Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E1 - Launch Episode
Transcript
- Oliver Spike Joseph: Welcome to Really Jewish. welcome. Yair Eldan: Thank you, Oliver. Oliver Spike Joseph: We are really Jewish. Are we really Jewish? We're delighted to welcome you to our conversation about being Jewish in 2026. This is a brand new podcast. This podcast is for people from all walks of life, Jewish, non-Jewish, religious, secular, believers in God or not. Really anyone who is curious about Judaism and Jewish life. And maybe you too are really Jewish or not. I'm invited to join this. conversation. I'm really excited to welcome Eldan, who is a law professor in Israel. I'm Oliver Joseph, a rabbi in the UK. I'm religious, Yair is secular. Those are broad categories. We are old ⁓ having this conversation intensely about being Jewish, Israel and community without too much interruption over the last 15 years. And we're bringing this conversation to you. the listener about Judaism, about Jewish life, about flux and transformation. lots of conversations going on around synagogues, dinner tables in Israel, in the UK, Europe. And wanna take this conversation ⁓ to podcast and talk about what it is to be really Jewish. Welcome to our podcast, Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Let's get stuck in Yair. Yair Eldan: Thank you, Oliver. Do think I will miss an opportunity to talk about what it means to be really Jewish? a person who thinks that there is nothing that makes you really Jewish. it's good for me. Just to say that ⁓ I'm very to be here because I myself am dealing with my Jewish identity as a permanent thing that follows my ⁓ here Israel. ⁓ And October ⁓ 7th, course, I had think about my Jewish identity because my ⁓ perception was that being in Israel enables you to be whatever... ⁓ you want because you have the layers of the Jewish state which ⁓ know gives you a lot of space ⁓ explore your Judaism and your Jewish identity and ⁓ before ⁓ 7th I have this you know ⁓ feeling that sometimes I'm even closer to Israelis in my lifestyle, in my thoughts, my views, even more than ⁓ to Haredi After October ⁓ 7th, where saw that anti-Semitism is still very, a real thing. Just because ⁓ Jewish, there people who are, you know. discussed it by me, criticizing me, and happy to be here and to speak to you about these things because you are like a counterpart living in the UK in a different context. Thank you for inviting me, Oliver. Oliver Spike Joseph: Lovely to be together. listen, fascinated in the way these two stories come together. I think the experience in Israel and the UK are both intertwined and also ⁓ entirely separate. the same moment, interconnected. The Jewish community in the UK, Europe Israel. ⁓ and living in entirely separate universes, which is an interesting even starting place. But let's get first into Yair, . Tell us a little bit about your own journey and your story and tell the listeners a little bit about you. Yair Eldan: Well, I teach law at a college in Israel. Most interested in ⁓ and Jewish law. As a secular Jew, I was raised in a religious, Zionist religious family. So I have this... very warm and very deep connection to the Jewish texts. And met as part of very deep interest in texts. And I teach also religion and conflict management with the that lead violence and fundamentalism, but at the same time it could be ⁓ the to peace ⁓ and self-knowledge and to compassion and all the good traits a human being. So I'm trying to actually my secular students a feeling and a path into the Jewish texts, Jewish religious texts, in order ⁓ for them to that they to, or ⁓ need is a big word. but they could benefit from these texts. What else? I'm a father and a husband and live Jerusalem, proudly. What about you, Oliver? Let's hear a little bit about you. I think everybody wants to hear ⁓ how you got this place, to this podcast. Oliver Spike Joseph: am, the first place to start is, a rabbi, guess that's pretty to my identity. I did roughly six years working as a rabbi in and then I coming up on five years now became freelance. I didn't really know what that was at time, but I've basically done a lot of different things. in my journey as a rabbi currently work in a place called Canary Wharf which is ⁓ chaplaincy ⁓ large estate in the centre of London and we serve 200,000 plus people on any given day we're a small chaplaincy team and then I also work for the European Masorti Bet Din most of the operations across Europe. for that Bet Din primarily dealing with conversion. The part that I'm interested in in relation to this podcast is When I started out as a rabbi and you've been involved in this journey because we studied together at the Hartman Institute and you are, an inspiring figure then as you are now as one of my teachers we learned Talmud together you were a teacher of Talmud there. It's been a really long journey. So I did seven years of study five which were in Jerusalem two of which were in Los Angeles and then I've been a rabbi now just past 10 years. And the thing that I've really come to, particularly in the last year, 'ain Matbe'ah, there isn't a structure, in Hebrew you Matbe'ah, structure for how to be a rabbi. I think maybe in the ancient world, maybe in the olden times, the rabbis were rabbis because their uncle or parents were, and there some kind of structure. But really because I'm the first in my family to be religious in the way that I define it. And certainly the first I know of of a rabbi in my family, I really had to kind of create my own structure for what that was and what that meant. In that realm, one of those parts is how to present your voice. And I think when I was in Jerusalem, I was surrounded by loads of phenomenal academics and scholars and rabbis. And in Europe in this context, I'm... surrounded by some pretty impressive and there's the aspect of imposter syndrome and intimidation and it's taken me time to develop my own voice and to say I've got something to say I'm really passionate about what it is to be Jewish and Jewish community and all of different of connection that we have between one another as Jewish community both in the UK ⁓ and with Israel and worldwide. it's important to ⁓ this conversation, apart from anything else that we have so that we continue to develop strength as a community to endure Yair Eldan: Listen, for me it's also important with the context of our own relationship. really felt in the last two years that I'm disconnecting a way from social interactions of the massacre of October ⁓ 7th, because what I saw ⁓ before ⁓ all what the Israeli government is trying to do to democracy here. I really got into myself and lot of my social connections were loosened. And in a way, your hand that you are putting forward, for me, very important. In this ⁓ of my I also had a friend that... committed suicide two years ago, ⁓ a very deep impression on me. And I really appreciate this conversation about things that are really important to both of us. But it's also a way of, you know, deepening ⁓ our relationship, our relationship in the last 15 years was, you know, close. ⁓ very intimate in a way, but very distant in a way because of the distance between Europe and Israel, because each one of us took a path, you took a path and you did a lot of things over the years. wrote, I my artistic path ⁓ in and in a took... took a distance from my academic career and just an opportunity for me that I'm very glad about it, I'm very happy about it. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's ⁓ perfect frame. I'm very sad for friend who took their life. What ⁓ sharpen appreciation and with life more than such an ⁓ in my imagination? Listen, I think you described very our friendship. I don't think either of us in the business of describing that we're the best of friends and that we've been friends since we were three years old. It's not true. We have ⁓ relationship ⁓ but ⁓ bit that I'm fascinated and the bit that I love is ⁓ the of our relationship. Mostly our revolves around a beer on like a street. ⁓ in the times that I've been in Israel over the last, now 10 years. particularly like around 7th and COVID, those were extremely limited in duration or numbers of visits, especially during that So in part, some of relationship has been pared back, but there's a consistency and a continuity of the way that we've managed to maintain our friendship and... I've always loved the conversations that we've got into and really taken a lot from them. we've exchanged photos and voice notes over lots of years now about how our ⁓ are going and how life is going. And I was, know, as of this stage, 10 years a rabbi, part of this stage of my own professional development, I've been thinking about podcasts for a long time and A couple of people had mentioned having chemistry with a host and finding somebody who's going to pop with, it's going to be exciting. And this feels like good starting place in terms of a conversation. Yair Eldan: But why did you want to call the podcast really Jewish? You wanted to make me mad, right? You wanted to upset me. Why did you do that? Oliver Spike Joseph: Hahaha Listen, this is, ⁓ thinking about something which is gonna capture people. I think we could spend the whole of the first season of talking about what's really Jewish. I think I have questions about my own Jewish identity on daily basis about what is really Jewish. I have questions on a daily basis about what the future of the Jewish people looks like. I have... Yair Eldan: Mmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: so many questions about what Judaism is and how to best live Jewish life. have questions about, you know, I didn't frame before, I'm also a dad and a husband three small children. I have lots of questions about how you raise children in a Jewish way. So the question of really Jewish that this podcast is. know, feigning or attempting to identify is just is a lifetime question can sit with for the entirety of a lifetime. Yair Eldan: You know that after October ⁓ in the ⁓ months followed and the way the ⁓ IDF actually dealt with, trying to fight the Hamas, which were hiding in buildings and underneath the surface, everybody talks about revenge as ⁓ that really is underneath. the way the IDF actually bombed Gaza after October 7th. And I didn't have a problem with this in the months that followed October 7th. But afterwards, I felt that the way that we dealt with this is horrific. And I have a lot of guilt about it. But I wouldn't say that it's a Jewish way to deal such a thing because Judaism and you know Jewish text as you know has has a lot of text and people actually were citing these texts Jewish text in order to justify the IDF's approach in Gaza that you know made a lot of people die. And so that's my problem with really Jewish. Everything could be Jewish. Judaism is really a civilization. I think what I'm looking for is the way that ⁓ views actually come ⁓ with my Jewish identity. think that's my path in life. And what I want to actually deal with in ⁓ conversation. Oliver Spike Joseph: Listen, it's interesting. I think the perspective I come from is The question of Israel is very hot here in a UK context. you know, in our line up for the kind of first eight episodes, I put Israel like ⁓ deep the weeds on the fifth or the sixth or the seventh episode, because I know it ⁓ is topic that will evoke response and, you know, Yair Eldan: HAHAHAHA Oliver Spike Joseph: especially in a rabbinic space something people talk about with great peril and with great thought and reservation you should enter into the topic of talking about the state of Israel in community or community life. That being said, is part of our, fact that I could put, ⁓ Israel on episode seven or eight in our podcast exactly expresses the differential between what it is to live in the UK and Israel. I think for me, like front and centre, it's ultimately antisemitism. that it's something that I experience every single day, but the very fact that there is a sense, an overwhelming sense in the community. Now I do this. this work day in day out. speak to, you know, in my regular day, let's say Monday to Friday, which is our working week, I speak to at least 10 or 12 people on an average week, you one-on-one intimately, half an hour, 40 minutes, sometimes longer. ⁓ with everyone, and this is in a European context, not just in a UK context, there are struggles. struggles with protests in the streets in the center of European capitals, struggles with identity in workplace about do you share the fact that you went to a wedding in Israel recently? Do you share your Judaism, Jewish identity in any sense or form? These are real personal struggles which are happening now, And also why I want to present Really Jewish, because Really Jewish for me is about presenting Judaism with pride, with honor, with dignity. I'm not saying that, I think the war in Gaza has been horrific. and a very difficult period for the Jewish community in so many different ways worldwide, in Israel and here. But the bit that I'm dealing with on my patch, as you say in English, in my space, like a deep, like a societal delegitimization of Israel. And I by virtue of like, the depth of delegitimization of Israel, undermining in fundamental ways of Jewish life. that a catastrophe. yeah, I definitely, it's really Jewish because I want to piss you off here. Definitely. I want something which is, we say in Hebrew like, harif, like spicy, that's gonna like ⁓ get us going. also speaks to the depth. Yair Eldan: ha Oliver Spike Joseph: of, I don't know, maybe crisis is the wrong word, but it speaks to the depth the struggle that we have right now. Yair Eldan: Right, and see how poetic it is that you are dealing with thoughts about presenting Judaism in a very proud way, you know, in light of anti-Semitism and delegitimization of Israel. But, and me. and I'm living in Israel, there is something about what I said before, that I'm free in a way, free to think about my Jewish identity, free to explore it in a very open way, now, even now when times are so critical, even now when the existence of the States of Israel is being questioned. My, I feel my situation is in a way more back, you know? you know, A.B. Joshua ⁓ said that you can be fully Jewish only ⁓ in state of Israel. And he really pissed off everybody in England and in the States. I'm not sure he was right. I ⁓ he was referring to the fact that you can actually form a Jewish attitude. in foreign relations, you know, that's very unique for ⁓ state of Israel. You can form a economic ⁓ social you know, only in the Jewish state. But what I'm saying is even more, ⁓ you more basic. I have the ⁓ space to think about my Jewish identity, about the guilt I feel today after two years of war, which comes from my Jewish identity. I have the time and space to explore what it means to be Jewish for me. Because I have this layers of identity, the calendar, the Hebrew language, everything enables me to be very relaxed. Even now, even now when I feel threatened, I feel that I'm more, I'm less reactive than you. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Just say one more word on what that means. Less reactive than you. Sounds very judgmental, Yair ⁓ Yair Eldan: How Israeli of me, oh my God. Reactive in a way that you talked about presenting Jewish identity with proud in light of what goes on in Europe these days. know, that's in a way that... a reaction to what goes on the outside and not something that goes from the inside or from the inside. Oliver Spike Joseph: Listen, know, Hayeiinu b' Tu Bishvat, we had festival of Tu Bishvat and Tu Bishvat is, the center of the Tu Bishvat is all framed around the shells, like the way that we're protected from the outside and the way that we're vulnerable to the outside and different of vulnerability and exposure. That's an interesting connection to spring that we're now kind of moving through ⁓ in Jewish identity. Listen, I live both. I think I live a very rich Jewish life. I think in a UK context, we have Jewish infrastructure, we have Jewish community, we have really rich and good Jewish life and I feel like I'm living it. We have a school that's a small Jewish school that we center our lives around. We have at least two communities, synagogues around us that we are involved in as a community. I teach in at least two or three different communities as a rabbi. That's an exciting space, but there's definitely a sense around us that the world is changing before our very eyes. And the very sense of living Judaism in an open and a proud way. Even that aspect of Jewish pride, I think is controversial in a European context. What have you got to be proud of? look at the war that you've just executed and... ⁓ and perpetuated on the Middle East. What's there to be proud of? ⁓ version ⁓ and I passionately want to present this to the world outside, is There are terrible things that happen across the world and across society. I think Israel is living in a unique space of terror and of war and of moral crisis, if that's what we want to examine. But the aspect of Judaism is much, deeper. It's much, much deeper than that part. And I'm also, you know, I'm inspired by, this and one of the courses I'm teaching at the moment at the Paideia Institute in Stockholm, is about Hasidut. And what's the inyan of Hasidut? What's the essence of at least the Hasidism that I read? It's exactly about that. It's the... Yair Eldan: Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: the rabbis, the Maorinai and the Aish Kodesh the two rabbis I primarily read at the moment, are specifically interested in the root center, the Shorashim, the Ikarim, the roots and the center of Judaism as a concept. with blocking out the outside noise of what's going on in Ukraine, Russia, what's going on second War Germany as two examples, blocking out the interference to find what the Jewish core is. And I'm interested in that project. I'm interested in that project. Yes, we have lots of rabbis who spend their whole career talking about politics and they're people who I hugely respect, but part of the... In-yan, and the but part of a religious project, part of a Jewish project is about the inside. Yair Eldan: I understand it's very important for me to hear that. Interesting. It surprised me. I hope I'm not sounding, ⁓ again, but just a small example from my life. My daughter comes, ⁓ she to ⁓ a secular kindergarten, totally secular, but because it's Israel and it's a Jewish state, They talk with the kids about Purim, about the Esther, Megillah, Megillah Tester, and they talk about what happened with the King Achashverosh, and about Haman, and about the whole session, the whole story of the Megillah. And she comes home, and she comes home, obviously, with things she heard in Gan in kindergarten. And then the conversation begins, Oliver. Interesting, because she comes with, you know, the story, the basic story told from a... certain narrative it could be a very, know, violent narrative or from the, you know, the victimhood narrative saying, listen, the Jews were very threatened the, you know, the fact that were, people were allowed to kill them, ⁓ you know, according the story and they reacted, they acted and ⁓ it's wonderful and justifies the state of Israel and you know and so but when she comes home I start to talk to her about things about my Jewish identity which connected to the gender issues of the Megillah about Esther and Vashti and the fact that were objectified by all men around them were they were objectified and the fact for me there is something that is know contradiction the contradicted to my Jewish identity with regard to the fact that you know, there is something I know ⁓ the sense of happy there is something you know, which I don't joyful about the fact that Jews were you know, killing other people who wanted to kill them. But there is something joyful about it in the story of the Megillah, which I want to talk to and I talk to with my kids. And it happens ⁓ happens with no effort. That's what I tried to say to you. And it enables me in a way to be very open and to be very relaxed. and not to think about the consequences of what it means to say things when my kid has to actually go to the street and deal with anti-Semitism, which is a totally different way of life in a way, a totally different consciousness if you want them to survive. I hope you understand me. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, yeah, I mean... The bit that I struggle with the most the aspect of conspiracy theory, which, and collective punishment of the community because, you know, I'm just, ⁓ I was active on social media about a year ago and I had quite a long break. And now with this podcast, I'll be back up again. And the number of... comments people writing kind of baby killer on the website or on different media channels, or just even just free Palestine. Like I... I think it's a misunderstanding of Judaism and Jewish life. think it's also an ahistoric reading of Judaism and Jewish life. ultimately opposed to war. I wish we didn't have to go to war. I ultimately believe that Judaism is an ethical religion. I think probably the state of Israel is being run by a bunch of crazy people at the moment. And that ⁓ affected how this war was pursued. I also believe that Judaism as a minority faith in the UK and Europe should be protected. That the project which is European democracy better when our minority groups are protected. And number of kind of conspiratorial kind of memes and chats and this that are going around about how Jews control the world and the Jews control the media and the Jews are running the police force and the Jews are running the politicians and it's scary and it's all anecdotal because I'm not a politician and I'm not in the business, I'm not an anthropologist, I'm not in the business of doing heavy research in these matters. Most of my statistical data comes from conversations with people who report back on their own personal experience in their place of work or in their... are in their profession compared to October ⁓ which was the dreamy blissful years of certainly UK Jewry, the data is ⁓ overwhelming in of people's experience. Anybody who has even one half of a foot inside Jewish community ⁓ is really at the moment. I think we're going to carry on with this conversation because this is something that we're going to come back to. I'm gonna us to this conversation friendship. And with that, we'll finish up today. We have lots plans for this podcast, and I'm really excited about us being together, but part of this conversation that we have together each week will revolve around some kind of Jewish text. Yair Eldan: Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: some kind of core piece that we're gonna explore together. And this week, first introductory week, Finding Our Feet, it will just be for a couple of minutes. We looked at this text from Tana'it about Hevruta and what we have together. And I've this text also, I think in a Hartman context where we first met, the Hartman Institute that both, I was a student there and you worked at. speaks to this aspect of Barzel Yahad. that. That somehow steel on steel or iron on iron sharpens. And I know that between us, an aspect of our friendship and the aspect of why we're here today, like why Yair, why Oliver, do we to do a podcast is about this sharpening that somehow through the aspect of relationship between the two of us. ⁓ We sharpen and develop our own ideas and our own of, in this context, what it to be really Jewish. And I'm interested when we look at this text and when we think about the idea of ch'eruta, like how do you understand this concept? ⁓ to clarify again, ch'eruta is two people sitting together in a room, traditionally in the Beit Midrash, in the house of study, now on Riverside this app that we're using to record the podcast. studying Gemara, studying Halakha, studying Jewish texts in order to arrive at a significant and strong vantage point on that text. What's your take on that Sugia? Yair Eldan: Listen, I mean, it's very rare when you think about it to be surprised in the conversation these days. People are so intertwined with their opinions own that holds the same opinions that to be surprised is very rare. And it happened to me today when you spoke about the yeshkodesh and about shutting down the voices. which are down the voices in the middle of the Second World War and thinking about your Jewish identity from within. For me, it was surprising to hear and it's wonderful when it happens. It could happen only in a real conversation. Chavruta for me is a real conversation. It's John Stuart Mill, right? know, being open. in a conversation sharpening, as you said from the Taanaitic text, sharpening your ideas with other ideas ⁓ and yourself. And when said judgmental about me, true, it comes from a different, you know... aspect of Havruta because could mean also, you know, that what I said now, chavrut could mean our relationship, ⁓ you know, of it, which means you come to a conversation, you're open, you actually learn something because you're open to other opinions. chavrut could also ⁓ be in the context more competitive and more, you there are in ⁓ texts there are metaphors for the relationships between Chavruta, from the... context of war, metaphors as you said now of iron which is sharpened by another iron which is also a little bit violent or by fire which all goes to the more judgmental competitive aspect of you know studying together. Hopefully conversation would be more from the learning part, the more compassionate part of studying together because I really believe that study or learning cannot be ⁓ in the context of competitive context. Really learning, internalizing some, you know, patterns of thinking. could happen only when you're relaxed. You're not trying to prove something. You're not trying to compete with someone. know, that's my initial take ⁓ ⁓ going on. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, I think in another few months time, we're to have to come back to this topic because we haven't lent it enough. not opposed to the violence of friendship. think I like just to kind of to present the other side. I think some of my most fundamental relationships involve chad in Hebrew is related to the which one. And there's like a kind of there's the hard is is is literally a sharpening like you would sharpen a knife. Yair Eldan: Hahaha Oliver Spike Joseph: And there's something, know, like the name dropped my friend Alon, who's a new friend who has really pushed me forward in this podcast story. I can certainly mention my partner, Natalie, my wife, who is a sharpener. She's somebody who forward and expects the same of me. Many my most significant relationships, I think, including you, I'm not saying that they're violent relationships, but they are relationships of Yair Eldan: Hahaha! Oliver Spike Joseph: of push as much as pull and of fire as much as love and softness. And I think both framings important. There's a that was learning yesterday about the importance of love and fear in relationship with God. Why love and fear in relationship with God, the Rambam says, is because we need them both. We need the... In this context, we need the fire and we need also the love and the softness and the adoration at the same time. relate to this topic because I think the journey that we're on, both in our friendship ⁓ beyond the comfortable walls of this friendship that we are reinvesting in and redeveloping, I think the world outside is tough. And so there's in friendship. for a lot of love and a lot of understanding and consideration. And there's also a need in friendship for pulling us up. We live in a time, I think, I believe, where we have to be our best selves if we're gonna sustain and endure. It's a time of greater competition and of greater strife. And that demands of us to be better. Yair Eldan: I'm so happy you ended that because I was afraid that you will start being violent with me, with your first things. But in a way I'm so happy and proud to be in this conversation because there is something so rabbinic about you which is authentic, rabbinic role in society which I think role of ⁓ for me is hope. Oliver Spike Joseph: you Yair Eldan: to people, which is so difficult these days. And the way you closed your things about friendship and about importance of compassion with the context of what was going on in the world, it ⁓ gave a little bit of hope. ⁓ So very happy and proud to be here, Oliver. Thank you. Oliver Spike Joseph: I'm happy and proud to be here too. Listen, I think part of this, the other part of friendship that we didn't mention is about vulnerability. And that's a nice kind of full circle on why we're here this podcast. I think there's an aspect of this podcast I would like to present, which is about spiritual vulnerability, about sharing a little bit of our story each week. Not just for the sake of sharing the story, but for the sake of really learning. And in many ways, what we're doing here as a Hevruta, the context of our friendship, in the context of this podcast, is going that journey together. But because it's 2026, we're doing it in a very public way. Yair Eldan: I totally identify. I mean, Aristotle talked about friendship, three forms of friendship, friendship, which is you're someone in order achieve something, pleasure, pleasure friendship. You're going with someone to the movies. You're going to shows with something. like to do things with that person. But... You you talk about true, true friendship, which is a journey, a journey in the search of truth, your self-truth, truth, the objective truth. If there is something like that, ⁓ and so happy that we are starting a journey of this kind together. That's what my feeling. Oliver Spike Joseph: So with that we're gonna wrap up for today. Yair thank you for being with us. Thank you for ⁓ agreeing to be the host of Really Jewish. In next couple of weeks we've got some exciting episodes coming up. We're gonna dip a little bit more into my life story with Yair's life story ⁓ and as we go. Listen, we want your feedback as the listener if you're listening on YouTube. or if you're listening on any of the platforms that you hear your podcast on, we are open to your feedback and we are building this podcast from the wheels up. We're already on the road. If you want us to help us produce, edit, or join our team to support this podcast, please be in contact. Send this podcast, especially as it's the first day, to friends and family. Offer us a five-star review where you listen to the podcast. And if you want to be in contact, email me, I'm easy to find hello at oliverspikejoseph.com. finally, as we go, listen to a couple of episodes first, but you're welcome to support the making of this podcast by way of our Patreon account. All of these links are going to be in the show ⁓ It's really exciting to start off this journey with Really Jewish, with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Thank you much ⁓ for joining Thanks, Yair. Yair Eldan: Thank you Oliver.