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Culture and Disability · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome
0:15
Speaker 1: to why we do what we do. I am your
0:18
Speaker 1: culturally sensitive about disabilities, Host Abraham. That took me a
0:24
Speaker 1: while to think about what I wanted to say.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a hard one, and I'm your around
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Speaker 2: the world in eighty minutes, Host Shane.
0:32
Speaker 1: If you're still here after that introduction, then welcome. We
0:35
Speaker 1: are a psychology podcast. You know, we talk about the
0:38
Speaker 1: things that humans and non human animals do, and we
0:42
Speaker 1: are finishing up a suite of episodes about disability and
0:46
Speaker 1: accessibility and inclusion. This is going to be probably the
0:50
Speaker 1: final discussion in this current suite, although I'm sure we're
0:53
Speaker 1: not done with this topic altogether. But yeah, we've we've
0:56
Speaker 1: covered quite a few good topics and I'm happy that
0:59
Speaker 1: we took this on and was able to finish it
1:02
Speaker 1: before the end of the year. So that's what we're
1:05
Speaker 1: up to today.
1:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're really proud about this episode or this
1:08
Speaker 2: series of episodes, and we hope to eve enjoyed them. Today,
1:11
Speaker 2: we're gonna end with like probably I would think the
1:13
Speaker 2: most I don't want to say the most complex, but
1:15
Speaker 2: one of the more complex aspects of this and it's
1:18
Speaker 2: basically how people view disabilities through a cultural lens and
1:22
Speaker 2: what that looks like and what that means. So I'm
1:24
Speaker 2: going to start off by saying this episode was one
1:26
Speaker 2: of the most difficult episodes I've ever had to write,
1:28
Speaker 2: so wow, because I think it's just very complex and
1:31
Speaker 2: very unique. So please give me grace as we go
1:34
Speaker 2: because it is one of the more complex ones.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting too, thinking about the way we open to
1:38
Speaker 1: this series is with an episode about the models of disability,
1:43
Speaker 1: which was like how to think about and frame and
1:46
Speaker 1: talk about and design policy around disability? What even is disability?
1:51
Speaker 1: And now we're ending with that but at the cultural level.
1:54
Speaker 1: So it kind of feels like we really came full circle,
1:58
Speaker 1: not even really that intentionally that we would we would
2:01
Speaker 1: land it that way that we did, but I think
2:03
Speaker 1: it it's sort of poetic in a way. How are
2:06
Speaker 1: we managed to circle the topic in that theme? If
2:10
Speaker 1: you will, yeah, absolutely all right. Well, if you're joining
2:14
Speaker 1: us for the first time, then welcome. We're so glad
2:16
Speaker 1: that you found your way here. And if you're a
2:18
Speaker 1: returning listener, then welcome back. We hope that you continue
2:21
Speaker 1: to find the same kind of joy and learning and
2:24
Speaker 1: experiences that have brought you coming to this podcast for
2:27
Speaker 1: however long you've been doing it. Maybe this is only
2:29
Speaker 1: your second one, who knows, but either way, we appreciate
2:32
Speaker 1: you being here, and I would like to wish you
2:36
Speaker 1: all some happy holidays stuff. So at the beginning of
2:39
Speaker 1: our discussions, we always just do a quick acknowledgment that
2:42
Speaker 1: our podcast releases on a day of the week, and
2:45
Speaker 1: that day often comes with holidays. I don't know if
2:48
Speaker 1: there's any major ones. I don't even know why I'm playing.
2:50
Speaker 1: All right, Happy Christmas Eve everybody. You will have a
2:54
Speaker 1: hopefully merry Christmas tomorrow, but this comes out of Christmas Eve,
2:57
Speaker 1: So Happy Christmas Eve. Yes.
2:59
Speaker 2: Yes, it's also last minute Shopper's Day. I hope that
3:01
Speaker 2: you're done, but if you are a last minute shopper,
3:04
Speaker 2: may your anxiety be lessened.
3:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the this is the day for you.
3:08
Speaker 1: It is a National Eggnog Day yum.
3:11
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, it is in Silkdog too for my plant
3:14
Speaker 2: based folks.
3:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:15
Speaker 2: And it is Christmas Bird count Week.
3:18
Speaker 1: Yes, which I think started last week and then ends
3:20
Speaker 1: this week. Yeah, because unless it goes a little past
3:23
Speaker 1: a week. But we we started We actually had that
3:25
Speaker 1: as last week's one of last week's holidays as well.
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Speaker 2: Yes, we had asked a question how many birds are
3:30
Speaker 2: in the twelve days of Christmas? It's one hundred and
3:32
Speaker 2: eighty four, So if you follow those gifts, it's one
3:34
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty four birds.
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Speaker 1: That's part of the bird count. Yes, for the week
3:37
Speaker 1: is one hundred and eighty four birds in the numbers
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Speaker 1: of Christmas. And then finally it is possadas. I don't
3:43
Speaker 1: know what that means, need do I? Okay? Great? Yeah,
3:47
Speaker 1: and so here we are fair enough. So holidays, Yeah,
3:50
Speaker 1: when there's really big holidays, it tends to be that
3:52
Speaker 1: the list of other holidays that sure a date with
3:55
Speaker 1: that holiday is shorter. So we only had those handful there.
3:59
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're wrapping this discussion up. Well, we're starting
4:02
Speaker 1: this discussion now. We're wrapping up the suite of discussions
4:05
Speaker 1: about disability with this topic about culture and disability. If
4:08
Speaker 1: you would like to support us, you can do that
4:10
Speaker 1: by joining us on Patreon, subscribing, liking this show, leaving
4:14
Speaker 1: us a rating, and review, telling a friend. I'll talk
4:17
Speaker 1: more about the ways that you can do that at
4:19
Speaker 1: the end of this discussion. Is there anything else that
4:22
Speaker 1: I missed? I think we've got through everything, or anything
4:24
Speaker 1: you'd like to add before we jump into our topic.
4:26
Speaker 2: No, I think that's I think we're ready to go.
4:28
Speaker 1: Okay, I know I'm speaking very quickly. I'm going to
4:31
Speaker 1: try and slow down, just to hair for those people
4:34
Speaker 1: who want to listen on times three speed that this
4:36
Speaker 1: still comes across as speech. Sure, And for the people
4:39
Speaker 1: who want to listen on times one speed, they choose
4:42
Speaker 1: it because it is slow, Yes, and so I'll try
4:45
Speaker 1: and honor that for everybody who's here for whatever reason
4:48
Speaker 1: they are here.
4:48
Speaker 2: Yes.
4:49
Speaker 1: So, anyway, I think we're ready to dive into our
4:51
Speaker 1: topic at hand.
4:53
Speaker 2: Yes. So, generally speaking, we define our terms for every episode,
4:58
Speaker 2: and we're going to define our terms for this episode two.
5:01
Speaker 2: But over the past suite of episodes, we've covered quite
5:03
Speaker 2: a bit related to the term disability and what that means.
5:07
Speaker 2: So we're not going to do that here. We're not
5:09
Speaker 2: going to be redundant and redefine those terms just because
5:12
Speaker 2: I feel like that is not quite as necessary for
5:15
Speaker 2: this particular episode.
5:17
Speaker 1: However, for the purposes of this episode, we felt it
5:20
Speaker 1: was important to have a working understanding of what culture
5:24
Speaker 1: means and how we used it for the research to
5:28
Speaker 1: put together the notes for this discussion. And we have
5:31
Speaker 1: talked about culture in previous episodes before, but it is
5:35
Speaker 1: a somewhat complex topic, much more complex than you might
5:38
Speaker 1: think at first. Blush, and certainly one to ensure that
5:42
Speaker 1: we're on the same page. And we just got our
5:45
Speaker 1: stats recently about how many new listeners we had. It
5:48
Speaker 1: was a lot. So I'm going to presume that you
5:51
Speaker 1: have not all heard all the times that we've discussed culture,
5:53
Speaker 1: and even if you have, I would doubt that you
5:55
Speaker 1: would necessarily remember the way we've defined it. So, yeah,
5:59
Speaker 1: that is a lot of prem to say, here's a definition.
6:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the thing that we're gonna use. So culture
6:04
Speaker 2: could be described as a complex tapestry of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviors, arts,
6:09
Speaker 2: and social institutions that describe large groups of people. This
6:14
Speaker 2: could include characteristics outlined in the addressing model, which gives
6:18
Speaker 2: us quite a few cultural identities. Culture is much bigger
6:22
Speaker 2: than where you're from and what you look like, and
6:25
Speaker 2: I think that's going to be really important as we
6:27
Speaker 2: start to unpack this a little bit. So some of
6:30
Speaker 2: the cultural identities from the addressing model include age and generation,
6:34
Speaker 2: developmental disability, disability that's acquired, religion, ethnicity and race, and
6:41
Speaker 2: socioeconomic status.
6:43
Speaker 1: It can also include sexual orientation, indigenous group membership, national
6:49
Speaker 1: origin and language, gender, military, and mental health.
6:55
Speaker 2: Yes, all of these play a vital role on how
6:57
Speaker 2: somebody sees themselves, how they see themselves engaging in the world.
7:01
Speaker 2: And there are lots of intersections of these identities. You
7:05
Speaker 2: may belong to more than one of these groups. More
7:08
Speaker 2: than likely you do, and there's various factors inside of
7:11
Speaker 2: each of those groups that might influence the way that
7:14
Speaker 2: you see the world and how you interact with the world,
7:16
Speaker 2: and how the world sees you as well. So all
7:18
Speaker 2: of those things are just general kind of like overarching
7:21
Speaker 2: umbrellas of identities, and underneath those there are they're multifaceted.
7:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the identity as it relates to culture here,
7:30
Speaker 1: I think is essentially talking about what our expectations are,
7:36
Speaker 1: what is considered appropriate or inappropriate, what are our values,
7:41
Speaker 1: what is our shared language. It's all of these variables
7:45
Speaker 1: that speak to sort of what a group of people
7:50
Speaker 1: do along a set of guidelines that are not often
7:55
Speaker 1: really clearly articulated, like they're just as kind of a
7:58
Speaker 1: way that people go about doing things that is unique
8:03
Speaker 1: to a particular group. Sometimes they're geographically bound. Sometimes they're
8:08
Speaker 1: bound by other things, hobbies, interests, as we've mentioned before, religion,
8:12
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, there can be a lot. Yeah, but whatever
8:15
Speaker 1: the groups you tend to be in, those can dictate
8:18
Speaker 1: to some extent or at least influence things like preferences
8:22
Speaker 1: and again, some things that we've sort of talked about
8:24
Speaker 1: values and like moral direction and that sort of thing. Yeah,
8:28
Speaker 1: that's sort of what is happening here when we talk
8:30
Speaker 1: about culture and identity within a culture.
8:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one day we'll probably do a deeper dive
8:35
Speaker 2: on culture in various identities specifically, maybe we've got our
8:39
Speaker 2: suite for next year and what that looks like. Maybe
8:41
Speaker 2: that's a series of minis that we could unpack. I
8:43
Speaker 2: don't know, But for now, we want our good listeners
8:46
Speaker 2: to know that we are focusing on the identity of disability,
8:49
Speaker 2: both developmental and acquired here and how various cultures around
8:54
Speaker 2: the world might view those disabilities excellence.
8:57
Speaker 1: Okay, so I think we're ready to dive into that
8:59
Speaker 1: part now because all of this has been sort of
9:02
Speaker 1: setting up the background here, which is important. But yeah,
9:05
Speaker 1: we also want to express that while we're going to
9:07
Speaker 1: share some general perspectives throughout this episode, that there are
9:12
Speaker 1: always exceptions to this rule, Like no single perspective is
9:16
Speaker 1: monolithic of a culture, and we shouldn't expect to overgeneralize
9:20
Speaker 1: what we know across every member of a group. You know,
9:23
Speaker 1: if we were to say, like American culture, that can
9:25
Speaker 1: mean a lot of different things to a lot of
9:27
Speaker 1: different people, right, And what culture you find in one
9:30
Speaker 1: part of the country or even one group inside of
9:33
Speaker 1: that part of the country will be different from other
9:35
Speaker 1: parts of the country, And so people are unique and
9:39
Speaker 1: complex and taxonomizing in this way is going to take
9:42
Speaker 1: some liberties with how we talk about things with sort
9:46
Speaker 1: of sweeping generalities in many cases.
9:49
Speaker 2: Right, And so the descriptions that we share in this
9:52
Speaker 2: episode should not be considered monolithic pertaining to the specific
9:55
Speaker 2: cultures that we describe, given that we know culture is
9:59
Speaker 2: made above these first tapestries of perspectives, beliefs, attitudes, history,
10:03
Speaker 2: and more. What we're going to share are common beliefs
10:07
Speaker 2: or systems that might exist inside of those places, but
10:10
Speaker 2: they are not the singular They are not monolithic, and
10:12
Speaker 2: they are not representative of every single person that belongs
10:15
Speaker 2: to those groups.
10:16
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, what we are going to do is we're going
10:19
Speaker 1: to talk about the in general terms, various cultures that exist,
10:23
Speaker 1: and then what that culture, how that culture tends to
10:26
Speaker 1: approach the topics such as disability, accessibility differences, I guess
10:32
Speaker 1: broadly speaking, and again this has both to do with
10:35
Speaker 1: people who are born with some kind of impairment as
10:38
Speaker 1: well as acquired impairments that happen.
10:41
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, all.
10:42
Speaker 1: Right, perfect, Well then, yeah, this is kind of almost
10:45
Speaker 1: alistical style. We're in a list a whole bunch of
10:47
Speaker 1: things and talk about them as we go, although we're
10:49
Speaker 1: not not going to rank these in any particular way.
10:52
Speaker 1: That would be a foolish task. But we will start
10:55
Speaker 1: with some ads. Ooh boooooo. All right, we're back from
11:07
Speaker 1: those ads, and we're back appropriately enough, I think to
11:11
Speaker 1: start with confusion beliefs about disability.
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Speaker 2: Yes, so, in confusion belief systems, children with disabilities may
11:18
Speaker 2: be viewed as a punishment for violations of traditional teachings
11:22
Speaker 2: such as misconduct, dishonesty, things like that, or as a
11:26
Speaker 2: result of ancestral wrongdoing. It is unlikely that some members
11:29
Speaker 2: of the family will seek help or support services because
11:32
Speaker 2: the disability is considered a family concern rather than a
11:35
Speaker 2: community concern.
11:37
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, that is one of the implications that's important
11:42
Speaker 1: to remember when we think about I guess the extent
11:46
Speaker 1: to which there's culpability and a concern is that can
11:50
Speaker 1: result in some like judgment. That also means lack of
11:54
Speaker 1: opportunity for someone who has that ability or that impairment
11:58
Speaker 1: acquired otherwise. Right in China, there's also the belief that
12:02
Speaker 1: autistic children are quote unquote star children zing zeng de
12:07
Speaker 1: hayes oh boy I butchered that. But this is derived
12:12
Speaker 1: from the belief that their communication is distant, if you will,
12:17
Speaker 1: as if they're far away from the family on another planet.
12:20
Speaker 1: This term is actually used to destigmatize autism throughout China.
12:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this term. I had met a behavior analyst
12:29
Speaker 2: who was working out of China, and they had said
12:31
Speaker 2: that this was actually like a term of endearment, not
12:34
Speaker 2: necessarily like something to disparage or to like something that's
12:39
Speaker 2: used derogatorily. It was not anything like that, though, depending
12:43
Speaker 2: on cultural perspective and whatnot, kind of it can't take
12:45
Speaker 2: on like an othering type of perspective, that's true. Yeah,
12:48
Speaker 2: so there is that too. So I think there's like
12:50
Speaker 2: a little bit of like you can see kind of
12:52
Speaker 2: in that description we just described, like maybe a little
12:54
Speaker 2: bit of like what Americans might call ableism inside of that. Again,
12:57
Speaker 2: these are just descriptions of what we're seeing in across
13:00
Speaker 2: these cultures.
13:00
Speaker 1: So interesting.
13:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now in some Southeast Asian cultures specifically looking
13:06
Speaker 2: at like we're kind of talking about maybe Laos, Vietnam, Taiwan,
13:10
Speaker 2: some of those areas. Okay, some folks that belong to
13:13
Speaker 2: these regions may believe that developmental disabilities are caused by
13:16
Speaker 2: mistakes from the parents or ancestors, similar to what the
13:19
Speaker 2: confusion beliefs might be. Disability is not necessarily viewed as
13:22
Speaker 2: a punishment though, like traditional confusion beliefs, but it may
13:26
Speaker 2: have a similar view that, at least that the region
13:28
Speaker 2: might have a similar view that the disability as a
13:31
Speaker 2: result of some mistake. So somebody messed up somewhere. However,
13:35
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily a punishment. It's just kind of like
13:37
Speaker 2: a different pathway.
13:39
Speaker 1: Okay, got it. So moving slightly westward from there, in Pakistan,
13:46
Speaker 1: some communities may believe that the individual who has some
13:50
Speaker 1: kind of disability is possessed by a gin, which is
13:53
Speaker 1: a spirit and very similar to the word genie. I
13:57
Speaker 1: think they have similar etymologies there, and so treatments in
14:02
Speaker 1: this case may then include hiring a shaman or spiritual
14:06
Speaker 1: advisor to support the family and provide some sort of
14:10
Speaker 1: rituals because of that disability. So and again this is
14:14
Speaker 1: not universal for everyone in Pakistan, but this is a
14:17
Speaker 1: way that this could show up in some communities in Pakistan.
14:21
Speaker 2: I think something that I noticed in some of my
14:23
Speaker 2: research was finding that the treatments were not solely a
14:27
Speaker 2: shaman or a spiritual advisor. They were just part of
14:30
Speaker 2: a treatment team, like almost like an interdisciplinary team. They
14:32
Speaker 2: were just a member of the team that would work
14:34
Speaker 2: with the family. Oh yeah, yeah, so there is like
14:36
Speaker 2: an interesting medical model there too. So they were just
14:39
Speaker 2: like an additional advisor to the team, which I thought
14:41
Speaker 2: was really interesting.
14:43
Speaker 1: The analogy to that that I'm imagining. You could tell
14:45
Speaker 1: me if this is wrong, but it'd be sort of
14:47
Speaker 1: like in the United States, you might have like pt
14:50
Speaker 1: ot behavior analyst, and then you also might have like
14:54
Speaker 1: an astrologer who is going to come and consult on
14:57
Speaker 1: their accents.
14:59
Speaker 2: Like a priest, like having a priest like like like
15:02
Speaker 2: like it's it's very similar to that, so like, you know,
15:06
Speaker 2: it's it's one of those things. We're not so different,
15:07
Speaker 2: are we, you know?
15:10
Speaker 1: Sure?
15:10
Speaker 2: Now in India, India boasts a really complex mixture of
15:14
Speaker 2: traditional belief systems and historical examples of inclusion that actually
15:17
Speaker 2: make it very difficult to identify like an overarching perspective
15:21
Speaker 2: on disability. Some members of the community believe that karma
15:24
Speaker 2: is at play or disability is a manifestation of some
15:28
Speaker 2: past sin. The person has had some transgression in their
15:32
Speaker 2: past life and as a result, they were reincarnated as
15:35
Speaker 2: somebody who has a disability and they have to live
15:37
Speaker 2: their life through that lens, which indicates that that's probably
15:40
Speaker 2: not a great outcome for somebody. And that's kind of
15:43
Speaker 2: what maybe the perspective is there, is like if you
15:45
Speaker 2: have bad karma, then you come back with a disability
15:48
Speaker 2: something like that. We're not saying that that's the case,
15:50
Speaker 2: but that's kind of what is implied.
15:52
Speaker 1: There, right, Yeah, that's the belief at hand. Yeah, there's
15:56
Speaker 1: also a perspective of dharmaic duty in India which suggests
16:01
Speaker 1: that folks who are capable of caring for others have
16:05
Speaker 1: a duty to help, so they are sort of obligated
16:09
Speaker 1: to be part of the care that is provided for
16:12
Speaker 1: people who have some disability.
16:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was interesting to read up on because
16:16
Speaker 2: a lot of the discussions were that there were conflicts, right,
16:19
Speaker 2: So it was this belief that somebody with disability did
16:23
Speaker 2: something to earn or deserve that disability while also being
16:27
Speaker 2: a member of the community, and like we had a
16:29
Speaker 2: duty to care for that person and make sure they
16:31
Speaker 2: were taken care of, which is like a complex there.
16:33
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a you know, a little bit
16:35
Speaker 2: of cognitive dissonance there.
16:36
Speaker 1: You know, it is interesting. Yeah, I can from my
16:40
Speaker 1: Western mind, it's a little hard to square the idea
16:46
Speaker 1: that there's some amount of blame in some capacity but
16:51
Speaker 1: also like some amount of compassion.
16:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:53
Speaker 1: I guess they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. They just tend
16:57
Speaker 1: to exist that way. But yeah, interesting, very complex, as
17:00
Speaker 1: you said, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, all right. We also have
17:04
Speaker 1: Sub Saharan Africa and in here in this region of
17:08
Speaker 1: the world. One set of beliefs includes traditional animism, which
17:12
Speaker 1: carries the idea that disabilities similar to the other places
17:16
Speaker 1: that we've described that disabilities are punishments for bad deeds
17:21
Speaker 1: or are the results of witchcraft.
17:23
Speaker 2: Yes. Another set of beliefs that exist in the space too, though,
17:27
Speaker 2: is the medical determinist model, where disability is accepted and
17:31
Speaker 2: part of a medical viewpoint and in line with modern
17:36
Speaker 2: medical causes of disability, so it's not just bad deeds
17:40
Speaker 2: and karmic fallout or witchcraft. There's also this medical model
17:44
Speaker 2: that exists that includes treatment, and that includes support and
17:48
Speaker 2: resources and all those things too, So there is kind
17:50
Speaker 2: of an interesting mixed space.
17:52
Speaker 1: There is this like with the similar to the medical
17:56
Speaker 1: model of disability that we described, where the emphasis is
17:59
Speaker 1: on like changing it so that it's not an impairment
18:03
Speaker 1: or it's not looked at as a disability any longer.
18:06
Speaker 2: It is a little bit like that. And actually, like
18:08
Speaker 2: some of the things that I read about this were
18:11
Speaker 2: that some of those beliefs or those viewpoints would actually
18:14
Speaker 2: change depending on whether the disability was acquired or not,
18:17
Speaker 2: so like the perspective and like kind of like the
18:20
Speaker 2: viewpoint feels a little bit different depending on whether the
18:22
Speaker 2: person had acquired it later in life versus somebody who
18:25
Speaker 2: was born with a disability. So there is a little
18:27
Speaker 2: bit of that kind of I don't want to say
18:29
Speaker 2: discrepancy because that doesn't feel like the right word, but
18:31
Speaker 2: there is that little bit of a difference in how
18:33
Speaker 2: it's approached from that space.
18:35
Speaker 1: Too interesting, Okay, well you've had some experiences with people
18:40
Speaker 1: from Nigeria.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yes, So I have worked with some students from Nigeria
18:45
Speaker 2: and got to hear firsthand anecdotal reports of different viewpoints
18:49
Speaker 2: in different ways that services exist there as an instructor, Like,
18:52
Speaker 2: it was really cool to work with folks from this area.
18:55
Speaker 2: What I learned and kind of what I read it
18:58
Speaker 2: aligned pretty well, Like there were similar beliefs that we discussed.
19:01
Speaker 2: They can be found in Nigeria, just like we've talked
19:03
Speaker 2: about with some beliefs in witchcraft and that being a
19:06
Speaker 2: curse or something along those lines, as well as the
19:08
Speaker 2: medical model. But here in Nigeria too, some of the
19:11
Speaker 2: negative cultural beliefs related to bad deeds. They are present,
19:14
Speaker 2: but they don't seem quite as powerful as like maybe
19:18
Speaker 2: other parts of subsident here in Africa, like maybe in
19:20
Speaker 2: Congo or some of those other areas too. So there's
19:23
Speaker 2: a little bit of a difference though, which is really nice.
19:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Evidently Nigeria has taken steps to codify laws
19:30
Speaker 1: that protect the rights of people with impairments like it
19:34
Speaker 1: disabled individuals, and ensure that there are community systems that
19:39
Speaker 1: include integration and support for people who have a disability
19:43
Speaker 1: acquired or from birth. And so that definitely feels like
19:47
Speaker 1: one of the more progressive ways to think about disability
19:50
Speaker 1: that we've described so far, as far as what you
19:53
Speaker 1: might call progressive again Western sort of perspective here, sure,
19:56
Speaker 1: but it's different from what we've described at least.
20:00
Speaker 2: And what you'll find too, is that inside of all
20:02
Speaker 2: these communities there is a community of care. And we
20:05
Speaker 2: are going to talk a little bit briefly later about
20:07
Speaker 2: individualists versus collectivist cultures and how that might exist as well,
20:11
Speaker 2: and how that does play a role in how caretakers
20:14
Speaker 2: show up and how families care for their loved ones.
20:17
Speaker 2: So what you'll find is that usually, like European and
20:21
Speaker 2: like specifically North American, like the United States specifically tends
20:26
Speaker 2: to have more of an individualistic view. But we'll talk
20:28
Speaker 2: about that later.
20:29
Speaker 1: As we're talking through this, was there any particular order
20:32
Speaker 1: to the how you put these laid out? The sequence
20:35
Speaker 1: of the regions we're discussing.
20:37
Speaker 2: No, there was not. Okay, this was just as it
20:40
Speaker 2: came up and as I was kind of finding information,
20:42
Speaker 2: I was kind of thrown it in there, so like
20:44
Speaker 2: there's no okay, there's no rhyme or reason and how
20:47
Speaker 2: I organize these the countries or the regions or anything
20:50
Speaker 2: like that. So cool, Yeah, thank you for asking that. Yeah,
20:53
Speaker 2: I really didn't plan any of the way that it's organized.
20:55
Speaker 1: I just wasn't sure. I was like, maybe there's maybe,
20:58
Speaker 1: and very easy for things to just exis and just
21:00
Speaker 1: sort of come up with like a place and then
21:02
Speaker 1: talk about it. But sometimes like it almost felt like
21:05
Speaker 1: it was going from like least to most progressives so far,
21:09
Speaker 1: and I wasn't sure if that was like a planned order.
21:13
Speaker 2: No, that was not my intention at all.
21:15
Speaker 1: So okay, cool, all right, Well, no worries. Let's talk
21:19
Speaker 1: about Canada.
21:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, in Canada, there are actually laws and guidelines related
21:23
Speaker 2: to acceptance, integration, inclusion of people with disabilities, very like
21:27
Speaker 2: westernized of westernized version of it, but parts of Canada
21:31
Speaker 2: also have incredibly important and impactful First Nations or Indigenous influences,
21:37
Speaker 2: which we're going to talk about separately, because I think
21:39
Speaker 2: it's important to talk about that as like a like
21:41
Speaker 2: a separate belief system in paradigm, because it really does.
21:44
Speaker 2: It's a very unique space to kind of to explore.
21:48
Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, Yeah, so it feels like Canadian culture is
21:51
Speaker 1: not also does not include the element of sort of
21:55
Speaker 1: wrongdoing or blame as far as disability is concerned.
21:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit. It feels like I didn't see
22:00
Speaker 2: anything that indicated like anything like we've kind of talked
22:02
Speaker 2: about already. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere.
22:05
Speaker 1: You know, in the United States, disability means in some capacity,
22:09
Speaker 1: there's going to be ads. All right, we're back. I
22:19
Speaker 1: was saying that disability means that there will be ads
22:21
Speaker 1: in the United States. Actually, just existing at all means
22:23
Speaker 1: there's going to be ads in the United States. Yeah,
22:26
Speaker 1: so that's that's just a part of life here. It's
22:31
Speaker 1: like you know, clouding with the chance of meatballs. They
22:33
Speaker 1: live in a place where just rains food, and in
22:36
Speaker 1: the United States, it's a place that just rains pooh. Yep,
22:39
Speaker 1: and the pooh is the form of ads.
22:41
Speaker 2: Yep. It's all marketing. Baby. So let's go to the
22:44
Speaker 2: Southern Hemisphere though, and let's talk about Australia for a second.
22:48
Speaker 2: What you'll find in Australia is that a lot of
22:50
Speaker 2: the viewpoints on disabilities closely nearer out of the United States.
22:54
Speaker 2: I had a supervisor that worked in Dowin Up in
22:57
Speaker 2: the northern part of Australia, and they're are state programs.
23:01
Speaker 2: There's protections in place. They a lot of the funding
23:04
Speaker 2: and the resources are subject to political maneuvering and budget
23:08
Speaker 2: cuts that make it difficult for folks with disabilities to
23:10
Speaker 2: access ongoing supports. So what you'll find is that Australia
23:14
Speaker 2: is almost like exactly what you see in the United States.
23:17
Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit less infrastructure there and a little
23:20
Speaker 2: bit more vegemite.
23:27
Speaker 1: That really got me off. Gun, Yes, yes, a little
23:33
Speaker 1: bit more vegemite. That's very important.
23:35
Speaker 2: Okay, less guns, more vegemite. So just so that's yeah, yeah, okay,
23:40
Speaker 2: ver very different place. Let's talk about Latin America, all right.
23:44
Speaker 2: So in Latin America, many infrastructures aren't set up for
23:48
Speaker 2: certain disabilities, meaning there has not necessarily been laws or
23:52
Speaker 2: a push to promote accessibility, so there's not necessary you
23:55
Speaker 2: won't always find accessible walkways there might be uneven payment,
23:59
Speaker 2: there might be a lack of signage. However, in some
24:02
Speaker 2: countries in Latin America, more progressive legal and institutional changes
24:06
Speaker 2: are occurring in an attempt to improve accessibility for the
24:10
Speaker 2: millions of people for whom that is a relevant consideration.
24:14
Speaker 1: And as we've talked about in other episodes, is that
24:18
Speaker 1: improving accessibility in general improves the quality of those contexts
24:23
Speaker 1: for everyone. So it's like a it is the right
24:27
Speaker 1: thing to do in our opinion, to make things accessible,
24:32
Speaker 1: and it is also beneficial for everyone, even beyond those
24:36
Speaker 1: for whom the accessibility adjustment was directly made right.
24:41
Speaker 2: So as an example, let's talk about Brazil. Brazil actually
24:44
Speaker 2: includes a complex network of legal rights and institutional support
24:47
Speaker 2: for the care folks disabilities. However, and this is I
24:50
Speaker 2: think true for any nation has the support networks in place. Stigma, institutionalization, ableism,
24:57
Speaker 2: These also persist. Complex beliefs exist where disability is the
25:01
Speaker 2: cause of some supernatural elements. It is karmic. It is
25:04
Speaker 2: all those things we see. I mean, we see very
25:07
Speaker 2: similar things in the United States as far as all
25:11
Speaker 2: the things I just mentioned, stimization, institutionalization, residential placement, all
25:15
Speaker 2: that stuff.
25:16
Speaker 1: In Brazil, it appears that many women will take on
25:19
Speaker 1: caregiving roles and are seen as the primary caretakers for
25:23
Speaker 1: individuals with disabilities. This type of caregiving diet is actually
25:28
Speaker 1: sort of considered the default. Like it's not that it
25:31
Speaker 1: will be every single situation, like sometimes that just won't
25:34
Speaker 1: be practical, but the default is that, and then you
25:38
Speaker 1: might arrange something else if that is not available.
25:41
Speaker 2: Right right, right, So it's just kind of like the
25:43
Speaker 2: standard of care and kind of like a belief system
25:48
Speaker 2: that is more patriarchal in that women are the caretakers
25:51
Speaker 2: and men are the providers and stuff like that. So
25:54
Speaker 2: you'll but again you see that that happens in the
25:56
Speaker 2: United States too, So that's I don't think that's unique
25:59
Speaker 2: to Brazil, but it is something that is pretty commonly
26:02
Speaker 2: mentioned in some of the research there.
26:04
Speaker 1: Got it. Yeah, makes sense.
26:06
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about indigenous belief systems,
26:08
Speaker 2: and specifically we are going to talk a little bit
26:10
Speaker 2: about North America and what this looks like, just because
26:13
Speaker 2: this is a lot of where that research comes from.
26:15
Speaker 2: And so generally speaking, indigenous perspectives at least in North
26:19
Speaker 2: America allow for interpretation because many Indigenous systems and beliefs
26:24
Speaker 2: are told through oral traditions, so there's not a lot
26:27
Speaker 2: of written language, written stories. That's kind of happened in
26:31
Speaker 2: the last century a little bit more where you start
26:33
Speaker 2: to see that kind of emerge a little bit as
26:35
Speaker 2: people are documenting, But for the most part, a lot
26:38
Speaker 2: of the beliefs and systems are oral traditions, and you
26:40
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of like writing about this among
26:43
Speaker 2: indigenous populations, which is.
26:46
Speaker 1: Its own sort of amazing human achievement that knowledge could
26:51
Speaker 1: be passed on in that way. Yeah, it's really kind
26:55
Speaker 1: of beautiful, and this interpretation is one of the coolest
26:59
Speaker 1: in our opinion, because there is this consistent theme that
27:03
Speaker 1: you'll see across indigenous communities that people with disabilities are
27:08
Speaker 1: actually considered uniquely gifted and have unique spiritual connections. There's
27:13
Speaker 1: just this like seemingly deep level of compassion for people
27:18
Speaker 1: with disabilities as being very important, valuable people. And it's
27:24
Speaker 1: one of the only times in like surveying cultures around
27:28
Speaker 1: the world where that's so prevalently observed and that there
27:32
Speaker 1: is so much more care thought about people with disabilities
27:36
Speaker 1: and impairments them being seen as a burden or even
27:40
Speaker 1: in some of the cases as we've discussed, like deserving
27:43
Speaker 1: of some kind of impairment because of crimes they may
27:47
Speaker 1: have committed in this or a past life right.
27:50
Speaker 2: So you'll find this is true across not just disability,
27:53
Speaker 2: but other types of identity as well. Gender identity is
27:56
Speaker 2: one that shows up a lot. You'll hear the term
27:58
Speaker 2: two spirit and that's just one all example of what
28:01
Speaker 2: you might find. And a lot of times, like people
28:03
Speaker 2: with disabilities, people with gender nonconforming identities, they take leadership
28:09
Speaker 2: roles or like spiritual roles inside the communities. So they
28:13
Speaker 2: are they are leaders of the community. They're not they're
28:16
Speaker 2: not shunned, they're not separated, they're taken care of. And
28:19
Speaker 2: that a lot of that comes down to some values
28:21
Speaker 2: with inside the indigenous communities. So many Indigenous traditions value
28:25
Speaker 2: collective care, diverse community roles, and balance in their communities
28:29
Speaker 2: and in their lands. A lot of a lot of
28:31
Speaker 2: Indigenous communities are matriarchal, a lot of the elderly are
28:34
Speaker 2: taken care of in different ways as part of like
28:37
Speaker 2: collectivest systems. And further, many tribes and communities actually lack
28:41
Speaker 2: a word for disability or differently abled because they hold
28:44
Speaker 2: members of the community and their unique contributions in such
28:47
Speaker 2: high regard that they don't really talk about those as
28:51
Speaker 2: differences and they didn't need a word for it.
28:53
Speaker 1: Wow, what an interesting difference it would make to have
28:58
Speaker 1: a language where you don't have a word for having
29:02
Speaker 1: someone be separated from the rest of the group, like
29:06
Speaker 1: there's there's there's no vernacular for other people. It just
29:09
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. I'm sure that there is a way to
29:12
Speaker 1: do it inside of these languages, but in this particular way,
29:16
Speaker 1: that characteristic feature is not treated as being like, somehow
29:20
Speaker 1: different from the rest of everyone else.
29:23
Speaker 2: Right.
29:23
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Once again, I feel like we find that indigenous
29:27
Speaker 1: people should just rule the world.
29:30
Speaker 2: Seriously, they have all the power. They had stuff figured out,
29:33
Speaker 2: you know, they really did.
29:35
Speaker 1: Oh sad, sad, so sad how they've been treated. But okay,
29:41
Speaker 1: moving on talking about Hawaii. This actually has come up
29:44
Speaker 1: before and other discussions we've talked about a little bit
29:48
Speaker 1: some Hawaiian traditions and cultures. Just a really unique place.
29:52
Speaker 1: But Hawaiian incorporates a unique blend of modern medicine and
29:56
Speaker 1: mystical views. At EPA and modern cultural view use adopt
30:01
Speaker 1: the values of Aloha, which focus on love and compassion,
30:06
Speaker 1: as well as Ohanna, which is a focus on sort
30:09
Speaker 1: of familial unity, strength and inclusion. And Ohanna can feel
30:14
Speaker 1: like it's very much described as family, but it's I
30:16
Speaker 1: feel like the way that I've heard it used is
30:18
Speaker 1: a little bit closer maybe to tribe, sort of like
30:21
Speaker 1: these are my people, whether or not we're related by blood,
30:24
Speaker 1: we're all sort of people that belong together, yeah, because
30:27
Speaker 1: we support each other and we live in a sort
30:30
Speaker 1: of this collective group. Yeah, And so that's anyway, really
30:34
Speaker 1: I think very beautiful sentiment.
30:36
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Just to kind of clarify the term EPA, that's
30:40
Speaker 2: a term that's used to describe someone who may be
30:42
Speaker 2: experiencing disability but has roots in enigmatic spiritual practices. So
30:46
Speaker 2: it's very like very mystical centered and has like there's
30:50
Speaker 2: like some really great storytelling around this. It's not my
30:53
Speaker 2: story to tell, so I'm certainly not going to do
30:55
Speaker 2: that right now, but if you ever get a chance
30:57
Speaker 2: to talk to somebody who is Hawaiian and has some
31:01
Speaker 2: strong indigenous traditions and wants to share some of those
31:05
Speaker 2: oral stories, it is worth hearing the story about, and
31:08
Speaker 2: like what that means I had the pleasure of sitting
31:10
Speaker 2: at the Hawaiian ABA conference and listening to a local
31:13
Speaker 2: professor who told the story, and it was just just
31:17
Speaker 2: absolutely beautiful. So it's if you ever get a chance
31:20
Speaker 2: to hear the story, it's it's incredible.
31:22
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, and we talked a little bit about
31:24
Speaker 1: how like children who maybe were born with certain physical
31:28
Speaker 1: differences were often held as like divine beings, almost like
31:34
Speaker 1: they are the closest to God, which again very different
31:37
Speaker 1: than how a lot of other cultures that might have
31:39
Speaker 1: approached that. Yeah, particularly as those we've described. Yeah, all right,
31:43
Speaker 1: well we have one continence that we have not yet visited,
31:47
Speaker 1: which is Antarctica. And yes we have something to say
31:51
Speaker 1: about Antarctica.
31:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, surprise. So Antarctica is its own unique place, but
31:58
Speaker 2: there is a thriving tourism in recent search industry that
32:01
Speaker 2: exists in Antarctica, and they're actually moving into pretty inclusive spaces.
32:05
Speaker 2: So Corey Lee, who runs website I believe called curb
32:08
Speaker 2: Free with Corey Lee. He identifies as a wheelchair user,
32:12
Speaker 2: and he provided an accounting of his trip to Antarctica
32:15
Speaker 2: on a Holland American cruise where the ship provided accessibility
32:19
Speaker 2: for the most part most of the experiences, aside from
32:21
Speaker 2: the pools. It was an older ship, so it didn't
32:23
Speaker 2: have pool lifts to get him into the hot tubs
32:25
Speaker 2: and into the pools and stuff like that. But otherwise
32:27
Speaker 2: he was able to access the entire ship, the amenities.
32:31
Speaker 2: He was able to see Antarctica, he was able to
32:33
Speaker 2: actually go into the ports and stuff like that. He
32:36
Speaker 2: was able to do some really cool things. So like
32:38
Speaker 2: even like the movement towards Antarctica, and this centered out
32:42
Speaker 2: of the cruises where I believe the initial port was
32:45
Speaker 2: out of Chile, So there's also like they built accessibility
32:49
Speaker 2: stuff inside of that space to be able to get
32:51
Speaker 2: him to go to Antarctica. So there is like some
32:54
Speaker 2: accessibility movements and inclusion movements inside of that too, which
32:56
Speaker 2: I thought was really fascinating because that was his dream.
32:59
Speaker 2: His dream was to go to Antarctica, and he was
33:00
Speaker 2: able to make that work in a wheelchair because of
33:02
Speaker 2: the accessibility and the universal stuff that we've been talking about.
33:05
Speaker 1: Cool, very good. Yeah, all right, well, I think that
33:08
Speaker 1: sort of is the survey of the places around the
33:12
Speaker 1: world where we're talking about the different practices that you
33:16
Speaker 1: might see some values, approaches, considerations, and all of that,
33:22
Speaker 1: But there is more to say about this, thinking about
33:25
Speaker 1: it sort of from a zoomed out, more I guess
33:28
Speaker 1: scientific view of the differences in cultural practices and how
33:33
Speaker 1: they might be influenced by things like advertising. Okay, we're back.
33:44
Speaker 1: We're actually moving into discussion here with respect to different
33:48
Speaker 1: cultural views and thinking about this from just not even
33:51
Speaker 1: a very specific perspective. But how do we think about
33:55
Speaker 1: cultural views through a sort of behavioral science perspective and
34:00
Speaker 1: what does it all mean?
34:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, the science buying culture is complex. It requires
34:05
Speaker 2: careful study, It requires open mindedness to interpret. And what
34:09
Speaker 2: we might find, as you know, as an observer to
34:11
Speaker 2: be strange or odd in a culture that we don't
34:14
Speaker 2: have any experience with that belief system, that viewpoint that
34:19
Speaker 2: it may be functional, may be practical, It may be
34:21
Speaker 2: foundational to the needs of the community, and there may
34:24
Speaker 2: be practical applications of whatever is being implemented in those spaces,
34:29
Speaker 2: like the example of like pulling in a shaman. Like
34:31
Speaker 2: you might not think of that as something that's practical
34:33
Speaker 2: in the United States because we don't usually employ spiritual
34:36
Speaker 2: advisors or shaman in those spaces, in those medical spaces. However,
34:41
Speaker 2: we do enlist spiritual advisors in different areas, and that
34:44
Speaker 2: is something that we see some parallels to and I
34:46
Speaker 2: think it's important to kind of as we examine culture
34:49
Speaker 2: to understand that there are those parallels that do.
34:51
Speaker 1: Exist, and certainly thinking about like there are things that
34:55
Speaker 1: we do in sort of American United States centric culture
34:59
Speaker 1: that other cultures would look at and be like, wow,
35:01
Speaker 1: that's very strange. I would have not thought to do
35:04
Speaker 1: things quite that way.
35:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, like almost like privatized healthcare or something.
35:08
Speaker 1: Like that, privatized prisons, stuff of that nature, Like like
35:13
Speaker 1: people might die because they can't afford to get healthcare
35:16
Speaker 1: and people are just okay with that, and like that's
35:18
Speaker 1: like a thing, right, So yeah, it's strange. Anyway. There's
35:21
Speaker 1: a book called How to Rethink Human Behavior and this
35:24
Speaker 1: uses a great example of a mash pit to highlight
35:27
Speaker 1: these examples and from the outside, so if people aren't familiar.
35:32
Speaker 1: Amash pit is a thing that happens at usually a
35:35
Speaker 1: live musical performance. Often the music is on the variety
35:39
Speaker 1: of what you might call metal or heavy music. It's
35:43
Speaker 1: raucous music, yes, raucous music, and amoche is like an
35:50
Speaker 1: area of the audience where there is a lot of
35:53
Speaker 1: physical interactions, let's put it that way, and usually in
35:56
Speaker 1: like sort of a format of dancing kind of.
36:00
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, it used
36:02
Speaker 2: to be called dancing. You would hear that, Like some
36:04
Speaker 2: punks and hardcore kids would call it dancing before.
36:06
Speaker 1: And they still do. Yeah. And inside of a mashpit,
36:08
Speaker 1: one thing you might see is a lot of legs
36:10
Speaker 1: swinging and arms swinging, and a lot of pushing each
36:14
Speaker 1: other and possibly even striking each other in some capacity,
36:18
Speaker 1: or creating a little bubble around yourself where you're swinging
36:21
Speaker 1: your a limb so violently that you may be struck
36:24
Speaker 1: if you entered that person's bubble, either intentionally or unintentionally.
36:28
Speaker 1: So anyway, looking at that, a mosh pit may appear
36:31
Speaker 1: very scary or violent. Now I'm thinking we need to
36:34
Speaker 1: do an episode on moshpits. Yeah, when you're immersed in
36:40
Speaker 1: the mash pit, there are actually some social rules and
36:43
Speaker 1: guidelines that people do follow. They may not be like
36:47
Speaker 1: explicitly stayed or written down, but they do exist. So
36:50
Speaker 1: in a mash pit there is like a lot of
36:51
Speaker 1: physical interaction, but people work together, and they do actually
36:55
Speaker 1: take care of each other, and they usually try and
36:57
Speaker 1: sure everyone is generally safe to despite what the appearance
37:01
Speaker 1: what it may look like to outside observers. If someone falls,
37:05
Speaker 1: there's generally a rule that you pick them up. If
37:08
Speaker 1: someone gets hurt, there's generally a rule that you, like
37:10
Speaker 1: just move them out of the way, help guide them
37:13
Speaker 1: toward the edge of the circle. Yeah, it looks very
37:16
Speaker 1: scary because there's a lot of like aggressive movements that
37:19
Speaker 1: are happening, but people actually do kind of take care
37:21
Speaker 1: of each other in a mosh pit space.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that as we're because we're talking
37:27
Speaker 2: about this in the constant of culture, culture has a
37:29
Speaker 2: similar way of doing this. From the outside, we may
37:32
Speaker 2: find have some views that don't mesh well with the
37:34
Speaker 2: observed cultural views or the cultural practices. What we may
37:37
Speaker 2: find is that there are more complex reasons for those
37:40
Speaker 2: beliefs to persist. Education systems are failing, community support perspectives
37:44
Speaker 2: are either missing or lost. We may find that disability
37:48
Speaker 2: isn't the core concern, but as a result of larger
37:51
Speaker 2: systemic issues, disability ends up being a target or a
37:54
Speaker 2: scapegoat rather than something to be celebrated or revered, so
37:59
Speaker 2: culture can be really in that regard.
38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the interaction between disability and systems is a
38:05
Speaker 1: very large, a complex conversation that would take a lot
38:09
Speaker 1: of experts in potentially many years to unpack and requires,
38:13
Speaker 1: as we've mentioned before, careful study and understanding of interlocking systems,
38:18
Speaker 1: which means like the elements of a system that affect
38:21
Speaker 1: variables and elements of other systems, and it's like a
38:24
Speaker 1: feedback loop on each other. And the all two variable
38:28
Speaker 1: element that is included in all of this, which is
38:31
Speaker 1: humans and the history that they bring to these contexts,
38:34
Speaker 1: and therefore the sort of different approaches that might happen
38:37
Speaker 1: and somewhat unpredictably from one person to the next. So
38:41
Speaker 1: it's truly impossible to really identify a single element or
38:45
Speaker 1: even like just ten elements related to how cultural views
38:49
Speaker 1: of disability exist and persist without understanding the entire system
38:53
Speaker 1: and which it occurs. And that's a big task. Like
38:56
Speaker 1: we're not going to unpack that in a single discussion.
38:58
Speaker 1: We might not unpack that. That was all we did
39:00
Speaker 1: as a podcast for all the years that we do it. Yeah,
39:03
Speaker 1: because there's so much and it's evolving. It changes really quickly,
39:08
Speaker 1: and it's the variables that are included in it are
39:12
Speaker 1: vast and we don't even know necessarily what they all
39:15
Speaker 1: are still.
39:16
Speaker 2: Right, Like, one topic that we didn't cover in this
39:18
Speaker 2: episode the suite of episodes was the difference in perspectives
39:21
Speaker 2: among individualistic versus collectivist cultures and how those might play
39:25
Speaker 2: a role. So, for those of you who are unaware,
39:27
Speaker 2: an individualistic culture maybe focuses on individual achievement versus the
39:31
Speaker 2: benefit of the group caring maybe quote unquote outsourced to
39:34
Speaker 2: other services. Like an example of this is how the
39:37
Speaker 2: nursing home system exists in the United States. This is
39:39
Speaker 2: something that may be looked upon as like kind of
39:41
Speaker 2: strange in more collectivist cultures, like why would you send
39:44
Speaker 2: a loved one to be cared for by somebody else
39:46
Speaker 2: when you could care for them and have them in
39:47
Speaker 2: your home. And that's actually like nursing homes are kind
39:50
Speaker 2: of a uniquely individualistic culture thing that doesn't happen in
39:54
Speaker 2: other places, not in the same way at least, whereas
39:56
Speaker 2: collectivist cultures, they emphasize the needs and the goals of
39:59
Speaker 2: the group over individuals. And when it comes to careers,
40:02
Speaker 2: families will often focus on taking the care of their
40:04
Speaker 2: own family members. They'll take that on rather than enlisting
40:07
Speaker 2: members of the outgroup or members of society. Like it's
40:10
Speaker 2: kind of an internal family thing. We take care of
40:12
Speaker 2: our people, We take care of our own, and that
40:15
Speaker 2: exists a little bit differently, So you'll find that, like
40:17
Speaker 2: even in those spaces where disability is looked at as
40:20
Speaker 2: like a punishment or a curse, like, many of those
40:23
Speaker 2: cultures are still taking care of their loved ones in
40:25
Speaker 2: a way that isn't happening in individualist cultures.
40:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's easy to hear this and maybe want to
40:32
Speaker 1: impart some value in terms of which one is the
40:35
Speaker 1: correct way to go. And I think that there are
40:40
Speaker 1: some pros and cons of any of those systems that
40:44
Speaker 1: are probably worth unpacking. But I do think generally speaking,
40:47
Speaker 1: most people are going to hear the values that are
40:50
Speaker 1: maybe implicit in this, and hear this idea that like family,
40:55
Speaker 1: caring for family is the right way to go, And
40:57
Speaker 1: I'm like, I agree with that to a point, but
41:00
Speaker 1: I also want to acknowledge that, like, there are some
41:03
Speaker 1: other advantages two different systems. I mean that from a
41:06
Speaker 1: scientific perspective, it's hard to necessarily say one is definitely
41:11
Speaker 1: the right move. There might be conditions and factors and
41:15
Speaker 1: considerations to look at, like maybe in some situations one
41:19
Speaker 1: is better than the other, depending on what you're trying
41:22
Speaker 1: to achieve and what the context is and who's available
41:25
Speaker 1: to do what, et cetera. Anyway, I just I sort
41:27
Speaker 1: of hear that, and I'm like, yeah, I personally would
41:30
Speaker 1: would subscribe to the idea that family takes care of family,
41:35
Speaker 1: and that like you, rather than putting someone who's elderly
41:38
Speaker 1: in in need of support into a home, like you
41:40
Speaker 1: create space for them in your place, and you take
41:43
Speaker 1: care of them as needed, and then that will be
41:45
Speaker 1: the same thing that's sufforded to you in the future.
41:47
Speaker 1: But again, I could I could imagine situations where that's
41:50
Speaker 1: handled differently.
41:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I don't think there's a right or wrong way.
41:54
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, to me, I kind of
41:55
Speaker 2: always go back to, like the measure of a society
41:59
Speaker 2: is like how well it takes care of its people, right,
42:02
Speaker 2: Like I always kind of value that, and I think
42:04
Speaker 2: that that's like, I think you could do that in
42:06
Speaker 2: an individualist versus a collectivist culture. But I think you
42:09
Speaker 2: tend to see that value show up more in a
42:12
Speaker 2: collectivist culture. And again, I think you may you nailed it,
42:15
Speaker 2: Like I don't think either one is wrong per se,
42:17
Speaker 2: but I do think that there is like there is
42:19
Speaker 2: a discussion to be had inside of that too. Yeah,
42:22
Speaker 2: And you know, the discussion about individualistic and collectivest cultures
42:25
Speaker 2: plays a huge role in how disability is viewed across cultures.
42:28
Speaker 2: Like that does make a huge difference in how people
42:32
Speaker 2: perceive disability, how they care for disability, how they set
42:35
Speaker 2: up systems, how they set up laws, how they codify rights,
42:38
Speaker 2: how they do all those things. But again, this is
42:41
Speaker 2: just one factor among thousands of factors that shape the
42:44
Speaker 2: perspectives of disability across cultures, which is why we can't
42:47
Speaker 2: overgeneralize what we've learned today and what we've researched. You
42:50
Speaker 2: can't apply that one single sound bite to an entire
42:54
Speaker 2: culture because there are infinite variables that influence how people
42:58
Speaker 2: perceive disability in those space.
43:00
Speaker 1: For sure, Like any one culture that we described could
43:03
Speaker 1: have someone in it who said, like that is absolutely
43:05
Speaker 1: not correct. That's not how I think about it, that's
43:08
Speaker 1: not how the people I'm around think about it. And
43:10
Speaker 1: that's going to be the case because, as we said
43:13
Speaker 1: when we just when we started this, like we sort
43:15
Speaker 1: of approach them as like here are some sweeping generalities
43:18
Speaker 1: about these, but it's going to be how that actually
43:21
Speaker 1: exists for each individual will be different within that culture.
43:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:26
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm happy that we did this. It's worth sharing
43:29
Speaker 1: and thinking about how how other people around the world
43:32
Speaker 1: have viewed and thought about various topics. I mean you could,
43:35
Speaker 1: like you could say food, like people approach food in
43:38
Speaker 1: different parts of the world. We did an episode years
43:40
Speaker 1: ago about coffee traditions around the world, which was really
43:44
Speaker 1: fun and like it was really cool to learn about that.
43:46
Speaker 1: And you think about, as you've mentioned, the variables that
43:49
Speaker 1: exist inside of a culture, the money that that country uses,
43:52
Speaker 1: the kind of policies that the government of that country
43:54
Speaker 1: puts into place, the education system that's available in those countries,
43:58
Speaker 1: the technology that's available to the people than those countries,
44:01
Speaker 1: and like each one of those has like a thousand
44:04
Speaker 1: things that you could look at that are variables that
44:06
Speaker 1: affect how that culture then goes about approaching things like disability.
44:11
Speaker 1: There's so much that goes into understanding human behavior at
44:13
Speaker 1: this scale that like all we can really do is
44:16
Speaker 1: say like, this is what tends to happen. But I
44:19
Speaker 1: love the idea also of just like this is a
44:21
Speaker 1: little bit more zoomed in than just saying like it's
44:25
Speaker 1: different across different cultures, Like we actually look took some
44:28
Speaker 1: specific examples and looked at some specific locations to say, like,
44:32
Speaker 1: here's how this is sometimes talked about and discussed here,
44:36
Speaker 1: and then again understanding the variables that well, one thing
44:41
Speaker 1: is like these things have likely changed considerably over time,
44:44
Speaker 1: like and will continue to change, like some of the
44:46
Speaker 1: some of the cultures that we described, like fifty years
44:49
Speaker 1: from now might be very different than how we describe
44:51
Speaker 1: them from today's perspective. How they were fifty years ago
44:54
Speaker 1: might be very different from how we talked about them
44:57
Speaker 1: from the perspective of what we have today. So it's
45:00
Speaker 1: a dynamic, changing thing that's affected by a lot of
45:04
Speaker 1: variables and views. But I guess the one thing I'd
45:07
Speaker 1: really like to leave on, and this has probably been
45:12
Speaker 1: very clearly emblematic throughout this entire suite, if not all
45:14
Speaker 1: of the discussions we've ever had, is that our value
45:18
Speaker 1: here is that people with disabilities are people. They're human beings.
45:23
Speaker 1: And we think about them, and we try and really
45:27
Speaker 1: shift and orient our perspective around like treating them as
45:31
Speaker 1: human beings who should be afforded and like should meaning that,
45:36
Speaker 1: like we should take all efforts to create systems which
45:41
Speaker 1: they're afforded the same rights and opportunities as anyone else.
45:45
Speaker 1: It's wild that we're still in a situation where we're
45:47
Speaker 1: we're facing these these ideas that like, there are some
45:51
Speaker 1: people who just don't deserve a fair life and that's
45:55
Speaker 1: just how it goes. And it's like, and in the
45:57
Speaker 1: United States there's a greater push than ever, Yeah, for
46:00
Speaker 1: that to be the case, is that, like we just
46:02
Speaker 1: would they people just embrace this idea that inequality is
46:06
Speaker 1: the right way to go, And that's just wild to me.
46:08
Speaker 1: I just I have a hard time fathoming this from
46:11
Speaker 1: even a logistical perspective.
46:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The thing I want to end with
46:22
Speaker 2: is that I just want to kind of point out that, like, personally,
46:25
Speaker 2: this was a very difficult episode to write, and it
46:27
Speaker 2: was because of the complexity of this. Humans are incredibly complex.
46:32
Speaker 2: Culture includes a wide variety of beliefs coming together to
46:35
Speaker 2: create unique, overarching perspectives and systems that require deep analyzes.
46:42
Speaker 2: I think if we can take time to go back
46:44
Speaker 2: and look at our own perspectives on disability and the
46:46
Speaker 2: cultural factors that shape them, I think that we would
46:48
Speaker 2: find a very similar complex tapestry of influences that led
46:52
Speaker 2: us to our our own belief systems and our current
46:54
Speaker 2: belief status. Like, I think that we can't ignore that.
46:57
Speaker 2: And my biggest hope coming out of this episode and
47:00
Speaker 2: really out of the suite is really taking time to
47:03
Speaker 2: take a step back and go there are other ways
47:05
Speaker 2: to look at this. There are different ways to look
47:08
Speaker 2: at this. People do see these differently, and we can
47:10
Speaker 2: take a second to kind of step back and realize that,
47:13
Speaker 2: like all of these factors have influenced the way that
47:16
Speaker 2: we view this. So I hope that this has made
47:17
Speaker 2: you more curious, at the very least about how disability
47:21
Speaker 2: is viewed and how we can go about improving the
47:24
Speaker 2: lives of the people that deserve to have an opportunity
47:26
Speaker 2: to have a quality of life that often don't get
47:29
Speaker 2: it because people view disability as lesser, you know, So
47:32
Speaker 2: hopefully that's really like I think, and I think you
47:34
Speaker 2: said it better than I did, which is like, at
47:36
Speaker 2: the end of the day. People disabilities are humans, and
47:39
Speaker 2: they deserve every right and every respect and every opportunity
47:43
Speaker 2: that every other human gets.
47:44
Speaker 1: Exactly all right, Well, I think this is that wraps
47:48
Speaker 1: us up for this suite of episodes on disability and
47:52
Speaker 1: accessibility and inclusion. Yeah. I hope that you enjoyed this journey.
47:56
Speaker 1: Thank you for taking this journey with us. If you
47:59
Speaker 1: like to tell us thoughts on culture and disability, you
48:02
Speaker 1: can maybe share some other cultures we didn't get to,
48:04
Speaker 1: or you can provide some corrective feedback if there was
48:07
Speaker 1: something we missed or set a little bit off. We're
48:10
Speaker 1: happy to get those things. Or you refer to any
48:13
Speaker 1: of our past episodes on accessibility or any of our
48:16
Speaker 1: episodes on anything. We're happy to hear from you. Yes,
48:19
Speaker 1: you can email us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast
48:23
Speaker 1: dot com, or you can reach us on the social
48:25
Speaker 1: media platforms, and we look forward to hearing from you
48:27
Speaker 1: all there. We have some great people we correspond with
48:30
Speaker 1: and we enjoy the emails that we get, so feel
48:32
Speaker 1: free to send them.
48:33
Speaker 2: On yes, please do.
48:34
Speaker 1: All right, if you are joining us for the first
48:36
Speaker 1: time and you made it all the way here and
48:38
Speaker 1: you're like finally they're wrapping this up. But wait, why
48:41
Speaker 1: is there so much time left on this episode? Well,
48:43
Speaker 1: it is because at the end of our discussions we
48:45
Speaker 1: like to recommend some things, usually just random things, something
48:49
Speaker 1: that brought us joy in the last week or month
48:52
Speaker 1: or something, and then we say, this is a thing
48:54
Speaker 1: we like, maybe you'll like it to check it out.
48:57
Speaker 1: But before we do that, we've got to get through
48:58
Speaker 1: the credits. So I would like to say, if you
49:01
Speaker 1: would like to support us, and you aren't already supporting us,
49:03
Speaker 1: one way you can do that is by joining us
49:05
Speaker 1: on Patreon. You get some early content, ad free episodes,
49:08
Speaker 1: some bonus stuff, all of that, and it really helps
49:10
Speaker 1: us be a show. And on these full length discussions,
49:14
Speaker 1: I will read the list of names of people who
49:16
Speaker 1: have taken the leap and jumped in to help us,
49:18
Speaker 1: which is just extremely generous and we really appreciate it.
49:21
Speaker 1: So thank you so much to Mike, m Megan, Mike t, Justin,
49:25
Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie. Thank you
49:29
Speaker 1: all for being part of our ohana. You're our heroes.
49:33
Speaker 1: If you join us over there, then you too will
49:35
Speaker 1: have your name right on that list of people, and
49:37
Speaker 1: we will appreciate you just as much. Otherwise, you can
49:41
Speaker 1: like and subscribe, leave a rating, and then if you
49:43
Speaker 1: are feeling ambitious, you can also leave and a review.
49:46
Speaker 1: Telling people by word of mouth is a great way
49:48
Speaker 1: to spread podcasts and it does help us a lot.
49:51
Speaker 1: All of that stuff helps us show up more frequently
49:53
Speaker 1: in sort of the podcast recommendations for people, which helps
49:57
Speaker 1: us keep being a show and reach listeners and all
49:59
Speaker 1: of that.
50:00
Speaker 2: Hmm.
50:00
Speaker 1: We're kind of a small podcast and we're okay with that.
50:03
Speaker 1: We're proud of the things that we create, and I
50:05
Speaker 1: think that there are some people who would get something
50:08
Speaker 1: out of the things that we create who don't know
50:10
Speaker 1: that we exist. So you can help them out by
50:12
Speaker 1: telling them about us or leaving us a review. As
50:15
Speaker 1: I said, I have a team of people who help
50:17
Speaker 1: make this podcast with me and without whom it would
50:20
Speaker 1: be nearly impossible for me to do this. No, it
50:22
Speaker 1: would be impossible. So writing and fact checking from Shane
50:25
Speaker 1: and myself. Thank you for your work on the notes today, Shane,
50:28
Speaker 1: and for recording.
50:28
Speaker 2: With me Hey anytime.
50:30
Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and the person
50:34
Speaker 1: who stitched together all of the crazy amount of ums
50:37
Speaker 1: and restarts and beeps and issues that I had in
50:41
Speaker 1: this recording is Justin who makes all the audio stuff good.
50:46
Speaker 1: And he is the best.
50:47
Speaker 2: He is really truly the best.
50:49
Speaker 1: And of course thank you everyone who has listened to
50:52
Speaker 1: us and continues to listen to us, and we just
50:54
Speaker 1: really appreciate you all. I think that that is it
50:56
Speaker 1: for credits, before we get to our recommendations or am
50:59
Speaker 1: I missing anything?
51:00
Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it.
51:01
Speaker 1: Let's recommend some stuff recommendations.
51:12
Speaker 2: I'm gonna recommend a drink. It is delicious and it
51:15
Speaker 2: is that time of year. Okay, so by the time
51:17
Speaker 2: this episode comes out, you probably either have already had
51:19
Speaker 2: some or you are scrambling to make something. So hopefully
51:23
Speaker 2: you get this early so that you can go make it.
51:25
Speaker 2: And that is coquito, which is a translation of little coconut.
51:31
Speaker 2: It's a traditional Christmas drink. It originated in Puerto Rico.
51:34
Speaker 2: It's generally considered alcoholic, but it's very easy to make
51:37
Speaker 2: non alcoholic, just like eggnog. It's basically just called Puerto
51:40
Speaker 2: Rican eggnog. It is coconut milk, cream of coconut and
51:43
Speaker 2: sweetened condensed milk, vanilla, nutmeg, clove, and cinnamon most often,
51:48
Speaker 2: and you can throw a little bit of rum in
51:49
Speaker 2: there and spice it up if you want. I dream
51:52
Speaker 2: of this. I dream of this every year. I it
51:56
Speaker 2: is one of my favorite things to drink. A similar
51:59
Speaker 2: type of drink. If you've never had it, or if
52:01
Speaker 2: you've ever had it's maybe like horchata.
52:03
Speaker 1: I love hornhata.
52:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a creamy cinnamon type of beverage. And
52:07
Speaker 2: so I am today, after we record this episode and
52:10
Speaker 2: we're all done, I'm going to go make my annual
52:13
Speaker 2: coquito and make it for some friends. And it is
52:16
Speaker 2: delicious and I'm so excited for it.
52:19
Speaker 1: Well that sounds lovely, and I'm very excited for you.
52:22
Speaker 1: And it's great timing because we were actually just thinking
52:25
Speaker 1: about we need to have some like a festive holiday
52:29
Speaker 1: drink and didn't have any ideas. So now I think
52:32
Speaker 1: we might be making cooquitos.
52:35
Speaker 2: I love that. Make sure you get the cinnamon sticks.
52:37
Speaker 2: When you boil it down, you put the cinnamon sticks
52:39
Speaker 2: in there to.
52:40
Speaker 1: Steep, so already that's the way to do it. Yep, beautiful. Okay,
52:46
Speaker 1: I am recommending a thing that is for a board game.
52:50
Speaker 1: So I have mentioned before I'm a big fan of
52:52
Speaker 1: the board game wing Span. This is one of the
52:56
Speaker 1: more popular of the board games that's out there. Of
52:59
Speaker 1: people who are a new issue to the hobby, they've
53:00
Speaker 1: likely at least heard of it, if not played it.
53:03
Speaker 1: But they are these new promo packs. So Wingspan is
53:06
Speaker 1: about birds. As exciting as that sounds, you essentially are
53:09
Speaker 1: the game has. Like in the base game, I want
53:13
Speaker 1: to say it's one hundred and eighty unique birds something
53:16
Speaker 1: like that, but across maybe it's over two hundred. But
53:18
Speaker 1: across the different expansions there's now like over three hundred
53:21
Speaker 1: unique birds in there. But they've recently put out these
53:24
Speaker 1: fan designed bird promo packs that have like twenty five
53:29
Speaker 1: to thirty five ish birds in them, and they're from
53:32
Speaker 1: different parts of the world. So there's like a New
53:34
Speaker 1: Zealand pack and a Canada pack and a Briton pack
53:37
Speaker 1: and all that, and they add all these really cool
53:41
Speaker 1: new rules. They're like little it's just little things. They're
53:43
Speaker 1: not anything very complex, but they add these new birds
53:47
Speaker 1: with new bird art and new bird powers, and it's
53:50
Speaker 1: just the effects that the birds have in the game. Yeah,
53:53
Speaker 1: I've only got a couple of these so far, and
53:55
Speaker 1: I now need to have them all they are. It's
53:57
Speaker 1: so good. So if you're a fan of wing Span,
54:00
Speaker 1: then I strongly recommend adding the fan designed bird promos.
54:05
Speaker 1: A lot of them are designed to work with the
54:06
Speaker 1: other expansions. You technically don't need the other expansions for
54:09
Speaker 1: all of them, but they're mostly set up with the
54:12
Speaker 1: assumption that you will have the other expansions, but a
54:15
Speaker 1: lot of them you can still use without the expansions anyway.
54:18
Speaker 1: But anyway, the fan design burd promos are fantastic for
54:22
Speaker 1: people who are curious, because I was, they are different
54:25
Speaker 1: birds with different effects and different abilities than the ones.
54:29
Speaker 1: There are some like that have the same abilities as
54:32
Speaker 1: the base game, but a lot of them are brand new.
54:34
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
54:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty neat that they they have so much
54:38
Speaker 1: variety included in these little packs they come out with. Yeah,
54:41
Speaker 1: I think you like ten dollars a pack, maybe less
54:44
Speaker 1: than that, maybe they like seven dollars a pack. But again,
54:46
Speaker 1: you get the twenty five cards and then you get
54:47
Speaker 1: to add them in and they're they're great, So strong
54:49
Speaker 1: recommend there. Cool, I love it all right, so that's
54:52
Speaker 1: Kokito's the holiday drink, and then the fan designed bird
54:56
Speaker 1: promos for Wingspan promo packs for Wingspan. I think I've
55:00
Speaker 1: said all the things about writing in and talking to
55:03
Speaker 1: us and saying thank you, so anything else before we
55:05
Speaker 1: say our goodbyes.
55:06
Speaker 2: No, I think that does it. Thank you for listening
55:08
Speaker 2: to this sweet We hope you enjoyed it, and we
55:10
Speaker 2: were always open to hearing feedback.
55:11
Speaker 1: So absolutely. Yeah. If you're listening to this on the
55:14
Speaker 1: day that it comes out, then I hope you have
55:16
Speaker 1: a merry Christmas tomorrow and a very relaxed, non dramatic
55:20
Speaker 1: Christmas celebrations that's your thing. I have the Christmas I
55:24
Speaker 1: want to have, Yes, yeah, yeah, Christmas you need Yeah yeah.
55:28
Speaker 1: I hope it goes the way that you would like
55:29
Speaker 1: it to go. So Merry Christmas, everybody, Happy Holidays everybody else.
55:33
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
55:36
Speaker 2: We are out see ya. You've been listening to Why
55:39
Speaker 2: We Do what We Do. You can learn more about
55:41
Speaker 2: this and other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.
55:47
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.