Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / Internal conflict between acceptance and an authentic life, with Jamal Collins

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Internal conflict between acceptance and an authentic life, with Jamal Collins · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:00
  As God intended.
• 0:02
  Let's go.
• 0:19
  You are listening to America Out Loud News Radio.
• 0:23
  This is your man Monk, and I have a very special guest with me today.
• 0:27
  Dear friend of mine, Jamal Collins, aka.
• 0:32
  What's the AKA, Jamal?
• 0:36
  Skinny boy.
• 0:37
  Skinny boy.
• 0:39
  Which is pretty ironic that you have that nickname, uh, because you're a professional bodybuilder.
• 0:50
  Pretty pretty funny for a bodybuilder to have, right?
• 0:54
  Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 0:55
  Well, how do you how that even come to be?
• 0:59
  I know how it came to be.
• 1:02
  How did that come to be?
• 1:04
  Well, I mean, for one, I've been on the skinny side all my life.
• 1:08
  Um, but that name actually came about.
• 1:13
  Ah, let's see.
• 1:14
  So back in when was that?
• 1:16
  2018 or so.
• 1:20
  Did my first bodybuilding competition.
• 1:22
  Uh because of you.
• 1:26
  Oh, you don't say.
• 1:29
  Yeah, I had to throw that in there, right?
• 1:32
  Um and after the show, I had a colleague from work who watched who watched some of my story on Instagram.
• 1:43
  And for months after the show, she kept just saying telling me how skinny I was and how skinny I was, and and that I shouldn't be a bodybuilder and I shouldn't do this, and I shouldn't do that.
• 1:52
  And she knows what bodybuilders look like.
• 1:54
  And it literally, she was like, every day I saw her is like a it was to a point where I didn't want to see her.
• 2:01
  I'd walk into the office and try to avoid her.
• 2:04
  Um but it kind of I was like at a point where I just was needing to embrace it.
• 2:11
  Plus, I had a I had a different Instagram handle, which wasn't very useful.
• 2:19
  So you and I were on a conversation.
• 2:22
  We're like, you gotta change this name.
• 2:25
  And eventually that's that's the one we like fell on, and it was like, okay, this is this is what it is.
• 2:32
  It's gonna be skinny boy.
• 2:33
  So it's so amazing to me how I don't know, maybe some women don't think that calling somebody that is actually bodybuilding skinny, how that can be offensive.
• 2:46
  You know, it'd be like trying calling somebody that's trying to lose weight, you know what I'm saying?
• 2:52
  A derogatory like type of word, like we don't want to hear that.
• 2:57
  That's the last thing a body viewer wants to hear is they're skinny.
• 3:01
  Right.
• 3:03
  But anyways, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background before we get started.
• 3:08
  You know, this is all about health, so and you are a very healthy person, so let us know about you.
• 3:14
  Appreciate it.
• 3:15
  Um little bit about myself.
• 3:18
  Let's see.
• 3:19
  I am let's see.
• 3:24
  40, I'm gonna be 47 this year.
• 3:30
  I can't remember now.
• 3:32
  Um47 this year.
• 3:35
  Uh so grew up in California in the 80s in Oakland.
• 3:42
  Uh see, went to high school and Union City, which is this little city or south of Oakland.
• 3:48
  Um and college stayed in the same area as well.
• 3:53
  I've worked in higher education for the past 24 years.
• 4:00
  Um, and also on top of that, I do some coaching and training outside of that still in the bodybuilding world.
• 4:10
  Um, yeah, so that's that's me professionally, and and uh just a little summary of my life, if if I had to put it like in in a couple sentences, and a couple sentences, right?
• 4:28
  Of course, you get into the details and it's it it the devil's in the details, right?
• 4:35
  Tell tell us a little bit how it was growing up in Oakland back in the day, and I know a little bit of history about your family as well.
• 4:41
  How did that how did that shape the way you viewed the world?
• 4:46
  You know, it's interesting.
• 4:48
  Um I often wonder if I was kind of in a bubble.
• 4:53
  I grew up I had a big family, so both of my parents uh had nine siblings, so there were a total of 10 kids on each side, and all those siblings had kids, so I had tons of cousins, and it felt like when I think of back to it, it felt like as a kid, every weekend it was just family.
• 5:16
  We were always together.
• 5:18
  Um and even though it was Oakland in the 80s, and it was you know, drug epidemic happening.
• 5:26
  I don't feel like I even though I knew things were happening or I was aware of what was happening.
• 5:33
  I didn't feel like it really affected me as much.
• 5:37
  And I think part of that is just the protection that both my parents like created around me and my environment.
• 5:45
  Um, so I mean, I was mugged for the first time.
• 5:48
  I think I was six or seven.
• 5:53
  Hold up, six or seven, get mugged at six or seven.
• 5:57
  That's when you know you are living in a rough city.
• 6:02
  Six or seven-year-old usually doesn't get mugged, right?
• 6:06
  Right.
• 6:06
  Well mugged.
• 6:07
  I I didn't get beat up, but you know, they stole my money.
• 6:10
  So it was it was very interesting.
• 6:12
  So we lived across the street from a liquor store, and I have my little money to go get candy, and so my mom let me go across the street, because from where we lived, you could she could watch me.
• 6:23
  Um as I was there, some of my cousins' friends saw me, stopped me, and start taking my like pull my money, the money that I had in my hand out of my hand, and I'm like, you know, and then of course they're much bigger than me.
• 6:41
  I'm a kid, and they're like teenagers, and so I'm there crying, and I run back home.
• 6:45
  My mom's like, what's wrong?
• 6:47
  It's like those guys, they stole my money Jamal, they didn't pick you upside down and shake you.
• 6:52
  No, they didn't they didn't harm me physically.
• 6:56
  I think they didn't because they knew my dad.
• 7:01
  But yeah, I don't think he would have gone for that.
• 7:01
  But um, yeah, I don't think he would have uh gone for that, but they did take my my little five dollars that I had.
• 7:06
  But they did take my my little five dollars that I had.
• 7:09
  And five dollars back in the 80s was a lot of money.
• 7:09
  And five dollars back in the 80s was a lot of money, yeah.
• 7:12
  Yeah, it was.
• 7:12
  It was, yeah, it was for sure.
• 7:13
  Yeah, it was for sure.
• 7:17
  Yeah.
• 7:17
  Yeah, so that you mean that was kind of my experience growing up in Oakland.
• 7:18
  So that you mean that was kind of my experience growing up in Oakland.
• 7:22
  Um I went to schools, you know.
• 7:22
  Um I went to schools, you know.
• 7:26
  I most it was a predominantly uh African American.
• 7:26
  I most it was a predominantly uh African American area, even though I went uh one of the schools I went to, uh, they actually did a lot of bilingual studies, so I got to learn quite a bit of Spanish.
• 7:40
  Um but yeah, you know, I got to see the full gamut of like the really smart people who look like me and the really not so smart people who looked like me who were doing stupid stuff.
• 7:53
  So having that, and I guess living in that, like I didn't know any different.
• 8:00
  So when we moved to Union City, I was it was kind of a culture shock.
• 8:04
  I was like, what?
• 8:04
  Where are the black people?
• 8:08
  So yeah, and it was that's just right down for those that don't know, that's just right down the freeway.
• 8:14
  Literally 15 minutes from very close.
• 8:17
  Yeah.
• 8:18
  How did you not get caught up in everything that was going?
• 8:22
  Most everybody gets caught up or had got caught up in, especially in the 80s because of the drug epidemic.
• 8:30
  How do you not get caught caught up in that it's everywhere, it's all around you.
• 8:38
  I think part of it, part of it was my parents.
• 8:41
  Uh the other part was I was very like there was something, I don't know what it was when I was a kid, but I knew when something just wasn't right.
• 8:55
  And I'd watch my cousins and my uncles who were close to my age doing and getting into things, and I was like, yeah, that's not what I want for myself.
• 9:06
  That's that's I envisioned something different.
• 9:10
  Um I just was never drawn to anything that was dangerous.
• 9:20
  So, you know, and and part of that, I think, you know, growing up in that area, although my parents did teach me a lot about watching my surroundings and doing all these things, but they they also taught me to be very independent, and I think that kind of translated into not just being independent as a person, but thinking individually and independently as well.
• 9:44
  And you you lived in the Oakland area, so you know that there is uh a big wealth disparity, like you know, you got the flatlands, which is where I grew up, and then you got the hills.
• 9:59
  And my parents allowed me to adventure and like go out and explore different parts of the city.
• 10:08
  So I knew that there was something more out there, like not everybody lived the way that we lived.
• 10:14
  Um not that they were better people, because a lot of those folks who had all that money, they got it in shady ways.
• 10:22
  Uh but there were there was just an understanding that uh you should be following your own instincts when it comes to things.
• 10:36
  Um part of that too is like see even seeing my dad.
• 10:39
  Um, he what I think I was I was in elementary school when I uh my uncle picked me up from school, took me home, and my I get to our apartment that we were living in at the time.
• 10:54
  I was an only child at that time, and I see the doors wide open, the apartment is ransacked, there are people in there and uniforms, and I like I identified them as off police officers, and my dad is there handcuffed at the table.
• 11:12
  Um then eventually he was arrested, and I didn't see him for quite some time.
• 11:19
  So I had examples of what not to be doing.
• 11:25
  So I I'm trying to read between the lines.
• 11:28
  So what you're telling me is you can finish that.
• 11:38
  I I chose not to follow the examples that were placed in front of me.
• 11:43
  No, when you said I seen some people in uniforms, uh-huh go through the house in my dad in handcuffs.
• 11:52
  Uh-huh.
• 11:52
  If you didn't say what really happened.
• 11:55
  Oh, well, well, I mean, you know, wait, hold on.
• 11:58
  And then you didn't you said, and I didn't see him for a while, but you didn't actually say what happened.
• 12:04
  You know, what happened?
• 12:06
  He went on vacation.
• 12:10
  He went off to the island for a while.
• 12:12
  For those that are listening, he may not have been incarcerated for extended period of time.
• 12:21
  It was essentially it was a drug raid.
• 12:26
  Um and my dad was essentially he was basically a kingpin, and I didn't know this.
• 12:36
  Um, but he was very involved in the selling of narcotics.
• 12:41
  And that's so interesting to me because you always give your parents credit for keeping you out of that, and when he was fully in it.
• 12:48
  Yeah, and he kept he made it so that I had no idea, other than when he got caught.
• 12:57
  Oh, that's interesting.
• 12:59
  Because we didn't even we didn't live like he didn't, he was, I would say he was very smart in the fact that he didn't spend all this money and live this like fancy lifestyle, even though he was bringing in all this money.
• 13:16
  So I had no clue.
• 13:18
  We were still, you know, even though I didn't know what poor was.
• 13:20
  I mean, I was a kid.
• 13:22
  We didn't have access to you know, social media where you could compare.
• 13:27
  Um, so it was just like that was just normal life for me.
• 13:31
  But you never wanted for anything for sure.
• 13:34
  No.
• 13:36
  No.
• 13:37
  And how long did he how long was his vacation?
• 13:42
  I don't really remember exactly, but it felt like a very long time.
• 13:47
  Like I remember it was just me and my mom for the longest time, or what felt like years.
• 13:52
  You know, when you're a kid, it's like everything feels like it's forever.
• 13:57
  It's like you're in a car ride and you you're only going 15 minutes away, but it's like, are we there yet?
• 14:00
  15 minutes away, but it's like, are we there yet?
• 14:03
  So it felt it felt like a very long time.
• 14:03
  So it felt it felt like a very long time.
• 14:06
  So it's just you and your mom, and uh you do have siblings, right?
• 14:06
  So it's just you and your mom, and uh you do have siblings, right?
• 14:09
  Siblings, right?
• 14:09
  Siblings, right?
• 14:11
  I do, but they're quite a bit younger than me.
• 14:11
  I do, but they're quite a bit younger than me.
• 14:13
  So my my well, my brother's seven years younger than me, and my sister's 10 years younger than me.
• 14:13
  So my my well, my brother is seven years younger than me, and my sister's 10 years younger than me.
• 14:18
  So yeah, I was I was still pretty young at that point.
• 14:18
  So yeah, I was I was still pretty young at that point.
• 14:21
  So it was before they came around, and they have no idea, they have no clue of that experience, and the experience.
• 14:21
  So it was before they came around, and they have no idea, they have no clue of that experience and the experience I had with my parents.
• 14:31
  They came up at a different time when things were a bit more stable.
• 14:35
  We had moved out to Union City.
• 14:36
  It was yeah, I always say nobody gets the same parents.
• 14:42
  Right.
• 14:43
  Everybody's a we uh we we grew up in the same household.
• 14:46
  Why do we think the move so different?
• 14:48
  Because nobody gets the same parents, right?
• 14:51
  Your your siblings got uh probably a more uh responsible parent after the vacation and not wanting to put you know children in that position because that really hurts whether or not it was intentional, it still has effects, right?
• 15:10
  And what was that effect on you, your dad being gone like that?
• 15:15
  Um I had to think about it.
• 15:20
  I mean, like I always felt like me and my dad kind of had there was a strain in our relationship, and I don't think it was because he went away, but I I think he thinks that maybe because of that that I grew up to be who I am today, as far as it sounds like you're gonna tell us something when we come back from as far as like my sexuality.
• 15:48
  Okay, you know, the idea that you know, oh, because I I spent so much time with my mom that all of a sudden I have an attraction amen.
• 15:56
  He here's the thing about that.
• 15:59
  Most of us didn't have our fathers in the picture.
• 16:04
  I I don't think I knew, I think I knew one or maybe two kids that had their fathers in the picture.
• 16:10
  Everybody no one else had fathers, yeah.
• 16:12
  Either incarcerated or dead, yeah.
• 16:20
  Um, yeah, so it's very interesting.
• 16:24
  I want you to uh when we come back from break, I want you to elaborate on that and how that affected your you and your father's relationship, and what did he think about that?
• 16:39
  And is he really accepting of that?
• 16:41
  You know, all the questions that people want to know because it's important, you know.
• 16:47
  I'd have a parent accept you as a child, uh is it has to be like damaging, you know, like as far as like what am I worth?
• 16:59
  Am I worth even right?
• 17:02
  Am I worth anything?
• 17:04
  But we'll talk about that when we come back from break in just a minute.
• 17:09
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• 19:06
  And you are listening to America AfterLab News Radio with your host Monk, and we have a very special guest.
• 19:14
  We've been talking with Jamal, skinny boy, Collins.
• 19:20
  And before the break, we were talking about your dad.
• 19:25
  And first of all, you're talking about your sexuality.
• 19:30
  Again, we don't we don't try to dis dissect hidden messages.
• 19:37
  So tell us what you're talking about, Jamal.
• 19:42
  Well, uh just to put it plainly, I'm getting.
• 19:47
  Now we got that out the way.
• 19:50
  So your relationship with you and your dad, you had mentioned that your dad basically blamed himself for not being there, and that's why you are the way you are.
• 20:00
  So I think he he may have felt some level of responsibility because he was absent for a bit of time.
• 20:10
  Um I don't know if he would necessarily admit that.
• 20:15
  I think he also may have known, like even uh when I was younger.
• 20:20
  Like I think he like had it, had an idea even beforehand that I was.
• 20:27
  Um I felt like I was always treated.
• 20:32
  Well, before I had uh my brother the way he was with my brother to compare, I felt like I was always kind of treated a little differently, or I should say after my brother came around.
• 20:45
  Um I really kind of noticed that there was a difference and the upbringing.
• 20:52
  How so?
• 20:58
  Uh very they were very strict with me.
• 21:00
  They were very strict with me.
• 21:01
  Uh, especially my dad.
• 21:02
  Especially my dad.
• 21:03
  He was very like I could I had to be perfect.
• 21:03
  He was very like I could I had to be perfect.
• 21:08
  Like I give me an example.
• 21:08
  Like I give me an example.
• 21:11
  Um I was a A B student in school, and I remember I was in middle school or junior high school in Oakland.
• 21:13
  I was an AB student in school.
• 21:16
  And I remember I was in middle school or junior high school in Oakland.
• 21:23
  This is before we moved.
• 21:23
  This is before we moved.
• 21:25
  Um, and I got this in.
• 21:26
  And I got this English teacher that was just awful.
• 21:32
  He the highest grade he gave was a C.
• 21:36
  And so he gave me a C.
• 21:38
  And my dad went to the parent teacher conference.
• 21:43
  And that was my first time ever getting a C.
• 21:46
  And I was like devastated.
• 21:48
  I was just like, what?
• 21:51
  I worked so hard.
• 21:52
  Um and I was in all these other advanced classes that I was excelling in.
• 21:56
  I'm like, this is English.
• 21:57
  That's easy.
• 22:00
  Um I remember after leaving that teacher conf or that parent teacher conference.
• 22:08
  My dad was the only one that went.
• 22:10
  I think my mom had to work that night.
• 22:12
  My dad literally says to me, don't ever embarrass me like that again.
• 22:16
  And I'm like, what?
• 22:18
  What did I do?
• 22:21
  And then years later, my brother, we moved at that point.
• 22:26
  We're in the suburbs, and my brother's in first grade.
• 22:30
  And he had barely passed anything.
• 22:34
  And I think one time he brought home, uh, it was his report card.
• 22:40
  This is maybe his second or third year in school.
• 22:43
  And he had all C's, and they posted his report card on the refrigerator.
• 22:49
  Just very proud.
• 22:55
  Now I mean, I I wasn't great at school either, but I don't even think I'd have been happy with all C's.
• 23:04
  I mean, maybe a D and a B, you know, not all C's, but yeah.
• 23:10
  Yes.
• 23:13
  Yeah, a lot of times though, to be fair, the first child is treated differently because there's nothing to that's your first try at it.
• 23:24
  So maybe he's like, well, I was too hard on Jamal.
• 23:30
  Am I gonna be as hard on his brother?
• 23:34
  I don't know.
• 23:36
  The way we've had I've actually had conversations with my dad about this, and he's like, Well, you know, you guys are two different people, so we we treated you differently, and like, yeah, we were different people.
• 23:48
  I was like, but I just got I had no room for error, which you know, in a lot of ways almost uh has in some ways I think stunted some of my growth.
• 24:06
  It's like I couldn't I couldn't make a mistake, I had to be perfect all the time.
• 24:11
  Um, and so in my younger years, before I like really kind of dealt with it, it was like that was the thing.
• 24:18
  I had to be perfect.
• 24:19
  I can't I can't mess up.
• 24:22
  If I do, it's it's like life is over, basically.
• 24:29
  So yeah.
• 24:32
  Well, I think that kind of translated into your bodybuilding uh work ethic, I think.
• 24:39
  Because when you you went all the way in, and you're I mean, you're still all the way in, you know, just working super hard for me.
• 24:48
  It was kind of like uh for you, it's like, man, like you are really went 100% into it.
• 24:56
  Well, you know, I find that when I find something that I really enjoy and love, it doesn't feel like work.
• 25:05
  So for me, that's the bodybuilding is like that's fun stuff.
• 25:08
  I get to I get to do that, it's fun.
• 25:12
  Um, even with coaching and training people, I'm like, oh, this is fun.
• 25:16
  I don't like I don't rely on it for anything financial, so it's like I I have my job, that's what I have to do.
• 25:27
  I get to do this, and that's kind of where I think that's kind of the or part of the reason why um I put so much time and energy into it, and I've just gotten to a point in my life where I'm looking for things that um, or I should say I'm allowing myself to explore things that feel right to me that that have that alignment with and doesn't feel like I'm even though bodybuilding to me is very hard, it can be a it's for most people they're like I can't believe you live like that.
• 26:07
  Um but it aligns with structure and discipline the way that I the way that feels comfortable for me, um, even though it's not it's not the most comfortable when you're in it.
• 26:23
  I don't know, I how do I explain that it is so uncomfortable, but you know, I I have found, and this I I will attribute to you um a deeper meaning in it.
• 26:39
  Uh and part of that was how uh part of that came about because you introduced me to meditation, and for me going to the gym is meditative.
• 26:55
  I don't have I don't have any distractions, I don't have headphones.
• 26:59
  It's literally when I'm sitting in a set and I'm going through it, I'm focused on one thing, and everything else disappears, and in that moment, it's like all the noise goes away, and that's where that's where all the things that I need to hear actually come to me.
• 27:26
  Yes, indeed, I feel that 100%.
• 27:31
  Yeah, anything can be meditative, your whole life can be that way, like from taking a sip of something to feeling sensations on your skin be completely present with it.
• 27:46
  Now, I'm gonna backtrack this a little.
• 27:48
  So now you and your dad's relationship, he totally accepts you for who you are, and he doesn't blame himself anymore for how you are.
• 28:00
  You are.
• 28:05
  Yeah.
• 28:05
  Yeah, uh, so he let's see.
• 28:06
  So he let's see.
• 28:08
  It took us a while to get to where we are today.
• 28:08
  It took us a while to get to where we are today.
• 28:12
  Um I will say when I first told him, which was I was in my early 20s, he thought it was something like that I had been molested or something when I was a kid, none of that ever happened to me.
• 28:13
  I will say when I first told him, which was I was in my early 20s.
• 28:20
  He thought it was something like that I'd been molested or something when I was a kid.
• 28:25
  None of that ever happened to me.
• 28:27
  It was I was too protected for anything like that to happen.
• 28:27
  It was I was too protected for anything like that to happen to me.
• 28:33
  And eventually over the years, like he just I my dad was my both my parents are very religious.
• 28:41
  So at first, this was like an issue for them because their religion doesn't really accept homosexuality.
• 28:50
  Or it's a sin.
• 28:51
  And um, and that's part of the reason I don't go to their church.
• 28:56
  But um over the years we've had conversations around it.
• 29:04
  Um, and I don't hide anything from them as far as like if I'm in a relationship, it's like if you guys want me around, the person I'm with is you gonna have to, they're gonna be around.
• 29:16
  Otherwise, I won't be there.
• 29:18
  Um I know we've had conversations where he told me, well, they'd rather have me in their lives and not.
• 29:27
  Um over the years, we've had conversations about the whole choice versus um if that's just the way you were born, and he's made comments to me about oh, you know, that lifestyle that you chose, and I'm like, Well, I didn't choose it.
• 29:44
  Um it chose me.
• 29:50
  It's just what works for me.
• 29:52
  Um since then, like, you know, I'm like I'm dating someone now, and he has come around, and my my parents, both my parents, but my dad in particular, I mean, it's been very welcoming, you know.
• 30:06
  He and he's never really been um I would say rude or anything like that to anyone I've ever dated that I brought around.
• 30:15
  He will talk to them, try to get to know them, um, interact with them, you know.
• 30:22
  So it's it's never that's never been an issue.
• 30:25
  And I think over the over time, he is he's more just concerned with the fact that I'm happy and I'm healthy, and doesn't really worry about anything beyond that.
• 30:39
  So yeah, that's beautiful.
• 30:41
  I I love to hear that when people are starting to see things differently.
• 30:46
  I couldn't even imagine if say the it was reversed, and being with a woman was not what was I was supposed to do.
• 30:56
  You know, like how could I what would I do?
• 31:00
  How would I feel about that?
• 31:02
  Because I've been attracted my whole life to women.
• 31:05
  I knew as a little kid, I didn't know what it was, but I wanted to be around the pretty girl.
• 31:12
  I didn't know what that was.
• 31:13
  It's in you.
• 31:15
  I truly believe is in you.
• 31:18
  Why would you choose to have a more difficult life?
• 31:21
  Because it's a more difficult life.
• 31:23
  That doesn't make sense to me.
• 31:25
  Well, I'll just choose to be this thing that makes my life much harder.
• 31:28
  Maybe I'll lose my whole family over it.
• 31:31
  Yeah, I'll make that choice.
• 31:32
  That doesn't make any sense to me.
• 31:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 31:36
  That reminds me of uh when I was a kid, because I I had a lot of, like I said, I had a lot of cousins and young uncles, and so we'd all spend time together.
• 31:48
  And I remember watching um, I don't know if it was MTV or something like that, but it was a there was a Jody Watley video on I'm aging myself here.
• 31:59
  Uh it was uh I think new love or whatever her big hit was, and she's wearing this like uh little skirt, and all my cousins were just like, oh man, she is so fine, she is this, she is that, and I'm like, what?
• 32:16
  I don't get it.
• 32:21
  Yep, that part.
• 32:23
  Yeah, I was not feeling any of those things.
• 32:26
  Right, and you're like, uh, what are you looking at?
• 32:28
  Uh so you know, as a young person, I don't see how people don't cannot recognize that.
• 32:38
  Of course, some people experiment with stuff as they get older, but whatever they are, I think it just comes it's it's with you, yeah.
• 32:49
  What whatever it is, and to not have someone that made you not accept you is yeah, I couldn't even imagine that.
• 32:59
  Yeah, and I'll say I didn't have it as bad.
• 33:02
  Like I have plenty of friends who were completely disowned by family that they never talked to, or they had to live completely in the closet.
• 33:12
  So they're living two lives, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing that.
• 33:17
  That's a horrible way to live.
• 33:19
  It's unhealthy from all standpoints, um, unhealthy, just be you, and and that's why I think a lot of people migrate to um cities that welcome them instead of coming, you know, a lot of people were born in these places where like you're shunned if you are if you have uh if that's what you do, right?
• 33:39
  Or who you are, you're shunned, they don't even want you there.
• 33:42
  So you have to move over to someplace that it's accepting of that, and then I think freedom, a lot of freedom comes with that.
• 33:50
  If you're born somewhere in the Midwest in a small town where you know everybody's talked about you in a negative way, or you had to hide who you are, I get yeah, I'll say, you know, I I was very fortunate in a lot of ways, uh growing up in the Bay Area.
• 34:10
  It it even though I I wouldn't say it was like you know, anybody wanted that for their child or anything like that, but it was more socially acceptable, especially being so in such close proximity to San Francisco.
• 34:25
  Um I mean, in my high school, we had a this is before I even came out, there was a rainbow pride club.
• 34:33
  How old were you when you made it public?
• 34:37
  I was so I considered telling my parents my coming out.
• 34:43
  Um, and that I did that when I was 20.
• 34:49
  Yeah.
• 34:49
  I know that was his they was just they you know, I they had an idea.
• 34:57
  It was like because I was living that kind of like, oh, I'm dating guys, but I don't want them to know.
• 35:00
  Oh, I'm dating guys, but I don't want them to know.
• 35:02
  But I and I was in college and I was living at home, and it's like I was at home, and sometimes I was not at home.
• 35:02
  But I and I was in college and I was living at home, and it's like I was at home, and sometimes I was not at home, and you know, weird strange guys calling one guy was uh the first guy I've ever dated.
• 35:09
  And you know, weird strange guys calling.
• 35:16
  One guy was uh the first guy ever dated.
• 35:20
  He like called this is before everyone had cell phones, so call the landline, and I'm at home and
• 35:20
  He like called this is before everyone had cell phones, so called a landline, and I'm at home, and he's like, you know, I guess he'd been trying to call, and I wasn't there or whatever, and so he gets all worried, and he's like, you know, my mom's like, oh, it's some guy calling for you, and he's like, Oh, I miss you, and this and that, and blah blah blah.
• 35:44
  I was like, Oh, I miss you too.
• 35:46
  And I'm like, trying to like not let my mom here, but she heard, and um, of course, I wasn't ready to share at that point, but she told my dad, and of course, my dad came and asked me.
• 36:00
  I'm like, no.
• 36:03
  So when you're saying it, it wasn't the kind of I miss you like when we talk.
• 36:07
  It was it was something different, yeah, different energy to it.
• 36:12
  It was probably more like it was probably more my response that my mom picked up on it was so like why are you because I wasn't comfortable with him saying that to me at that point?
• 36:29
  Hey, hey, you you were the one acting weird.
• 36:31
  I was that's but we gotta talk, we're gonna shift gears a little bit, and we're gonna talk when we come back from break.
• 36:40
  We're gonna talk about this health journey.
• 36:44
  Okay, from where you were, because I seen the pictures on where you were to where you are now, it's just an incredible transformation, and we'll talk about that in a minute.
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• 38:43
  Skinny boy.
• 38:44
  What's going on?
• 38:46
  Um I can sit here and talk to you all day.
• 38:48
  You don't never call no more.
• 38:50
  You you don't come out and visit.
• 38:52
  I need to stop because I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna take this in the wrong direction.
• 38:55
  This is gonna go in the wrong direction.
• 38:57
  I was just talking about you yesterday.
• 39:00
  I gotta make my way to Phoenix this year.
• 39:02
  That's what I'm saying.
• 39:04
  But anyways, I digress.
• 39:10
  And you was pretty out of shape.
• 39:13
  Uh you you had the skinny fat look.
• 39:21
  Am I am I accurate?
• 39:23
  Yeah, I I would say that's 100% accurate with 20 arms with a belly.
• 39:28
  My accurate, okay, I look fine in clothes, but you know, oh, yeah.
• 39:34
  As soon as that waist trainer came off, it's all bad, huh?
• 39:39
  Yeah, all right.
• 39:41
  Well, tell me about that because this was the catalyst for you.
• 39:47
  You're really your whole life changing.
• 39:50
  Yeah, it actually um I would say I was around 34, and I I would say up until my mid-20s, I was pretty active.
• 40:01
  I'd go to the gym every now and then.
• 40:03
  I wasn't working a program or anything, but I was you know, I was an athlete in school, um, which was another reason why, you know, the whole gay thing was like I think a little bit of a surprise.
• 40:13
  I wasn't uh I wasn't the your tip, I guess you're stereotypical, but I digress.
• 40:21
  Uh I would say um probably in my mid-20s up until my mid-30s, I really kind of slapped off from doing anything really physical.
• 40:34
  Um, or I wasn't consistent with anything, and my 34th, shortly after my 34th birthday, I went and got a physical.
• 40:44
  Um, and at that point, you know, I was eating a lot of pasta, I was part owner of a restaurant that was Italian, and so our whole thing was uh research and development.
• 40:56
  We're going out to a restaurant, and so we went out to restaurants all the time, and that's the kind of food I was eating at the time.
• 41:03
  Um and I ate everything, it wasn't I had no restrictions at that point, but I wasn't like 300 pounds, I was still you know, relatively I was skinny, I was just my body composition was like we're more on the fat side than the lean mass side.
• 41:24
  Um but anyway, I go get a physical, my doctor's like, oh, I'm 34 years old.
• 41:31
  She's like, Yeah, your cholesterol's high, your blood pressure's high, your borderline pre-diabetic.
• 41:39
  You need to stop eating carbs.
• 41:41
  I'm like, okay, I don't know what that means because I'll I just eat food.
• 41:47
  What is a carbs?
• 41:49
  So I started to educate myself on different types of foods.
• 41:56
  Um I cut out carbs, that didn't seem to have any effect on my health markers and in any kind of way.
• 42:00
  Effect on my health markers in any kind of way.
• 42:07
  Um then a friend of mine, well, a guy I was dating at the time introduced me to uh he had me, he was vegetarian at the time, and he was like, Oh, you're gonna watch this movie forks over knives with me.
• 42:07
  Um, and then a friend of mine, well, a guy I was dating at the time introduced me to uh he had me, he was vegetarian at the time, and he was like, Oh, you're gonna watch this movie, forks over knives with me.
• 42:21
  And I'm like, Okay.
• 42:21
  And I'm like, okay, and we watch it, and of course it was like devastating.
• 42:23
  And we watch it, and of course, it was like devastating.
• 42:27
  It's like, oh my god, I was like, I can't believe all of this stuff.
• 42:27
  It's like, oh my god, I was like, I can't believe.
• 42:31
  And basically it was a it was a film, um talking about the different uh about animal agriculture, and like gave you like the real truth around those things, and and also there was uh I believe some stuff around health and the consumption of uh animal products as well, and so I was like, Well, I can't go fully vegan, I'll go vegetarian.
• 42:59
  I was like, I love cheese, and I can't give up cheese, I love eggs, I can't give up eggs.
• 43:04
  So, you know, the whole uh story that most people still tell me to this day when they find out that I'm vegan.
• 43:13
  Um, and I did it for I would say four months, and then I back I did a little black backslide, and I was off and on for a bit, and then I got to a point where I was just like, I just need to cut everything out.
• 43:30
  And I think that was probably a few years later, so I was around 37.
• 43:34
  I did that, went fully vegan, um, was eating mostly fruits, vegetables, like anything I can buy at the at Berkeley Bowl, which is like this great supermarket in Berkeley, California.
• 43:49
  I was eating.
• 43:51
  Um went back to the doctor probably six months after, and everything, all my health markers went back to normal.
• 43:59
  My doctor was like, What's going on?
• 44:02
  What are you doing differently?
• 44:03
  I was like, Well, I cut all animal products out of my diet, and she's like, Well, you know, you can eat animal products.
• 44:10
  I was like, Yeah, but it seems to be working well for me, not right, yeah.
• 44:16
  It's like just because you can doesn't mean you should.
• 44:20
  Um, and in that time, I was I started going to the gym and just training, um, not really knowing what I was doing.
• 44:29
  Uh and I would say, probably toward I had set a goal for myself at that point, and I gave myself three years.
• 44:36
  It was like by 40, I'm gonna be in the best shape of my life.
• 44:39
  And this kind of tells you or just shows you now looking at it in hindsight, how you put something out there, and you you just work towards it.
• 44:50
  You don't necessarily have a pathway, like a clear path, but you just start taking steps, and then eventually the the universe starts to conspire to uh help you get to where you want to go.
• 45:07
  So it was like I got even though I'd met you before, I got reintroduced to you during that time, and that connection or reconnection was what actually helped me get to my goal.
• 45:24
  Your suggestion of competing, which I was just like, I don't know what that even is.
• 45:28
  What does that even mean?
• 45:31
  Admittedly, was the thing that changed that just kind of propelled me into where I am today.
• 45:42
  It's it, but it was it was not just um it wasn't like I said, it wasn't like this clear path.
• 45:50
  Like I didn't know where this was gonna take me.
• 45:52
  I didn't know where I was gonna end up.
• 45:55
  It was just like I just had to not resist and be at a point of saying, and when I met you and you were like doing this, I was like, even though that sounds really uncomfortable, I'm gonna say yes.
• 46:08
  And look at me now.
• 46:10
  It's like you remember when I told you, I said I told you it's uh you were working out.
• 46:19
  Uh-huh.
• 46:20
  This is training.
• 46:22
  There's a difference.
• 46:23
  Yes, absolutely.
• 46:25
  There is a difference.
• 46:27
  Yeah.
• 46:28
  I was just very unintentionally just moving weight around.
• 46:32
  Yes, there was no, there was no, you were not focused on certain things with intensity.
• 46:41
  You were just kind of it was too broad of a uh you just a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of that, and there was no focus.
• 46:55
  You had your eyes on too many prizes, you didn't have it on the prize.
• 46:59
  So when you learned how to do that, it was over for the game, period.
• 47:05
  And even when you started uh posing, I'm like, oh, you really taking it serious.
• 47:11
  Because to me, I'm just like, I'm gonna do little four poses and get off the stage.
• 47:15
  You was up here doing all types of different stuff.
• 47:18
  I said, okay.
• 47:35
  And so even with the poses, like, I need to if I if I'm gonna do this, I was like, I want to be one of the best, and that's gonna require me to because I'm awful at it right now.
• 47:47
  Like, I remember I can't even flare my laps.
• 47:51
  I'm like, what does that mean?
• 47:54
  Make your back big.
• 47:56
  What's that?
• 47:56
  Make your back big.
• 47:57
  That's what it means.
• 47:58
  It's like, I don't know how to do that.
• 48:00
  What do you mean?
• 48:02
  Um, but it was like, yeah, once once I and I will say with that, it the training, the posing, you have it.
• 48:14
  There's a different level of like I I have this in my head, like I there's this friend of mine that were a former friend who was very book smart.
• 48:24
  He's like, Oh, people who go to the gym are dumb.
• 48:26
  And I'm like, no, they're not, they're intelligent in a different way.
• 48:30
  Maybe, and maybe they have books books marts as well, but they can connect with their physique in ways that people who don't go to the gym or who've never applied those types of focused lifting techniques.
• 48:44
  Um they can't do it.
• 48:47
  And so we do a lot of um tearing people or tearing things down.
• 48:55
  I mean, we do this with animals, you know, those animals are stupid, these are smart, they're just smart in a different way.
• 49:00
  They're just smart in a different way.
• 49:02
  I think about fish.
• 49:02
  I think about fish, like people are like, oh, fish are dumb.
• 49:03
  Like people are like, oh, fish are dumb.
• 49:04
  I'm like, yeah, you try living in the water.
• 49:04
  I'm like, yeah, you try living in the water for like you can be the dumb one.
• 49:11
  Like, you can be the dumb one.
• 49:14
  Right.
• 49:14
  Right.
• 49:14
  You'll see how long you can breathe underwater.
• 49:14
  Let's see how long you can breathe underwater.
• 49:17
  Right.
• 49:17
  Right.
• 49:18
  So with with with it's just this mind-body connection that takes place when you start to train.
• 49:18
  So with with with it's just this mind-body connection that takes place when you start to train.
• 49:27
  Like you you can understand how everything.
• 49:27
  Like you you can understand how everything works together as far as your body.
• 49:33
  You know that the way you say the knee bone connect to the, you know, that thing they used to say back in the day.
• 49:38
  It's like you know how your body works when you spend time with it like that.
• 49:43
  Yes.
• 49:44
  Absolutely.
• 49:45
  And this, I mean, literally, this is this is your vessel in this life.
• 49:50
  It's like, you know, people take care of their dogs better than they take care of their bodies.
• 49:55
  Because they love their dogs more than they love their bodies.
• 49:58
  Right.
• 50:00
  A lot of people are lacking self-love, so they they give their love away because they don't know how to turn it back to themselves.
• 50:09
  Maybe it's uncomfortable.
• 50:12
  It is.
• 50:13
  It is.
• 50:14
  But once you sit in it, and there's nothing like it.
• 50:20
  There really isn't.
• 50:24
  And it fills your cup so that you can give it, give that extra to others.
• 50:32
  Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
• 50:35
  When it overflows within you, it's like it touches and affects everybody.
• 50:39
  Right.
• 50:42
  We haven't even got to like, what do you do for a living besides besides uh being a wonderful human being?
• 50:50
  What do you do for a living?
• 50:52
  Because what you do for a living also has a huge impact at least in this country, right?
• 51:00
  Do you go to are you just in California?
• 51:03
  Just in California.
• 51:04
  Okay, so let's say in this world, people in California, they will eventually spread out to the rest of the country and the world, but you help people with financial aid help students.
• 51:15
  Yeah, so I am I'm a program and policy analyst at the University of California system.
• 51:23
  So that's people are like, oh, you work for UC Berkeley, and like, no, I work for all of those campuses.
• 51:31
  So we have 10 campuses throughout the state.
• 51:34
  Um, I'm at the system-wide headquarters.
• 51:37
  Uh, and my portfolio includes pretty much everything that has to do with helping students fund their education.
• 51:46
  So financial aid compliance, financial aid outreach and communications, veterans' education benefits, and then that cross path between financial aid support and what is now known as basic needs support.
• 52:01
  So pretty much anything that has to do with students receiving money to help them go to college.
• 52:08
  Uh, especially well, because I'm working for the University of California, students from California, helping them get their undergraduate degrees.
• 52:17
  Uh, it falls into my area.
• 52:22
  Now, let's just say that I was thinking about going to school.
• 52:30
  Can you shoot me some money?
• 52:34
  I wouldn't personally give you money because I don't have some money.
• 52:41
  But you know, I I would do everything I can to help you get the money that's available for you.
• 52:47
  And the money that is available is zero.
• 52:52
  There's money out there, there's money out there.
• 52:54
  But just not in my situation, yeah.
• 52:57
  Yeah, it could be though, it depends.
• 52:59
  And you know, a lot unfortunately, a lot of things, because we deal, I mean, the federal government funds their financial aid program, and there's a lot of cuts that are happening to that right now.
• 53:11
  The state of California for California residents, and unfortunately, you you moved away.
• 53:19
  I would say the state does a really good job.
• 53:22
  Um they could do better, it could always be better.
• 53:26
  I mean, uh just more investment in student financial aid programs, but that I would say California has one of the best public programs for financial aid for students to attend college and the state.
• 53:44
  Um, I mean, our students, we have a cow grant program, and our students receive over a billion dollars in cow grant funding every year.
• 53:54
  Plus, the university of California, you know, puts another billion dollars out there for uh that gets spread across our undergraduate population.
• 54:03
  So because of that, like people are like, oh, you see, it's so expensive.
• 54:07
  Like, yeah, for some people it is.
• 54:09
  Um, but for most California students, they're not even paying tuition because of the financial aid that they're getting from these financial aid programs that are available to them.
• 54:19
  You know, each uh, of course, she's going to Brown, but she got a full ride to cat Berkeley.
• 54:25
  Yeah, I can see that.
• 54:27
  She's she's amazing.
• 54:30
  That's your niece.
• 54:31
  Yes.
• 54:32
  You've been known each since he was knee-high to a grasshopper.
• 54:35
  No, I'm like, what?
• 54:36
  I mean, the last time I saw her, I'm like, who's this girl woman?
• 54:40
  Right.
• 54:41
  Well, we don't even have time to get into that story, but that was funny.
• 54:44
  You're like, who who did they bring?
• 54:46
  Oh, that's that would be your niece, sir.
• 54:50
  It just looks different.
• 54:52
  Yeah.
• 54:53
  We got a couple minutes left.
• 54:55
  Um, what is the message that you would want to give to the world?
• 54:59
  What is the message you want to give to the world?
• 55:06
  The message.
• 55:08
  The message.
• 55:13
  The message that I have is I think a lot of we're uh we're kind of programmed to seek money and material things.
• 55:32
  And my message, the thing I have learned, or the thing that I've been leaning into, and I'm finding really helps me, is not those outside things, it's finding my peace within.
• 55:49
  So, you know, I yes, money is nice.
• 55:53
  You need it to live.
• 55:54
  Um, but you know, if I if I go, I can go out right now and buy something that's very expensive, and it'll make me happy for a little bit, but then it'll wear off.
• 56:00
  And it'll make me happy for a little bit.
• 56:02
  But then it'll wear off.
• 56:06
  So, what I'm finding myself doing is eliminating the need for material possessions and being happy and finding peace.
• 56:06
  So what I'm finding myself doing is eliminating the need for material possessions and being happy and finding peace.
• 56:24
  Oh man, that's beautiful.
• 56:24
  Oh man, that's beautiful.
• 56:26
  Thank you, skinny boy.
• 56:26
  Thank you, skinny boy.
• 56:28
  Listen, Jamal.
• 56:28
  Listen, Jamal Collins.
• 56:30
  I appreciate you.
• 56:31
  I love you, brother.
• 56:32
  And we're gonna have to have you come back on again and speak your truth.
• 56:37
  My pleasure, man.
• 56:38
  Thank you.
• 56:39
  Thank you.
• 56:39
  I love you too.
• 56:40
  Thanks for uh including me and thinking about me for this.
• 56:44
  This has been great.
• 56:45
  Of course.
• 56:46
  Peace and blessings, everyone.