Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Ashley Shak-Penn // Material Systems

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Ashley Shak-Penn // Material Systems · Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE

• Danielle: guest today has spent the last decade following the thread of sustainability wherever it leads her. Pardon the button. ⁓ From Fiji to Docklands of Dublin, from UN accelerators spanning 70 countries, down to a circular fashion week in this very city, Dublin. Ashley Shack Penn is a sustainability strategist with a global cross-sector background. And what's striking about her story is how consistent the through line has been, even as the contexts have shifted dramatically through sectors. She trained formally as a development practitioner, working for various UN ⁓ agencies, including the UN Global Compact in New York, the UN Development Programme in South Africa, and IFAD in Fiji, and is a published UN author. When she landed back in Ireland, she moved into the Irish startup ecosystem at Dog Patch Labs, the leading accelerator, helping startups collaborate on climate-focused initiatives and positioning Ireland as a global testbed for innovation. That programme gives startups access to wind farms, dairy farms, forestry, working sustainability into the actual infrastructure of the country. Now she's applying that expertise to circular design in fashion and textiles as the MD of Dublin Independent Fashion Week, where sustainability isn't just a badge, it's core to the work they do collectively. She's someone who consistently builds things from zero with a track record of building early stage initiatives, bringing together diverse stakeholders, unlocking funding, and driving strategy from concept to execution. Which makes me so pleased to welcome you, Ashley. Welcome. Ashley Shak-Penn: Thanks, Danielle. It's great to be here. Danielle: Great to have you. So to begin with, maybe we'll start with your career and how you started out, because your LinkedIn ⁓ profile describes you as formerly trained as a development practitioner. I'd love to know what that is and how you got in that way. Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, trust me, I didn't even know what a development practitioner was when I first heard it. So I found out that label as it was given to us. But basically, that was my postgrad degree, which was really focused on international sustainable development. So I think, you know, one of the common threads, I guess, or something I've always wanted to do across all of my lines of work, is really see how I can best create opportunities for different peoples, different groups or communities, while making sure it's not an extractive relationship. You know, so I really started doing that in the development space, really working internationally in developing countries and stuff. So a lot of my focus was in the Pacific with the Fiji and Pacific Islands and everything. But there I was working with highland farmers and just ensuring that we could connect them with the really high end tourist industry, with the people coming from Australia and New Zealand or even the states. ⁓ And you know, spending so much money in Fiji, but That money wasn't really going to the people who were living there. So that's what I was doing in the international development space. I actually came to Ireland to do my degree at Trinity College Dublin, and then I started working for the United Nations. I was running a bunch of different accelerators with them, primarily in what we were calling the Africa Hub. So South Africa primarily, but also Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenya, and everything. And then COVID hit, and so I was going back and forth from South Africa. Africa to here, but ended up just staying here and of course falling in love, loving it here so much. So I decided to leave my job at the UN and see if I could take those skills of you know wanting to connect communities to be able to help them and also that operational lens. So I started working for Dog Patch Labs here, which is Ireland's leading startup incubator, kind of doing the same thing, running sustainability accelerators, helping people more with their startups, less so like the big companies. We were working with the UN, but here's startup founders. So I kind of went from working with like international communities, trying to create opportunities from them, to then startup founders. And I mean, across my life, I've worked either with the nonprofit space or the startup space. And it's very, you know, they might seem like opposite sides of the spectrum, but I guess it's like the horseshoe theory. It all comes together and they're quite similar because at the end of the day, they're both so such in need of resources, whether that's people resources, financial. Even just time. So, you know, a startup founder and a nonprofit founder are dealing with very similar things. So I found the things I was doing with the UN or working with nonprofits was still really helpful working with startup founders here. Most of it was tech. A lot of you know Ireland's tech industry is B2B, and a lot of it is software. It was exciting because I could work with some hardware in sustainability. So naturally, when you're working with things like wind farms or electricity or dairy farms, a lot of that's going. Be hardware, ⁓ and I loved that. I was introduced to a lot of design thinking through those accelerators and everything. One of my colleagues who I was quite close with was a lecturer before at NCAD in design thinking, working with some final year students, and I just loved the way he approached different, you know, different situations, which was so different than your traditional entrepreneur, like think fast and break things, you know. That was so encouraged, and in some ways, you do. keep that in the design thinking and kind of I guess like the art school method, but I found that my f my colleague was just so okay with like making those mistakes and being okay with those mistakes and showing those to the clients and like this was our thought process. Where before I was so trained to just show the client the finished, you know, product. ⁓ so I was really inspired by that, and as I was kind of coming to my end at Dog Patch Labs and wanting to try something new, I decided to go back to school and do a part-time degree at NCAD. And so that degree is just finishing up now, but it's circular design and fashion and textiles. Danielle: Mm. Ashley Shak-Penn: I've always had an interest and of course passion for fashion and design. ⁓ My mom worked in the fashion industry in Paris and New York and then in LA. So I always grew up seeing that. I was more on the sustainability route, but these days, of course, it's all coming together. So I'm taking that kind of sustainability experience, that operational experience, starting things from the ground and now really helping designers. So it's kind of moved from you know international development communities. to startup founders to now designers. And again, I guess you can add that on. It's like NGO founders, startup founders, and designers, they're all dealing with a similar thing of just like not enough resources, not enough hours in the day. Danielle: Mm. Yeah, they all have similar problems. And it's it's such a global ⁓ resume that you have, you know, you've really kind of been around ⁓ different markets, different industries. does it feel like they're kind of all distinctly different chapters within your career, or does it feel like it's kind of building into this bigger, bigger picture or this bigger singular practice? Ashley Shak-Penn: It's interesting you say that because now I think Living in Ireland, I've been here for about eight years now, and it's probably the longest I've ever spent lived in like one place besides growing up in California. And I can't help but imagine I'm always wonder to myself, I'm like, is everywhere kind of like Ireland or have I just been here for so long? Because even when I was in Fiji, we were like, wow, there's so many similarities. People, you know, it's a small island, everyone knows each other, everyone knows each other's business, they all want to help each other, you know, you just go out for a drink with them. But at the same time, I'm working with Mongolia, which is geographically huge. Huge, but still the similar energy where it's like it's so community-based, and you know, you know, you have to know people to really get things done. People just invite you into their house and stuff, and they have that warmth and everything. So I don't really know if it's like I'm attracted to those kind of places, or maybe the work I do best is in those places where there's already that community feel, and then it's kind of my job to just come in and just like. you know, kick start those like those systems and stuff and make sure they're working in the best way possible to benefit those people. ⁓ I guess I've yet to work in a place where it's felt super disconnected and no one's wanted to help each other, but again, maybe that's just because I'm not attracted to those kind of places. That being said, I haven't worked in the States in a while, which is funny, because I talked to my friends back home and they explained to me how their businesses are working in the States, even in the Silicon Valley where I'm from, and I'm like, it just sounds so different than Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. And is it I maybe it's that kind of point of community and that ability to, you know, galvanize community, grow community, and then actually lean on that community as well to kind of help support each other? Because I think Dog Pack Patch ⁓ is all about that as well, isn't it? It's kind of you know that sense of we're all in it together, you know, and ⁓ helping each other out and that kind of network of people. Is that kind of that that community aspect is is kinda where your your heart lies really. Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, definitely. And yeah, Patrick Walsh, the CEO and founder of Dogpatch, he's done an amazing job of creating that community. It's like a a full pillar of their strategy. And they started off really as like that community, the physical space where startup founders could come and talk and just speak. And then it kind of moved into a more of a programmatic thing. ⁓ but I guess yeah, I was really drawn to that. When I was at the UN and I was running those accelerators, again for me it was about ki building that community of like I was working in seventy different markets. But it was really just translating that high-level curriculum into the different markets and making sure everyone felt, all the country managers felt like they had a stake in this program and wanted it to go forward. And then even now here in the fashion space, it's like, how can we build this community even further? How can we make it even more connected? Just beyond the initial like, ⁓ we're all so friendly with each other. It's like, how can we make that work for us the best way possible? Danielle: And I think the, I suppose the fashion industry itself is probably the most scrutinised industry when it comes to sustainability and sustainability washing. how do you feel how sustainable is the fashion industry or can the fashion industry get to? Is there a point at which it can actually be a sustainable model? Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, I mean that's an interesting question when I started my degree that we all asked each other, it's like, can an industry that's built on selling and creating things for people can that ever be truly sustainable? I mean, to be honest, it might just come to a terms of like redefining what sustainability looks like in this industry. Like maybe sustainability for us is going to look a lot different than sustainability in the in the energy sector, you know. In my whole, you know, drive of trying to create opportunities for people, I Danielle: Yeah. Ashley Shak-Penn: Realize that that still is always going to mean making money for people, you know? That's gonna drive their businesses. So it's an unrealistic thing to say, we're just gonna stop consuming, you know, we're just gonna ask the average person to stop going to the high street and buying a shirt that they need tomorrow, you know. But it's more like, how can we make that the most sustainable for the fashion industry? Does that mean, you know, educating the customer on, you know, how to buy more, you know, sustainably or something like that? Is it educating the producer? Producer on okay, can we make these small changes to make something more like less toxic or something, you know, use less of a synthetic material and everything. But again, I'm and I think because of my global experience, I kind of differ from some of my colleagues where I'm not afraid of the globalization of the fashion industry. You know, again, trying to be realistic. I would love for the art to be more of a manufacturing industry for fashion here in Ireland, but at the same time you know realistically there's so much going on even in Vietnam those tailors there have been way more you know experienced and are producing way more with higher tech equipment and everything for the last few decades you know so we're a bit behind in that so it's trying to stay realistic and again I think just redefining what sustainability will mean for us you know here in Ireland if it's not manufacturing is it you know a focus on what we do have linen wool stuff like that Danielle: Mm-hmm. And you think it is a gap in knowledge? Because I think that if you if you spoke to the average person who is going into the high street to pick out that shirt for tomorrow, you know, they haven't, you know, an intention to be sustainable or a a desire to be sustainable. Do you think it's a lack of knowledge, a lack of knowing where these things are made, how they're made, the processes? Is it an education piece or is it down to cost? You know, this is cheap, I can afford this, you know, there's a cost of living crisis. There is it a bit of both? Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, I mean I guess it is both because I remember when we were training the huge businesses through the UN Accelerator, we knew that at the end of the day there has to be a business case for sustainability. But luckily, many times being sustainable means saving money, you know, it means spending less on things, doing things more efficiently. So we were always focused on how can we f like show these S P five hundred companies that at the end of the day, you're gonna spend millions less on this and then you're also gonna attract a brand new customer, you know? So it's really speaking to both sides of it. And so I'm really so against, you know, guilting people for shopping at pennies because they want to, because maybe they have to do that. I think it'd be great if brands could take the onus of actually also educating their customers. ⁓ I know HM is trying to do that more on like organic cotton initiatives and stuff. ⁓ but it's like how much can we trust a giant company that at the end of the day has to create, you know, bring back money for. Their stakeholders that they're doing this for the right reason, you know. So I think it's definitely both. ⁓ since starting this degree and even just working so much more with like Irish designers and Irish manufacturers, I myself am so much more educated on materials, but that's not a luxury that everyone can afford. So it's like, how can we best put that into like a easily communicable like little tidbit for the consumer. Is it just like a little swing tag? Is it a QR code? I think there's a huge opportunity in business for someone to crack that. Danielle: Yeah. And then so your your career is pointed towards like your degree and then the fashion and now you are the managing director of Dublin Independent Fashion Week. Congratulations. but I would like to just kinda acknowledge the incredible founders who started ⁓ the the Fashion Week. ⁓ and it was a fashion weekend to begin with, wasn't that right? Ashley Shak-Penn: Exactly. ⁓ we'll show you the the first ever poster here from twenty twenty three. You can see Dublin Independent Fashion Week and then the end is kind of Coming off, and it fully came off the weeks after that or the years after that, and it just became Dumbledore Independent Fashion Week. ⁓ but it was started in 2023 by a group of designers who were just friends. They had just met at the Trinity Fashion Show. So it was Ryan Hanora, who has her own studio, Ashling Duffy also has her own studio, Leisha Carey, The Zero Waster, who's ⁓ Sarah O'Neill, ⁓ Mihai Mar, who owns Mar Knitwear, and also Shock of Grey, the jewelry business owned by Sarah. Sarah Carroll Kelly. ⁓ So they came together, they decided, ⁓ you know, amazing to see all these small shows across the you know city and stuff, but why can't we have something together? ⁓ And we all these resources, we have all this knowledge. Why don't we, you know, try and do something with it? So they put together this amazing show in the chocolate factory over a couple days. ⁓ that of course just got so much great feedback and support from the industry. You know, there was that call out of like, why isn't there more of this? And of course, it's So easy to be like, why isn't this more there more of this? People have been saying that for years, but to actually do something about it, as I'm sure everyone knows, is another question. ⁓ I always ask my dad that. I'm like, ⁓ why don't you do this? He's like, That's a great idea. Why don't you do that for me, actually? So it's a matter of getting someone else to do it. ⁓ but yeah, that was so that was in 2023, and then in 2024, They got a grant from the DCCI, so the Design Craft Council of Ireland, to run it for a full week. So that's why it extended to a little bit longer. That was in Smoke Alley. And then in 2025, which is when I joined, it was like the biggest showcase yet. They really like we opened up the doors to every and all designer, essentially. We understood that you know opening it up to everyone also meant maybe losing a little bit of that career. Creative control, but that was you know that meant that more people could join, and honestly, your impact just gets bigger. That's just the reality of growing the business. And so, yeah, that was an amazing year. We finished with ⁓ a show at the Imma, a closing ceremony at the Imma, which at the time was the largest showing of Irish designers of any showcase, so that was amazing to do. ⁓ I was really proud of that partnership with the Imma because as we grow, so one of the biggest things we Want to do is to get fashion recognized as a fundable art form, and so to be seen and you know associated with fine art essentially, which is of course at the top of the arts council's fundable definitions, that was a really big push for us. ⁓ so yeah, and after that, ⁓ it was again such a successful so much goodwill. People coming us say, 'We want to help, we just don't know how.' And so I went to the committee and I like, I think the next thing that makes sense. Is formalizing this, you know, and again it's that thing of like everyone that's a great idea, no one wants to do it. Realistically, all of these designers have their own brands to look after, and that's of course always going to be their priority. So we went ahead and we put them on the board of directors in March. So only a couple months ago, we were officially formalized as a CLG, so we operate as a non-profit. ⁓ I'm the managing director, I have Jason Andres as my brand and ⁓ socials director. And then also goodness and fellow as my finance director. All three of us have worked in the corporate setting. So we have that experience really for the governance and everything. So everything now is running full speed ahead towards getting funding, launching new initiatives and everything. So it's a very exciting time for us. Danielle: The like it sounds fantastic and it would like, you know, it took over social, I think, when it you know, all of the activity that was going on just felt like it was so focused and it was there was so much energy and it was kinda like, you know, this sense of finally there's a there's a scene that's visible. The scene was always there, but the the fashion scene is really, really visible. ⁓ so it was fantastic to see it from from the outside, from my point of view, I thought, wow, this is fantastic ⁓ what's happening here. But that kinda energy that like, you know, excitement ⁓ and like You know, and now it's kind of been wrapped in a formal structure in governance. You know, you're kind of talking about, some of the maybe less exciting things, you know, about having your board of directors how do you move ⁓ such an energetic movement from ⁓ something that was built from the ground up by the that really wanted it because saw, look, there's a gap here and we're not being serviced in the way we want to be? ⁓ to not You know, to formalizing it but not killing the vibe and not killing it altogether, you know, and burying it under structure. How do you how do you wrestle with that? Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing that we're going to try and we keep at the top of our mind throughout the past few months and also for the next year. it is something that started, you know, it it's something that started as a grassroots movement, you know, that no one asked for, but everyone wanted. ⁓ and I guess again, that was a thing. It was like people wanted the and they wanted the formalization, but no one was actually ever asking for it. So it's like, how can we continue making this essentially a business that is able to make enough money to be able to run so we can still help other people while still creating like having that creative control. It was really important for me to keep the founders on the board of directors. Right now we're not growing the board because I still want to keep it you know our first year as you know a formalized business with them at the strategic helm. I really hope that that will keep you know that same energy, that same passion for helping people, for creating that community at its at its core really. But yeah at the end of the day I know making money is almost Like a dirty word sometimes, you know. And even when we were coming, we you know, I was bringing to the board the different membership options. We're like, this is what we're gonna charge people. Again, it was like a three-hour long discussion of like how do we charge, like, what is that perfect amount of money where we can charge people and like run the business at the same time? We are independent, you know, we realize that they don't make that much money, that we are the accessible one. So, how do we keep being accessible? Even with ⁓ we just launched the talent directory which will include a video here of what it looks like once paying members get access to it. But even then it's like how do we go through the approvals process if we're you know the inclusive fashion week of Ireland if we want everyone to have an opportunity but at time we can't accept everyone because then it's if it's everyone it's not just a community. ⁓ So that's something that we're still in the midst of figuring out hoping to be able to get there by balancing really again that like corporate government Governance and that drive to you know make enough money to survive, and also that creative powerhouse that is our board of directors. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it is important that they kinda I suppose their vision is still is still in there at the top of thinking when decisions are being made. But you mentioned there the talent directory. this this has just come out in the last week or so. So ⁓ people can apply, is it apply be on the talent directory? ⁓ how does that work? Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, it's something that's super exciting. It kind of grew out of nothing. I didn't really realize what I'd created until someone was like, ⁓ my gosh, you need to tell someone about this, you need to go to the press with this. ⁓ but it basically came to be because in the past years, when people have joined Fashion Week and have wanted to do their own event, they've asked us, they're like, ⁓ do you have a list of models? Do you have a list of photographers? You know, and at first it was just like group chats sending things around. Then it grew to kind of like, okay, here's an Excel spreadsheet. We can send this around and then as we were formalized every everything and I knew I wanted everything to just like look really together I put together a website and I was thinking you know if we have this like back end or this portal basically that paying members are going to log into, what can we offer them? You know, so I was sitting down thinking to myself like we have this intangible community but what's that physical part that someone can pay and access? And so I thought about all that like priceless you know data we had. Of course with like GDPR, we couldn't just send that out to everyone again. So I was like, okay, we'll create this data, ⁓ this talent directory. And so, because of you know, all the people I worked with at Dog Patch Labs, a super talented community of coders and everything, ⁓ I just walked into the office one day and I asked around, and someone was like, Yeah, I am a coder, but I also have loads of interest in fashion and fashion history and everything. ⁓ so I started working with someone named Caitlin Davis. She's just in between her undergrad and her postgrad. Right now, free to just hang around in the summer. So I've been working with her, she's helped code the talent directory. But it's basically it's Ireland's first ever talent directory for an independent creative ⁓ industry, essentially. And we really wanted to democratize that process because so many times you have to go through an agency, which of course, again, agencies you know they have to make money themselves, but it's expensive for independent designers, and it's just that barrier, just one more barrier that makes it impossible for them to run. Run their brand. So for us, they get to pay members get to pay like a one-time fee. They're then able to access that talent directory for as many things as they need for that year. And then also paying that, they get to submit an event for DIFW26. So which is our week from September 10th to the 16th. And then on the other side, creatives were always asking how can I get involved? They can just fill out that talent directory. If they're a model, they can fill out their name, their portfolio. We ask them to put Little bit more about their practice. So then on the other side, when members are looking through the database, they can say, ⁓ they can see the headshots like this person looks like they would fit my aesthetic, but then they can also see their portfolio and be like, Yes, this is exactly what I'm looking for. So we just launched it basically on Tuesday. I looked earlier today. We have almost like 200 applications in total that I still need to go through. So I think that in itself has just shown there's such a demand for this type of thing on both sides, you know. We've had Talent applications, and we've also had members who are trying to get in to access it. So. Danielle: Yeah. That's really important. So there's two ways in which you can connect through the talent directory or then through ⁓ becoming a member and then supporting the the organization to stay independent, right? Yeah. And Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah. Yeah, and then we also do have a third option where if people just want to donate money, they can. We got our first donation from ⁓ a well-wisher from a completely different industry. But I think that's also what my goal is as managing director these days is just ensuring that the DIFW brand goes beyond fashion because that's just even opens even more doors. ⁓ we were shortlisted for the BMW Future Entrepreneur Award, which we went to yesterday. And it was amazing being of course in a room with other founders, but all these other different founders, the winner was the all-real nutrition protein bar. So it was like all these different, it was like food, it was like health and well-being. ⁓ there was some AI and some tech, but of course all founders had the same issues. But it was great because so many people again are like, ⁓ this sounds amazing. Of course we need this kind of thing, but we'd never heard of the brand before. So that's what I really want to do is make sure that like people in other industries know, they can connect us. Danielle: Yeah. ⁓ and it is important, you know, to talk about the money aspect as well. And, you know, a lot of I think a lot of ⁓ people shy away from from that, but like these things can't exist for free, you know, so it is really important to kind of to keep that in mind. ⁓ and you mentioned there ⁓ you were you're trying to get ⁓ fashion you know, as a fundable art form and the the Arts Act. ⁓ what what do you think needs to happen to make that a reality? Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, so One of yeah, one of our big focuses is in the policy and the advocacy space for this year. We want to go beyond just a week of events from the 10th to the 16th. It's like after September ends, what are we gonna focus on? ⁓ so along with we also wanted to start doing some professional developments, mentoring, you know, reaching out to colleges. We already work with like NCAD and LSAD and work more with students, maybe even secondary students, to get them into the industry. But then the other area we wanna work on is policy and advocacy because yeah. Fashion isn't seen as a fundable art form by the Arts Council. And I just came up to this to a head with this a couple weeks ago because we went to an Arts Council, like festival conference. It was basically a a conference for festival runners to try and learn more and get money. I was planning to apply for money for a festival because it was like, okay, at its core. The week itself could be considered a festival. ⁓ and I spoke to this lovely guy from the Arts Council, and he's like, I'm just gonna be completely honest with you, and I don't want you to waste your time. But unless you have fine art or something in your festival, primarily, you're not gonna get money. And so I appreciated that ⁓ transparency. But then he he was talking about the Arts Act, we looked through it, hasn't been updated in decades. Things on there were like architecture, something that I think also. makes money in another way but is still funded by them or circus all these things that are they you know are outside fine art and they still make money but they're they're seen as fundable and so that's kind of what we're coming up with because as a platform of wanting to support different artists and fashion creatives part of that is making sure they can get paid and if they can't get funding from these bodies it makes it impossible for them to start a business here and then of course they go abroad. Industry that's the case, like in tech, we were always asking ourselves why is there such a financial industry here? But there's no fintech startups here. Why do they all have to go to Estonia? Even Iceland, we we had an Irish founder who went to Iceland because they were better, you know, it's a better environment for them to start their business than here, which is such a shame. And I think the government is just has to catch up with it. Again, that's in both the industries I've worked with in here. It's like there's that demand, everyone's asking for it, but the legislation just hasn't caught. up. The Arts Council basically told us to contact our local T D to figure out. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Ashley Shak-Penn: And so I know that was a nice way of telling us that's not their problem. And it is ours. So I think realistically, again, if we can get people knowing, every person we've said, like, this is what we want to do, get fashion identified as a funble art form, no one has said, ⁓ yeah, I know that's an issue, besides the designers themselves. Every single person is like, ⁓ I didn't know that, and that's not fair. You know? So it's like if we can raise that awareness and more people know and more people start talking about it, then hopefully there can be more pressure. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashley Shak-Penn: put on, you know, amending that Arts Act. Those amendments happen all the time. So yeah, that would be the ideal thing. Danielle: Yeah, and it's it's i it it probably is shocking to most people that they think, ⁓ it's not there, why is it not there, you know? ⁓ and like you know, there's a total real like r the reality is in other countries there's like, you know, it is f funded as an art form. ⁓ and like even if you think of like the Met Gala, not the Met Gala of now with you know, Anna Wentor, but of you know, of its inception. That was all about ⁓ legitimizing fashion as an art form. i within the Metropolitan Gallery or a Metropolitan Museum, I should say. ⁓ you know, so like there's a long, long standing history of ⁓ fashion being considered an art form and part of culture. So, you know, certainly I think it's it's it's you know it's ripe for change and the Arts Act should should certainly ⁓ include that. But luckily your your contact in the Arts Council gave you a a a a fast no rather than a a a long maybe, you know. ⁓ and you can kind of focus your time elsewhere. ⁓ But then I suppose ⁓ what are your thoughts on ⁓ Ireland Fashion Week? So where they are trying to subsidise the shows for ⁓ the fashion designers? Ashley Shak-Penn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess similar to when I was working in tech, we always said, you know, Ireland is too small of a place for there to be too much competition and not collaboration. So again, that's applicable, I think, in the fashion industry too. Over the last six months, ⁓ as we've formalized into a non-profit, you know, trying to get Ireland or trying to get fashion seen as an art form. ⁓ and then Ireland Fashion Week has also announced their luxury ⁓ f investment group. I think it's really become clear in the industry where our two strengths Lie and really where our focuses lie. ⁓ We really want to focus on creating that industry here that's at its core really inclusive ⁓ and really representative of what Ireland looks like today. And also, you know, maybe it's not just designers, but it's also different curators or producers. I know last year Oxfam had a really good panel with us. So again, if maybe there's someone who's interested in fashion but they don't fit that actual definition of a designer who's creating a show who wants buyers to come and export their business, they can do a show with us with Fashion Week. So it's really creating that community and that inclusivity and that support, I think, is where we differentiate ourselves. Danielle: What is it like then for you know, the young emerging ⁓ fashion designers coming out? Like what what is what are the options, you know? Is it emigrate and try try somewhere else? Or, you know, without a platform like the one you're building, i i are there opportunities in Ireland? Ashley Shak-Penn: It's hard for me to say because I myself wasn't a fashion graduate here. ⁓ and whenever I speak to emerging, what we call emerging designers, recent grads and everything, they say there's you know of course there's no jobs here or it's primarily unpaid. Now I know that that's very common in a lot of different industries or sorry, in a lot of different countries for this industry. It's a lot of unpaid work ⁓ in fashion. Also a lot of unpaid work in the UN and development space. I guess those things are also very similar, extractive at its core. ⁓ but I think the difference in other countries is like you do unpaid work. I've even heard people talk about it in New York, in the fashion industry, like where my mom was. You do unpaid work, but then you start, you do climb up the ladder and you get paid, you get that recognition, and there is that industry that you grow into. Still not fair, but you get there. Whereas here, I don't think it's even those high-up jobs exist to really go for. So it's kind of like these emerging designers, you know, they're taking those that unpaid work and they're just hoping that in 10 years. Down the line, there's going to be that industry. There's going to be fashion houses here that are going to employ them. If not, they just, you know, should have been doing that in London, we should have been doing it in Copenhagen or something. So it is really tough. But that being said, it's a tough job market for everyone right now. I know that ⁓ I've heard differing opinions about how some people say ⁓ in fashion degrees right now, not enough actual machinist work is being taught. And then on the other side and then someone I I heard someone say that actually at an event, but then I know someone else who said, No, I wish I had more experience on the business side, on the calm side. You know, so I think in general, there's there's good education in both, but just not bringing it together to create that well-crafted individual. But again, that's something that even like in the fight against AI of us trying to become more valued workers, we all just realize we need to pick up so many different skills to be able to compete on the job. Danielle: Yeah. But I think the type of work that ⁓ someone in the fashion industry does is is h largely self employed. ⁓ and I know in the design area as well, design and creative subjects, a lot of people come out and they're self employed too. So it kinda ⁓ doesn't make any sense that they are not equipped with, you know, even basic business skills and promotional skills and as you say, comms to be able to kind of articulate what they do, sell themselves. and find clients, you know. So there's a whole world that could that kind of introductory world, which yeah, you'll make mistakes, but at least you'll have some kind of vocabulary to deal with that. It's I think it's so so important. So it's interesting that ⁓ you guys are considering expanding to professional development. ⁓ and probably I would see that maybe as a maybe one part of the focus of some of that professional development need within the community that you're building. Ashley Shak-Penn: Definitely. Yeah. So we're because we're in this really exciting scaling phase right now, we're raising money to be able to expand that programmatic part where throughout the year when we don't have the events, we're able to do that mentoring because again, we've had that goodwill of people in the industry who have made, you know, their mark in other countries, but they're Irish, want to come back and they want to help. So they want to be able to teach people. We want to be able to harness that, you know, goodwill and make it into something, whether that's like mentorship program or professional. Development type program and everything. But even from what I've seen, you know, having like a traditional like sciences, you know, undergrad to then going into like this very theoretical research-based degree at Trinity to now being at NCAD in a very hands-on degree. They're all so different in their approaches. And it is almost like through my arts degree, there isn't a focus on how you can make money or how you can make this a business. Because it's not even making money, it's like how can I make this a business? So, you know, you can last essentially. And so yeah, when I was working in the startup space, I wasn't seen as the type of person who was focused on the money. They're like, ⁓ Ashley's a sustainability girl. She doesn't care about that. We'll go to her for other things. And now when I'm in the arts space, it's like, ⁓ yeah, Ashley, she's just trying to make money. She's just trying to like make a business and everything. So like there should I'm the same person. There shouldn't be that dichotomy, you know? But it shows I think what the different focuses are in those different industries and they just need to come together. Danielle: you're the hustler that's going to get the money, bring in the money. But it's like it's so important. Like it's so important to have that person and that mindset and that kind of foresight to say, look, we need to be able to deliver, you know, programmatic ⁓ things, we need to be del to be able to deliver a mentorship, etc. etc. But they need to be funded and that this is the plan to get there, you know, and I that's really, really important. And I wonder is that was that maybe some of the first work that you kind of took on as the MD looking at the system and the ecosystem that you were in and then this ecosystem you were hoping to build. And you know, was when you mapped out that system, where were the kind of where were the weak points and what what was fragile and then what were were you kind of like, well that's that's fine, that part is fine, but what this is what we really need to work on. Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah, I guess what I was always teaching in the accelerators and like in the business incubators is of course the number one thing you always say is like know your customer and then in knowing your customer it's like knowing what their pain points are, you know, putting yourselves in their shoes and being like, if I'm going through this, what are the different things that I'm facing? And only then can you come up with a solution. You know, if you come up with a product and it's not solving anyone's problem, then you know, it's not gonna sell. ⁓ so I think that's the number one thing I was doing when I was coming. Into this role, and I was like, okay, I need to formalize everything. Love the admin side, which is why I'm perfect for this type of job. But then it's like looking towards the future, what do we need to provide people? So I think that's how the talent directory came out. You know, we have a constant stream of people coming in our inbox being like, ⁓ I want to help with this, I want to help with this. We obviously need that help, but again, how can we harness that? So that's where the talent directory come in came out. Also, I created that because Ashling Duffy, one of our board members, was just overwhelmed with different emails. So I was like, how can I make your life easier so you can step back and do more of a strategic role? Let me take all those emails from you. I'll like automate it into a form and then we can do this. And also that's how we can make money from it. We'll charge members so they can access it. So that was definitely one part of it. Now at this point in June, we're about a month away from releasing the event submission forms. So when members actually want to talk about the logistics of the event they're going to run during Fashion Week. So now I'm in this You know, time and place where I'm wondering what kind of supports do they need? So we're developing like an event checklist. Like if we do say we're here to help and be inclusive of people who have never run a show before, what kind of questions are they going to have? If I was going to run a show for the first time, how do I find talent? You know, I use a talent directory, how do I find money? Okay, how can we? Well, that's what question we're asking too, but how can we connect them with different people to do that? How can we, you know, help them find a venue? So over the past three months. I've been on so many different site visits to different venues, and we've finalized three different really exciting venue partnerships where they're going to offer us spots to give to our like our signature level membership. So when certain people want to run an event and they can pay a little bit more, we can provide them with venues free of charge. So again, that's something of like where are those barriers for them to hold the best event that they want, and how can we help? I think running accelerators also, I was always putting myself in the shoes of like the experience of the person, you know, so it's like if they're gonna be looking for X, Y, Z, how can we be one step ahead and give them that support? Danielle: Hmm. That's great. And then in in terms of that, the the you know, week of activity, ⁓ and it's kinda, you know, an open access to people almost to kinda get involved, how do you manage quality, right? 'Cause you want ⁓ anything that is programmed or associated with the program to have a particular standard, I guess. how do you how do you manage that, you know, or is that even an issue? Ashley Shak-Penn: So that is something we're anticipating. I think it was a really big fear we had last year or the designers had on the board because it was the first year that we were really opening it up to everyone. ⁓ but we had that decision that it was like if you want to open up and maximize your impact. There's some you know oversight you're gonna have to release essentially. But what we decided for this year was that we told all of the members if you pay and you're a member and you're trying to do an event, we will work with you to get you to that minimum standard or whatever to then be included in the show. And usually that's like an aesthetic thing, usually or not an aesthetic thing but like a visuals thing. So we have one of our members or one of our the people we work with who we've paid just over the years has been ⁓ a graphic designer. You know, so it's like if all of their content looks really good and everything, then that will ensure that people will come, they'll pay and everything like that. ⁓ Their own creative You know, what they want to actually create in their show again is completely up to them. But we just want to make sure that we're all at the same standard of like access for people to like know where you can get tickets, know where what the show is about and stuff like that. So that's where we're really offering our help and we've really committed to doing that. So we say that now and it's probably gonna be a month from now, just like more twelve hour days of helping people. But you know, that's why you get in this line of work. Danielle: Exactly. ⁓ long long days and long longer nights. And is the sustainability aspect like core to those applications? Do d you know, do people have to consider it? ⁓ you know, is it ⁓ or is it just a given that they will consider it? Ashley Shak-Penn: It definitely is. So in our membership application, we actually have our core values and we have them agree to them before, you know, they can be approved and they pay for it. So one of the core values is sustainability. I think that is also, you know, in the independent fashion week, a lot of these designers have the ability to be more sustainable because they use upcycle fabrics or dead stock fabrics. They're able to at its core do like a slow fashion production. They're not doing massive amounts being made. ⁓ And stuff like that. So sustainability definitely is one of our cores. We're also applying to a bunch of different sustainability funds right now because ideally we would love to be Ireland's first low waste or zero-waste, you know, fashion week. But in order to do that, of course, you need a huge capital investment to get things like reusable infrastructure, to get things like you know, glass instead of plastic. And within those sustainability funds, I've also said that I would love to be able to give small grants to different. Designers who want to become sustainable, but again, they don't have that money. At the end of the day, they're an emerging designer. They want the best show they can get to attract press and buyers. You know, if it's a sustainability thing, maybe they can't afford it, they won't do it. But if we can provide them that money to be able to do it, it's something they don't have to worry about. They can focus on their craft and we can give them that support to become sustainable. But again, all of that costs so much money. So we're looking for sponsors, we're looking for partners in the sustainability space where we can able to achieve. that circularity goal for our events. Danielle: Great. So shout out to anyone in that space that wants to support an incredible independent fashion week and yeah, get involved and and get in touch. And but I suppose from your own, like you've got such a ⁓ vast experience ⁓ of different contexts and different industries. ⁓ is there something from your previous experience that ⁓ you're looking to implement in Dublin Independent Fashion Week? Is there anything that you're kind of saying, ⁓ I this worked really well in the UN or or wherever and I'd like to kind of bring that to this Ashley Shak-Penn: I think what everyone has said that I'm very good at and I like to do is creating systems really that run really smoothly. ⁓ and so, you know, that's why I was great at starting these accelerators. I had I was given all the content and the curriculum and was like, okay, how can we make this into a program? So I'm great at doing those systems of creating the applications, creating the outreach, creating the running of the programs, all those logistics. I did the same thing in the startup system here with Dog Patch, and I'm doing the same thing with Fashion Week here. It's like We have again all these brilliant ideas. Every other day I'll get a text message from a board member being like, ⁓ my god, there's this amazing opportunity. But then it'll just lay there the ether if nothing happens. So it's my job to then come in and be like, okay, how can we put rules on this? How can we put order to this? How can we make sure that again that I that idea goes from zero to actually one or to a hundred, you know? So it's what I love doing. ⁓ and I didn't realize, I thought everyone liked doing that, but I found out, especially in this world, that people a lot of people are just ideas people and they're not the operations people. I think I go more on the operations side. I can identify a good idea, but I don't know, I just don't have. Danielle: Yeah, but it's so true. Like, I mean, lots of people can have lots of ideas, but ⁓ it's it's actually someone taking those, taking the bat on like yourself and actually doing them, the implementation. And that's the bit that ⁓ always gets let down. So like skills are so fundamental to an organization where ⁓ there ⁓ are so many people excited by this and ⁓ you know, really wanting wanting to get involved in it, but actually haven't got the time ⁓ or capacity to run with the ideas and make them happen. And then someone like yourself can come along and you know look at all these great ideas that are proposed, but then actually say, well strategically this one and this one is where it's gonna work best for us, you know. So that's ⁓ a huge part of your skill set ⁓ that they're really ⁓ they're really ⁓ going to value over the next few years as you kind of develop. the Dublin Independent Fashion Week into whatever it's going to become. ⁓ So I look forward to kind of seeing everything, all the twists and turns that you take. So we've spoken about the talent directory and the membership portal and ⁓ the potential of some professional development. Is there anything else in the pipeline that you can tell us about for the Fashion Week? Ashley Shak-Penn: ⁓ I think let's see. I'm trying to think what I can say. Danielle: Yeah. Ashley Shak-Penn: ⁓ I'd say we know we have some pretty exciting, I mentioned it before, but we have some pretty exciting venue like official collaborations coming up this year for Fashion Week. Again, we're trying to align ourselves with a lot of established institutions around Ireland and around Dublin that are seen even by public bodies, but also just the public in general as businesses that you know are art that get funding and stuff like that. So we're super honored to be, you know, working with those organizations. Organizations. So I'd say that's what we're super excited for. That hasn't been announced yet. ⁓ and that will be accessible by that signature paying tier for members. So yeah, excited for that. We've again applied for a bunch of funding that you know how these things work. We'll probably start hearing from them in the next couple months and everything. But ideally, once we're able to secure that funding, we'll be able to expand beyond just that week into a year-long thing of of events and stuff. So when we have that year-long programmatic schedule, then we'll also then be hiring program managers, program development and stuff like that. So it's just growing the business, growing the impact, and growing the team. Danielle: Sounds like a really exciting time to be part of Dublin Independent Fashion Week. So, because the podcast is called Rough Drafts, I always end with an idea or what is your next rough draft? So it could be some a project that you maybe feels unresolved or something that you've been circling back to but you haven't had the time ⁓ to to maybe make it happen. Is there anything that you would consider your a r something that's in rough draft? Aft mode for you right now. Ashley Shak-Penn: Yes. I that's actually something one of my lecturers basically told me. She was like, Ashley, you need to be more comfortable with the unknown. She's like, you always just try and finish things. So It's an interesting question. But ⁓ I've been working on something with one of my close classmates from the degree. ⁓ we're launching a knitwear brand that's really combining the Irish heritage of knitwear, even just like the design and everything, some of the materials, with the Mongolian side. So my classmate is Mongolian, and of course, there's all the beautiful yak fibers there, all the cashmere fibers. So what I've been doing over the last couple months is experimenting, mixing and blending. Those cashmere fibers and yak down with Irish wool and seeing what kind of fibers we can come through with them, seeing then what kind of like garments we can create, and then of course, trying to sell that here. So that's something that we're really focusing on. I think with my experience in the startup space, it's been helpful. I also work with a good shout studio at Hensteeth on supply chain and everything, so that's been really good training. And of course, working with Fashion Week and working with all the designers, knowing what they're up against, knowing what their barriers are. are all of that has come together into this own little like passion project of myself and my classmates. So ideally hopefully we can launch that maybe sometime next year. But that's yeah, what's another that's like after my five to nine, nine to five. My lunch break stuff. Danielle: Watch this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a side side hustle. But ⁓ I look forward to seeing ⁓ that collection and it's really it it's I suppose it'll give you a really first hand insight into what the fashion designers that you're trying to support are actually going through, what it feels like for them. ⁓ you know, trying to launch a collection and and trying to, you know, fund it, get time for it and all those all those things that are so important. ⁓ but yeah, I'm dying to see that when it comes out. Ashley Shak-Penn: Exactly. Danielle: Ashley, thank you so much for taking time out of what sounds like an incredibly busy schedule. ⁓ it's been a wonderful conversation and I'm like I'm literally sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what's next. Every time I see, you know, the socials go up. ⁓ there just seems to be so much energy around ⁓ the Fashion Week and I am just thrilled that it's happening in Ireland, in Dublin, ⁓ in particular. So I can't wait to see the events. So do you want to just give a final just Ashley Shak-Penn: Yeah. Danielle: ⁓ shout out to some of those deadlines for the ⁓ the ⁓ involvement and then when the event itself is going to take place. Ashley Shak-Penn: Course, yeah. So our website is live now, so it's Dublin-ifw.com. You can go on there, learn more about the different memberships, how to get involved. The membership applications are open right now. If you become a member, you have access to our talent directory, the first of its kind in Ireland, and then also you have the ability to then submit an event to be part of the official DIFW26 week. That week of events is going to run from September 10th to 16th. So we'll probably open up applications in about a month in July and yeah you'll be working very closely with myself and the team to create an event that will happen during that official week and we're very excited. Danielle: Right, mark your diaries everyone. Thank you so much. Thanks for appearing on Rough Drafts. Ashley Shak-Penn: Thank you.