Latest / Identity at the Center / #177 - Authenticate 2022 - IDPro Chat with Ian Glazer and Andi Hindle

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#177 - Authenticate 2022 - IDPro Chat with Ian Glazer and Andi Hindle · Identity at the Center

0:09
You're listening to the identity at the center podcast.
0:12
This is the show that talks about identity and access
0:14
management and making sure you know who has access to what
0:18
let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the
0:24
sender podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:26
Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? I'm good yourself.
0:28
Good. How about running into Eric
0:31
Anderson over lunch today? Yeah, that was pretty cool.
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I had to, I had a major bone to pick with him now is because he
0:37
put the struts earwig into me like a year and a half ago and
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totally went down a rabbit hole of listening to all things the
0:45
struts. So thanks Eric for that.
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Yeah, thanks Eric for that. And I mean, the guy is very
0:51
knowledgeable about the Seattle, grunge scene.
0:54
So he's going to join us tomorrow night.
0:57
I think for the happy hour at the mo pop Museum.
1:01
Yeah, that'd be cool. Maybe he can give us a tour of
1:04
all the things that he has seen. Probably where?
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I think it didn't say he was like a radio DJ here during sort
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of like that Grunge era. Yeah.
1:11
Right in the early 90s. Yeah, that's kind of cool.
1:14
Very cool. Very cool.
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But I think that's one of the great things about conferences.
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Overall running into people catching up with old friends,
1:21
making new AIDS and we run into a few friends for this podcast
1:26
episode. So when we jump right into it,
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yeah, we've got you in Glaser, he's SVP product management at
1:32
Salesforce, and a co-founder of ID Pro.
1:34
Welcome Ian, thank you. Abby, was that polite?
1:37
It was very polite. Okay, I specifically listener, I
1:39
specifically asked for a polite introduction.
1:41
He did, I did, I did my best. We've also got Andy hindle.
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He's a Content chair for identi verse and board member at Ida
1:48
Pro. Welcome, Andy.
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I'm delighted to be here, but that introduction was not as
1:52
polite. And I'm disappointed as well.
1:54
Well, you know, one of the two ain't bad and I think 50% for a
1:56
success rate is probably okay as a first cut of things, you can
2:01
fix it in post. Sure.
2:03
I will add, I don't know what I could do in post, I can maybe
2:05
add some sound effects, or sparkling sound, something like
2:08
that. So, you guys are both here and
2:13
one of the things we want to sort of on a leadoff, the
2:14
conversation with is around ID Pro.
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It's an organization that I happen to be a member of no Ian,
2:20
we talked about you being a co-founder of it and Andy, Your
2:22
board member with it. Now, I guess, for folks who are
2:25
not familiar with ID Pro, what is it?
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And why do I want to be part of it?
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So are you Pro is the professional association for
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digital identity, practitioners and professionals.
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We found it about seven years ago and it came from a place
2:41
where I noticed that our security peers, have a
2:46
profession certification, they have communities in which they
2:49
can learn from, there's bodies of knowledge, And our privacy
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peers have the same thing too. But we didn't.
2:57
And I coupled that with observation, not as I talk to
3:00
people around the industry. Most people That I've met have
3:06
learned or gotten into identity management by learning a single
3:09
product and then they learned another one and then they
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learned another one, and all of a sudden, I like, wait a minute,
3:14
there's like a thing here, right?
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And so, the desire I had was to move identity management from
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essentially being a dark art one that you only learn through some
3:24
weird sort of suffering process of product specific, sort of
3:27
implementations and challenges into one that could become a
3:30
profession that could have a body of knowledge.
3:32
You could have a community where people could get back.
3:35
To one another and to learn from one another.
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And I think if I had to pick a single reason and and you might
3:40
fight me on this one. I'm a why someone should be a
3:43
member is get access to that Community.
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There's a lot of ways that that benefits you.
3:53
I my day job is, I'm a product manager.
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I look after a team of product managers and when we have a
3:59
question about identity things about, hey, how are people
4:03
really using this or that like, what's a real use case for this?
4:07
Kind of Technology. We can actually ask it in a safe
4:11
space and learn from other people.
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I mean, I've been doing identity for some Mumble, Mumble number
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of years and there's definitely things, I still don't know and
4:20
that's good and it's a safe space for me to ask a question.
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Say, like, do people really do use this like, so off profile.
4:27
I've never really seen it. What, what's a use case?
4:29
Help me out here and the same time, in the next moment I can
4:34
turn around say like, oh, hey I saw you had this problem here.
4:37
This is what I did in the past. And If that doesn't work and
4:41
then I'll take somebody else. I hate Lance's knows, maybe the
4:43
answer he's done this to right. So for me that community and the
4:46
ability to both give back and take from the collective
4:49
knowledge, that's really powerful.
4:52
Yeah, the the give back part I think is is really important and
4:55
I think it's beyond yet like all of the things that you described
4:59
are absolutely accurate. So I'm going to fight you on
5:01
them. I'm just going to extend my
5:02
little bit which is to say that there's technical value their,
5:06
right. How do I do this?
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I'm on site at Giant Axe. And I'm trying to integrate
5:11
product a and product B and both of vendors told me I can do this
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and I've tried and it doesn't work.
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And has anybody done it answer? Yeah.
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That's all great. The soft skills that go along
5:21
with developing a career in any industry, but I think it's
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particularly relevant in the identity industry.
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You know, how do I go pitch? My idea to Executive management,
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right. How do I get budget for this?
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I'm trying to hire somebody and I haven't done this before.
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How should? I interview them?
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I've got a difficult, you know. HR situation with one of my
5:41
staff. How do I like those things and
5:44
having contextual support like industry?
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Contextual support for those things, I think is tremendously
5:49
important. The other thing I'd say, and I
5:53
know this was something that you talked about a lot in the early
5:55
days. The end was it's tremendously
5:59
difficult for hiring organizations to identify to
6:05
nurture and to To I guess grow as distinct from nurturing,
6:13
those two things, a little different talent in the space
6:17
when there's when there's no reference material right, when
6:19
there's there's nothing to go around that and we're at a point
6:24
in the industry where that's, you know, identity is completely
6:27
foundational to everything that happens in the digital world and
6:31
we need those things to be to be happening.
6:34
So that we have a body of experienced.
6:38
Ethically, minded people. You two values driven people, I
6:41
should better say to help us build stuff.
6:45
I think the correct answer though for me was the slack
6:48
Channel, I guess, you know, Ian from your perspective, you're
6:52
probably the one that hit it close as for me was the that
6:54
that Community, right? It's all the people who are part
6:57
of it and outside and I'll give a Shameless plug, you know, not
7:00
only am I a member but a participant.
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Right? Is that the ID Pro slack channel
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has like the smartest people and you can like, asked any
7:08
question. It doesn't matter.
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About identity. But usually it is and you'll get
7:12
answers back. Yeah, exactly.
7:13
Is a variety of the topics we cover.
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Yeah, I think there's like, there's a cat one dog.
7:18
There's a dog one, but it is invaluable to me.
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As someone in the identity space to be able to say, hey, has
7:25
anybody seen this before or what are you working on or help me
7:31
articulate? This thing that I know is wrong
7:34
to a customer, right? Give me another reason.
7:36
Why there's something what you just said, triggered a thought,
7:38
which is and I had Put it together until actually right
7:41
now, which is we're here at this conference.
7:44
And when I was starting out go to a conference and you see
7:48
someone like a Lori Robinson or a Darren rolls, you like I can't
7:53
go talk to them. They just got off.
7:55
Stay, I can't go to. Are you kidding me?
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It's really imposing. and one of the funny things about slack is,
8:03
Ideas is such a names and an end and Avatar picture.
8:06
Right? You don't happen to know that
8:07
like I'm trying to think about who I can call it, like the
8:10
torrio is who he is, unless you're really in it and that
8:15
maybe someone could be really intimidated, go talk to.
8:18
But in that space, you can be like, hey, um, I think he might
8:22
know something about this, could you help?
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I've never seen anyone respond know, even if they don't know
8:28
the answer, right? So, it takes away a certain kind
8:30
of in person. Action.
8:34
And and this is one of the reasons why I did start.
8:36
This was not everyone has the luxury of coming to a conference
8:39
like this. Not everyone has the budget.
8:42
Not everyone has the awareness of these things and so how do
8:46
you democratize some of that access to knowledge?
8:49
Because We're not went to be Wizards, right?
8:53
This is not meant to be something that you have to
8:57
really suffer to learn. It's far too valuable and there
9:03
is so not enough Talent worked Force out there.
9:06
So the more we can get the better and no one is diminished
9:09
by giving back, and I think that's like environment.
9:12
And the community is large, the newsletter the body of
9:14
knowledge. Everybody benefits from that.
9:17
I think one thing I've noticed about the community Beavis like
9:21
channel is that its place for not just for program managers or
9:26
just for analysts or just for engineers.
9:29
It's everybody. Everybody kind of fits into the
9:32
soup. Yeah.
9:34
Yeah. And I think it's increasingly
9:36
important that we attract that that breadth of perspective,
9:39
right? Like like people come to the
9:41
industry with very, very different backgrounds.
9:43
Very different I guess needs requirements.
9:46
And in whatever particular job it is that they're doing at that
9:49
time. The more we understand what
9:55
those drivers are, and the fact that they are different, the
9:59
better, the products are the solutions, are that we build.
10:03
Yeah. What, you're one of the things
10:05
we saw. We run a skill survey every year
10:09
where we ask people, hey, what are the, what are the technical
10:12
and non-technical skills that have made you a better identity
10:14
practitioner? What what is of interest to you
10:16
to learn about what is interest to priority to your Enterprise
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and one of the things we think we are seeing is two different
10:25
kinds of identity practitioner people that operate the
10:28
Machinery, right? I run a ginormous IDP
10:31
infrastructure for a big pharmaceutical company and I own
10:35
a provisioning product and you know, and they operated but we
10:40
think we're seeing in this year's data and it actually kind
10:43
of pans out to historical is another.
10:46
Kind of practitioner says, I am applying identity stuff to other
10:52
problems too. Privacy issues to sort of
10:59
marketing consent, to mobile applications to API surfaces and
11:06
full disclosure any. And I write the report we could
11:09
be dramatically off on this, but I think there's a day or their
11:14
of, we're starting to see different flavors of
11:16
practitioners. And so, to Andy's point Not
11:22
having like, oh, this is just for a flavor, right?
11:26
There's this, you know, that of how you do what you do.
11:30
Also to me, reflects the fact that this problem dealing with
11:34
digital identity is super complex, it has so many
11:37
different facets and those all have different relationships,
11:40
different parts of the business in the mission in this and what
11:43
you do. And so we can't just say, like,
11:46
oh no, and identity practitioner, you know, has to
11:49
be like this because Not that the nature of the discipline
11:52
requires a multidisciplinary approach.
11:55
Actually. Yeah.
11:56
No, I agree and I think there's another thing that's happening
11:59
as the industry grows, which is we're running into this problem,
12:04
which I guess within the industry, we used to
12:06
disambiguate very easily about the way that terms get
12:10
overloaded, right? So we talk about identity, we
12:12
talk about four of us here. Yeah, we asked a definition of
12:16
any term, we will get. I'm going to go with no less
12:18
than six definition. I I think it's highly likely and
12:21
this goes back to the episode. We ran a few months back.
12:23
Now, what is the difference between what is it?
12:26
Yeah, digital identity. And right hand, and I remember
12:28
hearing where he's and I was like, oh yeah.
12:29
What's you like you think he thought it was an easy question
12:32
to answer and then I was like, oh God, whoa, this goes deep,
12:36
right? Yeah.
12:36
So that definition of that terminology is totally different
12:40
everybody and it's becoming problematic because it used to
12:43
be that you were across enough of the things that were
12:46
happening in the space that you could design the, you ate, and
12:49
even conversation And even this week I've had, you know,
12:52
discussions with people who've been the entry for a long time
12:54
who are suddenly like wait. So, you know, when you talked
12:59
about identity in this context, did you mean x or y?
13:02
I alright, when you talked about authentication, were you talking
13:05
about specifically in an sc, a kind of Highly regulated
13:09
contacts, that was a different, you know, that knowledge sharing
13:15
that has to happen to help us all this Ambu and to help us
13:18
understand that we have to explain Better, especially
13:20
outside of the industry. What we mean is another value I
13:24
think that we get from from those conversations I had like
13:27
an elsewhere. I had a conversation this
13:29
morning with salty Veterans of the industry her like you do you
13:33
realize that in this Kim's back like we don't really Define this
13:36
term and this term and this term like Oh yeah, oh crap, it's like
13:42
and also there's like super vagueness here here and here and
13:45
so it's important for listeners who are maybe newer the
13:50
industry. Like don't let the terminology
13:54
scare you off. If only because a salty veteran,
13:57
still screw things up and don't necessarily see our blind spots
14:01
but I think the thing for practitioners to be able to
14:04
describe the outcome, the application of the identity
14:08
technology and whatever it is. As the first order and then you
14:13
know whether you call it an SP or an RP May reveal some
14:19
religious stripes or cultural upbringing but it doesn't really
14:22
matter. At the end of the day, what it
14:24
is all we're going to do over the seamless experience to all
14:26
of our customers and XYZ is going to happen.
14:28
It's gonna be great and we're going to increase conversion by
14:30
50%. That's the outcome.
14:32
We want to be able to express, I think so, you mentioned, two
14:37
different sorts of populations. Again, I think there's a third
14:40
population that sort of sits in between the identity
14:43
practitioner, the super technical IDP genius, right?
14:47
Or the person who is taking identity principles and using
14:50
than elsewhere privacy consent, which you mentioned.
14:53
I think there's a third population, it sits in the
14:54
middle of that. I am program.
14:57
Managers project managers business analysts business
15:00
analysts, those types of folks who are not technical, Maybe by
15:04
Nature, they're not configuring an IDP to use sam'l oauth stuff.
15:09
Up MFA. But what they are doing is
15:12
getting the message, you know, from the engineers to the
15:15
business, to the executives, to the public etcetera.
15:19
You know, I kind of liken is an IM program manager, you're out
15:22
there, shaking hands and kissing babies.
15:24
You don't need to be the smartest person in the world,
15:26
but you need to be a good communicator.
15:27
You need to be able to understand it at least and be
15:29
able to communicate it to other folks out there.
15:32
I think sometimes when I see missing in a lot of
15:35
organizations is what are we doing to help those folks?
15:39
Because there is such a broad spread across people in the
15:42
identity space. You don't need to know all the
15:46
things of skim right or all the things of oauth or sam'l or you
15:50
know XYZ Fido, right? Whatever the the real thing is
15:53
behind, passkeys, do you need to know how it works?
15:57
People that does a real thing by passkeys.
15:59
Right, what? Yeah, that's there's this thing,
16:01
right? That's not, we're all friends
16:04
here but it's that. It's that glue.
16:07
That, you know, basically takes the specs from Engineers and
16:10
works with the customers, right? To quote unquote office space
16:13
and of course, you know, my own, what are we being attacked by?
16:16
But so, as just to know that this is a live recording, we are
16:21
now seeing Window Washers attack the windows in our room here and
16:24
hopefully, it doesn't cause too much of a distraction for us too
16:27
late, but that third population is really one that concerns me
16:32
because that's the population that I feel like I have the most
16:35
Affinity towards. You know, I've rolled out
16:37
identity platforms, of course before, But I'm more on the
16:40
business side of identity now and working with boards, you
16:43
know, other Executives soliciting and getting feedback
16:47
and trying to drive the message forward.
16:49
You know, what are we doing to help that role?
16:52
Because I see that as critical to getting anything done with
16:55
that organization. How are you going to go get
16:56
budget? You need to be able to sell it.
16:58
If you don't, people sell it. It's never going to happen or is
17:01
going to happen too late, and you're continuously in this Rat
17:04
Race where you're always behind, if I could turn my two sons so
17:07
near, I think, The role of I am program manager or whatever the
17:14
role from company to company is going to vary.
17:17
This is where I think we kind of can transition into the
17:20
conversation around CID Pro, which is it can help establish.
17:26
What that Baseline of identity management best practices basic
17:31
knowledge and make that consistent across the industry.
17:34
So kind of throwing it 2nd, you know, CID Pro, maybe give it
17:39
back Around on what it is and what it's meant to accomplish.
17:42
Yeah, so that the Cipro again, when it Pros, originally set up,
17:47
one of the things that we very much had in mind, we're all
17:51
trying to cope with the window washers, it's nothing.
17:54
One of the things we had in mind was that there was no vendor
18:00
independent training, right? No, vendor Independent Learning
18:03
material. Now, I want to be clear a lot of
18:05
the vendors and particularly in the earlier days of the Rewrite,
18:10
some of the boutique the niche vendors as were then really did
18:14
an excellent job at putting material out for the community.
18:16
That was valuable that was well written.
18:18
It was well-constructed, it was necessarily biased rate and I
18:21
don't say that in a pejorative sense at all.
18:23
It just is it's naturally, you're going to write about your
18:25
own products, right? And we learned very early on
18:28
actually in the skill survey, supported the hypothesis that we
18:33
had the practitioners were really looking for, you know,
18:37
some independent vendor-neutral. All knowledge and both they and
18:44
their employers were starting to look for a mechanism for them to
18:48
be able to demonstrate that they had that basic level of
18:52
knowledge and really nothing existed, the industry in the
18:55
industry, at that time to do that.
18:57
So we yes last year, right? Am I out by you?
19:04
You're a party here. I'm at by.
19:06
Yeah. Earlier this year.
19:08
No, two years ago correct? I'm at by ear in the other
19:11
direction. Yes, this is the whole left,
19:13
right? Thing.
19:13
That's been very complicated this week.
19:15
You drive on the wrong side of the road.
19:17
I know what can I say? Um, we invented driving now
19:24
that's a look. I haven't seen how the English
19:26
invented driving. If it was a gift right now, it
19:31
would be the one of the brain exploding with Ian right now.
19:34
Yeah, well I'm gonna go with. Do you have a flag and then I'm
19:36
going to move on. Um, so we a couple of years ago,
19:41
we finally got around to building out the first version
19:46
of a certification program for digital identity professionals,
19:50
right? So that's what the Cipro is.
19:52
You can go take it today. It's designed for practitioners
19:56
who've got a couple of years of experience in the industry and
19:59
it validates a broad set of Baseline knowledge that we would
20:04
expect the industry would expect that employers would expect T'
20:08
that practitioner to have there's a set of supporting
20:12
materials that go along with that yes in the form of the body
20:15
of knowledge which is all peer-reviewed and practitioner
20:17
written. But also we point to a set of
20:20
other publicly available non-biased vendor-neutral
20:26
reference material that people can go use.
20:29
Now, one of the things that you started to point out a minute
20:32
ago, is that yeah that's great for the technical professional.
20:38
And I think we'll start to look at some ways that we can expand
20:41
the Cipro offering over the next few years and whether that's
20:45
more Technical and more depth or whatever.
20:47
But you look at some of the other organizations that Ian
20:51
spoke to earlier on and the security space and the Privacy
20:53
space. And you start to see that
20:55
they've rolled out programs for managers, right?
20:59
So, I happen to hold some certifications in privacy from
21:04
the IEP and one of those is a cipm, right?
21:07
So certified The Privacy program manager, certification.
21:13
And I think, you know, that's one of the things that we might
21:16
want to look at is okay. Yet we can serve the technical
21:19
community. That's great.
21:21
How do we also help people grow and develop in that, you know,
21:24
oversight, governance kind of role.
21:26
So I might want to push back on something.
21:30
You said, which was about the sort of program managers and the
21:35
need for them to be More identity, where so yesterday, I
21:42
had the privilege of talking about sales forces MFA
21:47
requirements, at our rollout for essentially requiring, all of
21:50
our customers to use strong MFA, when they access their products.
21:54
And one of the points I make is that the program team that is
21:59
continuing to operate. This program are not identity
22:03
experts or even that familiar. They were also.
22:09
Some of them non-technical. In fact a lot that was an
22:12
intentional decision guests and know.
22:17
It was intentional in that we needed a program staff.
22:22
There was a notion within Salesforce of adoption programs.
22:27
So like large-scale change in the products and sometimes came
22:32
with these adoption programs. For example, we changed our UI
22:37
layer across. Whole app that meant.
22:40
How you built components to extend the platform because we
22:43
earlier platform as a service, as well as a SASS.
22:45
And so when we change that technology was a real sea
22:47
change. So there's an adoption program
22:49
on that to get people to use the new ux and then to start
22:52
building it and the experiments. So, we knew we needed an
22:56
adoption program for this. However, those people were
23:01
experts in, if you want to touch the entire customer base and
23:04
affect change, these are practices to go do that.
23:08
And we know who to go talk to to enlist the next set of people
23:12
are going to need to help us do that.
23:13
Now, I will not first decision was made and it was not my
23:18
decision to make, right? So I was at this point, a the
23:23
subject matter expert and product lead for the the largest
23:27
of the sort of surface Is in the products.
23:32
I like it. Right?
23:34
And and this was a good moment for me professionally, like I
23:37
was like, nope, this is going to work.
23:39
I really was a bit opposite about it and it turns out and
23:44
the reason why I was not pleased about it was that I felt like
23:47
gosh, my folks who should be focusing on Building Product and
23:52
figuring out, roadmaps are how we can deliver.
23:53
These things are gonna spend a ton of time, do an identity 101.
23:59
Getting this program team up to speed and, you know, we're not
24:02
going to be doing the work. I was right in that we did spend
24:08
a lot of time to do the identity 101, but I was very much wrong
24:11
in that. I didn't think that was the
24:13
work, but it was the work because all of those
24:16
conversations that we have with our program team, we then had to
24:19
go have with our customers. Our customers are not identity
24:22
practitioners. Our customers, especially their
24:25
admins are not deeply steeped in MFA.
24:29
Absolutely. Not like they're just trying to
24:31
complete the mission of their business.
24:33
You know, whether there are nonprofit, public sector private
24:36
sector in the matter, what year it is.
24:38
They're just trying to get on with their day and do it as
24:40
safely as possible to protect themselves and their customers
24:42
information. And so all the conversations we
24:45
had internally, we replayed externally.
24:48
So that was the work we needed to do.
24:50
So I am of mixed Minds about saying, hey look, these big kind
24:55
of identity programs, should you stop it with more identity, SME
25:00
types, or people that really know how to make the trains run.
25:03
Run and I think there's a healthy blend their we backed
25:10
into it. I would say I mean I don't want
25:12
to say like there's some grand plan but a healthy mix is really
25:17
good because what you end up with is a diverse set of folks
25:20
around the work that needs to be done or the hey, this is the
25:24
email blast is going to go out and all the my team looks at it
25:27
as like, Yeah. Oh change that because that's
25:31
not exactly how the flow works. Then were guaranteed comes and
25:35
goes I can't even make sense of the first sentence.
25:38
Let alone get to whatever the hell you just pointed at right
25:41
and so if you didn't have that we wondered how the same
25:45
response because people died, literally don't know how to
25:49
process what you're telling me to do that made a lot of sense
25:52
to me when you were talking about that because I thought
25:55
about how many times the identity Matrix, Management team
26:01
doesn't include non-identity people and identity.
26:04
People are tend to be more technical, right?
26:07
And they know how to change their password deal with all the
26:11
issues that you might run into. Oh, you know, figure out your
26:14
own problems and users don't necessarily even in the
26:18
Enterprise especially when you're talking about customers.
26:20
They can be very low Tech folks. Oh yeah, that really made a lot
26:24
of sense to me. Yeah.
26:26
And it's interesting, this is come up a lot.
26:29
Not actually in the context of this week, right?
26:31
So a number of the things we've seen presented have been around
26:33
some of the new password list. The passkeys, those kinds of
26:37
things and the challenge of effectively, retraining a global
26:44
user base in how not to use a password, which is what we've
26:47
been training them to do for the last 30. 40, 50 years is an
26:51
interesting one and you can see from a lot of the work that's
26:54
been presented this week. The people have been thinking
26:56
about that more from a Not more from but very much in a how do
27:03
we bake that in at the technical design level rather than having
27:07
to come back around later and say, okay, we made this thing,
27:10
let me explain how it works, right?
27:12
Because it's very difficult to do that.
27:15
So I agree with you and I think we have to be very mindful of
27:22
the non-technical end-user that we're trying to enable.
27:27
So, really relevant to this week.
27:30
I believe, what you say is true. However, here's the challenge.
27:36
Passkeys, things like that. Pastoralists in general.
27:40
But specific to pass Keys. The the good work that people
27:44
like Apple and Google and Microsoft are doing to
27:47
facilitate the common operating systems, the common browsers to
27:51
support. This is amazing. but there's an
27:56
interesting rub and it's gonna it's gonna sort of chief us as
28:00
an industry for about 18 months to maybe three years depending
28:04
on how things go, which is while Google and apple and Microsoft
28:09
can document like, hey, this is the passkey experience, it's
28:13
going to the responsibility is going to fall on those who adopt
28:16
the technology to actually explain it to the, in the
28:20
context of their customers, or their citizens, or their
28:22
students, and Those people are not necessarily in the place to
28:28
do that. I don't have an infinite Supply
28:31
dark Riders. I don't have a name from supply
28:32
of these Yaks things, and it's hard for me to say, oh, well,
28:36
this is what you're going to see on this device with this browser
28:39
at Amy change the browser, it looks likely different school
28:41
like this. I know there's still work to be
28:44
done there. So I do think a challenge of
28:47
yes, we as identity, practitioners need to be formal
28:51
cards and explain these Technologies to non-identity
28:54
folk. We also, there is also another
28:57
order of that, which is to say, I think we have to also start
29:02
giving our customers those of us who provide identity technology
29:06
is giving her customers language to talk about this with their
29:09
customers. Yeah, that's a fair point.
29:14
I I do think in the case of at least.
29:17
So it was funny a little earlier on Ian was gesturing as he said,
29:21
SME subject matter expert and pointed at me which is
29:24
hysterical and I'm not particularly in this in this
29:28
realm, but I do think that some of the work that's gone on with
29:33
persky's is really so simple for the end user to adopt that we
29:39
may not have to do that. Here's hoping but yeah, I mean I
29:44
like, I'm not sure that I'm optimistic, but I do think that
29:47
there are some other things that are emerging where I agree with
29:51
you, like enabling the customer-facing Enterprise to
29:59
do, what they need to do is going to be a really, really big
30:01
piece of this puzzle. Do you think the success of
30:07
passkeys could further drive people to be tied to an existing
30:14
ecosystem? So, if you're using Apple
30:16
devices, you're just going to be that much more locked into it or
30:20
and maybe that's just the case. Anyway, I mean, I'm I've used
30:24
Apple for all of my personal devices and it's because every
30:28
service they pay for, goes across all the services.
30:31
I'm just wondering in your Passkeys is just going to
30:34
further drive that if that's a good thing overall or not.
30:39
So good. So full disclosure, I have no
30:44
magic inside a knowledge other than the stuff that I've seen
30:47
presented here this week. And I absolutely understand
30:54
where that concern comes from. There was an eyesore at
30:59
literally this morning a presentation I want to say it
31:01
was Christian Brown from Google that gave it, but I wouldn't
31:05
swear to it and he walked through an explanation and
31:11
demonstrated the sharing of a passkey across two different
31:16
platforms. It was an Android device and a
31:18
Macbook. I think.
31:21
Is it beautiful clean completely drop dead simple.
31:26
My grandmother should do it experience today.
31:30
No, then again, it was in beta or Sir, for those of you that
31:36
are fun, but was it reassuring in terms of?
31:42
Yeah, no, we get this. And it has to work seamlessly in
31:46
the same way. That frankly, a password today,
31:49
work seamlessly across seamlessly air quotes, across
31:53
multiple devices, right? And I've heard a lot of noise
31:57
from, you know, the folks that are deeply engaged in, these
32:00
efforts, both on the vendor side and just in the standards for
32:03
see that, that's a well-understood challenge and
32:08
not the corner that they all want to paint themselves into.
32:11
So the I share the concern but I'm optimistic that we're not
32:14
going to end up in that particular space.
32:17
The other thing that I've seen today is and I haven't laid Hive
32:21
hands on it directly, but it's War me.
32:24
It's heartwarming to see that there's thought there is not
32:27
only. Is it working across echo system
32:30
at the check the moment of the challenge but actually, Away to
32:34
see that other echo system with that credential.
32:38
So that you don't have to do that awkward or somewhat awkward
32:41
or to be determined less awkward motion, right?
32:45
So it's one thing to say like oh yeah, you can kind of like
32:49
Bluetooth your phone to the thing to do.
32:51
The thing for that challenge was to make you be like I never want
32:54
to do that again. It's another thing to say, once
32:58
you do that, you've actually cross-pollinated if you will and
33:01
you've done it securely. Lee.
33:03
And so now, when you're in that, okay system, you can take care
33:06
of that into that echo system and you don't have to do, that
33:09
awkward gesture again. I want to see that come to
33:11
fruition, you know, and I think people are working towards that
33:15
but it was good to see that explicitly call that.
33:17
I like it's not just a like oh it's a one-time thing.
33:20
It's no this is actually a moment when we can actually
33:23
Bridge those ecosystems. I think that's powerful if it
33:26
comes to if it really comes to pass I think I hear anything
33:28
else. That's iterative right?
33:29
I think this is really just sort of the first version of passkey
33:32
and my mind. The next version will probably
33:34
have and I don't want to put words in Fido Mouse but the
33:37
cross-platform thing I think is extremely important, not
33:40
everyone is working with in one ecosystem so they need a way to
33:43
be able to transport these across different platforms.
33:45
It needs to be easy enough, though that your grandmother can
33:50
do it, right. I think this is where I
33:52
appreciate what Apple has done for Biometrics when it comes to
33:55
face ID and with the, you know, Touch ID, they made it a simple
33:59
where everyone gets it, right? It's no longer foreign.
34:03
You to receive a prompt on your iPhone that you have a second
34:05
Factor authentication to do. I think the thing I've talked
34:09
about this, I guess it was a couple of years ago, maybe
34:12
virtual identity versus I can't quite remember something that's
34:15
sort of like what is the next ten years look like in one of
34:17
the things that I may dig into this little bit more next year
34:20
is there's a, there's a change happening in the way, we
34:26
identify ourselves. Just things that ceremony is now
34:32
Inconsistent. Because it's in transition,
34:35
right? For a time it was there's a box
34:38
here. What goes?
34:39
They're using it. There's a box here.
34:40
What goes there? Password, two boxes.
34:42
There should only be two boxes and then Eric Google's like what
34:48
if there was one box and like everyone lost their damn mind.
34:54
Flash Forward. Apple has done what they've done
34:56
with Biometrics. Google has done what they've
34:57
done an Android. And now the way I get to things
35:01
is Replete. Right?
35:03
There's all of these different ways to do this and then you get
35:06
coffee when you're like smart TV.
35:09
It's me. Do I want the app that app?
35:12
No, not that, that app. No, I don't want enter my
35:14
password there. Please don't make me enter my
35:16
password there because it's like 65 characters could take all
35:18
week and the show will be over. So the fight is on right now,
35:22
sorry, that's not the right word, the transition is on right
35:25
now of what are those new ceremonies?
35:28
Is? There one to rule them all?
35:29
Is there multiple? That is causing the knees.
35:34
It's causing us using us as practitioners.
35:36
And so, I think there's a knee-jerk reaction says, oh,
35:39
that implementation of passkeys, not perfect.
35:41
Well, of course, not, things are still in motion.
35:47
But the next couple of years are going to be, I think
35:50
uncomfortable because there won't be one ceremony and
35:55
because of that, that means if you're rolling out services to
35:58
citizens to students to customers, you're going to need
36:00
to accommodate for that or at least explain that.
36:03
And when you're dealing with your parents gave you like, okay
36:05
what do I see on? All right.
36:07
Yeah, that one. Okay, so this is what's gonna
36:09
happen. We'll get through it, but I
36:11
think as practitioners especially roaming the Halls are
36:13
similar. She like, oh boy.
36:16
Yeah. Could be a thing but I know that
36:17
where we're going is going to be better than the two box
36:20
experience. But if we're constantly in this
36:23
state of change, when do you jump in and bite the bullet and
36:27
say, okay, I'm along for the ride.
36:28
If we know with that, there's going to be a next version of
36:32
something. Right?
36:34
When do I jump in the water? You might not have a choice
36:37
because the ways in which you're accessing those Services, the
36:42
designers of those systems, the vendors of those Technologies
36:45
are going to be Make decisions and good, bad or indifferent.
36:50
You're kind of along for the ride and in some ways, and
36:53
that's not necessarily a good thing, and it is important to
36:56
note, it may not work for everybody.
37:01
There are still going to be plenty of challenges of
37:06
different populations in different use cases and
37:08
different geographies. Where passkey isn't the right
37:12
thing. That's okay too.
37:15
We just have to acknowledge it like There is going to be no
37:19
one. Probably most likely not going
37:22
to be one ring to rule them all, but losing sight of the fact,
37:27
right? If forgetting the fact that yes,
37:30
well, this addresses Western population to the tune of 80 90
37:34
percent agree, but it doesn't work well, in a Multi-Device
37:39
mobile-only sub-Saharan Africa scenario, we lose sight of that,
37:44
then we get in trouble, right? This is why things like, what
37:46
the women and identities. Study of inclusive.
37:50
I'm gonna get the name wrong engine to diversity increase.
37:53
No, it's not well inclusively study.
37:56
They did about essentially why you need why it's imperative
38:00
that you have diverse groups, building an energy solutions is
38:03
because without those voices and those eyes on things you're
38:08
going to miss things and identity things, especially when
38:11
it comes to, how you prove your citizenship, how you express
38:14
your citizenship, how you express your legal personhood
38:17
are Our so crucial that. We've got to always keep that
38:21
inside. Yeah, and I think to come back
38:25
to the original question there but from the implementer side
38:29
rather than the user side, right?
38:31
So this is one of those things we look at in the skill survey
38:34
in terms of asking practitioners what are you interested in
38:40
learning and working on over the next three years and
38:44
practitioners what are your Enterprises Looking at him,
38:48
working on over the next three years and we typically see an
38:51
interesting Gap in those answers, right?
38:55
Like consistently your every year, there's a gap between
38:58
between those things, right? The things that practitioners
39:00
are interested in, not necessarily the same things that
39:03
are no prizes are interested in are some of, that's probably
39:05
natural. But I think my sense is that as
39:10
with all of these new things that come up, right?
39:12
Practitioners are going to be interested in understanding.
39:14
What they are taking that back and thinking about The the
39:19
project or Enterprise or business or sectoral context to
39:23
that they operate in and saying. Right, this is either a, a thing
39:27
that we're definitely going to need to do at some point.
39:29
We just got to figure out how and when or be mmm watching
39:33
brief. Let's wait and see where it
39:34
goes. My sense is to Ians point.
39:39
This is probably one of those things where it's going to
39:41
happen. It's really now going to be a
39:43
case of working out, okay? How and when for the given user
39:47
community? That I serve.
39:52
Some of the edge cases that Ian talks about on not edge cases.
39:58
They are. And I'm not suggesting.
40:00
I know you in. Did not say that they were.
40:03
I'm just trying to clarify for The Listener that then knowledge
40:07
cases, right? These are huge.
40:09
Global populations that operate in very different ways to how we
40:13
operate. And we really need to start very
40:17
carefully. Thinking about every single
40:19
solution that we put out in the market, whether it's a vendor
40:22
Product in the space or, you know, a service that we're
40:26
offering commercially, whatever has to account for those for
40:31
those populations. And frankly, in many cases, I
40:33
think we'll end up making better products because of it from a
40:36
skill survey standpoint. Was there, anything else that
40:39
jumped out? As far as you mentioned, this
40:41
gap between what, you know, what individuals want to learn versus
40:46
what really organization should be focusing on or what they say.
40:48
At least what those individuals think their organizations
40:51
focusing on what? I think is probably where the
40:52
distinction, I want to draw it in is because I think about it
40:54
from a board perspective as part of an organization, right?
40:59
Or the c-suite or Executives, whatever, you know, group is
41:02
making decisions. What are they, what are they
41:05
looking at from a data perspective?
41:07
Because I know it's important to them, I'm seeing a lot more
41:11
boards that are focused on what is their identity, access
41:13
management program. Look like it.
41:14
There are specific organization, but if I went and asked, you
41:18
know, a bunch of seashells, something like passkeys would
41:21
not even be. Would be like something else
41:23
they would be like, oh, we need to do IGA or access reviews or
41:28
we need to get MFA in place, right?
41:29
They're not thinking about it in those very specific terms,
41:32
they're thinking it more at a macro level and saying, we need
41:35
to be better at knowing who has access to what let me.
41:39
Let me take a swing at this year's results by the way.
41:45
Lester up. These are all freely available.
41:46
Good idea. Pro dorky can get the skill
41:49
survey number one response, So the question we ask is to the
41:53
practice we ask, okay? So what are the top related
41:56
identity? Related priorities for your
41:59
organization when you work with over the next 18 months and sort
42:03
of 123 are IGA, a dirty government Administration and Fa
42:07
and then I dasn't clutter identity management.
42:10
Now I'm at that was number one last year.
42:11
We think it basically was a straight response.
42:15
And actually number one, to two years in a row, straight
42:17
response to the pandemic, right? I need a control because I got
42:22
Course everywhere and if I want to do this a zero trust
42:25
thingamabob or whatever the hell that is like I need some if I go
42:29
right, people ran fine great. So let's move down and I think
42:32
what we're seeing is a return to more classic risk management on
42:38
the part of boards and on and it shop saying let's we upped our
42:43
governance game, maybe a little bit, this pandemic is more
42:45
important. Let's not lose sight of the fact
42:47
that maybe we did have a material finding maybe we aren't
42:50
as good about some of these things.
42:52
It's not lose sight of that. And then, I'd as which, I think
42:55
dropped two positions and I'm doing that for memory on the
42:59
previous ones to me is about the normal Cadence, of when identity
43:05
infrastructure gets replaced out and people saying, look what we
43:09
got. Okay, but we don't have the kind
43:12
of agility that we need and so I think people are really going
43:16
towards, I'd as as an agility seeking exercise.
43:19
Now, this is in Ask to what the individuals responded
43:26
individuals top three decentralized and or self
43:30
Sovereign identity. I'd as an identity standards and
43:34
verified credentials actually tied for third there.
43:37
So I'd as in the second position to we think is a response to the
43:42
market. It was very, very popular for a
43:45
couple years in a row and I think people just said, look,
43:47
I've been doing On-prem IBM, Tivoli access manager.
43:54
Deployments, I know there's that product.
43:55
Does it exist anymore? Like I'm a Tim Tam guy and I'm
43:59
just living on on-prem. I gotta I gotta okay, right.
44:03
Because the clearly people are hiring for in certain ideas,
44:06
vendor here. Okay, fine.
44:09
That's a reasonable response. The sort of decentralized
44:13
verified credential thing. I think is a in that community
44:17
in our community. People are curious like, hey,
44:19
there's there's a lot going on here.
44:22
I don't know, I don't know where to begin life.
44:24
So I want to go like, really dig into that.
44:26
Like we are a curious punch. That's a really, really
44:29
important. Thing is a personally seeing
44:33
identity standards development as third.
44:37
I have no good explanation for that one and and I am so many
44:42
conflicting thoughts of like, that would be awesome.
44:45
If we got more people to do the work, we really do.
44:47
Need it cross the board. Other kind of like are you are
44:52
you sure? You know what you're getting
44:55
into? Look at all these beautiful
44:57
people that were once beautiful and be.
45:00
And now look at them because they just do nothing but
45:02
standards and they're so crotchety and I'm presuming that
45:05
Victoria is the exception that proves The rule here in.
45:08
Yes. Yes of course.
45:10
And others that will come and find me later today but I the
45:14
standard sing. I feel like if that's true,
45:16
right people? Like no, I want to get more
45:18
involved in standards that represents an amazing
45:21
opportunity to bring those diversities cases back into
45:24
bodies that maybe didn't have the most diverse representation
45:27
when we were building those standards.
45:29
That's what we need, right? We need the next generation of
45:31
people who are going to work on those things.
45:32
The next generation of I generati, who don't even know
45:36
who they We don't even know who they are yet.
45:38
Maybe they don't know themselves and who they all probably aren't
45:40
even in the industry yet. And and may come at this from a
45:44
really, really different background and perspective.
45:47
Right. And I hope that that's true
45:48
because they'll say a lot of good things about, you know, how
45:51
things are developing. So case simply last week, I was
45:55
taking some folks on my team through some things I would to
45:59
doing with our skill implementation and someone who's
46:02
a little bit younger said, Skip just feel so heavy.
46:08
And like, what is like? You're feels like it was made by
46:10
XML people. I like, I'm gonna let that slide
46:14
for a minute because the person in question happened ahead of
46:18
the exact Mo background, I'm like, well, okay, pot you want
46:20
to talk about the kettle being black, but then, we're going to
46:23
toast of Eve was probably like, just like that's not cool, not
46:26
cool. In skim you can filter for
46:29
attributes and basically it's just straight up ldap and He's
46:34
like see. See, look and those are like
46:35
ldap people in there like Kai, you're not wrong.
46:39
But there was that moment of like, whoa, I've been sitting
46:41
way too close to this to not even like see that or find it
46:44
funny. I can't now a little time and
46:46
alcohol. But new folks coming into this
46:50
who are going to. Look at the way we do things and
46:52
say, like gosh, why did we do this?
46:54
I mean, I think a lot of Us kid about the transition from angle.
46:57
Brackets two curly braces, the XML to Json.
47:01
Migration of all of our standards.
47:03
Yeah, a little Being here and there.
47:05
But in that process, in that reinvention of the wheel, we're
47:08
bringing new voices into the process, which means we're gonna
47:11
get a better product. Yeah, I agree.
47:14
I also think there's always a caution about just because we
47:17
used to do it a way before, doesn't mean we have to do it
47:21
differently tomorrow, right? Like sometimes there were good
47:23
design reasons why things were done a certain way and there's a
47:26
risk in forgetting that history, but it's important to question
47:33
it. And that brings me a little bit
47:36
to some observations that you made a second ago about boards
47:41
and she sews and Executives. I think there are some really
47:50
interesting questions to start to ask about the way that the
47:55
c-suite and the way that boards and I distinguish those two
47:58
things very, very carefully. Think about where Sits in their
48:05
landscape, right? Generally speaking historically,
48:09
I think it's been something that typically sets in the security
48:13
realm, right? It tends to be more about risk,
48:17
mitigation compliance, you know, security things.
48:24
I think we're getting to a point where the question boards
48:27
particularly need to be asking is how is this enabling our
48:33
strategy for the next and years. And Yeah.
48:38
How is it helping us? Mitigate some of the risks
48:40
around that strategy but those are business risks.
48:43
Not technical risks, not compliance risks there.
48:46
If we don't do this, our top-line business objectives,
48:50
we're not going to hit him, right?
48:53
I don't see boards asking that question and it's high time but
48:57
they should, they made me aware of those questions undoubtedly.
49:02
Yeah, I mean there's a massive education exercise to do that.
49:05
In the same way the Privacy, like the Privacy industry had to
49:07
go. Oh, through this now.
49:08
They were helped by regulation frankly, but you know that the
49:13
shift from there was no privacy representation on the board at
49:17
all, to every board has a DP 0, right?
49:21
Where's extremely rapid? But interestingly, most of those
49:26
certainly that I've observed are still acting in a Regulatory
49:33
Compliance risk, mitigation kind of mode.
49:36
It's very rare that you get A conversation, particularly at
49:39
board level around. Hey, how does privacy actually
49:43
make my business unique and better?
49:47
You know, I suspect that that, you know if this was privacy at
49:52
the center then we could talk about that for a while.
49:54
But that's our next venture you need to have you back for that
49:58
one? Yeah, you know.
50:00
It's the reason I bring it up is because those are the folks that
50:06
control the funding. And you can have the best team
50:09
in the world. The smartest people in the room,
50:11
the best tools. But unless there's resources
50:14
made available to actually put it in place, it's not happening.
50:17
So I would argue, those are the people that control priority.
50:22
Resource flows after that. And there is a subtle
50:25
difference. In my mind, have going to a
50:27
c-suite, going to the executive ranks and saying, I want you to
50:31
bless this as a priority. Versus IE 15 headcount to do a
50:37
thing. And one of the things that's in
50:41
the skill survey is about the needs around oral and written
50:44
communication, the kind of middle of the pack responses if
50:46
you will, but in my own experience, I'm writing more.
50:51
Now documents now artifacts almost that I did in any other
50:57
point in my career, except when I was an analyst and I wrote for
50:59
a living essentially, but it's around justifying priority.
51:05
And the ancillary part is that and this is the the resource
51:09
that I need. And so, what is the priority at
51:12
the board level of identity isn't a question?
51:16
I think that's being asked. I think we're getting different
51:19
forms of Application of identity.
51:21
What is the value of digital terms formation?
51:24
What is the value of US, mitigating certain kinds of
51:28
risks? And so I'm at peace with that in
51:32
some regards but I want or should there be more identity
51:35
questions being asked at those tears around bless this as a
51:38
priority. I think it's really time all the
51:41
prior to zation is really the goal right.
51:43
I do you bump something up the list when it comes time to move
51:47
things forward I know we've I think you also put it in terms
51:51
of business objectives because a lot of these topics are So
51:57
difficult that we have a hard time understanding them or
52:00
explain them to the next level up and then getting it to the
52:04
the board which doesn't have any contacts on why you should care
52:07
about investing in Identity or some of the specific areas of
52:11
identity. It's like they don't even want
52:13
to know the details, was it business objective that I'm
52:15
going after? Yeah, and I think that's, that's
52:18
why I was kind of talking earlier about that third
52:20
population, the glue, right? Who is going to the board and
52:24
helping them set, those priorities or advise them on
52:26
that. Can't you know it's it's a bunch
52:29
of I am Heroes that are typically running an
52:31
organization throat, identity standpoint, and they're doing
52:34
their best and sometimes it's a challenge to get things moving
52:38
forward. I know where you have been
52:41
waxing, poetic you're around a bunch of different stuff when I
52:43
start to let you guys go so you can enjoy the actual conference
52:46
itself. But before we go, we probably
52:49
want to end on a lighter note. So I'll throw a couple options
52:52
out there. I guess.
52:53
The first one is What is the weirdest thing you have eaten
53:00
sea cucumber Taiwanese, banquet for a friend of mines wedding?
53:05
One of the later courses and any attempts to actually chew it.
53:09
Just cost it to squirt to the other side of your mouth.
53:11
It was like a lovely sauce. It was really fun, but I'm like,
53:14
do you actually eat this thing? Or is it more like a Chase?
53:16
I'm not entirely sure. What that what they use case was
53:18
there. Yeah, I think I think mine's
53:21
going to be on a trip to Japan and it was late in the evening
53:24
we'd been out. It was End of the week, very
53:26
successful, everyone was super happy and and for those that
53:30
don't know, I speak Japanese, right?
53:33
So it was, I was in a kind of happy comfortable environment
53:37
and somebody goes, we're playing the game.
53:40
That always gets played which is let's see what we can get the
53:42
Foreigner to eat, right? And so we'd been through all the
53:44
usual things like tofu. Yeah, that's fine. 12, a goal
53:48
when you eat hamburgers all the time and it's very strange.
53:50
I know. Yeah.
53:51
And that fish and chips thing, you know, we done that the,
53:54
which is Fermented soybeans, which if you've never had it as
53:57
an experience and there is an eating technique, which you have
54:00
to know to you and then somebody says, hey, how about raw
54:05
chicken? Listen to the correct answer to
54:08
this question is, no, I think it's time for bed.
54:12
Do not say yes to the raw chicken, very bad plan.
54:16
I got to ask raw chicken. Okay.
54:18
What is the context for? I think that's what it tastes
54:21
like. It's like, literally It's like
54:26
just pluck, it yourself and know, it came in a bowl, I think
54:30
it was some kind of marinade, but it was entirely uncooked and
54:33
it wasn't like a Ceviche where you've got, you know, like lemon
54:36
and stuff. It was, it was, I mean, it
54:38
tasted great, the flight home the next day was bad.
54:43
But you know, I don't think that's a meal before a fight.
54:47
No, that's not a meal at all. I mean, just no, no, no, not
54:50
good. Jill about yourself.
54:52
There was a fusion restaurant in the cosmo in Las Vegas.
54:55
And it's a fusion of Chinese food and Mexican food.
54:59
And I got the fried oyster Taco, which I thought sounded
55:04
wonderful but they had some kind of sauce on it and it was the
55:08
most acidic thing I've ever eaten.
55:10
And as I was eating it, I kept thinking.
55:12
What is this doing to my teeth? I got about halfway through and
55:15
I stopped eating it. So Eight dollar Taco into the
55:18
trash can. Yeah, I remember that meal.
55:20
That was one of our see ya there.
55:23
I, you know, I can't think. Anything that I just haven't
55:26
been, super isn't a terrible question for me to answer,
55:28
because I just haven't been super adventurous on eating
55:31
things like that. I would say maybe a shrimp with
55:34
the head still on which you guys start some work.
55:37
Yeah, I mean that was a stretch for me.
55:39
I'm definitely not that courageous when it comes to our
55:43
things, but I'm willing to try things bone marrow.
55:45
I don't know if that's exotic, but sure, I'm getting nods
55:49
curtain, courtesy knobs in the room, so I'll take it.
55:51
All right, we'll go ahead and wrap it up for this episode.
55:55
Oh, thank God. The window washers here for
55:57
keeping it to a dull Roar. As we're having conversations
56:00
that we want to give a shout-out to Andrew and Adrienne and
56:02
others here at Fido for setting aside some space for us to
56:05
podcast that which is very cool. And then, definitely for Ian and
56:09
Andy joining us and waxing, poetic around a whole bunch of
56:12
different identity topics. If you're not familiar with ID
56:14
Pro, hopefully this helped, I definitely a big believer of the
56:18
mission of it. ID Pro dot-org go out.
56:21
Join the membership fee for just a slack Channel alone is With
56:25
it. So I totally would encourage
56:28
that. So with that, we'll go ahead and
56:29
leave it for this week. You find us on the web identity
56:32
of the center.com. We're on Twitter at idac podcast
56:35
and we'll talk with everyone in the next one.
56:41
Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast.
56:44
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
56:46
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.