Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of The Sea Devils (2/6)

Transcript

Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of The Sea Devils (2/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. Hamster with a blunt.
• 0:34
  Pen Knife for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
• 0:40
  Welcome back to our hamster with a blunt pen knife, the Doctor
• 0:43
  Who Commentary podcast. Jason, how's that mouthful of
• 0:49
  crisps that you just had? It's like, don't breast play?
• 0:53
  Yeah, I've got a mouthful of Pringles.
• 0:55
  Very nice. Thank you, Joe.
• 0:57
  Thank you for lowering the tone in the opening opening 20
• 1:00
  seconds of the recording. So, so welcome and and you'll
• 1:04
  never be disappointed in that respect.
• 1:06
  No, I know. I knew what I was getting into
• 1:08
  when I came over here, so. I'm going to ask you a question
• 1:13
  about the length of Doctor Who stories.
• 1:16
  It's a question I've I've thrown out to quite a few people, but,
• 1:19
  well, you and I have done the the longest Doctor Who story.
• 1:23
  I don't think it was relevant there because that story had to
• 1:26
  mutate in various ways to sustain that length.
• 1:32
  Is there an ideal length of a classic Doctor Who story?
• 1:35
  Well. That's a difficult question
• 1:40
  because I mean, give or take a few exceptions, they're
• 1:45
  generally four or six parts. Yeah, I'm basically asking which
• 1:49
  is your preference. The thing is, when I think I've
• 1:53
  said this, when we were doing Master Plan and possibly when we
• 1:56
  were doing Power as well, when they're done well, I can really
• 2:00
  enjoy a six episode story. And there are some four episode
• 2:03
  stories that I think, God, you're making this drag out a
• 2:06
  lot. You put the plot on pause for
• 2:08
  episode 3 or whatever. So Underworld you mean?
• 2:12
  Actually, we're thinking deadly assassin.
• 2:14
  Really. Yeah.
• 2:15
  Or we'll talk. Episode 3 Nothing happens in
• 2:18
  Episode 3 I. Know it's fabulous.
• 2:20
  It's brilliant. It's doing nothing with style,
• 2:22
  but nothing happens. The plot does not advance one.
• 2:27
  Bit you may have mentioned that in your cliffhanger fret as well
• 2:29
  you know I. Think I did Robert Holmes.
• 2:32
  Well, I I know I mentioned in in Cliffhanger 3, Robert Holmes
• 2:35
  writes fantastic stories, but I think he hates cliffhangers, so
• 2:37
  he doesn't do a very good job with them.
• 2:40
  A lot of his cliffhangers are absolutely terrible.
• 2:42
  They're just kind of there because the narrative structure
• 2:44
  requires them, because you have to make it 4 parts or six parts.
• 2:47
  IA lot of writers are a bit irritated by cliffhangers, you
• 2:50
  know, disrupting the flow of the story, happen to build up to it
• 2:53
  and then come away from it. Well, I think there is 2.
• 2:55
  There's a couple of ways you can approach a cliffhanger.
• 2:57
  One is to view it as the story has to stop at 25 minutes.
• 3:01
  Every 25 minutes the story has to stop.
• 3:03
  What about if the plot advances every 25 minutes and your
• 3:07
  cliffhanger is a plot advancement?
• 3:10
  There are a lot of those. There are more of those than I
• 3:12
  expected, actually, when I was doing my cliffhanger thread,
• 3:15
  there's a lot more of those than I expected.
• 3:16
  Where the plot takes a turn at this point, rather than just
• 3:19
  being a moment of jeopardy, Yeah.
• 3:22
  Actually, I was just thought of the story.
• 3:24
  Is there a story where every single cliffhanger does that?
• 3:27
  I did think of one, you know, that sort of veers in another
• 3:29
  direction at the cliffhanger. And that is, you've got to think
• 3:33
  I'm crazy Terror of the Vervoids.
• 3:36
  The first episode, the Hydroponic Centre goes up and
• 3:39
  the Vervoids are released. The second episode, the the
• 3:42
  woman's unveiled That's been pricked with the thing.
• 3:44
  The third episode, we're heading into the eye of the Black Hole
• 3:47
  of Tartarus. Yeah.
• 3:50
  And that's that's kind of fine. The only problem I've got with
• 3:53
  those is that the Ruth Baxter thing didn't go anywhere.
• 3:57
  No, it's a good cliffhanger like.
• 3:58
  It's a good cliffhanger, but she had no further plot part in the
• 4:00
  plot, and the cliffhanger with the black hole suffered from
• 4:04
  JNT's insistence that the Doctor has to be the focus.
• 4:06
  The cliffhanger should have been the Hyperion 3 heading into the
• 4:09
  black hole, not the Doctor telling us that the Hyperion 3
• 4:13
  was heading into the. Third time like it's repeated
• 4:16
  several times we. Know what he's doing.
• 4:18
  Just that. Make that the final shot of the
• 4:20
  ship going into the black instead of the docs close up on
• 4:23
  the face. But yeah, so.
• 4:25
  We've already said, haven't we, that this sustains 6 episodes,
• 4:29
  so it can be done. Yeah, it can be.
• 4:31
  I think more often than not you have padding in a 6th parter.
• 4:35
  Yeah, there are. You know, sometimes you have
• 4:37
  padding in a in a four part. Like I said, deadly assassin.
• 4:39
  Part three is padding. There's a whole sequence in the
• 4:42
  Three Doctors where they stand around chatting.
• 4:44
  Doctor Tyler runs around in a circle and even says That was a
• 4:46
  bit of a waste of time, wasn't it?
• 4:48
  Yes, it was. You had to stand there because
• 4:51
  other things in the plot had to move, almost like in Silver
• 4:54
  Nemesis. Oh my God, I was just about to
• 4:56
  say Silver Nemesis to you. There's three comedy subplots in
• 4:59
  that one per episode of about 5 minutes long.
• 5:02
  And at one point, the doctrine ace literally have to sit on
• 5:05
  their ass doing nothing so that everyone else can get where they
• 5:09
  need to be for the plot to actually carry.
• 5:10
  On strange pacing going on there there.
• 5:12
  Is some strange pacing going on, But this episode, this story I
• 5:16
  think sustains 6 episodes quite nicely.
• 5:18
  I know I I didn't feel fatigued by it when I watched it at the
• 5:21
  BFI. I'm glad they split it up
• 5:23
  because sitting in those seats for 2 1/2 three hours would have
• 5:27
  been a bit of a challenge. I think the only circumstance
• 5:30
  this would be a chore is if just this era wasn't for you.
• 5:34
  Like we said, you know, it's got the action, it's got the
• 5:36
  military, the the Navy, the Master Jon Perk, We being a bit
• 5:42
  of a twat. Yeah, like it's got all of those
• 5:44
  sort of temples. If you don't like any of that,
• 5:46
  then yeah, of course this is going to be a bit I I talked to
• 5:48
  Matt Michael afterwards and he was like, oh God, sit, sit
• 5:51
  through six episodes of the Bloody Sea Devils to get to the
• 5:54
  bar. I think he was there for the
• 5:56
  social part of it because this just isn't his era.
• 5:59
  So fair enough. Which is fair enough.
• 6:01
  But then if you're going to the BFI for the social part, just go
• 6:04
  for the social part. You don't actually have to buy
• 6:05
  the tickets. You listen, Matt, All right.
• 6:07
  Just. Turn up to the bar.
• 6:09
  That's loads of people turned up at the bar afterwards.
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  Like, I went out of the door at the Sea Devils and there's four
• 6:14
  people waiting outside who were not in there.
• 6:16
  And so I know you were coming. And they'd come.
• 6:18
  They'd come from Comic Con, just up the road, and they'd come
• 6:22
  running down because they knew. Given how these seats are
• 6:24
  coveted, I'm grateful people that aren't enjoying watching it
• 6:28
  should get. Off their.
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  Seats for those that would, absolutely.
• 6:31
  If you're not going to enjoy the actual show, just come to the
• 6:34
  bar and have a drink afterwards. Because let's face it, but even
• 6:36
  with the Sea Devils, you know that was finished by, what,
• 6:39
  4:00? That's the rest of the evening
• 6:41
  in the bar. They're great events.
• 6:43
  They really are worth coming. If you can't get a ticket to the
• 6:46
  actual showing, just turn up to the BFI at the end and enjoy the
• 6:49
  bar with everyone because it's great.
• 6:50
  Enjoy the quiz and get lash of everybody.
• 6:53
  The quiz of Rasalon, Yes. Bit of a plug there for the quiz
• 6:56
  of Rasalon, which I didn't participate in this time, but.
• 7:00
  It's and and don't even bother taking part because Sahar's
• 7:03
  always going to win whatever team he's on.
• 7:06
  Get on his team. That's why.
• 7:09
  That's why he does the quick the Zoom quizzes with me.
• 7:12
  Because he won the otherwise. Three of them, and He won them
• 7:14
  all. So I did come to one of those
• 7:16
  and he won that, yeah. And I was like, oh.
• 7:19
  Right. If you're going to win it all,
• 7:20
  you're going to have to do it instead I.
• 7:21
  Think I came second, though, you know, I was quite close.
• 7:24
  I think you may well, yeah. We are looking at putting
• 7:27
  together another one. I will, I will plug it now.
• 7:30
  It may take a while because I remember we did, we did the 90s
• 7:35
  quiz and that took about a year to get set up for various
• 7:37
  reasons because life got in the way, but we are looking at doing
• 7:41
  the 70s next. Oh, marvellous.
• 7:43
  So at some point. I said that about the 90s one
• 7:46
  and didn't show up so. Well, yes, there is that, yeah.
• 7:50
  Take me to task I. Sent I sent you a message going
• 7:52
  You're joining us, and two hours later I got a message going.
• 7:54
  I'm sorry. I've been recorded.
• 7:56
  I'm so sorry. I've got four bloody podcasts
• 7:59
  coming out of this house now, you know?
• 8:01
  Yeah, my scheduling is is not the best.
• 8:06
  That's why it's best to just come round here and do these
• 8:08
  things, you know? All right.
• 8:09
  I know. I'm definitely going to do this
• 8:10
  if I come to your house. Well, look, should we go and
• 8:14
  watch Episode 2? Let's watch episode.
• 8:15
  We started with a question there.
• 8:17
  We saw when Don't. Think we ever got to an answer?
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  Four or six, depending on the writing.
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  That's the the optimum length for a classic Doctor Who story.
• 8:26
  I think we provided some entertainment though, which is
• 8:28
  what this is all about. So yes.
• 8:30
  Well, who started this one? Mate, you've got counters in
• 8:33
  there. Go on there.
• 8:34
  You go, OK, here we go in 321. Off we go.
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  Did I press play? Yes.
• 8:44
  Horatio Nelson. Jason is a close personal friend
• 8:48
  of mine. Yes, is.
• 8:50
  This the one where he says about Oh no, it's ambassador to death,
• 8:53
  my dear fellow. I simply don't happen to have a
• 8:54
  pass because I don't believe it. That's why not.
• 8:58
  Yeah, well, you know, you could believe that John Pert.
• 9:01
  We might have been friends with Horatio Nelson.
• 9:03
  I know he knew various famous historical people during his
• 9:06
  time in the Navy. Where does Pertwee fall for you?
• 9:10
  Like the 3rd Doctor? Like is he one of your
• 9:12
  favourites? Yeah, I think so.
• 9:15
  I mean, I it's going to sound such a cliche.
• 9:18
  I find it very difficult to decide who's my favorite because
• 9:20
  I love them all. They're because they're
• 9:22
  different. They've all got something good
• 9:25
  about them and I really like Pertwee.
• 9:27
  I like the Third Doctor. I see.
• 9:30
  I talk with Sahar quite a lot and I know he really has
• 9:34
  difficulty with early pearly the sort of the arrogant,
• 9:37
  condescending, you know, in the mind of evil at the test of the
• 9:43
  Keller machine, that sort of people that talk about
• 9:45
  infamilitary stuff. I am completely the other
• 9:49
  direction. I find that sort of rudeness
• 9:53
  where you're completely unaware of how rude you're being
• 9:56
  hilarious. Well, I I quite like the
• 9:59
  observation that was made in. I think it was one of these.
• 10:01
  Was it Pete Lambert who did the Demons?
• 10:03
  Yeah. Oh, about the Doctor and the
• 10:05
  Master. And he pointed out that the
• 10:06
  doctor's the good guy, but he's a Git and the master's the bad
• 10:10
  guy. But he's charming and nice and
• 10:12
  that kind of it doesn't have to be nice.
• 10:14
  Into a position where, no, we empathise with the master
• 10:18
  because he wants to do terrible things, but we like him more
• 10:20
  sometimes. Yeah.
• 10:23
  In fact, I think this story is a good example of that.
• 10:25
  I want to hang out with the Master quite a bit.
• 10:27
  I think Jon Pertwee might have known that as well, you know.
• 10:30
  Quite possibly I do. I do like this scene where it's
• 10:36
  give. Jon Pertwee is very good, but he
• 10:40
  notoriously hated the techno Babble and it is pretty obvious
• 10:45
  that he is reading his line. He's got his lines in, I
• 10:48
  understand there about oscillators and outputs and
• 10:51
  things like that and low frequency amplifiers.
• 10:53
  I think he's got his techno Babble.
• 10:54
  But he's looking at the syringe as if he's really concentrated
• 10:57
  on that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 11:03
  Oh, I love it. He does a bit of business at the
• 11:05
  end there. A bit of.
• 11:05
  Business with the syringe, yeah. I love the bit in the minute
• 11:09
  where he rewires the radio and oh, it blows up in his face.
• 11:13
  That got a great laugh at the BFI.
• 11:15
  It did. It did indeed.
• 11:18
  Yeah. Joe is remarkably competent in
• 11:27
  this story. She is Hulk.
• 11:29
  I think writes her really, really well.
• 11:32
  He does the same thing again in Frontier in space, or maybe less
• 11:35
  so in Colony in Space. Oh wait, hang on a second.
• 11:40
  What's going on in the wall there?
• 11:45
  Splashes of paint. Looks like handprints I.
• 11:50
  Just the handgun for the Sea Devils, this is one of the rare
• 11:54
  occasions in Doctor Who where they made a gun that didn't look
• 11:57
  like a gun. And I really like it.
• 12:00
  And I wish they'd done it more, because sometimes the design of
• 12:04
  guns and weapons in this series is.
• 12:08
  Yes. A bit off.
• 12:10
  Do you remember Hugo Lang's pistol in Twin Dilemma?
• 12:15
  Looks like it had come out of a cracker.
• 12:17
  Yeah, I think one of the worst offenders though, has got to be
• 12:20
  those bloody awful box things in kinder.
• 12:23
  Oh. Those guns are the.
• 12:25
  Power of life and death over all of you.
• 12:28
  Yeah, which would count for a lot more if you weren't holding
• 12:31
  a ridiculous plastic. Cardboard, I think.
• 12:33
  Crappy gun thing. Look at these.
• 12:37
  Did you see those sort of Batman tilted angles that he was doing
• 12:39
  there in the set? He's just constantly trying to
• 12:42
  make this visually interesting. Oh, I love all this.
• 12:45
  We do this twice in the in the same story of the monster trying
• 12:49
  to get in the door. So in this bit he electrifies
• 12:53
  the door and later on they melt down the door.
• 12:56
  And I love those sequences. It's this.
• 12:57
  I like the little things, like the set dressing here where
• 12:59
  they've got the sign about the electric shock.
• 13:02
  It just kinds of add the verisimilitude to it, rather
• 13:05
  than just being a box on the wall with danger or something.
• 13:07
  That's the kind of safety notice that you'd actually generally
• 13:10
  get in a place like that, so. He explains in the commentary
• 13:13
  how they do this with the the melting door polystyrene looks.
• 13:18
  Acetone. But he looks so effective, and
• 13:20
  because he's backlit it red. It looks like it's sort of
• 13:23
  glowing. Yeah, it.
• 13:24
  Does it looks really good? And that's that.
• 13:30
  I think that's perfect fuel for the kids as well, Melting down
• 13:33
  the door, the hand coming in. Yeah.
• 13:37
  Yeah, look at these ankles. And again, lighting.
• 13:44
  Oh, I love the Sea Devil screams as well.
• 13:51
  And the smashed glass offset. We're not going to actually
• 13:53
  smash a window, but. No.
• 13:55
  Well, just like smear here from space.
• 13:57
  Oh, Jane Blythe, another competent 2 competent women.
• 14:02
  Yay. Well, it's excuse me, I can
• 14:06
  point out one or two Hinchcliffe stories, you know, where a woman
• 14:09
  doesn't feature. Yeah.
• 14:15
  I believe she makes a fine cheese sandwich as well.
• 14:17
  She does make just just to remind.
• 14:19
  Does it the the sexism in Doctor Who?
• 14:21
  What I particularly like about the way it's done in this in
• 14:24
  this story, is that you have episodes of her being
• 14:27
  incompetent and respected by her peers and everything.
• 14:30
  And then you get that prick Walker turning up going, where's
• 14:32
  bring me some toast in a newspaper and you.
• 14:35
  It kind of adds more to the way that you feel about that idiot.
• 14:40
  I mean, we'll talk more about him when he actually appears,
• 14:41
  but I remember Katie Manning at the BFI saying she's getting
• 14:44
  really annoyed with him watching him on the screen.
• 14:46
  I know, I know. He is, you know, that sort of
• 14:50
  character that's there to complicate the plot and that he
• 14:53
  is. But you know what I think of the
• 14:55
  sea deals. I do think of Walker.
• 14:57
  He's a very vivid character, always stuff in his face.
• 15:02
  Look at their chemistry. Look at how she smiles.
• 15:04
  She smiles at him like he is the most incredible man in the whole
• 15:08
  world. They really do have a good
• 15:11
  chemistry going on those two. I mean, it's good here.
• 15:14
  I think it's out of this world in Curse of Peloton, the story
• 15:18
  before this Princess Josephine of TARDIS.
• 15:22
  Yeah, oh, the Silurian. A bit of a name.
• 15:24
  Check with the Silurian saying, Oh no, no, they weren't
• 15:27
  Silurians, they were eocenes. Yeah, that's why I learned the
• 15:30
  word misnomer as well. Yeah.
• 15:33
  Doctor, he's responsible for teaching me a lot of words, you
• 15:35
  know. Yes, hydroponics.
• 15:37
  Hydroponics. Antediluvian propped up a lot,
• 15:43
  but yeah, and here we are explaining that, yes, this is
• 15:46
  basically the same story that we had in in Season 7.
• 15:49
  So it's the the reptiles have come out of hibernation, but
• 15:51
  these ones live in the sea. Which, you know, a lot of people
• 15:57
  say the Pearl we era is the first era to sort of bring in
• 16:00
  this continuity between stories because it is sort of one fixed
• 16:04
  time period. But actually we did that with
• 16:07
  the Daleks and the Dalek Invasion of Earth.
• 16:09
  We did that with the Cybermen in the Moon base.
• 16:11
  Yeah, yeah. What does it take for a Doctor
• 16:17
  Who monster to stick like this then?
• 16:21
  Are we effectively saying this is the sea Silurians?
• 16:24
  This is basically the Sea Silurians.
• 16:25
  I think what it takes is not only a good design, but I think
• 16:29
  a good story to start with. Like the Daleks have an
• 16:32
  excellent opening story. They're not only are they
• 16:34
  visually superb, but if they'd been in a really crappy story, I
• 16:41
  don't think they'd have stuck. The Cybermen captured the
• 16:45
  imagination. The 10th planet is not maybe the
• 16:47
  best story. They are.
• 16:49
  Chilling in the but. They are brilliant in it, the
• 16:51
  way they're written. Eyes coming through that mask.
• 16:55
  Yeah, now that it's all been remastered.
• 16:57
  We can see that. Terrifying.
• 16:58
  I don't. I don't even know.
• 16:59
  I don't. Think we were supposed to see
• 17:01
  that but. More great stock footage.
• 17:03
  It just makes it feel. Real it does, even though it's a
• 17:07
  different helicopter from the one we saw taking off earlier.
• 17:09
  Oh, here he goes. He's going to ZAP his his little
• 17:11
  radio I. See so myself.
• 17:12
  That's a remarkably efficient piece of work.
• 17:16
  And he does the He does the comic business so well, Jon
• 17:19
  Pertwee, Because he doesn't, he doesn't mug for it.
• 17:21
  No, he shies away from comedy more often than not in Doctor
• 17:24
  Who, doesn't he? He does well.
• 17:26
  They well, you know, when they first got him on, they said he
• 17:28
  wanted to play it straight down the middle as a as a dramatic
• 17:31
  role. But when he does have a little
• 17:33
  bit of comedy, it's always quite subtle and nicely done.
• 17:39
  Oh, the Roger Delgado in the Navy uniform.
• 17:42
  As an Admiral, that is gold. Oh, this is great, because Joe's
• 17:54
  like the voice of reason here is he.
• 17:56
  Joe's the diplomat. We just sort of bulged us in
• 17:59
  going, oh, I might, you know. But this is what we were saying
• 18:07
  earlier on about this, this not being a UNIT story.
• 18:10
  If this was a UNIT story, the Doctor would walk in with his
• 18:13
  story, the Brigadier would go, right, let's go and investigate.
• 18:15
  Whereas with Captain Hart, he's got to say, right?
• 18:17
  OK, first of all, got to convince him what the story is.
• 18:21
  OK, fine, OK. But what do you expect me to do
• 18:24
  about it? If this was a UNIT story, there
• 18:26
  wouldn't be any of that. So I think moving it to this
• 18:29
  setting actually works very much in this story's favour, and
• 18:33
  especially as UNIT encountered the solutions in the 1st place.
• 18:35
  If the Doctor went, oh, there's some more.
• 18:37
  The Brigadier will go. Ah, right.
• 18:38
  OK, well, we know what to do with them, yeah.
• 18:41
  Also, you know the repeated scene of the doctor saying you
• 18:44
  know, come on man, use your intelligence and all this.
• 18:47
  It it does add another 10 minutes to the running time, it
• 18:51
  pads it out a bit. This is a incredibly long winded
• 18:54
  way of because I don't think we really need the master get in
• 18:58
  the spares. We could have just said, oh,
• 19:00
  what? I've got the spares, you know,
• 19:02
  But we need to show that he can get in and out of the prison,
• 19:06
  don't we? We do, yes.
• 19:07
  Because, I mean, there's no reason why Trenchard couldn't
• 19:09
  have just ordered the spares. Yeah, and had them sent over.
• 19:16
  And of course. But of course what it does do is
• 19:18
  not only does it give us the master getting in and out of the
• 19:21
  prison, Unfortunately I just dropped my phone and I thought
• 19:26
  that Bang was for anyone who's listening.
• 19:28
  Unfortunately, of course, to do that we have to play into the
• 19:31
  security are. Fucking useless because he's
• 19:35
  basically just under a blanket in the back of a.
• 19:37
  Car driven up in the back under a blanket in the car and even
• 19:40
  when they decide to seal the thing, they've just driven out
• 19:46
  before the gates go down. It's just like security around
• 19:49
  here is rubbish. I do like this, though, that
• 19:52
  we're immediately it took about four episodes to get into the
• 19:58
  this is our planet. We were here before, man, Let's
• 20:01
  share. So he's saying here in Episode
• 20:03
  2, there's a peaceful way we can deal with this.
• 20:05
  I've been here before. Yeah, you know.
• 20:08
  It's got some. Shorthand to it, yeah.
• 20:10
  Absolutely. So by by referencing back to
• 20:13
  that story, it's like, OK, we know what the situation is now.
• 20:17
  We know that what we're going to have to deal with is the
• 20:19
  different and with the masters in in the mix, that's going to
• 20:22
  be the confounding factor. Unfortunately, I think one thing
• 20:25
  that that does do is it takes away some of the variety among
• 20:30
  the Sea Devils themselves, because in the Silurians we had
• 20:35
  the old solarium, the young solarium, the scientist who
• 20:37
  wasn't sure and all that. In the Sea Devils here, they're
• 20:40
  all kind of there's a bit where one of them is almost one over
• 20:43
  until the attack happens, but that's kind of the only
• 20:47
  variation on them we get, and only one of them actually speaks
• 20:50
  the master. In this is both a curse and a
• 20:52
  blessing, I think. I think he's a curse because as
• 20:55
  you say, the Silurians are way more interesting than the Sea
• 21:00
  Devils and and are better characters because they have
• 21:04
  more screen time. But this is far more
• 21:08
  entertaining for having Roger Delgado in it.
• 21:11
  Like I would rather watch the Sea Devils, personally, yeah.
• 21:16
  And I love the. Silurians, but it it it takes
• 21:18
  itself incredibly seriously. Whereas this is having fun, the
• 21:22
  masters in there, Sarki quips. A sword fight with a sandwich
• 21:26
  halfway through, You know, action set pieces.
• 21:32
  Doctor. Who has changed from Series 7 to
• 21:35
  Series 9? He has very much.
• 21:37
  Maybe this is? Sort of the the biggest
• 21:40
  contrast. Yeah, I think.
• 21:43
  I think this works as it does illustrate the contrast because
• 21:48
  it is essentially trying to tell the same story that we told two
• 21:51
  years ago, but just the different ways it does it.
• 21:56
  Even like the ending, and we'll get there later on.
• 21:59
  I feel like sort of the consequence of blow, you know,
• 22:03
  the doctor's just complicit now. Oh, well, we tried.
• 22:08
  Whereas at the end of the Siluras, it's absolute
• 22:10
  condemnation. Another thing I like about this
• 22:14
  one is a we've had the master in every story in series 8
• 22:18
  hypnotising people left, right and centre.
• 22:21
  He fails to hypnotise anybody in this story, except possibly the
• 22:26
  guy right at the very end. Yeah, but his.
• 22:29
  Attempts don't go anywhere he. Uses his psychology though.
• 22:33
  He manipulates people in this or he beats the.
• 22:36
  Crap out of them like he just did with that.
• 22:39
  I like that. Though you know when he's a bit
• 22:41
  more physical yeah. Oh this trench should look.
• 22:44
  Trench has tried very hard to distract them all whilst the
• 22:48
  Master gets his bits and bobs I really like.
• 22:51
  That as a distraction, actually, That Trenchard being, he's
• 22:56
  playing up to his persona as a bluff old idiot.
• 23:00
  Really. Maybe there is more?
• 23:01
  Gown on there than much for gown.
• 23:03
  So to actually have him creating the distraction just by chatting
• 23:07
  about golf, it's so. Awkward.
• 23:10
  Have you ever been in this situation where someone's going
• 23:12
  on and on and you're just like you just want them to?
• 23:14
  Go God like. And Joe, bless her, sort of
• 23:19
  smiling sweetly. The doctor's just like, well, if
• 23:21
  I'm ever able to conclude my business, what's he asking them
• 23:29
  to do? Why is there going to be
• 23:30
  protests? Because he was talking.
• 23:31
  About stopping ships from going through that stretch of the
• 23:34
  water where the ships are sinking, but they're shipping
• 23:38
  lanes, so you can't just shut them down, do you?
• 23:40
  Know what? We just saw a reaction shot from
• 23:42
  Katie Manning when she saw the motto and her eyes were like
• 23:45
  bloody sources. Do you remember that story about
• 23:47
  her and Jane Howe and Planet of the Daleks?
• 23:50
  Did you ever hear that where Jane Howe came in and she's
• 23:53
  playing everything really subtly and naturalistically, and she's
• 23:56
  like, OK, And then she saw Katie Manning go, oh, that's how I
• 24:03
  supposed to. And that was a great example of
• 24:06
  that from Katie Manning there. Like, it was a very, I mean, you
• 24:09
  wouldn't get away with a reaction shot like that, now
• 24:11
  would you? No.
• 24:16
  And again, here we are with the whole the benefit of this being
• 24:19
  not a unit story. If someone said I've just seen
• 24:22
  the Master, they'd be on that. Who's that?
• 24:25
  Whereas here. It's like, what are you talking
• 24:27
  about? Who?
• 24:27
  Why? What are you, who's the master?
• 24:29
  What are you talking about? What do you want me to do?
• 24:31
  Etcetera. And it's like he's just driven
• 24:33
  off and now we'll shut the gate. Although do you remember those?
• 24:35
  Lines and I think it's the time Monster about.
• 24:38
  I think one of our agents has caught up with the Master.
• 24:41
  No, it turned out to be this, the Spanish ambassador, I think.
• 24:45
  That was in commonly in school. Oh, it was funny lying.
• 24:49
  Well, it's a bit of an in joke because Roger Delgado played the
• 24:51
  Spanish ambassador in another series, OK?
• 24:56
  The Master. Yeah, who is the master?
• 25:00
  There you go. He just said it.
• 25:01
  Nobody else. Would have a short beard in a
• 25:03
  naval uniform. And you got to remember, this is
• 25:06
  probably right in the middle of his era here.
• 25:09
  It's halfway through his third season, so he's technically at
• 25:14
  his high at this point. Established.
• 25:16
  Popular. Yeah.
• 25:19
  Very much so. They're throwing a.
• 25:20
  Bit of money at him as well. I mean, he must have been on
• 25:22
  Cloud 9 making this, yeah? Must have been like you say he
• 25:26
  gets. To be on the water.
• 25:27
  All those modes of transport. He gets to play about him.
• 25:31
  Yeah, action. Oh, we're going to get that
• 25:35
  sword fight a minute was at the end of three.
• 25:37
  That's the end. Of this episode.
• 25:38
  Oh, it's. So great you're good, Doctor,
• 25:41
  but you're not that good. I haven't seen the.
• 25:44
  Quality of my footwork yet Trenchard in conference, playing
• 25:48
  golf, practising his putting technique on the carpet, so the.
• 25:53
  Inference seems to be, I think they talk about it.
• 25:55
  Don't know that he was the the leader of a colony or something
• 25:58
  that went under. He was the governor of A.
• 25:59
  Colony that declared independence shortly after he
• 26:01
  arrived. That's a very.
• 26:03
  Malcolm hold joke, but the idea is basically that they shuffle
• 26:07
  Trenchard off to this castle prison just to get him out of
• 26:12
  out of their way. Yeah.
• 26:14
  You can imagine, I think. I think in the novelization,
• 26:18
  Hulk bulks it up because I mean, as we said on the book club with
• 26:21
  the Doomsday machine, Malcolm Hulk's novelizations tend to
• 26:25
  beef out the characters a bit. And I think there's, I think he
• 26:29
  goes on a bit about Trenchard's resentment that he should have
• 26:32
  been somewhere else, he should have been governing a colony, he
• 26:35
  should have been somewhere. And now he's stuck on this
• 26:37
  prison on this island, guarding 1 prisoner.
• 26:39
  I've got to. Say, without naming any names.
• 26:43
  In various workplaces that I've worked, I have seen people in
• 26:47
  positions of authority like this that are completely unsuited for
• 26:51
  the role. Oh, I think we've all.
• 26:54
  So I think we can all see somebody in Trenchard.
• 26:57
  Yeah, I keep saying. Trenchard.
• 26:59
  Is it Trenchard. Trenchard.
• 27:01
  Trenchard, Trenchard or Trenchard.
• 27:03
  But it's print out. Yeah, it's Spelt Trenchard.
• 27:07
  No buts, Jason, just do as I ask, sorry.
• 27:14
  Not a chance. You know, the sort of thing you
• 27:16
  ask. Oh, you can only guess, I'll
• 27:19
  tell you. Look at what he's wearing now.
• 27:21
  The master. That cloak.
• 27:22
  Yeah. Looks like the.
• 27:24
  Epitome of evil That's slightly glam as well, a.
• 27:29
  Little bit, yeah. I can see somebody on Drag Race,
• 27:33
  you know, doing Roger Delgado. There is, there is something a
• 27:40
  little dangerous about him in this story like you said there
• 27:45
  about him sort of suddenly jumping in to attack people.
• 27:49
  And he's like, I feel like sometimes he can be written a
• 27:52
  little sitcom, like that's that's where we end up in the
• 27:55
  time monster you. Know when he's.
• 27:57
  Pleading at the end, so. It was remarkably easy for him
• 28:06
  to pull that thing off the wall and just shove something over
• 28:09
  the security camera, wasn't it? That's just.
• 28:13
  He is planning on killing the Doctor now though, isn't it?
• 28:15
  Oh yeah, we're just going to watch it now.
• 28:24
  Yeah, why not? This is a bit odd because he
• 28:30
  goes, oh that grill seems to be blocked.
• 28:32
  That's the one that's got the CCTV camera in it.
• 28:34
  So it's not actually an air conditioning thing at all.
• 28:36
  So what, what a what? I think they may have.
• 28:38
  Shunted off all the guards to this prison as well because they
• 28:41
  were a bit inept, a bit in it, although they're putting in, you
• 28:44
  know, the world class super villains.
• 28:49
  Might have been a a silly idea. Oh man, probably must have got
• 28:53
  this script. I'm just been delighted.
• 28:56
  Blindfold. Golf.
• 28:58
  Sword fights. Like, I know I do this a lot,
• 29:06
  but I'm not being ridiculous. Like he has got something
• 29:09
  Pertwee. And I don't mean sex appeal, but
• 29:12
  he's just got some sort of magnetism.
• 29:16
  That I really. Really love about him.
• 29:20
  He's very, he's very much got leading man energy for somebody.
• 29:23
  Who we know is incredibly nervous as an actor.
• 29:29
  He seems so assured, like he's like on screen, and he's just
• 29:34
  got so much presence. Yeah, definitely.
• 29:39
  I'm a massive. Perk we Stan, can you tell?
• 29:43
  So you hide it well, Joe. Hide it well?
• 29:45
  No, I think he's excellent. It's never boring watching him
• 29:49
  on screen those. Venetian blinds were not a good
• 29:52
  idea, were they? They are.
• 29:54
  Waving in the breeze. Oh dear.
• 29:58
  Almost advertising the fact that it's CSO Oh, that he's still,
• 30:04
  he's still going to play it on for a little bit.
• 30:06
  The Master. Oh dear, it does feel.
• 30:12
  Like at this point and in the Time monster as well, It's just
• 30:15
  a big game now. Yeah, why do we kind of started
• 30:20
  that way, didn't it? In terror.
• 30:21
  The Autons it. Did, yeah.
• 30:26
  Until you, you know, whip out the pistol.
• 30:29
  If you're pardon the expression, yes.
• 30:35
  Here we get Jumpert, we Hi. Akitai.
• 30:41
  Why are there swords? Fuck no.
• 30:43
  Because we want to do a sword fight, that's why.
• 30:46
  What do you think then about because Jumpert, we talks about
• 30:49
  this in interviews quite eloquently actually, about how
• 30:53
  absurd it is that they don't best each other because they're
• 30:57
  both supposed to be, you know, the biggest super brains in the
• 30:59
  universe, the Doctor and the Master.
• 31:02
  And he says it's because they're friends, because they're
• 31:04
  brothers, because they're etcetera, because they love each
• 31:06
  other. Really.
• 31:07
  Yeah. What do you buy?
• 31:09
  Into that. There's definitely a connection
• 31:13
  between them, and you do get the impression partly through Roger
• 31:21
  Delgado's performance here, which I think informed well
• 31:25
  pretty sure informed every subsequent iteration of the
• 31:27
  Master, and they left the blind open a closed there so you could
• 31:33
  see the bright yellow CSO screen behind him.
• 31:36
  These lies Violent exercise makes me hungry.
• 31:39
  But you do get the. Impression that if the Master
• 31:41
  ever did actually kill the Doctor, he'd be genuinely upset
• 31:44
  about it. Yeah, but then the Doctor gives
• 31:46
  back the sword. So it's kind of, well, we kind
• 31:50
  of lose the kind of idea that this is supposed to be properly
• 31:54
  dangerous combat because the buttocks is just like, oh, I'll
• 31:56
  give him back his sword, why not?
• 31:58
  But it is. Oh, I could really see the
• 32:00
  stuntman's face there. I don't know what.
• 32:02
  You're talking about you. Definitely not.
• 32:03
  And you know, I. I also, I've been talking
• 32:06
  wonderful things about the production, but that's spit out
• 32:08
  footage. Why?
• 32:10
  Why? That's not a trick that's used
• 32:13
  often in Doctor Who and I can see why.
• 32:15
  This whip pan, that's really dramatic, him throwing that
• 32:20
  knife, I think it is. By the end, you're not.
• 32:23
  Impressed. Not a great.
• 32:25
  Cliffhanger Because we know damn well that knife is not going to
• 32:27
  end up between the doctor's shoulder blades.
• 32:29
  So because it's a. Foregone conclusion it's.
• 32:34
  Nicely done. But no, there is no, you know
• 32:39
  it's it's a cheat. I mean it's kind of, I don't
• 32:42
  know, some of them can be done really well.
• 32:44
  I really like the crossbow firing at the end of part three
• 32:48
  of Mysterious Planet and Irelene says.
• 32:51
  Who are you hunting? And you when he fires the thing.
• 32:54
  Now you know he hasn't shot the Doctor, but it's so nice to be
• 32:56
  done well. But someone is shot as well,
• 32:59
  though yeah, someone does get. Shot so it's not.
• 33:01
  Technically achieved. Plus, of course, it's.
• 33:04
  One of only two of the cliffhangers in that whole
• 33:06
  story. It isn't a close up of Colin
• 33:07
  Baker, although they do put one in just before he fires the
• 33:10
  crossbow. But I mean, in terms of class,
• 33:14
  yeah, that sword fight. I've just whinged about the
• 33:17
  spell up, spell up footage and all of that.
• 33:19
  The witty lines. It's Delgado and Pertway having
• 33:23
  a sword fight. I mean, it is fucking classy.
• 33:26
  It is. But it doesn't quite fit the
• 33:29
  whole the master is the mortal enemy, and they're doing
• 33:33
  something that's going to involve lots of death and
• 33:35
  destruction. It's like, now they're just
• 33:36
  having fun. It's, it's.
• 33:38
  Essentially, it's it's another sort of distraction away from
• 33:41
  the plot. We've got another episode out of
• 33:43
  this now, yeah. Yeah, we're into, we're into two
• 33:46
  episodes. Let's we should have to see
• 33:48
  where Episode 3 takes us. Let's go.
• 33:50
  Shall we?