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Man Made How We Designed A World That Leaves Women Out From Karen Korellis Reuther · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's a reason why we created aro dot net
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: a R r OE dot net because I'm a podcast listener.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be in the front
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: seat of your car or at work and all of
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: a sudden, that really cool podcast you've been digging for
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: the past couple of days. You're going, eh, I figured
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: it out. I'm bored. I don't know where to go now. Well,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: instead of jumping all over these other platforms searching for
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: something that's going to entertain you, just stay on arow
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: dot net because there are twenty different podcasts to choose
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: from a R R o e dot net. Enjoy your exploration, Karen,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you something as a guy, you know,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: and one of the things that I love about this
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: book is that it's so real and it's got to
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: be a part of our everyday conversation. Because you're so
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: right about this is that the world was designed with
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: women out of mind. And that upsets me. And I
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  Speaker 1: think it's because I'm a radio broadcaster and I feel
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  Speaker 1: like that there should be more women in this industry
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  Speaker 1: as well as there should be more decision makers in Washington.
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  Speaker 2: D C.
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  Speaker 1: There's got to be a shift here and it's going
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  Speaker 1: to take people like yourself to open up that door
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  Speaker 1: to say it's okay to walk through. You may rough
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: it up a bit, but let's do this.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. I appreciate that. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: in our built world, the products we wear, the products
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  Speaker 2: we use, the environments we surround ourselves with. As a designer,
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  Speaker 2: I know we can build things better.
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  Speaker 1: And in order to do that, though, it's going to
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  Speaker 1: take more conversation than that, because I mean, there's got
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to be an activation somewhere along the line. What are
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: you doing now that you've released this where people because
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be searching, they're gonna be going to chat GPT,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be going to Gemini, and it's like, okay,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: we got to have the right answers for them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I think that we have designed
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  Speaker 2: you know, Oh, it's so hard to just simplify, but
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  Speaker 2: we've been designing to a male standard forever, right since
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  Speaker 2: the mid eighteen hundreds when they started to measure human
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  Speaker 2: beings to create what was considered normal, and that guide
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  Speaker 2: sort of spreading far and wide has become sort of fact,
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  Speaker 2: even though we know that that's not the case, So
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  Speaker 2: I would say that as people start to get active
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  Speaker 2: and understand the space, you know, notice where the built
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  Speaker 2: world is not fitting, call attention to it. I think
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  Speaker 2: as women, we have become so accustomed to living in
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  Speaker 2: a world that's not designed for us that we ourselves
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  Speaker 2: don't know that it can be better, or we're hesitant
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  Speaker 2: to bring it up for fear of, you know, appearing
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  Speaker 2: to be complaining about something, especially if if you're one
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  Speaker 2: of only right. Like you said, in the business, there
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  Speaker 2: are still so few of us that you oftentimes don't
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: want to draw attention to your differences, where I like
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  Speaker 2: to say that your difference does not equal deficiency.
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  Speaker 1: See I see this every day at my other essential job,
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  Speaker 1: and it's with the protective equipment. And man, I'll tell
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  Speaker 1: you what more. People tell me to back it down,
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  Speaker 1: and I can't because when it comes to protective equipment,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: and I know in my own heart, and it might
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  Speaker 1: be the martial artist coming out in me, when I
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  Speaker 1: know that a woman who does not have the right
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  Speaker 1: protective equipment is going into a situation, it'say, no, do
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  Speaker 1: not do that. Let me do what I need to
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  Speaker 1: do with Let me put the stuff on and use
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  Speaker 1: the equipment because it's not fit for you. And then
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  Speaker 1: they're going, oh, you male, chauvinistic pig you and I
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  Speaker 1: swear to God, I'm not.
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  Speaker 2: Well. You know, we want to get women into those trades, right.
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  Speaker 2: My parents started a roofing company in northwest Indiana when
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  Speaker 2: I was a kid. You know, roofing is a tough business,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, we have we have a lot of
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  Speaker 2: need for skilled trades people and women should be able
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  Speaker 2: to fill a lot of these roles. But keeping them
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  Speaker 2: safe on the job is job one. So whether it's
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  Speaker 2: a pair of gloves that's designed to the anatomy of
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  Speaker 2: her fingers, or overalls that fit, or the ability to
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  Speaker 2: wear a safety harness that protects her, I want women
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  Speaker 2: in those fields to be able to unapologetically ask for
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  Speaker 2: that equipment. It does exist. It may not be operating
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  Speaker 2: on the profit model that we're used to right supply
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  Speaker 2: and demand, But my argument in the book is we
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  Speaker 2: need to demand and supply well see.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that also goes down to what we're
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  Speaker 1: wearing for clothes too, because everybody's dressed up in their
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: clown costumes for the business. And the thing is, though,
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  Speaker 1: is that if it is preventing you from making moves.
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  Speaker 1: Then we've got to get rid of the product. But
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  Speaker 1: they won't. And I see it every day with the
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  Speaker 1: women because they complain about it. It's like I can't
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  Speaker 1: move right, and I'm thinking that this has got to
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  Speaker 1: make a big change and growing and growing forward.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and we want women in those roles, right, we
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  Speaker 2: want that, we want their perspective in those jobs. And
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  Speaker 2: so to make to make it unavailable as for me
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  Speaker 2: as a designer, to have certain professions be unavailable because
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  Speaker 2: the equipment doesn't fit, right, I know we can do better.
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  Speaker 1: This is a shocker and it should be an eye
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  Speaker 1: opener for listeners as well as readers. Women are seventy
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  Speaker 1: three percent more likely to be injured in a car accident.
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  Speaker 1: And of course the guys are going, how how is
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  Speaker 1: that even possible?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it is possible, absolutely, because we're not and seventeen
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  Speaker 2: percent more likely to die as the result of a
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  Speaker 2: car crash. So our crash test dummies that we use
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  Speaker 2: to receive the en CAP five stars safety rating does
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  Speaker 2: not include an accurate biopidelic That means a designed crash
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  Speaker 2: test dummy based on a female physique. We do not
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  Speaker 2: use those crash test dummies to test. We have a
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  Speaker 2: version that we say is a Shrinket and Pinkett version.
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  Speaker 2: It's a male model that's been scaled down, and they
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  Speaker 2: use that to test for safety. But erro, they do
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  Speaker 2: not use it behind the driver's seat. So the only
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  Speaker 2: thing that's being tested behind the wheel, sorry, behind the wheel,
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  Speaker 2: is a mail crash test dummy. And so that's why,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I get into my car and my safety
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  Speaker 2: belt just nerves me right because it's cutting me at
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  Speaker 2: my neck right, it's sitting in an area that's very
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  Speaker 2: uncomfortable for me. My husband doesn't have to deal with that.
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  Speaker 2: I know that airbag has been you know, set to
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  Speaker 2: a male a male standard, and that it's going to
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  Speaker 2: hit me different when it's deployed. I'm driving a bigger
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  Speaker 2: vehicle where I need to pull myself up closer to
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  Speaker 2: the wheel and sit higher, which puts me in what
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  Speaker 2: the car industry likes to call an out of position driver.
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  Speaker 2: But how can fifty percent of the population more women
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  Speaker 2: getting their driver's license now than men, How can a
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  Speaker 2: woman be considered an out of position driver?
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  Speaker 1: See and oh my god, and correct me if I'm
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  Speaker 1: really wrong here, But I'm dealing with this even today,
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  Speaker 1: where it's a man's world and not a woman's world.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason and this goes all the way down
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  Speaker 1: to what we're dealing with this morning, this real id
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  Speaker 1: that we're supposed to have. The guy can walk in
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  Speaker 1: there with all the right information, you know, you've got
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  Speaker 1: his birth certificate and stuff like that, but the woman
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  Speaker 1: has to prove everything, her whole entire process of birth
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  Speaker 1: to where she is, every name changed. I'm going, well,
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  Speaker 1: that's just unfair. I mean this is more than just
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  Speaker 1: the workplace, this is everywhere we go. It is just unfair.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, difference doesn't equal deficiency, right, We're different
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  Speaker 2: and we're smart enough to realize in this dy and age,
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  Speaker 2: with technology available to us, that we can make things
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  Speaker 2: designed for our differences versus some artificial average.
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  Speaker 1: What have you learned from doing this project, because I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you got almighty. You have done some serious research here
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  Speaker 1: and it's got to scare you as well.
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  Speaker 2: Well it scares me. But I'm also really optimistic because
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  Speaker 2: I think there's a role for everyone y in making
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  Speaker 2: it better and that you know, not just as a
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  Speaker 2: designer or the students that I teach, but if I'm,
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  Speaker 2: if I'm a consumer, I can understand that by raising
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  Speaker 2: this issue, that women men can become activists in this space.
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  Speaker 2: When something doesn't fit, we can call attention to it.
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  Speaker 2: We can call attention to the many products and places
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  Speaker 2: now that are starting to surface that aren't designed not
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  Speaker 2: just for women but also for men. Right, that it
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  Speaker 2: can be profitable to design for both. That that makes
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  Speaker 2: me very excited. I think as a consumer we can
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  Speaker 2: speak our agency to spend and to buy and to
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  Speaker 2: use what fits us properly. I think as designers we
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  Speaker 2: can invent better. We can invent better, We can ask
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  Speaker 2: for better design briefs. We can innovate based on all
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  Speaker 2: the new technologies and prove that we do not have
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  Speaker 2: to design for some artificial average, right. We can design
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  Speaker 2: for differences versus artificial averages. And lastly, you know, if
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  Speaker 2: I'm if I'm somebody in the C suite and I'm
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  Speaker 2: looking to make investments, I say, bank on women right.
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  Speaker 2: Every example a bank on women. Right. We may have
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  Speaker 2: to reimagine what profitability looks like, but it's still going
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  Speaker 2: to be profitable and half the planet is going to
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  Speaker 2: be better off.
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  Speaker 1: Please do not move. We're actually really just getting started
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  Speaker 1: with Karen correll Us Reuter. We've got more coming up next.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the book Man Made, How we designed
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: a world that leaves women out and how we can
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  Speaker 1: make it right. We are back with Karen correll Us Reuter.
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  Speaker 1: Do you ever sit back when we talk about these changes,
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  Speaker 1: because I mean, first of all, you inspire me by
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: this book because I live it so therefore and to
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  Speaker 1: see somebody even talking about it it is just so inspiring.
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  Speaker 1: But of course I have to think about, oh, what
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: about mister wonderful on Shark Tank, because you know what
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: he's going to say, how much is changed going to cost?
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do? And yet you could
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: walk into a radio station studio and see that that's
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: a man driven world only because the earphones don't fit
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  Speaker 1: and the chairs that women have to sit in are
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. I mean, it goes as far as that
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  Speaker 1: it is everywhere, and you're giving us the opportunity to
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  Speaker 1: see it. It's always been there, but we've been blind
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  Speaker 1: to it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we've been blind to it, and when we haven't
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: been blind to it, we've talked ourselves out of it
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  Speaker 2: for the very reason that you just meant the cost.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: So I said, yeah, it does oftentimes in the business
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: world go back to go back to the cost. But
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: what we have to understand is that all business and
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not I'm not saying I can speak
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: to the profit and laws statements of companies, but all
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: businesses are looking in the rear view mirror, right, how
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: did we perform last quarter? How did we perform last year?
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: All of that is based on the status quo. And
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: the status quo is mail. So if that's the only
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: thing we use success to measure success is profitability, and
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  Speaker 2: compared to years before, we'll never be able to make
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  Speaker 2: the changes. We'll never be able to make the investment
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  Speaker 2: in the technologies or to create a separate product line
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  Speaker 2: that fits women's bodies. So I say we have to
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  Speaker 2: challenge the status quo. And my argument is we need
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  Speaker 2: to end normal. There is no normal, there is no average.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god, there's your brand new merch right there.
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  Speaker 1: You could sell that we need to in normal. Oh
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: my god, you could market that. Oh there's something to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: be said right there.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I like that if ending normal can help keep
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  Speaker 2: women more safe and get them into roles and that
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: have not been designed for them by simply giving them
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  Speaker 2: the equipment and the respect they need. Sign me up.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there's one thing here that this is a
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  Speaker 1: dose of reality that we all deal with on a
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  Speaker 1: daily basis. And this goes all the way back to
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  Speaker 1: my martial arts training as well, and that is when
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  Speaker 1: it comes to CPR training, it's not a woman, is it?
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it a guy?
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  Speaker 2: I think my research uncovered that only five percent of
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  Speaker 2: mannequins used in CDPR training are representative of the female anatomy.
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  Speaker 1: And that's scary only because I can still hear my
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  Speaker 1: martial art master tell me. He says, what you think
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  Speaker 1: that in the real world that the guys are just
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: going to take care of the guys, You know, you
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: got to take care of the women as well. And
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: he was the one that opened up my eyes on
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  Speaker 1: learning how to do CPR for women. And you just
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: didn't think that it was going to be different. But
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: when it's really physically happening, it can be a very
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable position for guys because you're touching somebody you.
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  Speaker 2: Do not know absolutely and by standard hesitancy is one
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  Speaker 2: of the reasons why fourteen percent fewer women received by
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  Speaker 2: standard CPR. But it's mostly a hesitancy because they have
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  Speaker 2: not been trained on a female body, so they're afraid
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  Speaker 2: they might be doing something wrong. There are good Samaritan laws,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: though I would really like to say that, like, no
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  Speaker 2: one should feel hesitant to help anybody as a good Samaritan?
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  Speaker 1: Am I being selfish here when I say this? Reminds
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  Speaker 1: me so much of back in the nineteen seventies when
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I was a lefty and there were no left handed scissors,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and my father goes, well, then you've got to be
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: a righty and so therefore that's I spent my entire
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: childhood trying to be a right handed person, and I stayed.
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  Speaker 1: And I feel like that that's what's happening here. We
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: are forcing women to go into a man made world
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  Speaker 1: and they have to stay there until, you know, just
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  Speaker 1: get used to it, just do it well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I use that example also in the book Arrow.
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  Speaker 2: It is a lot like being a lefty forced to
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: use right handed products. You know, the only different diferences
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  Speaker 2: that we've become so used to it that we've become
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: immune to it. So when something is tough, you know,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: if you're using equipment on a construction site. Oftentimes something
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: is designed for the grip strength of a man and
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to be operated with one hand, when a woman needs
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: both hands to operate that. So I know as a
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: designer that we can design that piece of equipment so
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that she can use it with one hand as well,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: and he'll probably be happier too.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: So in the process of growing forward, because you know
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: how businesses are, we've all been in those conference meetings
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that and they're talking about safety and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: they're going, Okay, we're going to make it a good
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: company so that new people can come in, and then
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: somebody always has to bring up so whose department is
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: this coming out of? And it's like, oh my god,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: you had to break it down to that. Do you
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: find yourself arguing when you go to these conference meetings?
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  Speaker 2: You know, I find myse self sometimes disengaging a bit
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: because I have had have had those conversations, and I
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: would say that if I was back there, right, if
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I was back in a C suite again, I wouldn't
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: let myself disengage. I would hold on right. I would
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: white knuckle these conversations because these conversations are so important,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: whether it's arguing over procurement right supply and demand volume discounts.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Whether it's arguing for something that really needs a policy change,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: like the CPR mannequins you brought up for me, shouldn't
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: it be? Isn't this the role where policy can help
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: to say, if you are providing CPR certification, people need
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: to be trained on male, female and children full stop.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And then also just around power and leadership. You know
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the rooms that we're sitting in when we do make
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: it through the labyrinth and we do end up in
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: the C suite, they are still so few women in
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: those rooms, and I just say, we need to look around,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: we need to bring more women in. It's about gender
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: diversity in design and design for gender diversity. So I say,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we have to hang in there, right, We
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: have to make this argument and hopefully there are enough
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: facts in the book and so many other people will
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: bring examples to light that we can start to use
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: real facts to say this is why we need to
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: make a change.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: This is a scary thought here, and I mean it
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: as a positive more than the negative that a lot
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: of people are gonna hear when I bring it up,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and that is is that suffering a pelvic fracture in
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: our US military. It's like, you know, it's like when
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you see a stop sign, and it's like, how many
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: people have to be killed on this corner in order
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: to put a stop to put a stop light in?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It's to me it's the same thing when it comes
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: to suffering a pelvic fracture. How many people have to
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: be injured before or something has to happen.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Well. The example of the pelvic fractures in our women
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: in the military was especially saddening to me because these
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: are women that put their lives on the line right
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: for hours and you know, suffering that number of pelvic
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: fractures because you've been put into the wrong boots, because
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: you are carrying a backpack that is designed for the
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: male anatomy and you're being measured on a stride length
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: that pushes you to the limit was very upsetting because
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: they're all it's all fixable, right, This is all fixable,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: and it does not make our female military any less
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: qualified to put them in a boot that fits. They
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: can carry the weight, but the weight needs to be
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: in a pack that has been designed for the fact
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: that she has breasts and her hip structure is different.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And the stride length is the sort of marching stride
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: length that is very very fixable as well. Other countries
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Australia and Ireland have fixed that and found the number
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: of pelvic fractures for their female service women to have
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: gone down. I don't know if we're going in that
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: direction though, right so. I think we need to understand
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that this is common sense in a lot of cases.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And I want women to be as comfortable as they
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: can be asking for what they need, and I know
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that's easier said than done.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: I just did a big report on iHeartRadio yesterday that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: was based on where are the Rebels today? And you're
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: one of them, and because it really does point to
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the picture of the person that is doing something that
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: through books, through writing, through conversations, and that's the new rebel.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you have to go stand out
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: in a corner and make a bunch of noise. You
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: are creating a wave or a trickle that's going to
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: become a wave that's going to become a big change
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: in this country. I'm so proud of you for having
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that curry and just say yeah, I'll talk, I'll write
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: about it. Let's make it happen aar.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That was the compliment of the
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: highest order for me. I really appreciate that.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Well, you got to come back to this show anytime
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: in the future because evolution happens every day and we
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: need you to let us know where we can go
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and grow together.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I would be happy to anytime.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you