Latest / Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast / SBP 220: Interview - B2B Marketing is Playing the Game on Hard Mode. With Tyrona Heath.

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SBP 220: Interview - B2B Marketing is Playing the Game on Hard Mode. With Tyrona Heath. · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think the new question for us, as maybe there's multiple questions, is uh more so like now, what does effective B2B creativity look like?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast, a place for business leaders to get the best and most credible information on marketing, strategy, and innovation.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Your hosts, Mark Binkley and Vasily Storos, share their experiences as they gather insights from the world's leading experts.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on with the show.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: All right, we're back uh for a new interview with Tai He.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to the show.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: This is so great to have you back.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so great.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: So, for anyone listening that doesn't know, Ty is uh one of the co-founders of the B2B Institute.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: And the B2B Institute has been doing a ton of great work, but it has been going through changes and things.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so I wanted to give you a chance to kind of update us on how like your role fits in with LinkedIn and the things you're doing, that'd be great.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one thing you can count on is change, Ken.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I am still very connected to the B2B Institute.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh now my new title is Global Director of our Thought Leadership Go to Market.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: So whereas I was um within the B2B Institute focusing on the B2B Institute's go to market and market engagement, now I'm overseeing a larger scope of thought leadership go to market, still including the B2B Institute's work as well.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: Cool.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds like an incredible role, actually.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Having a good time.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_05: So uh first things first, congratulations uh on first Effie?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh oh, actually, that's a good question.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I think it is our first E.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's the first E.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_05: I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's correct.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: But yes.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh first effie uh for campaign called Only On LinkedIn.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, did you get to the absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't know if I didn't see the whole totality of the thing.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there are a couple different uh varieties of it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it was just like hu first of all, humor.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like um, there's one where like a a like create production forklift is driven to an office.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: A symbol of like, who are you really targeting?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Really, but I I think it's I mean, I think it's good craft execution, funny, memorable.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I also want to give shout out to the team um Browning, if you're listening, yeah, watching.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_05: Well, make them listen now.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: We'll send it to them.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're really proud of that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think if and if it's anything, if because if it's an effie, it's rooted in effectiveness.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_05: That must feel really good.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: It does, because you have to practice what you preach.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're if you are out talking about effectiveness in marketing, I mean you also have to be a student of it, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: As a never, it's a mountain with no top.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: So you're you're you're constantly um, you know, learning alongside everyone else and staying sharp.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and part of our role at LinkedIn is to also steward the conversation around effectiveness and marketing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: So that means we have to get into the ring as well on that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: Related to that, you've been here uh we're in filming can.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: Can is can or con?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: Do you go can be can.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we can.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um but you got here a week ahead of everybody.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: And so you for lots of good reasons.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you could just talk a little bit about that.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I also would love to hear about the kind of work that you're seeing and and you know, effectiveness or not, what what kinds of things you're looking for.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: So what a journey.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I found out in January uh of the I was selected to be the jury president for Creative B2B Lions, which to me just feels like such it's such an honor.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um I you know, it's hard to articulate when because I've been in the space with you, with you two and many of us that care very much about B2B marketing, BB effectiveness, shining a light on a space that deserves so much more and and helping to get get us there, get the attention with it being half the global economy.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: So um Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, we should be it's not insignificant.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um by the way.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, by the way, half the global economy.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when I got the email in January, I looked at my phone, put it down, picked it up, put it down, had had to walk away, and just it just took a second because I think it was such um an honor, but also I think it's a a a responsibility that um just meant so much to me.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I've been talking about B2B marketing for a long time now, uh from the B2B Institute.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it just it I felt seen and I was very excited to to take on.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: What did the what did it look like?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um over that time, the rest of your the jury is selected, you find out, you get really excited about all the sharp, smart people you're gonna be working with.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then you you start to get batches of of the creative.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: There's really it's really two parts.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so first there's a body of it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um this year in total, 355 entries documents.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and uh it's divided because you can can you imagine review, like it's a lot of creative, and you're still doing your day job job.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's still doing their job.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so everyone is uh scoring the work, and every every in every piece of work there's a case submitted.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: So people share their intent, you know, what was the insight, what was the strategy, what was the execution, what was the what was the outcome?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then there are various pieces within that case that you review, um, the case uh video itself, sure.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, different pieces of the creative, any of the research or other websites, you know, all the things that folks use to tell the story of the work.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I mean, I you you don't you cannot review you have to do it in pieces if you're exhausted.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: You want to be fair in your calibration.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then um B2B one of the observations, and we know this B2B is so diverse.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: There's so it's so diverse.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then and when we talk more about what I saw, I mean it's so interesting, the different types of products.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's so many different categories.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's everything from long-term brand building to craft in in B2B to integrate marketing.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you you are reviewing the cases against the context of the category that it was submitted in.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so after the first round, you progress and then you get to a shorter list.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and you know, it's interesting because you you, you know, set an agenda, but everyone is reviewing it alone within their own context of creativity.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then you get to the short list, and then you start to see where people's heads are.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_05: So did you did you get a sense that overall, and I'm and this may be an overgeneralization, but in B2B, an essence of like leveling up the creative on it, did you feel like, you know what, we're really showing up well in these uh in these cases now?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I I we've been on a journey.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, the reason the B2B Institute existed, I mean exists, not existed, we still hear, um, is to shine a light on B2B creativity, specifically the underinvestment in brand.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's a conversation we've been on for a while.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: I I would say absolutely yes, not just in the context of what I see here at CAN, but broadly the types of conversations we're having indicate to me that we are more clear, sophisticated, more brave in terms of the the creative that we're seeing.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: I do think now there is a cover as these things go, because I think there's conversations that are they are nascent, they grow there because there's tension, because people are like, there's a place where you are and a place where you want to be, that and that provides a level of tension.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: I see a new tension coming in, and I'll talk about that.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I would say the conversation um years ago was as basic as can be to be be creative.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Can we move away?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And this sounds very I mean, can you go?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_04: It's a hundred percent.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's why you like I love your your commercials so much.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Where you had the the the forklift guy coming in because you see that version of the advertising so much where it's show warehouse, show uh you know like shelves being stocked, that kind of stuff.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's the f guys in finance going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's the finance people going, well, I don't work in the warehouse.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like I love that idea behind it.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: And it is about, it was for a long time about being creative.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, so it's not the suits, the handshake, you know, situation.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so we've we we've we're not that we're not in that anymore.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think the new question for us, there's a maybe there's multiple questions, is uh more so like now what does effective B2B creativity look like?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And starting to get into, I would say, like more of the B2B buying mechanics, like it's a deeper level of expression.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it it it acknowledges and honors the fact that B2B buying is done in a committee, um, that there's long-term dis decisions being made, that there are distinctive brand assets that help build memory.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's challenging because, you know, of course, the the diversity of B2B, the size of the different companies, you're when you're looking at across, like, you know, you can't compare an apple to an orange.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: That being said, I think whether you're big or small or industrial or a fertilizer, beautiful.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: It they're understanding the buyer and understanding how decisions are made and what needs to happen to get to that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: And at the same time, holding like the core truth that it is a human making that decision.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, that there needs to be the bar of creative excellence is like the next it's like a just a deepening of the sophistication.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that that's where our conversations are going now.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about this concept of viability, which is really this idea of how confident and what can you do to make the committee feel confident.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's an acknowledgement of how that decision actually happens.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying that we don't know that there's a committee.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying, are we really paying attention to what needs to happen and marketing's role, like specifically in influencing that committee to your decision.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: I know we're going to talk more about viability in general later, too.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: But I V and I were just riffing this morning about like an insight.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: Pinterest had a great insight around what why they're doing some of the things we're doing.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_04: And then I think that you had also a great insight around viability.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you're it's I wanted to and seeing all the submissions that you've been seeing.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: And just talk about the insight part because I know there's the brief, and that's not not important.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's the execution, which is also not important.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_04: But somehow in the middle there's this like hinge thing that converts an idea into an action.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I I wonder if you could speak to some of the things you saw when you were doing that.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: I would say there were a couple themes that really resonated with the judges.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh one is like it seems basic, but it's not.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's not easy.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this idea of like one idea said with conviction, a story that really connects people could really connect to and they're with an emotional element.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I said, I don't know if that seems simple to you all, but it it's it's it's it's yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think in B2B, especially when you think about all the systems and all the folks that you have to sort of manage through to get a creative idea out, yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the sharpness or the signal of that story can be lost.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the judges found that some of the entries resonated the most.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: You could tell the story of that creative in like one sentence.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that that's not like it's not simplistic, it's simple and told like very powerfully.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So that was one of the themes.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: You have a did you want to say I was gonna go on it?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_05: No, if you want to keep going, keep going.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_05: I do have uh, and I wanted to quickly ask you as well, is like, what are some of the gaps that you've seen though, like over the all the other submissions?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_05: There's things that stand out.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_05: You're like, I thought we wouldn't have be seeing this still, but is there something that stood out to you from a gap perspective?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um So I would, I mean, I think I would go back to the what I said in the beginning, which is that we're so let me let me take step back because we're this is fifth year of the creative B2B lions.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's still a very nascent category.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the categories have been around for 20 years.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I want to be very thoughtful about how we s we speak to it.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because like it's not a sample of the body of all of the existing B2B creative.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, and I'll look at the camera or when I say this, or look at you from your eyes.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to see more submissions from B2B.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I want to be clear, like it's not a full representative sample of the body of work.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: There was some really excellent work there.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: It is a it's a sample of it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, to that degree, like you could say it's an indicator of where we are.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I think where we are is like that we have proven that B2B is creative and it's it's fun and it's humorous and it's serious and tells a story.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what I would like to see more of is what was missing for me was more of like the B2B decision making mechanics in it.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: So like um there was there was some of that.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think and the reason why I say that is because if we don't have that, then what's the difference between this category and other categories?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: So unl unless we are starting to show some more of that in the work, then it's a it's not distinctive enough as a B2B category.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And and and to be and I we all are responsible for that because we're all on this journey together.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um that being said, the work was powerful.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I I do want to continue to share like what resonated because I think it's it was an incredible step forward in terms and a good signal for folks to think about how they start to do that.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: So did that make sense?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, the one idea, the other thing we saw that resonated was it in many cases, like the the and top entries, they didn't just have a campaign, they created like an ecosystem.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: So they created like a world for people to actually experience.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: And when you think about how B2B buying is done, it there's this element of don't just tell me, you have to actually show me, and I have to feel safe to make the decision.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: So some of the worlds that were created by these brands enabled someone to really step into like and really experience how the product worked, and therefore the buyer could feel more confident.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: But beyond that, it wasn't just like a moment in time.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: It was like we're investing in this community or this ecosystem.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: We're actually stewarding this, we're taking responsibility for the health of this particular space because our customers, our buyers are in this space.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that was pretty remarkable to see.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so whether that was like investing in farmers or investing in pubs or investing in in creators or investing in small businesses, um you could see, you know, how these brands were taking additional stewardship responsibility that helped build a long-term relationship with the customer.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so that was that was certainly another one um that we saw.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I would say so show me versus how whether you can tell me ecosystem investment.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then underneath it, um there was the brands that did well.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And again, this is probably gonna feel very basic.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: I there's a element of emotion that that the buyer underneath was still human.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that may sound close to the one, the the one story, but it was part you could every in every single case, like it sparked something.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I know we talk about like the importance, like B2B buying is as much as people want to say.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's not rational.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's emotional.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: And um part of how we remember things is because of of what we feel.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So there was it was I mean, and but how do you do that in a product that some would argue is like a commodity product?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: These folks did it well.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's awesome.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to ask too about um I I we were walking through the Amazon port yesterday and uh or the day before anyway, and and it occurred to me, I'm like, holy shit, this is a giant example of a B2B brand coming to life.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and and and but I always thought about the Cannes Festival of Creativity as being a festival of creativity.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it all of a sudden occurred to me, I'm like, this might be the biggest B2B conference in the world.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then all of a sudden it was like, all right.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: And all of the uh pavilions that are being set up are an expression of the brand.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: That is something untouchable a lot of times because it's software, or it's because it's an idea, or it's because it's consulting, or it's you're a media buyer.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: Unlike, and but they've turned the brand into physical manifestations of it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so now they're in a way, different way, viable.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: And then I'm like, oh, I gotta ask Ty about this because like I would love to get your take on that, on anything related to the pavilions.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because at first I was just in shock by them.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: And now I'm like, oh my God, it's a viability thing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, first, I mean, people come here, most CMOs, a lot of CMOs are here, and increasingly B2B CMOs are coming.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, we hosted yesterday the B2B Leadership Summit at the Carlton.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, five years ago, I mean, yeah, five years ago, we kicked that off in the small room within the the JW Marriott.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's hosted in a ballroom.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so part of it is just the convening of folks and the very real things that happen when you're in conversation with people and you can really understand what their challenges are.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, like the space you create, the environment you create for conversation, um, I believe means a lot.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: And um the I'll never forget one of the B2B marketing leaders the first year he said to us, This is the first time I feel like I belong at Cannes as a B2B CMO.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's huge.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, at the time we were our tagline was like place the place to B2B.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we were like, Yes.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: In that sense, yes, we are created a space um for this conversation.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I think beyond that, it's like what's your the experience you're creating on the inside, like the memorable, the this the distinctive brand assets, you know, how people feel.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um so all of that done well uh provides just a a point that people can keep coming back to.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: If if you haven't checked out the Carlton, come come come on over because I mean year over year we've used the same, like the colors, the expression, it fe feels like how you get you kind of get the sense of how LinkedIn feels like you can through the experience.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure Amazon and others are thinking the same way about that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_05: I can't even count how many times we've had the privilege of actually hosting you.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_05: It's probably Is this four?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: This might be five.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_05: Three, four for sure.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_05: Three for sure.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: So anyways, so you uh I don't think we've ever really asked you this, though, is but how how how does it feel?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe that's one part of it, but like your research, probably the most cited research in B2B, how did that come to be really?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Origin story time.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_05: Let's go.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: And maybe we probably should have started with that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe we're doing this all wrong.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_05: We're doing it in reverse order.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_05: We're doing reverse order.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, we it was at LinkedIn.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: There were four of us in LinkedIn's agency business.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: And as in the agency business, as you're serving customers, um, many of them just want to understand where things are going so they can figure out where to invest.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the questions we got was tell us about the trends.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: How can we anticipate where things are going?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Can you help but can you help put something together to help us figure out how we should be investing?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we could have tackled that in a standard way of saying, you know, here's what we see.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh does Mary Meekers that still exist?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, but yeah, that yeah, but I mean, yeah, she's the queen of that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I if she's still, I mean, everyone rem uh do you know what I'm talking about.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone sort of she used to put together, or maybe she still puts together these trends.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like every year, everybody was looking for it for that.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, but we're not per.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: So what's different about what we can do that would provide value to people?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: And um rather than looking into what's changing, we said, actually, what's not changing that you can invest in for the long term because that's how you build for the future.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can bet on that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that was the start of B2B trends for the contrarian marketer, which was our our is our longest running franchise for the B2B Institute.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um, that bet um it paid off.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like customers were like, we love this.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we got to be funny, we got to bring in pop culture, we got to do it in a different way.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we got to explore these ideas that are little practiced, but then can deliver a lot of value for people.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that intelligent risk turned into like, wait, couldn't we do this more?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And like by the grace of um some great leaders, um we had some, we were given some space to make an intelligent risk and actually, I'm I'm may I'm really condensing this story.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like there was like turns and lots to navigate, as you can imagine.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but uh we're able to then start to build.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Four became six, became eight, became, you know, so we grew.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and through it, we continue to stay close to the core idea, which is that if you if we want to grow, if we like the if you want your your business to grow, people have to remember you.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: You have to, you know, the brand that's remembered is the brand that's bought.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we are what we can see in B2B is that we are underinvested.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: So how do we how do we show folks different angles of effectiveness?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: We started launching a research report every quarter.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that led to a body of work.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And as you as you say to me that it's one of the most cited play, I've I just feel incredibly proud uh because um thank you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think I you know, one of the things I um I think is is worth mentioning is just like the type of team environment um we have tried to maintain.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um John Lombardo, uh one of the co-founders now over at Evidenza.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um he talked about he he didn't coin this term, but this uh concept of senius.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: Have I ever said this to you?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: So there's um a musician named Brian Eno who coined this term called senius.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um I hope I'm getting this right.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the combination of like scene and genius.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's like this idea of like a collective society of thinkers that alone you wouldn't you maybe it would be tough to advance, but collectively you're able to 10x the sharpness of your thinking.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's like a tension of like an iron sharpening iron that you're able to, you know, just have better output.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like from the very beginning, just the conversations we had, like the freedom to say something and then to have someone say yes and or like maybe that's not, you know, that I think that's yeah, that was very helpful.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then also just the we didn't we in practicing what we preach, like how do we bring in pop culture?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: How do we bring in real life things that people can gravitate to and have some fun with it?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I would point to that.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I value that, I treasure it.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it's easy when you get into a business environment to to want to sort of wipe, you know, what do they say, wash those things out rub, like the edges off but I do think it it is that creative tension, but also like you have to have like a safe place as a team, a safe culture as a team to be able to say, here's my idea, baby, and like it might suck, or but it doesn't suck.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, how do you make it better?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where that's what we tried to do.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, of course, I'd be would be remiss to mention that we didn't have some excellent partners along the way, Ehrenberg Bass Institute, System One, and they a bunch of of folks that um, you know, and and leaders, um, which we've less been at Peterfield.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: I can like Love Mark, I think like a bunch of folks that that have played a huge role as well.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, because we're all in the same ecosystem, we all care.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Just thinking about um so we originally originally we started the conversation, I would say, in the now, and then we just did a little trip-down memory.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: Retro like So have a bit of whiplash.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we're just talking about now.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like thinking about not just the the future of the B2B Institute, but but like when you're making these bets in the contrary like as a contrarian uh point of view, and you've got I think in some ways that the brilliance of it is that it doesn't change.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: But then you're in the realities, there's the tariffs, there's wars, there's all-and I don't mean to be political, but there's just major things that affect the economy and largely then the businesses that are working in it.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so there's a external reality of like we're all trying to like get through it and figure it all out.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: And just thinking about where the B2B goes, do you how do you think about navigating through some of those things in terms of even like just the your quarter, you're talking about quarterly um reports?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so like do you map those out against like the current thing or because that's gonna change?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Do you just focus on and always focus on the the things that don't?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the interesting thing about thought leadership.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because you are out front.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: You are helping to chart a path, which means that you have to think about where things are going and try to pave the way.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: In some ways, you are also telling, uh thinking about what the story you want the story to be.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a recognition of the agency that folks have.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a that's actually a responsibility.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and it's looking at the signals now where they could lead, but also saying what is the what would be the best investment in the health of the category where we need to go.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not just like, you know, we think it's going here.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's like what is missing that would make a difference for B2B, right?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's re some of these research reports that we work on, they are done like a year ahead of time.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you have a hypothesis.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, here's here's the question we're out to answer.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't always go the way you think it's gonna go.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: You ask the question, you get the data, yeah, and then you make sense of that, and you're like, whoa.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I think that's the interesting thing.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like you place a you place a bet, the question that's aligned with where you think things are going, and then you tell the story, and but it's the story could pivot.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the thing like people think, like you start no, it's like twists and turns, and then sometimes there are delays because it's not what you thought it was going to be, but the goal is to tell the truth about what's going on against like where we are.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um interesting like needle.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is, it is.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a bit of a tight, it's a bit of a tight rope.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and I I think the thing that I like whenever we talk about like all the swirly, uncertain stuff that's going on in the world, I keep coming back to the things that are not changing.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Which is like one of the fundamental things we started with, which is like, what is what does it mean to be human?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: How do human beings make decisions?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: What are the you know, and if you keep coming back to those things, like even as things are going all you know wild, you recognize like this is a truth that I can continue to bet on.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's like that infight you were talking about before.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you were you were you're talking about we kind of loosely talked about this kind of like where B2B is headed uh in in terms of you know, you you you were a juror, you saw submissions, you saw how the creative sorry, a lot of B2B comes in now using emotion, leaning into that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_05: All of that is being elevated.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think there's a larger recognition around like, you know, the the buying committees, uh AIs come in to kind of like I I want I don't want to turn this.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, no.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's less about that.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to talk about AI.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: What I want what I'm trying to say is though, like all of these things together, it feels like there's some momentum that's being uh created or generated as a part of you know um about uh like B2B creative, either getting the recognition it deserves or or maybe it's you know it's always always kind of been there.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_05: No, not there.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: No, yes, yes, yeah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's always been I look, I was talking to someone yesterday, they're like, I'm tired of people saying B2B is not boring.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, it doesn't like past that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's all we've that's the creative possibility has always been there.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's always been there.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's always been there.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: So and I'm I'm gonna assume you you're probably like us, believe like, you know, we're the the industry itself is going in a better it's going in a better direction than it's ever been.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: And what are the things that you're gonna be looking to take part in during your time here at Cannes that you can take back then to the team and really kind of be excited about?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, one of the things was just being in the room with with so many sharp folks.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so CCOs and like leads and platform leaders, and it's just it was um to get inside the thinking and the heads of these leaders.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the things that um I will definitely take back is just like a renewed attention to craft and um especially the story.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think actually B2B is playing the game on hard, which is hard.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like maybe that's part of the reason I like we like it so much.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like the game setting is definitely hard.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's uh like I'm I don't know, you can tell I gained a little bit.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like in my life.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: So did you ever use gone mode?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Did you ever use time?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: I you definitely put it on I mean let's look.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Look, you have to like have a lot of pain.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: It teaches you patience, you know.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: You have to, you're like, I will eventually beat this boss.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: But um we are playing the game on, we are playing the game on hard because there's it's not just like you can here's a story and I can go tell that story.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: There are like multiple layers in like the B2B system.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's like, especially enterprise B2B, there's like a sometimes like a massive product set.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: There are like multiple decision makers, there's the agency, which if you don't trust, have a trusted relationship there.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there are a lot of obstacles to navigate.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what can happen is like you may start with like an insight and a really good story, but then someone comes along and says, add this thing a bitle, and you definitely make sure you say that, and definitely make sure you didn't do this and do this and do this, or oh no, no, no, no, no.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I'm concerned, you know, maybe take that out.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then you can lose some of the energy, some of the signal.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: And um so I think from that standpoint, B2B marketing actually has a harder path to navigate.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so, I mean, part of the conversation in the room was like, how do we, how do we help B2B navigate that more?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's obvious stories to be told, creativity, but there's also a lot of players that are like, hey, hey, put the thingamajisle in there, do this, do this, do this, check these things.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, so I think um that's like the great great submissions, really proud of the Grand Prix, really proud of like the goal, all you know, all the entries, shortlisted entries, like really, really, really deserving of recognition.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the investment of the health is like, you know, in part, like now, how do like how do we tell the great stories, but within like the by-group decision, the long term, the distinctive brand assets, what there's all there's because there's a lot that goes into building confidence.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_04: There's about eight other questions I want to ask you.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sitting here going, I don't know if we have enough time to get them all in.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Has time flown like that?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um okay, one question.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh um you were just talking about the the hard mode, and and then my head went into like Google and Facebook, and and not to throw shade, like they're they came in at a time when um everybody was looking for a quick win, like to support quick wins and digital could do it, and all those kinds of things.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then it occurred to me that LinkedIn is also a digital channel, yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it's also an advertising platform.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I know we we talked to you because of all kinds of reasons, good reasons, but then I'm like, oh yeah, and they're an ad platform too.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: But the the game that you're playing is not the same game.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it and it is a harder game, I think.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: And it's really interesting, it like in this little bolt of lightning, it's it is a a reality of the market that B2B is in.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_04: That you have to play long.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: And all the things you're doing, and um it's just now occurring to me, is about trying to understand.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, duh.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: How to play long.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's right.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's such a great playbook, what you're building out.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that I think it's a recognition of like it's not just memory, it's authority that needs to be built.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: And credibility such that someone can say, okay, I can, you know, I'm mitigating risk, I'm showing proof, you know, I am deal helping someone deal with the internal politics of whatever it is they have to navigate.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that's interesting though.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a different, it's a different game.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I'm saying, you know, the we need to have like really get that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just another category.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's a category with these things that are that deserve attention.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_05: Would you say this is not it's kind of a question, but it's kind of funny, I think.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_05: At least it's funny in my head.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_05: You talked about being on hard mode.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_05: Is the LinkedIn B2B Institute and everything that you're working on actually then becoming God mode for everybody that looks at the research and gives them a way to navigate all of this that they're dealing with?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I hope.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: I hope it's a cheat code.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cheat code.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: I gamed a little bit too.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: Gamers that listen to this area.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Probably.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's like very pervasive.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_05: You know, but you start the game.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: You put in the triangle square.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: You get some extra vibes.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you that's that's what we want to be for.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: There it is.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, here is a map.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or like games, you need a m- you get a map that helps you get to like, oh, okay.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like, the B2B cheat code is right here.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: The mental models, like we try to give that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_05: There you go.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Play the game and win more often.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, not die as much.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_05: No, no.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_05: But that's why there's God mode.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_05: So you can die and you come back.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_05: It's no big deal.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_05: Ty, how can people find out more about the great work that you continue to do and basically what the team's working on?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know the answer to that.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Substack.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Substack on Science.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: I know you are.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Substack.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but you can find me on LinkedIn.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.org as well.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much for coming.