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The Legacy of Hugh Hefner, Part 2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: One Never Told You production If I Heart Radio. And
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: welcome to the second part of the two parter accidental
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: two parter that we did with bridget Todd, great friend
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: of the show about Hugh Hefner and legacy of Hugh Hefner.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: We just got going and there was a lot to say,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: so much to say. Yeah, so we had to split
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: it up. Go listen to part one if you haven't already, it.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: May be confusing. If you don't, it might be.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: It might be, but then come back.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: And just kind of like the last one. If you did,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: listen to the part one of this accidental Part two
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: that I Am So Infamous for of the Legacy of
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Hugh Heffner. Content warning for all the things we are
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: going to talk about, examples of sexual assault, rape, drug abuse, soliciting, trafficking, death, murder,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: like all the things. It is all up in here.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: It is as gruesome as you think. It is pretty horrifying.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Not to discourage you, but to let you know what's
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: coming up. Of course, we're going to have a pretty
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: detailed conversation about some of the implications this does leave behind.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: So in the last episode, we were deep into conversation
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: about Hugh Hefner and Playboy and the exploitation and trafficking
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and abuse that was happening there, and how controlling so
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: much of it was, and how the pr machine really
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: did a great job at hiding it or repackaging it
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: making it look really nice. So we are going to
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: jump in right where we lie off and dig into
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: that a little bit more.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: Some of the most disturbing stuff that I recall from
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: these memoirs is what it was like to be sexual
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: with you, and what it was like as one of
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: the one of his girlfriends in the house. The ways
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: in which you had to mold yourself to this very
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: specific version of a woman's sexuality that is being dictated
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: by Hub and Hugh alone is wild. Probably the most
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: shocking thing that haunts me to this day. It haunts
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: me is a revelation that during these orgies, rather than
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: using lubricant like a water based lube that you bite
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: from the store, a ky jelly, Hugh Hefner insisted on
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: using baby oil. If you have a vagina, you know
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: that scented baby oil in your vagina is the most
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: horrific thing I can imagine these women would be getting
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: regular vational infections while having to have sex with you,
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Hefner Knightley. They pleaded with the woman who was sort
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: of like in charge of doing his bidding, like.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: Please let us just use regular lube.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: We're all getting vational infections and we're all having sex constantly,
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: And they would sometimes try to switch it out, like
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: they would put lube in the baby oil bottle.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: But somehow Hugh always knew.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: And That's what I'm saying, Like, you are so committed
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: to this very specific visualization of what this sexual fantasy
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: is like that you don't even care that it is
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: preventing you from being able to like actually have sex
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: because the.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: Women will always have vational infections.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Crystalline here her memoir talks about how it got so
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: bad that she would have anal sex with him when
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: it was her night to have sex with him, because
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: it was like, well, that was like a million times
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: better than just getting a bad vational infection from this
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: baby oil in my vagina.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, like that just it just sounds like again,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: this is just control, Like this has nothing to do
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: with actual pleasure or any of that for him, Like
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: this doesn't really change much from like a good lubricut
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: versus baby oil. That this is just about oh I
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: want this because I said this, that they can change
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: this this and again that's a form of control and
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: abuse that happens so often within relationships, which, by the way,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: like even for interviews, and I think these things were
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: coming out a lot before these documentaries and memoirs that
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: people just randomly, Yo, we got a thousand dollars a week.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: We had to go ask for it, and we knew
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: we asked for it. You know, it meant that he's
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: gonna give us a chart and rating, and that we
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't leave. We left, we had to have people with us, obviously,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: but he gave us everything. He gave me a car,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: he gave me a dog, and we had a salon
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: for a little while until we abused it, I guess.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: But people were normally this is like, yeah, okay, that's
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: what you agreed with, right mention, and not anybody saying yo,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: that's not cult like yo, that's that's like a literal ring,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Like what is happening? This is the most controlling tactic
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: that we if we saw that in our friends in relationship,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: that we'd be like, you're going to get murdered, you
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: need to leave.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: That's one of the things I keep getting hung up
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: on about this is that we as a society have
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: co signed on this is okay by being like, oh,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: well he did these other things where it's you know,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: women so long have been valued on their body, their desirability,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff. Here's where you can make money.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: But let's like paint it real nice. And one of
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the things that I think about a lot is you
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: started to use feminism. You have never started to use
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: feminism to be like, see, it's all good for the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: women here because of feminism. This was happening at the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: time the sexual Revolution, the second way feminism of the seventies,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: and there was this backlash against it. But then it's
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: almost horrifyingly amazing how well the pr of Playboy did
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: at turning it into well, we've seen the sexual revolution.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: You ladies just want to have sex right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: Here you go.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Now, now we get like a feminist stamp of approval,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: which is wild.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: You ladies want reoccurring vational infections, right.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, they really wanted to tell to pretend like
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: as long as you're not in the kitchen and raising children.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: This is feminists, which is kind of that big conversation
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: with what was kind of wrong with feminism at that
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: point in time and being like, this is not what
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: this is not all feminism. This is not what we
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: were saying when we said equality not to be like
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: just because you give us at you pay us to
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: not have children and to not have for some of
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: us and not being in the house and have a
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: job that is atypical and I'm quoting jobs or doing
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: things where I can show something proudly where my you know,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: other people would be shamed of. This is not necessarily
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: what we're talking about in feminism. There was an article
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: with New Statesmen talking about his co opting of feminism
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: for his empire, and it says if you ask Hugh Hefner,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: he'll tell you he was a feminist before there was
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: such a thing as feminism. And again, it's just one
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: of those narcissistic things where like I did this before you, Hey, women,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I saved you. You're welcome.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: And also is the saying he was doing this before
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: women like Mary wolste Greg Like, what.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Does that even mean?
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: That's right, just not true. There's no way, that's true.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: You didn't start the feminist movement, mat.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: My guy, like you just didn't.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: It's not your thing. This is not you and continue.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: This week, Cosmopolitan republished He's love letter to himself, arguing
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: that feminism was his own worst enemy. So we're guessing
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: this is around the time they're like, yo, this is
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: not feminism, sh being the true source of women's liberation. Everybody,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: he writes, if they got their head on straight, wants
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: to be a sexual object. This piece was originally published
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven, but have been making the
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: same argument since the nineteen sixties, and in fact, the
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: magazine did promote their own version of women's lib back then,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: supporting reproductive rights and of course, sexual liberation. The Playboy
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Foundation even donated generously to abortion rights organizations and the
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: American Civil Liberties Union ACLU to fund daycare centers. Longtime
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: senior editor NTT. Lehrman said the magazine quote came out
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: on these important feminist issues before feminists had figured out
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: what their issues were.
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: Wow, just to know, I do have to say we
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: talked about Playboy in our book, because yes, they in
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: part helped with the putting together of rape kits, which
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: is something that we must live with.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about I don't know
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: what to do about it.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, but in that same article they do kind of
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: call it out and say claiming to support women's rights
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: while simultaneously insisting on our objectification was unconvincing for the
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: second wave. But the times they are changing, and the
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: kind of feminism presented to today's liberal doesn't seem so
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: far off from the magazine's ethos. In an era that
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: ascribes empowerment to everything from breast implants to new selfies
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: to pole dancing classes, and when the hardest conversation of
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: twenty fourteen was Beyonce's feminism, it only makes sense that
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: the magazine, when it doubled down on their efforts to
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: capitalize on the movement. Playboy's existence relies on the notion
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: of women as sexually liberated proponents of free love. As such,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: the introduction of the birth control pill in America was
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: deeply connected to not only women's liberation, but to the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: sexual revolution. Women can now have sex like men, no
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: streams attached. Playboy was crafting a version of women's lib
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: that was, in the end still male centered. Women were
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: permitted to be sexual, but within the confines of a
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: one dimensional view of sexuality that had to in the
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: end satisfy men. So there's so many points to this,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: because any you and I have talked about this repeatedly,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: how to the point that Bumble fumbled their thing. We
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: just recently had an episode about how, say, chassidy is
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: not going to be the thing, y'all, you're not going
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: to stick to that come on type of thing to
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: come after women who have decided to stop having sex,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: or about celibacy or whatever what, or women who are
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: just a sexual that had come into a criticism of
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: that that that being a sexual or vowing celibacy is
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: also like almost anti feminists in some certain realms, like
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: now that we have our sexual liberation to go backwards
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: quote unquote and not having sex, you know that that
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: extreme version which is like no, but we're talking about
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: choice here, which is so often gets left off the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: table in conversation and in this level of like, yes,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: they played so hard upon it that they shame you
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: for not being okay with it.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's the damned if you do, damned if you don't.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: If you're a woman, if you have sex, you're a slut.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: We're not going to believe you if you say you've
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: come forward about Hugh Hefner. If you don't have sex,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: then you're approved, and Hugh Heffner wouldn't want you run away.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: And they say that like it's a threat. But unfortunate,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, we are taught like sexual desirability is
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: a thing and you should want it. Not you should want,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: but you feel like you should. And I've spoken about
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that my experience with that too. But it is so
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: bizarre to me that when we're having this conversation, it's
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: just like we're trying to make ourselves feel better about
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: rape culture. That's just what it feels like to me,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: is that we're trying to make ourselves feel better about
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the fact that women are still mostly judged on their
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: body and their use and their desirability towards men. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner is a good guy, so you should go
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: with it. And here's all these examples examples as to
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: why we can feel okay about it.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: That's just.
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: That's the vibe, right, I think the lean in well
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: that again, I have to say this again about corporations anyway,
• 12:32
  Speaker 6: in general, the way they co op things for their
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: own for capitalism, like in general, whether it's the queer
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: movement LGBTQ month or whether it's like Black History Month,
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: whether it's Women's Month, they do things for name only
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: in order to gain more power. And this sexual liberation
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: was a reach for power.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: And it's no coincidence that they are the ones financially benefiting.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: So it's like convincing us to be.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Super cool with our own exploitation and being a cog
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: in this machine of rape culture. They cash a check
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: from that, right, and so it's like it's it's just
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: it's just exploitation the whole way.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: Down, right.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I did find the interesting conversation about Gloria Stein I'm
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: going undercover as a bunny, and she talked about her
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: experience and how immediately from jump she was like, yeah,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: this is not good. Yeah, the costumes are bad. I'm
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: goned at the first thing I was told. I was like,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: the first thing someone yelled at me as I walked
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: into the club was bunny, Bunny, come here by men,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: of course. And then one of the things that they touted,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: and they didn't really talk much about this part in
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: the documentary. I don't know if you had any in
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: their memoirs that yes, they actually got pretty good pay.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: So I think they were paid the equivalent like two
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: to three hundred dollars a week, which would equal out
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: to be about seventeen hundred to twenty six hundred dollars
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I guess today in its value. I don't know if
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that's true or not, but the amount that they had
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to pay back to the club for the upkeep actually
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: took home a lot less. They had to pay for
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: their own shoes, they had to pay for any mending
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of their costume. They had to pay for like any appearance,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: upkeep the nylons, their stocking or pante hose, whatever, tights. Now,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know, He's been called so many things, their makeup,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: all of the different things they're like standards or beauty.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So whether that's getting facials or nails done, or hair
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: done or whatever, they had to upkeep because if they
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: did not upkeep those things they were done, they would
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: be demoted and moved around. They did talk about the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: fact that the costumes, if you did not fit into
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: their costumes, you had emotions and you were suspended until
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: you could. So at one point a woman came in.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: She talked about the fact that they're like, you look cute,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: but you need to lose ten pounds by the next
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Monday to get into the costum or you're not going
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: to be here.
• 15:07
  Speaker 7: It's like, I mean, if it was like on Monday,
• 15:17
  Speaker 7: next Monday, I have to assume a seven days.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Right, right, it was a four time obviously, like no
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: matter what. The longest she had was like ten days, right,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Like it was absurd, and like they made sure that
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: that was the point. They were talking about how their
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: shoes were so tight or small that they would take
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: their feet, blit bloody feet, put it into their toilet
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: and flush the commode repeatedly to get cold water and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: get the swelling down so that they could spit back
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: into their shoes and go back out. They had the
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: bunny bend. Did you read about this at all? Which
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: where because the corset it's so tight, but you had
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: to One of them showed an example where they're facing
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: away from the table. They're slightly cocked to the side,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: but they have to dip lean back a little bit
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: with the drink in their hand all the way down
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: and then put it on the table as if you
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: like a contortionist, but never facing the table. It was
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the most absurd thing that I ever heard in my life.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, that looks so like and she was
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: an older woman showing and I was like, nah, I
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: can't do that today.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: That's bizarre.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something that really strikes me about the memoirs
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: of some of the more recent women from Girls next Door,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: How just how strange some of that stuff is, Like
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: being in this orbit, some of the expectations are just
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: bizarre and are cane and specific and just yeah, just
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: like a really weird, difficult thing to have to maintain
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: and have your financial livelihood kind of depend on.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Right, But not only that, this level of like so
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: they touted again that level of like they protect the women.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So you know, we saw in the article how they
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: would kick people out if they did these things, if
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: they asked for these things, if they touched the bunnies.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Apparently that was the like they talked about that rule,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: do not touch the bunnies. If you touch the bunnies,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: you're kicked out. You cannot have and the only way
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: you can get into the club was like having a
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: key or a key ring specifically, and like that's how
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: you get in and you get the drinks and all
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: these great things. Is a big show. You're someone someone
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: if you got these things. But if you touch the bunnies,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: you're out. But two, there was a twofold where yeah,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: that happened in the club. The minute they were outside
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: of that club, it was done. They had no security,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: they had no one follow out. Even if the women
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: reported that they were being stalked by someone or that
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: if someone was coming after them, they did not care.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: They were like, eh, literally someone who was a bunny
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: mother who essentially like was the boss or manager, but
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: you know, you have to give a cute name. Bunny mother,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: of course, was how I was told by several women
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: that they were being follo, They're being stalked. They were
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: afraid for their lives, They're afraid that they're going to
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: get kidnap, they're afraid they're going to be assaulted. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: when she would tell the security team, they're like, Eh,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: it's not our problem. Outside of the club. They're big girls.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: They can handle themselves. Literally being told that, she's like what.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: So they would try to write these incidents about what
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: was happening. Some of the big some of the people
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in documentary. But on top of that, there was another
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: level of being in the club that was a card,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: so think like gold card or like one of those
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: metal cards, in which they were given unlimited access and
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: they could do whatever they wanted, and they did. Now
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: they would never co worce the women necessarily, but they
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: were encouraged to flirt a lot and take it as
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: you will type of conversations. And when incidents would happen,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: instead of helping, giving therapy, protecting, they women were fired
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: and they had what they called the cleanup crew to
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: come and fix the situation. So whether it's to make
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: sure to hush people up or to put it under
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: the radar, because they did not need negative things about
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: their clubs or any of the people. They talked about.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: One of the hosts of the Soul Chain taking a woman,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: kidnapping her and logging her up in his room, and
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: the only way she was able to escape was she
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: had called them and she was able to get out
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and say, hurt another person. But he was still allowed
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: at the club. He was never revoked because he was
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: so high in the level.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's that's just such a level of disposable, right,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: how we see women as disposable. Once you age out,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: once you can't do this move, once you're not desirable anymore.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: You're just not important to us other than the money
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that you can make us.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Right, if you've been used up and you're going to
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: cause us trouble. And this is again like I want
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: to vomit just saying those words, but those are the
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: terms that go through. And if you're going to cause
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: us money, make us, give us a loss of money,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: you're nothing to us. Goodbye.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: When Kendra on Girls next Door asked to be paid
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: to be on the show, they were like, we're not
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: going to pay you. You're all replaceable and disposable, and
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: that like that idea of replaceability that there's you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: a bunch of women who would kill to be here
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: that'll take your spot like that if you can plain
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: or cause us trouble. How much that was used to
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: keep the whole thing going, Like, it's so interesting hearing Sam,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: hearing you describe what it was like in these clubs
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: in the sixties and seventies and how that same thing
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: was being used in the nineties and two thousands to
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: continue to silence and keep these women doing what they
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: wanted right.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were some other stories that I was just like,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: my god, like some of the things where like people
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: were actually arrested, but again the women were just fired
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: and everybody was told to be quiet, and no one
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: knew about it. Even the people who worked in the
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: same clubs and like would hear like legends of things
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: and be like what I didn't know this, what is happening?
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: And then the other to this is to me? And
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I find this interesting because I'm sure you caught up
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: on this in the memoirs. If whatever reason Hugh Hefner
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: lost control of a person for the next round of relationships,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: he upped the ante, like he would do ten times more.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Because I remember the Shannon Twins talking about the fact
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: that she was like, okay, when we came in, Holly
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: would talk about her her experiences, and then when the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Shannon Twins come in would be like, oh, yeah, we
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: couldn't do that anymore. They wouldn't let us have that
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: because it caused for Holly to be able to leave
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: or Kendrick to be able to leave, and so Hugh
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Hefner would twist that up so that would be harder
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: and harder for people to leave.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the way like yes, and the way that
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: surveillance was used, like there's only one phone and it's
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: in the hall, so you can't have any kind of
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: private conversations. It's like, again, these are not things that
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: are happening in a living situation where people are there
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: completely willingly.
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, they're just not right, Like, nobody.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: Surveils my phone calls other than the US government, I
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: bet certainly not the person that I meant to be
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: in our relationship with.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: That is not normal. And we were like all watching
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: that on TV.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Like oh, this is great, like right, yeah, totally wholesome,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: normal stuff.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: It was honestly baffling to go through in these conversations
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: because obviously I'm bouncing back and forth to his empire
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: what his empire was doing, which he still like had
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: heavy hand in. So when it came to like the
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Playboy clubs, yes, he had underlings who did what he
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: wanted without him necessarily coming through and being in the front,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you know, the face of it. But then we have
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: what's happening with a mansion, with things like girls next
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: door and the girlfriends and the wives, and the situations
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: where he is catering or he is creating this chaos
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: and is the face of this chaos like that, that's
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: like obviously separate, but both, but the entity of what
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the level of powers because it's almost more ominous to
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: me to hear these stories about the Playboy clubs and
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: things that would happen and they literally like organized crime
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: level of covering things up in order to protect this man.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: And that was a conversation that was said almost even
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: those who were advocating for Hugh Hefner specifically was like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: what he didn't know, but they were protecting him like
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: this level.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: But that's my thing.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: It's like, I understand that what's happening in the clubs
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner, there's an understanding that he is not personally
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: dictating those policies and all of that happening. But it's
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: it's obviously related when you look at how similar it
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: is to how the spheres that he did have a
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: lot of control over his own domestic sphere, and people
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: who would say like, oh, well, he didn't know that
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: was happening, then what is your explanation for his own
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: home life that he maintained and then hired people to
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: make sure that it was that it was run to
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: his liking, and I I just can't see those two
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: things as unrelated, Like, oh, there happened to have been coercive, exploitative,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: possibly illegal behavior happening here, but.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: He had nothing to do with that.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: However, here's some similar behavior happening decades later in his
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: domestic sphere that was very similar. But obviously there's a correlate,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: like a relationship between those twoth spheres.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: You would think it'd be easily like, oh, yeah, Dutt,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: connect the dots, but the people who want to advocate
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: for him so fiercely refuse to look at those connections.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: that's not him. They're just trying to pin in that
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: way is to be a bad guy.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: Oh I get this so deeply.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: I honestly like this might sound weird, but I feel
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: for those people who really feel they need to uphold
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: and defend Hugh Hefner. You know, I'm having the same
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: conversation right now with a lot of people that I
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: love and respect around Diddy. I think there is something
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: in our culture where if you have to actually look
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: at what this person did and represented and the and
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: what you you were complicit in or thought was cool
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: or whatever. The work is so hard and the revelation
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: is so deep that it is that it almost forces you.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: To need jerk be like he would never do that,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: and if.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: You did do it, they wanted or something like that,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Like I you know, I think back to this conversation
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: that one of the Cosby survivors said a black woman
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: and she was one of the first black women Cosby
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: survivors to come out on the record and say what
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: he did to her. And she was having a conversation
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: with a black man, and you know, this man came
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: to her and was like, sister, is it true?
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: And she was like, I'm so sorry, but.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, it is like how cruelly we were lied to,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: how cruelly we were taken advantage of.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: And I get it.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: I get that peeling back the layers of lies that
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: you believed that you that you felt empowered by is
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: difficult work. And I can understand why in the face
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: of that work you would be like, no, I can't
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: face that.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: That's too hard.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: I must defend this institution because it would mean looking
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: at all the times that like people that you would
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: admired or respected played into this all the times that
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: you yourself played into it. Like, I really do have empathy
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: for how hard it is to look at these situations
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and see them for what they are, right, But like,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: that's the trip of living in our societies. You have
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: to be willing to come to the table and see
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: things clearly and have those tough conversations to do that work.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, because I did not realize,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: and I don't know why I did not make this
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: connection that several of the cases and the allegations toward
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Bill Cosby originated from the table mansion that I was like,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: oh oh oh, because we had one survivor actually speak
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: about it and went into really sad detail about what
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: was what happened specifically with him in this level. There's
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: this other part of this conversation, which is again a
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: whole other episode in that yes, the likelihood of several
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: of the people that they talked about and accused out
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: loud named within the playboad mansion were black men. Again,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: we had the soul train I cannot remember his name
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: host at that point.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: Don Cornelius.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: He was the main Okay, yeah, he was the main
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I think host and then the football player, and then
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Bill Cosby, and I think the other one was finally
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: rowand Polanski and yeah right, which is like he's still
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: technically isn't he still out in about he ran away?
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's in.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: Europe High Award and like, literally, don't even get me
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: started about that mother, because literally, celebrities to this day
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: and twenty twenty four will go out of their way
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: to be like, well, you know his family was killed
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: in the Holocaust and did he really do anything wrong?
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Like like I am so sorry. People that you like
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: in respect are on the record like woop be Goldberg
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: was like, well it wasn't a rape rape Like to
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: this day, celebrities go out of their way to defend him,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: and it makes me want to scream. Yeah, in twenty
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: twenty four, keep it to yourself, stop talking, keep it
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: to yourself.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Stop talking. Why are you why you well keep talking?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I can to avoid each other. Listen now, I haven't
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: know never to talk to you or look at you
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: ever again.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: And you're not having my kids around your end. Yeah,
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: I know every time.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I see you, I know, oh I know who you are.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I see who you are. But yeah, no, like this
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: is that bigger conversation is like they are more likely
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to separate. And again, because I didn't quite grasp it,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, it's kind of a prime example. If
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner was kept protected instead of being held liable
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: for what was happening at the parties that he held, for
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: the girls that he is supposed to be responsible for,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: and I say responsible for, there are his employees, people
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: he's supposed to be protecting, like all of these things,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: and he came out with nothing, Like I really did
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: not figure this stuff out with that case of like,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: oh my god, all these things are awful. This is
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: all these things. Even with the mention of it, I
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: was like, he he came out unscathed.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I want to say something out Cosby because.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: And I don't. I don't want to derail the conversation.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: But Cosby was a known entity to the Playboy Club
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: and Playboy parties, right. This was when he was making
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: family friendly comedy and like becoming sort of America's dad.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: Like when I think about the way that Girls next.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Door was sort of sold A's wholesome and kind of
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: family friendly, squeaky clean, I keep thinking about Cosby, who
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: his public image was squeaky clean, wholesome America's dad blah
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: blah blah while he was going to these Playboy parties.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Like how much it benefits men and allows for men
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: to build up these these ideas about them in public
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: that don't square with who they actually are in reality,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: and it kind of allows them to test sort of
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: do this in plain sight, right, like, Oh, I'm a
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: wholesome guy, but I'm going to the Playboy Club every
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: night and like sexually assaulting people regularly.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: You know what it's like. And I guess this whole
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: conversation just goes back to the way that like pr
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: and media and.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Doing good things, sometimes all is goes back to creating
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: this dynamic where men get to do whatever they want
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: and people.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Don't ask about it.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Like there's like the dynamic where it's like, well, don't
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: tarnish his legacy. It's like, well, I'm not the one
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: who told him show about the Playboy Club. That was him,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: So why can't that be part of his legacy?
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Like that is his legacy? Like as right point, if
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: he did it, if he's known for it, if he
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: has been doing things that have like literally destroyed other lives,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that's his legacy. That is a part of his legacy,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: and it should be it should be worn as proudly
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: as he did it, Like that's yeah, Like that's that's
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: the end of the conversation. And but that's kind of
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: interesting because it does lead to that other the love
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: of like Playboy being so wholesome, and this conversation about
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: the drugs issue like within the Playboy mansion and who
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: was providing and who was getting, and the conversation of
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: kueludes yes to that, the fact that Holly again mid
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: two thousands were like, yeah, he had them in his pocket.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: They were called he called them thiye openers. We thought,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: like he didn't joke about it, but she said it
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: so nonchalantly that I'm wondering if she caught herself saying that,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: you know, like it really was like he called them
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: miss thieh openers. And maybe it's just her monotone voice
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: in general, like she doesn't like except for when she's
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: like annoyed, but like it just sounded like yeah, of course,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't the type of conversation that just blew my mind.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: But on top of that this is one of the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: drugs that was used throughout a many perpetrator, like many
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: of the predators who would use different pills like at
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: that point was the drug of choice for what it
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: seemed to like be like Hollywood, whether it was Weinstein,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: whether it's like all of them like wholla, but it
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: seemed to be a conversation and it seemed like commonplace
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: that they just it just was there. It blows my mind.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And in this conversation once again that no everyone is
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: equating having to use this as rape, like, no one
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: except for those who are violently raped.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: And I would also add, so I mean, I don't
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: even know how to put this. If you're Hugh Hefner
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: and you're in your eighties and you are having sex
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: with women who are nineteen, and in order to maintain
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: your ability to do that, you are using Quelus and
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: that's how that whole thing is happening. How do you
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: also get to enjoy a public reputation as a you know,
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: real fox in the bedroom, like oh, like a real
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: like every like every well, this is such a fantasy,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: like right it just I guess That's what I'm saying,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: is like how they've been able to build up this
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: world where it's like yeah, I'm drugging. All the women
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: have to be drugged to have sex with me, and
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: I'm enjoying a public image as like the world's best lover.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Like those two things can't be possible except for in
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: this fantasy land that you built up around yourself.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know. My image of him has never been
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: that he was a good lover. It was just it
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: was accessible.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, in some of these memoirs like he.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, how good of like if you're
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: getting a vaginal infection, Nope, that's not sexy, But yeah,
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: he is having sex with these like young hot women.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: The women.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Fun fact, when they would have these orgies, they were
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: a lack because you might be thinking like, well, maybe
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: the women are having sex with each other and like
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: they're getting something out of it if like he is
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: not performing good. They were only able to have simulated
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: lesbian sex with each other.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: They could not, like they could.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Not actually kiss each other or do things with each other.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: The women they had to just sort of pretend.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: So even even that is like yeah, yeah, you really
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: wanted to make sure these women got nothing out of
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: this encounter that it was as humiliating and unpleasant physically as.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: Possible as possible.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the young twins when they were talking
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Shannon's they were talking about their first experience with Hefner.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: They the way they imply was like it was was demeaning,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Like he the first thing he did was obviously whatever
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: was his fantasy for what Like, it's just a whole
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: level of like, oh, you just really like decided this
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: is what needs.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: To be yes, And I guess it goes back to
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: what you were saying about, like, oh, well, don't women
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: want to be sex objects? And like, you know, isn't
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: this liberal liberation where like when the sex is demeaning
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: and not physically satisfying. It's not like he was like, oh,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: let's make this about your pleasure, like you like, yes,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: you can be a sex object, So like what do
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: you want?
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: Like, what do you like? What are you what are
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: your likes? What are you not?
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Like, Let's let's make sure this is about you. That's
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: not what's going on again. I think there is a
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: world where somebody somewhere could create an empire that that
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: truth maybe truly is about a woman's sexual liberation and pleasure. However,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: one where what the woman wants is not.
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: Does not even come up. Just can't be.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: It right, right, and and there's no mention of that.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I don't even think he talks about it within his magazines,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: does he?
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: No?
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: No, no, because he has to give the girl next door
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: and girl next door can have sex, but they can't
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: have sexual desire.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: You see, you're at once made into a sex object,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: but like in a way unsexed because you're not.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: You were not talking about your desires or what you want.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Right, And you have to fit our ideas so we
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: can doman you and we can be the one to
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: not just the flower, but essentially take that from you.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: It's only liberation if you're being demeaned, ladies, remember that, right.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. And there's so much more that we
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: need to be talking about because honestly, like this it
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: went into a deeper conversation about women, apologizing to women
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: and realizing where they filled each other. In these documentaries again,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Sonia Theodore came into points like I am so sorry
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: to the women that I brought into this. I did
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: not know. I was scared and I ruined your life,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: like she came in like a full level of conversation
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: and like to the point that she felt like she
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: had Stockholm syndrome because she had gone through these things
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: thinking it was okay, came back year after year after
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the year after breaking up with him, having these great relationships,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: pretending like telling everyone how great he was, and then
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: realizing like, wait, this was trauma, which is such a
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: natural story for everyone. There was one point of the
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: interview I was telling you about the splits of the
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: documentary where the journalist is talking to a friend of
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: hers who was a boxer who posed for Playboy, and
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: they were she was talking about she could never say
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: the words rape, She could never say any of these things,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: but she said I had to give in because they
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: saw me as sexual. I was not for Playboy event.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: This was for her actual career stuff. But describing an
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: incident where after the fact she got a lot of
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: posing for Playboy and being told that she's she's this now,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: and she was like, you know, I didn't want to
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: have sech I told them I didn't want to. This
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: person was married, but you know, I was a part
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: of this industry. That's what they expected. I was a
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: part of their team. So I just went hand gave in,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: And the reporter was like, oh, my god, Oh my god.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And they were actual friends and she's like, you never
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: told me this, you never told me this. She's like,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't quite say it's rape. And the friends stopped.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: It's like, no, that's rape. You did not want to
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: do this, And like the woman sat there was like
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the athletes sat there and was like okay, like kind
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: of in that level. But that's what you see playing
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: out as these different women are talking about these incidents
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of like not understanding consent in the first place, not
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: understanding that what was happening was the level of manipulation,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and then not understanding that they were a part of
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: the trafficking ring when they were bringing other women in
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: to be a part of this cycle. So this is
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: such a big conversation within that. Again, I told about
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: the one woman who was just going after other women saying,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: you're just being a gold digger. You knew what you
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: were coming into, which again that phrase was said so
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: many times, Like my heart is racing thinking about it now,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: because the phrase is like you knew what they were
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: we were coming into. They knew what they were going into,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: they knew what this was about. Like as if to
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: validate what was happening, and it's like, but that that
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: wasn't even like honestly tore into. That wasn't even like
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: opened up to like that level of conversation in this
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: documentary because they really didn't have time and they didn't
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: have the space and the emotional space to really dig
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: through all of that because kind of like reliving the
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: stories and saying it out loud was like, oh, these
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: are the things that happened. But again, like and there
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: were a couple of accusations of Hugh Hefner forcibly raping women,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: which hasn't been said previously, And one one victim spoke
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: up about what she had gone through and I think
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: this one hit too close to me like my own
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: experiences that I almost like threw up, like what she
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: was talking about through her own childhood, uh, and then
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: getting to this point with this man who she told
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: she was told that this was safe, that she was safe,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: and then being ripped apart, and then everybody ignoring it
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: and to the point like she went to a higher
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: up who was a woman and was like, oh my god,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: this happened. She's like, oh, is that all? You're fine?
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: He's not gonna he's not gonna do anything against you.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: You're fine, Like he's not gonna as it would be retaliatory,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: or he's not gonna being to you for this. It's fine.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And that was what she had to walk away with.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: But like those levels like yeah, he has been personally
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: accused of raping women. That needs to be said out loud. Uh,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: though everybody else wants to dance around this whole like, oh,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you know she had to be talked into a little bit,
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: or oh we were being paid or whoa, we knew
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: what we were walking into. Do what I like it?
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Did I want to know? Did I have to smoke
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of weed? Sure, but we knew, Like that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: level that's still coorsion, that is still considered a type
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: of rape, that is still goods to your will, but
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: like true levels of like that higher level like yeah,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: this dude got away with it. This dude got away
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: with it. And in these conversations again like the wider
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: range he may have got like there's allegations of him
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: being a part of cover ups of deaths, allegations of
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: cover ups of drug trafficking, like literally, FBI, Like there's
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: just level though, and you almost tell me like there's
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: so much of like the anti like anti hero conversations,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: especially when it comes to drug use and like almost
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: like organized crime level that you root for the bad.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Guys, you know what I mean.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And that's still that part of you of like huh,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: like people would take that and credit him as being cool,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, even though allegations are so gross.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that moving drugs, you might
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: look at that and be like, oh, he really knew
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: how to do what it took to keep the party going.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: And it's like, well, also.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Moving women as cargo, as sociable cargo, that part is
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: le right, like.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Using them as mules. Yes, yes, it's not quite cool.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: This is not the thing. This is not the thing.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: But like there's the depths of what goes into the story,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: like the depths of like things that are hidden. So
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: like we also talked about the exploitation that he had taken,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: the tapes they had taken, the extra photos and like
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: all of not only the tapes of them taking pictures
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: being taken, pictures of which had been released to the
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: shock of many of the women, especially like the older
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: women who had told that this would never exist because
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: that medium hadn't existed at that point or didn't think
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: they needed that at that point, as now being released
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: because Playboy sold it without any of the women consenting
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: nor getting money for it. Once again, and this was
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: not too long ago, but in the actual videos made
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: from the security cameras, like from what I gathered, Mickey
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Garcia and Sonya Theodore actually came together and started trying
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: to petition to find out what was happening or what
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: happened with those videos, because many of them were so
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: petrified that these would be released and they were told
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that it is somewhere in the sea. Now I'm wondering,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: like if people heard that and we're gonna try to
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: find it.
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, I think so.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: I mean something that you said that six with me
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: is like he got away with it, And I feel
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: like where we are now in twenty twenty four, I'm happy,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: Like I would have said, yes, I remember when he died,
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: we saw all the conversations about free speech and racial
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: equity and women's lib and sexual freedom and all of that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: But I and so it does kind of feel like
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: broadly he got away with it. But I am happy
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: that we are in a place now where women's voices
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: are being elevated in this conversation and that we are
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: actually creating a legacy where maybe he won't get away
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: with it. Maybe we we'll continue to speak up and
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: continue to listen to people who speak up and not
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: just be like, oh, well, they knew what they were
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: getting into their being paid, and actually have a full
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: accounting of his legacy. And even for people who like
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: Hugh Hefner, which obviously I don't think. I don't think
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: anybody will be surprised that we probably don't fit into
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: that category. You should be able to contend with his
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: full legacy. And this is all part of that legacy.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: And so if you want to honor who he was,
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: honor him fully.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: This is part of that.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: Even if you love his free speech and love all
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: the other things that he's done, don't just take the good.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: Take a full accounting of who the man was.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Right, right, agreed, And you're right. I think that that's
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: got to be something that we have to remember, is
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: that as long as we keep talking about it and
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: making sure we tell the full story, or at least
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the full story as we know it, and continue to
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: unfold for the sake of all the survivors like those
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: who are speaking out that we support them by making
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: sure that we elevate their voice.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well obviously we had a lot of thoughts,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: we had a lot to say. So, Bridgets, where can
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: the good listeners find you?
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: Well, you can find me at my podcast. There are
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: no girls on the internet where we were having similar
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: conversations about the legacy of women and technology and digital media.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you as always, Bridget for being here. We
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: love having you. Clearly we could go on and on
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: and on, so thank you so much for taking the time.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: And this brings us to the end of our epic
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: conversation on you Efner. Maybe there will be an epilogue,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: as we discussed.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I honestly there's gonna be so much more because
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: I honestly forgot one big chunk that on Hugh Hefner's
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: real like the beginning may have been because he was
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: essentially kind of an in cell like he may have
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: been essentially an in cel because he changed his whole
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: perspective on women and what he had to be in
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: order to get women. So the legend goes, because he
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: was rejected biogirl in his high school to the point
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: that he wrote about her for many years later. Wow,
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: and then this and then that he changed his whole
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: appearance and his whole like uh I guess out like
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: his whole personality essentially according to old friends. So yeah,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: I think there has to be an epilogue because we definitely,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: even with the two hours that we spent in this conversation,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: there was so much more that we had left out.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Is intense.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: It's sad how often that is the case of like
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: a guy gets spurned in high school and then becomes
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the founder of Facebook or what have you. Right, that's
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: not exactly what happened there, but similar well, I look
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: forward to and I'm nervous about the epilogue. It's always
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: great to hang out with Bridget, who's so kind with
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: her time when we kept going and had so much
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: to say. Listeners. If you have any thoughts about this,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: you can contact us. You can email ust Stephanie and
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, our Instagram and TikTok
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: at stuff We've Never told You. We're also on YouTube.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: We have a tea public store, and we have a
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: as always too, our super produced Christina, our executive producer,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: my intrbutor Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Stuff Never told you his prediction of iHeartRadio. For more
• 46:41
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