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GUEST EPISODE: The Dream Queen? · Brilliant Minds?

• Editing Andrea: Hello, it's editing Andrea here. I am just popping in super quick before today's episode to give you a little bit of a sensory activation warning. There is a little bit of an audio glitch throughout this episode. It sounds a little bit like a click or a tap on a microphone. So I just wanted to apologize. I tried my best to get rid of it. So this is just your short little trigger warning for today's episode, but please enjoy. Olivia: Hello everyone, welcome back to Brilliant Minds with a big old question mark. as you guys can see, we have another person from our beautiful tribe of colleagues that we know and love here with us today. but before we get into that, I'm Olivia. This is my co-host and business partner. Andrea: Andrea, I don't know whether to cringe or be totally on board with the fact that you just said tribe. So but I think we're just gonna move on from that. Olivia: Okay, that's that's fair. Okay, group. A grouping of Emilia: Thank you. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Olivia: like-minded individuals. Okay, fair. Andrea: Not weird therapists. Olivia: Obviously, obviously, obviously not. and I was I was thinking about like the best way to introduce Amelia because she's amazing. I used to supervise her directly. We've known her for a long time. And honestly the thing that I kept coming back to is you are the Benjamin Button of therapists. Andrea: One hundred percent. Emilia: Please tell me more. Olivia: Up up. Y I don't every time I see you I don't understand how I'm so much younger than you. Emilia: Yeah, that's real. Olivia: You just it's Benjamin Button and it's not even like your personality as a child. Like that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying like physically, you had don't age. I don't understand. Emilia: I'll take it. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Benjamin But am I right, Andrea? Like that I Andrea: yeah, for sure. As I was editing your headshots, I sent one to Olivia and I was like, Amelia is beautiful. There is no way Amelia's even aging. What's happening? What are you doing? Emilia: Thank you. Absolutely nothing, I'm doing absolutely nothing. It's genes I'm just assuming one day it's all gonna go downhill, but... Olivia: live it up now, right? Live it Andrea: Ha ha ha. Olivia: up. Yeah. well, questions that we have usually asked more towards the end when we've had guests on the podcast before that I want to start with just because I think it's funny to kind of like start things off, is what was the worst part about having me as a supervisor? Emilia: The accountability? Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: thank God for it, but also, oof, you, you Olivia: Didn't like it. Yeah. Emilia: held me down. Getting those Olivia: Ha ha. Emilia: notes, we're getting out of control. Andrea: She tends to be good at that. We'll say that. Emilia: Yeah, she has a way about her. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. okay, that's fair. That's actually a very real answer. I'm not sorry, but I see what Emilia: No, I'm also not sorry. Olivia: you mean. Yeah, like I see what you mean, but like what what what are you supposed to do, you know? Emilia: It needed to happen and also I needed to hear it, so. Olivia: Yeah, here we are. so when I was like kind of doing the the math, how long have you actually been in the field now? Emilia: I graduated in spring of 2023, so I had done my internship before then, and then I've been going for over three years now, which is wild. Olivia: How does feel? Yeah. Emilia: Short and long, all at the same time. Olivia: Isn't that stupid? Emilia: Like I can't believe it's been that long and also like, my gosh, like. Andrea: Yeah. What was I the one Emilia: It's flown by. Andrea: to hire you as an intern? Was it me? Okay. Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you hired me as an intern and then Olivia hired me as a full-time staff. Yeah. Andrea: Right, that's right. Yeah. It's it seems like we've known you for so long. It almost feels like you should have your license longer, but also like not long enough. Like it's like you were just a baby Emilia: Yeah. Well, and I've only had my- Andrea: therapist. Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: Yeah, yeah well and like I've only had my license fully since last August So August of 2025? Olivia: Just a little over a year. Andrea: a year? Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: Okay. Emilia: So yeah. Olivia: Still. Andrea: You did good getting Olivia: Wow. Andrea: your hours after graduation then. Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: that was awesome. Yeah. I think a lot of people like linger on those like Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've seen lots of folks keep their LMHCA for years and years, and I'm like, no, no. Let's go. Olivia: man. What did you notice any big differences maybe that you weren't expecting in transitioning from being an associate to being fully licensed? Emilia: It didn't feel that different. The thing is that I kind of, got my license while I was starting my private practice, like almost at the exact same time. So it like, the transition feels more about the private practice than it even did about being fully licensed, if that makes sense. Olivia: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. and that was purposeful, like the timing of doing kind of both at once, right? Emilia: Yeah, I knew I was going to be getting my license as soon as the Department of Health approved it. And so I was waiting and also got onboarded at a collective called Thrive Therapy Northwest as an LMHCA so I could get in as an LMHCA and then Literally weeks later I was fully licensed and then got onboarded fully. Yeah, it was it was actually pretty smooth. I know Olivia: That's awesome. Impecc impeccable timing. Yeah. Emilia: I impress even myself. Olivia: man. Yeah, I know like I don't know what kind of feedback you've gotten before, Andrea, but I usually get that like after licensing, I think some of the loneliness can be a little bit of a surprise. If like I think people feel so much really I don't need supervision anymore, I can like do things on my own, I'm independent. And I think maybe some of the like the loneliness is the unexpected part of that transition. but you coupled that trend your fully licensed transition with all these other things. So I could see why you probably didn't really feel that one very much. Emilia: I started with this collective and was a part of their consultation group for a little while. So that was like a nice interim of like, didn't have my supervision, but I was meeting with this group of folks every other week, I think. And then, there was some drama with another consultation group I was a part of. So I just haven't been in a consultation group. But I do meet Sammy regularly with the woman who runs Thrive Therapy Northwest. So she's kind of like my point of contact and the person I see most in the field regularly. Olivia: So you're saying that sometimes there's drama with other therapists? Emilia: No, I would never say that out loud. Andrea: Now let me ask this. Were they weird therapists? Emilia: No! It Andrea: darn it. Emilia: was really, the honest truth is that it was a weekly consultation group for an hour and a half every Tuesday night. And I was just like, I Andrea: That's a lot. Emilia: can't commit to this. And so I had to like bow out. Because I like just really couldn't do it. Olivia: I I can't commit to almost anything like that. Emilia: weekly other than work and home. Olivia: Well yeah, if it was like a hobby, maybe Andrea: Was that were you paying for that too? Olivia: well Emilia: Yeah, I was paying, but But it's 40 bucks a month or something, $10 a session. it was really cheap, which was nice. But it was just far too much of a commitment for my poor little brain. Andrea: That's a lot. Olivia: Yeah, once a week for that long. And an evening. You're sacrificing an evening? Emilia: Yeah, a whole evening a week. I couldn't Olivia: Mm-mm. Emilia: do it. Olivia: I wouldn't even do it if they paid me ten dollars to go. Let alone I paid ten dollars to go. Emilia: Yeah, that's valid. Andrea: That's just I think about how much social socialization we do just in a therapy day and then to do a consult group with other therapists on a therapy day at night. Emilia: Yeah, and some of the folks were going straight from seeing clients into the consultation group. I see clients early in the morning to early afternoon. And so I would at least Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: have a break before, but then I had to go back to work. And that felt bad too. Olivia: Yeah, that's awful. Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: Still looking for that perfect consultation group. Olivia: we I Andrea: Well maybe we're forming one right here. Who knows? Emilia: Yes. Olivia: Yeah. my gosh. okay, so we've talked a lot on the podcast about like weird therapists or like other therapists in the in the field, and how we don't often get along with them. wha what what what's your experience been connecting with other therapists? do you feel like it's easy? Do you not? are there therapists that you're like, Yeah, that is a weird therapist? W w what what do you think? Emilia: Yeah, well two things came to mind. One was that a lot of my therapist friends are from grad school. So I met them in school, knew them for several years, went through this whole process with them and have like stayed connected. So I don't find them weird, which is great. Olivia: friends yeah, grad friends are safe. Safe. Emilia: So grad friends, yeah, like the ones that I found there that are like chill and cool and good, love them. And then the like, I think the biggest thing I hit with other therapists is the ones that... I don't know how to say, aren't as casual as I am, I'll say. Like the ones that dress Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Emilia: really fancy and like, you know, like there's this air of self-importance and they want to make an impression and it feels fake to me. And I come in in my like leggings and a sweatshirt most days. And I'm just like, hey, this is me. Anyway, so that's the clash that I Olivia: Yes, I I'm familiar. Emilia: find for myself. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. It almost strikes me as the like my interpretation of that is it strikes me as a therapist that would like never use self-disclosure or would like never Emilia: Mm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: swear with a client. And Emilia: Right? Yeah. Olivia: I'm like, I that's not I'm sorry. I I'm gonna see myself out from that group because that is very clearly not me. Emilia: Yeah, Andrea: Mm. Emilia: I don't know what it is. Yeah, it's like a very... like some of it feels like maybe they have a lot more money than I do from something else in their lives. Olivia: From a from a spouse. Emilia: So they just have a very different lifestyle. Like, okay, that's cool. But Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: yeah. Andrea: Yeah. There's also there's almost like an air to like a medical model with those people, I find, where it's almost like they're very Emilia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: like I can be really clinical. I think Olivia, you can also be very clinical, but at the same time, like we're gonna swear, we're gonna wear sweatshirts and whatever. But I I tend to notice like a like a white coat type of person when Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: it's like that type of therapist too, which is like, you know, they're probably gonna call their clients patients and like I don't Like that. Emilia: Yeah, yeah, I really like the, I haven't started doing this. I still call my clients clients, but I really like, stink, can't remember, decolonizing therapy, I can't remember the name of the author, but she called Andrea: Mullen. Emilia: them participants. And I'm like, I like that, because it takes away the like, mental illness, mental health aspect, and it's just like you're participating in your therapy. And that sounds more casual, which I like, and also doesn't pathologize. Andrea: Yeah. I like that. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. That would cl unlearning clients, gosh, I think that would take me a while. Like the word, using the word. 'Cause when I think Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: when I hear the word participant, I immediately think I'm getting asked to do a survey. Andrea: Kinda what therapy is that what it yeah. Emilia: I get it. Sometimes Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: it is a survey. Andrea: Yeah, we're asking questions. You're answering questions. Evaluating your life? Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I don't know. Emilia: You Olivia: No, I know I I totally. I just it's so funny, it just makes me think of are you open to a short survey after this, Do you do you wanna participate in this short y that's what I think of when I think of the word participate or participants, which is yeah, Emilia: Yeah. No, for sure. Mm-hmm. Olivia: which which Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: is funny. my goodness. so kind of backing up like a little bit more, so I I ask these questions not because I don't know obviously some of the answer to it, but also just more so people can get to know you a bit better. what what kinds of clients are you working with the most right now? And like what kinds of clients do you really like working with? Emilia: Yeah, it's funny because I didn't go into this field with this in mind. And I started Olivia: Classic. Emilia: working with like trauma, folks with queer identities, and grief. Those are like my three specializations. And then very quickly, found out that people who are queer and or have had trauma often have neurodivergence. So all of a sudden, neurodivergence is one my top things. So yeah, Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: I work with a lot of folks who are late diagnosed ADHD, are trying to understand what neurodivergence means for them. And I also work with teens, some teens too, who have neurodivergence. So like, yeah, 15 plus. But a lot of my clients are like 20s and 30s and just found out that they have ADHD. specifically women. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: My favorite. Olivia: I I'm also gonna take this moment to plug myself, because Amelia is one of the many people I supervised that I have brought to the neurodivergent Emilia: You Olivia: cult. so I was gonna put it out there that I not so gently was like, Hey Amelia, you have ADHD. Emilia: hahahaha Andrea: Ha ha ha Olivia: You should probably address that. Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Emilia: No, it was for sure during... when was that? During supervision? Olivia: the first yeah, that was the first year of when you were in the field employed. Emilia: Yeah, 2023 probably. I Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: was like, maybe I should get checked up. And I saw a psychologist and got diagnosed with ADHD for the first time at, how old was I? 37? Andrea: Nah, that's not true. I actually Emilia: Classic. Andrea: think I remember Olivia texting me about Emilia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: that. And I think it was like somewhere along the lines of like, I think Emilia has ADHD. And I we And then like na as I'm sitting here thinking about it, I was like, all the people that I feel like I hired and gave to Olivia Emilia: Uh-huh. Andrea: all came out. Emilia: So maybe Olivia's giving us ADHD. Olivia: Girl Andrea: To be fair, to be fair, mine have too. So But I'm like, it's part of our cult, right? I knew I had like an inkling maybe and then I was take Jesus Jesus take the wheel, Olivia. Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, the funny- Olivia: Yeah, now at this point we we just say another one bites the dust. We don't be like, Hey, I think this sip one we Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: supervise has it or just another one bites the dust, here we go. Emilia: the funniest part was that I had gotten accommodations for school based on anxiety and depression at the time, not realizing that those were because I had untreated ADHD. I probably had some depression from the pandemic as well that was lingering, but there were definitely like, signs that it was there that I wasn't treating it. And then when Olivia kind of brought that into perspective for me, was like, that's why I needed accommodations. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I also just recently, like, I've been in I've been playing the long game with someone else I used to supervise that she has ADHD. I've been playing the long game. I haven't supervised Emilia: Mmm. Olivia: her in like two years. And I was like, I know you got it. She even got evaled. The eval was like, no, you don't. And I was like, it's wrong. Let me talk to him. Like, I know that you do. Emilia: Hahaha! Olivia: And it was literally just weeks ago, she was like, Olivia, I think I do have it. And I was like, Yes, yes. I was like, I Andrea: Ha ha ha ha. Olivia: won! I did it. I was like, this is my only outstanding person that I was like, you have it. I know you have it. I need you to know that you Emilia: I know it. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Olivia: have it. Emilia: That's hilarious. Yeah. Olivia: So I'm glad you were easier to convince, is I guess Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: really where I'm trying to get back to, which is like, if I didn't convince you I would have played the long game and I would still be after you about it. Emilia: Mm-hmm. Well, it made so Andrea: yeah. Emilia: much sense once it was like made clear to me by Olivia. Olivia: my gosh, that's so funny. what what is something that you like the the most about working in the field? Emilia: It's the only job I've ever had that I haven't been like, okay, I'm bored. I'm sick of this. What's next? which is saying Olivia: I really like that. Emilia: something for me because I've never kept a job longer than two years. Olivia: Well. Andrea: Is this a is this a second career job for you or was is this like the career job and you kinda did odd joby stuff before? Emilia: Yeah, I dabbled in a little bit of everything before this. I got my undergrad Andrea: Okay, yeah. Emilia: in communications and just did a bunch of random cool jobs. Like I did get to try a lot, but it was like as soon as I learned the job and I got good at it, I was like, okay, I'm bored. And in this job, it's like Andrea: Also ADHD folks. Emilia: This job Andrea: Sorry. Emilia: is just not like that. not only because there are a lot of different avenues you can take besides just like one-on-one therapy, but also that it's like working with people is very dynamic. So it's always shifting and moving Olivia: Mm-hmm. Emilia: and changing. And so it's, I'm never like bored or. Yeah, it holds my attention. Olivia: Yeah. Do you think that that is something just that just happens naturally, or do you feel like you have to I don't know, maybe push that or focus that at all over time? Emilia: There's definitely shifts that I have to make with certain clients that I've been working with some clients for three, four years now, from internship that I still have. Olivia: Mm. Emilia: And so. once I really know them and we're in more of a maintenance space. it definitely like takes a different tone. But because it's story and people and relationship and like the things that I love and I'm interested in, it doesn't ever feel like stale. if that makes sense. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Totally. Olivia: Yeah. I think that's actually a really lovely way to say that. 'Cause I I think if I were to be asked that question I I I think I would probably have a different answer but I l really appreciate yours because I think to be honest with you, that's probably underneath my answer to that question. Emilia: Sure. Andrea: Yeah, for sure. Olivia: is that like I I like the I like the challenge of it. Like I I the ripple effect that you can create. and I've said this on the podcast before, but I I like to try to in my own way romanticize aspects of the job and the way I romanticize them is making it feel like I'm like an undercover spy secret agent. Emilia: Yes. Olivia: And so if I can like affect change in a very like behind the stage kind of way, Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: you know, like in that like top secret kind of way, like I wanna do that. Like I wanna like be as anonymous as Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: possible, but like affect all this change. Cause I like that's what I love about the field. Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: so yeah, that's how I romanticize the job. That's not really what somebody would think of when they're like, I'm I'm gonna romanticize Emilia: Thank Olivia: aspects of my life. I'm making it feel like I'm like cold war, like undercover. Emilia: I love that. Although like that is kind of how at least I see therapy work is like we're oftentimes impacting the unconscious mind when while Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: the client isn't necessarily conscious of what's happening behind the scenes. And then years later, they verbalize something that you've been kind of working on behind the scenes a little bit and they're naming it as their Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: reality now and you're like, yeah. It's vile. Andrea: I said that. I was kidding. Olivia: You're like, I've been bread crumbing this for years. Finally. Emilia: There's definitely those moments. Yeah, I said that a year ago. I don't know. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Emilia: thought it's coming up for you now. Sometimes it's just not the right time. Andrea: I yeah, yeah. I love that. I love being able to be creative all the time and in Emilia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: like a problem solving y type of way, but like it's very covert where it's like we're kind Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: of covert feels like an aggressive word, but like it is very we're doing this alongside someone in a way to help them, and it's like Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrea: It's a very creative field that I don't think a lot of people realize. because Emilia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: it's also like very different at the same time. Emilia: Yeah, it does, it very much feels like, and I, there's, I can't remember who said this to me, but how therapy works like an art form, that it's, it's not as cut and dry as, I mean, it could have been. Olivia: I think I I'm sure there's other people that have said this. I'm not like trying to like stake a claim on the market. Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: But I've definitely had somebody when they described it to me as that, like that there's Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: a there's a level of therapy that f is an art form. Like it's so true. Emilia: Yeah, it's Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: in my mind and in my practice, it's so much more creative and less clinical medical. Like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: the clinical informs my understanding of what's happening, but not really what's in the room day to day. Andrea: Yeah. That Olivia: Yeah, I like I like that shift. Andrea: Totally. And it's always changing. Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna like put you in the like super hot seat. It if you Emilia: Okay. Olivia: were trying to pitch psychodynamic theory to Andrea and I, who you know we both do not like that theory Andrea: Mm. Olivia: at all. Emilia: Ha ha ha ha! Olivia: Okay, so if you if you had to sit and pitch psychodynamic theory to us, because I know you use a lot of those like Emilia: huh. huh. Olivia: concepts and that and your approach, try can can you can you entertain us by trying to win us over? Emilia: So how I describe it to prospective clients, that's the time I talk about it the most. And here's the thing is I think you guys actually already do this. So I don't think that it's completely something that you're not behind, even though you say that. But Olivia: Yeah, it's fair. Emilia: because it's... It is about working with what's under the surface. So we're working with the unconscious mind. Sometimes that can be literal, we're working with dreams or we're working with fantasies or things like that. But most of the time it's looking for discrepancies, looking for contradictions, looking for... A lot of times it's the discrepancy of like what somebody says versus what their behavior is. Because underneath that, in the unconscious mind, is there's a conflict. And how do we bring alignment to that conflict? So at least in my understanding, No matter what modality you're using, you are touching on the psychodynamic all of the time. Olivia: Mm. Emilia: And also, psychodynamic is the lifespan. It's like going back to a story of even infancy and before that. mom going through when she was pregnant that could have impacted you, those sorts of things. Andrea: I guess I didn't realize that was part of a dynam psychodynamic approach. 'Cause I see that as a developmental narrative approach and that's what I use. Which is interesting. Yeah. Emilia: Right, so it's very similar. It's just like how you're coming at it. But like, yeah, psychoanalytic Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: theory and psychodynamic theory is very much like it's in the same vein. So my response would be, I think you guys already do it. So I don't know why Andrea: Wait. Emilia: you have such a problem with it. Andrea: Okay, in our defense, there is a person in our life that was very psychodynamic and approached it from a way that was not how you're describing it. Emilia: Sure, that's, yeah. Well because it can be described, or it can be perceived as very elitist because Andrea: Yes. Emilia: of the people who practice it. And I think that's, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: can you swear on this podcast? Olivia: Yes. Andrea: Yes. Emilia: I think that's bullshit. Olivia: That was the cutest little lead up. Adorable. Emilia: I'm Andrea: It was. Olivia: Yeah. It it Emilia: Ahem. Olivia: it really like it really to me just solidifies this idea that like if therapy was ice cream, all the different approaches would be just different flavours. But it would all be ice cream. Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: Or if therapy was a person, all the different approaches would be like a different style. Right? It's still Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: the same person. It's still the same base and foundation. It's Emilia: Uh-huh. Olivia: just like how we're wording things or how we're like what perspective we're using to try to understand what's happening, right? Emilia: huh. Olivia: 'cause yeah, like when you say it like that, yeah, absolutely I do that. But I I I have never I think once used the term subconscious. like Emilia: conscious. Olivia: in a like unconscious, subconscious. Emilia: Me being elitist. Olivia: No, that's fair. Normally it's me correcting Andrea, so Emilia: Hey! Olivia: I think I probably beyond deserved that. Emilia: never use the term subconscious. Olivia: Okay. Okay, fair. correction. I have never used the term unconscious. Like ever. Emilia: That's hilarious. I love it. Olivia: Ever. Andrea: I don't know if I really have either, except for when I'm being like kind of a brat therapist where I'm like, Let's talk about your dreams. What was your unconscious thinking about? Just like kind of being a brat? But then it always like triggers a good conversation. So like Emilia: Dreams are awesome. I love working with dreams. Olivia: Wait, I was just gonna ask, you do some level of dream analysis, right, within therapy, like as it comes up, Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: right? Emilia: Yeah, I try to bring dreams up in both my consultation calls and in first sessions because I want people to be thinking about their dreams. And sometimes it gets in and sometimes it doesn't. But the people who have regularly brought their dreams to therapy. We've done really cool, interesting work that just has a very different feel from when those elements aren't brought into the space. Andrea: Do you ever Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: get anyone that says that they'd never dream? Emilia: get people who say they don't remember their dreams and maybe they do say, I don't dream, but I don't think that that's real. Ha Andrea: Fair. I don't, yeah. I just was curious, what would you do in that situation if someone's I don't dream? like what? Emilia: Yeah, there's lots of other stuff to work with. So if dreams just Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: aren't like if they don't think that dreams are important and they don't there's no buy-in they're not going to bring their dreams and that's fine. Or if they say like, Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Emilia: I don't remember my dreams or I don't dream. It's like, okay, well, we should look at that because that probably means your sleep isn't great or there's some kind of repression happening. that we should talk about. Not that I say it that way, but it also like I've been just anecdotally the people that don't dream or don't remember their dreams often have are like smoking or using weed regularly. At least in some of the cases that I've had. And as soon as they start to wean off, Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: they start to dream again, which can be very scary for some people. Andrea: That's interesting. Yeah. Huh. Olivia: yeah. since I already was dumb before, I'm just gonna ask my dumb question, Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: which is To me, if somebody was like, I don't I don't really remember my dreams or I I just don't really dream, I wouldn't think twice about that. Is that actually a sign that they have poor sleep? Emilia: Not necessarily, but it could be. if they're not getting enough REM cycle sleep, they might not be dreaming enough to remember their dreams. I don't remember my dreams all the time, but there is like a connection with how your brain is sleeping and whether or not you're like, whether or not you're dreaming. Whether or not you remember your dreams, think. Andrea: Fascinating. Emilia: can be practiced. Andrea: Is that like is that lucid dreaming or is that different? Emilia: No, that's different. I just mean having Andrea: Okay. Emilia: like a dream diary and like first thing in the morning when you wake up, just kind of like Olivia: Mm. Emilia: associate, free associate, see if anything comes back. Yeah. Andrea: I do that. I have a note. Might have a note on my notes app of my weird ass dreams. Emilia: That's awesome. Let's analyze them. Andrea: Mostly because mostly because I want to save them for a rabbit trail episode or a weird voice memo to Olivia. Emilia: Hey, it's a good exercise for you, Andrea. I approve. Andrea: Great. It's fun. And then I look back on the notes app and I'm like, what is this? it's a dream. Emilia: Yeah, yeah, yes, I remember. It wasn't real. Olivia: That's so funny. do you feel like a lot of other people that are maybe a little bit more like psychoanalytic leaning are often more into dream analysis? 'Cause I feel like that at least from what I've seen, it seems to go a little bit more hand in hand. Emilia: would say that's where you're gonna find the people that do dream analysis but not everybody who does psychoanalysis or psychodynamic therapy does work with dreams. So yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, dreams kinda weird me out. I don't know if I really wanna like try to understand other people's dreams. I think I'm full up. I actually remember somewhat recently like finding out that you can do EMDR for dreams specifically. Emilia: That makes sense to me. Andrea: That's fascinating. Olivia: Yeah, what the person said I like, that can't be real and I was like, Well, I guess that's tr fair because the eye movement is like when you're in a dream. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: So I was like, yeah, that was I guess that was Emilia: It's also like your brain can't distinguish like necessarily what was dream from reality. So like if you're working with dream A, it's likely related to something that actually happened in real life. And B, it's like, it's going to have the same effect because in your brain it did happen. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Olivia: Interesting. Dreams are weird. I don't want to touch Emilia: I love it. Andrea: All right, I will voice memo you my next weird dream and you can tell me what you think. Emilia: I love it. Let's do it. Olivia: that's so funny. gosh. so since you are a late diagnosed clinician and also in this field it is so rampant, Emilia: you Olivia: I think we've talked to all of the different people that have been in the field that have been on the podcast about burnout. Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: because it i it is it is going strong out there. what what does burnout look like for you and how have you managed that so far in the field? Emilia: Well, it made me, that question made me think of one thing that I wanted to shout you out for was when I broke my ankle, that was January of 2024, and I was Olivia: Mm-hmm. Emilia: actively trying to hobble into the office every day. And I was having to like go downstairs to let, Clients in every hour. Andrea: In the n in the non ADA compliant building. Emilia: You were like, Amelia, I need you to work from home. And like, it just gave me permission to like, not work so hard to do this thing that clearly was like, totally taking it out of me. And just like the, the permission of like, you need to put yourself first. And if you're not doing well, you're not gonna take care of your clients well. I was like, yeah. So thank you for that. Olivia: I honestly totally forgot about that. That's funny now to remember that you were trying to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was it internally for me it was funny because Emilia: Yup, it wasn't funny at the time. But it's funny in hindsight. Olivia: I was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like what are Emilia: trying to please everyone else. Olivia: trying to take out your other foot? You've only got two legs. Like don't you got you need a one good one. Emilia: that was rough. Anyway, so there was definitely some burnout during that part. taking a day off every week for five weeks at the beginning of that year so I could just recuperate and that was because of you so thank you. burn out. I don't know that I'm doing very well. I'd say I've probably burnt out truly like twice in the last four years since I've been doing this. And I think once was... Olivia: Mm. Emilia: this, my ankle sprain and like how much, that was, was a really bad sprain. It took a long time to heal. I was totally immobile for two weeks and then like trying to function more than I should have been for the next week. And then finally like gave myself permission to like work from home and take time off and recuperate because I tend to push myself. And then there's the the tendency to push myself and then there's also the I don't recognize that I'm in burnout until I'm really far into it. And Olivia: Hm, that's real. Yeah. Emilia: then it's like, how did I get here? And there have been, yeah, like a couple of those moments, but since I've started my Private practice? That hasn't happened. I've had some personal stuff, I've had some health stuff and I've had some depression. My dog died last August. So there were a couple of things that happened in the last year that were really hard and that I had to... just pay more attention to what I needed, but. But the burnout didn't come in the same, like, it didn't come. I was close, but Olivia: Mm. Emilia: I was able to like not Andrea: So maybe you're Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: get there. Andrea: Yeah, so maybe you're closer to Emilia: Ahem. Andrea: recognizing it earlier than you realize. Emilia: Now, now that it's happened a couple of times. Yeah, I think so. Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: Yeah. But now there's a real Olivia: Mm. Emilia: understanding of like, I'm not doing great. Okay, like, what do I mean? But before it was very much this mindset of and I think that's a trap for clinicians is like, like you just want to see your clients and you don't want to let them down and like, showing up is the most important thing and taking time off is hard. Both especially Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: if you have a private practice and that's your livelihood but also because you don't want to like let your clients down when they're in need. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Or let alone I was thinking about this the other day. I because I don't think I've necessarily said it this way before, but it's also the executive function of communicating with every single person you see in the week that you're taking that week off and making sure you told every single person and Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: then like removing that from your calendar so you know you've told e you know what I mean? And like reminding Andrea: Hm. Olivia: them and giving them a heads up, like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: That requires so much capacity Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: that like totally it just it makes taking that time off even harder when there's already like a financial component, like like why we do this work component and like why it's important to us. But then Emilia: Hmm Olivia: there's just like the logistical aspect that it's like it's kind of a nightmare to do. Like I don't think we often talk about it, but it's so real. Emilia: Yeah. Andrea: I yeah, I took all of last week off and like one, I think there was one day or two days where I had multiple clients be like, do we not have session today? I was like, did I not tell them? And I was like, no, I know that I told them because I don't take the appointment off until I tell them. Like But it like it gets you in your head and you're like, my gosh, did I do it wrong? And Emilia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrea: it's that that perfect storm of like. how why we do what we do, but the executive dysfunction and the sh the l logistics and everything that just make it so Emilia: Yeah, yeah. There's also this piece, like this is kind of adjacent to what we're talking about, but I found that with running my own business, this summer, my admin stuff just went to hell. I just put everything off over the summer. And so I'm like, I've been playing catch up over the last month and a half. And just like all the tasks that like organizing the tasks and then starting the tasks and then. completing the tasks and then Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: I'm like, like this is hell. I hate this part. The most recent thing that happened was that my CPA disappeared. Andrea: we been there. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: We been there. Emilia: I hired her to do my bookkeeping and my taxes, so I was under the impression she has been doing my bookkeeping all year. Andrea: no. Emilia: She has not. So I have a conversation with a new CPA on Monday and I also applied for, this is a fun fact, there's a program, the ABC program, Accounting and Business Coaching. It's run by Seattle.gov. You can apply and they offer free coaching for like a certain amount of hours. So I'm learning bookkeeping. I've never done bookkeeping and I am about to find out how to do it. Olivia: Find out how much you don't want to have to do it. Emilia: 100 % but also I don't want to Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: pay for it so you gotta weigh the pros Olivia: Mm. Andrea: Well, Emilia: and cons. Andrea: we we paid for a bookkeeping tax CPA service and we had a bookkeeper for a while. She was great. But our annual taxes weren't done for more than six months. So Emilia: Whoa! Okay. Andrea: We feel that and we they never contacted us. We never had they never responded to emails, phone calls, nothing. But we did our bookkeeper did and she worked for him. Emilia: That's wild. Andrea: So what so we understand Emilia: can't believe that that's a thing. I guess like... If I died... Olivia: I don't know where this is going, but I'm on board. Okay. Andrea: Where is this going? Emilia: My clients would find out from Marin who runs Thrive Therapy Northwest. she has access to my sessions health and so she could contact everyone. Andrea: Do you do you have a professional will? Emilia: Not a full one. It's more of a, Andrea: we do. Emilia: hey, Marin, you got this, right? And she was like, yeah. That was how Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: that went. so I probably could do a little bit more around that, but... Olivia: I yes Emilia: Ahem. Olivia: and no. obvious somewhat obviously Andrea and I are each other's Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: like professional will but we've also had to have very different conversations because we run a business together, so what happens if I die? Andrea: Right. Olivia: does a business go to Andrea? Does my spouse get a portion? Does he not? but Emilia: Right. Olivia: if I'm not alive that business isn't generating that income anymore. So is there really a piece to buy out? You know what I mean? we've had we've had to have all those conversations. Emilia: Yeah, yeah. Olivia: So they're important totally. they might not inherently be like super comfortable, but they are really important. Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. We even have on our disclosure form that all of our clients sign like, Hey, if something happens to me, you're gonna hear from this specific person. Emilia: I think I have that on mine too. That was the reason I had that conversation Andrea: Yeah. It's helpful. Olivia: So yeah. Emilia: with Marin. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: See, there you you ha you have a professional will. Nailed it. Andrea: There you go. Emilia: Done. It's not very robust, but it's there. Olivia: You don't have to do anything more. Andrea: I will say one of the funniest things that I think Olivia had to do that's similar to that was like a contract with each other. we signed Emilia: huh. Andrea: a contract to work with each other, basically, when we were already yeah, we're good, but we wrote a very formal, professional legal Emilia: Yeah. Olivia: Business agreement. Yeah. Andrea: document. Emilia: you should. I can't tell you the number of like, anecdotally this has happened to multiple people in my life where they go into business with someone and it goes to hell and somebody screws the other person over. It can happen to anyone, so no handshake Andrea: Yeah. Emilia: agreements in this house. Olivia: Yeah. Well Andrea: We've made it past a year, which I feel like is better than a lot of business partnerships. So Emilia: Well you guys had a lot of practice Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: before you reached out on your own. Andrea: Yeah. Ain't that the truth? Olivia: Yeah. I I think like I f I think a true test to a friendship is if if you can go to that person to be like, Hey, I would feel more comfortable if we had a business agreement. Are you good with that? Can you sign that? And if that other person's like, yeah, like if that's what you feel comfortable with, like, absolutely, we should do that, like I think that's a good idea. But if they're like, no, we don't need that, like what are you talking about? Blah blah blah, like that's not an actual friend. Emilia: Yeah, I Andrea: Mm-hmm. Emilia: agree. Olivia: So I feel like Andrea: Yep. Olivia: the like w we I don't think technically we would need that, but I think like formally Emilia: Mm-hmm. Olivia: we both understood that it was important and we should do that, even though we don't have any concerns that it would go south. Emilia: Yeah, it is just best practice. Period. Olivia: Yeah, and we even had to add a amendment because the whole death thing. we're like, we should probably put that in there. Emilia: We should talk about that. Good for you guys. You're so adult. Andrea: We learning from past human mistakes and Emilia: Yeah, yeah, that happens. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, just maybe. Just maybe. my goodness. well, instead of asking you any more questions, because I feel like we could probably talk absolutely all night, because you're super cool and chill, would you ever consider coming back to the podcast and we could ask you even more questions and I can put you on the hot seat again. Emilia: Absolutely. Olivia: And as we discussed before we start a recording, we'll do that in four years because that's apparently your cadence for getting into podcasts. Emilia: Yeah, yeah, approximately four years. Olivia: Approximately four years. Perfect. That I think that I think we can fit that in the schedule, right, Andrea? Do you have the schedule pulled up? I'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Andrea: yeah, for sure. It's right here. Got it. I've got a hundred and fifty episodes before we get back to Amelia. Emilia: You two are so accommodating, Olivia: Yeah. Emilia: thank you. Andrea: my goodness. Olivia: my goodness. Well, thanks thanks everyone for tuning in and also big shout out to Amelia for joining us. Emilia: Thanks for having me. Olivia: Yeah, it's also no surprise like we love you. Thank Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: you great. Emilia: Yeah, you guys are the best. You guys are the ones who helped me enter into this field and become a clinician. So I really appreciate that. Olivia: Okay. my goodness. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in and watching, and we will catch you all in the next episode. Bye. This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org.