Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Racing in the Digital Fast Lane: How Esports Is Reshaping Motorsports

Transcript

Racing in the Digital Fast Lane: How Esports Is Reshaping Motorsports · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

• 0:00
  BreakFix podcast is all about capturing the living history of people from
• 0:04
  all over the autosphere, from wrench turners and racers to artists, authors,
• 0:09
  designers, and everything in between.
• 0:11
  Our goal is to inspire a new generation of petrolheads that
• 0:15
  wonder, how did they get that job?
• 0:18
  Or become that person.
• 0:19
  The road to success is paved by all of us, because everyone has a story.
• 0:28
  Now, you might be asking yourself, what does a motorsports
• 0:30
  group have to do with gaming?
• 0:32
  A lot, actually.
• 0:33
  This year, because of COVID, we saw a huge uptick in virtual racing and esports
• 0:38
  as an alternative to being at the track.
• 0:40
  Everyone from IndyCar, IMSA, and even Formula 1 were competing online
• 0:44
  using iRacing and other platforms.
• 0:46
  And even pro am groups like SCCA have moved into this realm, while GTM
• 0:50
  on a smaller scale has been hosting virtual racing leagues since 2016.
• 0:54
  Gaming in many ways is a gateway into a sport, much like racing,
• 0:58
  but it can also be used as a training and conditioning tool.
• 1:02
  We're going to be talking a lot about how hand eye coordination, developing
• 1:05
  speed and reflexes, and esports safety plays into the world of motorsports.
• 1:10
  And joining us for this episode of Break Fix is a gaming expert known on Twitch
• 1:15
  to many as Jericho, and now the host of Amazon Prime's Chasing the Crown.
• 1:20
  Join us in welcoming Tucker Boner to the show.
• 1:23
  And as always, I'm your host Brad.
• 1:25
  And I'm Eric.
• 1:26
  So let's roll.
• 1:28
  Welcome Tucker.
• 1:29
  Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  It's I'm glad that I also get to hear you say my full name.
• 1:33
  A lot of hosts kind of off for the Tucker or Jericho, and
• 1:37
  then they just stopped there.
• 1:38
  But yeah, boner last name.
• 1:40
  Really good one.
• 1:41
  It's French.
• 1:42
  It's Bonet, right?
• 1:43
  Yeah.
• 1:44
  Bonet.
• 1:44
  Oh man.
• 1:45
  Did Jessica tell you about that?
• 1:46
  Yeah.
• 1:47
  I used to.
• 1:47
  For those listening, I, uh, Eric's wife was not my college guidance counselor,
• 1:51
  but somebody that I spent a lot of time hanging out with back in high school.
• 1:55
  And I used to joke that my last name was French or German.
• 1:59
  And, um, I got detention for that one time.
• 2:02
  So, you know, I know it's been a fun ride, but thanks for having me on.
• 2:05
  I'm excited to talk cars.
• 2:06
  I rarely get to do this.
• 2:08
  Absolutely.
• 2:08
  And so we've talked on several episodes about, you know, the advent
• 2:13
  of electric vehicles, EVs, the sun setting of two door coupes, and
• 2:17
  more importantly, that internal combustion engines are going away.
• 2:21
  The cost of supercars and hypercars is climbing and access to the
• 2:24
  track is becoming harder and harder and harder as we look forward.
• 2:27
  And as I mentioned in the intro, thanks to COVID, Motorsports took a
• 2:32
  break for a very long time in 2020.
• 2:36
  And so to combat that a lot of us turned to the virtual world, but it also started
• 2:41
  to pose the question, could e sports, and in this case, virtual racing, replace.
• 2:48
  Some real sports in the next 20 years.
• 2:50
  So what do you think about that?
• 2:52
  I guess a bit of background about me.
• 2:53
  I've been playing video games and making content around that for
• 2:56
  about 11 years now, coming up on 12.
• 2:59
  And, um, as somebody who's looked at gaming as a way to connect with people,
• 3:04
  as well as spend my free time, just enjoying stuff outside of the real world.
• 3:09
  I've been pretty bullish on the idea that e sports as a competitive outlet
• 3:14
  would be something that we would see.
• 3:16
  Grow and grow and grow to the point where eventually it's inevitable that e sports
• 3:20
  as a platform will be equal or greater than any other major sport that we have.
• 3:26
  It's simply the only guess I should say, broad term game, football,
• 3:31
  baseball, cricket, e sports that is global and crosses literally
• 3:38
  every single line of gender or race or whatever, everybody knows video
• 3:43
  games and eventually does play them.
• 3:45
  So I think that.
• 3:47
  Specifically for racing, you talked about iRacing and how COVID has kind of
• 3:51
  pushed everybody into the digital world.
• 3:54
  You've got people like Lando Norris who are sitting here playing games
• 3:58
  on Twitch, not just iRacing though, but using Twitch as a platform to
• 4:02
  connect with viewers and connect with people that ordinarily wouldn't get
• 4:06
  to have that one on one conversation.
• 4:08
  So jumping into iRacing as a simulation game, as a game that
• 4:12
  it was built specifically to be as close to real life as possible.
• 4:17
  It's pretty apparent that if Lando can do this, and I believe there was somebody
• 4:21
  who was a, um, amateur, somebody who raced in a, like tier three league, sorry, if
• 4:26
  I don't know the correct terminology, but that person was not a professional racer.
• 4:30
  They were just an eye racing e sports player.
• 4:33
  They moved over and they did pretty well for that tier that they're racing.
• 4:36
  And so I think the proof is there and it's only 2020.
• 4:39
  We've only been doing real simulation racing for about 10 years now.
• 4:45
  Okay.
• 4:45
  Everybody remembers the arcade games, right?
• 4:48
  Where you jump in and it's like NASCAR and you put your quarters
• 4:50
  in and that was a whole thing.
• 4:53
  I mean, we've gotten really good at making things as close to real life as possible.
• 4:58
  And, um, if this is how far we've come in five years, You can't be telling me
• 5:02
  that in 10, 15, 20, 40 years, digital racing will not be as competitive as
• 5:09
  realistic and as widespread given the adaptation of technology as possible.
• 5:15
  Uh, and to your, your point, you were saying earlier about the, the people
• 5:19
  that started in, in the east, in the e sports and moved over to the real life.
• 5:23
  I believe a couple of years ago, Gran Turismo as part of their.
• 5:27
  I guess launch or marketing for the new game.
• 5:29
  They did a whole tournament and got a couple of drivers.
• 5:32
  And I think they actually competed in professional touring car series.
• 5:37
  One of the biggest sponsorship deals I did with was with Audi.
• 5:41
  And I did this back in 2015.
• 5:43
  Um, it was centered specifically around the 24 hours of Lamont.
• 5:47
  And I went to San Francisco and they had a 24 hour live stream where we did six hour
• 5:54
  shifts and we sat inside of a, and I'll send you this photo if I can find it, um,
• 6:00
  maybe you want to throw that in there.
• 6:02
  I sat inside a model F1 race car in full racing gear, a helmet, everything.
• 6:09
  We sat in there and we.
• 6:11
  I said F1 and I probably was, is it F1?
• 6:14
  It's probably LMP if it's Audi, but yeah.
• 6:16
  Yeah.
• 6:16
  Yeah.
• 6:17
  Sorry.
• 6:17
  So I sat inside a one to one scale model alongside six other people
• 6:22
  and we all raced for 24 hours.
• 6:25
  Yeah.
• 6:25
  And, and I mean, it was, let me tell you the sweatiest, most disgusting I
• 6:29
  have ever been playing video games.
• 6:31
  I am, I love racing games.
• 6:33
  I do.
• 6:33
  But on my team, somebody didn't have their driver's license.
• 6:36
  They were from overseas in China.
• 6:38
  And the sweetest person I know, but damn, she could not drive.
• 6:42
  She went backwards on the course.
• 6:43
  It was not a good show.
• 6:44
  We did come in last, but it was for all good fun.
• 6:47
  And we just racing alongside Lamont and showcasing that to people on Twitch.
• 6:52
  It was a really special experience for me, but it just goes to show you that.
• 6:55
  This was already in process five years ago.
• 6:58
  I had to check what year it was five years ago.
• 7:01
  And so I can only assume that this is going to continue
• 7:03
  and grow and grow and grow.
• 7:05
  So it's interesting you bring that up because I think there's two ways
• 7:08
  to look at this as we unpack it.
• 7:09
  So there's the spectator view that a lot of us got during COVID, which
• 7:14
  Carriers like NBC and ESPN and even IMSA TV, for that matter, were showing
• 7:18
  the races as if we were watching them on regular broadcast television.
• 7:23
  To simulate the real world, they brought in the actual announcers
• 7:27
  that we're used to hearing.
• 7:28
  And then they were overlaid and all that.
• 7:30
  And, and the photo realism of the games and the quality of, of the graphics
• 7:34
  now is to the point where it is hard to discern at least from 10 or 12 feet.
• 7:39
  And, If you're watching a real race or watching a virtual one now, when you
• 7:43
  keep bringing up Twitch and probably a lot of our audience is older and
• 7:47
  they don't understand what that is.
• 7:49
  I want to kind of set the stage there.
• 7:50
  You're seeing the racing happening from behind the scenes.
• 7:54
  You're looking at the driver, you're talking to the
• 7:56
  players, you know, all that.
• 7:57
  They're talking to you as they're doing their multitasking
• 8:00
  or they're multi threaded.
• 8:01
  I like to call it.
• 8:02
  So.
• 8:03
  Why is that appealing?
• 8:04
  I just kind of want to go down that path for a minute versus the standard
• 8:08
  of just, I'm going to watch the race.
• 8:10
  I, and again, excuse me, cause I do most of the podcasts I do come on
• 8:14
  are generally right down my alley and people do know what Twitch is.
• 8:17
  So if you're unfamiliar, just like YouTube is the platform you go to, to watch videos
• 8:22
  that people make and anyone can do it.
• 8:24
  Twitch is the number one platform to go watch people doing it live.
• 8:28
  And once again, anyone can do it.
• 8:30
  So you can just sign up and go live from your phone or from your computer.
• 8:33
  And it's, it's that easy.
• 8:35
  So the reason that I believe Twitch is a incredible platform specifically
• 8:41
  for sports and anything involving video games and e sports and for
• 8:46
  this conversation racing is because you get a one to one reaction and
• 8:51
  interaction with the person that is live.
• 8:54
  So think about it like when you are having a conversation with people or
• 8:59
  you've got your friends on the couch and you are all doing or watching
• 9:02
  somebody play a game or watching a movie.
• 9:05
  There is a, an ability for the person broadcasting, whether they're
• 9:08
  broadcasting to five people or a thousand people to interact with people
• 9:14
  who are commenting live on the content as it happens, and that one to one
• 9:18
  interaction is a very special one.
• 9:20
  Because imagine if you could go see David Bowie life.
• 9:24
  And you were like, Hey, David, that was a wonderful song.
• 9:27
  And he looked at you, said your name and said, yeah, thank you.
• 9:30
  I appreciate you, uh, enjoying that.
• 9:32
  Yeah.
• 9:32
  David Bowie could do that every single day, eight hours a day.
• 9:36
  And you could get that special interaction that you could
• 9:39
  never, ever get anywhere else.
• 9:41
  And because it's just so accessible and easy.
• 9:44
  So in my generation, and I'm not going to date myself, but I did, you're old.
• 9:48
  We know, but I'm not a boomer, but you know, Brad and I, as an example, we grew
• 9:54
  up in the last analog generation, right?
• 9:57
  But we were the first early adopters of the digital generation, which means.
• 10:02
  The first video game consoles we had in our hands were Ataris, right?
• 10:05
  And then Nintendos, and we grew up, and so it's, it's a part of our lives.
• 10:09
  You know, looking back, one of the things that was always said is,
• 10:12
  there's nothing more boring than watching your buddy play the game.
• 10:15
  Right.
• 10:16
  And so that's where I find the disconnect with twitch as an older
• 10:19
  gamer, where it's like, ah, do I really want to watch Tucker playing battle?
• 10:22
  Right.
• 10:23
  Right.
• 10:24
  No.
• 10:24
  And that is a fair point.
• 10:26
  And trust me when I say I've had this exact conversation in
• 10:29
  infinite amount of times, I went on NPR and had this conversation.
• 10:33
  Specifically because I love it.
• 10:35
  It is such a good and very basic idea to have.
• 10:39
  Are you bored watching somebody else do something you could just go into yourself.
• 10:44
  And the easiest thing, especially for this podcast to say is, what do you say
• 10:49
  about every professional sport ever?
• 10:51
  Why not go play football yourself?
• 10:53
  That is the most basic argument to have.
• 10:56
  And truthfully, it makes a lot of sense.
• 10:58
  If you could watch Lando race once every single month, that's cool.
• 11:03
  But what if you could watch Lando race every single track
• 11:07
  in the planet every single day?
• 11:09
  What if you could get more of your favorite races?
• 11:12
  Why would anyone say, I just don't know if I really want to spend time
• 11:15
  watching the thing I already love.
• 11:17
  And to another extent, because I am not an e sports professional
• 11:21
  gamer, I do play games for living.
• 11:24
  I'm not professional.
• 11:24
  I'm awful at video games.
• 11:26
  Why do people watch me?
• 11:27
  Why do people watch Conan do anything?
• 11:30
  Why do people watch Jimmy Fallon do anything?
• 11:32
  I am not great at video games, but I like to think that I'm good at presenting.
• 11:36
  The game in an entertaining way that even if you are going to go play it
• 11:40
  yourself, even if you are going to just watch me play and never buy it, you're
• 11:44
  still entertained in some capacity.
• 11:46
  And you just touched on something that I actually like to do.
• 11:49
  I jumped into the video game hobby of late.
• 11:53
  You know, I didn't start playing video games really heavily until the Xbox 360.
• 11:57
  So I missed all of those excellent titles.
• 12:00
  On the Nintendo and the Atari and the TurboGrafx 16 and all
• 12:05
  the old stuff, even PC gaming.
• 12:07
  So I enjoy going back and watching people play all these old games that I
• 12:11
  was told, Oh, you should totally play this one because I can't even find them.
• 12:16
  I mean, you can't find unless you've got an emulator or something.
• 12:18
  You can't find these games.
• 12:19
  Also, do I want to spend a hundred hours playing through final
• 12:24
  fantasy one when 15 just came out?
• 12:26
  You know, I'm, I'm not going to waste my time doing that.
• 12:29
  I'd rather just watch somebody else go through the motions, you
• 12:31
  know, and, and, and give their commentary about why they like it.
• 12:34
  And Eric is not a boomer, but he has boomers by definition,
• 12:40
  anybody over like 30 is a boomer.
• 12:42
  I'm 27 really close.
• 12:44
  And by the youth internet standard, I've been called a boomer a couple of times.
• 12:48
  It hurts.
• 12:48
  I know.
• 12:49
  Dang.
• 12:49
  I'm like, I'm like your grandfather.
• 12:53
  But no, so to going back to that, I just think mentally, it's like, it's
• 12:57
  a hurdle that you have to come over because I don't think you'd want to watch
• 13:00
  me and Brad playing forza because let me, let me paint the picture for you.
• 13:03
  Okay.
• 13:04
  First of all, yeah, there's the glens today, but we'll get into that later.
• 13:08
  Brad doesn't talk, right?
• 13:11
  But what he does is he sits in the squatty potty position and he
• 13:14
  just like he's dead focus, right?
• 13:16
  He's leaning forward, right?
• 13:18
  Yeah, and meanwhile i'm not saying anything either because i'm literally
• 13:21
  making what I call a kermit face You know where he scrunches up his mouth
• 13:24
  and whatever and i'm grinding my teeth and i'm not saying anything either So
• 13:28
  it's really not that exciting, right?
• 13:31
  I, and that's funny.
• 13:32
  You mentioned it cause everybody has a gamer face, right?
• 13:34
  It's a conscious, it's a concentration face.
• 13:36
  And for me, my mouth is a little bit open and I'm just staring at the screen.
• 13:40
  I don't lean forward too much, gotten used to that, but just like anyone can
• 13:44
  make a video, anyone can live stream.
• 13:46
  It doesn't mean that everyone should, right?
• 13:48
  It like, just because anyone can play a sport, it doesn't mean that
• 13:51
  everyone is going to want to watch your rec basketball at like LA fitness.
• 13:56
  It's probably ugly and not too engaging to your point of why would anyone
• 14:01
  want to watch the general idea of e sports or I guess Twitch in general,
• 14:05
  it makes a lot of sense when you look at how much access you get.
• 14:10
  So, it's a learned process where when I first started out playing
• 14:14
  games live 10 years ago, I would be playing games and then when there was
• 14:19
  a break in the action, I'd look over and I'd read chat and I'd say, hey,
• 14:23
  you know, let me respond to this.
• 14:24
  It was hard to divert your attention to one or the other.
• 14:28
  Now, I can play Forza no problem and talk to chat like during
• 14:32
  the middle of the race, right?
• 14:33
  It just takes a cursory glance over to the right side, see
• 14:35
  chat, then you're back into it.
• 14:37
  Am I going to do it during a hairpin turn?
• 14:39
  No, probably.
• 14:39
  I mean, yeah, I will.
• 14:41
  And I'll crash and that's why I'm not a good gamer.
• 14:42
  But I mean, Lando is, and I keep bringing him up because he is literally
• 14:46
  the only professional race car driver I know that streams on Switch.
• 14:50
  But he does a really good job of showcasing how It is a learned process
• 14:54
  to juggle both the people that are actively chatting with you, your
• 14:58
  entertainment, the game itself, and how you're presenting all the material in a
• 15:02
  complete package for somebody sitting at home to get some enjoyment out of, even
• 15:07
  if they're not engaging with chat, even if they're just sitting there eating.
• 15:10
  You've touched on something earlier and I want to pull that thread a little bit in
• 15:13
  that e sports levels, the playing field.
• 15:16
  Unfortunately, it's a double edged sword.
• 15:19
  On one end, it's open to anyone.
• 15:22
  Whether they be race, creed, color, age, etc.
• 15:26
  But I also see a darker side to it.
• 15:28
  Because if I want to go compete with Lando, I can't.
• 15:32
  I can, but I can't.
• 15:34
  Because when you look at those IMSA races, or the sanction races, the
• 15:38
  replacement races, I could have been ranked number one in the world.
• 15:41
  But I wasn't allowed to run with those guys.
• 15:44
  Right.
• 15:44
  I think the downside that we'll see is the access will start to be delineated
• 15:50
  in such that you need to qualify for these bigger, large scale races.
• 15:54
  So I know that's, I know that's a lot there, but let's talk about both.
• 15:58
  No, this is, I got to split this one up.
• 16:00
  So one, Lando right now, even if you want it to, there's nothing
• 16:04
  you could do outside of paying him money specifically to come race you.
• 16:07
  And even then he might just tell you to F off.
• 16:09
  And, and so to your argument of access, that's kind of a moot point because in
• 16:14
  real life, currently, there's no way that anyone can access anybody they
• 16:18
  want to race against or play any game with, or play basketball with outside
• 16:23
  of doing some incredible charity thing.
• 16:25
  So that in its own as a, uh, kind of like a red Herring to your point,
• 16:29
  or I guess your question of how do we see this progressing where you're
• 16:32
  going to have to start qualifying?
• 16:34
  There's two main factors with e sports.
• 16:36
  One.
• 16:37
  There will be the game, whoever is publishing the game, whether it's
• 16:41
  iRacing, or for Forza, it would be Microsoft, and for um, Need for Speed,
• 16:46
  it's Criterion, distributed by EA, and all these games will be It's up to the
• 16:50
  publisher to determine who gets the gold seal of this is the premier event.
• 16:57
  Due to the nature of eSports and gaming in general, for the most part,
• 17:02
  anyone can throw their own event.
• 17:04
  Now, it gets a little hairy once a lot of money gets involved,
• 17:06
  licensing agreements and such, but in practice, anyone can make an event.
• 17:12
  So when you say, ah, I can't believe that I have to qualify in order to play
• 17:16
  in this main event, That doesn't mean you can't also compete in one of the
• 17:20
  arguably thousands of existing community run tournaments against people that are
• 17:25
  equally as good as you, if not as good as the people that are professionals at it.
• 17:30
  And that in its own right, it depends on like what you want from e sports.
• 17:34
  Do you, are you doing it because you want to play with famous people?
• 17:37
  Are you doing it because you want to compete?
• 17:39
  Are you doing it because you want to be the best at the game?
• 17:41
  Or I guess the best at the sport when we're talking about it at large.
• 17:45
  And I think that it's a tough sell for me, for anyone to argue, man, a sport
• 17:51
  as expensive and dangerous as racing will not benefit from the aggressively
• 17:58
  less expensive simulation racing platform and the safer version of that.
• 18:04
  Where's the downside to that?
• 18:05
  Because when you look at a tournament.
• 18:08
  And you say you have to qualify.
• 18:09
  Well, yeah, if you don't qualify, you're just not as good as the people who did.
• 18:12
  It's just like real life.
• 18:13
  I mean, for the, for the sake of my argument, simulation racing
• 18:18
  is exactly the same as real life racing without any of the downsides.
• 18:22
  I mean, that is, but that's the hill I'll die on, but with all the
• 18:25
  politics associated with it, right?
• 18:28
  I mean, you will also, until we get to the point where you have full haptic
• 18:32
  feedback suits and you, or if you build one of those, like, incredible
• 18:36
  full dive, you know, machines where it's actually, you're getting car
• 18:39
  body roll and you can physically feel how the car is responding to you.
• 18:43
  I will concede that point.
• 18:44
  There is nothing that will simulate that.
• 18:46
  For a human at this point in time, outside of very expensive machines.
• 18:50
  And at that point, drive the car, right?
• 18:52
  Like just go get a car.
• 18:53
  And I meant politics being, there's always sponsors and money involved in,
• 18:57
  you know, professional race car drivers.
• 18:59
  There's a lot behind that particular job.
• 19:01
  But if I take the top 10 ranked iRacing drivers in the world that
• 19:06
  aren't professional drivers and try to pit them against each other,
• 19:09
  the two worlds shall never meet.
• 19:11
  So what I see happening though, as, as we embrace eSports more and more, That there
• 19:15
  will be this, you know, separation of, well, you're just an amateur and we're
• 19:20
  paying this guy to spot, you know, be sponsored for, you know, whoever, and,
• 19:24
  you know, Jeff Gordon is driving today.
• 19:26
  You will, you thou shalt never drive with Jeff Gordon.
• 19:29
  Let's use that as an example.
• 19:30
  Right.
• 19:30
  So.
• 19:30
  So anyway, I, I don't know that we wanna go too much further on that.
• 19:33
  I wanna belabor the point, but I just see this, I see this, this schism
• 19:37
  happening where the real world and the, the world that invites us into
• 19:42
  video games, all of a sudden a glass ceiling appears and we won't be able to
• 19:46
  cross and go compete with, because we don't wanna make those guys look bad.
• 19:50
  I mean, there's gamers out there that are better than the pros.
• 19:53
  In a simulation, let's face it.
• 19:55
  And I think it, I think that's just it.
• 19:56
  I mean, you don't want if you're Mercedes, for example, and you've got millions of
• 20:01
  dollars tied up in Lewis Hamilton and you put him up against the number one e
• 20:06
  sports driver, iRacing driver or whatever, he beats the crap out of Lewis Hamilton.
• 20:11
  I mean, there's no upside.
• 20:13
  To Mercedes or Lewis Hamilton to do that.
• 20:15
  There's, there's no money to be made off of that.
• 20:18
  I mean, it'll hurt Lewis's, uh, reputation and everything.
• 20:22
  I think that I just don't think from a PR standpoint, it could be good for Lewis
• 20:26
  Hamilton because basketball players, I think sometimes they go back and, and
• 20:31
  play in the old and one tournaments and stuff like that and do a little bit of
• 20:34
  street ball, but when they get beat, it is terrible publicity for them guys.
• 20:39
  I gotta, I gotta be honest.
• 20:39
  You're just super far off the mark on this one.
• 20:42
  Simulation racing, while identical in physics and everything is a completely
• 20:48
  different skill set to real life racing specific at this current point in
• 20:52
  time, specifically because there is a disconnect between you using any sort
• 20:58
  of not real system and a real one.
• 21:01
  And Lando is a wonderful example of this because he gets his ass beat all
• 21:06
  the time in public matches and yet not a single sponsor is like, man, I can't
• 21:11
  believe we're sponsoring this loser.
• 21:12
  Every single professional sport has people come in.
• 21:15
  Trevor Mays, a twins baseball pitcher, or I guess he was formerly with the twins.
• 21:20
  He's a super nice guy.
• 21:22
  Streams, video games, all the time streaming video games.
• 21:25
  And the idea that you guys have is a head to head, like who's better.
• 21:28
  We'll never be a, let's just do it in digital and see what happens thing.
• 21:33
  Until we get to a perfect, realistic example of physical racing in digital.
• 21:39
  And we are decades out of there.
• 21:41
  And so we can have this argument again.
• 21:43
  In decades, and I know that we are talking about a long time from now,
• 21:46
  but in that case, if we are in a perfect one to one, then, and your
• 21:50
  number one driver gets beaten, then it goes, like, just switch it and then
• 21:55
  put the digital guy in the physical car and he should still win, right?
• 21:58
  If you do these head to heads and they are truly equal,
• 22:02
  then the best person will win.
• 22:04
  And at that point, we're not having the argument of like, is digital real racing?
• 22:08
  It's the same, because that is a truly equal one to one.
• 22:12
  Everything's the same.
• 22:13
  There's no argument to be had, but we're not there.
• 22:15
  And so, if you bring a professional in the digital world and they
• 22:18
  lose Mercedes doesn't give a shit.
• 22:21
  They don't care.
• 22:22
  And I, you know, and this is ghost, like I'm doing a sponsored thing
• 22:25
  with Cadillac car companies, and especially just want young people
• 22:30
  to see cool stuff in their vehicle.
• 22:32
  So if their number one guy loses.
• 22:34
  Fine.
• 22:35
  It'll be fine.
• 22:35
  I promise.
• 22:36
  We call this boomers.
• 22:38
  We got that boomer mentality.
• 22:40
  But I do think there's there's two pieces there.
• 22:44
  Well, three really.
• 22:45
  One of them is we've been at this game for a long time.
• 22:50
  Like real life or the game game?
• 22:52
  Well, the game game, the pun, the pun intended there.
• 22:55
  We've been at this game, especially in motorsports to
• 22:58
  digitize it for a very long time.
• 23:00
  And I will say, I would make the argument that motorsport is probably one of the
• 23:04
  more difficult things to get right.
• 23:07
  No, because the computational power necessary to make the physics engine
• 23:11
  works, there's huge amounts of compromise, all this kind of stuff, right?
• 23:15
  The PC guys.
• 23:16
  Because you were talking about some of the early games, it goes way back.
• 23:20
  I mean, granted, we're not going to talk about pole position on the
• 23:22
  Atari, but you know, when the PCs, when you started hitting the 486s
• 23:27
  and the early Pentiums and stuff like that, you were starting to see the
• 23:30
  first Need for Speed come out, right?
• 23:31
  Which is nothing like the Need for Speed of today.
• 23:33
  It was supposed to be a simulator, you know, it was, it was, Road Track sponsored
• 23:37
  it, you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 23:38
  It was supposed to emulate real life.
• 23:40
  And then you saw the original Formula One games come out, you know, and you
• 23:43
  saw the early Codemasters stuff come out, which they've, they've propelled
• 23:46
  themselves as a leader in the space, but we still haven't been able to get there.
• 23:51
  And I think it begs the question, uh, begs a lot of questions,
• 23:55
  you know, PC versus console, you know, where do we go from here?
• 23:59
  Why are we making all these compromises?
• 24:01
  You know, we've got more power on a wristwatch now than we did
• 24:03
  in those computers back then.
• 24:05
  Why can't we get this right?
• 24:06
  So maybe not a question for us to answer, but it's definitely an interesting topic.
• 24:10
  All right.
• 24:11
  So, I mean, first off Need for Speed, the original one on the PlayStation
• 24:15
  one was the game that got me into.
• 24:17
  Racing in general and you're right need for speed did start off as a simulation
• 24:22
  game And then by underground you're like drag racing an escalade with speakers
• 24:26
  in the back and glow neon light Which you just shook your head, but I loved
• 24:30
  it That was what got myself and many people of my age truly invested in cars
• 24:36
  fast and furious like these Iconic, not realistic in any way, shape or
• 24:41
  form games really propelled my love for vehicles, my love for shitty econo, but
• 24:47
  like the fact that I still idolize a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution six, seven
• 24:51
  and eight is the weirdest thing to me.
• 24:53
  Because, you know, like I was driving a C 63 and I was still like, man, but
• 24:58
  if only I had that untuned Mitsubishi, like what a weird thing to have to say,
• 25:04
  and you guys are going to experience it, not just from a racing fan standpoint,
• 25:09
  but we have to deal with that in every game is this mentality of elitism
• 25:14
  where the thing that I enjoy about this or music is a great example.
• 25:19
  Like this is.
• 25:20
  actually better made music, and that is why I enjoy it, and I can't
• 25:25
  believe you like music that is objectively worse than my music.
• 25:29
  That kind of gatekeeping and limiting, like, where people can find their
• 25:33
  fandoms from, and where people can find their enjoyment from, doesn't really
• 25:38
  help the progression of anything.
• 25:40
  Anything in general and gaming is paramount, like the
• 25:43
  number one in gatekeeping.
• 25:45
  It is a huge topic and it always has been and always will
• 25:48
  be mentioned PC and console.
• 25:50
  What's the deal with that?
• 25:51
  PC elitism is, is all, look, I'm a PC elitist too, but it's, it's
• 25:56
  objectively better, but who am I to say?
• 25:59
  Like, ah, I can't believe you're making compromises on console, which
• 26:02
  has less power, all that stuff.
• 26:03
  That's, that's not for me to decide because if it gets you into gaming
• 26:06
  in general, what's the big deal.
• 26:08
  So you mentioned a little bit about why are we making these compromises?
• 26:13
  Why are we not getting this true one to one?
• 26:15
  We have more computing processing in our cell phones than we did
• 26:20
  10 years ago in our desktops.
• 26:21
  I mean, like it's, it's wild.
• 26:23
  There's a phrase for it.
• 26:25
  I can't remember what law it is where computational power kind of
• 26:29
  exponentially grows to a certain point.
• 26:31
  Why are we making these compromises?
• 26:32
  I mean, you said it best when you started the question.
• 26:35
  It's really, really hard to simulate anything realistic, but to simulate
• 26:40
  something as nuanced as racing.
• 26:42
  What if your right tire in your back is one PSI less than all the other tires?
• 26:47
  How does that affect you going around a corner while breaking, you know,
• 26:52
  and throttling at half power when the road is wet and there's three
• 26:56
  pieces of gravel there, like how in the world are you supposed to expect
• 27:00
  that superpower computer level?
• 27:03
  And so what we have right now is great.
• 27:05
  It really is great.
• 27:06
  It simulates best of the worst environment.
• 27:09
  So if you're racing on a wet tarmac, no, it's not going to have like
• 27:13
  oil slicks from somebody dropping three drops of oil around turn
• 27:17
  four, like it just can't do that.
• 27:18
  So it brings up the question though.
• 27:20
  They say a lot of times there are certain games that have pushed
• 27:23
  the envelope for gaming, right?
• 27:25
  Like final fantasy was always one of the high watermarks.
• 27:27
  Like if your system could render it at full specs, you're
• 27:31
  not talking about crisis.
• 27:32
  Well, whatever.
• 27:33
  I mean, I'm in school, right?
• 27:34
  But using that as an example, I often think though, what
• 27:38
  you just described, right?
• 27:39
  I'm going to a turn X number of mile an hour, uh, you know, my tires
• 27:43
  are off, you know, it's raining.
• 27:45
  I got three pieces of gravel.
• 27:46
  My brain is making all those computations when I'm behind
• 27:50
  the wheel on the racetrack.
• 27:52
  Because in all honesty, there are different ways to drive and both Brad and
• 27:55
  I instruct drivers and things like that.
• 27:57
  We talked about a lot on the show, but there are yes,
• 28:00
  visual cues and this and that.
• 28:01
  We try to look for those things in gaming.
• 28:03
  And I've heard a lot of people say, hey, I can't drive with my eyes.
• 28:06
  Right?
• 28:06
  So I have to mentally like, simulate.
• 28:09
  What the physical conditions would be when I'm behind the console or behind the PC.
• 28:14
  But what's funny is my brain is taking in all of that input
• 28:17
  when I'm behind the wheel.
• 28:19
  And not to say that the steering wheel is a very fine and sensitive
• 28:23
  device, but there's so much feedback coming from everywhere.
• 28:26
  Like you said, talking about haptic feedback and all that kind that.
• 28:30
  The computational power to, to simulate even the brain.
• 28:33
  I think we're talking next level computing.
• 28:36
  I get kind of offended when people poo poo racing games and they're like, Oh,
• 28:39
  well, you're just doing laps and whatever.
• 28:41
  And it's like, do you really understand what it takes to even make this
• 28:45
  work versus a first person shooter where they've been using the same.
• 28:48
  Same engine for the last 20 years and making it look prettier.
• 28:53
  I'm going to fight you, man.
• 28:54
  You can't be coming at my number one like that.
• 28:56
  I mean, yes.
• 28:57
  All right.
• 28:57
  So we'll just ignore that last statement, but you're, but I think
• 29:01
  to anyone who's listening and they're just like, man, I can't believe this.
• 29:04
  The youth is coming in here and talking about talking bad about my real life
• 29:08
  racing, everybody thinks about video games as a thing on a screen, right?
• 29:14
  Whether it's CRT or what we have going on right now.
• 29:17
  But the true conversation myself and you both are having is not about where
• 29:23
  racing is currently, I mean, well we are having this conversation, but in
• 29:27
  the future, if you've ever, actually I have to ask this question, have either
• 29:30
  of you used VR in the last five years?
• 29:34
  Not recently, no.
• 29:35
  Okay.
• 29:35
  You mean, uh, Virtual Boy?
• 29:37
  Oh my god.
• 29:39
  Alright, I gotta go, guys.
• 29:40
  Uh, no.
• 29:41
  Uh, virtual reality, when it first came out, it took consumers
• 29:46
  about five and a half years ago.
• 29:48
  I got one of the first press copies of the HTC Vive, put on the headset,
• 29:54
  plug it into your aggressively expensive and very powerful computer,
• 29:58
  and you played in, like, what looked to be somewhere between, like, 900p.
• 30:03
  It was, it was, it was incredible.
• 30:05
  Even though it was clearly not where it should be.
• 30:09
  In five years, currently right now, virtual reality is so absurdly good that
• 30:15
  you even playing a game that looks like Legos will forget that things aren't real
• 30:21
  and you will try and lean your hand on a platform just because you've been in
• 30:26
  there for 20 minutes and you'll fall over.
• 30:27
  It happens to everyone.
• 30:28
  It happened to my dad when I showed him it.
• 30:30
  It happened to me when I was doing it.
• 30:32
  It is immersive to the point where it doesn't really matter To your
• 30:37
  brain that you know, it's not real.
• 30:40
  It's it's fucking real virtual reality will pretty much Offset everything that
• 30:46
  you were mentioning about wow, my brain has to do all these Conversions, right?
• 30:51
  It has to think oh i'm actually driving the car instead of staring
• 30:54
  at the screen Oh, I can't really see what's to my left without moving
• 30:57
  my controller and just That's not a natural movement to do, right?
• 31:01
  You're used to looking to your left and your right, not using your hands to do it.
• 31:04
  Putting yourself in a full dive, uh, virtual reality system will inherently
• 31:09
  make it so it is arguably the same, but you're still correct in the point that
• 31:14
  you're not going to be able to see four pebbles on the road at our current tech.
• 31:17
  It's just not a thing that you could do, but you might be able to feel it in a
• 31:20
  real car if you start to lose traction.
• 31:23
  Uh, I just wanted to say we're both of the console master race, not the
• 31:27
  PC master race, speaking to us, and we clearly haven't had the experience
• 31:30
  with VR, talking about what are some avenues we can go through, especially
• 31:35
  with the new consoles that are coming out this, this, uh, season, where could
• 31:39
  we go, you know, what could we purchase to experience that on the consoles?
• 31:42
  New Xbox.
• 31:43
  Oh, dude!
• 31:45
  Do you want this guys?
• 31:45
  I don't know.
• 31:46
  I just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:50
  I got my PlayStation downstairs too.
• 31:51
  Uh, so you're right.
• 31:53
  With any technology you saw with the first cell phones, you know, those giant ones
• 31:57
  cost like 2, 000 back in 19 something, I don't know, 80 and 19 Zach Morris.
• 32:03
  Yeah, exactly.
• 32:04
  And the technology that starts off, something will always be prohibitively
• 32:09
  expensive, whether it's computational or otherwise TVs, original TVs.
• 32:14
  Color TVs, you can go back and look like adjusted for inflation.
• 32:17
  It's like a 2, 000, right?
• 32:19
  2, 000 to just get some color on your screen instead of black and white.
• 32:22
  Tech is expensive at the start because it's expensive to build the
• 32:26
  machines, to make it, to fine tune how you're going to produce these
• 32:29
  products and put it all together.
• 32:30
  Like, how are you going to streamline this?
• 32:32
  So with virtual reality, five years ago, when I, when I first got it,
• 32:36
  the vibe, I think was like 1, 200.
• 32:40
  You had to put physical base stations up in the corners of your 10 foot room.
• 32:44
  So it could track your motion.
• 32:46
  Your PC had to be probably about 2, 500 worth of components just to run it.
• 32:51
  And even then the experience was not great.
• 32:54
  Now you can get an Oculus Rift.
• 32:58
  I'm not a fan of Facebook, but you have to have a Facebook account to use
• 33:02
  this because Facebook bought Oculus.
• 33:04
  You can get one.
• 33:05
  I'm pretty sure it's wireless.
• 33:06
  You don't need any base stations.
• 33:09
  I think it's like 400 bucks and it can run on a pretty mid level computer.
• 33:13
  I'm talking like 1500 or a thousand dollars.
• 33:15
  That is, and it is pretty damn good.
• 33:18
  I'm not going to lie.
• 33:19
  I worked with them for a sponsor thing and I was like, Jesus, I
• 33:22
  didn't have a lot of space in my old place, so I couldn't do VR.
• 33:24
  I was like, I didn't know you could just do it sitting down.
• 33:27
  And the PlayStation 4 also had a console version of VR, which was also pretty good.
• 33:33
  It was a little gimmicky, but it was pretty good.
• 33:35
  So there are avenues and there were avenues for console players who wanted
• 33:39
  to experience virtual reality, but didn't have the funds to just go all out
• 33:43
  and Block off a room in their house to do this in order for them to enjoy it.
• 33:47
  And you'll see, just like every other piece of technology, the more that
• 33:52
  people get invested in it, the more that the enthusiasts buy it and help.
• 33:56
  Fund the future progression of that platform, the cheaper it'll be.
• 34:01
  And just like everything else in tech, where we had cell phones with
• 34:04
  tiny screens or no screen at all.
• 34:06
  Now we all have a full computer in our pocket and just 10 years, just like that
• 34:11
  virtual reality will become openly, um, and very accessible to the mass market.
• 34:16
  And I I'm very bullish on the fact that it will replace quite a bit of
• 34:21
  our learning and teaching environments.
• 34:24
  It is that useful and good for everyone involved.
• 34:26
  So I'm going to walk back my statement about VR because I think
• 34:30
  VR in the motorsports world has been presented in a different way.
• 34:32
  And I think you alluded to it about talking about the event you did with
• 34:36
  Audi being in a full cockpit car and all this kind of kind of simulated real life.
• 34:40
  The issue I've taken every time I've sat in one of the simulators
• 34:44
  and I understand the value.
• 34:45
  And I think we're going to talk about that as a training tool.
• 34:48
  The problem I have with is though they are supposed to give you the Feel
• 34:53
  of being behind the wheel of a car.
• 34:54
  And I'm okay with force feedback and force feedback has gotten a lot better
• 34:58
  over the years, you know, adjustable pedals, all that kind of stuff.
• 35:01
  That stuff feels very natural.
• 35:03
  Even the shift boxes that they use feel very natural.
• 35:05
  The problem I have is when you're on a giant gyroscope that is shuffling you
• 35:10
  around in a million different directions to try to simulate G and you have
• 35:14
  these really odd sensations because there's somebody who races and somebody
• 35:18
  who teaches high performance driving.
• 35:20
  That is not how a car feels.
• 35:21
  That is not how a car articulates.
• 35:23
  That is not how a car moves, period.
• 35:25
  Flat out, hands down.
• 35:26
  And the, the motions of a vehicle, especially if you use braking as an
• 35:30
  example, are much more subtle than what those, those systems provide.
• 35:34
  And I'll give you a prime example, and I'm not, not boasting, but
• 35:37
  we went to Salem's in 2019.
• 35:39
  We sat down with Mazda Motorsports and they had their big simulation.
• 35:42
  They were running all weekend.
• 35:43
  And oddly enough, it was at Watkins Glen where we were, and you're behind the
• 35:48
  wheel of a Miata cup car or whatever.
• 35:50
  So there's people getting up there and then they're spitting out.
• 35:52
  You're watching the machine move all over the place, doing all this crazy stuff,
• 35:55
  and they just can't get the hang of it.
• 35:56
  Now, coming from a gaming background and especially a heavy motor sports
• 36:00
  gaming background, like I have, and like Brad has, we sit down in the machine.
• 36:04
  And you kind of just disconnect reality.
• 36:06
  Like you're saying, you're not wearing goggles.
• 36:07
  You have multiple screens and all that.
• 36:09
  But the key was the trick was to be as smooth as possible.
• 36:15
  And that came from driving on the track and knowing the track, knowing Watkins
• 36:19
  gun, like the back of my hand, I knew where the breaking zones were, where the
• 36:22
  turning points were, where I need the apex, where I could get on the throttle.
• 36:25
  And you've noticed that the machine barely moved at all.
• 36:28
  And it wasn't these, these extreme herky jerky situations.
• 36:32
  Again, not boasting.
• 36:33
  I did have the lead time for most of the weekend and the
• 36:36
  guys were like flabbergasted.
• 36:37
  And I'm like, All you got to do is just drive.
• 36:39
  That's all I kept saying is just drive, you know, and, and, and
• 36:43
  get rid of those erratic movements and these big swings and whatnot.
• 36:45
  So I, I, unfortunately I feel like VR is awesome in the sense that
• 36:50
  yeah, first person shooter, I'm throwing a football, I'm playing
• 36:53
  tennis, you know, that kind of thing.
• 36:54
  But when it comes to motorsport, I don't think it's there yet.
• 36:57
  I think it's 20 years behind.
• 36:59
  I would say what you just described though wasn't VR.
• 37:02
  That was just, it was an advanced sim, but that's not, that wasn't VR.
• 37:07
  I mean, we've had this exact conversation for the last like 20 minutes here.
• 37:11
  What you're arguing is just a, an argument of we're not there yet.
• 37:15
  And it's not a question of.
• 37:17
  If, but when it is impossible for you to convince me the tech will not
• 37:22
  eventually reach a point where it is indescribable how close it is between
• 37:28
  what is virtual and what is physical.
• 37:30
  But you're right, these sims and I've also raced in ones just like you said.
• 37:35
  are not like driving a car.
• 37:37
  It is close and it feels cool.
• 37:39
  But if you're a professional racer, close but feels cool is
• 37:42
  not the same as actually racing.
• 37:45
  And so while this current tech you're right is not there.
• 37:49
  And I also agree that racing simulation is probably the hardest
• 37:53
  to do in virtual because you need the physical feedback, not just the
• 37:57
  visual feedback or audio feedback.
• 37:59
  It will take a long time, 20 years.
• 38:02
  Decades is what I think I also said it'll take decades in order for it to catch up
• 38:06
  to how Realistic things are but I mean you mentioned first person shooters.
• 38:12
  Like when I do play that I don't have recoil All right,
• 38:14
  like i'm i'm using controllers.
• 38:16
  I'm not getting the kick of shooting an m16 That's not I would suck at all video
• 38:21
  games if I had my scrawny arms trying to shoot an ak It just wouldn't work.
• 38:25
  Right?
• 38:25
  So It tends to bring everything back to the same question of, are we, are
• 38:30
  we talking about if you think it's plausible for it to be indistinguishable
• 38:35
  between virtual and realistic?
• 38:37
  Or are you just saying it's just, we're taking, we've got
• 38:41
  a long time till we get there?
• 38:43
  I think, I think what I'm trying to do, Tucker, is really dispel
• 38:46
  the notion that a lot of people come to the table with and they're
• 38:49
  like, well those games are so fake!
• 38:52
  They just, they just hold their ground.
• 38:53
  They die on that Hill and they don't really respect where the technology is
• 38:58
  going or where it's come from either.
• 39:00
  Right.
• 39:00
  So I have a, I have a deep respect for virtual motor sports.
• 39:04
  And I just want to, you know, again, highlight the fact that there's a
• 39:07
  lot of compromises going on there.
• 39:08
  There's a lot of things under the hood that people just aren't familiar with.
• 39:12
  And so you have to respect it.
• 39:13
  And I don't want to get on this either, but there was a recent shift
• 39:16
  in the market where I don't know if you're, if you kept up, but when
• 39:19
  project cars It also has to do with Codemasters taking over, uh, Slightly
• 39:25
  Mad Studios and all that kind of stuff.
• 39:26
  And they soften the game, right?
• 39:28
  And one of the things that people complained about the
• 39:30
  most was how difficult PC2 was.
• 39:34
  And then PC3, they tried to make it more like Grid and all this kind of thing.
• 39:38
  And I kind of called that as I saw the merger happening.
• 39:41
  And I'm like, guys, you can't have it all.
• 39:43
  First, you're complaining it's too much one way.
• 39:45
  Then they try to fix it and you say it's too much the other way.
• 39:48
  So again, you gotta take the good with the bad as these systems evolve and probably
• 39:53
  end up merging into one big Forza, Seto Corsa, Project Cars, iRacing monolith.
• 39:59
  Because at the end of the day, if they, if they make them all the
• 40:01
  same, they're just the same game.
• 40:03
  There is always going to be a financial incentive to make things one way or
• 40:08
  the other because of Project Cars was like, ah shit, our game was too hard.
• 40:12
  And people are just generally not as interested in sweating that much
• 40:16
  when they're just trying to race.
• 40:17
  They're going to change it in every single type of video game.
• 40:22
  There will always be a passionate enthusiast that wants to make the most
• 40:26
  realistic one to one example of real life.
• 40:29
  And let me give you an example of what a lot of the early VR games were.
• 40:33
  I remember jumping in to one that I, there was a gun range.
• 40:37
  And let me tell you, I've been to a gun range once.
• 40:40
  I shot a bunch of pistols, tons of fun, but no, I've never shot, reloaded,
• 40:44
  held a, an assault rifle or an AR 15 or anything like that because I play
• 40:49
  video games, I have watched quite a few people reload these and use them.
• 40:54
  So I got into there and I saw the weapons and I was like, I know what to do.
• 40:59
  This is just like a game.
• 41:00
  It's just like real life almost.
• 41:02
  Right?
• 41:02
  Had no problem transitioning into that.
• 41:05
  The person that made that was a gun instructor and a part-time coder, who
• 41:10
  specifically wanted to make something in a safe environment for people to learn
• 41:14
  how to shoot weapons without risk of injury, because accidents do happen and.
• 41:19
  Nobody wants to get hurt.
• 41:21
  And so he was like, if I make this as perfectly realistic as I can, then I
• 41:25
  can mitigate a lot of that risk and we can have people jump in there and learn.
• 41:29
  And so with project cars three, they decided to take the financial route,
• 41:34
  but there are people out there.
• 41:35
  I racing is a great example that see the value in making something
• 41:39
  as close to realistic as possible.
• 41:41
  And if they're the only ones doing it.
• 41:43
  Then they're the ones profiting.
• 41:45
  So it kind of feeds back into itself and, and it, there's still a reason
• 41:49
  for them to spend time making that true to life, realistic, gritty and
• 41:54
  hardcore game, just like you'd want.
• 41:56
  So I think that segues right into our next topic, which is using these games.
• 42:00
  As training tools, right?
• 42:02
  There are some, this has been going on for a long time.
• 42:05
  I think the military really kicked off a lot of it where they were building
• 42:08
  simulations for soldiers to learn, you know, combat tactics and things like that.
• 42:12
  If you really go back into the early days of PC gaming and stuff
• 42:15
  like that, and that has evolved.
• 42:16
  And I think there's.
• 42:17
  An aspect of that in all of e sports.
• 42:20
  So how do you see that working and that changing?
• 42:24
  And, and you talked, touched a little bit on the transition.
• 42:27
  How do you find yourself going from the virtual world back into the analog world?
• 42:32
  Does it translate?
• 42:33
  Wow.
• 42:33
  So good segue.
• 42:34
  I do think that there was an article written on a website called Kotaku
• 42:39
  that was criticizing this game as a violent, trust me, it's not even a game.
• 42:44
  It's a shooting range, right?
• 42:45
  Criticizing this game is too realistic, confusing, violent, not intuitive.
• 42:50
  And then somebody on Reddit went and put my video side by side.
• 42:53
  And it's the guys like, this is just like, I don't understand
• 42:56
  why anybody would want this.
• 42:57
  And I'm like, I see this as a great learning tool.
• 43:00
  This is a way to mitigate risk, whether it's virtual driving school,
• 43:05
  teaching people the rules of the road without any risk to themselves in a
• 43:08
  real environment where there's actual consequences for not checking, you know,
• 43:13
  before you merge into the left lane and you get into an accident, your driver
• 43:16
  instructor is not dead and is like, Hey, that was not something you should do.
• 43:20
  It's hard for me to, to look at that and say, where's the negative?
• 43:23
  I'm, you touched on the military.
• 43:25
  You know, they use PlayStation and Xbox controllers for drone pilots, right?
• 43:30
  These controls are the most intuitive and everyone, not everyone, a lot of the
• 43:34
  people who are in the military did grow up playing with these and using these.
• 43:39
  So not to gamify war or, or anything, but that very much is.
• 43:43
  Something that they do.
• 43:44
  Pilots use Flight sim, which the newest one just came out.
• 43:48
  It's fantastic.
• 43:49
  It is incredible.
• 43:50
  I took off of LAX, by the way, not a trained pilot.
• 43:53
  I know, hard to believe.
• 43:54
  But I took off of LAX in a, uh, 7 47, or no, it was a Dreamliner
• 44:01
  double decker, huge big plane out of, um, one of the side gates.
• 44:04
  'cause I was just like, whatever.
• 44:06
  There's checklists and things you need to do.
• 44:07
  You got to talk to a control tower.
• 44:10
  They have very real comms.
• 44:11
  You can actually be one of the people in control tower and navigate all
• 44:15
  the planes in multiplayer that are trying to very realistically simulate
• 44:19
  the actual flights that are going on.
• 44:22
  Is there not a better way to teach somebody how to fly into an airport or
• 44:26
  fly out of a busy airport or what the protocol is for talking through and
• 44:30
  walking through this than something like that where there are zero chances
• 44:35
  for any negative things to happen.
• 44:36
  There's no danger at all.
• 44:38
  I'm going to put up the, uh, blowed mind emoji here in a second.
• 44:41
  But, uh, so we have a couple of guys in, in GTM that are
• 44:44
  avid flight simulator folks.
• 44:46
  And one of them just got the latest one and he had this harebrained idea
• 44:49
  and we posted some videos of this.
• 44:50
  He goes, I want to learn tracks.
• 44:52
  I've never been to.
• 44:53
  So we took flight simulator and he flew out to see the tracks and see
• 44:57
  the elevation and these things that you can't get from a video because we
• 45:00
  do a lot of video instruction where it's like watch a lap of the track and
• 45:04
  then everything looks flat and then you get there and it's like, well, I'm
• 45:06
  driving off the side of a building.
• 45:08
  You know, that incline is huge.
• 45:10
  So by using flights in, he was able to go out and look at the terrain, see
• 45:14
  what it looked like, learn the track.
• 45:15
  It's a little from a different perspective.
• 45:17
  So again, video games coming into the real world and helping facilitate
• 45:23
  learning in, in, in different ways.
• 45:24
  Or it's something I never thought of.
• 45:26
  And we posted on social media, people were like, Why didn't I think of that?
• 45:29
  And I'm like, well, now you, now you did.
• 45:30
  So have at it, right?
• 45:33
  Right.
• 45:33
  Yeah.
• 45:33
  The topographical maps and data that flight sim uses are scarily close
• 45:39
  to realistic, and you can go in and do your own research on how they
• 45:42
  got flight sim to be so realistic.
• 45:44
  It's, it's incredible.
• 45:45
  Um, so that is a pretty big brain play.
• 45:47
  I, I'm surprised that other people hadn't thought of it.
• 45:50
  Now my favorite is when he was trying to do touch and goes off
• 45:53
  the front straightaway at pit race.
• 45:54
  I thought that was, that was pretty cool.
• 45:56
  But I think one of the things though, that the training tools are
• 45:59
  giving you, we're seeing this more.
• 46:00
  We talked about it in one of our episodes, other episodes, we talked
• 46:03
  about the gentleman driver where he, uh, one of the drivers there, he was
• 46:07
  using iRacing for his simulation.
• 46:09
  So when he would go to tracks overseas, he could learn the track,
• 46:11
  at least know where the corners go, breaking zones, things like that.
• 46:14
  We've seen people like, um, Scott Dixon.
• 46:17
  Yeah.
• 46:17
  So we've seen guys like Scott Dixon.
• 46:19
  Using those reflex machines to speed up, you know, his reaction time, also using
• 46:23
  the simulator to do the same thing, to get in there, you know, and, and, and practice
• 46:27
  the tracks and all that kind of thing.
• 46:29
  But the problem is in a lot of those cases, you don't
• 46:32
  want to do that by yourself.
• 46:33
  Sometimes you want that real challenge.
• 46:35
  You want to be out there with other people, kind of test your limits and
• 46:39
  simulate being out there with other cars and the AI bots as good and as
• 46:43
  smart as they are, they're not as.
• 46:46
  Unpredictable as a human.
• 46:48
  Yeah, exactly.
• 46:49
  Right.
• 46:50
  So that kind of gets into another conversation outside of the teaching
• 46:54
  aspect and the training aspect, which is, I don't want to go online
• 46:57
  and pay with a bunch of 12 year olds and get my ass handed to me.
• 47:01
  I think we grew up.
• 47:03
  With the idea of online etiquette and things like that.
• 47:05
  So how has that changed?
• 47:07
  How has that evolved?
• 47:08
  How do we deal with the nuanced part of that and the nuisance part of esports?
• 47:13
  Fair point that you don't want to go onto a public match like, uh,
• 47:17
  uh, and, and play against some 12 year olds that are actually going to
• 47:20
  ram your car off of a turn, right?
• 47:22
  Like there's no repercussions.
• 47:24
  So there's the bad side of things is like, if you do jump into an multiplayer game.
• 47:29
  Who cares if your car gets wrecked, just load it back up and play a different race.
• 47:32
  And Eric gets enough of that playing with me anyway.
• 47:36
  But let me tell you that just like everything in life, whether it's
• 47:40
  your love for food or your love.
• 47:43
  for books or whatever.
• 47:45
  There are unlimited amounts of groups and communities that you can find that
• 47:51
  will do their best to be as true to your beliefs or as your interest is possible.
• 47:56
  So if you want people that are going to apologize for tapping your
• 48:00
  tire one lap and that's it and it didn't even affect the outcome.
• 48:03
  There are absolutely Facebook or Reddit groups or discord groups
• 48:08
  that will give you that community.
• 48:10
  And that's also kind of the joy of gaming and everything.
• 48:13
  It's just easily accessible.
• 48:15
  You just find the people that are going to behave the way that you want.
• 48:18
  But yes, you have to go and look for them.
• 48:20
  No, it's not going to just show up when you choose multiplayer, right?
• 48:24
  If you go play Forza, it's like going into your rec basketball gym.
• 48:28
  You might get LeBron there today.
• 48:30
  But you're also going to have four geriatric men who don't play basketball.
• 48:34
  Like it's a grab bag because you're truly going in random.
• 48:38
  Some games have a rating system, competitive or otherwise.
• 48:41
  And if you are truly good at that game, read game, not real life.
• 48:46
  If you're truly good at that game, then you will eventually face people
• 48:50
  that take it as seriously as you.
• 48:52
  But you got to go through it and you got to be good at the game.
• 48:55
  Yeah.
• 48:55
  And I mean, we've been very fortunate on our end.
• 48:57
  Like Brad said, in the intro, we've been running a virtual racing lead since 2016,
• 49:01
  primarily focused on Forza just because it was the least common denominator, right?
• 49:06
  It was the system everybody had.
• 49:07
  It's the, it's the one that they accepted.
• 49:09
  It's the, it's the platform or the game that they accepted, et cetera.
• 49:12
  Now the running joke is that our rule book for the VRL is larger
• 49:16
  than most club racing rule books.
• 49:17
  And that probably isn't far off from the truth, but you're racing
• 49:20
  with other real life drivers.
• 49:23
  People that know how to drive.
• 49:25
  And so I will say the caliber of driving is very different.
• 49:28
  And you've seen that embraced by groups like SCCA and NASA and others
• 49:31
  that put on, you know, the pro am races, uh, virtual races, et cetera.
• 49:35
  But I find it interesting though, that even in our world, as polite as
• 49:39
  we are, and we're calling out passes and we're trying to simulate all
• 49:42
  this kind of stuff, there's still an exorbitant amount of modding and
• 49:47
  cheating and downloading of tunes and all this kind of stuff still going on.
• 49:50
  And it's like, yeah.
• 49:51
  You know, I've looked at it over the last couple of years and the
• 49:55
  developers and the publishers have put a lot of time and effort in
• 49:58
  developing these like penalty systems.
• 50:00
  Like you kind of alluded to it.
• 50:02
  There's a ranking system, but there's also now these licensing systems
• 50:05
  and penalty systems to try to like mitigate these issues that are out
• 50:09
  there in the, in the wide open, let's call it the wild west of multiplayer.
• 50:13
  And it's just like, right.
• 50:14
  Can't we just.
• 50:16
  You know, play by the rules.
• 50:17
  And I wish that I could sit here and tell you that I was confident that the
• 50:21
  cheating aspect of any video game would go away, but just like in every single
• 50:26
  professional sport, there's only so much you can do to mitigate the risk
• 50:30
  of somebody not playing by the rules, whether it's taping somebody's practices
• 50:34
  or getting laps in because I'm not well versed in racing, you can go and check the
• 50:38
  physical components of the car, but like.
• 50:41
  What if the driver took a bunch of Adderall before and now he's, like, very
• 50:45
  much tuned in more so than somebody else?
• 50:47
  How much can you do to completely remove external factors?
• 50:52
  And for gaming, there's software, there's penalties for cheating, but
• 50:56
  in any multiplayer game, There are people that will pay for cheats,
• 51:00
  or there are people that just want to see if they can make cheats.
• 51:02
  You will always have somebody who is externally assisted at some level, and
• 51:07
  it may be more prevalent in games like Counter Strike, trust me, I play a lot.
• 51:11
  A lot of cheaters in there just goes to show you that there will be a
• 51:15
  problem in even the highest tiers of competitive gaming, just like Pete
• 51:20
  Rose got banned for throwing games and baseball and betting on stuff, right?
• 51:23
  Like there's only so much you can do.
• 51:25
  And at the very least, you're just happy to see developers trying,
• 51:29
  and that's all I can ask for.
• 51:31
  Yeah, and some of those systems, they are not perfect by any
• 51:34
  stretch of the imagination.
• 51:34
  All of them are not perfect.
• 51:36
  So, I'll give you a prime example.
• 51:37
  We had, we have a rule, it's a clause in our rule book.
• 51:40
  It's known as the Yas Marina Clause.
• 51:42
  And it has to do with the Formula 1 track overseas in Saudi Arabia, I
• 51:46
  believe it is, known as Yas Marina.
• 51:48
  At any rate, you know, they basically leveled a sand parking
• 51:51
  lot and put a track on it.
• 51:53
  There is really no curbing.
• 51:56
  There's no grass areas.
• 51:57
  There's really no, there's a lot of runoff.
• 52:00
  But basically the joke is where it's paved, you're saved.
• 52:03
  So you can pretty much drive anywhere and completely out of
• 52:06
  the bounds of the, of the course.
• 52:07
  Now, Forza, as an example, they took some steps in a later patch of
• 52:11
  Forza seven to institute a penalty system that if you drove so far out
• 52:16
  of bounds, that it would like, you know, add, slow you down, whatever.
• 52:20
  A PC three slows you down, Forza adds time.
• 52:23
  But the problem is.
• 52:25
  Now we've crossed the line where you've defined the edges of the
• 52:28
  track and it's like I need to apex on this curving because that is the
• 52:32
  race line and now it gets in the way.
• 52:34
  So there's like all these give and take and compromise there too.
• 52:37
  But we found that it still doesn't solve the problem.
• 52:40
  Right?
• 52:40
  And the best part was it was the human reaction because
• 52:43
  you've got 12, 15, 20 guys.
• 52:46
  Racing every week.
• 52:47
  And then they come in and go, Oh, so it's those cheating again,
• 52:50
  cut the core, you should see how he takes turn one at the Glen.
• 52:53
  All right, let's turn on the penalty system.
• 52:54
  And then it's like, Oh my God, this is horrible.
• 52:56
  Now I can't turn to the car.
• 52:58
  We'll go where it's supposed to.
• 52:59
  And it's like, well, again, you can't have your cake and eat it too, guys.
• 53:02
  Right.
• 53:02
  So, I mean, we tried our hardest.
• 53:04
  I hope that they finally figured this stuff out, but I wish though that the
• 53:08
  developers, and I'm not saying they need to reach out to us, but they
• 53:11
  would reach out to the racing community and say, what is acceptable margins?
• 53:15
  What is an acceptable penalty?
• 53:17
  How do you deal with this and make it again, more realistic?
• 53:21
  Cause there's so many levels to this at the end of the day.
• 53:23
  So we're probably not going to solve the world's problems.
• 53:25
  We're going to start cheating, but it does bring up another question, which is, do
• 53:30
  you feel that e sports is a replacement for more dangerous traditional sports.
• 53:36
  Do you see certain sports just going away and becoming digital altogether?
• 53:41
  That is a good question because I think you would find people in my community
• 53:46
  who are pretty bullish on the idea that eventually all things will be digital.
• 53:50
  All things will be virtual.
• 53:51
  I also feel In a sense that that will be the case that the main focus because
• 53:56
  it is just at some point due to this, God, I wish I remembered the name
• 53:59
  of the law at some point technology is just so accessible that everyone,
• 54:03
  whether you're in rural Africa or in the middle of New York will have the same
• 54:08
  level, or I guess similar comparable levels of access to a digital sport.
• 54:14
  Yeah, it would be cool for that to happen in my eyes, but no, it
• 54:17
  will never replace physical stuff because you will always have purists.
• 54:21
  I think both of you are purists, right?
• 54:24
  Where you will always say, sorry, I got off on a tangent here, but like, there
• 54:29
  are purists for gas engines, right?
• 54:31
  EVs are coming in and people are like, well, that's not a car,
• 54:34
  like, I need to burn diesel.
• 54:36
  And it's like, it's like, yeah, okay, that's fine.
• 54:39
  There are purists in baseball where people are pissed off that people want to
• 54:43
  replace umpires with a machine that gets it right a hundred percent of the time.
• 54:46
  Like the human aspect is the part of the reason that I watch sports.
• 54:50
  Fine.
• 54:50
  I don't care.
• 54:51
  Right.
• 54:51
  But you will have people replace that.
• 54:53
  You will, you will have people replace the umpire with a machine at some point.
• 54:57
  Maybe the MLB doesn't do it, but does Japan's league do it?
• 55:01
  Do people ultimately enjoy that better?
• 55:03
  At the end of the day, it all comes down to who's making that choice.
• 55:07
  Are you looking to NASCAR to digitize things?
• 55:10
  If they do, it's because that's where the money is.
• 55:12
  It doesn't matter what you care about.
• 55:13
  It's that's where the money is.
• 55:14
  All major sports will just follow the revenue source.
• 55:18
  I do not believe you will have an extinction of any race or any sport
• 55:22
  because ultimately there will always be people like you or me that like
• 55:27
  the human element of sports and will always strive to find the truest
• 55:32
  thing to what we grew up with.
• 55:33
  In your case, it's physical racing on a track.
• 55:36
  And not even just that, but also the danger aspects.
• 55:39
  I mean, people are interested, uh, like talking about NASCAR, a lot of people
• 55:43
  watch the races just for the wrecks and the crashes and the, they're seeing
• 55:47
  these drivers go through the risk and the, and the danger and everything
• 55:50
  that makes it more entertaining.
• 55:52
  I know.
• 55:52
  I tried watching some of these e sports by racing matches that happened during,
• 55:58
  you know, the beginning of COVID.
• 56:00
  And I got about three or four laps in and I was like, okay, I'm done.
• 56:03
  Let's go do something else.
• 56:05
  Right.
• 56:05
  That goes to your desire to watch a sport that has stakes, I guess
• 56:11
  we'll call it one that there are repercussions for doing something wrong.
• 56:16
  And a lot of people that look to this are, are looking at the risk of injury.
• 56:21
  And I think that that's something to look at internally and think maybe you are
• 56:25
  enjoying this because there's an inherent risk of injury, not that that's bad or any
• 56:29
  way, shape or form, but it will Kind of shape your opinion on these replacements
• 56:34
  for the physical risk of injury.
• 56:36
  If I'm racing digitally, I have no financial loss for running into somebody.
• 56:40
  I have no physical loss.
• 56:41
  There is ultimately less stress.
• 56:44
  I believe in doing it digitally, not to say there isn't stress
• 56:47
  and competing at the top level or even forza in your underwear.
• 56:51
  You're not at risk of potentially maiming yourself for the rest of
• 56:54
  your life and That will, whether you like it or not, affect how you play.
• 56:59
  You may aggressively take a turn that you're like, It's a 50 50, I don't know.
• 57:02
  You're not taking a 50 50 unless you're insane.
• 57:05
  You know, like, maybe I crash and die, or maybe I make this turn and I'm incredible.
• 57:09
  Like, that's not the same level of mentality that you're
• 57:12
  gonna get in a digital fort.
• 57:14
  Absolutely, and you know, I'd rather wear the moniker of purist over boomer,
• 57:18
  so I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that.
• 57:20
  But since we're having this conversation, the one thing I do see, at least from
• 57:24
  the motor sports perspective, where virtual could take over certain events.
• 57:28
  And I'm going to give you a prime example and Tucker, you're probably not
• 57:31
  familiar with it, but I know Brad is.
• 57:33
  So the Goodwood festival of speed.
• 57:35
  I am familiar with it.
• 57:36
  Okay.
• 57:36
  So Goodwood is famous for bringing out.
• 57:39
  Very expensive cars, right?
• 57:41
  And so they're cars that aren't just cars anymore.
• 57:44
  They're national treasures.
• 57:45
  They're historic pieces.
• 57:46
  They're museum pieces.
• 57:47
  They're private collection pieces.
• 57:49
  And there's always the off chance that that half a million dollar, million
• 57:52
  dollar, 20 million Ferrari gets wrecked.
• 57:55
  And I could see, you know what?
• 57:56
  It's cool to see it run.
• 57:57
  It's the auditory sensation of it and all that.
• 58:00
  But.
• 58:00
  I would love to go drive that, you know, 57 Ferrari, two 50 GTO at Goodwood
• 58:05
  digitally, because then to your point, I don't have to worry about track insurance.
• 58:09
  I don't have to worry about the physical part of it, breaking it.
• 58:11
  Something as rare as that, having some, some harm brought to it.
• 58:15
  And I can see that in a lot of other aspects where.
• 58:18
  Vintage racing.
• 58:19
  I'm going to categorize it at, be it formula cars, older cars,
• 58:23
  et cetera, where the parts are so scarce that if something does happen,
• 58:28
  irreparable damage right at that point.
• 58:30
  So I could see virtual stepping in and saying, let's fill the gap here
• 58:34
  and put on these really cool races.
• 58:36
  And I would enjoy seeing that, to be honest with you.
• 58:39
  Yeah.
• 58:39
  To Brad's point, I mean, watching, you know, the, the NTT IndyCar series, Do
• 58:44
  laughs at Talladega or wherever oval track that they're going to go to next.
• 58:48
  It was like, okay, sure.
• 58:50
  The IMSA races on the other hand, they're still the most exciting
• 58:52
  thing on TV, digital or otherwise.
• 58:55
  But I think there's a time and a place for all of it, but we have
• 58:57
  to be selective in what it is.
• 58:59
  I'll sit here to the end of time and say, why do people go to football games and
• 59:03
  pay hundreds of dollars when you can just watch it for free air quotes on your TV?
• 59:07
  Like why?
• 59:08
  Well, because it's the experience.
• 59:10
  Yeah.
• 59:10
  I mean, why would you go to Goodwood festival?
• 59:12
  of speed digitally when if you had the exact same opportunity to go in person
• 59:17
  like you're not going to sit in your car and watch it on your phone right
• 59:20
  because you're there you can go experience you can feel the vibrate like it is
• 59:23
  a completely different experience but you have to look again internally and
• 59:28
  think am I Asking right now, is this something that I think we should just
• 59:33
  switch over new digitally, or am I hoping that digital can fill all the holes
• 59:38
  that aren't currently filled in my life?
• 59:40
  Because I hate to tell it to you, man, you're never going to, you're
• 59:43
  never going to get to race a Pagani unless something crazy happens.
• 59:46
  It's just not going to happen.
• 59:47
  I'm not going to either, but if you get to a point where it is pretty damn
• 59:51
  good and it feels good and you get that same sensation, where's the negative in
• 59:55
  racing a Pagani, where is it digitally?
• 59:57
  And again.
• 59:59
  It's not if it is when it might not happen in your lifetime
• 1:00:02
  or it will happen in mine.
• 1:00:04
  But, um, I'm sorry.
• 1:00:08
  It was so easy there.
• 1:00:09
  Can we kick him off now?
• 1:00:10
  Can we just, but, but I mean, it will happen where I will, and you, you also
• 1:00:18
  probably will experience this crossover where it is indistinguishable and then.
• 1:00:22
  That's a win for everyone.
• 1:00:24
  I too want to race a Shelby or hell, even like a 1928 Ford.
• 1:00:29
  What happens if you LZ swap that?
• 1:00:31
  Or like, you know, what happens?
• 1:00:33
  And it opens up these crazy ideas where you're not just confined.
• 1:00:36
  You're not just limited by reality at this point.
• 1:00:39
  Or your bank account or your insurance.
• 1:00:42
  What do you want?
• 1:00:42
  You're not limited by anything.
• 1:00:43
  Fuck it.
• 1:00:44
  Just do it.
• 1:00:45
  It's it's incredible.
• 1:00:46
  Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  Just send it.
• 1:00:47
  And I will say that I use Forza horizon as a car shopping tool.
• 1:00:52
  Every time I get in my head, Oh my God, I'm interested in buying this car.
• 1:00:56
  I will go to horizon, buy it and drive it around.
• 1:00:59
  I was like.
• 1:01:00
  I'm tired of looking at it now.
• 1:01:01
  Let's see what else is out there.
• 1:01:03
  Uh, yeah.
• 1:01:03
  And I did, and you did mention Eric about the idea of Forza in putting penalties
• 1:01:10
  and making these choices for you guys and why don't they talk to the racers,
• 1:01:13
  but you took the most commercially successful average video game.
• 1:01:17
  Look, I do not go in and change my tire pressure.
• 1:01:20
  I just don't.
• 1:01:21
  I download somebody else's schematic.
• 1:01:23
  And I'm like, I trust this high rated drift schematic, and
• 1:01:26
  then I go fucking drift, right?
• 1:01:27
  Like, that is the extent of my enjoyment.
• 1:01:29
  I like it.
• 1:01:30
  But there are the tools for both of you to go in there and make those adjustments.
• 1:01:34
  But we can't look at fours as the bastion of, of real realism, right?
• 1:01:38
  They're going to make as much money as they can.
• 1:01:40
  I do have to add though, at six foot four, Brad lives out his fantasy and
• 1:01:44
  fitting in many cars through Verizon.
• 1:01:46
  So, yeah, I mean, Hey, that's true too.
• 1:01:50
  And I'm glad that you get to do that because I'd be lying if I said I
• 1:01:53
  also didn't, you know, live out my fantasies of driving expensive cars
• 1:01:58
  or even doing my own vehicle shopping.
• 1:02:00
  I'm not going to buy a Maserati Gran Turismo.
• 1:02:02
  A car sucks, but it sounds really good and I love driving it in Forza,
• 1:02:06
  even though it's not a race car, you know, it's whatever, like that is my
• 1:02:09
  enjoyment and that's where it will stay.
• 1:02:12
  In the recesses of my mind and in a shop somewhere, we talked about
• 1:02:16
  the safety of the digital world.
• 1:02:17
  You know, there is no physical aspect to it.
• 1:02:21
  You know, the harm, you know, crashing cars, not a big deal, but there's
• 1:02:24
  actually a side to e sports that we need to take into consideration, which is
• 1:02:28
  actually a health and safety concern.
• 1:02:30
  So I wanted to touch on some of those topics there as people, you know, maybe
• 1:02:34
  investing more time in e sports because of COVID or maybe starting to get into it,
• 1:02:38
  some things that they should be aware of.
• 1:02:41
  As they embark on this journey, you know, we talk a lot about safety
• 1:02:45
  in the real motorsports world.
• 1:02:46
  And so this is obviously a carryover into digital where again, we're
• 1:02:50
  seeing the blurring of lines.
• 1:02:51
  We're seeing the blending.
• 1:02:52
  So I think there's additional concerns we need to take into
• 1:02:55
  consideration when we're racing.
• 1:02:58
  digital world.
• 1:02:59
  So we've g and wrist injuries due to So I have, um, God, ther like something
• 1:03:06
  gardener t My right hand, which I us tendon for my thumb is ro Let me be
• 1:03:14
  clear in saying is a real thing and it wi anyone that is doing this of time.
• 1:03:20
  But I have for t years of my life.
• 1:03:24
  And this Live.
• 1:03:26
  But I mean, for virtually my whole life, I've been using and gaming
• 1:03:30
  on a computer or on a controller for upwards of a full time job.
• 1:03:35
  I mean, it is my full time job for the last 11 years.
• 1:03:38
  I've been doing this.
• 1:03:39
  For 160 hours a month.
• 1:03:40
  And that is as much time as you guys are doing whatever else you're doing,
• 1:03:44
  but I'm doing it keyboard mouse.
• 1:03:46
  There are things you can do to mitigate this, right?
• 1:03:48
  I think that there's a million videos on YouTube where you can get gamer specific
• 1:03:53
  stretches that help mitigate the risk of carpal tunnel or eventually you
• 1:03:58
  know, hindering your range of motion.
• 1:04:00
  This is an important thing, not just for casual people, but it's important,
• 1:04:04
  especially for professionals.
• 1:04:06
  I mean, whether you're playing counter strike at a professional level or,
• 1:04:09
  or racing, if your job is to play video games, then you're cognizant of
• 1:04:14
  the dangers that it may pose to you.
• 1:04:16
  So whether you're looking at the potential long lasting injuries, in
• 1:04:20
  basketball with your knees or Tommy John surgery for baseball players.
• 1:04:24
  That is something that is on the forefront of most professional gamers is
• 1:04:28
  how do I make sure that I am not going to hinder my ability to do my job and
• 1:04:32
  do it at the level that is required.
• 1:04:34
  And collapsed lung due to poor posture.
• 1:04:36
  That is terrifying.
• 1:04:37
  I've never heard that.
• 1:04:38
  You just put a new fear in my life.
• 1:04:39
  And, you know, I have a lot of ideas on what the best posture is for
• 1:04:43
  gaming, but it is typical that most people sit forward, lean forward.
• 1:04:47
  And, um, yeah, I mean, when you're playing on console, whether you like
• 1:04:51
  it or not, you have a worse posture.
• 1:04:53
  Most people who play console games are sitting on their couch.
• 1:04:56
  The couch is not good for you, right?
• 1:04:57
  It is a comfortable place, but it is not a supportive place.
• 1:05:01
  Most of the time you might be leaning forward.
• 1:05:03
  You get into that engaged motion.
• 1:05:05
  It's not good for your back.
• 1:05:06
  PC elitism here.
• 1:05:08
  I'm in a Herman Miller chair, ergonomically made for, you know, the
• 1:05:11
  best of office workers, and I sit with as good posture as I possibly can.
• 1:05:16
  It is better in every way, shape, and form on the computer because
• 1:05:20
  that's what it's made for.
• 1:05:22
  And so you can do that in gaming.
• 1:05:23
  You can still sit in a nice ergonomic chair, but most people aren't going to do
• 1:05:27
  that when they're sitting on their couch in their comfy place, playing video games.
• 1:05:30
  So collapse lung never heard of anybody who's had that, but poor posture, back
• 1:05:35
  problems, spinal problems, all very real, very dangerous in the longterm.
• 1:05:40
  And even like with your neck too, there's something we call gamer neck where, you
• 1:05:43
  know, you've been sitting like this and then eventually over time or office worker
• 1:05:47
  neck, eventually over time, your head's tilted down and it becomes that way.
• 1:05:51
  So that more so than anything, your posture, your spine.
• 1:05:55
  That's more important and also very much a real problem.
• 1:05:58
  And um, that's just, that's, I think that's just nature.
• 1:06:01
  Everybody's office workers have been dealing with that for decades
• 1:06:04
  and you alluded to earlier jokingly about performance enhancing drugs.
• 1:06:08
  And that's a real thing in e sports.
• 1:06:10
  I think it's a real thing in anything.
• 1:06:12
  One, you get tested in one of these things in the olympics for alcohol
• 1:06:16
  because when you're shooting, Alcohol is a performance enhancing drug to
• 1:06:20
  slow your breathing, slow your heart rate, slow your nerves, less shaking.
• 1:06:24
  Like there will always be some sort of performance enhancing drug in
• 1:06:28
  real sports, in digital sports.
• 1:06:30
  I mean, office work, there's performance enhancing drugs.
• 1:06:33
  What is coffee if not a performance enhancing drug?
• 1:06:36
  So Adderall is obviously the one that everybody brings up.
• 1:06:38
  It is.
• 1:06:39
  I have never tried Adderall, but the way people explain it
• 1:06:43
  sounds like a limitless pill.
• 1:06:44
  Maybe I'll get on that someday and become better at gaming, but
• 1:06:47
  um, not, not at the forefront.
• 1:06:49
  There is very limited amounts of regulation for this.
• 1:06:52
  Nobody's getting drug tested for Adderall before they play competitive
• 1:06:56
  video games because yes, it is mentally something that is very much
• 1:07:00
  a stimulant and can help you focus.
• 1:07:02
  But I believe that we're not at a point where Adderall can be equated to
• 1:07:06
  taking growth hormones and being truly and measurably physically more potent
• 1:07:13
  than your opponents could ever be.
• 1:07:15
  And I think that that's an argument everybody could weigh in on whether it's
• 1:07:18
  um, you believe that mental stimulants are equal to physical stimulants or if
• 1:07:23
  stimulants at all are something that are going to change the trajectory enough
• 1:07:28
  where it is something worth regulating.
• 1:07:30
  But I don't think at its current state, e sports has enough.
• 1:07:33
  money in it or enough regulations in it to stop people from air quotes abusing
• 1:07:41
  Adderall, which is to my knowledge, the only thing anybody could ever take
• 1:07:44
  to make them better at video games.
• 1:07:46
  But even then, that's just a focus enhancement and not necessarily one
• 1:07:50
  that's going to help you physically.
• 1:07:52
  So that's just an argument on whether you think that mental
• 1:07:54
  stimulants and performance enhancing drugs are equal to physical ones.
• 1:07:58
  Yeah, you bring up a good point because, you know, we're talking
• 1:08:01
  about the mental state, right?
• 1:08:03
  And that's as important as the reflexes are.
• 1:08:05
  But once you've pushed yourself past a limit there, you start to
• 1:08:10
  get into mental fatigue and burnout.
• 1:08:12
  So how do you compensate for that?
• 1:08:14
  Everybody's going to go through burnout in my industry.
• 1:08:17
  It is a, I don't want to sit here and tell anyone that, you know, I'm
• 1:08:21
  sure a lot of people are like, man, you play video games for eight hours,
• 1:08:23
  six hours a day, seven days a week.
• 1:08:25
  I mean, I, today I have to take today off specifically
• 1:08:28
  because I'm finishing a move in.
• 1:08:30
  This is the first day that I've taken off willingly since March.
• 1:08:34
  I have streamed, played video games.
• 1:08:36
  I've been live and entertaining every day for six hours, minimum a day.
• 1:08:40
  Since March.
• 1:08:41
  I mean, I don't get weekends off.
• 1:08:42
  I like burnout is a thing that will happen in my industry as much as it is a
• 1:08:47
  thing that will happen in literally any industry that you spend a normal amount.
• 1:08:51
  I mean, 60 hours a week doing the same thing.
• 1:08:53
  It just will happen.
• 1:08:55
  And so with gaming, I just need to make it clear that if you are doing it as a
• 1:09:01
  fun enjoyment, as a way to escape from whatever you're doing, and you're not
• 1:09:05
  doing it as a full time job, I don't think that burnout's a real thing for you.
• 1:09:09
  I think that you may get tired.
• 1:09:11
  I think that if you're expending yourself past the normal limit, just
• 1:09:14
  like playing basketball, like, after the seventh game, you're just tired.
• 1:09:18
  Doesn't mean you're not enjoying it, but you're not peak performance.
• 1:09:21
  So you have to look at why you're playing then.
• 1:09:23
  Are you playing For the seventh hour.
• 1:09:26
  Are you racing for the seventh hour because you're trying to compete in
• 1:09:28
  something or are you doing it just because you want to, and if you're
• 1:09:31
  trying to compete, then of course you've burnt out of your prime that is burnout.
• 1:09:35
  I mean, there's always the, the attempt to do the 24 hours
• 1:09:38
  Lamont's in real time, right?
• 1:09:39
  So, you know, but that being said, you know, I think there's two
• 1:09:43
  more pieces that go with that.
• 1:09:44
  One of them is, do you recommend.
• 1:09:47
  the gaming glasses to help protect your eyes because that's also part of this
• 1:09:50
  equation blue light filter glasses so i actually it's hilarious because when
• 1:09:55
  i was uh in high school i was wearing those as a regular thing and i think i
• 1:09:59
  i mean i never wore them to school but jessica was uh very much saw some photos
• 1:10:03
  of me and i was like what are you wearing Blue light filter glasses for, and I'm
• 1:10:07
  like, well, I stare at the screen a lot.
• 1:10:08
  I don't wear blue light filter glasses anymore.
• 1:10:11
  That's not to say that they don't help.
• 1:10:12
  I think that there are scientific evidence that shows that blue light
• 1:10:16
  that you are getting from your screens is a damaging and in a factor in how
• 1:10:22
  well you sleep at night or how well you're able to transition from at
• 1:10:25
  the computer to in the bed mentally.
• 1:10:28
  I don't think there's a downside to wearing them, but you also
• 1:10:31
  can get them for like 19.
• 1:10:32
  And they really aren't a.
• 1:10:35
  essential thing like maybe like a football helmet is, right?
• 1:10:39
  Like not wearing them will not kill you.
• 1:10:41
  I don't know.
• 1:10:42
  I, we don't know about that yet.
• 1:10:43
  Maybe blue light does kill you, but it's, it's not a, an essential thing.
• 1:10:47
  Does it help?
• 1:10:47
  Yes.
• 1:10:48
  Is it a requirement?
• 1:10:49
  Absolutely not.
• 1:10:50
  I would put literally everything above it, like getting up and walking,
• 1:10:54
  you know, a little bit every hour.
• 1:10:56
  It's way more important.
• 1:10:57
  And I think that's a great segue because nutrition, poor nutrition, lack of
• 1:11:03
  exercise is probably the last, but yet the most important part of all of this.
• 1:11:08
  So what is your regimen?
• 1:11:09
  Cause you are doing this all the time.
• 1:11:11
  How do you break up your day?
• 1:11:12
  What advice would you give somebody?
• 1:11:13
  This is great because I think there is a lot of mental images that come forth.
• 1:11:17
  When you talk to somebody about like being a professional gamer,
• 1:11:21
  a lot of older people will think of the, overweight, unclean,
• 1:11:25
  unshaven dude who's just South Park.
• 1:11:28
  Yeah, South Park.
• 1:11:29
  Exactly right.
• 1:11:30
  That guy.
• 1:11:30
  And let's not to say that that doesn't exist.
• 1:11:32
  Every stereotype comes a little bit from a place of truth in some way.
• 1:11:36
  It is definitely not the majority here as we see gaming become More mainstream.
• 1:11:41
  I think that if you went to Twitch or to YouTube and you look for somebody
• 1:11:46
  who was a professional gamer, the vast majority take working out in personal
• 1:11:52
  health as equally, if not more important as anything else, because if you're
• 1:11:56
  trying to perform at a competitive level.
• 1:11:58
  All of that plays into how well you're able to do it.
• 1:12:00
  Your mental strength, your physical ability to be in the moment and
• 1:12:05
  perform at the highest level.
• 1:12:06
  All of that gets hindered.
• 1:12:07
  If you're not in shape, if you're eating poorly, if you're not exercising.
• 1:12:12
  So for me, I get up at seven 30 every morning, which I think is pretty early,
• 1:12:17
  but for most, I make my own schedule.
• 1:12:19
  if I wanted, but I get up at seven 30 every morning and I, uh, I, I do my work.
• 1:12:25
  I have a hour long break for lunch at 11.
• 1:12:28
  I stream from one till seven, and then I go for a two and a half mile run.
• 1:12:32
  Uh, at seven, I do some, the gym is no longer a thing here
• 1:12:37
  in Los Angeles, unfortunately, so I have free weights at home.
• 1:12:40
  I get a nice hour long workout in and I try and eat as healthy as possible.
• 1:12:44
  That diet is a Fig Newton's monster and gummy bears, right?
• 1:12:48
  I am sponsored by monster.
• 1:12:49
  So I do, I do drink some monster.
• 1:12:51
  I've been very cognizant of my health, given how much of my life is
• 1:12:55
  spent at a desk and playing games.
• 1:12:58
  For a long time, I have a standing desk, so I'll answer emails standing.
• 1:13:02
  I eat as healthy as possible.
• 1:13:04
  I've never been overweight and I am very much in the best
• 1:13:07
  shape of my life right now.
• 1:13:08
  The only thing I will say is that I drink so much, especially in the last week.
• 1:13:12
  It's been quite a stressful week in the election.
• 1:13:14
  So, I mean, I mean, I consumed quite a bit of alcohol and
• 1:13:18
  that is the one thing it is.
• 1:13:19
  Difficult to cut out when you're sitting in caffeine, too.
• 1:13:22
  When you're sitting here playing games with your friends.
• 1:13:24
  I mean, it's a communal experience for all of us.
• 1:13:26
  And you guys talk to it because you have this racing link.
• 1:13:29
  You look forward to it.
• 1:13:30
  Just like somebody would look forward to book club or the rec basketball league.
• 1:13:34
  It's a communal thing.
• 1:13:35
  And man, if there's one thing gamers do, it's it's drink.
• 1:13:38
  You love to drink with your friends.
• 1:13:39
  You love to hang out with your friends.
• 1:13:40
  And and so I think that most gamers, though, are very much involved with their
• 1:13:45
  personal health and it is seen as a cool facet of being a nerd here to be also one
• 1:13:51
  that defies the traditional stereotype.
• 1:13:53
  It's almost like a counterculture, a rare counterculture that is beneficial
• 1:13:58
  to everyone, you know, who doesn't want healthy people out there.
• 1:14:01
  So as we kind of transition into closing here, I have a couple extra questions.
• 1:14:06
  Do you have any tips for becoming a better gamer?
• 1:14:08
  Things you could just tell some guys that, you know, kind of
• 1:14:10
  really up their, up their game?
• 1:14:12
  I, I think that just like everything in life, practice makes perfect
• 1:14:15
  and the only way you're going to improve on anything is practice.
• 1:14:19
  I could sit here and tell you like you should go online and
• 1:14:22
  do, uh, reaction training, right?
• 1:14:25
  They have that on, on your browser where you're sitting there waiting for it to go
• 1:14:28
  green and you click as fast as you can.
• 1:14:29
  And you're like, ah, I got 0.
• 1:14:31
  2 milliseconds or 0.
• 1:14:31
  2 seconds.
• 1:14:32
  I got to get that better.
• 1:14:34
  That's training.
• 1:14:34
  That's fine.
• 1:14:35
  That's so unnecessary.
• 1:14:36
  Unless you are actually trying to compete at the highest level, just like.
• 1:14:40
  You were a casual football fan.
• 1:14:42
  How do you get better at throwing passes?
• 1:14:44
  We'll go out into the yard and throw some passes, right?
• 1:14:47
  You don't have to be going into a training studio and doing like ball
• 1:14:51
  drills, just go throw the ball.
• 1:14:53
  So it's as much as you want to put in, you're going to get out.
• 1:14:56
  If you want to be a better gamer, then you have to put in more time,
• 1:15:00
  uh, and more effort to become more familiar with controls and become more
• 1:15:04
  familiar with the track you're in.
• 1:15:05
  There's no secret.
• 1:15:06
  It.
• 1:15:07
  answer to this that you already don't know.
• 1:15:09
  And there's no schools out there either, so you just got to do it, right?
• 1:15:13
  There are avenues to hire people to train you, and those do exist and
• 1:15:18
  are very lucrative businesses for a lot of professionals in games like
• 1:15:21
  League of Legends or Counter Strike, because a lot of that knowledge is
• 1:15:25
  knowledge that you have to learn.
• 1:15:26
  Like, how do I do this?
• 1:15:27
  And where do I learn how to do this?
• 1:15:29
  You could go on YouTube and learn too.
• 1:15:31
  But Um, I think for racing specifically, yeah, you can take driving instructions
• 1:15:36
  all you want, but like, you also just need to get in there and do it yourself.
• 1:15:40
  That's the best way to learn anything.
• 1:15:42
  All right.
• 1:15:42
  Let's settle the debate.
• 1:15:44
  Gran Turismo or Forza.
• 1:15:46
  Forza.
• 1:15:46
  I like Forza so much more.
• 1:15:48
  All right.
• 1:15:48
  Listen.
• 1:15:49
  It is, it is a, Gran Turismo has always to me been the more realistic and
• 1:15:53
  simulator version, but Forza Horizon is right where I love, I mean Need
• 1:15:58
  for Speed is where I love my shit, and this is where video games excel.
• 1:16:00
  I want to feel like the most badass racer on the road.
• 1:16:03
  Even if I'm racing against better people, I still want to, I still want to drift
• 1:16:07
  and then, and, and feel good about it.
• 1:16:09
  And so Forza, allows all walks of life to kind of get in there, whether
• 1:16:14
  you're driving on full assist and breaking and you can see, you know,
• 1:16:18
  lines on the road that are optimal.
• 1:16:21
  All of that is fine and you can turn all those assists off and still
• 1:16:24
  get a relatively good experience.
• 1:16:26
  So I think that it is a little more beginner friendly.
• 1:16:28
  and overall a more enjoyable experience at Gran Turismo.
• 1:16:32
  And it doesn't take 10 years for a new version to come out.
• 1:16:34
  That is also true.
• 1:16:36
  We get one like every two years.
• 1:16:37
  It's great.
• 1:16:38
  So, and on top of that, so we have this thing called the three car garage, but
• 1:16:42
  I'm going to modify it for this particular episode and say Is it street parking?
• 1:16:46
  Because that's what I have.
• 1:16:49
  No, we're, the idea of the three car garage is any three cars in your garage
• 1:16:53
  that you have the rest of your life.
• 1:16:54
  So I'm going to change this for this particular episode and say, it's the
• 1:16:59
  bookshelf and what three video game titles would be on your bookshelf.
• 1:17:03
  This is past, present, or future.
• 1:17:05
  Okay.
• 1:17:06
  Let me, I'm going to answer both of these.
• 1:17:07
  Cause I do want to tell you my three cars I could have my garage.
• 1:17:10
  I think for the game side need for speed underground two was a
• 1:17:14
  game that really did a lot for me.
• 1:17:17
  So cartoony.
• 1:17:18
  I mean, you literally spent time to mod out and escalate and then
• 1:17:22
  you could go in and drift it.
• 1:17:23
  Loved it.
• 1:17:24
  Need for Speed, Most Wanted was the game that I played the most of and
• 1:17:28
  really fell in love with the BMW M3, fell in love with the Mitsubishi Lancer,
• 1:17:33
  and ended up, that kind of spurred my love for cars into a new world.
• 1:17:37
  And then Forza, I guess the general series, but I don't have
• 1:17:41
  a specific favorite Forza, they're all just good in their own.
• 1:17:44
  Right.
• 1:17:45
  I think I would put whatever the next Forza game up there, just
• 1:17:48
  because it does allow me to test drive these cars and get as realistic
• 1:17:53
  as, as experienced as I personally want, I don't care about iRacing.
• 1:17:56
  I just.
• 1:17:57
  Make me feel good about myself.
• 1:17:58
  Pat me on the back.
• 1:17:59
  Give me the award for like you did good buddy.
• 1:18:01
  I don't care about realism.
• 1:18:02
  And then for, for physical cars, I do idolize the original untuned Supra.
• 1:18:07
  I think that the, the Supra holds a special place in my
• 1:18:10
  heart from fast and furious and a lot of others in the same vein.
• 1:18:14
  I also would love a Mercedes SLS.
• 1:18:18
  I think that that car is so gorgeous and I.
• 1:18:23
  Asked Mercedes one time on Twitter to send me one and they sent me a model of it.
• 1:18:27
  I have it somewhere in my boxes and I was so like, we got you.
• 1:18:30
  And I was like, well, surely you don't send it.
• 1:18:32
  And then, um, I guess in the, I guess, man, well, I, I guess I would
• 1:18:37
  really enjoy some form of Koenigsegg.
• 1:18:40
  I think that their cars kind of really mold.
• 1:18:43
  The, the, the, or kind of cross the line between performance
• 1:18:47
  and beauty, beauty and luxury.
• 1:18:49
  And I love what they're doing over there.
• 1:18:51
  And also their founders, I would have a beer with him out of all the founders.
• 1:18:54
  Like he seems like a cool guy.
• 1:18:56
  So those, one of those three.
• 1:18:58
  So if you had to pick one video game out of all the ones you've
• 1:19:02
  known, you've experienced.
• 1:19:03
  Right.
• 1:19:03
  And it doesn't have to be racing.
• 1:19:05
  This could be in any genre.
• 1:19:06
  If it was only one and you're like, man, I'm going to play this game.
• 1:19:09
  This is it forever.
• 1:19:10
  What is it?
• 1:19:13
  I'd have to say it would be Counter Strike or RuneScape.
• 1:19:15
  RuneScape is a very dated game, but still exists, and I'll let
• 1:19:21
  anybody who knows about that chime in, because it's kind of niche, but
• 1:19:25
  Counter Strike is arguably the oldest.
• 1:19:28
  Um, and most prolific first person shooter, people were playing it on
• 1:19:32
  like old Pentiums back in the day, and um, and for me, that's where I
• 1:19:36
  spend most of my time, and most of my content comes from it, so, I just
• 1:19:40
  love playing Counter Strike and just getting on, talking to some random
• 1:19:43
  person in somewhere, Trying to compete and also it is, it gets pretty crazy.
• 1:19:48
  It's, it's funny because communication is key in that game.
• 1:19:50
  So everyone has a microphone and they all have something to say.
• 1:19:53
  And sometimes it's good.
• 1:19:54
  A lot of times it's bad, but it's always entertaining.
• 1:19:57
  I went into the three non racing.
• 1:19:58
  Oh, the three non racing games.
• 1:20:00
  Yeah.
• 1:20:00
  I'd put call of duty four on there.
• 1:20:01
  It got my career started even though call of duty was the
• 1:20:04
  first game I bought on a console.
• 1:20:07
  Because my mom, I guess I was like 13 at the time, my mom, very
• 1:20:10
  anti violence, was like, no, you can't go and buy Grand Theft Auto.
• 1:20:14
  And I was like, mom, this is a World War II video game.
• 1:20:18
  It's historic.
• 1:20:19
  And it said on the back, like, go through the battles of
• 1:20:21
  Normandy and all that stuff.
• 1:20:22
  I remember she walked up to the counter at Blockbuster, and she
• 1:20:25
  was like, she asked that clerk.
• 1:20:27
  She was like, hey, is this a historic game?
• 1:20:29
  And that man looked at me and I looked at him and he said,
• 1:20:31
  yeah, it's a historic game.
• 1:20:32
  And you know, you go, you fight on Normandy and my mom's like, all
• 1:20:35
  right, historic violence is good.
• 1:20:36
  You're good to go.
• 1:20:37
  Oh, it was so good.
• 1:20:39
  So yeah, call of duty, the franchise, but call of duty four, I would put on there,
• 1:20:42
  I would put runescape on there because I actually wrote my college paper about it.
• 1:20:45
  And I think your wife probably read that paper and gave me some
• 1:20:48
  criticism or feedback on it.
• 1:20:50
  You wouldn't have gotten away with no criticism on anything.
• 1:20:54
  I know.
• 1:20:55
  Yes.
• 1:20:55
  Even, even, I mean, I just moved to my new place and she was
• 1:20:58
  criticizing all of the things.
• 1:20:59
  I was like, I haven't even stepped foot in here yet, but okay.
• 1:21:02
  I mean, that's why she's our master editor over here at GTN.
• 1:21:06
  It's got to pass muster.
• 1:21:08
  Yeah.
• 1:21:08
  If it passes Jessica, you're good to go.
• 1:21:10
  And then I think my third game would be need for speed.
• 1:21:13
  Most wanted because it did shape.
• 1:21:15
  I mean, not just cars in general, but I spent so much time playing
• 1:21:18
  and replaying that And it's a shame how bad that franchise is now.
• 1:21:22
  Shame on you, Criterion.
• 1:21:23
  You ruined it.
• 1:21:24
  I'm so mad.
• 1:21:25
  Is there anything you want to plug or mention or thank
• 1:21:28
  sponsors or anything like that?
• 1:21:29
  I highly doubt that many of your audience are itching to watch
• 1:21:33
  me play whatever I am playing.
• 1:21:35
  I play quite a few games.
• 1:21:36
  But I do implore you guys to check out the world of Twitch.
• 1:21:39
  I promise you that just like on YouTube, you can find niche channels that you love,
• 1:21:44
  whether it's the, you know, smoking tire or like regular car reviews or whomever.
• 1:21:49
  There is an equal amount of interesting content on Twitch.
• 1:21:53
  Go on there and search for whatever game you care about, or just scroll through
• 1:21:58
  and I promise you'll find someone.
• 1:22:00
  Because eventually your kids or whomever will absolutely be on there spending
• 1:22:04
  time and it will definitely help transition you from what the hell is this
• 1:22:08
  to being a little bit more caught up.
• 1:22:11
  Also it's free.
• 1:22:12
  So like that's kind of nice too.
• 1:22:13
  It's not, there's no barrier for entry.
• 1:22:15
  Thanks for having me on, man.
• 1:22:16
  I appreciate it.
• 1:22:17
  And, uh, at some point in time when I'm back in Maryland, I'll have to
• 1:22:20
  go to the track once it's open again.
• 1:22:22
  Absolutely.
• 1:22:23
  My, my, my, my seats are always open left or right.
• 1:22:27
  There's a crossover I'd like to see.
• 1:22:29
  Yeah.
• 1:22:29
  No kidding.
• 1:22:30
  Yeah.
• 1:22:30
  So, but Tucker, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show.
• 1:22:33
  This has been super educational.
• 1:22:34
  Hopefully our Purist fans.
• 1:22:37
  I'm not going to call them.
• 1:22:38
  Oh, I was going to say, I mean, look, there's not a single argument that I have
• 1:22:44
  not already heard through my decade of playing video games and talking to people.
• 1:22:47
  So I hope that it sparks a lively conversation on
• 1:22:50
  both sides and that people.
• 1:22:51
  At the very least are more engaged and knowledgeable about
• 1:22:54
  my world and ultimately where their world will be going.
• 1:22:58
  It is inevitable.
• 1:22:59
  Absolutely.
• 1:23:00
  All your bases are belong to us, but that being said, I cannot thank
• 1:23:04
  you enough for coming on the show.
• 1:23:05
  I think it's been enlightening.
• 1:23:06
  I think it gives a whole different perspective on the world of motor
• 1:23:08
  sports and probably a corner of motor sports that a lot of people don't
• 1:23:12
  think about and virtual racing guys.
• 1:23:14
  Is not just for kids, right?
• 1:23:16
  So something to consider, especially here in the winter months.
• 1:23:19
  So if you want to learn more about that, uh, you can reach out
• 1:23:22
  to Tucker on Twitch, or you can reach out to us at gtmotorsports.
• 1:23:25
  org and inquire about our latest series in our virtual racing league.
• 1:23:29
  So again, Tucker, thank you so much.
• 1:23:31
  Thank you for having me guys.
• 1:23:32
  I appreciate it.
• 1:23:33
  All right.
• 1:23:33
  Thanks.
• 1:23:38
  If you like what you've heard and want to learn more about GTM,
• 1:23:41
  be sure to check us out on www.
• 1:23:45
  gtmotorsports.
• 1:23:45
  org.
• 1:23:45
  You can also find us on Instagram at grandtorymotorsports.
• 1:23:49
  Also, if you want to get involved or have suggestions for future shows, You can call
• 1:23:53
  or text us at 202 630 1770, or send us an email at crewchief at gtmotorsports.
• 1:24:01
  org.
• 1:24:01
  We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:24:02
  Hey listeners, Crew Chief Eric here.
• 1:24:04
  Do you like what you've seen, heard, and read from GTM?
• 1:24:08
  Great, so do we, and we have a lot of fun doing it.
• 1:24:10
  But please remember, we're fueled by volunteers and remain a no annual
• 1:24:14
  fee organization, but we still need help to keep the momentum going.
• 1:24:18
  So that we can continue to record, write, edit, and broadcast
• 1:24:21
  all of your favorite content.
• 1:24:22
  So be sure to visit www.
• 1:24:24
  patreon.
• 1:24:25
  com forward slash gtmotorsports or visit our website and click in the
• 1:24:30
  top right corner on the support and donate to learn how you can help.