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Interview Only w/ John Ourand - How Money Has Reshaped Professional & College Sports · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: eight zero seven three four three nine eight five, and
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  Speaker 1: joining me now is somebody I've known a long time.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: He and I share an organization on our resume, the
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  Speaker 1: Sports Business Journal. I was there when it was a
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Sports business daily. It is John Oron who covers these
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: sports industry and I think that that's probably the best
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: way to describe it. I think some might think it's
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: sports media, but he's not. It's the whole, it's all
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: of it, and he does it for Puck, and he
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: does it quite well.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Puck.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, Pocket really is
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: sort of a high end almost concierge's news service of
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: like four big topics a tenpole in Hollywood, at ten
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: pole in Silicon Valley, and a ten pole in Washington,
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  Speaker 1: a tent pole in New York. You know, our money, power, politics,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: and sports of course has all of it, which is
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: why I think it's been a very successful expansion. John Oran,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: who's also a DMV er, So we get to geek
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: out on the Nationals at a minimum, right John, Well.
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  Speaker 2: You know I grew up in in DC when we
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  Speaker 2: didn't have a team, so my allegiance still up in Baltimore.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: In terms of MLBBA, I need.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: You go up I have a couple of friends who
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: are still having given up the Orioles. I Angelos made
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: it pretty easy for me to give up the Orioles.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't it wasn't that hard. I sort of. I
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  Speaker 1: grew up without a baseball team myself, right, you.
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  Speaker 2: Know what though, Like let me bring this up because
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  Speaker 2: like the Nationals one in twenty nineteen, and that's when
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  Speaker 2: I instantly regretted sticking with the Orioles. Of course, as
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  Speaker 2: you should, the learner sold everybody off. I mean, all
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  Speaker 2: the baseball owners. They're all the same jock. Come on,
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  Speaker 2: I know they all.
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  Speaker 1: It is true, like David Rubinstein's turned out to be
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  Speaker 1: a disaster, and I did not. And I remember mourning
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  Speaker 1: when he went to when he bought the Orioles instead
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  Speaker 1: of BC. I thought, my god, if anybody can fix
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  Speaker 1: National monuments, uh, it is David Rubinstein. I mean I
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  Speaker 1: think I saw him as the fixer of the Commanders,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: the fixer of and it just broke my heart when
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  Speaker 1: he went to Baltimore. But he s turned out to
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  Speaker 1: be a terrible owner.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I have a knit to pick with your intro
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  Speaker 2: because you said you were we share you know, a
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  Speaker 2: resume thing. You said you were with it when it
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  Speaker 2: was Sports Business Daily. You were the original editor of
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Managing editor BJ SBJ pretty much wouldn't exist without you.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you your yours, you know, sports
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  Speaker 2: business bona fides, Chuck. I mean, you're more than just
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  Speaker 2: sort of a peon on Sports Business Daily like you were,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: you were the guy there.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: It's this thread into the sports world that gives me
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: semi legitimacy. With my partnership with Jay and donde as
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: we've been doing dabbling into sports history and and you'll
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: appreciate this pretty much in every one of these We've
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  Speaker 1: done four dives on these sort of dynastic franchises and
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: we like one will being the previous one. I'm always
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  Speaker 1: obsessed with the business side of things and the ownership
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: side of things and how that all that has worked.
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  Speaker 2: And it's.
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  Speaker 1: I tell you, there's nothing I enjoy more than the
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  Speaker 1: stories of old past NBA owners because the NBA owners
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  Speaker 1: could have easily been you and me, Like literally anybody
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  Speaker 1: could have gotten a team if you had access to
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  Speaker 1: an arena in the sixties or seventies. You want to
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  Speaker 1: be an owner, literally no money down, you know, we'll
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  Speaker 1: finance you down the road. I mean, it's so I
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  Speaker 1: really do been enjoying some Just just to take that
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a little bit forward, they're launching something called like a
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  Speaker 1: horse racing league, and they're trying to find money.
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  Speaker 2: And the person behind the horse racing league is Greg Mthay,
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  Speaker 2: who of course used used to run Liberty, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and has oodles of money. So like, we couldn't even
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  Speaker 2: do a horse racing team or a horse racing league.
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  Speaker 2: But back in the day, yeah, just anybody could own
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  Speaker 2: an NBA team. For exact I.
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  Speaker 1: Remember being at a dinner with Gordon Gunn who told
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  Speaker 1: me some crazy stories David Stern begging him please take
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  Speaker 1: the Cavaliers. It was like, you know, please help us
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  Speaker 1: out here. You know. Of course turned out to be
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  Speaker 1: the best business decision he ever made, right, But it
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  Speaker 1: was just, you know, the NBA in the seventies man
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  Speaker 1: on that front, and we did the Warriors, and you
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  Speaker 1: realize so many of those teams were literally they didn't
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  Speaker 1: know if the paychecks would clear. Yeah, which is a
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  Speaker 1: lot of fun. But I want to start with sort
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: of look first, I'm always fascinated when somebody enters the
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  Speaker 1: club of sort of one hundred. For me, the club
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  Speaker 1: of one hundred is owning one of a major league
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  Speaker 1: sports franchise. It's a little bit more than one hundred franchises.
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  Speaker 1: But the club of one hundred, who are these folks
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  Speaker 1: in Seattle? Ten billion dollars the new floor for an
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  Speaker 1: NFL franchise. Are these going to be people who will
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  Speaker 1: be famous? Or will these this be an ownership group
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  Speaker 1: that will always have to Google to find out who
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  Speaker 1: it is?
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  Speaker 2: You know, we don't know that yet because you don't
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  Speaker 2: know until they take ownership over the team. So sort
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  Speaker 2: of how they're going to work with the league, and
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  Speaker 2: how they how much how much they want to work
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  Speaker 2: with the league and the uh, you know, the some
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  Speaker 2: microchip business or the Silicon Valley business and all of
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  Speaker 2: a sudden, now you can own an NFL team. But
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  Speaker 2: I think that's the story that really intrigues me about
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  Speaker 2: Seattle Truck is just this has to be among the
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  Speaker 2: last like family financed purchases.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, this is why, well we keep saying this,
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  Speaker 1: We've been saying that the end we are ending an
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  Speaker 1: era of the family owned team, right like the Raiders. Essentially,
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  Speaker 1: if you're not second or third generation, the Hallis family,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know that's probably the next great,
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  Speaker 1: you know, massive sale whenever that happens with the mccasked
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  Speaker 1: sideh Alas family. But we've been we've been sort of
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  Speaker 1: writing the obituary for the family owned sports team for
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  Speaker 1: a couple of decades.
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  Speaker 2: Now, haven't we Yeah, we have, and but now we're
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  Speaker 2: actually starting to see it, which is why you have
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  Speaker 2: all of the leagues are allowing private equity to come
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  Speaker 2: in and take bigger and bigger slices of the teams
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  Speaker 2: because there's so few people that can afford it. Or
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: you know, even in our hometown with the Commanders, do
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  Speaker 2: you know it's not a fully Josh Harris funded purchase.
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  Speaker 2: He's listed as the owner, but you know there are
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  Speaker 2: a bunch of like really powerful people behind him on
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  Speaker 2: that as well.
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  Speaker 1: How did we go in three years? I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know about you. Did your stock portfolio go up
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  Speaker 1: fifty percent in three years because we just went from
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  Speaker 1: the Commanders, who arguably are a ten pole franchise no
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  Speaker 1: fence to my friends and the other Washington. Yes, there
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  Speaker 1: was a fire sale like mindset with the Commanders, so
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  Speaker 1: maybe there was some lesson value but we went from
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  Speaker 1: a six billion dollar to a ten billion dollar in
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  Speaker 1: three work me if I remember my transaction was three
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  Speaker 1: and a half years ago.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that the uh, there are a
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  Speaker 2: couple of things at play here. One is that all
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  Speaker 2: of the leagues allowed the private equity to come into.
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  Speaker 1: This, and the private equity has just been able to
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  Speaker 1: It's just more access to cash exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And as you said, what did you call it the
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  Speaker 2: Club of one hundred. It's an exclusive club and people
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  Speaker 2: want to get into that club.
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  Speaker 1: And Simmons has said this, you don't know the name
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  Speaker 1: of rich people unless they own a sports franchise, right,
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  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's through good, They're just another
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: rich guy. But now Josh Harris is a rich guy
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: who owns the Sixers, and there he'd just be a
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: private equity guy right outside of the financial world. Do
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you know who Ray Dalio is? Yeah, right, it's Ray
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Dalio owned the Dallas Cowboys. Everybody would know who Ray
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Dalio is.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jerry Jones, we know him, chapter and verse. But
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: there also is and I'm gonna I'm talking a little
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: bit out of my depth here, so like if my
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep. But
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: there have been some sort of tax changes as well
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: that sort of you know, have helped these values sort
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: of increase and the the you know, the money that
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: they pay for it. You know something about the taxing
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: on it that I shouldn't better, But yeah, some tax
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a journalist, I'm not a CPA, so I have
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: no clue when we as you can tell I'm starting
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to start.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Here's all you need to know is that the US
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: federal tax code is a freaking mess.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, and we just dealt with that these billionaires.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, if we just.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Dealt with the loopholes, we wouldn't have to worry about
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: specialized wealth taxes and stuff. It's just like, if the
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: percentage was the percentage you pay thirty nine percent, you
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: pay twenty thirty eight percent, you paid twenty nine percent.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: But that is not how obviously we all know our
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: tax code work. So I I you are forgiven for that,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and I get that.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Let me let me ask you a quick question. Because
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: A Snyder bought the Redskins now commanders for you know,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: less like less than a billion dollars.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And then remember poor old John kN Cook couldn't come
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: up with the matching offer.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Remember, yeah, try as he wanted because he didn't allow
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: private equity then.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: And he had his own tax problems by what was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: inherited from the team, Like it was a I do
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: think what you're describing, and I don't. We're both on
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: over our skis on this sounds like. But I think
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: with the current tax code, maybe John can, maybe Jack
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: could have left him the.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Team or something along those lines. But where I was
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: going for this, as I used to, I started writing,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: what a what a return? Bought it for less than
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: a billion, and so for six billion, and somebody was like,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: you know, that's not a great return. After after you know,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: twenty years or however long he ended up having it.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Well, he devalued it, right, he found ways to Yeah,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I mean he was.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: We lived in the town. We saw at firsthand. Oh
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: sure he was a terrible steward. He cost himself all
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: sorts of all sorts of sort of recurrent cash payments
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: when it came to you know, the fan base and
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: all of that.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: But I guess the question I have because you know,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: are we you know, I think this with media rights deals,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: that there's no way leagues can continue to get the
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: percentage increases they get for their TV deals, which of
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: course produce the increased valuations for these franchise fees. You know,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: maybe it's the same question people ask when the stock
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: market's on this crazy run. This is a bubble, right,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: this is going to burst and it's going to get ugly. Right,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: what am I missing? And we've never had that. We
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: haven't had that in the sports world, honestly since the
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: infamous billion dollar baseball deal that just essentially destroyed CBS
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: and inineteen ninety and arguably cost CBS its entire you know,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: what CBS is today, you could argue begins with the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: overpaying for baseball in nineteen ninety Yeah.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Man, that was also when the Fox came in and
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: overpaid drastically for the NFL. You know, back in nineteen
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: ninety three, for two hundred and fifty million they paid,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: you know, which I think is enough for like two games?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Is redesigned? I mean, I always say, look, we started
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: this in nineteen ninety four. I you know, I think
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Sports Business Daily Slash Journal can beat its chest. It
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: was sort of like if it hadn't been founded, somebody
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: else would have done it because so much happened that year,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: probably this single most important year in the history of
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the sports, of the sports industry in the United States,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: between that Fox transition, MLS launches, lockouts, and baseball in
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the NHL. I mean, it was, it was, and I
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: always said it was the moment that even the sports
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: industry realized, oh, we're not a hobby anymore.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: We are an industry. So I love your question because
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: ever since I've started reporting on this, which is a
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: long time, the everybody has been telling me right about
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: the bubble of sports media rights, it's going to happen.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And then we have the NFL signing one hundred and
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: ten billion dollars worth of deals, one hundred and ten billion,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: and then within two years that looks below market because
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: the NBA, you know, those sold its right as well.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: But there's something happening now that I'm not willing to look.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: It's been going on for so long, I'm not willing
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: to call it a bubble. But there is something happening
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: here with the media business that gives me some pause.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: The NFL is going to be fine. The NBA obviously
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: is fine. I think baseball is okay in big time
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: college I think that they're fine as well, But there's
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: a middle class of sports rights that I think, you know,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: winner could be coming for them if you take.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: A look for referring to is this w n B
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: A NHL? Is that where you would go call the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: middle class of sports NHL?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Would My job, Chuck, is to figure out where that
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: line is drawn. But if I were the PGA Tour,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I would be I would be concerned.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I think that is the dirty little secret about PGA
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Tour is they have no control over the four majors
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: right exactly. Yeah, And the only thing that at this point,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it's the only thing of valued.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: And and they're right now tied to CBS, which, as
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: you know you've been reading and writing about, you know,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Paramount's debt load. They're going to have to cut costs,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: uh NBC. They're newly spun out from comcasts, so.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: They you know, they no longer look at everybody's wondering
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: what's coming there?
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I mean you know somebody who owns a lot of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Comcast stock, I'm wondering, well, am I you know in
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: for a diamond for a dollar? Let's what does this mean?
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to Comcast stock?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Is great. I'm terrible on the stock market, but I
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: they're okay.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: But the stock price, there's a reason he's doing this.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Stock price has been tanking for a year and a half.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's just it's it's been nothing but
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: a downward trend line because every look, Comcasts fell into
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: this trap. You wrote about this a few times. Comcast
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: was too big to buy and too but too small
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: to compete, and it had to figure out how could
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: it get bigger? Well, you know, it's funny, and I
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: say this. I like Brian Roberts. I know him a
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: little bit, but I'm not going to pretend I know
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: him really well. But he was look, he ran it
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: like a family business, so he was very mindful of overspending.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: I think he did think he overspent on Sky, and
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: he didn't want to do it again. So then what
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: did he do? He came up short on Fox, came
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: up short on Warner Brothers, came up short on and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I an activision, and I think, you know, the Sky
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: deal spooked him. And then now Cast is looking around
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: going well, what are we now? And it certainly feels
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: like it's the beginning of the disaggregation. I guess of
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: the entire company.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's you're going to feel this in a
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: lot of sectors. But I cover that, I cover sports,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and so you know there are going to be there
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: are going to be leagues that if the leagues don't
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: help these networks get the cable operators and satellite operators
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: who still matter. Cord cutting is happening, but they still
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: matter to pay an added rights fee or a license
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: fee there, then they're not going to be as interested.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: And then these leagues. I've been looking at Netflix and
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Apple and Amazon and YouTube, like three trillion dollars market
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: cap companies, and they're like, all right, we're gonna we're
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: gonna be fine. Well we're seeing with that. Like Netflix
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: is very happy with just five NFL games. They don't
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: need to carry carry everything. Amazon they very well with
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Thursday night Football, Like, well what about Sunday Night Football?
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Do you want that? We're happy with. All we need
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: is one package of games. So this idea that that
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: they they're going to come in and keep bidding up
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: these rights, I think is fanciful. I question that. And
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: then then just one more quick point I want to
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: make on that, Chuck, is if Amazon gives up Sports tomorrow.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I bet their stock goes up like and they don't
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: need they don't need the NFL. And so what I
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: find fascinating is this relationship that the NFL dictates to
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: the traditional like linear TV, it's totally turned around when
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: it comes to these streamers, and it's it's it's really
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: kind of a fascinating thing to watch.
• 18:50
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• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the NFL can't allow itself to be priced out of
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: the market for CBS, ABC and NBC and Fox, and
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: at the same time, there's more money in the other
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Banana stands right of streaming. But the streamers don't need
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the NFL the way. You know, look at what Peacock
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: subscriptions are like. You know, when there's an NFL game
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: only right, you know, they know their own churn paramount
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: plus this UFC. They may drop golf, but they're not
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: going to drop UFC right because and it may be
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: that the stickier niche sports become right. You know, hockey
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I think is valuable because of its obsessive fan base.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: You know, that is somebody that putting them behind a
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: paywall will probably pay. I'm not sure I would do
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: that for the WNBA yet. I don't think it has
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that fan base that's ready to pay extra money. Maybe
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong. You know where we could find out. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I wonder on that, and it's like, I feel like
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you tell me. But the NFL seems so focused on
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: how much more money can get out of the streamers
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: that it may regret essentially pricing their legacy broadcast partners
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: out of them market right.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I do think the NFL is conscious about not wanting
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: to have the legacy media companies pay so much that
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: it hurts their business. They want as much money as
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: they can get But if you're the NFL, you're also
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: looking at you know, they want they want Fox to
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: pay you know, let's say half a billion dollars a
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: year more for their package, you know, as part of
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: a renewal, and Fox is saying, we can we can't
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: afford that were you know, there's no way we can
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: afford that. And then Fox turns around finds and there's
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: couch cushions twenty two billion dollars to buy Roku And
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: the NFL is like, wait, wait a sell. You just
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: said so you can't afford We know there's money there.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: So that's sort of the push and pull that that's
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: happening inside the NFL as well.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: One of the reactions I've had to watching Netflix put
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: on live sporting events is like, take what they did
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: baseball in the home run derby and what they did
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: with the opening game as well, which I enjoyed their coverage.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I think they played to kersh Off. I remember doing
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: the first maybe they know that was they had Yankees Dodger.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I think it was must have been Peacock that had
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers Padres. But it was really cool to have
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: kershawf commentate first game in retirement and it was just
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: it was it was great. But what I noticed about
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Netflix's coverage is that it felt familiar. Netflix has no
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: sports division. There's no people you say, oh, that's a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Netflix sports ankling. But they had people that you see
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: on MLB network or they had people that you see
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: on the other channels. And it got me thinking, is
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: all production going to start to move in house with
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: the bigger leagues, and that the network partners are simply
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: distributors and they took the talent and like you'll start
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: to see I mean, you're almost there with how MLB
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: is managing things, certainly with their TV right the first
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: of all two things. One, I think the next broadcasts
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: are technically so much better than what masson did you
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: know we can?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: We can?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to get the discussed.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Mass and Mason didn't care about the Nats. I think
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Madison's clear right, like a.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Great yeah, But the MLB broadcast whether you're watching a
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Twins game, you're watching a NATS game, you're watching a
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Marlins game. When I'm down here in Florida, they're running
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: those as well. There. It is a higher quality, right,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: rather than hoping the regional partner will figure out how
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: to do this. Is that a future are we going
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to see the leagues become their own production houses so
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: they can continue to piece meal out games on there,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: so they control branding a little bit more, maybe even
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: they even control ad sales a little bit more. Just
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: watching the Netflix thing, that struck me that Netflix was
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: likely doing third party stuff like that.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm skeptical of that. I can I can
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: see where that's going. The PGA tour just for example,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: just build a huge production facility down in Florida. You know.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So with that thought in mind, within the business, there
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: are there isn't a World Cup.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Isn't the World cupping broadcast this way where really the
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: broadcasters aren't doing the work, it's World Cup's own.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I was taking issue with your
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: sort of bringing it in house. I do think that
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the leagues could control because because you have you have
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: in the market, you have things like you know, Omaha
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Productions or you know, I'm going to I shouldn't name cousin.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: My production team is part of the owners of by
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: production team or part owners and oh there you go.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Well they're kind of distant cousins. We're kind of related.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I hope to get the backsplash.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: From Oma Connorshell and words and pictures. There's like ever
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: wonder as well. You have a lot of sort of uh,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you know, big production companies out there that are slowly
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: getting more into live sports, and so so do I
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: see the NFL is sort of opening up a you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: its own production facility and doing that. They just sold
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: their media to to ESPN. I think that the leagues
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: have seen that and don't necessarily want to do it,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: but I can see them partnering with one of these
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: independent production companies and then sort of the controlling the
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: video sort of that way, you know, as opposed to
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: isn't that what.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: ESPN is pivoting to is a business themselves?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: They're now the operator of MLB TV. What does that mean?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Are they the distributor or are they the operator? They're
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: the distributor right now, and that's a deal. That's a
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: deal that only lasts for another like two years and
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: then and then they'll have to renegotiate it. But that's
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: that's more of a streaming play of trying to grow
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: their app because you know, if you want to watch
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: the nets and stream it as opposed to buying cable
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: then you would go through ESPN to to get that.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: There's still the single best functioning league based app as MLBS.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Like well, they were always ahead of the game. Yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: they were always early on this, and it's fine, right
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: for for the for the sport that's always the most
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: tradition bound, right, the sport that's thought of to be
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: too slow. For the modern air. All these things much
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: much better on the streaming.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Side, and that's that's a legacy of bud ceiling and
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: bud seiling. You know when you talk about that. It's
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: funny now to listen to NBA people talking about the
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: MLB and saying, like, I wish we could change like them,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: because they have. They've brought in a clock to baseball.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Who would have ever thought in the in the bud
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: ceiling gear that they would do that, And they've you know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: they've they've made the games a lot, uh at least
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: regular season games a lot shorter, and it's a they've
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: they've done a lot to sort of try to modernize it.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: But that that legacy of of media is it is
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: kind of fascinating to me.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about this journalism issue in sports. I was
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: with one of the people that are an executive for
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Metal Arc and they were talking about and they were
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I was on a panel with him them will about You,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: and he was talking about the success that Pablo Torre
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: has had and that it would have been harder for
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Pablo to be successful had they been a direct rights holder. Right.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It was just sort of the the just the reality
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: when you're a rights holder as a media company, your journalism,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: your news division pays a price, whether intentional or not.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: How have you observed this and watched this.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I've seen, here's my here's my honest answer. I just
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: don't know. Because let's take ESPN for example. Don Van
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Nada is, uh, you know, a fantastic writer, and he's
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: one that every every ESPN or every ESPN president always
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: points to to say, let about, well, they just hired
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: a bunch of people, you know Ben Strauss and and uh,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: you know Seth Wickersham, and they write they write stories
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: that the leagues don't like necessarily and so that they
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: don't have a ton but they do have them, and
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: they do do it. And what I've been looking at
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: is where do they put it, and I think they
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: treat Don pretty well. They put him on.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I think Don's treated well, and I would make almost
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: him an exception. But the fact is ESPN feels like
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: they're not going to do what expos that the athletic
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: might do. No, they're not going to do as many. Okay,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: they may do one, right and they may do They're
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: not going to tell They're not going to risk Don
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Vanatta going public and saying they wouldn't let me do
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: a story. So it's sort of like he I think
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: he has the reputation.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's sort of like the old Dick
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Eversol trick at NBC where it was like, Okay, look,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about how bad Russia is before
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: the Olympics, but we're going to have Bob Kosis do
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: it between six thirty and seven on the first day,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: so then we can point and say like.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Look, look get it, and look you know I know
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: that trick myself, right, and I got I've I had
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: some back and forth with sports when I was at
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Meet the Press when we would have a big event,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: super Bowl of the Olympics, and the sports guys would
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: push back on coverage and go why why you know,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I'll never forget one one conversation I had with an
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: NBC sports executive who said, why do you guys only
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: care about gay rights the two weeks that I'm here
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: in soaching, and I You're like, you know, I have
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: to put on this event. You know, I've got a
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: business today. And here's the thing. I respect that. Okay,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I get it. You've got a deal and you're dealing
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: with this host country, and you know, yeah, it's you
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: have a ninety five percent chance of not being thrown
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: at a Google log, but you know there's like a
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: five percent chance you could right, it is bouten right.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: This isn't a legitimate figure you're dealing with. So I
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: understand the intellectual pushback that way a little bit. But
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: when I said to him, it's like, you know, it's
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: sort of like, what why do you rob banks? That's
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: where the money is. Why are we talking about I mean,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: it's because it's where the world is focused, and something
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: like gay rights is something that you yeah, they want
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: to be an international a host, Well, people need to
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: know they're not very welcoming right uncertainty to certain people.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: So but you know, it does this stuff does create
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: tension that these days, because the news divisions bring in
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: no money, news divisions lose these arguments left and right.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: H Yeah. I do think that ESPN really, under Steve
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Bornstein and George Bodenheimer, if you want to go way back,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: you know, really started to focus on on on building
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: up ESPN News, and of course under John Skipper, he
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: made it a point to do.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: It for the Metal Arc help founded in part by Skipper.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Exactly, if you if you talk to Jimmy Pittaro, who
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: is the current head of ESPN, he doesn't want to
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: be the person that that kills journalism at ESPN, and
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: so she does.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be that executive John.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And so so that that also kind of plays into
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: it too. I do wonder. I don't. I don't. I've
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: never worked for ESPN. I've ever written written for ESPN.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I would imagine though, as a reporter, you kind of
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: know the where the third rail is and you kind
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: of you know, you can walk up to it, but
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: you you know, and how much does it does that
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: mute you sort of at the reporter level or at
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the managing editor level, or you know that you know
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: several rungs below.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: You know, the worst censorship is usually it's funny you
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: bring it up that way. I always said that the
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: worst censorship sometimes self censorship.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: My my advice to people that are work and are
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: worried about it is push until they say no, push
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: until they push back. Don't assume it to know, right,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: because then you're self censoring. Right then you're you're, you're,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: you're almost you're you're you're dooming yourself before you get there.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: But you know, you also brought up pabulatory. I had
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Pablo on my pod a while back, and one of
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: the things I was like, you know, I think that
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: there are people at the New York Times and established
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: media places that were like that story that he did
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: on the Clippers, which is look as a story of
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: a journalist dreams. It's creating change, it's creating you know,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: and and and he was out in front of it.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Even Pablo would say, like he didn't have it sort
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: of nailed down enough to be published by the Gray.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Lady, you wouldn't have been able to go in right away. Yes,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: now it's look, I think that I do think that
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: journalism is certainly we're all everything is evolving open source
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: reporting reporting A should go broadcasting it, you know, imagine
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: writing a book and have it and publishing it a
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: chapter at a time, right, Neil Charles Dickens days like
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: in someone you know And in some ways that that
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: may be sort of how I think that's how they
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: approach it, you know, because there is some sense of
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: if you go out there, you'll get suddenly, it will
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: shake the tree a little bit, and then suddenly you'll
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: get a couple more sources. Right, I mean, what's the
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: That's one of the lessons we learned from all the
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: presidents met, Right, That's one of the lessons they tell
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: you in the movie. Essentially you got this wrong, but
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: it smoked out another source that actually gave you more
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: than you ever thought you had. Yeah, and so there's
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: nothing you know to me when you're trying to find
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the truth, you know, whether you're an investigator or whether
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: you're a reporter, some of the tactics are very similar that. Yeah,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: sometimes smoke stuff.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Invite people to complain about my story because it leads
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: to another story, like.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, please, corrections and complaints have always been the
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: best source building I've.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Ever had, no doubt.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Let's I want to pivot here a little bit too,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: sports culture politics, right, that sort of nexus. And I
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: had a conversation with my friend who does in the
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: sports world, Jason Page, and he's been you know, and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I've always said, people's people don't like sports figures talking
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: about politics they don't agree with. People love sports figures
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that talk about the politics that they agree with. They think,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: oh wow, what a smart and intellectually, you know, open
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: minded person when they agree with you, right, Like, that's
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: sort of I think how we generally are on this topic.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: But do you sense our leagues more nervous about this,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: less nervous about this? Are players more mindful of this?
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Less mindful? Is there enough happened so far that we
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: see any sort of new ways this sort of half
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: generation of players are handling?
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: You know, I wish I could identify a trend. The
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: only trend that I can identify is, you know, from
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: when you started sports Missus Daily, Like the end of
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the did Jordan even say that Republicans by secrets?
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: She's never been able to confirm the quote itself, the
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: actual quote, I think a paraphrase. But he didn't endorse
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: in that Senate race between Harvey Gant, African American at
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: the time mayor of Charlotte, and Jesse Holse, who was
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: iconic in his polarizing on the issue of race as
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: far as some people were concerned, So it was a
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: big deal and they wanted. Nineteen ninety was basically Jordan
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: at the peak of his powers. Jordan does endorse Bill
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Bradley in two thousand, by the way, and he's you
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: know when he was for that brief second retirement before
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: before he donned the Wizard's colors. One of my favorite
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: little side projects, John, is I collect Michael Jordan card's
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: basketball cards in Wizards uniforms. Oh, that's great. They're cheaper
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: to acquire.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you? Can I tell you? I don't
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: want to get you off topic. But that was a
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: great couple of years, wasn't it. Those place was filled. Yeah,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: we didn't really win a ton, but it was just fun. Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: No, right, You're like, I'm sorry, It's like, you know
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: what I enjoyed. I enjoyed the Eagles about six months ago.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Are they passed their prime?
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: But I still enjoyed it, just like Michael Jordan was
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: he passed his pride. Yes, was it kind of chunky
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Guess what, he's the Don Hensel. I like that. Yeah,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: A little chunky Michael Jordan because it was still more
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan than we ever got. But no Jordan. You know, look,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and I've always thought the eight I've always thought that
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: was generational. I've got a theory on that, right, is
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: that Jordan Magic. They were this sort of they were
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the first star players post Civil Rights movement, okay, And
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: there was a total business retreat by that class of
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: African American athlete. Eighties nineties African American athlete was all
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: about when they were it was almost collectively, we're here
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: to make business deals. Magic, mister businessman. Right Shack was
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: a business guy, Michael. We went at that generation, the
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: generation just after the Civil rights right. You Jim Brown,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali Kareem, you know, those were super activists and
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: to me, Jordan was sort of part of that generation.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: It was like, you know what, no, no, no, We're I'm
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: not doing politics for now. I've got a business that
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I put together and thought that get separated. And now
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I would argue we're now in a generation of athletes
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: that are sort of looked more like the athletes of
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies than the athletes of the eighties
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: and nineties.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that are more prone to and you also have
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: it's so tough for me to talk about this during
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: the Trump here because Trump is so polarizing and he's.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Inserted, he inserts himself into so many of our sports
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and cultural events that even if you don't want to
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: mix politics, done for you whether you want it or not.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: And so that that UFC a fight fight that was
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: on the White House lawn got bonkers numbers, chuck like,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: it did really really well the US. It was the
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: USA match against Belgium. After he got involved with it
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: with the red card. You set a record for viewership.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: It was going to be big anyway because it was
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: a World Cup in the last sixteen. But he didn't
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: depress people from watching it. People, I mean, in fact,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: you could argue possibly more people and ended up watching
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: it as well. So you are seeing like we're just
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: in a point where like he's inserting himself into into
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: more this this Uh in d C, they're going to
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: have the IndyCar race going around the Capitol up and down,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: you know, Independence Avenue, I bet you that gets like
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: such records for IndyCar in terms of in terms of
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: a TV audience. So you know there there is a
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: certain megaphone that it's coming from it on the other
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: side as well.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you
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  Speaker 1: vary and rates may vary. Hey, polarization's been good for
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the attention of common that doesn't mean it's been good
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: for society. Right The attention economy.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just want to say I was strictly
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: talking about television rating. No, you're not wrong.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, I have this whole thesis that basically,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: you know, this is what we the incorrect lesson. We
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: all learned from ojon the Ojson coverage of O. J.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Simpson when the decision. It was the first time a
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: major news story was covered because that's what the public
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: wanted rather than that's what the journalists wanted. And we've
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: never stopped. We really never stopped since then. And you
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: could argue the attention economy of today. The building blocks
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: were built by OJ and Robert Kardashian, right, you know.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: And Mamie's newsroom. We all crowded into the one room
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: that had a television set and watched it is it is.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: It is funny to see where we were and to
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: see where we are.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: On that thing.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I say this because and I'm doing. I have
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: a fun little list that I did last episode about
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: five active players who I think would be pretty good politicians,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: and my number one is Kaitlyn Clark. And my rationale
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: for her is I think it's remarkable how much she
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: has kept her cool, how much She is not for
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: somebody that is pulled into all sorts of culture war debates.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: And she does not budge right, she doesn't ever give
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: it oxygen, and yet it's still there anyway. I think
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: what's happening to her is it's just it's very difficult.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: She's going through something. And I look, yes, she's got
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: millions of dollars, so I'm not going to say to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: her and say woe is Caitlin Clark. But there's something
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: that you know, there's a joylessness to this that's really
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: it's really sad to watch, but I am impressed with
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: how she seems.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Me let me ask you a quick question about it.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: But I'm curious what you how you're covering this? How
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: would you how would you how do you remember you
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: know a comparable like sort of a white athlete going
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: into into a blacksport like Larry Bird coming in, you know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: and there was a focus on him, and that was
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: when the end it was. It was very physical.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: There was and I think there's look, I kind of
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I enjoy w n b A right now more than
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: the regular NBA because it's a little bit more physical,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: because it's a more they play at the rim a
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: little bit more right. It's a it's a it's the
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: game that you and I, You and I grew up
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: with in the eighties and nineties more than the than
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: the NBA game. So I I like, I enjoy that
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: style because it's the style that my formative years. So
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I think there's certainly something to that, but I think
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: it's more of the you know, trying to be used
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: as a symbol. And I agree with you. Larry Bird wouldn't.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: He was very He just never gave anybody if people
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: wanted to create a race fight between him and Magic
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: and its just the two of them weren't going to
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: let it happen. They just never were going to let
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: it happen. And obviously no social media. Who knows right?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: You know, Bird was known to have a short fuse himself,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: so who knows right? In the era of social media
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: fan empowerment. You know, we've talked about the player empowerment area.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I'd argue we have a fan empowerment era when it
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: comes to thinking what you can tell an athlete or
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: they say or do. But it's an interesting it's a
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: fair it's a fair argument.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: I will say this. I was just on a panel
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: with Christine Brennan, who wrote a book about Kaylen Clark.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: And sure enough, Kaylen did not work with Christine book.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: She is not proactively to me, at least, it doesn't
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: appear maybe you know, different, to worry about shaping this
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: or shaping that or all of that. Like she just
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: seems to try to be like, I just want to
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: play basketball.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed. Yeah, And I'm probably channeling Christine here, but
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: her popular, she is so popular, and she was popular
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: and when she was in imagine this, when she was
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: in college. The final of the women's Final four got
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: more viewers than the final of the men's Final four,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: which had never happened before and hasn't happened since and
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: probably won't happen for another decade at least if then.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And there's a so the story that I'm that I'm
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: watching cover the business and the celebrity of it a
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: little bit, But it doesn't seem like the NBA, the
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: w n b A is doing enough to sort of
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: to help the just to not to help Caitlin Clark
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: out or call the fouls. Just there's undeniable popularity there,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: like use it like it's only going to be here
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: for a little bit, right, did you read that?
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't believe the story I read a
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. I think it was you know,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: I'm here given ESPN grief, and I think it was
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: a good ESPN story. It was a business story about
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: the launch of Nike, Nike finally launching a Caitlin Clark ship,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm letting her going, wait what we're and they
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: haven't done that in alo.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: They're getting nil in college right now, so I mean,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: what is Nike?
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: And then I was, you know, it was funny. It
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: was to me a reminder of how company's atrophy. And
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: here's Nike, who used to be this incredibly nimble company,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: you know, would be would take a few risks every
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: now and then, you know, with their athletes and would
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: always lean in very player focus, very athlete focused. And
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: everything I learned from that piece seemed to be that
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of bureaucracy behind the scenes that
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: kept preventing them from getting their clerk shoe out. And
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: You're like, you literally had the greatest moment this generation
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: for women's basketball, and you have you'd literally let let
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: the moment pass. You missed you know your opportunity to
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: make it. These probably the most popular shoe as a
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: as a holiday gift they you know, had they launched
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: it the year you know she she turns pro just
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: as it's it's been strange to watch Nike handle her
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: and strange to watch the w n B a normally
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: and who it's still run by the NBA, right and their.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Market and you go back to you were talking about
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Jordan at the height of his powers or like Magic
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: and Bird, the NBA, David Stern, they pushed that out there.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: That was that wasn't just part part of the network marketing.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: That was part of the league marketing to get that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: out there. But but the the w NBA just does
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: they seem to be shorthanding that a lot. And I
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: get it.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Look, they're afraid of creating race debates, creating debates about
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: sexuality and all this, and to me, they're coming up
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: with a bunch of reasons not to do something. And
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: so what it looks like is just you see it
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: in a lot of organizations when you've allowed fear of
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: what could be a reaction paralyzing mm hmm. And we
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: don't even know that the public will react. The way
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: they think, and yet they're behaving as if they're just fearful.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And in Kathy Engelbert's defense, I suspect the public
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: will react that she expects, you know, there's going to
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: be a segment that this is the segment.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Is she the right person in this moment?
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a I'm a Kathy fan. I think I think
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: she's done. And she comes in from the business side
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: of things, and I the w n B A as
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: UH has grown a ton. She obviously does have some
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: problems with relationships with the players and and with the
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Gonna an idea here, Johnny, and you can say typical
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: like I'm just you know, literally Peanut Gallery. How about
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: Cheryl Miller's deputy commission I think that if you.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Got somebody else in there, like that.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Big name like that at who's a foundational you know,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: thought of as almost like a foundational Mount Rushmore women's player,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: huge respect across racial lines, across generational lines. Just seems
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: to me they need somebody that that can.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Because the player's view of Kathy Engelbert is not going
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: to change at all. But the idea that people boot
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Kathy and people boot David Sterne, they boot Adam Silver.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: They each one of those commissioners found somebody to become
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: the liaison to the play exactly. Yes, okay, and that's
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: what I'm wondering here.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, and I think everything we're
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: talking about is a w n B A needing to
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: become like a you know, a big girl league, you know,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: and it's not sort of like still drafting in the
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: wake of the of the NBA in a lot of ways.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: All Right, last topic, I want to hit with you
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: before before we land this plane. So the perception among
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: college football fanatics like myself are that and ESPN have
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: as much influence on the Big Ten and the SEC
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: and their decision making process. Uh as anyone. How exaggerated
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: of a claim is that. How fair of a claim
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: is at I don't.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Think it's a fair claim. However, However, Eric Shanks and
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: and Jimmy Pataro are two of the most powerful people
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: in college so so yeah, but I think so that's
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: I kind of agree and kind of kind kind of disagree.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: But everything that's everything that's running through DC right now
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: with the with the college sports, I don't see the
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: fingerprints of the of the networks on that. I do
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: think they're lobbying the SEC and the and Tony Titi
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: and Greg Zankee to you know, to do whatever they
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: not to do.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Have you been I have zero confidence this bill is
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: going to pass.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, people that I know and see that that do
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: this for a living, give it a single digit percent
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: of passing. I mean before before mid term elections. This
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: is your world more than mine, but before midterm elections, like,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: nobody's going to do anything that can help the Trump administration.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Right, And you're also not gonna in some ways, the
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: closer we get to the start of college football season,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: the harder it is to get I was.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Told maybe the lame Duck, but again the lane. I
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: know more about this in a place where you would
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: do this.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: If you're gonna mess with the Sports Broadcasting Act all
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: of that, that is a clash, a classic shove it
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: into December. But I just don't buy that anything can
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: be that Congress will will be able to have anything
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: to pass muster in the courts without collective bargaining. And
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: it feels inevitable. We got to have collective bargaining. The
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: question I have is is it by conference or is
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: it by division. Is it simply by the are you
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: or just any NCAA athlete can be Like that's the
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: question I have on collective bargaining is where do you
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: organize it? Is it organized on the division level? Is
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: it organized on the conference? When I'm even Division FBS, right,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: the Football Subdivision, the Division one side whatever? And but
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: I do know that you know Labor, those those that
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: are friendly with Labor, John, are the senators the most
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: adamant against this deal?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And a lot of a lot of the
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: schools in the Big ten in the SEC or against it.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: So I can't imagine the senators in those states will
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: be supporting it as well. But in terms of like
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: how to do it, like the key is unfortunately for
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: your acc like the Big ten in the SEC, like
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: like if if something comes that they don't like, like
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: I could see either of them just or both of
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: them together just you know, we'll the super league that
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: everybody's been talking about and and and come come away
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: from the n C Double A or the FBS or
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: or well everyone to call it.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, what's really frustrated me here is that it
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: is to me in ESPN and Fox's best interest not
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: to allow the media rights to be collectively bargained, because
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: if they're ever collectively bargained, they will get more money.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Look at the NFL, we are.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to push back on this though, because, like
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: I'll look at the NFL, we would like our first.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: The first thing we talked about is how all these
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: companies are now going to be cutting costs and cutting costs.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: And football is one of those. Look, I think that
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Colorado's I look at it this way, the Colorado States
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: the world, the Iowa States of the world. Pretty much
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: any any school with state in their names seems to
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: be screwed these days, right, you know, whether you were
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: like in the Big Twelve Pact whatever whatever we're calling
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: the pack, the back twelve is a is all the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: states I think state at the end of the year
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: name to get in.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: But stealing that line, I like that. It is.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: The fact is if if you, you know, made the
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: price to get your Alabama Georgia game, meant you had
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: to like share some revenue with the with Washington State,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: you know, because if you if you did this the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: way if the NFL did it by division, nobody would
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: air Jacksonville Jaguar Dance, Right, and so I do believe
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: this system punishes hurts college football's ability to expand beyond
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: being super popular in two big regions of the country.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: The uh I would argue, it's super popular across the country.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a number.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Still regardless, it's still popular, and they're and they're doing
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: their damn nest here to screw it up by trying
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: to put a velvet rope around the sport.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: So that's going to help, That's going to help Washington State.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Why would it help Alabama or why would it help
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: because they're they're already like the Big Ten right now?
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Because it's because guess what does it hurt the Dallas Cowboys?
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Now Dallas Cowboys could make more money if they could
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: just sell their own media rights. Why do they even
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: bother being in with the NFL.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: So if I'm if I'm say Ohio State, I'm already
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: subsidizing Rutgers in Maryland and Minnesota, and like like I
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: already have them within within you have to be.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Able to make a schedule, like you know, I mean,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: it is like I at some point I don't want
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: to see Alabama and Georgia three times a year, and
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: and and that is a That is the direction I
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: think Sanke wants to go is that he thinks that, look,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: let's go super League and we will have you know,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: and look, I see Miami will be in the Super League.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: So I'm not worried about Miami in this case because
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: the market matters too much. It has a good brand,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: that that's I mean the best part of college football
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: is that you can get one hundred thousand people in
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere in Center College, in State College,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: in Center Pennsvane and.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: I listen way too too much and way too frequently
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: to media executives, and they say, like, like, you know,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: if you add in like what they pay for is Michigan,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Ohio State, if you want to add in Washington State
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: and everything else, I know't necessarily going up. They're just
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: gonna shoot there. They're gonna end up dividing what we
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: what we already pay because like we were cutting costs.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: There just becomes a point though, then okay, you'll make
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: it where you don't even have enough teams to field,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: you know, And that's I don't know if we're going
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: to love that competitive in balance.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, I as a Maryland guy, I hate it. I
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: want to play West Virginia every year. I want to
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: play Virginia every year. I want to play Penn State
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: every I don't need to go play Washington up in
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: yeah and watch the team like travel like six hours
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: to go and you know, lose my thirty.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this. It's speaking of Maryland
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: and sort of the fact that there are two classes
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: in the Big Ten. Maybe there's three tiers in the
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Big Ten. I don't know where your head is at
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: on this, but I do wonder, which is why Michigan
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: and USC vetoed that private equity deal. But you know,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I am waiting for Alabama to say why why does
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Mississippi State get an equal share of the media revenue?
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: And I'm waiting for, you know, the same thing to
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: be said about Purdue in the Big Ten and frankly,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: maybe even Maryland or Rutgers. What happens when that begins?
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Is it going to be sort of this sort of
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: darwinistic you know, is that at the end of these.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Big you know, in baseball, we're talking about the salary cap,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: and you can't do a salary cap without the salary floor. Yeah,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know when this is going to happen, but
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: I've always suspected that in college conferences that you know,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: if you're not spending enough, if you know, to field
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: a competitive football team. And this is all about football,
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: because the new Americans of course great at basketball, come on, chuck,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: But if you're not spending enough to be a good
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: at football, teams are leaving conferences to go to other conferences.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Conferences want to have the authority to kick kick some
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: teams out if they're not coming. So is it is
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: it giving them less of the media revenue or is
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: it about kicking them out and adding in somebody else
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that'll be that will spend money and be more competitive.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Here's how Sache and and and these guys could win
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: me over.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Go to relegation would be by the way, relegation I
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: lived in London for about four years. Relegation is so great.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: It would be great in every sport. I want to
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: see relegation. I want to see it in baseball. I
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: want to see it totally fall as already full fledged socialism.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: So there's really no like the NFL is weirdly immune
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: from this but because the way they're system. But for
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: those with looser per strings, relegation would be nice.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: And like as two of the few Wizards fans in town,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: like relegated, we we would be like in the C Division.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: I think if there's relegation.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Let me let me get you out of here. On
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: that actually is it just merrod as the NBA does
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: not call. I've always thought Washington there are two basketball
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: two cities that should be the basketball capital outside of
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: New York and l Okay. New York and LA are
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: separate deals, and obviously Boston has this history. Atlanta and
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: DC are two NBA markets that we all this is,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: you know they you know, two of the wealthiest majority
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: African American counties in the country are in both of
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: those markets. This and yet the two franchises that have
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: been struggling in markets where if they ever got going,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: I think they would be juggernauts. It's sort of the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: what people talk about with Arizona State and college football. Boy,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: if they ever figure it out, watch out right, Like Phoenix,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: that's a that's a hot bed. What's your sense is
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: the NBA do they should they be helping those two
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: franchises be better at those because they should be bigger
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: and better markets than they are.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: All Right, you know what, I'm going to answer this
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: as a fan as opposed to like a sports business reporter.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: But the team in the NBA with the worst record
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: since two thousand, it's not the Sacramento Kings. It's the
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: Washington Wizards.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: It's lunched, by the way, is it like, do we
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: have like a ten game lead?
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I think Sacramento is second as
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: about four or five games. I think we're going to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: dominate them this year. Yeah, but I'm all in. Look,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: I grew up here. I still go to high school
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: games where you pay five dollars and you see, you know,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: college level players. You one of the.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Best high school recruiting hotbeds. And the I mean the
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: mid Atlantic Catholic schools geeze, I mean you know, and
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: then I have.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: A believable they haven't been great recently, but Maryland Georgetown
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: you have some like premier Division I college basketball programs,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: and like I'm old enough to remember seventy eight and
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: that they had parades and you know people were going
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: to annic over them. The John Wall years, we didn't
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: quite get make the Conference finals.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: That Game six, baby, But it was exciting. It was,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: I said, until the Nats won the World Series the
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: next year. It was the most exciting sporting event I
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: had ever attended in Washington.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that sad? Victory? Like not even a semi final, I.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: A quarter a conference final? I know, but it was.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: It was because you hadn't had it since the old
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: NFL days. And John Wall jumping up on the scorers
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: tables for the game. Yeah, that was great.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: We'll always have Game six. They'll talk about Cave seven
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Kelly olinok.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, didn't he like separate somebody's shoulder.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, of course, like the one time Boston
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: is vulnerable, but God blessed the Wizards. But I mean
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: it's it is one of those they feel like sleeping
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: giant markets to the NBA. And that's why I've always
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: been curious. Why, you know, if I were the NBA,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: i'd really be goose in those markets.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, sleeping giant like like Oklahoma City.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Who would have thought they were a sleeping giant market?
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: But you see that they sell out all the time
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: in Cleveland. I think if the NBA is uh is
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: big enough and powerful enough and has enough like star
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: power that and really any market, I think it'll be
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: a uh, you know, a hot market all.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Right, promote Where can people find your work?
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: Oh? Thank you? As you said at the beginning, I'm
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: the sports correspondent for Puck Puck Dot News, uh and
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: I am I gave up one newsletter comes out twice
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: a week, and then I do a podcast called The
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Varsity that comes out twice twice a week as well
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: coming uh interview podcasts a lot like this on on
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: social and Oran O U R A and D Underscore
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Puck and I'm trying to get a little bit more
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: active on X. I've gone away from it for a while,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: but I think people are still I'm getting a lot
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: of engagement on there, and people are still on it.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the algorithm sucks, but you know there's
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: still good engagement. Especially Oh, I just do that.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: I don't do for you. I just do people I follow.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, never do for you. Yeah for a mess anyway, John,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: good to see you, my friend.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much for the invite.