right.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Camille Vosquez.
37:25
SPEAKER_03: And she is great.
37:26
SPEAKER_03: And I think also she's so young that I think that it's really good for young women to see someone who um and and so what she talks about is the relationship she built with uh with Johnny Depp.
37:38
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't just about this high-profile thing.
37:40
SPEAKER_03: She'd done some other work for him, and that's why he wanted her on his team because he knew her, he trusted her.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: It's to be sure.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: And so we have a lot of um, you know, uh lawyers and law students and you know, uh that are gonna be listening to this.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Um and so you've seen a lot of lawyers come before you on the bench.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, what advice would you give those law students or younger lawyers about how to be their very best self in court uh representing someone that needs help?
38:29
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm sure it's all the advice that everyone has already heard, right?
38:32
SPEAKER_03: You have to be authentic, you have to be yourself.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: I do think you need to um do your homework, which is be prepared, make sure you're you know your case, you know the law.
38:41
SPEAKER_03: Um I think it's always helpful to be respectful.
38:43
SPEAKER_03: I think I it's changing a little bit now back, but there was a period of time there where I felt the lawyers were really just not very respectful.
38:52
SPEAKER_03: They've gotten sort of aggressive.
38:54
SPEAKER_03: And it's and maybe true, it just sort of depends where you are.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: El Paso has never been that bar.
38:58
SPEAKER_03: We've always had a very respectful bar, but even you know, even our bar got a little bit gnarly, and so that that never helps.
39:07
SPEAKER_03: And I I talk a lot to lawyers and I always say I don't like it when lawyers fight with each other.
39:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, because sometimes I see those emails and I'm like, in what world is that appropriate?
39:17
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know.
39:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, so I sometimes I've had to stop hearings to tell lawyers, listen, you need to work this out.
39:24
SPEAKER_03: Come back when you're ready to argue the motion, but something's going on here that doesn't work for me.
39:29
SPEAKER_03: I tell lawyers all the time I don't like lawyers who don't, who are collegial, who don't get along with each other.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think that some sometimes comes easily for some people, and other people have to work at it.
39:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, if you tend to be an aggressive lawyer, I would say work on that because collegiality goes a long way.
39:44
SPEAKER_03: Cases come and go, but relationships with your fellow members of the bar, um, that that's your reputation.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: So I would say that.
39:52
SPEAKER_03: And I would say, especially for our community, um, you know, I am that um that person who never really believed in themselves, and I still kind of say that.
40:04
SPEAKER_03: I'm talking to someone right now.
40:05
SPEAKER_03: I was getting ready to run for office, and um and and the question was, why do you do all these things?
40:11
SPEAKER_03: And I said, Because I'm always worried that I I'm not doing enough.
40:16
SPEAKER_03: You know, am I reaching the right people?
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Am I giving the right message?
40:20
SPEAKER_03: To this day, that imposter syndrome feeds so much of what I do.
40:24
SPEAKER_03: It's not healthy, but it's why we also stay on top of the ball, right?
40:28
SPEAKER_03: And we get things done.
40:29
SPEAKER_03: Um but I would say you are enough.
40:32
SPEAKER_03: You are enough, you are smart enough, you can do this, and it is so important that you stick with it because there are a lot of people who are gonna look to you to help them, and they need you to be in the profession doing a good job.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Amazing, great advice.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: Closing remarks, Miss Lulan.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm still on Cloud Nine, so I'm very happy that you know this all came together that we were able to make it happen.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for taking the time, Judge Salas.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean, it's an honor, and I got to introduce you to my boss.
41:04
SPEAKER_03: I have one more thing to add.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: Please do.
41:06
SPEAKER_03: Listen, because I've known like heavy women, and and I um actually I do believe that, but you're a testament to not all our mentors are women.
41:16
SPEAKER_03: And uh Jessica and I have an important mentor who we lost uh recently, and that's Clinton Cross.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: Clinton Cross founded Texas Legal Services Corporation.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: He knew every case he ever studied.
41:28
SPEAKER_03: He was 83, 83.
41:30
SPEAKER_03: 83.
41:31
SPEAKER_03: And I'd sit down to lunch with him and he would cite cases, and I think I have to keep writing this down.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: He was an amazing lawyer, dedicated to the law, and really access to justice issues.
41:43
SPEAKER_03: And he was the whitest guy ever.
41:46
SPEAKER_03: So um I think it's important that we support each other.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: I do believe that women are are strong and that we need to support each other.
41:54
SPEAKER_03: But I've had some very important male mentors along the way, and I know that you have too.
41:59
SPEAKER_03: And uh and and I I believe that we we have to look everywhere for those people that inspire us to lead us, to guide us, and that it shouldn't all look one way.
42:10
SPEAKER_03: That sometimes the leaders that um are really gonna guide us don't look like us at all.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: And thank you for bringing up Clinton.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so thank you so much, Your Honor.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here with us, taking time out of your busy schedule.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy your time in San Diego with the other judges.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, thank you for your empathetic, uh compassionate leadership at the court.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, we need more judges like you, uh, and you know, hopefully, you know, more lawyers uh that share those values.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's an important message that you gave uh today.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Um and so this will wrap up this episode of the La Tino Podcast.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Um we encourage our listeners um to tune in and to uh subscribe.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: You can find us on um Spotify, Apple, and all the other channels.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Um so until next time, signing off John Gomez uh with the La Tino Podcast.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Latino podcast.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.