Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Cop sues Netflix over 'Making a Murderer' series; Steven Avery still holds out hope for freedom

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Cop sues Netflix over 'Making a Murderer' series; Steven Avery still holds out hope for freedom · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: dot com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hundreds of thousands
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: of people are calling for the pardon of a convicted
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: killer after the Netflix series Making a Murderer exposed possible
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  Speaker 1: flaws in the case that put him behind bars. If
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  Speaker 1: we have Stephen Avery, and Making a Murderer tells the story.
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  Speaker 1: If Stephen Avery, he's the Wisconsin man who served eighteen
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  Speaker 1: years in prison for rape before being exonerated in two
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  Speaker 1: thousand and three, we the jury find the defendant guilty
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  Speaker 1: of only to find himself in prison again on a
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  Speaker 1: murder conviction in two thousand and seven, Allude how to
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  Speaker 1: handle it. Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities
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  Speaker 1: who lied and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where
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  Speaker 1: he needs to be, in prison. I think he was innocent.
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  Speaker 1: Is innocent? Okay, I'm quite sure why people believe Stephen
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  Speaker 1: Avery is innocent, other than watching a Netflix special and
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  Speaker 1: actually believing it. In the last hours, bombshell documents filed
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  Speaker 1: insisting Avery is innocent? Will he get a new trial?
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  Speaker 1: But this is what I know. Stephen Avery's own family
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  Speaker 1: and friends, own blood relatives and friends. Because I questioned them.
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  Speaker 1: Myself saw him the night photographer Teresa Hallback was murdered
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  Speaker 1: and her remains burned in Stephen Avery's back yard, in
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  Speaker 1: his fire pit where he worked at its auto salvage place.
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  Speaker 1: They saw his own blood relatives and friends saw him
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  Speaker 1: stirring the fire into the night, the night that Teresa
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  Speaker 1: Halback was murdered, and police find her teeth and the
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  Speaker 1: studs of her Daisy fluintest blue jeans she was seen
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  Speaker 1: wearing the last time she was seen alive in his
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  Speaker 1: fire pit. It's not police saying he was out there
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  Speaker 1: stirring up her bones until they burned away. It wasn't
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  Speaker 1: an investigator or somebody want to frame him. It was
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  Speaker 1: his blood relatives and friends that saw him stirring her
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  Speaker 1: remains in his fire pit in the back yard. Not
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  Speaker 1: only that he lied right to my face about that night.
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  Speaker 1: Why lie about it if he's telling the truth. Listened
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  Speaker 1: to what he told me on hl N, Steve, and
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  Speaker 1: I understand at Teresa came to your auto salvage lot
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  Speaker 1: to take photos for the auto trade or correct, yes,
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  Speaker 1: she did. She came down by me. Okay, and Stephen,
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  Speaker 1: is my understanding that also you say that you saw
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  Speaker 1: her car leave, Yes, I did, about what time between
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  Speaker 1: she was there between two and two thirty two thirty
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  Speaker 1: in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen, how is it that her
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  Speaker 1: car could get all the way back in this pit
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  Speaker 1: area where there is uh well, I believe we're showing
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  Speaker 1: it right now. I mean, wouldn't you have to pass
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  Speaker 1: back by the office again? Well on the outskirts up
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  Speaker 1: the office ottawise back by me or back by Dan's
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  Speaker 1: pitt in the corner is all open. It's all open
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  Speaker 1: so you can drive in there, mister Avery. Did you
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  Speaker 1: see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well,
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  Speaker 1: Dursday night, me and my brother how to go TERMINI
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  Speaker 1: to pick up some more with the five bed, and
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  Speaker 1: I've seen day lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: we turned around and we went back there. Talcu parked
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  Speaker 1: on the side and I took the flashlight out of flatbed. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: And I looked around by me and behind me, but
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  Speaker 1: I didn't see that. He told me to my face.
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  Speaker 1: Teresa was there there at his auto salvage pit the
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  Speaker 1: day she goes missing. Around two o'clock, he concealed his
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  Speaker 1: identity with Star sixty seven to call her twice to
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  Speaker 1: get her to come over, and then called her after
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  Speaker 1: he kills her, letting his identity show up on the
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  Speaker 1: phone records, going hey, you never showed up what happened?
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  Speaker 1: But then fast forward he tells me she came, So
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  Speaker 1: what's the cover up about? I'm Nancy Greece. This is
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with me
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  Speaker 1: right now. In addition to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: forensic expert Joe Scott Morgan, North Carolina family and divorced
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: lawyer Kathleen Murphy with me now is retired reporter from
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  Speaker 1: the Appleton Post Crescent and the Gannette, Wisconsin Newspapers, John
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Lee John, I am still, you know, flummixed that people
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  Speaker 1: actually believe Stephen Avery did not kill twenty seven year
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  Speaker 1: old Teresa Halback. Hallback had gone to his auto salvage
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  Speaker 1: business before, and she said he came to the door
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  Speaker 1: dressed in nothing but a towel and made passes at
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  Speaker 1: her and totally creeped her out. In fact, the day
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  Speaker 1: she went back, it's for like a penny pincher where
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  Speaker 1: you go take a picture of the vehicle, and you
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  Speaker 1: sell it. It's like a newspaper, a penny pincher. That's
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  Speaker 1: you find him in the front of grocery stores, in
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  Speaker 1: those racks. She said she did not want to go
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  Speaker 1: back because he creeped her out, but she needed the job,
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  Speaker 1: so she went back. It says after he had come
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  Speaker 1: to the door practically naked and made passes at her,
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  Speaker 1: and she said she was going to go in and
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  Speaker 1: get the picture and get out as fast as she could.
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  Speaker 1: Not only that, the fact that her teeth and her
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  Speaker 1: the studs off of her blue jeans were found in
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  Speaker 1: his fire pit, that he had been stirring all night long,
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  Speaker 1: her car parked at the edge of his salvage lot,
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  Speaker 1: covered up with limbs and other pieces of cars. His
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  Speaker 1: DNA his DNA inside her car, and I believe it
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  Speaker 1: was sweat DNA. Can just see him hunched over the
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  Speaker 1: steering wheel after he killed her, trying to hide her
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  Speaker 1: car and getting sweat DNA in the car. Also, we
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  Speaker 1: know that he would star sixty seven his number, block
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  Speaker 1: his number, and call her repeatedly before she got there,
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  Speaker 1: asking what are you going to be here, calling over
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  Speaker 1: and over, and then after she had gone there, he
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  Speaker 1: called her. If you hear what he told me on
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  Speaker 1: HLN that she left round two thirty. He called her
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  Speaker 1: after that saying where are you? Why haven't you shown up?
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  Speaker 1: Clearly that's alive. Why would he call her the same
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  Speaker 1: day after he tells me she's already left and leave
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  Speaker 1: messages saying, hey, where are you? Aren't you going to
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  Speaker 1: show up? What about that? You know it's getting to
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  Speaker 1: the point, and you can see it in other areas
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  Speaker 1: where people believe what they want to believe. They don't
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  Speaker 1: look at facts. They don't look at a trial transcript,
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  Speaker 1: they don't look at the twenty months of court hearings
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  Speaker 1: we had leading up to trials. They believe what I
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  Speaker 1: call the Avery pr Firm and made this documentary. They
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  Speaker 1: believe stuff that Kathleen Zeller, Avery's current attorney is throwing out.
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  Speaker 1: And basically she's just throwing a lot of stuff on
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  Speaker 1: the wall and seeing what's I can't read a thousand
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  Speaker 1: page filing from her because I read one or two sentences,
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  Speaker 1: and I've got ten questions and ten ways to reject that.
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  Speaker 1: If people look at a few of the examples in
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  Speaker 1: the book that prosecutor ken Kratz wrote, and now if
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  Speaker 1: they look at some of the facts mentioned on the
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  Speaker 1: editing and comparing tryout transcripts to the mocumentary in the
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  Speaker 1: civil suit that Andy Colburn filed this week. It just
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  Speaker 1: shows to creative editing and propaganda that's in making a murder.
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  Speaker 1: But you just can't argue with people about it when
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  Speaker 1: they don't have an open mind and they won't look
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  Speaker 1: at facts. I don't know what you can do. Well,
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  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, I want to follow up
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  Speaker 1: on what you just said, John Lay joining me. You
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  Speaker 1: retired from Ganette Wisconsin Newspapers, a retired Wisconsin active has
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  Speaker 1: just sued Netflix over in their Stephen Avery making a murderer,
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  Speaker 1: portraying him the detective as a corrupt police officer who
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  Speaker 1: planted evidence to frame an innocent man. Now, remember when
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  Speaker 1: you sue somebody for defamation, being oral or written, that's
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  Speaker 1: libel or slander. You have you yourself have to take
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: can take the stand. You can call them to the
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  Speaker 1: stand if you believe that they have defamed you too.
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  Speaker 1: John Lee, reporter who covered this at the time, John Lee,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: what is he? The former man into wat County Sheriff's
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  Speaker 1: detective Andy Colburn, claiming ah he's claiming that he was libel.
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  Speaker 1: His reputation was ruined because of Elijah, the inaccurate, inaccurate
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  Speaker 1: portrayal of him and making a murderer. Here's a guy
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: when before this, before making a murderer came out? Google
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: is all name in it? Two entries come up. Um,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: the last time you googled it before the lawsuit was filed,
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  Speaker 1: something like one point eight million references to him came out.
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  Speaker 1: She's gonna revisit one thing when you're in the bedroom
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  Speaker 1: and didn't and you cut her throat. Previously you said
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  Speaker 1: that you even thought she was alive. Is that still
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  Speaker 1: your thought on that? And why was that? Because she
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  Speaker 1: was breathing a little bit, she was like trying to
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  Speaker 1: not trying to breathe this. How does she going, I'm
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  Speaker 1: screaming screaming lost? She was screaming a lot? Or wasn't
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  Speaker 1: she was when you cut her throat? Was she screaming
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  Speaker 1: when you cut her throat? Because when you're screaming a lot,
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  Speaker 1: you like you're breathings off? R home, explain that a
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  Speaker 1: little bit. You said she was screaming off. When was
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: she screaming off like while you were doing it? After
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  Speaker 1: you did before he did it before when you cut
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  Speaker 1: her throne? What was she doing if anything like screaming
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  Speaker 1: for help and crying? I want to I want to
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  Speaker 1: get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying
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  Speaker 1: when you cut her throne? Yeah, when did Steven choker
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: or strangler like a little bit after Well, let's let's
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  Speaker 1: just go back a little bit, Okay, tell us what
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  Speaker 1: exactly happened to her? What order had happened? He said,
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  Speaker 1: there were basically three things prior to you guys shooting her.
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  Speaker 1: Explain those in the order that had happened. Starting less,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Well we got in the role. Yeah, what what you
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: guys did to her? It's sex with her? Okay? Then
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  Speaker 1: he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's
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  Speaker 1: here Stephen? Okay? And then what and co s felt? Okay?
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  Speaker 1: And he chalked toncuff her here? Okay? So he chalked
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: her after you cut her throat. You know, I was
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: just sitting here listening to Brendan Dassy, that's Stephen Avery's nephew,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: describe what was done to twenty seven year old photographer
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  Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback. And I had the same reaction I often
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: did in court as I listened to or read murder confessions,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and I found myself physically turned away from this microphone.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a swivel chair, turned away with my
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: hand over my eyes because I just could hardly stand
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to hear it. But it's true. And I remember sitting
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: in court where I couldn't turn away or put my
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: hands over my eyes. I had to sit there and
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: stoically look forward or look at the jury as this
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: was coming into evidence. And I got to ask you,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, you probably tried as many cases as I have,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: or investigated as many during your practice. When you hear
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: a statement like that, as I say, rich in detail,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: that was true. Nobody was putting those words in Brenda
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Dascy's mouth. That is what happened. He's too simple minded
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: to make up or fabricate a story of that nature
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: and going through the timeline the way he did. This
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: girl was lured to Stephen Avery's home. She was brutally
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: raped by chained to a bed, brutally raped by two men,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: her hair chopped off with a knife. She was stabbed
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: her as she screamed for help. Her throat was slashed.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: She was strangled and ultimately shot with a gun by
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. The bullet with her brain matter, her DNA
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: on It was found in Stephen Avery's garage. And to
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: believe that the police framed Avery, you would have to
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: believe that they killed Teresa Halback. Let's follow through. The
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: defense claimed that he was framed. When people come up
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: with these claims, I say, Okay, let's let's go with it.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Let's explore it, let's follow it through. So you would
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: have to believe police kidnapped and murdered Teresa Hallback, shot
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: her in the head, got the bullet, fragment, the fragment
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: hit it in his garage, got his sweat, DNA placed
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: it dropped, It not smeared. It's dropped in her car. Okay, dropped,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: That's very important. A blood drop can be blood evidence
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: can be a drop. It can be blowback. It can
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: be spatter from a gunshot wound. It can be a
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: transfer where somebody's sweater is bloody and they lean up
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: against the door and you see a transfer mark. It
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: can be a footprint, a bloody fingerprint. It can be
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: a smear. It can be where you clean it up
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: on the floor. It's very important that the DNA in
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: this case was not smeared or placed or rubbed in
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: in any way his Stephen Avery DNA was in her car,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: her car, aren't I guess the police their theory is
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: he had the car on his lot and then had
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: put her body in a burn pit and had him.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: According to his relatives, stir her remains all night long
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: until they disintegrate it. If you follow through their theory,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: that's what you must believe. What do you make of
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy's confession, Nancy? Despite Brendan Dacy's confession that being
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: put aside, your analysis just now and the way that
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: you presented it with the statement that the police would
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: have had to have killed this woman is brilliant and
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: it needs to be replayed for the American public because
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: last night my husband asked me, because he and his
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: firefighter buddies are watching him making a murderer. Two do
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: you think Stephen Avery did it? And I just wrote
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: back an icon of a crying happy like duff as
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I wish I could have said it exactly like you
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: said it. And I'm gonna make him listen to your
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: analysis because it's brilliant and it says it all. I'm
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: just so hurt about it, Kathleen. I'm so hurt, and
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you why I'm hurt. To doctor Daniel Bober,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: we need to shrink pronto. And you're a forensic psychiatrist,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: which means you went to medical school. You're a medical doctor,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: and then you pursued another expertise in psychiatry, Doctor Bober,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: these cases are personal to me, I guess because I'm
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: a tangential crime victim of murder. You know my fiancee
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: was murdered before our wedding. When I hear this, okay,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: everybody says, Brenda Dassy had such a low IQ, actually
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: had a normal to low IQ and had gone through
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: school and was passing school. Blah blah. But let's just
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: take him out of the scenario. I'm not arguing about Dascy.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I'm arguing about Avery. When you hear this statement by Dassy,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: you know he couldn't make that up. It was too detailed.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: It was too no pausing, no thinking about wow, what
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: can I say? He admitted what he did and what
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Stephen Avery did. And one of these interviews his mom
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: was sitting in the next room that she allowed the
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: interview to take place with detectives, and when people claim
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Avery is not guilty, it's just such an affront to
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: crime victims, Doctor Boberg. It's just just so such an
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: affront to Halbeck's family after what they've been through. Yes, Nancy,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I can totally agree with you. It really
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: offends my sensibilities. I don't think he's making it up,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but I think the whole thing is a sham in
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: this Netflix show is absolute nonsense. So I totally agree
• 19:55
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• 20:06
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• 20:11
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• 21:11
  Speaker 1: the Truth Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The lawsuit claims
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the Making a Murderer series portrays Colburn as a corrupt
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: officer who framed an innocent man by planting evidence. He
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: said that she was taking some pictures of a van.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Stephen Avery and his nephew, Brennan Dacy were convicted of
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Hallbacks murder in two thousand and seven, but Avery has
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: been wrongly convicted in the past of sexually assaulting a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: different woman in nineteen eighty five. Colburn's lawsuit says the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: makers of the documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: nervous and apprehensive during trial I believe that, and heavily
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: edited Colburn's testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: inside haulbox car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: says Making a Murderer fail to release significant facts of
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: the trial like Avery's DNA being located on hullbox hoodlatch,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Avery's differing statements, and a bullet with hullbox DNA linked
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: to a firearm hung on Avery's wall. You're hearing Wbay
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: reporter Sharon Mgenda reporting on a blockbuster headline in the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Stephen Avery making a murderer case. A Wisconsin detective has
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: just sued Netflix over portraying him as a corrupt officer
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: who planned evidence. And I gotta tell you back to
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert, I want to go through
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: the forensics with you. But Kathleen Murphy, when you file
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: a defamation lawsuit saying somebody else is lying about you,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you darn well better be telling the truth yourself, because
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you're gonna get dragged through the mud if you're lying.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: So he's putting himself on the hot seat to sue Netflix,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and to me, that speaks volumes. If he's willing to
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: go through this and claim they lied about me, it's
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: big volumes that he has an attorney that will pursue
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: that type of lawsuit. You're right, it better be well planned,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: and it is, and it better be correct. To Joseph Scott, Morgan,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University and author of
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Jo Scott, I want
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: to go through the forensics regarding Stephen Avery's guilt. What
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: about the DNA on the hood latch of Teresa Hallback's vehicle.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, the origins of this DNA. DNA
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: is very specific to individuals as your audience, who is,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you know, highly educated as a result of everything they
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: hear us talk about knows it's it's individualization. Uh you know,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: how did it arrive at that point? And that's that's
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the one thing that the producers of the show and
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: all the other peripherals that are involved in this, they
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: cannot overcome the science in this particular case. Uh, you know,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: his DNA on the hood latch. I think that there
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: are a total of let's see, how many was it.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was like six different individual dallops of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: blood that are linked back to him that are found.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: You can't escape this. The numbers are astronomical when it
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: comes to matching him to his specific DNA strand Nancy.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: As it is shown on the Netflix documentary, this retired
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: detective Colburn asked dispatch on a recorded call to run
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a license plate number which comes back to belonging to Haulback,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: who had already been identified as a missing person at
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: that point, and Colburn gets the info, he immediately can
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: be heard saying ninety nine Toyota. That's the year and
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: make of the car belonging to Hallback found on the property.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Now in the film, Stephen Avery's lawyer, Dean String asked
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Colburn about the call while he's on the stand, and
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: he implies the way he responded made it seem as
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: though he was looking at Hallback's car, which was it
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: said to have been discovered until two days after the call,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: So it makes they're pretending that he had Teresa's car
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: at the time they were calling in. I mean, there's
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: just so much innu window, so much suggestion as to
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the truth. With me is go ahead, jump yeah, Nancy,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I gotta tell you one other big piece to this
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: that everybody looks at in this case. And they talk
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: about motivations for the police, I don't I don't know
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: that the world at large understands how much orchestration would
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: have to be involved in this. And it comes back
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: to one simple fact, they talked about that Avery, if
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: people will remember, was exonerated as being falsely charged and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: imprisoned for this other case that he was involved in
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: that was ghastly in and of itself, And they talked about, well,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: the police were motivated as a result of him being
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: let out. Let's take a look at the flip side
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: of that. Maybe, just maybe, Stephen Avery is a predator
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: by nature, that this is a continuation of the behaviors
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: that he's been engaged in for a protracted period of
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: tom throughout his life. So if you're gonna say one thing,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: you have to look at the other side as well.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: With me is John Lee, retired reporter from the Alpham
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Post Crescent and the Ghanette, Wisconsin newspapers. John Lee, what
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: do you make of it? He hit it right on
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: the head. These were guys. These are small town cops
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: that were portrayed as being bumbling idiots and not good
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: enough to do a major investigation, and kirkod and everything else.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: All of a sudden, it flips fops and they become
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: geniuses on setting up this guy. People that haven't read transcripts,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: people that haven't believed transcripts. All of a sudden believed
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: the crap that Avery's attorney is putting out. Look at
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: his background, burning a cat, throwing a live cat in
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the fire, attempted sexual assault of a neighbor who happened
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: to be the wife of a deputy, care off, the
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: alleged rape of a young relative, which the Brown County
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: District Attorney had enough evidence to proceed with but didn't
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: want to in the middle of this trial, and because
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: the victim was reluctant. This is not an isolated incident.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Look at things that were not allowed to be brought
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: into to the jury, like the sketch of the torture
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: chamber that Avery drew while he was in prison, as
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: well as other things, and how to clean for ins
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and evidence excusally. What did you say, John Lee about
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: a sketch he drew in prisoner There, it's in the
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: court record. It was one of the items not allowed
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: in trial by Judge Willis. I think it's referenced in
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Ken Kratch's book, and I know it's that we did
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: stories on it in the pre trial hearings. But they
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: had a pencil sketch that Avery drew and was provided
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: by another prisoner in prison when he was serving as
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: a teat year term. That showed how we planned to
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: build a concrete torture chamber with rings on the wall
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: in concrete and manacles and chains in the whole shot,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and witnessed from my cellmates on what he was going
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: to do and how he was going to abduct and
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: torture women. That's part of the court record. I did
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: not see that in the document mentored by the Avery
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: pr fur because he was wrongfully convicted, ones does not
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: mean he didn't do anything else. Bombshell in court in
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: the last hours of Retiresconsin Detective sues Netflix over quote
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: portraying him the detective as a corrupt police officer who
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: planted evidence to frame an innocent man in making a murderer.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: He issued not only Netflix, but the producers who recorded
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of hours and then wheeled it down
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to create, according to him, a false picture of the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Avery prosecution. His complaint names the filmmakers by name, Laura
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Ricardi and Maura Demos. They're all going to court. You
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: know what, who's telling the truth will find out in court.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: But I want you to hear from police files a
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: confession by Steve and Avery the star the media darling
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: of Netflix nephew who was there with Avery when Avery
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: raped and murdered twenty seven year old Teresa Hall Back.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: You listen for yourself. She's gonna revisit one thing when
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you're in the bedroom and didn't and you cut her throat.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Previously you said that you thought she was alive. Is
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that still your thought on that? Yeah? And why was that?
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Because she was breathing a little bit. She was like chinning,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: not trying to breathe this. How is she going screaming
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: screaming a lot? She was screaming a lot, or wasn't
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: she was when you cut her throat? Was she screaming
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: when you cut her throat? Because when you're screaming a lot,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: you like you're breaming? Was off her home? Explain that
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit. You said she was screaming off When
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: was she screaming about, like while you were doing it,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: after you did it, before he did it before when
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: you cut her throat, What was she doing if anything,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: like screaming for help and crying. I want to I
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: want to get that straight. She was screaming for help
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: and crying when you cut her throat? Yeah, when did
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Steven choker or strangler like a little bit after Well,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: let's let's just go back a little bit, okay, tell
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: us what exactly happened to her? What order had happened?
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: He said, there were basically three things prior to you
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: guys shooting her. Explain those in the order that had happened,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: starting less when we got in the room. Yeah, what
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: what you guys did to her? It's nice spec Okay.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Then he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Who's here, Steven? Okay? And then what colds? Okay? He
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: talked to in that cove r here? Okay, So he
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: choked her after your cut her throne. You are hearing
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the part of the confession of Stephen Avery's nephew Brendan Dassy.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: We were taking a look at a bombshell document that
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: is happening right now. The entire premise of Season one
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: and Making a Murderer is the question of whether Stephen Avery,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: a junkyard owner who had already spent time behind bars
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: on a crime he didn't commit, and his nephew Brendan Dassy,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: were they framed for the murder of Teresa Halback, twenty
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: five year old photographer. Well, the evidence is overwhelming and
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: the defense theory that police orchestrated this whole thing is
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: beyond the pale. It makes no sense to John Lee,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter with the Ghanette, Wisconsin newspapers, John Lee, what
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: happened in Making a Murderer the way it was produced
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: and all the film cut and the testimony cut. That's
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: exactly what the detective is talking about for only certain
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: parts of testimony is mishmashed together, a cobble together, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: a quilt that looks so damning it shows him the
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: detective pacing around nervously before his testimony is if he's
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: guilty of something. In ken Kratz's book and also with
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Andy Colburn's lawsuit, they do some side by side comparisons
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: with transcripts of what the court record shows and what
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Making a Murderer show, And you can see being kind
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: calling a creative entity, not being time to just call
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: it lying. These people were embedded with the Avery family
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: from from the first week they had seen a story.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: They were filmed students in New York. They made millions
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: of dollars off. I hope some of it asked to
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: go to Andy Colberg for the damage they've done to him,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: you know, and he has had to stand by doctor
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and watch his reputation dragged through
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the mud. That really really hurts, especially when you you
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: can't really defend yourself. Doctor Daniel Bober, you are a
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist, Could you plase analyze the portion of the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: confession I just played by Brendan Dacy Well, I mean,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I think it seems like it's you know, he's being
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: sincere in a in a strange way. That's a word
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I should even use. It doesn't sound like it's false.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: It sounds like he's he's being completely genuine, very matter
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: of fact, and he doesn't sound like he's deceiving at all.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: You know. This lawsuit filed on behalf of Detective Colburn
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: is very detailed. It talks about one scene in making
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: a that states that an insinuation was objected to and sustained.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: But it makes it look like, according to the lawsuit,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: that a crucial line of testimony was falsely conveyed to
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: the viewers that the detective had located Haullbacks SUV somewhere
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: other than the salvage yard. The junkyard days earlier, and
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: likely assisted cops in planting it on Stephen Avery's junkyard.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: They are, according to the lawsuit, making it look like
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: this detective found Halback's car and then dragged it, helped
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: drag it to Stephen Avery's place. Now, this is all
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: before Avery was arrested. He didn't notice a bunch of
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: cops dragging a car and hiding it on his junkyard.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: How did that happen? How was that supposed to happen?
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: John Lee? The theory that they're trying on this planting
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: was tried by or attempted by Avery's original attorneys in
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: preset pre trial hearings and was thrown out by the
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: trial judge for being speculative and having no basis, no
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: no proof or anything else. What Kathleen Zeller, Avery's Zappella's
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: attorney is doing is just throwing stuff on the wall
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: and seeing if anything sticks. Well, none of it is
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: stuck so far. Well, you know what you're right, John Lane.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I just want to point something out really quickly to
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family divorce lawyer. Part of what
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: John Lee is saying, the part about this lawyer Kathleen Zellner.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: She's foiled an appeal for a retrial, and she cites
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: an effective assistance of counsel i e. The lawyers are
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: crappy for the defense. But she's also filed documents pointing
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: the finger at Dacy's older brother Bobby. So she's now
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: pointing the finger at his relatives, claiming, oh, you know what,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you know how I said they had nothing to do
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: with Actually his brother did it. That's who did it.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is just so screwed up she's doing man,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: after a previous motion was thrown out where she tried
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to point the finger at Teresa's roommate and former boyfriend.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: You know, so now it's a game of pointing fingers.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend at WBA. Why this
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: is Sharon begin to The lawsuit claims the making a
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: murderer serious portrays Colburn as a corrupt officer who framed
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: an innocent man by planting evidence. He said that she
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: was taking some pictures of a van. Stephen Avery and
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: has nephew, Brendan Dacy were convicted of Hallback's murder in
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, but Avery has been wrongly convicted
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: in the past of sexually assaulting a different woman in
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. Colburn's lawsuit says the makers of the
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing nerves it's an
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: apprehensive during trial, I believe that, and heavily edited Colburn's
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence inside haulbox
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also says making
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: a murderer fail to release significant facts in the trial,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: like Avery's DNA being located on haulbox hood latch, Avery's
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: differing statements, and a bullet with Haullbox DNA linked to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a firearm hung on Avery's wall. The court battle rages on.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: It ain't over yet. I'm just telling you Stephen Avery, murder,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback, and a whole lot more. Nancy Grace crime
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: story signing off, Goodbye, Fran