Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Sawyer Products Community Manager Katie Houston | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 26

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Sawyer Products Community Manager Katie Houston | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 26 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: All right, everyone, welcome back to another great episode of Beyond the Trailhead. This week we have an incredible guest with us, Katie from Sawyer with products like you've probably been on the trail with Sawyer Squeeze and the other things that they have. But Katie's here just to talk about Sawyer, what they do, and just some really cool stories on the trail. So Katie, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast today. speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm very excited to talk all things Sawyer and trail and beyond. speaker-0: Awesome. Before we were on, we were talking about how you got your trail name, which is Oats. So if I refer to Katie, either Oats or Katie, you know, moving forward, y'all will know why. So tell everybody kind of how you got your trail name first before we go into Sawyer. speaker-1: Sure, so my ⁓ background is actually in geology and I was always going to do the Appalachian Trail after I got that degree. So on the Appalachian Trail on my first night, I chose not to bring a stove. It was February and I took back a whole packet of brown sugar ⁓ maple oatmeal, just dry. I had broken my spoon that day at lunch on my frozen peanut butter. ⁓ My grandma endlessly teased me about my love of oatmeal and... dry oats was weird enough that it earned me the trail name. I also preferred it to chipper and sunshine, which were the other options. I feel like I could not keep up the disposition of somebody that however I could eat dry oats for the rest of my life. So yeah, oats is my trail name. speaker-0: So I guess everybody's gonna now that they listen to this, they're gonna go in their pantry and try to try a packet of instant speaker-1: the brown sugar maple. Do not try the apple cinnamon dry. In my opinion, it's trash and will ruin the experience for you. speaker-0: That's awesome. need, I'm eventually one day I'll get a trail name and maybe I'll see you on trail days, like we were saying, and I'll do something dumb and then everybody will finally give me a trail name. speaker-1: That's how it happens. Yep. Those are the best ones. But pick something that you feel good about embracing. Don't let someone give you ⁓ one that you're not excited about. speaker-0: Well, maybe they'll call me trip and fall or something like that. speaker-1: It's fun. A lost in founds is good. Kitchen sink is always fun. You'll find something that fits. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, go ahead and just tell us a little bit about Sawyer. I mean, I know a lot of people do know what Sawyer is and everything else, but just give us a background of Sawyer, maybe the history of it and how you got on the team. speaker-1: Yeah, so Sawyer was founded over 40 years ago now. They were founded in 1984 as a first aid safety company ⁓ and have evolved into this water filtration insect repellent giant that everyone knows today. ⁓ They are family owned based in Safety Harbor, Florida. So United States based, that's where HQ is. I am remote and I do a lot of our marketing. I manage our social media and our blog. So a lot of my day to day has to do with relationships with creatives, nonprofit organizations like trail stewardship organizations that we support and lots of advice through the impulses, lots of questions and all of that kind of stuff following along with people on their own adventures. ⁓ yeah, Sawyer ⁓ donates over 90 % of their profit to clean water work around the world. There's also some really exciting research that's happened lately with insect repellent and permethrin in malaria research. so it's expanded my ways, my work in some really cool ways from coming from the girl who had 35 pounds that started the AT with iodine drops and then learned about this little blue thing, you know, a couple of weeks in and yeah, I... coming from a geology background after doing the Appalachian Trail, I realized I needed to pivot my life and do that forever now. And looked at my backpack and the gear in it and reached out to the brands I was already using. So Hyperlite is one of my favorites for my backpack and my tent. then Sawyer felt very natural. And I was very much so just doing freelance for the first couple of years after the Appalachian Trail, I did a lot of work with the Trek. I was their social media manager for a while as well as sharing my own trips on the Colorado trail. I've done a lot of 300 to 500 mile trails since the Appalachian. But when Sawyer came on as a client about six months in, I realized how much my work was expanding into this clean water efforts and just kind of how much they had to offer and I had to offer them and I went full time with them ⁓ within six months and I've them for about four years now as their community director. speaker-0: That's awesome. I I love Sawyer's mission and stuff like that. And I had heard about, you know, had a Sawyer squeeze and stuff for a long time and everything, but just heard about the mission more so maybe a year ago and was super, super pumped about it too. Cause for me being a wedding photographer, we donate a certain amount of our profits in the name of the bride and groom to a nonprofit over, it was in over in India where we would give plates of food and clean water to. to kids and now we've switched to a local one since that other place has since closed down. But I think every company has to have a mission about them, not just, make money, make money, make money, right? It has to be ⁓ more than that. And I think Sawyer is a great example of over 90 % of its profits go back into saving lives basically, right? ⁓ So have you seen it like firsthand? Have you traveled with them, I'm sure, and done some things? Kind of maybe tell some stories of what it is that Sawyer does? Or first all, I guess tell everybody else who's listening kind of what Sawyer Squeeze does. So that way everybody kind of understands. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. So when you're holding a Sawyer squeeze or any Sawyer water filter, what's going on inside is a hollow fiber membrane. So basically it's these fibers with really, really tiny holes that are removing the contaminants that are bigger than that pore size. ⁓ Our pore sizes of Sawyer filters are 0.1 absolute microbes, which is ridiculously tiny. Other competitors in the water filter game in hollow fiber membranes. go to nominal microns, go up to nominal or up to absolute. And so when you're talking about effectiveness being based on the size separation, it really matters how small those cores are. So ⁓ additionally, the fibers are really, really strong. And so that means that they're able to be back flushed really vigorously and the flow rate restored, which is the only maintenance that these filters need. And so we... In past years, think, so Sawyer's been doing this international work since 2008, but only relatively recently, since about 2020, has Sawyer started kind of sharing this story. And a part of the reason I came on in the first place was to help tell the core user through Hikers about this clean water work and make them care essentially. And so what they did was took Miranda Webster, ⁓ Miranda goes outside, who used to work, do a lot of the video work for REI. ⁓ Several of our ambassadors, like Jennifer Parr Davis, Heather Anderson, Whitney LaRouffe, who we were just talking about before this call, ⁓ and sent them to witness these Clean Water Projects in action. So Whitney went to Uganda with Heather Anderson, host of the Fastest Snow Time podcast. Jennifer Parr Davis went with Darwin to Fiji with her family and Miranda went to Honduras and those latter two, especially Honduras and Fiji, those are some of our oldest programs. so like clean water programs, our clean water work is run by our charity partners. We have over 140 in over 80 countries. so Miranda got to work with water by women and they were celebrating 15 years. And so she was able to talk to people that use their water filter every single day and have for over 15 years. And they're there celebrating at this Water Woman celebration, clean water with this filter that has given their family clean water for all that time. And one of my favorite things is going to these trail festivals, like in Damascus and Cascade Locks. And when through hikers come up to me and say, my filter is broken, it's clogged, I need a new one. I'm like, give me... hours and get it back. And then I get to show them like, look, I got it back using, you know, various methods depending, but it's usually just hot water and vinegar and a thorough fat flushing that can restore those. And I love being able to point to these different stories and say like, look, these people like take care of their gear and it's served them for this length of time, ⁓ which is really incredible to be able to say. And you asked about my personal experience, what I've seen. I have not had the occasion to go on any international trips. However, that's kind of because I had a clean water, ⁓ events to take care of myself here a bit. ⁓ so I'm born and raised in Asheville, North Carolina. I'm currently in Charlotte, which is about two hours outside of Asheville, but my whole family is still there. means a lot to me, home. And in fall of 2024, Hurricane Helene hit the region and Hurricane Milton also hit Florida, which is where Sawyer HQ is based. so over the weekend that it hit, I was chatting with the Sawyer team at HQ, Kurt, the owner, overnighted hundreds of filters, like knew a pilot with a plane and shoved it full of... speaker-0: Thanks speaker-1: as many filters as they could. And I met them at the airport. They were also shipped to my house. I built bucket systems that my family used for months. ⁓ My grandma has a nebulizer that she needed to use for her medication and they were running it off a generator and they could only get clean water from the stream. And a lot of people in Asheville, even if they had water coming through the pipes, it was full of Stenonet. What's interesting is you can go on the city website and see what contaminants are in the water when there's a boil water notice and we noticed like this is bacterial and sediment, you know, it removes bacteria and sediment and so the whole thing was very whirlwind for about two weeks. We ended up starting a program where anybody could reach out through custom service and have 12 filters sent to them to give out to affected people in the region that needed them. Like basically no questions asked. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ so your ended up donating over 24,000 filters, ⁓ in that month or two, ⁓ that the region was without water and. speaker-0: I had some friends up there that were helping do cleanup. I'm not too far. I'm only like three hours outside Asheville in the northern suburbs of Atlanta. And they went up there and they were telling me about how they had to drink filter water. And I was like, hey, I know that. When I saw pictures of it, was like, hey, I know exactly. It's weird when you see a company that you've talked to before and stuff like that. You're like, ⁓ I know that company. It's so cool that they're donating this and doing that. So that's really great. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think a couple of thousand ⁓ insect repellents and some screens to the SAR teams because biting bugs and flourish after flooding. yeah, was in all of these connections that I had made previously or that Sawyer had previously in the region. It's amazing how they can come into play like Jennifer Farr Davis, ⁓ who was based in Asheville as well. She just happens to also be where I'm from. We ended up, I ended up taking 900 filters and leaving them in her garage overnight. So he was able to ⁓ distribute them in groups of 50 or less to groups going out to the most rural areas that were really affected by the landslides and that theoretically really needed them the most. ⁓ And it's amazing the overlap that search and rescue has with people that enjoy hiking and the hiking community. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It was as difficult of a time it was to see my home like that and the impact to add on so many people there. It felt good to be able to do something. And I'm really grateful for Sawyer giving me the opportunity to do that personally. And also just standing by what they do anyway of how much they re it really does mean a lot to them being able to donate and make a difference. And Kurt's whole motto is there's no view halls in heaven. And so, and he stands by that. Yeah. Yeah. When he eventually ⁓ retires or, you know, the suspension of the company will go to the Sawyer Foundation, ⁓ which is all about distributing in the most impactful way to our partners. ⁓ Yeah. So, yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. That's cool. I like that motto because that's my family's motto is very similar because it's been like years ago, our friends would try to like all hoard all this stuff. And then we were like, why are we hoarding this stuff? And we could take that money that we're going to just sit in a bunker for the rest of our lives. And we can go out and like help a ton of people who are in need because I can't take this with me. Right. So. speaker-1: Right. Yeah, totally. speaker-0: I love that. so going, going into Sawyer then from, from when it started. So now everybody knows kind of Sawyer and their mission. So now Sawyer is, you he started the company and what, what was the biggest growth spurt that the company had? Like, I know that it's been around for a while, so I'm sure there were some ups and downs. Maybe you could tell us about some ups and some downs of Sawyer and how it was, how the growth happened. speaker-1: Sure, what a good question. ⁓ Well, our water filter, the squeeze came out in 2010, I believe, ⁓ which was a really, it's considered our workhorse model. The only difference between the squeeze and our other models of filters is that it has more surface area of the fibers and therefore a higher flow rate and can go longer between the bat flushes theoretically. so that, quickly became a favorite, especially through hikers, which is kind of our hardcore user that we really care about their experience of the product because they're using it all day, every day for months on end. And I find it especially cool when it's about like one of our ambassadors recently, Akuna, he just had one filter for his entire Triple Crown experience. So all three of the long trails in the United States, he was able to have to smother and filter. And those kinds of stories that come from having the products that can make it happen is really impactful from a consumer standpoint. And I think maybe the downs have to do with getting knowledge out to people about our products. And so. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: the rise of like kind of crunchy, like parenting and mods and being worried about chemicals and that kind of thing, I think has had some impact on how people perceive their repellents, ⁓ like permethrin and picaridin. And so I, we, we value a lot of education around those things. And ⁓ obviously the rise of tick-borne illness in the United States in the last couple of years, but you know, it's been a friend for longer, ⁓ has also really played into that. And I think we're seeing people seeking out true information more and looking back at their own behavior and their own behavior changes. as far as the clean water work goes worldwide, behavior change is one of the most important things that we kind of harp on or we put into our best practices when we're talking about like training the community or people in the community, like what are the most important things they learn? It's behavior change. And it's not just like, you back flush your filter every day, it'll last you a lifetime, but it's also hand washing and sanitation around that. That's not the only thing that's going to make you sick. so, and you're weaving all of these like principles and knowledge and just, I think. perceived knowledge barrier of these like relatively high tech gadgets or like ⁓ maybe unknowns has been successful for us but also you know a challenge ⁓ to face with just the nature of the products. speaker-0: Yeah. I think what I've run into personally with any kind of Sawyer's squeeze specifically is most people on trail. don't necessarily, they just grab it and go, and they don't necessarily know how to backflush it. Sometimes like I was on trail with someone and they're like, it was like dripping out and I was like, you just have to backflush. And he's like, no, I'm good. And I was like, okay, you can sit there for an hour. I'm just going to squeeze mine and go. You know, that education portion of it, I mean, it depends on where you are on the trail and how fast gets clogged and stuff like that too. Like if you're getting sediment from a glacier versus just, you know, a standing pond or something like that. But I think getting that education portion of it to people is, is key. And like when you were saying, when you're at like, you know, trail days and someone needs their, their filter done and they just don't understand necessarily. And it's a small, small, small percentage of people, but you you still run into that. I'm sure you get emails from people all the time that are like, Hey, this doesn't work a certain way. And it's like, it's more of a human error than it is a. speaker-1: Right. And there's an art about telling someone it's their behavior as opposed to it's a problem with the gear in a way that they're going to listen and wants to fix it. And I think specifically what's coming to mind is like an innovation that I think was very helpful for our products and through Hikers specifically was this little blue cleaning coupling, this little blue coupling that can make gravity filtering a lot easier, like fully hands off. But it's also a way to backflush on trail. However, it doesn't achieve a higher enough PSI to compare to the plunge yard. And therefore it's not as effective of a backflush. And so I get through hikers that will come to me and be like, I backflush it all the time and it still stinks. And I'm like, what are you using to backflush it? That matters. I love being able to like find that with people or myself. The problem I had most with filters before I joined the Sawyer team was I would always crank it down and like it has a universal threading size so it can go on any kind of soda bottle, a water bottle, anything with that 28 millimeter threading. And I like using it on a bottle. So I screw it on and I would crank it down, which warps the little O-ring. the washer that's up connecting the filter to the bottle. And when that gets warped, at least, and it falls out and it's super annoying. And I didn't know for years, 3,000 miles under my feet before I realized I was the problem. And all it needs to be an effective tool is a snug fit. And so I tell people like, just enough that you feel the resistance and that's it. And you can make one O-ring last over thousand miles. And it's those kinds of things that like talking to somebody in person and being like, I made that mistake is some of my favorite conversations to have. Cause I can see the light in their head and like, Oh, like this doesn't have to be a problem anymore. So cool. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. You're getting water all over yourself. You're like, why am I doing this? I mean, I used to do it with the hose in the backyard. would just crank it down. And then I realized, ⁓ the tighter I go, all of now I'm distorting the O-ring in there. Or sometimes my hose doesn't even have the O-ring because it fell out. I'm like, you don't, people don't think about those things. I think it's great for companies to understand too, like when you have a problem with a customer to give them an answer. Cause you know, Some customer, it's funny, I just watched, and I love Chick Flicks, I just watched, it was with Anne Hathaway and Robert De Niro or something like that, ⁓ where she's like, ⁓ owns this clothing company in New York, but she's the CEO. At the beginning of the movie, she's on ⁓ the customer service line and taking customer service calls, even though she's the CEO and they have 200 something odd people on staff. but she's giving them a really clear, nice answer as opposed to those times where you get those emails from customer service or from someone that's like, what's wrong with you? You're an idiot, you know? And then you lose that brand loyalty because people go, you know what? They're going to treat me like trash. I'm going to find somewhere else to get my clean water or my backpack and stuff like that. And, sometimes you do have to be harsh with some people because they do. sometimes take advantage of the system as well. speaker-1: Yeah, there's a degree of something out who's committed to missile if you're standing you and who actually wants to like learn something. But sometimes it's hard for a person to even tell that difference in themselves. It's like, am I learning something or is there something wrong with this here? But thankfully over 99 % of Sawyer filters that have ever been sold are still in working condition today. We've had less than 1 % failure rate. We take a lot of pride in that. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. And I think that's a good point to make for people who are going out on the trail. If you're listening and you're like, you get a sore squeeze or any kind of water filter, any kind of gear before you got on trail, test it before you go out. Cause you don't want to buy it and be on the trail. Even when you, you you're on the AT and you're seven days in and you stopped by the store to switch out gear before you leave, test out that piece of gear that you just picked up. Cause you never know if that sleeping pad has a leak in it or something just from shipping or some idiot cuts open the giant box and slices the sleeping pad and stuff like that. You just never know. So that's really, really cool. I guess my next question will be, what is it that, and some of these questions I know you might not be able to answer, so just let me know if you can't or not, but what's one piece of, ⁓ what's one thing you thought would be easy, maybe? when you were working with Sawyer, but ended up being really, really hard. speaker-1: Hmm speaker-0: You won't lose your job, I promise. speaker-1: Hmm, that's a good, that's a really good question. Um. There's a part of it that just being such a small team and working remotely has its own challenges in communication, but also just, I really value talking to people. ⁓ I do feel like I get now after so many years with my knowledge being built up of like how Sawyer does things internally and also what it could be. ⁓ My favorite conversations are with creators and nonprofits and like Sawyer Squad calls where I get to talk about content and collaborations and making donations and those kinds of things. ⁓ But I do, there is a personal longing for a physical ⁓ interaction with the team more than we have. ⁓ But we have had ⁓ planning conferences in Florida at HQ in the past. It's just that disconnect maybe between marketing and manufacturing when you have a remote team versus, you know, HQ. There's a ton of challenges there. Yeah. speaker-0: I think that's a great point then to make is, when you run a company, whether it's small or big, these days we have a lot of remote workers. I'm way older than you, I'm sure. ⁓ I worked in cubicle world and stuff like that. I loved hanging out and talking with people. There's only so much you can do through video and stuff like that. when you get together, you're just like... It's like family, you know, you have this great connect and then you have this energy that just pops up. And next thing you know, you're just super productive for like weeks because you've had that kind of human connection and speaker-1: Yeah, well said. Yeah, that definitely resonates. Like after those in-person meetings and such, you really feel the motivation and like purpose behind your work, like other people. speaker-0: So I guess this could lead into my other question then, like how do you stay connected with the outdoors? You work with the outdoor companies, but a lot of times people, you know, you're a construction worker, so you don't do construction on your own home. I'm sure you're not out on the trail as much as you would like, or how do you stay connected in the outdoors? speaker-1: Yeah, I usually have one three to 500 mile trail per year that I will set an email signature for my annual romp in the woods and be gone for three weeks. Travis, our marketing director is fantastic and he takes care of everything from the Sawyer end when I'm gone. ⁓ actually one of the first times I didn't have to post daily for a client on a hike was this break with Sawyer and being able to do the Penhody Trail last year. And, oh man, that feels special. Cause every trail since the AT for me, I have been posting daily for a client and that is just. Not exactly what I want when I'm out there or it's not refreshing in the same way. And there was a period of time where in my freelancing, I was planning what articles I was going to do in advance. was keeping the daily logs and posting them. was thinking about what I could pitch after the fact. And I'm really thankful to be able to have this. It's just me and the trail and my dog. I'm really, really grateful for those opportunities. But that being said, I'm also grateful that I work remotely and literally this weekend I was in my Winnebago and in Georgia on Jekyll Island and visiting the sea turtles, but I wasn't able to come back and write my emails. ⁓ that was just cause it was time for me to get out and do something different. I definitely am grateful for the opportunity to be able to fulfill that desire in myself very genuinely through Sawyer. They. really do support. Like if I need to be offline, I can be offline. Yeah. Which feels very human in a world that, a corporate world that you come from maybe and other jobs I've had. speaker-0: Yeah. I was just in New York ⁓ with my wife. She was doing a social media conference. ⁓ for those listening, my wife and I do another thing online. It's Asian mom, white dad stereotypes. it's got ⁓ like 118,000 followers on Instagram. It's kind of fun. We do all these viral videos and stuff like that. But she was there doing a social media conference, just learning a little bit more about social and stuff. And I'm watching all the people walk around. this concrete jungle and my wife loves the city, but loves that disconnect of you can go out in nature and go hiking and camping and disconnect. But that same thing, like you're saying, like you, it's a, it's a double edged sword. Cause you're like, you get to be out and do your like hiking and stuff. But you have to also, we also have to all make money and work and stuff like that. And it's not that you don't want to post for the companies you work for. It's just. At the end of the day, after hiking 15, 20 miles, it's hard to go, OK, I got to find signal. I grab my satellite device out and upload for a client when all you want to do is sit there and eat dry oats. speaker-1: Yes, you understand. Yeah. I found actually on this last trip, I do love writing and I love taking pictures and storytelling. The easiest to do to story tell about yourself and what you're doing. And so I found this last Penhody hike last spring. What I think is going to be my new system going forward, which was for the three weeks I was on trail every night, I would spend 10 to 15 minutes writing. blurbs like fragments of sentences about the day, adding the photos of that day onto a folder. And then when I got home, every day I was home, I would go back to a day on trail, extrapolate, like write it all out into a blog post, insert the photos, it would usually take like two to three hours and then post to socials. ⁓ But I did that for three weeks after I got back in a personal capacity. That felt good. It felt like I was keeping something for posterity from the trip. I wasn't taking away from being in the moment. And it was a reflection tool after the fact. And nobody knew where I was, which also with rising social media and such has made me uncomfortable before. And so that felt really, really good to me. I think I have a system that works for me now. speaker-0: Yeah. It's a great point you make too, just with being out on the trail or whatever you're doing. Like for me and my family, like we don't post anything until we get back into town just because then, you know, my house is empty with my mother-in-law in it and stuff like that, you know, versus you're on the trail and next thing you people know where your next, you know, campsite might be because you're a certain part of the trail and you know, you don't, you know, you want to be safe and stuff like that. I'm sure we've all run into our share of interesting people on trail that you're like, okay, let's just keep going and forget it. We're not staying here tonight because I think they're going to kill us. so, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's great. I love just doing those little snippets and then being able to write it as, cause you got to keep that memory fresh. Cause you always think when you're hiking, I'll remember it later on, but man. all those days compound together and you like, what day did this happen on and everything else? So that's a great tip for that. speaker-1: Yeah, and I love the magic of the mundane. And I think you lose that when you don't keep as regular notes, because I think there's something fun about that one time I compared the flower to the one from Hadestown or whatever. Like, it's fun to like reminisce on those connections and make them important enough to write down. I think that's, yeah, it feels good for me. speaker-0: Yeah. Do, um, I guess going, skipping completely different sizes of the floor just reminded me of some, just remembered something, but when, I was going to ask you kind of like, if there's like a moment or a customer story that review that hit really hard, but then it just kind of reminded me of, y'all had a while back. I'm not exactly sure when, but you had did like a collab with Canock, um, with the bag. Cause I know like there was this thing where the bags that would come in my Sawyer a lot of people would just kind of ditch them because they would leak because they were just wearing... I never used it. just went straight to my Canock so I can't speak for whatever. But what started that collab or how did that work or how do you collab with another company? speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. This is like one of my favorite products we've ever come out with ⁓ is this Knock collab. ⁓ yeah, so we are a water filter company. We are not a water bladder company or reservoir company. And so for years, people have been telling us like, are using the Knock bags anyway, and their systems and showing us their systems and we get all excited. And so ⁓ the owner of Knoch Gilad is a friend of the brand. We meet him at various trail days and, ⁓ it really was just a conversation that turned into a collaboration over time. ⁓ we knew that it was a successful system. The bags that come with our systems were more so to where we're, think, ⁓ I Ideally meeting the need that the retailers had for a complete system. They didn't want just the builder. know a lot of thru-hikers specifically because they freeze it or break it or don't want to deck flush it just want a builder. But the majority of our retailers, because we're just wholesale, we don't sell directly to public. I guess we do now on our website, but at the time that was a relatively recent change for us. That's what REI, Walmart. ⁓ everybody wants is a complete system. so working with Canock just felt very natural. They make these amazing TPU based ladders and reservoirs. So we decided on kind of three SKUs that we wanted to pitch to REI and they loved them. ⁓ We have the smaller micro with a 750 milliliter flask. We have a ⁓ one liter bottle with our squeeze and then we have a two liter ⁓ that you could open from the top bladder. And a lot of through hikers really use ⁓ with the squeeze as well. I personally, I don't use gravity filter. I like being able to squeeze it through my bottle, but I love having the additional capacity to camel if I need to on trail for the additional two liters. ⁓ Some people just like having it on board with them, like the trail runners. And yeah, we've gotten really good reception. The majority of people that have talked to us about that have been like, what took you so long? And really, we're just grateful that it happened and it's out there and everyone's really enjoying it. speaker-0: That's cool. Yeah. I think people don't realize when you start a business and you go to, ⁓ retail that a lot of times, cause I shoot for a lot of companies and Costco has a different way that they want their images than Dick's sporting goods does. And so I have to, you know, tweak it a little bit or do a whole other photo shoot depending on the brand and even, ⁓ company I was working with, they're this thick. the complete system like you're talking about. If you're trying to come out with a backpack, they don't just want the backpack, they want maybe some sort of navigation piece, something in it that makes it seem like someone can go and do something as a whole instead of having to grab a bunch of pieces and stuff like that. I think which is when you're starting a brand and you're going to retail, you have to understand that they are going to ⁓ really tell you what to do. And you kind of have no say. unless you're a huge player. But it's really up to that retailer to kind of tell you what to do. So, I mean, that's cool that REI, I think everybody was expecting it eventually. Like, hey, I think they're gonna eventually do that. I bought my Sawyer like right as that transition was happening. And so I still have the regular Sawyer bags. I have like, know, everybody have like gear tubs. I think my bags are just, my Sawyer bags are sitting in, a gear tub in case something happens to my other bladders, but that's a cool little bit of right there. speaker-1: Yeah, you said it correctly too. That's another common question I get is, is it CNOCK? Is it CNOCK? ⁓ speaker-0: It's only because I had Galad on here for the podcast and I was like, so how do I say it? Demand. ⁓ speaker-1: the question everybody wants. It's some Gaelic for mountain. speaker-0: Yes. Okay, so going back to some stories, guess, if you could tell us, I know you've got a bazillion of them, maybe a moment when a customer story or review really hits you hard that was, it can be negative or positive, but something that people can be like, ⁓ wow, I had no idea. speaker-1: ⁓ man, so many. Just the one that's top of mind, because we were talking about it earlier, you mentioned Helene and like hearing about people using the Sawyer filters. In Helene, through Sawyer social media, I got at least half a dozen or a dozen photos and stories of people that were using their Sawyer filter in their gear closet to give clean water to their neighbors, as well as for themselves. And so they were able to like, send me their own pictures of their setups and be like, is for me and the two houses next to me. speaker-0: That's so cool. speaker-1: And those were not ones that we donated. Those were just ones that people have, which is so, so cool that it empowered them in that way in such a scary situation. ⁓ As far as other stories that are powerful. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, know there's so many, just because there's such a good outreach program that you guys have with everything. I think it just lends to why people need to go with a Sawyer if you like it and stuff like that. It's almost like, what was it? What's that shoe company that did like, like Toms? Remember Toms? yeah. speaker-1: Like thigh pair, give up hair. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, I was like, I think I was in high school when like they came out with Toms and everybody was wearing Toms and we're all like, Oh my gosh, let's get a pair. Cause then they give a pair, know, you couldn't even find them at that point. Cause they were just, everybody was like, Oh, I love the fact that they give back. So, um, I think like I'd said earlier, if you have a business, you really need to look at giving back to either the community or I know some people give like 1 % back to clean planet. and all these different things, but find something that's close to your heart and you'll be successful versus if you just find some random thing that you're like, okay, I'll just give this just to be a cliche give back person. You really have to have that heart for it. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think in the outdoor industry, specifically, we have an obligation to give back to organizations that maintain our public lands and that means being our trails and the places that people are recreating. And so we are very happy to support a bunch of different trail stewardship organizations in that way, whether it's through like product donations for their trail crews to keep the bugs off of them, or it's for. like actual cash for the year. I'm really proud to share some love in that way to those people, just because of the nature of the gear, how it's being used and where. ⁓ But that being said, I also love our kind of like motto is from the back country to the backyard. And I love hiking specifically because of how accessible it is. I know a lot of the gear isn't necessarily, especially ultra light. But when a hike can be a walk around the neighborhood and enjoying the outdoors can mean playing in your backyard. I just, really love that ⁓ presentation of how accessible it is for people. And in that sense, how empowering the products can be because fighting bugs and water can be very big barriers for people. to getting outside and enjoying the outdoors. And these products actually not only like take away that concern, but can empower you. Like seeing kids at trail festivals, pick up our filter and turn it over and be like, this is dirty and it comes out clean and I can drink this. And I'm so excited. It's the coolest thing to see. I have... background taken. I was a science museum intern at the Asheville Museum of Science in college. And I think that kind of energy has really stuck with me of like, making people happy to understand how their year is working and how it's serving them and that they trust it. ⁓ I just, those are really countless stories that people, ⁓ I have conversations about all the time in person. speaker-0: wonder if you can answer this question for me that just popped into my head from those stories, because it's such a reliable product and everything. So how would a company that creates a reliable product sell more to people when eventually you just, you know, everybody has, let's say everybody has a Sawyer and it lasts for forever. How do I grow my business? speaker-1: Totally. You found the irony. You found the irony. Yes. I have said explicitly many times, I know this is weird to say, but you shouldn't need to buy another filter. If it doesn't crack, if it doesn't freeze, you shouldn't be able to bring it back. And I think there's an authenticity to the brand from saying that of like being honest in that you don't need to buy another. Like it's okay, use the one you have. I think that buyers see there's an honesty there that may be taking away a purchase from us as a brand, but is an investment in like the truth of it, you know? And people's perception of the brand matters because of that, or it is affected because of that. ⁓ And in that sense, we're really grateful for the repellent side of the company because that's something that's used up. And you're going to need more of. And so I, it doesn't necessarily detract from the business in a way that is concerning because we have this other avenue of making profit, um, to, know, to give it away and make money to make, to give away money. But that's kind of a motto. Um, yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's cool. I like, think building that brand loyalty of, we're honest people. want to give you this product. And then maybe you create a product that is incredibly, you know, long lasting, like a backpack. mean, how many packs have people come out with and you're like, do I need, really need to, you know, not saying you don't need to upgrade, but do I really need to spend another two, three, $400 on a new pack when the one that I use is perfectly fine? but hey, maybe they have an accessory that I can hold something in, or maybe they have a consumable that you buy, so you're constantly going back to that brand saying, hey, I'm gonna get this X, Y, and Z. I feel like for tents, tents will last forever, but I go through tent pegs like they're just candy, because I don't care how sturdy they are, I bend them and break them all the time, so I'm like, that's my consumable for a tent company right there. ⁓ But no, that's really, really good. think I worked with another company and they have a lot of things that last for forever, but they do have like a consumable. And I never thought about that. ⁓ that's kind of how we run the photography side of us with, ⁓ specifically even more so the, ⁓ the wedding side of it is we do the wedding, but we're honest with them. give them a great experience, but then they come back because they're like, Hey, we want to do. family pictures as we grow older or they start a company and they're like, hey, you do headshots, you do all these different things. Even with ⁓ the outdoor brands, we give them a great experience, give them what they need and then give them more that they long for later on. So you gotta give people something that they really long for still in your brand to keep growing, I think. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. And there's also that strange, I say strange, but I love them group of people that like, maybe have the funds and not the care to really like, if they have a clogged filter, they're going to buy another one. They're like, whatever, I'm just going to buy another one. know I could fix it, but why would I do that when it's $45? So it's amazing the number of people that like will come up to me at a festival and be like, just letting you know, I love your product. and I get one every year and I'm like, that's great, but you don't really need to get one every year. And they're like, I know I'm going to keep getting one every year. And I'm like, okay, sure. speaker-0: That's hilarious. That's probably, that's me actually. I'm more of like, well, not necessarily. I still use, I usually give it to my friends just because I have so much gear. So I'm like. speaker-1: Totally, yeah. They get adopted. use this. Yeah, we get that a lot too, which is, it's fun to hear people don't feel bad about buying the same product over and over over again. I think that's definitely a positive. speaker-0: this. Yeah, that's cool. Well, I think before I go into like our ⁓ lightning round where I just ask you a bunch of random questions that you have no idea. ⁓ If there's something that like Sawyer is, you know, in the future, like you guys have some really cool stuff coming out, like what are the plans for or the legacy of Sawyer? speaker-1: Yes, I love this question because I have something cool to talk about. So no new products on the horizon at the moment. However, ⁓ in October of last year, there was a professor at UNC Chapel Hill, Dr. Ross Boyce. UNC Chapel Hill, without our involvement or knowledge, published a study in the New England Journal of Medicine that was a study on ⁓ mother-infant pairs in Uganda. And it studied the impact of R-permethrin on baby wraps and how that impacted malaria rates. And it decreased them by 66 % in the pairs. And so we obviously were very excited and have been in talks with that professor. There's more studies that are being done, but we are already working with some of our charity partners and to make baby wrap treatment kits that hopefully ⁓ we will be able to bring into the fold of our clean water work. ⁓ Because we're already there, we're already in the communities, we meaning the charity partners that we have. ⁓ The one I'm thinking of specifically that's ⁓ does a lot of work in Kenya, but also many, many other countries. the bucket ministry, they are already teasing the rap ministry. That's cool. As a whole like second part of their charity. And they're like thinking about this as a response to this study on our chlamathorin. And it's very, very cool to see the beginnings of what might be a really big thing. Yeah. What we hope will be a very big thing in avenging malaria rates. Because the... I don't know any of the statistics off my head, but ⁓ the rates of children suffering from malaria, especially in Africa, the study was done in Uganda, are very high. And we know that our pharmaceutical grade permethrin is not going to hurt them. It's odorless. They're not even going to know it's on the baby wrap and it's going to keep them protected. And that's what's most important and it's effective. So very, very. Yeah, exciting news on the horizon, but you can read more about it. There's been coverage by NPR and Reuters and all of that on our website. speaker-0: ⁓ I mean, I've been around a lot of kids that have had malaria and everything else ⁓ in Sierra Leone. Quite a few times I've been there in the rainy season and the mosquitoes are out there like crazy and you're sleeping under this mesh tent and it sounds like an airport. Speaking of mosquitoes. Like literally there's thousands of them just banging on the... the mesh while I'm sleeping going, my gosh, if I didn't have this mosquito net on me, I would be eaten alive right now. And those kids, just, you know, they need that, that health and I think clean water and keeping the diseases from them is, so crucial. I'm super excited that you guys continue to do that. That's, that's awesome. Well, Well, okay. Well, I guess I'm going to switch gears from saving children to hearing about. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. speaker-0: hearing about you as a person. So I'm gonna ask you a couple of random questions right now. They're usually one word answers, really, really simple. And then after that, ⁓ I'll let you just kind of shout out Sawyer a little bit and where we can find you guys online. So, all right, here we go. First question and probably my favorite one is favorite national park. speaker-1: Smokies, the Great Smoky Mountain. speaker-0: Really? Okay. Did you hear about that lady that just died on the, what's the cave on that one trail? ⁓ it's not necessarily a cave, but yeah, she fell 60 feet and died a couple of days ago. speaker-1: Oh my God, I didn't hear that. Wow. I was at Kate's house just two months ago. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, it's like one of those things that people usually don't die in the Smokies because there's not a lot of crazy cliffs or anything anywhere. So yeah, I love it up there. We were just camping. I found a place on Hip Camp that has this private property just outside of the Great Smokies. And it's just overlooking the Smokies. looks amazing. And it was really, really cool. That's awesome. coffee or electrolyte drinks on the trail? speaker-1: From the trail, electrolyte drinks. At home, coffee. speaker-0: I'll let you try. Okay, ⁓ early bird or night owl? speaker-1: Early bird. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah. All right. Tent, hammock or cowboy camping. speaker-1: Hent. Hent. I love my hyperlite trekking pole tent. Unbounce 2P. speaker-0: I'll put that in the description. ⁓ Okay, this one I love is worst trail snack you've ever tried. speaker-1: worst trail snack I've ever tried. ⁓ man, it's gonna be cheating a little bit, but the apple cinnamon oatmeal, man, it just really doesn't do it for me. I think it's because I have such a high expectation from the brown sugar maple. It just lets me down so hard. And it's always in hiker boxes. And so I'm always like, And then I'm like, no. speaker-0: Yeah, like, no. It's funny because the apple one is my favorite growing up. So. speaker-1: my partner's favorite and I just, I believe he's wrong. speaker-0: All right, so what's the best other than the brown sugar oatmeal? What's your favorite trail snack? speaker-1: My favorite thing that I've indulged in, I've allowed myself on trail is the one pound packets of sugar cookie mix from Dollar Generals. And I literally, this is insane. I bought a pot on the Appalachian trail so I could mix it at night and eat it as dinner with a spoon in liquid form. speaker-0: You're a true through hiker. speaker-1: True, Iker trash, yes. speaker-0: Yes, yes you are. Yes indeed. All right, what's, if you could collab with any brand, who would it be and why? speaker-1: a collab with any brand? would it be? Well, Knok is already amazing. ⁓ Ooh! Grand meeting gear many times? speaker-0: Yeah, gear manufacturer, maybe like an electrolyte drink you guys want to throw in a pack so you can mix water with it or something like that. speaker-1: Yeah. But yeah. Well, RECPACK, just because it's kind of divine. RECPACK, I don't know if you're familiar with theirs. They make some really fun dehydrated meals. And I tried some on my recent Penhody. I actually went back and did sections this winter and had their like chai latte and ridiculously good. their packaging has a 28 millimeter threading. speaker-0: Yes, they're vanilla chives. Really good. speaker-1: So in the event you needed a Sawyer ⁓ bag for any reason, that is your journey. speaker-0: That's good. like that. I'll tell them that. All right. So I guess my second to last question is what's one ⁓ outdoor skill that you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: Ooh, navigation, navigation. I, when I was a kid, the way I got into the outdoors was a nonprofit focused on getting kids outside. Cause my family wasn't very outdoorsy and they taught us maps and compasses. They taught us bearings. We learned. then getting on trail, I've never turned back from just walking down the trail. ⁓ and God forbid I ever have to navigate. ⁓ That's kind of, mean, I'm just terrible at it in daily life, but if I have to, I can. There was one I did a couple of years ago, the Appalachian high route that I had to get Cal Togo tracks and kind of like puzzle piece them together. Uh, and then kind of follow along on my phone, but they're like, wasn't far out. And so that was difficult. That was a bit of a, a bit of a stretch for me. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I, there was someone who just got lost in Yosemite of all places and he did the right thing, which, know, usually you go walk in all over the place and he was like, I'm just going to stay still. And so someone knows that I'm and they found him like six days past due. And he was totally fine. Cause he had rationed his food and everything else. But he just stayed there and go, finally someone found herself in my spot and everything else. that's my one fear is getting lost. And I have so many. I guess I'm the opposite. have really good sense of direction, but when my wife's out there, she's just following me around like, please don't lose me. Cause I'll just get lost. Well, when she's by herself, she's completely fine. But when she's with me, she's like a blind puppy is what she always says. She's just kind of follow me around. So, ⁓ all right. Last, well, second to last, what's the last thing you Googled or chatted about related to your business? speaker-1: ⁓ Well, yesterday was April Fool's. So the one that's coming to mind for me, which I chatted with Travis about because he is on Reddit and kind of like heaps an eye on the ultra light communities and stuff. ⁓ The Reddit thread lava lamps, somebody posted, they post relatively frequently about using a Sawyer filter to filter your lava lamp. ⁓ Let me be very clear. Do not use it to drink water after you do this. However, it's a really good use for somebody that's like, I'm never going to use that filter again. It's frozen, whatever. And there's this whole thread about filtering your lava lamp fluid. And there's before and after pictures. And you can go on Instagram right now because I posted yesterday. This is not a joke. People do this. Here's what it looks like. ⁓ And so that was kind of a fun little. ⁓ speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: April Fool's adjacent content from yesterday. speaker-0: That's really interesting. It's crazy. Okay, and the last question is ⁓ one word that your team would use to best describe you. speaker-1: Super unique. over there. Me? Personal? enthusiastic. Yeah, yeah, Chippitter, right? Enthusiastic. I, ⁓ the time that I give, I am here a hundred percent. ⁓ I'm not always here. Sometimes I'm in the woods, but. speaker-0: But you're always given 100, so. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Cause it helps that the work is so purposeful. really, really does. ⁓ Yeah. Writing. mean, last month I wrote about, I got to highlight three of our women ambassadors doing absolutely incredible things. Heather Anderson just wrote a book. Zelsa Nacateli is ⁓ pioneering the Baja Sierra Trail, which was Mexico's first long distance trail. And Katie Spots is preparing for a row of the Pacific Ocean. speaker-0: That's cool. speaker-1: to raise clean money for Fiji and she is going to visit the Fiji Clean Water Program in the next two weeks. So there was that and then World Water Day was last week, which was water and gender. And so got to do a whole exploration about the implications of water work on women worldwide and the kind of unequal distribution of work in that. ⁓ Yeah, and highlight some of our charities that focus on empowering women with clean water. Yeah. So you can tell I am very enthusiastic. It's such cool stuff. I mean, you know, how could I not be? speaker-0: Yeah, you have to be excited about what you do. And I think when you're excited and you get people like you on the team that are super excited, your business grows exponentially as opposed to just literally. speaker-1: I think the customers realize it too. They're like, this girl's been here for four years and she's still just as excited about these. Like in a cyber balance and water filters. Like I hope that says. speaker-0: Yeah, well that's great. Well, Katie, thank you so much. I mean, I appreciate all the stories and learning so much about Sawyer. I'm sure everybody learned a lot more about the company and just kind of, you know, how to grow their own business and stuff like that. So if people are looking for Sawyer, I know you gave us a code for Beyond the Trailhead. So if you're listening, use code beyond20 to get 20 % off on Sawyer's website with certain things. And how can we find you guys online? speaker-1: Yes, at Sawyer products across all of your social platforms, sawyer.com, ⁓ sawyerfoundation.org. If you'd like to learn more about our foundation or you can make a donation or recurring or one time, you can choose what region of the world that goes to or choose baby wraps for the permethrin ⁓ research that's going on. And ⁓ yeah, those are the main places to find Sawyer. I'm in all of the inboxes on the social platforms. So if anybody has any questions, whether it's about anything we talked about or that filter that they found in their gear closet from five years ago, ⁓ feel free to hop on and say hi. speaker-0: Awesome. Thank you so much. Well everybody. Thank you so much for listening to be on the trailhead again this week And we look forward to next week and Katie again. Thank you so much. I'm sure I'll see you on the trailer at Trail Days speaker-1: Yeah, that would be so amazing. Please come say hi. Give my dog a pat. I'll give you a filter. speaker-0: Awesome. Thank you, Katie. Bye. speaker-1: Thanks, great, bye.