Latest / Project Podcast / Diverse routes into the profession: career stories from APM’s Women in Project Management Interest Network

Transcript

Diverse routes into the profession: career stories from APM’s Women in Project Management Interest Network · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:12
the project profession. My name's Emma DaVita, and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:19
In this podcast I'm speaking to four project professionals who
0:22
volunteer for APM's Women in Project Management or Whippam
0:25
Group. The 2024 WHIP and conference in
0:28
September was a sellout, a really buzzy event with so many
0:32
people from so many different walks of project life.
0:35
So we thought it would be a great idea to bring together 4
0:38
project professionals who have all found their own unique path
0:41
to a career in project management.
0:44
They'll be sharing their experience of switching sectors
0:46
and coming to project management from a non traditional career
0:49
path and giving plenty of advice on how to successfully find your
0:54
own way up for the career ladder.
0:56
So let's introduce them. First up is Irene Maposa, a
1:04
senior IT project manager and since 2023, chair of APM's Whip
1:09
and group. She's also visiting lecturer at
1:11
the University of East London through Whippam.
1:15
Irene is focused on implementing positive change by raising
1:18
awareness, celebrating diversity, creating
1:21
opportunities and supporting networks within the project
1:24
management profession. Hi, Irene, welcome.
1:27
Hello Emma. Thank you for having me today.
1:30
I'd also like to welcome Chibuzzo Ike, who started her
1:32
career in accounting before joining her family's
1:35
construction and heavy equipment business, where she began
1:38
managing projects. This was when she caught the
1:41
project management bug, going on to pursue a master's degree in
1:44
project management. She is now successful project
1:47
manager at RJ Emmanuel. Welcome, Chibuzzo.
1:51
Hi. Iman, thank you for having me.
1:54
Let's meet Rochelle Sampson Clark who works for the NHS
1:57
where she's a successful Digital Intelligence project Manager
2:00
within the Project Management office.
2:03
Her journey into project management began when she
2:05
changed careers and started a job as a project officer.
2:09
She was soon offered a project management degree
2:11
apprenticeship, an opportunity she decided to take despite
2:14
having a 5 year old child and being in her 30s.
2:17
It was a great decision giving her the skills and confidence to
2:20
transition into a project manager role within a different
2:23
organisation. Hi, Rochelle.
2:26
Hi Emma, It's really nice to be here.
2:28
Thanks for having me. And finally, let's meet Nadia
2:31
Krossova, who's the legal project manager at law firm
2:34
Saccas. She started her career as a
2:36
financial services consultant where she discovered her
2:39
interest in overseeing the entire project life cycle.
2:43
She decided to pursue a project management certification while
2:46
still working as a financial lead.
2:48
And today, she is a project manager leading cross functional
2:51
teams on complex legal and financial projects.
2:54
So hi, Nadia, welcome. Hi, Emma.
2:57
Thanks for the invite. OK, Welcome everyone.
3:00
Thanks for joining us, lots of you with lots of different
3:04
career paths. So I think we'd like to hear
3:07
really how you, each of you found your own way into career
3:11
in project management. Why did you want to move into
3:14
the world of project management? How did you get into it?
3:17
So perhaps, Rochelle, would you like to begin to tell us a bit
3:20
about your career journey? Yes.
3:22
So for me, I actually didn't initially want to go into
3:26
project management. It wasn't something that I
3:29
really knew very much about at the time.
3:31
However, I found that I had a lot of transferable skills from
3:34
previous roles and life experience etcetera that was
3:37
kind of suited to project management.
3:40
And because project management wasn't my first career, I did
3:44
end up moving from the organisation I was in as an
3:47
admin manager into a different organisation, but still within
3:51
the NHSI. Kind of just really started to
3:56
apply for roles within project management, knowing that I
3:59
didn't actually have any formal qualifications, but the
4:02
experience and transferable skills that I had would be a
4:05
great foundation for me to get my foot into the door and that's
4:09
where I started my project management journey.
4:11
How did you hear about project management in the 1st place?
4:14
How did that come up as a career that you thought you might be
4:17
interested in? Within the my organisation at
4:20
the time, I actually heard about coaching because I was in my
4:25
career for about 6 years and not really progressing.
4:29
So at the time I wasn't really able to identify what I wanted
4:33
to do. I knew I wanted to change, but
4:35
it was a coach that initially helped me to identify those
4:39
skills, those transferable skills and she actually
4:43
suggested that what I was interested in, the skills I had
4:48
would be really good for sort of project management type of role.
4:51
So coaching really helped me to identify that.
4:54
OK. So obviously you were in your
4:56
career feeling a bit stuck and it was used at proactively sort
5:00
out some career advice. Yeah, yeah.
5:03
I was getting to an age where I knew I wanted to progress.
5:08
I had a family and then stuff like that.
5:11
So I did things the other way around.
5:14
I was now ready to progress my career.
5:16
So it's good match for you between your skills and what
5:19
you're actually doing. Can I ask what do you enjoy
5:21
about project management? I like the accomplishment.
5:26
I like. So I'm very structured.
5:27
So the process of managing projects, there's never a
5:31
project that's the same, but there's always sort of an end
5:33
goal. So moving towards that in, you
5:37
know, and managing all the elements that you need to get to
5:40
that I really enjoy. But for me, it's ultimately the
5:43
end, the completion, the handover, the, you know, knowing
5:48
that I've done a successful project and provided what the
5:52
customer or the client requires. Is it everything you thought it
5:56
would be? It is.
5:58
I think I'm learning more and more as I go along.
6:01
So there are so many elements because it's so multifunctional.
6:05
You learn about the concept, but there are so many different
6:08
elements that you need to put into place and skills that you
6:12
need to have and knowledge that you need to manage projects.
6:16
So I'm constantly learning, but it is really enjoyable.
6:21
Nadia, tell me about your career journey and what drew you to
6:24
project manager. So like Rochelle, you came from
6:27
a different kind of sexual function.
6:29
So. So tell me about your journey.
6:32
I actually think that my journey in project management began at
6:38
high school and at the time I did not realise that this was a
6:42
project management research. But I was a part of a charity
6:46
organisation and me and group of friends, we had to basically
6:53
conduct a project and organise a charity marathon to raise funds
6:58
for the reconstruction of a fortress nearby my hometown.
7:02
So that was probably my first touch with project management.
7:07
Later on, when I joined uni, I also was aware of different
7:15
charities that you can be part of.
7:17
So I joined the student organisation where I manage
7:22
projects related to bringing foreign students in my home
7:26
country to teach English. That's back in Bulgaria.
7:31
So in my last year of uni, I was a national project manager for
7:36
the organisation, coordinating those type of projects in six
7:41
different cities in the country. However, my professional career,
7:46
as you mentioned, did not start in project management, it did
7:51
start in financial services. And the nature of the work in
7:55
financial services aligns well with using projects.
8:00
So I had the touch of project management and being part of the
8:03
project. But then later on, I was working
8:07
on this massive investment project where my manager
8:11
actually asked me to lead part of the project and project
8:16
manage this part of the project. And this is where I kind of
8:21
stepped in for the first time in my professional career as a
8:24
project manager. So that was kind of building on
8:28
your earlier experience of volunteering and did you think,
8:31
OK, this is this is where I need to be, this is what I enjoy
8:34
doing? It took me a while to actually
8:38
move to a pure project management role because I was
8:43
still as a consultant. So I stayed as a consultant with
8:49
that organisation and then moved to another organisation, again
8:53
as a consultant. But because the nature of the
8:57
work is based on doing projects, it was more like a hybrid
9:02
project management and consultancy role.
9:05
And it was until later on when I actually moved to a pure project
9:10
management role. Chibuzzo, could you tell me a
9:15
bit about how you got into the world of project management
9:18
because you had a similar shift in focus in your career?
9:23
So I would love to know a bit about how you've found yourself
9:26
working in project management. My journey started when I joined
9:31
my family business and we're actually into construction and
9:35
heavy equipment. So when I got in there, I
9:38
realised that everything that was going on there was just a
9:41
project like is, is a project management thing going on there
9:46
and been there for a while. I realised that naturally I have
9:50
most of the skills that that are needed to succeed in, in, in, in
9:54
project management. So that was how I realised how
9:58
much I enjoy organising tasks and bringing teams together to
10:02
achieve a common goal. But I I felt that I needed to
10:06
know more. So what I did was to take a
10:10
break from the business and pursue my master's degree.
10:14
How was that did you when you were doing the masters, were you
10:16
thinking, yes, this is the career for?
10:18
Me, yes, yes. So when when I started my
10:21
masters I I realised that this is where I where I want to be.
10:27
OK. And Irene, tell us a bit about
10:29
how you ended up in project management.
10:32
So bit different from everyone else, I stamped along into
10:38
project management whilst I was at university.
10:41
I got to understand a natural ability that I had as an
10:47
individual because at the time I was studying business studies
10:51
and we're having to do all these business profiles and understand
10:56
psychometric psychometrics about yourself.
10:59
And I came to immediately understand that I was very good
11:04
at planning. And this stems from early
11:07
childhood. I've always been a planner.
11:09
I like to plan things and I want to, I always, I'm excited about
11:18
leading up to something, if that makes sense.
11:21
I was lucky enough that that was quickly validated by my mother.
11:26
She said, yes, of all my children, you're very good at
11:29
planning. And my dad put a stamp on that
11:33
as well. So that kind of gave me the
11:36
confidence at university to say, right, I want to start looking
11:41
into planning events, project management, something along
11:46
those lines. But it was until I volunteered
11:50
at university to be part of the the project with the European
11:54
Commission, that as an assistant project coordinator.
12:00
That landed me into project management.
12:02
Because then I learnt OK, I am really good at planning and I
12:08
learnt all the different tools, techniques and just to be how to
12:14
lead and support at the same time.
12:17
So unlike the others, you went, you knew early on from
12:21
university that this is the path you were going to take, and
12:24
that's what you've pursued. So I think actually speaking to
12:27
all of you, you realise how flexible project management is
12:30
as a career because you can come in as an apprentice, you can
12:33
come in at a kind of mid level and crossover.
12:37
It's that kind of sector shifting idea, which is
12:40
something we've talked about in projects before actually is as
12:43
the profession matures and corporates and other
12:46
organisations really recognise the job title project manager,
12:51
especially if you're, if you're chartered that in fact you have
12:54
that ability to shift sectors and crossover.
12:58
I mean, that kind of brings me to my next question, which is to
13:01
ask how did your experience in another sector contribute to
13:05
your success as a project manager?
13:07
So Chibuzzo, is that, is that something that that you'd like
13:11
to contribute to? My previous experience in
13:15
construction sector, that's my family business.
13:18
It helped me developed essential skills such as problem solving,
13:24
time management which are all crucial for effective project
13:28
management and also interacting with various stakeholders in my
13:32
previous role on my ability to manage expectations and and
13:38
build strong relationships which is actually vital for project
13:42
management success. So I think what that highlights
13:46
is the importance of the experience you have in the real
13:49
world when you're in a business and you're dealing with clients
13:52
and you're dealing with stakeholders and real problems,
13:55
especially I imagine within the world of construction, you know,
13:58
you get a chance to practise, to deal with these real life
14:01
issues. So then you bring all of that
14:02
expertise to your kind of project management portfolio, I
14:07
guess of tools and how about you Nadia, because you also switched
14:11
over from a different sect. So what what held you in good
14:14
stead from sort of world of finance to to actually running
14:18
projects? I agree with what she was
14:21
mentioned and just to add to this, as I mentioned, I was in
14:25
consultancy and being a consultant you need to be able
14:30
to look at the big picture, consider all the moving beads,
14:34
blockers and understand how to deliver which is still crucial
14:42
for project management and very important for a successful
14:45
project manager. I also had a lot of client
14:48
facing experience and stakeholder management
14:51
experience being part of financial services.
14:55
So later on when I had to manage people and manage client
14:59
expectations on a project, that was easier for me.
15:03
I think dealing with clients, dealing with stakeholders, and
15:06
often the difficult conversations that need to be
15:09
had, it requires that kind of nuanced approach that you can
15:12
only pick up by having been there and, and done it.
15:15
I mean, talking to you now, it all sounds wonderful.
15:18
You're switching to project management.
15:19
But I, I can imagine that there must have been challenges as
15:22
well, that there must have been personal challenges to starting
15:26
a new career. I mean, I'd love to ask you what
15:29
challenges did you face moving into project management and how
15:34
did you overcome them? So any tips to people who are
15:37
listening about overcoming challenges, moving into a new
15:40
sector or into the world of project management perhaps.
15:43
Rochelle, would you like to give any advice or tell us about how
15:47
the challenges you faced were overcome?
15:50
Yeah. So I had, I have a legal
15:53
background, but then I moved into mental health.
15:56
So the challenges I faced moving into project management at the
16:00
time was that I actually had no formal project management
16:03
experience and I needed to be able to demonstrate those skills
16:08
that would be suitable for me to sort of get an entry level
16:11
project management job. Hence why I went to the coach
16:14
and that really helped with the progression into project
16:18
management as a project officer. And I think that there are a lot
16:21
of people who have been in the same job or the sector, same
16:25
sector or career for a very long time.
16:27
And because we forget those skills, I think it can be
16:31
challenging for us to then want to push ourselves out of that
16:35
safe box into something new. I also, I think a lot of women
16:41
also struggle with, you see the job applications for the job and
16:45
it's a project management role or a project officer role, but
16:48
you're not ticking every single box, which means that you're not
16:52
going to put yourself forward for that.
16:55
So I think overcoming those sort of things that hold you back is
17:00
really crucial. So for me, coaching really
17:04
helped me to to do that, to take the first step.
17:07
So it's that building up your kind of self-confidence being in
17:10
a new. Yeah, so.
17:12
Yeah, it's the, it's a self-confidence, but also
17:15
without, because I didn't have any formal project management
17:18
qualifications at the time. What I did to overcome that was
17:21
I knew I wanted to get that job, but I also found three courses
17:26
online. So I actually before I started
17:30
applying, I found an Open University course, a free one
17:33
online. So I took things into my own
17:36
hands to sort of say, well, if this is the journey I want to
17:39
take, what opportunities are out there for me?
17:42
There are lots of podcasts, there are lots of free books and
17:46
guidance that you can use just to so you get some understanding
17:50
and some backgrounds. So you're not going into your
17:53
new career or the project management sector totally blind
17:56
and. What about when you're actually
17:59
in that role in its early days and you feel like the newbie?
18:02
Did you have the courage to ask others and be quite open about?
18:06
Look, I don't no what you're talking about.
18:09
There's language that belongs to every different section.
18:12
It can be. You can either brazen it out and
18:15
pretend that you know what everyone's talking about, or you
18:17
can be brave and ask what does that mean?
18:20
What? Any advice around that?
18:21
What did you do? Yes.
18:24
So as I've gotten older, I've learned to build up resilience
18:29
and to understand that I'm, I rather go in with people knowing
18:34
that I, I, I'm not an expert in this.
18:36
I don't, I'm not, I'm not going to know exactly all the
18:39
technical terms of, of what you're talking about.
18:43
But if I'm open with the people in the room with me in meetings,
18:47
the, the team I'm managing, the idea is that they're the experts
18:51
and they can help to educate me. So I'm always go in any new job,
18:56
in any new organisation, whatever I'm doing, I'm open.
19:00
And I will say I'm new to this. You're just going to have to
19:03
bear with me whilst I get through this.
19:06
And you know what I find in project management and in most
19:10
sectors of project management, I don't know if anyone agrees, but
19:12
you go in and there's acronyms everywhere and from from sectors
19:18
to sector, acronyms mean different things in different
19:21
sectors. So it's even things like that.
19:24
So I would do things like making a list of acronyms and what that
19:28
meant. And I'd ask, just ask as many
19:31
questions. It's no question.
19:33
It's a silly question because you don't want to sort of wing
19:38
your way through it. You need support and people to
19:41
help you. And don't you find that people
19:44
actually like to help other people?
19:46
Yes. It can seem daunting.
19:50
Anything. No, no.
19:51
Why would they help me? But actually, even senior people
19:54
will take time out to support you because people like helping
19:57
each other out. Is that what you've found?
20:00
Yeah, I think that in project management you usually bring a
20:04
group of stakeholders together, a group of people together who
20:06
have a common aim. It's not always a common aim.
20:09
People have their own, you know what, what they want to get out
20:13
of it. But when you have that, it's in
20:16
everyone's interest to help everyone to get along and to
20:18
move along the journey to get to the end result.
20:21
So I do find project management a very sort of supportive
20:26
industry when it comes to that. We're all working together.
20:32
Chibuzzo, were there any challenges that you face and how
20:36
did you overcome those? And they tips you pass on to
20:38
listeners. I faced several challenges
20:43
including lack of formal training in project management,
20:46
which Rochelle has already talked about and and also I I
20:51
faced the challenge of the need to build credibility in a new
20:55
role. Initially, when I started, I
20:58
felt overwhelmed by the complexity of managing divorce
21:02
teams and navigating stakeholder stakeholders expectations.
21:07
But to overcome this challenge, I pursued a master's degree in
21:10
project management, which provided me with the theoretical
21:13
knowledge and practical skills that I needed, and I also sought
21:17
mentorship from experienced project managers, which also
21:20
helped me to gain insights and best practises.
21:23
We say you sort out mentors. Where was that, like a formal
21:27
mentorship or an informal one? How did you go about finding
21:30
mentors? Actually, my first tab was on
21:34
LinkedIn. Yeah, that was where I found my
21:37
my first mentor and she has really played a major role in my
21:42
in my career. Yeah, that's fantastic and goes
21:46
back to what we were saying earlier about people being
21:48
willing to help other people climb the career ladder.
21:51
Thank. Thank you.
21:53
We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the
21:57
project profession. When you become an APM member,
22:00
you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
22:02
impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
22:06
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
22:09
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you
22:13
reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
22:17
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
22:23
We've been talking about the challenges, but and we've, we've
22:25
talked a bit about the skills and training you need to
22:28
acquire. What were the actual differences
22:32
between your, your kind of older, your previous career and
22:37
and project management and and how did you adapt to them?
22:40
Is anyone, would anyone like to answer that question?
22:44
So. For me, working within mental
22:46
health, it kind of really gave me an appreciation and an
22:49
understanding about the importance of soft skills that
22:53
are required when managing and leading project teams.
22:56
So things like having empathy for your project team and for
23:00
your stakeholders. It really allowed me to be able
23:04
to bring project teams together and it and, and to get better
23:08
output. I was able to adapt my mental
23:12
health skills to the project management setting by building
23:16
more rapport with people. All the key individuals in the
23:19
team and forging relationships and open lines of communication
23:24
are really key for projects. This all sounds brilliant, but
23:28
how do you how do you actually make that happen in real life?
23:30
So you're talking about building rapport and how do you do that?
23:33
Because some people will say when I've interviewed other
23:36
people, very senior people, and they said just take the time to
23:40
have a coffee or whatever, have lunch with someone outside of
23:45
the kind of nine to the desk or the team or wherever you are.
23:49
How do you actually do it in practise?
23:51
How do you build those relationships and find the time
23:54
to do it? Well, actually since I've been
23:57
part of Whipham, I was the well-being subgroup lead a few
24:01
years back and myself and a couple of other members of the
24:06
group, we created something called a workplace well-being
24:09
profile because I really am enthusiastic about improving
24:15
communication at work and understanding your team
24:17
etcetera. So the tool is designed for
24:21
teams to to get to know each other as individuals.
24:26
Firstly, because not everybody wants to sit down together and
24:29
have lunch. Some people want to sit in their
24:31
car and be away, that's their time.
24:33
So it's really important to understand individuals in your
24:37
team, especially when you're working with the same people in
24:41
your project team. A lot of organisations you have
24:43
the same individuals working in project teams, not necessarily
24:46
multi cross functional teams. So just being able to have those
24:52
conversations about what people prefer, but also understanding
24:57
that we've got deadlines, but I can clearly identify that
25:01
someone in my team is struggling and making sure that the lines
25:04
of communication are open so that it can be shared so that
25:07
they feel comfortable to, to share.
25:09
Because at the end of the day, we don't want our projects to be
25:13
slipping. We can put things into place to
25:16
mitigate that. But we we do need to have better
25:19
communication with the people that we work with so that we
25:23
can, we can help them if they're having any problems or that
25:28
might be impacting our projects. No one's ever raised that before
25:32
about asking someone if they actually would like the idea of
25:36
having coffee with you or having lunch with you.
25:39
Do you just basically ask someone like I'd like to get to
25:42
know you a bit better can what would you like to do or how do
25:46
you ask that first question if someone you don't know?
25:48
It's really hard. Yeah, I think it, it's about
25:52
it's the difference between managing and leading.
25:54
So some people will just want to manage the team, they just want
26:01
to get the work done. But what I found, so the idea
26:05
behind the tool that we created was that it's something that's
26:10
each individual creates. So it's their, their
26:12
preferences, their likes, their needs.
26:16
How will other members of my team identify if I'm struggling?
26:20
What are my wishes? What would I like other members
26:23
of my team to do to help me? So it all stems from the
26:27
individual, first of all. So you put it in their hands.
26:31
They they, they note down their preferences and their wishes.
26:36
And then the open, the open communication starts from there.
26:40
It forms the basis, but it puts it in the individual's hands.
26:44
They share as much or as little as they want with you.
26:48
That sounds brilliant. Is this?
26:49
Is this tool still available? Like can anyone?
26:52
How can you find out more about it?
26:55
Yes, so it is still available on the APM website.
26:59
It's called the Workplace Well-being Profile.
27:01
OK, that sounds excellent. Emma, can I just add quickly
27:05
onto that about what Rochelle was saying.
27:09
So as APM, one of the things that I'd like to do is whether
27:14
I'm working with individuals that I knew are diverse,
27:17
extroverted, etcetera, is to what's called the coffee
27:21
roulette. Coffee roulette.
27:23
OK, what's coffee roulette? Right.
27:25
So I set up in meetings 15 minutes at the beginning of each
27:29
project because people feel what they don't understand.
27:32
So if they don't know you, they're going to be a bit closed
27:35
off. So I make it my business to make
27:37
to understand them before we get into the project.
27:41
I have a saying which is everywhere you go on my
27:43
LinkedIn. Good project managers know their
27:47
plans, but great project managers know their people.
27:51
So it's about building that people rapport and by doing that
27:55
you ask practically coffee roulette, setting up 15 minutes.
27:59
Hi, I'm Irene, I'm the new PM, just want to understand a bit
28:03
more about you. Along with the workplace profile
28:06
that Rochelle mentioned, you can then also build on that and say,
28:10
right, I noticed you said this in your profile.
28:13
Is there anything else I need to know?
28:15
People love to talk about themselves.
28:17
Even the most quietest person will tell you about their dog.
28:20
You know, people love talking about themselves and that
28:25
sometimes some people might not be comfortable doing it in a, a
28:30
space of a tea. So the coffee roulette does
28:33
help. 15 minutes once a month. How are you?
28:37
What's going on? And it's just about talking
28:39
about them, not the project, not anything else that's happening
28:43
at work. By doing that, I find as an
28:47
ethnic minority that people really gravitate towards me, if
28:51
that makes sense, because I genuinely do care about people
28:54
and I want to know the status. So that helps me then with my
28:58
planning. And I'll also ask them the
29:00
question, what are you worried about during this project?
29:04
We're about to commence the what are some of your things that
29:07
you're excited about? What are the some of the things
29:10
that you're stressed about? What I wanted to ask you
29:13
specifically about was obviously you're a chair of Whipham and I
29:17
think this has been really interested to know how being a
29:20
woman in project management has influenced your career journey
29:23
experience. In fact, it's something that I'd
29:24
like to ask all of you if you've got an opinion on it.
29:28
My experience as a woman in project management has been
29:33
shaped through various leadership roles with strong
29:38
emphasis on creating diversity and inclusion and supporting,
29:42
supporting work environment. So and being a leader that's
29:46
seen, I believe project managers are leaders.
29:49
So being seen as a leader who really cares about people and
29:55
more because when you care about people, they intend are more
30:00
engaged in the work that they need to do, if that makes sense.
30:03
So through my involvement, for example with Women in project
30:07
Management network, I've been able to emphasise the importance
30:12
of membership networking as well as finding critical pathways for
30:19
women in project management. But most importantly, if I am to
30:25
narrow it down, mentorship has played a significant part in my
30:31
career, but it's not the traditional mentorship you'd
30:33
think. I've actually learnt more from
30:36
doing a reverse mentorship, telling the CEO how to do his
30:39
job. Sorry, I'm just laughing
30:41
because, you know, you'd think that I reached out to people.
30:45
No, I've actually engaging from a perspective of reverse
30:51
mentorship has sort of helped me speak truth to power and also
31:00
understand the guidance that you receive about myself and
31:03
ultimately about them the two way exchanged, if that makes
31:07
sense. It's helped me to understand how
31:09
ACEO might have to think and the level they have to think and
31:14
also understanding what additional things I can do.
31:18
For example, volunteering with within professional boardings
31:23
like APM has helped me to build essential leadership skills.
31:28
And through I've been offered opportunities for visibility and
31:32
artworking, which are crucial for career advancements.
31:38
And also in terms of my advice I would give for women entering
31:43
the project management field, I would say there's no greater.
31:47
It's funny, we're good at buying the next cup of coffee, the
31:53
hills, the latest trends, but we're a little bit slower on
31:58
self investment. So throughout my whole career,
32:02
and I stand on this, no company has ever paid for my
32:05
qualification. I do it for myself to say,
32:08
right, I've done this, Irene did this and I save.
32:12
So I would say continuous self investment through
32:15
certifications and self skills development, but also honing
32:20
into those strong supportive networks which you can foster
32:24
through things like Women in Project Management network.
32:28
And in general. We as women, we're really good
32:32
at planning everything, but we're not, we don't think about
32:37
planning about our career. I was at the Women in Project
32:40
Management conference last year and Belle French said it'd be
32:45
good for people to strategise your career.
32:48
I literally wrote it down. I was like, OK, that's.
32:50
It I remember that, I remember her saying that thinking I'm
32:53
going to do that. You spend all your time working
32:57
out other people's problems and projects.
32:59
But then it seemed quite a radical idea to look at your own
33:03
career as a project to be planned and strategise was a
33:07
revelation. But actually it seems very
33:10
obvious thing to do. What what led you to want to get
33:13
involved in Whip Them specifically?
33:16
So for me, it kind of stems out of passion, genuine passion.
33:20
And this is, I'm sure my whip, them colleagues will, will nod
33:25
their heads and tell you that it's not for me, it's not ACV.
33:28
Look at me, I'm doing this. I've always wanted to see
33:32
people, number one, people like me, people that are identify as
33:38
women or to have the opportunity because I always feel like when
33:44
at at the beginning of my career, I felt like there were
33:48
times I was being asked, can you do the meeting notes?
33:51
I'm like, excuse me, I'm actually the one that's leading
33:55
the meeting. I'm the project manager and
33:58
there are times where, especially in IT, we often face
34:03
things where there's always a like workplace behaviour where
34:07
there's assumptions. Oh, we'll talk about this over
34:10
drinks, right? Or we're going to golf, that
34:13
sort of thing, which is I don't play golf.
34:16
I'd I barely drink. So it's, it's something that
34:20
I've always felt while, whilst I'm going through this, there
34:25
must be other people going through this as well.
34:28
Let me find out how I can get involved in engaging with other
34:33
women and see how they're dealing with these issues and
34:37
also also celebrating some of the things that we're
34:42
progressing within the profession, if that makes sense.
34:45
So that's our found out APM and then I found out there's women
34:50
in project management. I made the most noise on
34:54
LinkedIn so that they could see me like, hi, I'm here.
34:57
But then I went into it thinking I was going to focus on much
35:02
about myself. But like you said earlier, Emma,
35:06
people like to, if you ask people, they want to help, if
35:09
that makes sense. I ended up being someone that's
35:12
more passionate about helping the group and the community grow
35:16
in advance. That's fantastic.
35:18
I mean, thank you. Does anybody else want to talk
35:21
about being a woman in project management?
35:24
Yes. So being an older woman in
35:26
project management, older ish and with a young child and an
35:33
ethnic minority, I'm a black female, I thought it was going
35:38
to be really challenging. But in what way?
35:41
Just trying to prove myself that I am able to juggle everything
35:48
that's going on. So I think that it gives you
35:54
sort of that urge to want to push and to do as much as you
35:57
can. So what I started to do was I
36:02
when I just got into project management, I found a mentor
36:06
within my organisation, so a senior project manager.
36:09
And were they male or female? He was male actually, just
36:13
because of the nature. I worked in construction and the
36:16
senior project managers were predominantly male.
36:20
I must say there was actually a good mix of other project
36:24
managers within the team, but I was sort of limited.
36:27
So what I did was I then thought out volunteering opportunities,
36:33
which is how I ended up in Whipham because I had a natural
36:39
wanting to, to find out what I could do to improve my
36:43
organisation, to improve project management and, and the sector
36:47
for women, for minority groups, for women with children, for
36:53
older women. You know, that crossover between
36:55
all the different sectors of people that might, might
36:58
struggle or, you know, decide that they don't want to go into
37:02
it because it's going to be too. Difficult what?
37:04
What do you think needs still needs to change that would
37:07
encourage? I mean I'm thinking specifically
37:09
of more male dominated industries like construction.
37:12
What do you think still needs to change or would help encourage
37:16
more women to join as project managers or parents?
37:21
So fathers do want to spend time with their kids as well.
37:24
It's the debates moved on, but what do you think could really
37:28
help? For me, I think that it that
37:32
representation. So it is very daunting having
37:36
representation and having people, you know, strong female
37:39
leaders. It was really interesting
37:42
because I, when I went to the conference, I really wanted to
37:45
meet a project manager, a construction project manager
37:49
called Sue. She to me is top of the
37:53
industry. She's amazing.
37:54
And having strong female representatives in those
37:58
industries to say, look, we can progress to these these levels
38:03
of project management is really inspiring.
38:06
So that is really important, but also having the support within
38:11
the organisation. So I fortunately had a manager
38:16
who had children and was really understanding to the needs to be
38:21
flexible. And I have found that working in
38:25
the NHS, that has been a really positive aspect of being able to
38:32
manage, being able to do my job to the best I can, but also
38:36
balance my home life and the understanding that I might need
38:42
to change my schedule a little bit.
38:44
But the work, the job will be done and the flexibility to get
38:48
on and manage my project that way that suits all of my needs.
38:55
I think a good way to wrap up our conversation would be for
38:59
each of you to offer one piece of advice or tip for
39:02
professionals who are looking to move into project management
39:05
from a different sector. So if there's one piece of
39:09
advice you'd like listeners to go away with, what would that
39:12
be? Irene, I'm going to ask you
39:14
first what what would be your one must know piece of advice.
39:20
Invest in yourself, it will pay dividends later.
39:23
And by investing in yourself, what I mean by that is getting
39:28
all the professional qualifications.
39:31
So APM has good chattership, APMQ and other APM
39:36
qualifications that you can take hold of.
39:40
And if you find it difficult find ways to get around here,
39:45
there's ways you can ask your employer.
39:47
Some employers just ask and find ways to progress your career
39:54
through knowledge and networks. That's it.
39:58
Fantastic Rochelle, what would be your one hot tip for project
40:03
professionals? Mine is probably based around
40:08
understanding that you're never too old to to make a career
40:11
change and or to get into project management.
40:13
There's, there isn't an age limit or you know, or
40:16
commitments in your life that that should hold you back or
40:20
stop you from moving into project management or into a
40:24
different sector. So, and then when you're there,
40:26
just like Irene said, just take new opportunities to grow and,
40:31
and progress, but also accept opportunities.
40:34
So there might be, you know, I did a degree, I have a law
40:37
degree, the project management degree apprenticeship was
40:39
offered. It's another degree, but the
40:41
opportunity was there, so I took it.
40:43
So don't think of it as a side, as a step back.
40:47
Sometimes a sidestep is as good to get you to where you need to
40:51
be. Nadia, what would be your one
40:54
piece of advice you'd like listeners to go away with?
40:57
I would say find the mentor, do a very good research on for
41:02
example if you want to move to a project management in
41:06
construction, legal or pharma, do a research on what are the
41:11
top 10 companies in that sector, use LinkedIn, HBOS did find the
41:17
person from there or use volunteering opportunities to
41:22
network and find someone who might be a suitable for mentor.
41:26
And also, once you find the mentor, don't forget to pay back
41:31
later on and be a mentor yourself.
41:34
And Chabuzo, what would be your piece of advice that you'd like
41:38
listeners to go away with? My one most important piece of
41:42
advice is for everyone to embrace the journey of learning
41:46
and adaptation. Moving into project management
41:49
from a different sector is a journey is not a destination, so
41:55
be patient with yourself and recognise that the skills you
41:59
bring from your previous experiences are valuable.
42:02
Stay curious, be adaptable, and seek opportunities for growth.
42:07
What a perfect way to end the podcast.
42:09
I mean, if that's not going to leave you feeling inspired, I
42:11
don't know what will. I just want to thank you all for
42:14
your brilliant contributions and insight into the different paths
42:18
of a career in project management can take.
42:21
I think it's been wonderful. Thank you again so much, I've
42:23
really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you, Emma.
42:25
Thank you. Thanks again to Irene, Rochelle,
42:37
Chibuza, Nadia for joining us and to you for listening to the
42:40
APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
42:43
more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
42:46
podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch
42:48
with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us
42:52
at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing.co.uk.
42:56
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
42:59
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
43:03
visit apm.org.uk.