Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 33, Season 1: The Dismissive Avoidant

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Episode 33, Season 1: The Dismissive Avoidant · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcomed the Dot podcast. I'm your co host Raina Richard
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: here with our host the Lovely Doctor Sarah and sleep.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: What's up?
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Well up?
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: So episode thirty three this week, Yes, and we are
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: going to talk about the dismissive.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Avoidant, the attachment style that literally everybody is obsessed, obsessed, obsessed.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Like my content on the DA does far better than
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: anything else. It blows up because obviously people that date das,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: which was me at one point, never dated one, are
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: very baffled and confused by them. But what's interesting is
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: there actually the most predictable, right of all the attachment styles.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: So I'm famous for saying, it's like they go to
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: dismissive avoidant University and get a diploma and dismissive avoidance
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: and they all operate by the same curriculum every right.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: It's almost scary how predictable they are. And so I
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: think it's people are confused by them if they haven't
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: encountered it before and they don't know what it is,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: especially because they're notorious for the baita and the switch
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: coming in sort of acting secure in the beginning of relationships.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: And I mean, really, if you look at how they
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: act in the beginning of relationships. It looks kind of
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: like vulnerability, but it's really more transparency, like they'll tell
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: you they're about their lives and things that have happened
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: to them, maybe that are painful, but real vulnerability is
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: talking about your emotions related to that pain and how
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: it made you feel. And dismissive avoidance will tell you
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: what happened, but they won't really reveal their feelings about it.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, this happened, right, it's really painful.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Thing happened to me, which is interesting because it's basically
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: what they do when they break things off with people's day.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, so start from the beginning, to start from the beginning.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: How is dismissive avoidance? Tell us the story of the
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's really two types of childhoods that will
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: form dismissive avoidance. One is I would say what I
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: see in about eighty five percent of my das and
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: my practice, which is they had a nuclear family, so
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: mom and dad stayed married. The individual with DA attachment
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: will say, my family was great, like my parents got
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: along great, like I was loved at a great childhood.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: They always say they have a great childhood, and they
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: will say that to their partners. But then what their
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: partners find out by sort of watching the family dynamics
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: as they're in relationship with this person is that their
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: parents are completely emotionally unavailable.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So that's usually.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: The number one cause of dismissive avoidance is having parents
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: that have high instrumental support.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: That means that they took.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Him to the football games and mom packed the lunches
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and you know, it was on the pta. Instrumental support
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: is where your parents are physically present and involved in
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: your life, but when it comes to emotions, the parents
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: are completely unattuned to the child. So when you think
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: about key attachment years being from about zero to five
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: years old, I like to give the example of like
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: maybe let's take maybe a two year old little boy
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: who is playing on the playground with his mom and
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: he falls down. He skins his knee and he sees
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: blood and he's like freaking out and he goes to
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: his mom and he's crying, you know, and he's scared,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: and the mom, if she's a distanceive avoided mom, would
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, you're fine, stop crying, Grab some dirt
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: on it, rab some dirt on it, walk it off,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: you know, you're fine, don't cry. It's just a dismissive response.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: And that's where the term dismissive avoidance comes from. We
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: dismiss the emotional experience of others when you're a dismissive avoidant.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: So the mom would very much shut down the emotions,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: not acknowledge the emotions of the child. And oftentimes these
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: parents providing this high instrumental support will focus on responsibility
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and achievement as the only ways that they do give
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: emotional responses that are positive to their children. So the
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: only emotional attunement they get, whatsoever, is either negative criticism
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: if they're not being responsible or achieving, or positive reinforcement
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: positive praise when they are being responsible and achieving.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: There's no emotional.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Attunement around complex emotions like fear or sadness or anything
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: that they might experience in life right that provokes those emotions.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Those are ignored that are normal correctly, that are completely normal.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: So really emotionally attuned mother with that two year old
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: would be like.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, buddy, you fell down. All that was scary, wasn't it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Does it hurt? Are you hurting? You know? Oh? I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: know it.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: You know blood is scary, and I know that hurts,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and it's okay to feel sad. You know we're going
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: to get you fixed up. Essentially, what that mother did
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: was just validate, like, hey, I see you or seen
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: you're heard or understood. I know that this hurts, and
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: actually expressing that emotion to me brings you to safety, right,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: it gets you safety. So what dismissive avoidance learned is
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: something totally different. They learned that my emotions are not welcome.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: They're actually bad to talk about. I will get maybe
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: even punished or rejected if I reveal my emotions, and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: so I have to internalize that by acknowledging that my
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: emotions are my problem only in my business only. And
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: then their main coping skill, because this is the child's
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: only coping skill, is to suppress and distract. So these
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: children grow up like pouring into television, or like playing
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: outside or really focusing heavy on schoolwork, anything they can
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: pour themselves into to distract from their own internal emotional experiences.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And so this suppression then carries forward into their adult
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: romantic relationships. And then in the beginning of relationships, we
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: have limerens and we have initial physical attraction that's sort
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: of boosting your connection and engagement. Chemicals like oxytocin and
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: suppress in for men, things like that, and so they're
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: really riding this just chemical wave in the beginning that's
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: allowing them to be more connected and more transparent. So
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: dismissive avoidance are famous for the I call it the
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: four to six month bait and switch. They show up
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: really well in the first four to six months of
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: a relationship, just long enough to really hook someone in
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: and to gain their attachment. And then once once they
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: have gained that person's attachment and they know they've that
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: they've attached or that their partner is attached to them,
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: that's when they're subconscious wounding around intimacy, commitment, vulnerability, meeting
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: people's expectations and relationships really start to shoot through the
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: roof those wounds, suppress the feelings, and then they go
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: into deactivation mode with a withdraw mode essentially, which is
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: they start to disengage inside of the relationship.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I see a lot of questions mainly
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: from fearful avoidance who are dating dismissive avoidance, of.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Course, because that's the most painful combo besides a narcissistic
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: abusive relationship.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: That's the most painful combination. I think one of the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: biggest questions is how do you know the difference? Right, Like, so,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: how do you know the difference if it's an actual
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant who's suppressing, or if it's just somebody who's
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: just not that into you.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: So people are going to be not that into you
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: in like the first month of connection. Right if you
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: ever pursued somebody for longer than a meant that you
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: weren't attracted to.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: No, right, you're not going to in the first couple
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: of days, you're gonna be like.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Not feeling this, right, And so six months down the
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: road is not when someone goes, you know what, I
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: just not attracted this person anymore. The feelings of not
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: being attracted are coming from their wounds, suppressing all of
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: the feelings that they had for the partner, Right, So
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: they're wounds around, like I don't want to have to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: be vulnerable at Like the four to six month mark
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: is when there is usually naturally a creation of more
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: expectation around meeting someone's needs in a relationship, right, Right,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like when the next level, it's the
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: next level, right, And they feel that coming on, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: they feel that pressure and they get freaked out and
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: they don't it's all subconscious. They have no idea that
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: this is happening.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: To them, right, They just feel icky. In fact, I
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: feel icky, right.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: And they're very very out of touch with their own
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: emotions because they've spent their whole life suppressing. So they
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: sort of rationalize their deactivation as like, I just don't
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: know if we're compatible. They start nitpicking their partner, like
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: little things that they don't like about their partner.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: And these are usually little.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Things that with any amount of effort, could be worked through, right, literally,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: any amount of effort, they could be worked through, but
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: they see them as these insurmountable incompatibilities. They convince themselves
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: that these are really really difficult compatibilities and it's just
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: quote not going to work.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Right. Another burning question that you get are people who
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: are in long term relationships with dismissive avoidance marriages, for example,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: where they want their partner to seek intervention and they
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: don't know how to get them there. I mean, this
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: question is probably on the daily. How do I get
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: how do I get my partner how do I get
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: my partner to do xiz. You can't.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: You cannot force control, stomp bag, plead your way into
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: getting somebody to do something.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: People are autonomous beings, right, and the really crappy thing
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: whatever whatever adjective, it's just crappy.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I can't think I can come up with a better
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: word than crappy.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: It's just the thing that sucks is that they have.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Such a deep wound of defectiveness, and that's born out
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: of having their emotions rejected. Because the little child, the
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: little again two year old child or three year old
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: child is looking around trying to understand intimacy, trying to
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: understand the world of connection, and they're like, oh wow,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: the people close to me, like they don't have these
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: big feelings that I have inside of me, So that
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: must mean there's something wrong with me, right, And then
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: when you're criticized over having emotion, then it really sort
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: of imprints that wound of defectiveness, like there must be
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: something wrong with me for even having feelings. So I'm
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: gonna do everything in my power to not have feelings, right, because.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: It's so that's really so good.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: And so then that develops wounds around criticism because when
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: a partner comes and brings their feelings to the dismissive
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: avoidance to them inside of their blueprint, it's like, well,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I must be really awful if you're bringing me feelings,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: because feelings are so bad, and you must be really
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: really really upset at me and think I'm a horrible
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: person if you're bringing me feelings, because that's just totally inappropriate, right, And.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: A lot of note I know, a lot of dismissive
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: avoidance too, are like extremely good providers, very like they
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: show a lot of their love through doing.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Their acts of services primarily how they show love and
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: usually acts of acts of service in terms of providing
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: through work work. So female dismissive avoidance will often really
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: use their kids as that distraction tool to.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Dissociate from their feelings for their partner.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Male dismissive avoidance often use work and hobbies as the
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: primary mechanism to keep them distracted and associated. So I've
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: yet to meet a dismissive avoidant that is not a
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: workaholic or hobby aholic, or if they're a stay at
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: home mom using their kids as their quote job to
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: maintain that distance. They have to have a buffer between
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: them and their partner.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about sex and intimacy with the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance for both female and male. Because an interesting
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: question that I got this week from one of your
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: followers was, you know, because we did a whole podcast
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: on why women won't have sex with their partners, but
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the question was why why will some men not have
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: sex with their partners? And so I think this relates
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: to the dismissive avoidance.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: So for the dismissive avoidant, often, not always, but often,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, they are, of course not everything's one hundred
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: percent predictable, and there are small nuances in the attachment
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: style I mean, but I would say compared to the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: other attachments, the dismissive avoidance is the most predictable.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: But for a lot of.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Dismissive avoidance, sex becomes just another relationship expectation, and that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel good because again, they're so motivated excuse me
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: to preserve their own autonomy inside of relationships, and so
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: if I have to give you this part of myself,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: then it's just another need I have to write.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Plus, I mean, sex and intimacy is really vulnerable it's
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: very vulnerable. Now.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: On the other hand, there are usually the men, So
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I see that a lot in women, and I see
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: it in a big chunk of men dismissive avoidance as well.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But there's i'd say a smaller minority of dismissive avoidant
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: men who they still really want a sexual connection because
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: to them it fulfills any connection need that they do have.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: And then they can be completely void of emotional intimacy
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: because to them, the sexual intimacy sort of fulfills their
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: really tiny intimacy bucket.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Right, all right, there's still it's like, okay, the box
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: is checked, and I can still feel some.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Connection, some connection there, right, And then they get into
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: the cycle where where their partner is being denied emotional intimacy.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Their partner doesn't feel emotionally safe, so then their partner
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to have sex with them, and then they're
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: all baffled like why right, Like I do all these
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: great things, I go to work, I make all this money,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I do this, and dismissive avoidance are profoundly unaware of
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: their avoidance. They have very very very low EQ and
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: low levels of mentalization and low levels of awareness.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: And talk about like I know that you've mentioned in
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: the past, Like I forget how you put it, like
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: they they don't have the voice in their head. Yeah.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: What's interesting is like, so.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: There's some research out there that not everybody has a
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: stream of consciousness or an internal voice. Like when you think,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: do you hear your own voice in your head? I
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: do all the time constantly when I never shut up. Okay,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: if you are an FA, the voice inside of your
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: head will never ever stop it, right, And so but
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: for the DA they often like the very severe days,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: and I've definitely seen it. I don't have the science
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: on this, I just have seen it in my personal practice,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: So I can't say for sure.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: That this is really the world's truth. Right.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: But the more severe das don't have an internal stream
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: of consciousness. They think abstractly in the form of concepts and.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: So like that.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: So they if they looked in the mirror, they couldn't
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: say hello to themselves inside their head in the mirror.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: It's not possible.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, there's like this abstract concept that Okay, I'm looking
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: at myself and I would like to say hello, but
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: the actual words aren't being heard in their own head. Interesting,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: wouldn't that be crazy? To not fear a voice in
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: your head?
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Would be almost a break, right like this? Can you
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: imagine the stillness? Ah, sounds peaceful, sounds like I'd probably
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: see you're so peaceful. Yeah, And they can because.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: They live their lives primarily in a functional free state.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And functional freeze can be either like this mixed state
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: of activation and a sympathetic response, basically going into fight
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: or flight and being quote unquote on or then shutting
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: down and being quote unquote off. So there's no middle
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: ground of regulation. There's just either I'm on, and that's
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: usually like in work when they're accomplishing and they're doing
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: they're just really on and they're in a fight or
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: flight state. But then in sort of their personal life
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: they go up into this freeze response, which is dissociation
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: numbness checked out.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And I can't say I've never experienced that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I actually have as an FA, like I've checked out before.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean fas have had the ability to compartmentalize
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: and associate too, but the dismiss it that what it
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: can do it for longer, and they can do it
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: for like more intensely. It can kind of be their
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: way of living where the FFA is popping in and
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: out of flight freeze, you know, fonn They can just
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: be all over the map in terms of what their
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: nervous system is doing.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: For the DA, it's very predictable.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: It's usually fight to freeze or flight to freeze, and
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: during conflict they'll do either one. Sometimes they go fond
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: to freeze, which is over apologizing. So most of my das,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: like I said, had a nuclear child or had a
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: nuclear family, had what they report as a good childhood.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: A smaller minority.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I would probably guess around fifteen percent of das that
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I see had very early and very severe trauma with
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: absolutely no support through that trauma. So we're talking very
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: severe childhood trauma like in the first five years of life,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: like being sexually abused, to where the trauma was so
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: massive to the brain that the childlike brain absolutely could
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: not process it and was forced to shut down to
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: protect themselves against these big emotions that would have just
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: made them collapse.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And then when you have no parental support, like maybe
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: parents find out and they don't put them in therapy,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: or maybe the parents are the abusive ones, you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to be sexual abuse. It could
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: be physical abuse, you know, severe emotional abuse, or it
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: could be you know, a parent dying really early, you
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: know which something my daughter Lexi had to go through
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: and her dad died when she was three. She does
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: not show signs of being dismissive avoidant, thank goodness. But
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: it can happen, right, It's not always the case where
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: they have this amazing child.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was coaching, I had a specific
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: client who'd had a substantial amount of trauma at a
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: very young age. Yeah, and he was dismissive avoidant. But
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I always kind of struggled on and I kind of like,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: you know, rode the fence on what whther he was
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: FA or DA. But he didn't have that big like
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: reactivity you know, ye trait.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Usually for those folks, they have like a little bit
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: of the FA in them, right, Like these boxes are
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: not completely perts.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: They are pretty good.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we can sort of put the majority of
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: people inside one of.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: These four attachment boxes.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Secure, dismissive avoidant, fearful avoidant, anxious, preoccupied.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: But they're they're pretty close to each.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Other, right, I Mean there's some enmeshment between those boxes
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: or among those boxes, I should say, all right.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about intervention because and let's start with dating. Okay,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: So scenario I'm dating a dismissive avoidant, we're at the
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: four to six month mark, and they start to pull away,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Get the hell out of there. Okay, that that one's easy.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Get yeah, the hell out of there.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, get out, because you are dealing with such a
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: quote fixer upper whose chips are missing for true intimacy.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: It's not that the chips can't be built, but they
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: have to be built by the person who wants them
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: to be built. They have to The dismissive avoidant has
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: to acknowledge and understand their own patterns in order to
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: seek the resources to change. And because they are so
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: sensitive to criticism and so sensitive to feedback about themselves
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: that may not be positive, they reject any and all
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: feedback about themselves. So they are the least of the
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: attachment styles to take accountability, the least likely to take
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: any accountability for their behavior. Like the mental gymnastics that
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a dismissive avoidant will do to avoid accountability inside of
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: a relationship is profound.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And it's just because they don't know how.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: They don't know how they get stuck on their own
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: shame wound. As soon as they start to self reflect,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: they hit shame, and shame is such a torturous emotion,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: and if all emotions are difficult for them, the most
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: tortuous one is surely going to be suppressed. Right, So
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: they they start to reflect, hit their shame wound, and
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: then they suppress and be like, no, I can't deal
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: with this right now, right whatever, This was just a
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: suppress and distract, suppress and distract, suppress and distract. So
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: it's just not worth the effort of trying to be
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: so so secure that you could somehow like secure people
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: wouldn't put up with it, right because it's just not
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: going to feel good, And a secure person inherently has
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: the self worth to be like, well, you're not giving
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: me enough, and so therefore I'm okay with the detachment.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Even if you are six months, because I know, if
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: to a lot of you, six months is a long time.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: It is a long time most of the time that
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: you know I love you has been exchanged, right.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: And we don't like detaching from things that we've invested in.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: That's across the board characteristic of humans. Once we've invested
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: in something, we don't want to leave that investment behind.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: We don't like to cut our losses. And what securely
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: attached individuals tend to do is in that situation at
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the six month mark, when the DA starts backing away,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the question.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: They ask is, man, what's wrong with them? Yeah?
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: What do insecure people ask? What's wrong with me?
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Right? Why don't they love me? Once they like me?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Why don't they give me more? Secure people go, oh,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with them?
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Right? I'm awesome, you know, like I'm a good person.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I know, like I have a lot of contribute, I
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: know my worth and this isn't it? Like this lack
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: of effort doesn't work for me, and not in a
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: narcissistic way.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: No, But secure people are just like, no, I what
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for? Really?
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I don't really like this level of disconnection that doesn't
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: work for me. So I think we're just not compatible.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: And secure people are comfortable being they are, So it's
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: like the detachment doesn't feel like this huge loss because
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: they understand and they're comfortable saying, oh, well, being alone
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: is just as awesome.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I'm just walking back into this really great relationship I
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: have with myself exactly, and I can stand that, right,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and I can tolerate that, and that's actually somewhat enjoyable.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: But they have a healthy, wanted need for intimacy and connection.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: They're not like just a loner, right, Like the da
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: can be right, thedas can be loners. I mean, they
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: can go a very long time. I have clients that
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: go fifteen twenty years in between relationships, and they don't
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: recognize that that's sort of not really a healthy pattern
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to be, like really enjoying your aloneness for fifteen full years.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: We're built for love and intimacy and secure people.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: They don't. They take an appropriate.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Amount of time to greet the loss, focus on the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: relationship to self, meeting their own needs, getting back in
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: to the groove of standing on their own two feet.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And then you know when when they've processed the emotions,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: because they're good at fully processing their emotions and integrating
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: experiences into their nervous systems, then they're ready to move
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: on in three like three maybe three months.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And that's when they find the right partner, right. But
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: they're willing to They're willing to walk away from the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: wrong one. It's basically what happened to you and I,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: which I promised myself, I wasn't going to talk too
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: much about our personals.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Oh you know what, the one person that gave you
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the bad review that said you talked too much about
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: your experiences.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Sorry, We're sorry. Maybe we're just not for you. We're
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: gonna we're gonna do it hard not to talk about
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: our personal lives. We're going to be authentic and we're
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: not for everybody. And that's okay because we're secure and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: we can handle the fact that we're not, you.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Know, for everyone's right. And you know what, I will
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: say this, whoever left the reviews, she's like, this comes
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: from a place of love, which I appreciate. Okay, but
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: we're going to consider it, willing to consider it. Absolutely.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: We're not going to get rid of our own personal
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: stories completely, right.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Right, And but I think I did. I think Mark
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and Billie both may have been DA's for sure. Which
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: are the two guys they were classic? Yes, which are
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: the two guys I dated before I found Josh And
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: they didn't take me long. Mark was five months, Billy
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: was like three. Because it was like Mark and it's
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: crazy that only dated Mark for five months. It felt
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: longer than that.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: It did because he did what das do, which is
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: like jump all in and act like a total DA
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: and withdraw and he was.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: A good guy.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a good Dismissive avoidance are quote unquote
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: good people, Like, they're not evil, malicious, narcissistic. So many
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: times on my videos, people are like, dismissive avoidance are narcissism.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, they're not. That's a completely fearful avoidance.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Fearful avoidance is much closer to a narcissist. And
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I say that with all the love in my heart
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: because I used to be one.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: But it's true. It is true.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Fearful avoidance are manipulative. They can low blow, they can
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: be super toxic when they fight, just like narciss do.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Very reactive, very reactive. And then Billy was just so
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: short lived.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Of course that like because you were just like, no,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not putting up with this. Yeah yeah, I was
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: like just like this for me, And that's when I
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: really saw you. I was like, wow, she's stepping into
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: that like security and I wasn't even fully secure myself.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: And I was kind of jealous, like good for you,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: yeah for detaching from.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: That and that and hopefully Josh doesn't listen to this one.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: He won't, but really hurt man Like Mark, I saw
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the writing on the wall and I was like, yeah,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: you gotta go, dude. Yeah. And even though Billy was
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: very short lived, I was just into him, you know,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: like he was magnetic. He was very magnetic and he
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: like he he had that just kind of like jock,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: like just cute, cute smile, like funny, you know, all
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: the things that a DA kind of like pulls you
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: in with. They got a workaholic. Their das can be
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: very charismatic.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: They usually have a good humor because they use humor
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: to deflect from vulnerability. So they've gotten really good at
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: being like witty and they're good at banter. And I
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: mean not all DA's, but a lot of them are
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of them have learned use humor as a
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: deflection from vulnerability. So that can be Your DA was
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the same, Oh gosh, because you didn't have a serious
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: conversation without him inserting a joke. And it would it
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: would make me mad because you could never get past it.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: You could never get past that wall, and it was.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: It was very, very frustrating, And yours was a little
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: bit different because y'all y'all dated for like a year
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: and a half off and on.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I mean it was always off and on, you know,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and then there were breakups in that year and a
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: half period, right, I mean, no, we never knew if
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: we were on or off. And I tried to explain
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: this to Donald the other day because he was not
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: the other day. Maybe it was a couple of weeks ago.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: He was like, Okay, I just I've heard you say
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: kind of contradictory things about your ex, and like, so,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: did he break up with you or did you break
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: up with him?
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, I don't even know. I have no idea.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, we got in a fight. He stopped
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: talking to me for a couple of weeks. Then I
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: changed my Facebook status. Then we had a talk and
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I thought we were getting back together, and then my
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: mom got diagnosed with cancer that night, and then he
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: totally changed his tune. But then he kept talking to
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: me and being like I'm not getting sweet and loving
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: to me. Like, I can't tell you who broke up
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: with you. I don't nobody knows I don't think. I
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: don't even know if he knows. I don't know.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe it just fizzled. It just kind of did.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: But that was every single time it was, it was
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: like nope, we didn't know. You got yeah, because he
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: would do the ghosting thing.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I really did tell him at
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: one point, like just leave her alone, dude, you did,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I did. Heard talked about that. Yeah, we did. And
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: you know, let's talk talk about breadcrumbing, because it's a
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: notorious trait of the deal.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I think they're a notorious trait. They just have such
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: a small intimacy bucket and need for connection that once
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: they start this deactivating process, they will either try to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: create a situationship if they can. That's their absolute ultimate
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: perfect situation is like, oh, I get to use you
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: for validity when I want, and I get to get
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: some connection from you, but I don't have to have
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: any rules around attachment, so I can also go talk
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: to anybody else or have my own time and be autonomous.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: And if they don't, if they really you know, a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: lot of dismissive avoidance end up getting married because they
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: sort of know it's the appropriate thing to do. Like
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: from society standards, and they want to fit within those standards,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: so they're not in it and getting married because they're
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: truly like feeling in love. They're not so sad, they're
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: feeling obligated. And I swear so many of them have
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: told me, I knew when I got married I shouldn't have.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I knew I was doing it out of obligation instead
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: of true feelings, because they had deactivated and associated from
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: their true feelings. And that's the crazy thing. When they heal,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: like inside of a marriage, when they heal, their true
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: feelings from their partners start to bubble up and rise.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: And if they tolerate, yeah, oh gosh.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: It's one of the best things to watch when I
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: see a dismissive avoidant. And I could I mean, of course,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to give anybody's name, but I could
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: think of five six seven right off off the just
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: the back of my hand that I saw transform from
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: people that were totally disconnected from their emotions, totally thinking
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: they were like it's time for divorce. Yeah, and then
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: they did the work and then they're like, oh my gosh,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: like I want my partner, I crave my partner, like
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I want to tell my partner things like I can
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: talk like when they tell me things like it, I
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: actually feel connected and loved and like I've never felt
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: this in my life.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: That's huge, Like they were robbed about their entire life. Yeah,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and it's so sad, like I have like in my
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: own body, in my own mind, I have no frame
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: of reference to what that feels like to not feel
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: love and connection and to not like know what it
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: feels like to yearn for it too. So it's I'm
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: no wonder they're so fascinating and people are so fascinated
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: by them because the majority of people have some level
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: of consciousness around Okay, I really just want like there's
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: a human need for action.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most people, pretty much everybody but the day and
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: maybe then excluding personality disorders and other variables. The majority
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: of people, so the anxious, preoccupied, the fearful, and the secure,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: they understand true whom you need for connection and they
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: feel it now. The fearful disconnect from it. The anxious
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: preoccupied can never disconnect from it. The DA is always
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: disconnected from it. After a certain point, AP can pretend,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: he can pretend. Yeah. Yeah, And what's really sad too,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: is are the most likely to cheat.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that, because I want to know they're.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Much more likely to cheat than the other attachment styles,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: which is another reason why I say, if you're dating one,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: to just get out of there. If you don't have kids,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: you don't have ties, you don't have financial ties, like
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: make the clean break, because they just get worse over time.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: They do not get better over time. They get worse
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: over time.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And that is an absolute, pretty scientific fact that is
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: demonstrated heavily in the science.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unless there's intervention.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Unless there's intervention, right, that they find on their own
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: that they generally not forced into, or their partner has
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: set a hard enough boundary and has ended the relationship
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: or marriage, and that feeling of loss, like so the
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: fears of commitment, meeting people's expectations, losing their autonomy, et cetera.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Are attached to their high stakes partner, attached to their
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: long term partner. So when long term partner goes away,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: oftentimes when they're at the brink of like, no, we're
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: getting divorced, or they start to initiate a divorce oftentimes,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: so the fears go with them, right, So attached to
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the partner so when you remove the fears, then the
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: feelings are allowed to come up. And so loss is
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: actually one of the only things I've ever seen motivated
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: DA to do the work, which is why I tell
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: people to hold strict boundaries with the DA, because the
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: boundary they subconsciously super respect boundaries because they have such
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: strong boundaries. So when you assert a boundary, they actually
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: see that as attractive. Now that's subconscious.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Maybe they'll hymn haw about it and not like it
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: because they're used to you being boundaryless, but it actually
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: raises their attraction for you because they're like, okay, wait,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: you can hold you on your own two.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Feet, right, and I'm not totally responsible for your emotion, right,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Absolutely good to me. Absolutely yeah. So in terms of
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: why the DA cheats, yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I mean it's to further distract and associate. And sometimes
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: it comes up when what little bit of desire for
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: real human connection they have starts to peek through. Remember,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: they can be vulnerable in the beginning, or at least
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: transparent in the beginning, so they can go off with
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: new partner and it accomplishes a couple of things. One,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: it puts a further wedge between them and high stakes partner,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: where who they're being triggered by, right, the intimacy with
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: high stakes partner, the expectations from high stakes partner triggers
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: them greatly, so they can sort of escape and get
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: with new partner, get into those feelings of limerens get
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: the dopamine.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Dumps have some vulnerability.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: It's like letting off the steam of this pent up
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: need for vulnerability that they won't let themselves address or
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: they can't get in touch with because they're suppressing. They
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: dump it out with a new partner, and then they.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Blow up their relationship.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I'm actually coaching a client right now where this is
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: exactly the case, and it's heartbreaking. And I've coached many
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: clients that have done the cheating and those that have
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: been on the other side of the cheating, and unfortunately
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: das just don't understand themselves well enough to do the
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: work it would take to not cheat again. Which is
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: another reason why I'm very, very pro leaving after cheating,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: because you have to understand if.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Someone has a.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Long term sexual relationship outside of their marriage with someone else,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: do you understand the insane amount of compartmentalization that takes
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: to live those two lives. I can't imagine most people,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: their conscience would eat them alive. Their conscience would not
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: allow them to step into a different relationship and be
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: one person, and step out of that relationship and then
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: go into the marriage and be a totally different person.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: And that level of compartmentalization is so dysfunctional that it
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: almost in some cases, not in all cases.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: In some cases.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: It's too close to psychopathy for me. It's too close
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: to sociopathy because those people can compartmentalize wholly and fully
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: to the point where they can harm people right, really
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: really harm people right, like kill people right. Yeah, and
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: then we're talking along the lines of more anti social
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: personality disorder and things like that.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: But anyhow, it's too close for It's not that right,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: but it's just too close. It's too close to it
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And so I don't want to be with someone who
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: has a capability of completely turning off their feelings for
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: me and turning on their feelings for someone else and
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: then feeling very little guilt. Yeah, and about there are
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: until they get caught.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I know, there are those circumstances where there's a very
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: emotionally neglected partner you know that just feels very void,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: like there's nothing there with the marriage partner to where
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: they stray. And I mean that's a different scenario, of course,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: but and I'm not excusing it by any means saying
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that it's okay, right, But I do know that when
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: you're not getting any emotional connection and you're yearning for it,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: you know. I mean I remember coaching and there would
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: be people that would say like that they hadn't had
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: sex with their partner in like years years.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand, But at that point, again, the question
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: has to be what is going on with you that
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: you are tolerating that there is always an option to
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: leave a relationship if instead of cheating, because if you
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: if you're worried about the impact on the kids, you
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: don't think your kids are going to be impacted when
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the affair eventually gets found out, because let's face it,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: most of the time, it always does, does it always does?
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: You know, even if it doesn't, even if it doesn't
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: get found out when it's happening, Yeah, even down there,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: eventually it comes out. Yeah.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are affairs my ex had that
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't find out.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Till after he was dead.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I still found out and I probably haven't
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: found out about all of them.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: But I'm still finding out secrets about my ex too.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I found one out a couple months ago, but I
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: was like, what at this point, it's just tea. It's like, right, yeah,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it's just tea. It doesn't hurt anymore. No, absolutely not.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: But there is no way on earth if Donald cheated
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: on me that I would go back to him.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Now, not a chance. It would be still had a
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: character too, So it's.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Like it would be it would I would basically have
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: to reconcile that I never knew this.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Person, right, And that's I think the difference because I know,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I've said, we've had this conversation before and we haven't
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: always agreed because I've said, well, you know, I learned,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: you know with my ex that you know, cheating wasn't
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: the worst thing you could do to me, but for
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Josh and me, it would be because it would be
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: the worst because our relationship is our foundation is so strong,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: right like our found My foundation with my ex was
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: never strong. So it was like all kinds of things
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: were happening that were dysfunctional and messed up, and so
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: it was like, oh, cheating, that's please, that's nothing compared
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: to what you've done to.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Me, right, And I know when you've been in a really,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: really abusive relationship, And that's probably why I stayed through affairs,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: because it's like, cheating wasn't the worst thing me right, right,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So it's like, well, if I had to rank it, yeah, actually,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: rather you cheat on me than do these other horrible right.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: But I am just not about that anymore. No, I
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: am not about because here's the reality of a situation
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: with cheating. Nobody ever fully gets over it. I don't
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: care who says they do. I don't care who says
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: their relationship is stronger afterwards. You tell me that you're
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: not thinking sometime and wondering what they might be doing.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And that's just a little voice.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to live with, even if it's just
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: a little voice, even if you've repaired it to the
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: point where it's just the little voice, the little voice
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: of the devil that says, what are they doing by
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: my back?
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with that voice. Right, that
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: voice is already it still exists, just to eat like
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: a tiny, tiny, tiny eensy weensy bit, right, occasionally, like
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: doubt will still creep into my mind, right, Like I'll
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: have like just these very fleeing moments of like I
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: wonder if like yeah, even though like it's completely out
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of character for Josh. Okay, let me just be very clear.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I am confident that my husband would never cheat on me.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: He is the most moral upstac he will he is
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: a boy scout guys, he will always do the right thing. Yeah,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: he is the most morally just person I've ever.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I feel like the right boot because it's just the
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: right thing. They are both that way, even when no
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: one's looking, They're going to do the right thing.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: My my thoughts are solely my problem and not Josh's. Right,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: So there's that's still that little tiny ounce, like tiny
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: percentage of doubt where I'm like, well, what, like wood,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: he would he ever do that? And then it's fleeing, right,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: But I know that if he did it, would.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: You'd have that they would be a yell in your
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: brain every day, it would be doing I lived that
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: life of never knowing what someone was doing behind, right,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and that's what I would do, yes, And I was
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: It was like if if I had to be in
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: a relationship where that voice was really strong, now that
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I'm securely attached, it simply wouldn't feel worth it because
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: it would rob me of so much peace and so
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: much presence.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, And it's because someone demonstrated that they're
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: not trustworthy, right, And the science shows that it really
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: takes two years of consistent behavior to earn back somebody's trust.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: And I don't want to go through two years of
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: having someone having to prove themselves to me.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, you know.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: I believe that the science is strong enough to show
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: if there's one securely attached parent and that parent can
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: do the right things, that kids will be okay through divorce.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And it's much more about how a divorce is handled
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: then whether a divorce takes place. That's the nuance of
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the science. I'll stand by that. I'll die on that hill.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: I would rather two people divorce and be really great
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: co parents than be in a dysfunctional relationship. I mean,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: that's just me, and I think that the science, it's
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: pretty clear on it. It's much more about how the
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: divorce is handled than if there is a divorce, And
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: so I want people to take heart. You know, there's
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: so many people out there that just don't want to
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: leave because of their kids that are in these super
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: neglectful relationships with das. And so to go back to
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: your question of like, how do you seek intervention? One,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: you can leave and set it as a boundary of reconciliation. Right,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: it's not a punishment, no, it's a rule of re engagement.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Boundaries come with rules of re engagement. And your rule
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: of re engaging with me in a relationship is you
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: have to get help for this. And they don't usually
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: take that very well, but oftentimes if the loss feels
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: big enough, they will, and sometimes that is just the
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: catalyst they need to be to start becoming more self aware.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: And then that can be a real snowball effect. Once
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: they get some level of self awareness and they get
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: in front of the right person that has the right strategies,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: which I'm confident that I do because I've done it
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: and I've seen it work, so I'm confident that I do,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: then they can really make changes. But they tank in therapy.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Therapy is usually a terrible idea, and that's usually people's
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: first choice is therapy. And I don't want to dis therapists,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: but you're literally putting the DA in the very situation
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: that shuts.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Them down, which is processing.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Processing, putting them on the spot to be vulnerable, having
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: to try to make sense of their feelings, having to
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: make your feelings. That's why my group does, That's why
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: they do so good in my group, because they can
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: just sit there and listen and they learn from They
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: learn by listening, they learn from other people, and then
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: in they micro dose it.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I have it set up so fabulous for them to
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: micro dose because they can only tolerate a little bit
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: of it at a time. Anything emotional, anything talking about emotions,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: anything talking about how they could be accountable or wrong.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: They have to micro dose it. And that's exactly what
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: I do for them. And I've gotten really good feedback.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of feedback from people, you know, clients,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I mean really just your content right when you when
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: you talk about the DA and and so there is hope, right,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: there's hope. And if you know, if you're looking for
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: hope with your dismissive avoidant partner, obviously, like doctor Hinsley said,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: you can't get them in the group mat right, You
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: can't necessarily force them, but you can set boundaries. You
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: can start setting those boundaries. And another great tool that
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: I remember you gave when I was coaching was, you
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: know a lot of times partners of das will you
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: know you're doing a lot for your partner, whether that's
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: like small task of like packing their lunch, or you know,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: just the little things that you do every day for them.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: And this is not protest behavior, it's not This is
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: behavior saying, hey, I can no longer self abandon at
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: the expense of my needs not being met, right, so
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I have to take more time to do more things
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: for me. Yes.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Essentially, das can't co regulate. So in a healthy relationship,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: we need self regulation, we need coregulation. They're hyper self
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: regulators through suppression, and then they refuse to coregulate with
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: their partner, which is soothing of their partner. So both
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: people should be responsible for soothing themselves and then coming
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: together and soothing each other. That is how repair happens
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: in our relationship. And so they feel like like coregulation
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: is just so out of their wheelhouse that they want
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: their partner to go hyper self regulate just like them
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: and then come back together as if nothing happened, so
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: that they never have to deal with the conflict, right,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: because that was the paradigm in their house when they
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: were growing up. And so when someone doesn't offer you
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: co regulation and you are just learning how to self regulate,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: because the flip side of that is anybody that's in
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: the anxious space really struggles to self regulate. They want
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: coregulation above self regulation. We need to have both.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: And we sort of need to have both equally.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Self regulation usually has to come first because two disregulated
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: people can't regulate each other. Right, So if you can
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: self regulate first and then come to the table and
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: provide the code, regulation and the soothing to your partner,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: that is the ultimate goal. But if your partner can
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: give you no coregulation, then the only person responsible for
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: your nervous system is you. And then when you are
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: trying to self regulate and meet your own needs because
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: they're not meeting your needs, and then you're also trying
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to meet all their needs, you're pouring from an empty cup.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Your nervous system is going to snap in half and
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: you're going to have a meltdown of some form. Right,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: it's just a matter of time. Whether that be a
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: physical illness, whether that be a decline in your mental health,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: it's going to happen. And so setting that boundary is
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: not a protest and saying well, you don't do for me,
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to do for you. No, it's saying that, hey,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I'm being profoundly neglected here, and since you're unwilling to
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: offer me any support to my nervous system, the only
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: person left to care for me is me. So I'm
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: gonna have to take a little bit of a step
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: back and refocus on myself until I get my footing
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: again and I can decide and I feel strong enough
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: to decide how I'm going to proceed from here. And
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: then that gives you time to decide if you're willing
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: to step.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Up and meet my needs. And it might might be
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: the sense of loss they need, right right, So, yeah,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: and she's fed up with me, fed up with me? Yeah,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's that's a great way to wrap
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: it up, because so many people want the answer to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: that question, like how do I get them to see right?
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: How do I get them.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: The only other option is to just say, hey, I
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: found this thing called attachment science. It seems to explain
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: me really well, I'm interested in to see if what
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: you think of it, if like you understand like where
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: you are on the attachment spectrum.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Right approach and curiosity.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Approach with curiosity right, instead of like if you approach
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: with hey, I think you're a dismissive avoidant and like
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you need to get all this help. It's you're going
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: to shut down faster, you know, than a liquor store
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: on Sunday.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's right. So if you are looking for the
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: hope that doctor Hansley just described, please go visit her
• 47:03
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  Speaker 1: program because there's just that extra level of instruction, and
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  Speaker 1: believe it or not, the group is also an extra
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  Speaker 1: level of intervention. I feel like, because the group gives
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  Speaker 1: you a sense of community, and it gives you a
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  Speaker 1: sense of this me too, feeling like, hey, I'm not
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  Speaker 1: alone here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of people mistakenly go, oh, I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to be in a group, and I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: you can be anonymous.
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  Speaker 1: You can be a blank screen where.
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  Speaker 2: Nobody knows your name, that's right, and you just submit
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: questions via the private chat mechanism. I read it, I
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: answer the question. I do not give personal details. It's
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  Speaker 2: about half and half about half my group are people
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: on camera making friends, saying hey, thank you Brett for
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: you know, asking that question, that was a great question,
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  Speaker 2: and they're like engaged. And then half the people are
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: just blank screens, right and just listening, just listening.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: And that's so it's your comfort level, and either way
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: is fine.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: To participate, it's right. We're just gonna throw that out there.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: So again, if you're struggling in your relationship, specifically with
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: a dismissive avoidance, there is hope. There is much hope.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Just a behavior pattern, just a set of habits that's right,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: And they need to be able to get the awareness
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: to break. To break them in the strategies that actually
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: work to rewire them for connection, they actually have to
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: be wired for and they're missing that wiring. In my
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: group strategy, we wire their brain for connection.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: So if this sounds interesting to you, please go visit
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: doctor Hinsley at her website, The Datingdecoder dot com. And
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: until next time, peace, love, and perspective