Latest / Comps List Radio / Episode 17: John Walton Caughey, "California Gold Rush," 1948

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Episode 17: John Walton Caughey, "California Gold Rush," 1948 · Comps List Radio

• Robert Ferguson: From H Bowl World Headquarters on the World Wide Web, this is Comps List Radio with Marie Todd and Robert Ferguson. doing a a big jump from some of from basically anything we've ever done before this week. So this is this is very exciting. Marie, you before we really get started, you know. W maybe you want to tell people how we came to decide on this book before we even tell people what the book is. Well, we've been talking about getting out of the south, obviously, branching out into other areas. And we wanted to go west as Americans are prone to do. So that's where we at. We landed in California this week. Yeah. So we we decided to do a a book Basically we we were again, we were trying to figure out what to do and we are not Western historians. We want to be very clear. So if you're a Western historian listening to this podcast, please we need you to have some grace with us. Yes. Okay. Have a lot of grace with us. I mean, initially we were gonna do Jackson Turner's essay and you know, we turn that over in our heads and and maybe we'll do that at some point in the future. But we wanted to do a monograph as that had typically been the the style of the podcast so far. And so we wanted to do a monograph. And so we ended up deciding to do a a book called Very Simply The California Gold Rush by John Walton Cocky. Kae, I I'm not totally sure how to pronounce that, but Kaye or Koggy people could could correct me. But yeah, so we we wanted to do the California Gold Rush. So that's where we that's where we ended up. And I think this was a really fun book about a subject that I admittedly know very little about. Yeah, I've taught the California Gold Rush and I was interested to see that a lot of the narrative comes from this work. And when it comes to his last name, I did look and there are multiple pronunciations. So I feel like maybe we'll be safe, but obviously correct us if we're wrong. and so yeah, I thought I've taught this I know kind of the basics, but I learned a lot from this book, a whole lot. And not as familiar with the historiography at all. Yeah, neither am I. And that's that's really, I think, where this podcast might differ from some of the ones that we've done in the past. We're probably just gonna con talk more about the content of the book than we will about where it fits into the broader historiography. Because again, we just when it comes to the gold rush, when it comes to California, Marie and I really Don't know. I think I'm speaking for myself. I really don't know the historiography here. Yeah. The what I found as far as the historiography, and we might just tie it up here, is that there was quite a response to this work. but their original work was published in 1948. So he's working for the California Centennial series here. So he's writing a book about the founding of California. So 1948. And he the original title was Gold is the Cornerstone. And so that's what he's arguing here is that gold is the cornerstone of the foundation of California and you don't have modern California without gold. And we'll get into that in a little bit. But the biggest thing I found is that there's a huge response to this work where they make it, they complicate the narrative that he gives in 48 and then he redoes in 1976, I think is when the next 1975 is when it's renamed to the California Gold Rush. And so As far as I found the limited digging that I did, that's what we've got for historiography today. Digging, yeah. Well good choice of digging was a good choice. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I'm glad you caught that. I'm glad you caught that. Yeah, I I mean that definitely comes true is that the book is that it it's very much arguing that gold is at the forefront. But it it's not it's not just like the forefront of its constitutional history or its legal history, but the foundation of the society of self. Exactly. And and I think he's probably on weakest ground there. but again, I mean, I, you know, because that's a broader claim. And whenever you're making a really broad claim, that's where, you know, I think we all know as historians, that's where you start to get into some trouble. Lord knows that's where I get into trouble. Right. I'm with you. Yeah. So Marie, are are you able to tell us a little bit about John Walton Cahee or Kae or however we coffee, maybe, however you pronounce the name? Yeah, I'm not say coffee, just that's fun. So I did find a little bit about him. He was born in Wichita, he was raised in Nebraska. He was born in nineteen two. he got his bachelor's at the University of Texas in nineteen twenty three and his PhD at Berkeley in nineteen twenty eight. And an interesting Interesting fact I found is he studied under Herbert Bolton, who was Frederick Jackson Turner's student. And so even though we didn't do Frederick Jackson Turner, we do have a lineage here. And so we're we're touching on that just a bit. Although both Bolton and Coggy Coffee broke with Frederick Jackson Turner. And so there they kind of moved away from his narrative. his he's written many, many books. over 25 books that I found, but he was the he wrote the the textbook on California history. And so he was like the defining California historian for many years. He was the president of the Mississippi Valley Historical Association, which became the OAH, which was interesting. And then the Western History Association, he was president of it as well. And they give out a prize every year in his name. So still a very important figure in Western history. He also, so in 1949, he was at the University of California and he they asked him and other professors to sign an anti-communist loyalty pledge, and he refused to sign and he was fired over that. He was later reinstated after a California Supreme Court case. But I thought that was an interesting development in his career there. And it really turned him to writing more about civil liberties and less about Western history. And so it really did change the trajectory there of his career. He also worked with his wife, and co-published books with his wife, like the Genobases that we just talked about. he retired in the late sixties and he lived in Massachusetts until he died in nineteen ninety five at the ripe old age of ninety-three. So quite the life he here. Yeah. I mean again, this is I I'd encounter I I think I'd encountered the name before, but again, you know, this is just I think a a d something that's a reminder for American historians is we assume we're Americanists, so we we have some knowledge about every aspect, some general knowledge of every kind of field in American history. But for those of you who are who are watching or listening who aren't American historians, I mean, it it's a massive country with with with a pretty even though it's a relatively short history, it's still a a a it's still a big history. And the region, you know, there's a regionality to it. And so, you know, Marie and I are southern historians, just by virtue, I think we on some level we all have to be national historians. Right. So we're familiar with the big national histories and you know, some of the And you know, just by nature of where academia is centered in America, we I think we all kind of have a familiarity with Northeastern and New England history. Right. a passing familiarity, if nothing else. But when we get into Western history, it it doesn't necessarily it it's not something we necessarily have have to engage or it something falls off. eventually stuff has to fall off. Like there's lots of historians that don't read on the South because it you just can't do it. Right. Right. And so again, and so for those of you who aren't again who who aren't historians, you maybe don't appreciate that, that is sort of the limitation we're operating a slight limitation we're operating under here. but so what did you think of the book? liked it overall. I like a narrative history and he definitely wrote this as a story. I mean, he's writing it for the Centennials, so he does have that objective in mind. I thought the stories he told were interesting and I thought his overall artic argument, although Scholars push back against it later. He doesn't use a lot of sources, if any, from Native Americans, which is an important part of this story, but those are added later. He doesn't use, he leaves out a lot about women, which I mean, this book book is published in 1948. You know, that's part of writing in the 40s. That's what's gonna happen. but overall, I think the argument that without the gold rush, you do not have modern day California is is compelling. I think it was a very compelling argument. And I think telling it as a narrative was a good way to go about this story. And knowing that he wrote the textbook on California history and then knowing that this was part of his early work. And so he really was connected to the stories that he told. So he when he tells these, I mean, he's using great sources for this. Even though he leaves things out, he is using great sources like the diaries that he uses in this work. you feel in some of these passages like you are there. Yeah. And I I really appreciate a book like that. What did you think of it? Yeah, I I agree. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot. I you know y you feel you to some extent like you feel like you're in the diggings. Mm-hmm. You feel like you feel that cold, you feel that dirt, you feel that toil, you feel it all. And he does a really good job, I think, of of explaining life, what what life was like or or the the journey that so many of them were on in and in many ways this is told as a journey. Right. This story. Right. and you know, yes, there there's there's obviously things that are missing. women, I especially women who are missing, I mean. It it it is tricky. I think this is a story that is always tricky to get women into be because these are mostly taking place in the camps where there just aren't that many women. Right. In the first place. Like these are very especially early on. Especially early on. And most of the story is done. Like he he doesn't he doesn't really go into the fifties that much. Right. No. He says he leaves that to the national historian. Yeah, yeah. Primarily like this is the story of the the years of forty eight and forty nine. There's some there's aspects that bleed into the 50s and 60s and and one of his last chapters goes into the eighties, but it's very cursory. Right. this is about those exciting years, really that exciting two-year strip like year and a half from the spring of 1848 through December 31st of 1849. Right. Right. And When you teach the gold rush, it is you talk about the 49ers. Students have heard the 49ers, like obviously nationally, even if you don't associate the 49ers with the gold rush, you know the 49ers. And so it is here reading what he said about n about 1848 was really interesting. And that's the year, you know, he's writing a hundred years later. And so that's the year where he sets this kind of story up is when the gold was actually discovered in 48 instead of when people started coming in 49. And so I think that that like focusing on 48 was very interesting to me. I learned a lot from those early passages, those early chapters. Yeah. And and I think the thing that strike that struck me the most is like you forget just how. Big this is before you know the telegraph really. Right. Like this is before how slow information travels. So I I I can't remember you know, the the specifics is gold is essentially established credibly that there are significant gold deposits in like March of 1848. Right. Right. it's not until the fall That the rest of the country is really aware that they're it incredibly it believes that there's gold in California. Right, right. Polk, President Polk gives this address in December of 1848 where he kind of confirms what they had been hearing in the fall. And he says, yes, there is gold in California. We have proof of this. and he uses this as justification for the Mexican-American War in retrospect. And so I thought that was interesting too to tie in his I mean, Polk is really using this as a way to say, look, it was worth it. It was worth it. Even though he had no idea during the war that this was here, or we have no evidence that he knew that it was there at that point. But it's that speech that really sets off the rush. And so that's why you don't get the rush until forty nine. That's when people start moving. That's when the journey begins. That's when people are going, I mean, coming from all over the world at that point. Where before in 1848, it had been pretty limited about who was there. And he talks about this period as almost tranquil in a way. That they had this more individualistic, they'd set out their own laws, even though they weren't codified, even though they weren't written down. They did abide by these like na he he uses the term neighborly rule. And so the difference between 48 and then when people start coming in 1849 is tremendous. Then you do need codified laws, you do need courts, you need some kind of like they use the the claim laws in 1849, which they don't have in 1848. And so that transition between before Polk announced. Gold was there before gold actually reached the Northeast. And then by the end of 1849 is tremendous. Yeah. And he does the re again, he does a really good job showing that. I I mean it it's one of those things. Yeah, he he does. And it's just one of those things. We call it a gold rush. And sometimes maybe we don't dwell on what rush means. Right, right. It is. This is the second major gold rush in the United States, I think, after Georgia. Which is in the eighteen thirties. Yeah. Yeah. People come by the tens of thousand. Yes. Yeah. To look for gold. Right. I I just, you know, and I I'm I I'll put it in the show notes, but Marie, I sent you, you know, I'm Canadian for people who've never listened to the podcast before. And one of the definitive moments in Canadian history is the Klondike Gold Rush. And it's you know, called the last great gold rush. in a lot of ways. And it takes place in northwestern Canada in Yukon territory. And you know, the the it has to be this massive state building exercise because it's, you know, tens of thousands of people show up in a town that used to have 50 and all of a sudden you have 150,000 people. What are you gonna do? Right. Right. Right. And like it's this just this crazy moment. And people come from all over the world. They drop what they're doing. Right. It really is rush. They because you want to get there first. You have to get there first. Right. And and you know, of course, for the most of the 49ers, by the time they got there, there wasn't, you know, it the big claims were gone. Right. Right. And once corporations come in, it's gonna be completely different. Well, and then they they bring in new minings. They they bring in like hydraulic mining and that kind of thing. And that just changes the whole setup. and you know, the notion of people panning for gold or using rockers for gold along the riverbanks is or the creek beds is just by you know, by the time the corporations come in, that's just that that's still gonna happen in some places, but it's increasingly remote. Right. Right. But I just the the journey, the decision to just go. Is amazing to me. Yes. And sometimes with their families. With their families. We're gonna go look for gold in California. Right. And and anyway, just that video, the reason I brought up that video that I in the show notes, which is about the Klondike Gold Rush. It's a short little documentary. done in the 1960s, I think. It It shows like I completely forgot what I was gonna This is the second time I brought up that point in order to in order to come to it in order to because I had something to say at each time I forgot. Well, it shows that state building process, right? In California it ha it happened so quickly in California. Like he talks about in this how they're they skip the territorial period completely because of the gold rush. Like they reach that population threshold so quickly. And I like chapter 11. And I think for our audience in political history, chapter eleven is where the meat really is because he said he's laying out how they establish their political system before there's a state constitution. So in these in these like little towns essentially that they create in these areas where you have all of these miners. They need some kind of political system. They need some kind of law for law and order because people are coming from so many different places. And so that's where they come up with their own system of government for better and for worse. But they come up with this system of government that people agree with and kind of agree to follow before you have the state constitution. And I think that's why he kind of takes the state building, the the technical state building out of this argument. Yeah. Is he saying that the gold didn't have much to do with that because that's coming later? Yeah, that's not dealing with the little claim laws, like l or like the claim laws and like the fact that again, you know, you we realize like whether it's on the journey there, you know, you're you're traveling in teams. So you have to establish kind of a rules of deployment. You have to establish like you know, you're you're gonna use some types of military order and it's just random people coming together to do this. Right. And then once they get to the the diggings and assuming people have their claims, like this is ways away from any any authority. Right. There's no real authority here. And so everything is informal. Right. And yet They establish some degree of of order. Right. Yeah, these camps are electing their own claims officers and they can repeal those claims officers and they can elect new ones if they don't like them. I mean, not to say that and he does include this, like law and order is relative throughout this on the journey. And once they get to the diggings, like that is these camps, that is relative. And there are people I mean eventually as you have a a rudimentary judiciary system, there are lynchings. There are extra legal murders and there are people who are on the way there completely left behind for various reasons. And so they don't always f like these laws are very these I hesitate to even call them laws, but these agreements between the minors are very flexible, but they exist. And the ideas behind them exist. And they have some legitimacy among the minors. Right. And that's the same thing. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. you know, and yeah, of course, that you know, you mentioned that i this is not perfect justice by any stretch of the imagination. one of the there's and he's got lots of great anecdotes about about this. So for instance, there's this one in s there's this one instance where there was a jury that that finds him that finds somebody not guilty of murder. And then somebody says, you might want to think this through again. Right. And 20 minutes later they return a guilty verdict and the person says, that's awfully good because we hung him an hour ago. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's happening. That's happening quite a bit. And to like he talks about the the lynchings in here. So you had the court cases, you had the rudimentary judiciary. I think they call them vigilance committees. If I'm not mistaken. So you had the vigilance committees, but they are sometimes hanging the wrong men or sometimes like it's competition as well. Like that's absolutely part of this is the competition for the best spots. And you also have a lot of like Native Americans and people from other countries are going to be disproportionately lynched or yeah, targeted exactly. And he talks about that. Yeah. Yeah, he doesn't you know, the language might not might not cut it in a twenty twenty-six graduate seminar. But the sentiments I think are are are are you know are pretty compassionate as a general rule, I would say. And and he does he you know, it it's not the focus, but at you know, he's got this great line where he's criticizing Turner. And he he says, you know, Turner says, you know, associates the frontier with the flourishing of American democracy. And he said, Yeah, that's true. If you were considered an American. Right. That's the key there. Yeah. Right. But if they didn't consider you an American, you were excluded from that and you were a potential victim of it. Yes. And you know, there's euphemisms in there, there's passive voice in there, there's all sorts of, you know, in the statement that, you know. Again, a a a critic in 2026 could could pick him apart for. But you know, if you can just move the aperture out a little bit, I I I mean, I think it's a he's making a very clear and compelling point. Yeah, yeah. And again, it's not the focus because the focus is on the state building and the society building of the primary society in California, of the primary legal society in California. But It it it is just it it does reiterate something that I think when we teach California history, and again, I don't what I've taught cali when I teach California history, it gets about five minutes in a lecture. So Right. The Compromont of 1850. Forty nine happened in the Compromont of 1850. It's taught from a national perspective. Yes. Right. But from the California perspective, which is what this book is so good about. And I I w really appreciate is that you have to grade on a bit of a curve when you're when you're assessing things that are happening there because there is no order, there is no authority. Right. rumor, rumor plays such an important role. And you know, all it takes is and you know, there's he he's there's this discussion you know, where the indigenous groups and the miners are, you know, whenever there's a there's a feud of some sort. Both sides don't really care if they have the guilty party. They just it's collective justice. Right. Right. And that's a consequence of, you know, again, the I know the term frontier is a is is a loaded term and but you know, forgive me for using it. But but life where there is little established authority and not much you can do about it. It's not like you can go to the sheriff and say, Hey, this is what happened. Right. you know, and share and the sheriffs that existed were you know Yeah, they were part of the depends on the other system. Right. Right. So it's a like it's it's a it's a it's in some senses it's an anarchic environment. I mean, in fact, I think in the start of that chapter, Coffee says, you know, this is man rising out of the state of nature. Yes, yes, yes. That's what he talks about is the state of nature and how they're kind of maneuvering that as more and more people come in. Right. Yeah. Man is a mer man has immersed himself into the state of nature and the diggings and now he's pulling himself out of it. Right. And you know, you gotta protect life, liberty, and property because you know, that property is awfully important. Exactly. Yes, exactly. In a way that these men had never come had never fully realized until they're digging for gold. Right. To make it, yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, you've got gold. Gold's only worth something to the person who possesses it. Exactly. So you are in constant fear that your gold is going to be that you're going to be robbed. Or worse. Right. Killed. Yeah. For it. And so yeah, it it it it does yi like a Habesian state of nate like a Hobbesian or Habesian state of nature. Right, right can't trust anybody and yet there is there's a recognition that we all kind of have these problems. And yes, there's some bad individuals, but collectively we can handle those bad individuals. Right. And then everybody can take their gold to the grog shop. Right. Right. And lose it anyway. Or at the Pharaoh. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Buy supplies that triple the quadruple the rate. Because that's who's making money. I thought he handled this so well too. showing who's actually making the money once the 49ers get there. It's not the 49ers. It's the people selling them supply. No, the right thing to do is to be the guy who happens to be right next door to the first person who discovers gold. Get your train in early and then buy things to provision miners. Right. Right then buy the bars and the saloons. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It's anyway, it's yeah it's it's it's I mean, in some senses, we all kind of know this. Right. anybody who's read anything about a gold rush in any sense kind of knows this, but it it is it's so good. The diaries are so good, the individual stories are so good, and the way he connects it. Admittedly, if you're gonna like I really do recommend reading this book. If if if you're interested in the California Gold Rush, it's it's a great book. I I'm sure there's better ones that have been written since. But it's a fun one at least. I think so. Yeah. you probably need a map. Yeah. To read along with the version I had didn't have a map. It was just an ebook, but it didn't have a map. Yeah. Maybe maybe in in its maybe in its proper published form it does come with come with some maps. Yeah. That definitely would have helped. I read the ebook as well. I'm wondering if maybe the updated versions had one. Maybe. Because that would have been yes, I agree. If you read the book, use a map. And try to find one from that era. If you're from Sacramento, maybe you don't need a map. Right. You know, you might just know these places because they a lot of them have turned into towns. Some are ghost towns, but a lot of them, you know, some of these these mine mining camps that turn into towns. so or you know, or there's a pass named after it or something like that, right? You probably, you know, you might you might know it. But if you're not from the area, I mean it's it's a little bit like, how far is that from San Francisco? How far is that from, you know, Stockton? I I don't know. so it's a little bit admittedly, I I s probably struggled with that reading this more than anything else. Anyway, he divides it between the northern diggings and the southern diggings and trying to really figure out what separated those two w I didn't really understand. but again, I I I don't I'm sure for people more familiar with the topic, it's it's not as that's not as big of a of a of a l of an obstacle. Right, right. Yeah, I didn't think about that even. I'd looked at it because I know nothing about California geography. And so I did look at it almost as probably too similar as I read through it. So a map would have been knowing the difference there would have been helpful. But he's writing this for a California audience. I mean, this is from the Chronicles of California. So knowing that they would have, or hoping, I'm sure, that they would have that background. Yeah. one of my favorite You know, we do this is a we do political history, right? One of my favorite sections of this book in the political history section of it was where when they're bored in like the winter at the camp, and there's these political processes, these these semi-serious political processes that play out that everybody basically knows is a joke, and they're having a rip-roaringly fun time with it. Right. And everybody knows it's a joke, but they're presenting it very seriously. Right. Just out of boredom. Right. You know, so for instance, one of the camps declares war on San Francisco. Declared declares independence. Right. And then declares war on San Francisco. Just because they can. And they go through the entire like legal process of it. You know, people debate whether we should do this and like and you could Totally see that happening over like in a winter in a work camp. Right. But there's evident to do. Right. Except think about those things. Except think about you're gonna stay. Yeah. You're not gonna leave your claim. Yeah. And so yeah, and and there's three or four examples like that, but I love the one where they decide to declare war on San Francisco and they make other outrageous claims and then they go about kind of half heartedly trying to accomplish it. Right. But like in such a way that I think everybody understood that this wasn't totally serious. so or he definitely makes it sound like they understood. But anyway, it was the there it just it tells you something about you know, in when we're bored, the amusements we seek. Right. Right. And the polit Especially go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, but the politics can be one of those amusements. Right. And has been forever. Right. You know, from the Saint Coulotte in Paris to the to the mob in Rome to every to to on almost every level, sometimes politics is i is an amusement. And in this case, fortunately, the stakes were not that high. In some in other cases they can become very high. Right. Which starts out as a la as a lark and can get violent. But yeah, anyway, I guess I guess that's my long way. I enjoyed the book and I think anybody who reads it, you know, maybe unless there's a really like in depth scholar of California history, and will find the and will immediately knows know the ways that coffee has aired. I think most people would enjoy it. Yeah, and there's a little bit of everything in here. I mean, obviously there's political history, there's economic history, social history, there's technical history. I mean, each chapter I mean, he tells this narrative throughout while sprinkling all of these different types of intellectual debates throughout. And so I I enjoy I mean, I'm not an economic historian, but I enjoyed it. I thought he explained it well. And I liked how at the end he does, you know, he lists the costs of things and he lists like he gives you this in depth idea of what these miners are living, like the area they're living in and what they're buying and what they need and how they're making these claims. And I think that I thought all that just brought the story to life even more. I liked that at the end he talks about how, you know, what many Americans would describe as civilization. So women, children, churches come later, like after the law is established. And he writes this as almost a footnote to the story. And it is if for what he's doing, it is the footnote. But he kind of caps it off with that. and says you would not have this without the gold, without the rush. You don't have, you know, what again, what many Americans at the time thought of civilization without that, the kind of anarchy, if you will at first. Yeah. I I mean Y it it makes sense that this is where state building has to come from. I mean, it's still like they're still figuring out at the national level the the the transfer of Mexico to the United States and California. and yeah, like It's this the thing is that a lot of the people who went there, right? The the tens of thousands of people who went there. Most of them never had the resources to get back. Right. Even if they got there, they they didn't, you know, they they probably intended, you know, they probably told their their wives and their kid or you know, their families, their friends, or whatever, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna make my riches, then I'm gonna come back. A lot of some came back. Most not rich. Some came back. No. But a lot stayed either by choice or by necessity. Right. And now you have a major population. Yep. Yeah. Ready for statehood. Yeah. And the railroad's right around the corner. Yes. Yes. Okay. Like, you know, and again, just you read these things, it's it's just amazing how you know, there's the sea voyages that people take. There's the land I think the land voyage is the most interesting for me, at least reading it. be There there've been like four books written on how to get to California and they're like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna figure out by reading these books. I know where the sun sets and I'm gonna go that way. Right. And I'm gonna get there somehow. And I got to a point and I'll just ask, I guess. I I don't know. And of course, most of these people have no concept of the distance involved. Exactly. Yeah. And what's in between? They don't know the environmental hardships they're gonna face. I mean, he talks a little bit about Death Valley in there. That's when it gets its name because they do not understand the environmental like that part of it as well as how far it is. And I think that he he he just does a really good job with those stories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, and you know, kind of purposely almost like half the book is taken up with people's journeys to get there. Right. And I think that just kind of reinforces this notion like that for a lot of people that was the adventure. And once they were there, they never this was the thing I was going to bring up from the documentary. Finally remembered. So for most people, they never actually bothered, you know, at least in Dawson City at the Klondike Gold Rush, most people got there never bothered to mine for gold. Mm-hmm. They like the achievement was getting there. Right. And that was sort of like enough for most people. And they'd set up shop and do something else or whatever. And I and you know, the same thing's happening in California. You know, obviously people are taking jobs. There's it's a new economy that's coming out, right? There's gonna be different types of opportunities and jobs. And you know, and anybody like I live for for twelve years, and in in a in a in a place that's an oil town. Right. And we were the you know, and north of us, four hours north of us, was the the Mecca of oil development in Canada. And the way to the way to get there was through Edmonton. We were the gateway. And so much of our economy was built on just assisting people going to work in the oil fields. Now they're not prospecting for gold. Right. But, you know, they're going to work there. And so I sort of and you know, so much of the West was settled that way. Yeah. And Arkansas, where I'm at, our economy was helped by the gold rush because people came through Arkansas for the Santa Fe Trail. And so we had this town right on the western border, Fort Smith, and people are buying supplies there because it's one of the last stops along the way. Now it's more than four hours. It's weeks and you know, months away from California, but that was kind of the jumping off point on the frontier. And so in a way, the gateway to the Santa Fe Trail. Yeah. We you know, it again, you you drive through these places now and it you you don't realize like how How sparse your opportunities were, you know. Right. now there's a Buckeys every twenty five miles. Yes. Yes. I'm surprised you didn't know what a buckies is in Arizona. We have one in Arizona. that's interesting. For some reason I thought it was the southern thing. It is a southern thing, but they they have one now. They made it to Arizona. They made it to Arizona. There's one in Goodyear now. and I mean I lived in Georgia for long enough. Right. That's true. That's true. I you know and I made my fair sh and and I've been to Texas enough times that, you know, had my fair share. Thoughts at Bucky's, but Yeah, sorry to get off on Bucky's, but No, it happens. It happens. for those of you who've never been, you've got to check it out. If for no other reason, you have to ch you have to see it. my goodness. Yeah. But but it actually th there is something that kind of links that, I think. I you know, be what we're talking about because there is this sort of In the West. you know, there is this sort of decadence living for the moment. And the South was the original West in a lot of ways in the United States. The cotton boom, I mean Arkansas, y you know, a lot of these places are are bounded and it's not a gold rush, but it could maybe be called a cotton rush. Right. Yeah. Right. and so we s and so many of these places are still w we're not that that many generations removed from it. You know, here in Air here in Phoenix, I can I you know, on the other day, I took two days ago, I took my kids to a little town called Tortilla Flat. It's like a ghost, not officially a ghost town 'cause six people live there, but it's basically a ghost town that has a saloon in it. We go ahead about a bite at the saloon and it's kind of cool, right? And they they they, you know, as you can imagine, there's a lot of catch. In order to bring the tourists in, and it's a lot of fun and the kids love it. And there's all sorts of little towns like that that at one point were kind of booming. Right. For whatever reason. Sometimes because of gold, sometimes for other for other reasons. Right. And you know, Tombstone, if people have ever been to Tombstone, you know, at one point it was considered one of like the major population centers in Arizona, in the Arizona territory. Delaunaga, Georgia. You know, this is a place now now it's kind of become it's a long way from Atlanta, but you could theoretic conceivably commute from there. But and you know, there's a big there's a college there, and so it it sort of developed this other identity. But you can still see that the legacy of those, of those rushes. And so much of American history, even though the gold the California Gold Rush is probably the most extreme version of it. But so much of American history is is it's fast. Yeah, yeah. It's a rush for opportunity. Yeah, that's it. Right? So much of this country is built on a rush for opportunity. And You know, the more you drive around it, the more time you spend in it, the more time you can see it. Even if it's been, you know, gentrified into something else. You can still see those foundations. And in Arizona, one of the things that's cool is so many of the towns, an hour and a half hour hour and a half have never been gentrified. Right. Yeah. Right. Some of them are straight up ghost towns and and others are and others have been are More likely to become ghost towns and thriving metropolises again. And I mean air and you know, and I know Arkansas has some of the same things. Right. Yeah. So Fort Smith managed to turn itself into a city, but they all but they all not all of them did. No. No, many did not. Still to this day. Yeah. But maybe but you know, maybe one day they'll all get a Bucky's. I hope not. All right. This is Marie, that this was fun. It was great to go through this with you. I encourage people to read to to pick up the book and learn a little bit more about John Walton Coffee. I know I know we both did and really appreciated it. For those of you who are Western historians, specifically California historians, you know, please accept our apologies. And feel free to engage and tell us where we got wrong. We'd love we'd love to know that. And we we'll we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. Yes. Bye.