Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5 E28 _ When a Firefighter Becomes an Arsonist_ The John “Pillow Pyro” Orr Story _ Part 2

Transcript

S5 E28 _ When a Firefighter Becomes an Arsonist_ The John “Pillow Pyro” Orr Story _ Part 2 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: No, Hi, I just realized I forgot to change my background.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Oh that's okay, I like it. It's fine. See, this
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: is what happens when we take like a couple of
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: days off. I don't know about you, but for me,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: when I take a couple of days off, everything just
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: like I don't know how to do anything anymore. I don't.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: And then top it off with having to get a
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: new laptop. Yeah, because my laptop was corrupted by something
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I downloaded from the internet and it.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: So no, it's not just kidding anyways. I know.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I just learned about porn. What you cannot watch porn
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: in Florida.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: You can't in Ohio now either, as of like yesterday,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I did not know that was a thing.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: How come adults, grown adults can't make their own decisions?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Wait what?
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know this is probably a topic for
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: a different time. Yeah, but I just moved to Florida,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and you let me know.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: They had to get a VPN because you can't watch
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: porn even as a thirty four year old male in Florida.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta, you gotta like put in your idea
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: and shit, no, thank you, okay, no, thank you. So
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: I did not know that you can. You just can't
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: use certain sites. All right, it's the Internet. That stuff
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: has been around since like the beginning of the Internet. Okay,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: like Gray, Sure that's gonna make a difference. But anyway,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: we're not here. We're not here for that. We're not
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: here for that. And look, we had an appearance.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Six say we had an apt and how th Cathie, Hello,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: lady in Gray, question to scream is just popping in
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: for a minute replay? Huh tell, oh, we got a
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: story for you. We do have a story. But everyone,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: the podcast where we dive into the most jaw dropping
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: true crime stories while sipping something smooth to take the
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: edge off. And also sometimes we go on rants. So
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: if you're new here, I'll just tell you upfront, be ready,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: there's rants.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: It happens.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, So, poor glass of wine, water, doctor pepper, whatever
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: you're drinking, lock your doors and let's unquirk the truth
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: behind some of the darkest crimes.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, hello friends, Hello, thanks for watching tonight. Now,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: before we begin, I think most of you another drill
• 3:07
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• 3:40
  Speaker 2: get our little pod noticed out there. And we appreciate
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: you guys as well. Terry, So I heard you on
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: a little vacation this week to California. Did you have fun?
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I did? I did. I had a great time.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I visited my boyfriend and I even got to visit
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a couple of spots related to this case.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Ooh, okay, let's share. And it was exciting, to say
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: the least. I love that Terry's California field trip. Yes,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I love that. It's okay, well tell us about it.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: So I went to College Hills in Glendale, the site
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: of that John or burned in June of nineteen ninety.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: But I also went.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: To the firehouse that is the Glendale fire Station forty two.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: What is hella interesting?
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Stay on this picture see the background the mountains behind
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: it kind of an area. Yes, the College's Hills fire
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: was close to that. Oh, it was close to that,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So I they went ahead and went over to see
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: where the College Hills fire happened. So what a lot
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: of people may not know about fires. If you're ever
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: wondering how they get named, they're named by something significant
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in that area. The College Hills fire happened right near
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: the campus of College Hill in I did not know
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: that the College Hill fire.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I never thought about them naming fires. I guess it's
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: because it's not really a thing here, But I just
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: I never.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: If it's a big fire that they have to go
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: out and pull a lot of resources to They named
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: them even in other states, so that way they can
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: put it on record and know what to call it.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: You can't just say, oh, fire twenty six that YadA,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: YadA YadA.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: They give them names, okay, but not pull like hurricane names. Yes,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: they're not cool. I also this fire department there that
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: does not look like a typical fire department. It doesn't
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: even look like a truck would fit in there. Guys.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I went by it four times and kept you turning
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: and was like, oh my god, Google Maps, you are
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: so freaking stupid. Why can I not find it? It's
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: right next to houses.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Right It doesn't even look like a truck if I
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: cross from a park.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: And I had shared the picture of the park because
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: I was like, it's right across from a park in
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: a neighborhood, so right there, that is right by the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: fire station. Okay, but how they fit those fire trucks
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: up that little curving drive. They have some really good drivers,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: is all I'm saying.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's crazy.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I was going to go and knock on the door
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: at the fire station, but when I because I had
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: to pay for parking next to it and walk over.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: So yes, I had to pay for parking, walked over
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: and you see a big yellow Hummer there, and then
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: there was a brand new Corvette there.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I got a little.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Bit intimidated because I was like, are the higher level
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: fire cops here? Is like the mayor here? Fire that's
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: not regular firefighters vehicles?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Oh no, not here either, not here?
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: So I did not go and knock on it, but
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I did do a little grand finale. I did make
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: a video. Oh there is the Ace Hardware. So that
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: was the home of Ali's where the four people died.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Always went out of business. M So they rebuilt and
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: they went out of business and Ace Hardware took over.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's like the biggest Ace hardware I've ever seen.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I got out and asked two people questions about the fire,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: and I don't know if I looked suspicious, but they
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: turned around and walked off and said no comment.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Both of them interesting.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I found that interesting, and then I got to thinking
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: maybe it's because I had a cell phone and not
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: like a big camera. M So they, you know, they
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: were like when she some TikToker, some YouTuber is what yeah,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll say this.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I don't like people coming up to me. I would
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: be very skeptical, skeptical that somebody's trying to get me
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: with it. Gotcha on a phone for freaking views and likes,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: and then I'm going to be on public freak out
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: on Reddit, and that is just going to go. I
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: could record.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I just the phone in my hand, and I said, hey,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: would you mind if I recorded audio. I wanted to
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: ask you a couple of questions about.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: The Allies fire here. No comment.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: So the next one I had my phone up and
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I was like, hey, can I ask you a question?
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: And went into my spell no comment and turned around
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: walked off. So I decided I was dressed in shorts,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: flip flops and just a regular shirt and I had
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: no makeup on.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, maybe I shouldn't ask any more questions.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely how their first instincts. No comment, Like, that's not
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: mine at all, But that's a California thing, maybe right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I did ask the guy at Del Taco. I had
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Del Taco for the first time. These are French fries
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: with tacos?
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay?
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Has any I mean? Is that just a California thing?
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: No, I get French fries with my Euros, which are
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: like Greek tacos.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: But they gave me charlet French with my Del Taco.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: But I asked the attendant, the worker at Del Taco.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I was just down the street
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and I was asking questions. He goes, we do not
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: talk to people in the media.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I was okay, okay.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I said, well, I'm from Texas. And I love California
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: and I wished I lived here. Trying to just be nice,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: but yeah, so that used to be the Allie's Home store.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I will say I was sad that they did.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Not have a memorial outfront. I mean a lot of
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: people aren't going to want to be associated with things
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: like that, you know. So I'm not familiar with that, Michael.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I have to look into that though. Thank you.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: The upstairs lounge fire, I'm not familiar with that.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I am not familiar with that, but.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I my orders, right. But anyway, I did not know
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: you got fringe fries with tacos. Okay, I'm going to
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: just say I did not know that, so it was
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: an experience for me.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: But I did do a little video of the College
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Hills area just to show you all some of the houses.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: The thing that I found interesting.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: You could tell which houses had been rebuilt because down
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: the road just a little bit they were much older homes, oh,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: built like in the fifties or sixties. And then you
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: could tell these were all brand new. And the other
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: thing I found interesting there was a fire hydrant on
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: every corner. Oh and apparently I did some research. Those
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: were added after the fire, okay, so they tapped into them,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: so they had more because it's up a hill in
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: a canyon, and I guess they had problems with the
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: hoses bending and not getting full water force, so they
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: happed into them.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: So I learned with so many fires that happened in California,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: they definitely probably have that stuff just everywhere they can,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: because they do.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: They even have a museum of California Fires.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting. I love museums, Sammy.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I will tell y'all, the weather was absolutely amazing in California,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: and it reminded me of why I loved living there.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: M There was no humidity, it was eighty degrees, oh wow,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and it was heavenly.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: So do you want to share the video? Yes? I
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: don't know how.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I thought instead of just pictures, I would do a
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: little bit of a video. So behind me you can
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: see here that is College Hill. The college is right
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: on the other side. I am in the neighborhood where
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the College Hills fire burned back in nineteen ninety when
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: John Orr set fires. So these homes have been rebuilt.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I mean it's been twenty five years. Waitin any yeah,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: something like that, you know. I don't do that, but
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I'm parkedkay parking Stone. But I wanted to just go
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: ahead and show you guys, this is what it looks
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: like now. Sixty six homes burned, okay, sixty six, but
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: no lives were destroyed, and I aren't no deaths. I
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: should say sixty six homes were destroyed. There was forty
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: million dollars worth of damage. That was back in nineteen ninety.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: It would be a lot more today. So I thought
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I would do that quick little video for you guys,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: and now off to go visit some more places by guys.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I love that. Wow.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Note to Terry, put makeup on before you record a video,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: and do something with your hair. So I had a
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: ball cap on. I took the ball cap off. I
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: noticed that, thank you. I took the ball cap off
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: before I recorded, and looking at my hair right there,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I should have left it on. No way, No, I
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: will say it was kind of humbling to see that
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the homes had been rebuilt. And the other thing I
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: loved people were out in that neighborhood walking. I had
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: a couple of people walk by and say hello to me.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: I did not try to ask some questions because I'd
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: been to the hardware store. I didn't ask some questions,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: but all I keep thinking about what would that millions
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: of dollars be in today's time.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Mm, A lot, a whole lot. Oh sad.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: And guys, it's less than four miles from the fire station. Wow,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: So think about that he sets it that close to
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: his station.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: M hm. He's a real piece of work. And I
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: can't wait to get into more of John pillowpyro or.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: But before we do, why don't we talk about what
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: you're drinking tonight, Terry? Since what you wrote isn't true anymore.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wrote that I was drinking sparkling water
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: because I've got way too much to do before I
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: leave the country.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: But it's been stressful.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: I am going with good all standard, Saint Supri, Thanks Napery.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Y'all really need to sponsor me, okay, just you need
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: to sponsor the show and send us all wine. Okay,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: let's just be honest.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, please and thank you. I like getting please and
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: thank you. Oh boy, here we go again. Yes, amos
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: already on the puns for tonight. I love it. What
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: are you drinking tonight? Well, I am still sipping on
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: my astral tequila tropical margarita that I was drinking last week.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: But I promise, and some of you might be disappointed.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to drink as much as I did
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: last week because the hangover was very rough, very rough.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: It was one of those I didn't realize because I
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: kept the party going after our show by myself. Well,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: I was hanging out with my brother. I was by myself,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: but I was the only one drinking. And then the
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: next night for our TMI show, I went to pour
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: another drink and I was like, holy smokes, I drink
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: like half a bottle tequila on my my own and
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: that explained everything.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Honey, forty, For some reason, when you turn forty, that
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: alcohol just hits different and it's just feeling longer. And
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: then just let me warn you, when you hit fifty,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: it really hits different.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I'm only having this class tonight, friends, That's it. And
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: then I got a big styrofoam cup from Skyline Chili
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: of root beer, which I was telling Terry and Amy
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: before the show. And I know we're not supposed to
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: like syrophoam things. I know it's bad for the environment,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: but you guys, all right, soda found soda tastes so
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: much better out of syrofoam. It doesn't water down as much.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: You can get all the bubbles. It's my favorite thing ever.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: And I know it's bad. I know, but it is bad.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But there's things that are much worse.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Syrophone's pretty freaking bad. But that's what I'm drinking tonight,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: a root beer and a margarita.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Sammy says, your hair looks amazing, and I agree. It's
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: very shiny, really it is. I don't know if it's
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: a lighting, but it's very shiny.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, I did take a shower and I did
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: like blow dry and straight in my hair, so have you.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It's just said it's clean. I don't know, it's very shiny.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like, it looks very good.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: I'm just glad that you can't smell me because I cleaned
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: the goat cage.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: The original hangover ams. You're out of control, all right,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: you guys. Well with all of that, let's get into
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: the story of John Pillow Pyro or if you all
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: give me a second, because my Google just did that
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: fun thing where it's like, you know what we're gonna
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: do right now, We're gonna sign you out of all
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: of your stuff, and we're gonna need you to resigned
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: back in. Thanks Google.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Hey Lama get a new laptop and have to resign
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: into everything?
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: No, thank you? Yeah, I know, I'm currently signed in
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: as myself. Thank you Google. Oh my gosh, it is
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: just one of those days. Anyway. It's made of humans,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: what Sami?
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: That is a lie because I love glitter, and I'm
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: sorry it is not made of humans.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, lady and Gray, yes, I'm sorry. But the paper cup, oh,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: don't even get me started on soda out of paper cups?
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: What are we even doing? Okay? Oh hate it? Anyway,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: let's get onto the store, you guys. Now, as I
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: was gonna say, we left off last week with the
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Pillow Pyro task Force band name called because I freaking
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: love the name of that task force, and then being
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: worried that John Orr was onto the investigation after finding
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: the tracker on his car, and the task force frustrated
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: that John went home without setting any fires after the meeting,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: because remember this guy, every time there was a conference,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Oh well, look at all these fires that just so
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: happened to happen right there where the conference was. But
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: this time no, no fires. So the surveillance of Or continued,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: but his crazy driving made it almost impossible for the
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: task force team to follow him. Since the Pillow Pyro
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: task Force had been established, there hadn't been a single
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: arson attempt at any retail store within Los Angeles County. Hmm. Interesting.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Despite the task force growing determination, their suspect remained elusive.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Each day, investigators poured over the daily fire reports coming
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: through every blaze in hopes of finding a lead that
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: tied back to Or, but the reports brought nothing new,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: just silence. I was like, somebody has like insider knowledge.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I know, but I have a question. Do I should?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I know what this means? No, Terry, No, don't.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Solient green leftovers?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: What is salient? It's not No, it's not the time, Terry. Okay.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: So it's one of those things that I'm stupid about.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, you're you're blessed. Okay, I'm blessed. Okay, that's all
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: that world that you're in. Just live in that world
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: that you're in. Okay, then I'm going to just stay
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: here now. Okay.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Frustrations begin to mount, Well, little progress. The team debated
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: whether it was time to act. You know, should they
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: move forward with an arrest based on the very thin
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: evidence already collected. I mean they would be gambling that
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: it would be enough to secure charges for the nineteen
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: eighty seven retail fires in Fresno to layer in Bakersfield.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Or should they hold out waiting for John to strike again? Guys,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: that is a tough decision, you know, because you want
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: to stop him. But if you don't have enough evidence
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and he gets all free and then he knows every
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: A tough one.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Now, While those discussions weigh too heavily, the Task Force
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: sees a creative opportunity. The LA Fire Department, working with
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: the Task Force, issued a fabricated request for updated headshots
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: of members of the Fire Investigators Regional Strike Team, to
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: which John Or belonged. Now, oblivious to the ruse, Or
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: smiled for the camera, you know, providing investigators with a
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: fresh headshot.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I almost are my red and black flannel today,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: But then I was like, no, I'll wear that tomorrow
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: because I gotta do a bunch of stuff tomorrow. Here,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: John and I could have been somewhat matching.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: You could have, ye could I'm glad you didn't.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Now I'll be right.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Photo was quietly inserted into a lineup and shown to
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: witness witnesses from several of the retail arson scenes. Guys,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: the results were telling multiple witnesses singled out John or
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: identifying him as a customer they had seen inside the
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: stores or lingering near the locations shortly before the fire
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: is erupted. And guys, I have to tell you, that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: is sneaky as shit and I am here for it.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's some clever thinking right there. It really was,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: and spiral. I don't know, maybe I'll work that into
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: a story for Tmisermorrow or something.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: We'll see the fact that it's cool enough to wear
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: flannel where you are is just obnoxious. I got told
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: y'all before we started it was ninety five here today,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: I am in shorts.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I am wearing a knitted poncho right now. I go
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: with a cow neck and like everything I've like, I
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: wish I had that and a couple of months it
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: will be too cold to wear this. Crazy. This is
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: my fall sweaters. I have so many sweaters, y'all. I
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: wasn't really streaming much in the wintertime. Wait till you
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: see how many sweaters and cardigans I have in black.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: It's unnecessary, all right. So following this, the Pillow Pyro
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: task Force was given permission to install a tracking device
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: inside of Or's car. Which is a big deal to
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: get a warrant like that, Okay, not just super easy
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: to do. It's as tough as like trying to tap
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: a phone. You need good, good evidence for a judge
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to write this warrant, for sure, and it would be
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: one that he could not accidentally find like the last
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: one they tried. So they waited until his car went
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: in for its regular service and the device was installed
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: under the dashboard. Now, this device would allow the task
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: force to have real time tracking of oars movements while
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: in the vehicle. You guys, this is nineteen ninety Okay,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: remember that there is.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: No no phones, no GPS, none of that, all right,
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: so this is breaking technology here.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, we will still be in shorts, yes, m I'll
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: be wearing mittens and beanies. I might wear some gloves
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: someday it gets too cold, because sometimes it's just gets
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: really coold. Oh, I need to pack my gloves. There
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: you go that last. Sorry. Now, the technology was cutting
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: edge for its time, virtually unknown within most law enforcement circles,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: that's right, And it was sophisticated enough that John would
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: have had no reason to be suspicious. I kind of
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: want to see this thing, but okay, the installation was
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: carefully executed and discreetly fitted under oors dashboard during a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: routine vehicle service where it was nearly impossible to detect. Now,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: as we said, the device provided investigators with real time
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: movement logs in fifteen minute intervals, given them the most
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: powerful tool yet in tracing Or's potential connection to suspicious blazes.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And this is exactly really what I think they would
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: need in order to take him to trial, Like they
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: needed this sort of of evidence for sure. So you know,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: this allowed the investigators to compare his travel patterns with
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: suspicious fire outbreaks, you know, looking for any consistencies that
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: might finally tie him to a broader pattern of ARS inactivity. Now,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: what once seemed like a puzzle filled with guesswork was
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: now backed by hard data that could either implicate him
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: or clear him. I think we know which way this
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: is going to go, though, I know.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: But I do respect the fact that they were really
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: hoping it would clear him.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would think so too right, you really
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: don't want to. I think it's him, but.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, but Sammy, you're right. Bama's not a
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: weather predicted state. Winter jackets in the am and shorts
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: and sandals ba afternoon once fall truly starts.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yep, welcome to the South.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Now, while surveillance was under way, a year's worth of
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Glendale Fire Department call out sheets were examined. Now, these
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: records painted a troubling picture. Okay, every suspected pillow pyro
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: fire had coincided with periods where John was either unaccounted
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: for or working alone. Not crazy great, these findings started
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: tightening the net around him. Now, guys, buckle up because
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I better just say buckle up because as the task
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: force dug deeper, guess what guys they discovered or had
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: been working on?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: A novel?
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: This is something, yeah, one that rattled investigators and terry
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to the core.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: The title is Points of Origin. The manuscript centered on
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Aaron Styles, a firefighter who doubled as a serial arsonist
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: in La.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Points of Origin, Yes, love it, I mean write what
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: you know right.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Styles derived sexual gratification from setting fires, while his colleague
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Arson investigator Phil Langtree grew increasingly desperate to unmask the
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: culprit wrecking havoc across the city.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to find this whole thing. And you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I love reading shit, and I think that's my call
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: for a table read. If somebody has it, send it
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to me. So the parallels between fiction and reality were striking.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Okay Styles was a non smoker like or and he
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: used the delay and ciderary device that gave him ten
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: to fifteen minutes to escape, just like those recovered from
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the real pillow pyro fires. Oh my gosh. What now?
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Both men favored retail targets, hardware stores, fabric shops, and
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: businesses stocked with styrofoam and highly combustible goods. This is
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: probably why we don't have styropham cups anymore. It's really
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: disguy's fault. It's we don't have delicious soda. I'm blaming him.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Why now? Now, even the timeline was chillingly accurate. Okay,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Styles would set fires while traveling too and from an
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Arson conference in Fresno, mirroring ores suspected activities. What's right?
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: What you know, buddy? Write what you know?
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Right? He didn't have a creative thought.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: No, not at all, you know, and that let mes
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: you wonder about the sexual gratification part. I'm not saying
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: he has it, but like, oh, we're going to get
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: to that, okay, okay, and we will give a warning
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: before we do. Now. In one passage or described styles,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: he said quote he was a loner and insecure. His
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: fires gave him the much needed attention that he craved.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: He was, after all, the only one who knew how
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the fire started to Aaron. The smoke was beautiful, causing
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: his heart rate to quicken and his breathing to come
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: in shallow gasp. He was trying to control his outward
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: appearances and look normal to anyone around him. Okay, now
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: look up the fire flickering, the flames in the back
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: of that. Yes, she did a great job with that.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: How shiny are his shoes? Now? For investigators, Points of
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Origin read like a veiled confession. While it's explicit sexual
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: content and violent imagery shock them, it was the fire
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: scenes that hit hardest. Fiction that was nearly indistinguishable from
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the real life crimes or was suspected of committing. Though
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: the manuscript could not serve as direct evidence, it was
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: dissected for motive psychology and any hidden clues about oors behavior.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I will say I normally get annoyed about stuff
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: that they'll be like, we will read people's writing and
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, this means that, oh you watched violent movie,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: you know, dumb shit like that. All right, but this
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: this one sounds like okay, sir, yeah, okay.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I mean I love if you look at this thing here,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: this novel is approximately one hundred and four thousand words long.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm like.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Did you count for words?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I would appreciate your viewing the enclosed synopsis and call
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: me if you feel like my novel has merit, or
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: mail me your manuscript. I'll let you know, buddy, I'll
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: let you know. It to us.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: All So, in June of nineteen ninety, it was time
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: again for another fire conference, but guys, this time, to
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the surprise of many, including me, John Orr did not attend,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: and instead he sent his partner Don Yeager to attend
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: while he stayed back and worked. I can't oh, we
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: lost Alma. I can't help but think he was getting
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the funny feeling that they were maybe onto him after
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the last conference, but by late November nineteen ninety one.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: John Orr had been under surveillance for seven months when
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: flames erupted on the set of a television show at
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Warner brother Studio in Burbank, California, where I just visited.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Now Arson investigator Captain Steve Patterson called on Or for help.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Still seeing him as a mentor and a season expert,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Or quickly agreed, saying, oh, I just happened to be nearby,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and arranged to meet Patterson outside the studio gates. But
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: when Patterson got there, Or never appeared instead, Patterson was
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: donned to find John Orr already deep inside the sprawling lot,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: inspecting the burn set as though he had materialized from nowhere.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, if that isn't some red flags.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: John boy okay? Is John Boy okay? Now?
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: The task force immediately flagged the inn incidents Ors teletract
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: device showed his vehicle in the area at the time
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: of the fire. However, it placed him closer than coincidence
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: could reasonably explain. However, the fifteen minute interval tracking couldn't
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: prove he lit the blaze, but this was the first
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: time technology could confirm his proximity to a deliberately set fire,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: so to the tag course, it was a breakthrough moment,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: so clear evidence that Or was circling the very scenes
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: they suspected him of creating. I mean, in today's time,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I saw the think of like, my god, you can
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: only do it in fifteen minute intervals. What's wrong with you?
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Why I can log in and see where my suitcase
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: is of my air tag and I'm like.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Terry, that was in the nineties. It does yeah,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: like the earliest nineties, early nineties. Now the very next day,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: or suspicious behavior intensified. Former LAFD Captain Gary Seidel, one
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: of the few who knew Or was under investigation, spotted
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: him driving along the Foothill Freeway in Glendale. Now Minutes later,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: smoke began rising into the sky. A bush fire had
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: broken out nearby, spreading rapidly through dry brush. Or announced
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: over the dispatch radio that he was on his way
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: to the scene. Nothing about that in itself seemed unusual
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: until investigators realized how fast he had arrived there, because
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: you were just in la and this was the early nineties,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: but like you ain't got nowhere, you know, it took b.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, it was at forty something minutes to go six
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: point nine miles cross. I was so stress from traffic.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Oh on the top things for the sticker. But yeah,
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: that's suspicious, mm hmm. Right, So fire crews were stunned
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: to find Or on site almost before they could mobilize,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: moving through the burn the burned terrain with the same
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: investigative zeal he had always been known for. To the
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: casual observer, he was simply doing his job, but for
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: the Pillow Pirate task Force, the speed of his arrival
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: suggested far more sinister. And that was that Ore had
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: already been there when the fire began. Hmm hmm. Interesting.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, but I love that picture of him.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Just I don't know.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Why now if suspicions weren't already strong enough. Guys, another
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: fire broke out this same afternoon, just nine minutes away,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: and a lot of Canada flint ridge. Now. The near
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: simultaneous time, simultaneous timing raised red flags, with investigators speculating
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: that one blaze might have been set as a diversion
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: to allow the other to burn longer before firefighters could respond.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And that's what I was thinking.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, let's just be honest. He thought he was
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: being sneaky okay. Now once again, or appeared on scene
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: with uncanny speed. I mean he was like Johnny on
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the spot, is I guess the best way to say that,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: arriving even after he had announced over the radio that
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: he was aheaded to the Glendell file, so for those
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: paying attention, it seemed almost impossible.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Or was in two places.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: At once, one step of step ahead of every crew
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: every time.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, Cavin, Yes he is acting like an addict.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: And when we get to the psychology, we're gonna learn
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: a little bit about that.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you Lady and Gray for gifting five memberships.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you, congrats to all of our new members were
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: joining the fam.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I think over on my other monitor, I
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: can see who they are, but that would require me
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: to multitask, and we know I'm not great at that.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: So Michael, he's super.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Or here we go again. Here we go again with
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: the Oars. I love it now.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Later analysis confirmed both fires were deliveries deliberately set dull Now.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: While Oar's role as an arson investigator explained his presence,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: the pattern was undeniable. The man under suspicion for years
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: was now being tracked or witnessed in proximity to fires
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: that bore the same hallmarks of the Pillow Pyro. Two investigators,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the Warner Brothers, the Glendale and the La Canada, Canada
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: flint Ridge blazes, Or marked a chilling turning point. They
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: were no longer just looking at John Orr's pass. They
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: were watching him ignite his present and guys, to me,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: this is he was able to set the fire and
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: leave all within less than fifteen minutes. How many fires
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: had he set and practiced to be able to do this?
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: No, the animex, I'm sure we're safe and sound. The animaniacs.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, my kids grew up calling them baby rats, baby rats.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: But do I mean, just think about it. The tracker
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: could only catch him in fifteen minute intervals. That means
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: he was in and out yeah before. I mean that
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: scares me.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a quick one here. Now. In late November
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, the Pillow Pyro Task Force and the
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: US Attorney's Office were running out of patients, as I
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: imagine they probably should be. They've been doing this for
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: how many years now? Now Or's presence at suspicious fires,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: his novels, disturbing parallels, and the mounting circumstantial evidence all
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: pointed in one direction. Federal agents worried that he had
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: escalated from retail targets too large outdoor fires, incidents capable
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: of catastrophic destruction and mass casualties, and they simply could
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: not risk waiting any longer. And I agree, I don't.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think they could wait any longer to do this.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I don't think they could either.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: But we're going to get into a lighthearted comment that
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: was made so sounds like somebody sucks life in and
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: out in fifteen minutes. And I'm going to just tell you,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: if you ever hear this, we got your back now,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: if this time at this just kidding fire burning that
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: is in the College Hills where I was. I don't
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: know what section because so many houses were burned, but
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: this is a picture from that fire. Look, those flames
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: are high.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Oh there she is there. He froze for a second.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: We were a good now. Oh I froze. Those flaims
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: are high. Oh. I thought something was calling on my arm.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: But it was just like the little dangles from my
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: pawn show. It scares me. I was like, oh no,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: it's just my shirt. I'm fine. I'm fine.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: That reminds me of a funny story. To remind me
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: to tell you later. Now, on the morning of December fourth,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, John Or walked across his Eagle Rock
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: property towards his car, but before he could open the door,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: a wall of voices cut through the dawn, shouting for
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: him to put his hands in the air.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yep so agents from.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, officers from the
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: la PD, and members of the lafd's Arson unit encircled him.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: The firefighter, who had once lectured others about arson, was
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: now under arrest for being the very firebug he claimed
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: to hunt. Guys, there's a lot of people I don't like,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: and I try to give them grace. It is so
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: hard to give this man grace.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Do we have to? I'm not. I try to give
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: grace because of whatever.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Happened to him that made him into a firebug. But
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: on the other hand, I'm like, yeah, no, you don't
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: deserve my grace. Now at the station, Or denied all
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: in voume all involvement anyone surprised none, But in a
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: telling moment, he asked investigators how many fingerprints they had
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: found okay, asked that if you're innocent, be honest, asked
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: that question, that's a weird question. Search warms were executed
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: on his home, car and office. Among the item ce's cigarettes, matches,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: rubber bands, yellow notepads, photographs, videos, and even a copy
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: of the Pillow Pyro Task Force flyer.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I did think he was sling clever. Yeah.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Now, John Orr dismissed these as training tools.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Props he used to teach.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Students how easily incendiary devices could be assembled from everyday objects.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Which I mean, yeah, that's part of his job. It
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: is part of his job and not great.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, red flags. Now, investigators were unconvinced, especially when footage
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: surf fish showing properties or filmed before they were later
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: set a blaze.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: That's not gonna be good for you, John.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you do not go and take video footage
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: in pictures and then set it on fire.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's not That's not great for him. I
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: mean that is pure evil to me. That's it's weird.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: It's so weird. He's so weird. Now. Among the most
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: unsettling discoveries in the Pillow pirate case, where the letters
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: John or himself had written to his own insurance agent.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know why he wrote these. I still don't understand.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: But apparently I don't know. He just wanted somebody to
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: talk to. I guess I'll guess what.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I like that wrong, it's not his insurance agent.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: It's his literary agent. Oh, okay, that makes a lot
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: more sense than his ins I was like, okay, maybe
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: that's the only person.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I misuspelled it wrong and auto corrected. But yeah, his
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: literary agent.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, this makes a lot more sense. I'm going to
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: just in guys.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: There was no alcohol or anything involved in the research
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: and writing of this.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: All right, So John Orr writes letters to his literary agent.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Okay about all this now. On the surface, the correspondents
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: appeared routine, but investigators soon realized the letters revealed far
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: more about or state of mind in his obsession with fire.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Oh I want to read these so bad. In them,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: he described the destructive beauty of flames with a disturbing admiration,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: referring to fire as if it were a living, breathing force,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: which it is to me. I don't think it's that weird,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: but yes, but also talking about it too much weird? Okay,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: But I get mesmerized by flames, like when you're at
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: like a bonfire.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: You know we all carry in Ohio, Geez tried to.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I find flames, they're mesmerizing. They can calm the soul.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, just like sitting there looking at them, you
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: forget everything else if they're contained and they're not causing damage.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm gonna have a lot of respect for fire.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: It's because of fire that we are really even here today. Okay,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: so I get I get saying that. But oh hey, Sabag,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: you cave to talk, shouldn't you. Gum ain't got no gum. Okay, Well,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: well you've come to the right place now. His words
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: carried a fascination that went beyond professional expertise, exposing a
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: personal attachment that raised alarm bells for the task for
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: and one letter stood out in particular, where Or warned
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: of an arsonist plague sweeping through California, almost as though
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: he were he was taunting investigators who struggled to stop
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: the outbreaks. He wrote about how easily fires could be
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: set and how difficult they were to solve, lacing the
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: commentary with a confidence that bordered on arrogance. The phrasing
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: suggested an inside knowledge of the crimes. Written less like
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: a concerned firefighter and more like the perpetrator himself, leaving
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: a breadcombe trail to the task force, it read like
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: a confession in disguise, one that not only pointed to
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Ar's involvement but also revealed his need for recognition. I mean,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: in writing this here, literary agent, I'm thinking the reason
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: that happened is because they had questions, right, how probable
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: is this? And he just was like, let me tell me.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: He was full of organs. Yes, yeah, Now the letters
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: became a.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Psychological window into Orals orals Or's dual identity, the trusted
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: fire captain and the suspected pillow pyro. While no single
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: piece of correspondence directly admitted guilt guys, the tone, detail
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: and peculiar phrasing offered prosecutors additional evidence of his obsession.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: The agent, unsettled by the content, handled them over to
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: authorities who treated this writing as more than idle musings.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you agent for doing that. They were viewed as
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: the words of a man who wanted to be admired
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: for his expertise yeah, but could not resist hinting at
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: the secret life he was leading. Yeah, guys, he wanted
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: recognition now. In the end, the letters added a chilling
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: layer to the growing case against John Orr, proof not
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: only of his actions, but of the twisted pride he
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: took in them. Now, John Orr ended one letter to
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: a literary prospect with a chilling remark, By the way,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not the arsonist.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, that's what they all say. Okay. Now.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: After his arrest, when the task Force informed or as colleagues,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: one of his friends, a fellow arson investigator, immediately urged
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: them to revisit the deadly nineteen eighty four fire at
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Ali's home center in South Pasadena. Remember it was ruled
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: in a accident. He explained that John had been fixated
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: on the case for years and often insisted the blaze
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: was deliberately set. Now, the fact that the investigators had
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: officially ruled it an accident remained a constant source of
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: fresh frustration for John Orr.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Which is so interesting. Later, m hm, sorry, guys.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: This tip triggered a memory for Special Agent Michael Matassa,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: who had been instrumental in the Pillo Pyro investigation. He
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: recalled a passage from Orr's manuscript Points of Origin, where
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: a fictional fire consumed Cal's hardware store, and that story
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: five people perished in the flames, including a young boy
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: named Matthew, a detail that now skept pulling parallels to
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: the real life always tragedy.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: He's as big of a shit writer as Chad Dabell
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: is chis please, Oh my god.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: He he needed that, recognize, he needed that fire to
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: be found out.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he wanted that very badly. Now. In Orr's novel,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: the arson investigators are portrayed as too incompetent to recognize
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: that the fire was intentionally set. Hmmm, okay. In reality,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: the Olds Home Center blaze claimed four lives, including the
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: two year old boy named Matthew, and was officially ruled
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: an accident. Assistant US attorneys Walter Brown and Stephan Stein
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: later remarked that the fictional cow's fire described in Orange
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: Manuscript heard the OL's tragedy to the point of being macabre.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Investigators poured over the points of origin draft line by line,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: uncovering unsettling pair and parallels between ors fiction and real
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: world arsans. Now, many of the blazes he described in
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: the book bore striking similarities to actual incidents at the
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: time had some that hadn't even been tied to the pillowpyro.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, HM, Now remember last week when we said
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: that John Orr was upset that the ols fire killed
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: four people and that it was ruled in accidents. Oh hmmm,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: interesting put an attack in that.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: So John Orr's first major trial took place in Fresno, California,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: and it quickly became one of the most high profile
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: arson cases in the state history. I wish it would
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: have been live streamed, Lama, we would have been all
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: up in that right now. Prosecutors laid out a meticulous case,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: beginning with the fingerprint found on the incendiary device recovered
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighty seven fire in Bakersville. They walked
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: the jury through the technical details of how the incendiary
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: devices were built, how they matched or signature method, and
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: how his presence had been placed near multiple fire scenes.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Now the Fresno courtroom became the stage where investigators finally
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: presented years of painstaking work stitching together evidence that portrayed
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: John Orr not as a decorated fire investigator, but as
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the very arsonist he claimed to be hunting.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, you brisk, go on and get you gone.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Get you yes, mm hmm, yep, just like it's yeah,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Throughout the proceedings, prosecutors emphasized the devastating impact of ors crimes.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Witnesses testified to the destruction caused by the retail fires,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: businesses gutted, families put at risk, and firefighters force into
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: life threatening situations. The jury was reminded that these blazes
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: were not accidents. They were deliberate acts carried out by
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: someone with an intimate knowledge of how fire spread. The
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: letters Or had written, the surveillance data from the tracker,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: and the testimony from fire investigators all worked together to
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: paint a damning picture of the man leading a double life.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: All I could think about the double life, just be
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: like most firefighters and cops. Just cheat, don't set fires.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And kill people.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: I would rather you cheat than kill people.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, none of it's okay, none of it's great.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: None of those is great. Kill. Don't be a douche,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: don't don't be that way. It's fine now. Or, for
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: his part, maintained his innocence, because, of course he did.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: He sat calmly through much of the testimony, often appearing
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: as though he was still the confident Arson investigator rather
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: than the accused, but the evidence presented in Fresno left
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: little room for doubt. In the end, the jury convicted
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: him of multiple counts of arson, marking the beginning of
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: a series of trials that would ultimately expose the full
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: scope of his fire setting career. Now, the Fresno verdict
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: not only secured Or's downfall, but also confirmed the suspicions
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: investigators had Harvard for years that the state's most trusted
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: fire investigator was in fact California's most prolific arsonist, Which
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: is just so shocking.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: I know, it's just like I can't wrap my head
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: around it.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: How m hm. Now, the Fresno trial concluded with a
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: decisive verdict. All right, John Orr was found guilty of
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: three counts of arson and was acquitted for the other
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: two due to lack of evidence. So that's, you know,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: good that they don't have the evidence. I know, we
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: all know he did it, right, but.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: They didn't find devices a no.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Which does mean that what they had to do beforehand,
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: tracking him for certain like that was really important to
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: the jury. But you know, you can't go back in
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: time and tracked him elsewhere. You know. I'm pretty sure,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: they were all like, yeah, probably was that guy. But
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: beyond the real doubt and all, you know, we need proof,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: right right, So the conviction wasn't just a personal ruin
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: for Or. It was a devastating blow to the firefighting
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: profession because I mean he was the face of it.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: He's the face of it. You know, he trained other investigators. Yeah,
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: a man once held up as an expert in catching
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: arsonist was now unmasked as the very type of criminal
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: he had built his career pursuing poetic justice. Yeah.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: Now, at sentencing, the courtroom was filled with victims, firefighters,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: and of course curious onlookers who wanted to see justice delivered.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors argue that Orr's crimes demonstrated a shocking disregard for
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: human life, pointing that he had set fires in busy
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: retail areas fully of ware of the risk to civilians
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: and first responders, which, let me remind you he is
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: a first responder. Now, they pressed for the maximum punishment,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: portraying him as a manipulative predator who used his badge
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: as a shield. The defense tried to push back, insisting
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: the fingerprint was the only concrete evidence tying Oor to
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: a device, But guys, their arguments carried little weight against
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: the mountain of circumstantial proof.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Now we know he was convicted.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: But when Judge Donald R. Fransen addressed Or directly, his
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: words were unsparing. He told John Orr that his actions
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: had been a betrayal not only of the public's trust,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: but of the firefighting brotherhood he claimed to serve. He
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: emphasized that Or's knowledge of fire made his crimes especially cruel,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: since he understood better than anyone how much destruction and
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: fear each blaze.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Could and would cause.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: I mean you to me, there should be a premeditated fire,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: like premeditated in things.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: There should I mean that might have been an aggravating factor.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: I don't really know how that. I don't really know
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: urs in charges all that well, but I feel like
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: there's probably something.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the judge sentence John Ord to thirty years
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: in prison for the Fresno arsons, ensuring he would most
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: likely spend the prime of his life behind bars. This
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: outcome mark only the beginning of his legal reckoning. But guys,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: it was the first decisive step in holding California's most
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: prolific arsonist accountable for his reign of fire.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: Yes. Even as Or settled into prison, new cases loomed.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: He was charged with additional fires, including three in adis
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Cadero during a nineteen eighty nine arson conference, and five
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: more in Los Angeles between nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: His defense attorney urged him to take a plea bargain boy,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: and to just have him admit to the three Adiscardo fires,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: which had caused minimal damage, in exchange for dismissing the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Los Angeles charges, and believe it or not, Or agreed.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: That was very surprising to me. He seemed like too
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: much of a subberman to ever take claim for any
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: of this, even though he wanted the attention. It very
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: much surprised me to learn that now. On May twelfth,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, he played guilty, earning an additional ninety
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: six months to be served concurrently with his existing sentence
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: in order to pay a fine of two hundred and
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: twenty five thousand dollars to the victims of the three fires. So,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: I guess that's something. It is Area's hands, are is
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I him? Yeah? His hands? Oh my goodness, sir, Sorry
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: got carried away. I don't know.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Now it has been reported that John Orr took this
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: deal in hopes of sparing his wife the possibility of
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: started losing everything they owned, and that's the reason he
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: did it, now, I will tell you, and I didn't
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: add it in here. His attorney also told him, if
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: you set any other fires, they are going to come
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: for you. So you need to own up to shit now.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Because his attorney informed him that he was also being
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: investigated for the Allies fire, which killed four people, John
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Or adamantly told his attorney he was one hundred percent,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: absolutely innocent, it did not start the fire, and that
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: there was no evidence that he did.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: M M no. I mean, on one hand, I'm like, well.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you trying to save your wife from losing everything,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: But on the other hand, could you have thought of
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: that first?
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: I remember he was hell bent on this wasn't this
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: wasn't an accident, blah yep. And now he's like, well,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with that.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with me. I don't know
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: Sorry. I don't think he ever wanted to actually hurt people.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: And what did you expect to happen? You literally played
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: with fire, like with you and all people.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think he set out to be a killer,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: but he as a fire investigator. Even me, I'm not
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: a fire investigator. I know fires can get out of hand,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: houses burned down.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: People die. Even if people.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Didn't die, you ruin their life because guess what, even
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: if you have insurance, you're never fully whole again. Your
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: baby pictures are gone, your wedding photos. I mean, dude,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: you knew better, okay.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, John Orr faced his most serious
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: trial yet in connection with the Ali's Home Center fire
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: in South Pasadena.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: The blaze, which broke out on October tenth, nineteen eighty four,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: killed four people, a grandmother, a two year old grandson,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: and two store employees. Now, after years of investigation and
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: mounting suspicion, prosecutors had charged Or with four counts of
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: first degree murder, arguing that the Ali's fire bore the
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: same hallmarks or what we call mo as the blazes
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: tied to the Pillow pyro.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: I honestly, I don't see how they could have taken
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: that to court, to be quite honest, I mean, do
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: we think that he probably didn't? Yes, But they even
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: have even less evidence for that one pretty much.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now I agree. But prosecution went to John war
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: with a plea deal that would take the death penalty
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: off the table. But guess what, mister evil I mean.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, John Orr. He turned down the plea deal.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: Mind you, he's already in prison.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Right, But first, the gree murder. You're going into a
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: whole different part of the prison. If you get that,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: you know, realize about to be a whole lot different
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: in prison with those first degree murder shots and charges
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: and death penalty is risky, risky, risky risky, right, that's true, Kappin.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: He did have the opportunity to destroy the evidence from
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: many of his fires, Yes he did. Now, so the
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: prosecution built its case around or signature methods of arson.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: They emphasized that he had shown up quickly at the scene,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: just as he had numerous other suspicious fires, and pointed
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: to the patterns that linked almost to other incidences under investigation.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: To the jury, they argued that this was not a
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: tragic accident, but a deliberate act of fire setting carried
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: out by a man who was supposed to protect the
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: public from such crimes. Now, the defense countered by insisting
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: there was no direct physical evidence tying Or to the
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: ignition point at Ali's. They stress that there were no eyewitnesses,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: no fingerprints, and no single piece of proof beyond a
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. They maintained that Or was being targeted based
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: on suspicion, reputation, and circumstantial connections rather than hard evidence,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: to which I say, it's actually pretty valid talent defense argument.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: I do agree.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: But the fact that he showed up so quick, he
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: went through it for what six to seven hours, I
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: don't know. There's a lot of circumstantial stuff.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors called witnesses to remind the jury of the terrible
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: human toll of the Alispire. Testimony described the rapid spread
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: of the plays, the conditions that trapped victims inside, and
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: the tragic losses suffered by families and the community. They
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: underscored that John Orr, with his professional training, knew exactly
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: how devastating such a fire would be when set inside
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: a large retail store.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: Full of people. Guys.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Let's also not forget what he wrote in his novel
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: Point of Origin that was almost detail to detail. Agreed,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: after weeks of testimony and deliberations, the jury sided with
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: the prosecution. They convicted John Orr on four counts a
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: first degree murder for the deaths caused by the Ali's
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Home Center fire. Now, this verdict was another devastating confirmation
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: of the suspicions investigators had pursued for years that he
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: decorated fire captain and respected our an investigator, was in
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: fact a serial arsonist and a murderer. I mean, if
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: I was on that jury, his point of origins book
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: and he said that a young boy died named that,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, there was too many things I would have.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: But also a lot of that was information that him
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: and other people knew as well. It wasn't like super
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: secret information. Yeah, I mean, yes, the novel was weird
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: and what not. I don't even if they would have
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: let it into court, to be quite honest with you,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: California did did they? Wow? Okay, okay, does that mean
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: we can foya at the manuscript? And Amy, could you
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: do a foy on that? Or right? We'll find it. Yeah,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: we'll find it because I want to read it. Now.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: When pleasing for John Orr's life, his attorneys presented UCLA
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: forensic psychiatrist doctor Ronald Markman, who testified that Orr's compulsion
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: to ignite fires was rooted an obsessive, compulsive disorder and
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: a form of pyromania. According to markham Orr's fire setting
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: was not a matter of consciousness choice, but a way
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: of alleviating intolerable anxiety, describing it as an unresolved medical conflict.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: I respectfully disagree her. Okay, I'm not a doctor, but
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: I respectfully disagree. The book was released. Oh was it?
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't think it was released.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: I know there's been several books written, but Points of
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Origin was released. Okay, I am going to go look
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: that up over here on the Amazon bookstore.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: In order it goodness. He noted that the veteran investigator,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: once regarded as a model firefighter and father of two,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: had a long history of fascination with flames and match playing. Well, sir,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: you are a doctor. You should know that that's not
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: a good sign. Actually, so now doors released? Ooh nice,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: just ordered. It can only get in paperback. It's kind
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: of funny you think about it. To ours defence team,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: these factors painted the picture of a man consumed by
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: a disorder that left him powerless to resist the urge
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: to set fires. His family echoed this plea, recalling his
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: childhood discipline, his service in the Air Force, and its
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: constant reminders for them to keep fire extinguishers and escape
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: routes at the ready. Prosecutors, however, pressed a harsh review,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: arguing that Or was not a man over by illness,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: but a calculating arsenist who betrayed the public's trust. And
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: I do agree with that. Is there something fundamentally wrong
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: with him? Yes, absolutely, not an excuse though, not an
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: excuse at all. But I think you know there's a
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: spectrum with arsenists, you know, and we'll get into that more.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: But sorry, doctor Ronald market Martin, I'm what you're saying here,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: I don't think applies to this man and a doctor.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: My opinions are on qualified.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: But remember he wanted to be a cop and he
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: failed the entrance exam. What would he have done if
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: he would have been a police officer?
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: What would his crime have been? Lady and gray mind's
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: on its way too. It will not be here until
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: after I'm on my flight.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: But dang exactly. My OCD does not.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: Compel me to light fires either, unless it's in a fire.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I feel like there are there are some people
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: who have OCD and that is what happens. But his
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: we're too careful, right, because if you're at that point
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: and it's complete, like you're you're not as as careful
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: as he was about things agreed, you know, because you're
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: in all sorts of disarray and you know, disordered thinking.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: So okay, cappen, It's okay, she said, y'all reminded me,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: I forgot to put her out. Did she get from
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: the stuff? Well, considering you didn't get the script on time,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: it is not your fault the fact that we have
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: any slides. Everybody needs to stop right now and think happened.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: Because let's just say, Terry has a brand new spiffy
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: mac because I had to get.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: A what you don't need to know, Harry, I'm just kidding.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: How my back? Yeah, no, it's it's actually just in
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: stream yard. Oh so you found where they? Oh that's
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: that's Amos being like.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like, are you telling me to shush?
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go back on you a miss. Now.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: The outcome of the nineteen ninety four murder trial ensured
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: that Or would spend the rest of his life in prison.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: It kind of looks like a walrus in that picture. Gosh,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: we having all of his hair.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: He's in prison, he's stressed.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, I see a b in the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: background adult.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: So we can make fun of him because he's a pos. Now,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: for the families of the victims, that can victions brought
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: long away to justice, though guys, it can never undo
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: their loss of the loved ones. For prosecutors investigators, the
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: verdict closed the darkest chapter of the Pillow Pyro case,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: securing accountability for the most deadly fire war had ever set. Now,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: mister pos John Orr still maintains his innocence and says
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: his book was purely fiction and that he only took
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: that one plea deal to help his wife.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: Whatever, bro, I don't believe you. I don't believe shit
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: you said. Don't believe you. Now, there have been several
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: movies and books are written about this case, but one
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: article I found talks about his daughter, who was seventeen
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: when her dad John was arrested, and that she thought
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: he was totally innocent. Also, why wouldn't she she's seventeen
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: to her dad like fair, fair babes, I get it.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: She said that she and her sister saw their dad
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: as a hero, which goes to lend our theory that
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: that's what he wanted people to think of him. Now.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: She goes on to tell how her dad's arrest derailed
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: her life. She had recently graduated high school and was
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: unable to go to college since she could no longer
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: get financial aid and her mom couldn't help. She did
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: wind up going to community college, and she even testified
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: on behalf of her dad and said that he never
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: said anything to her after not thanking her or asking
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: her how she was. She started right. She started doubting him.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: When she read her dad's manuscript in a novel written
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: by Joseph Wamba, A bunch of light bulbs went off
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: and she realized that her dad was guilty. Oh my god,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: look at that cover for points of Origin.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: Oh Jesu, you're right, captain. He did tell her she
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: could only come to court on certain days because she
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: didn't he didn't want her to know all of the evidence.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Now, his daughter said it was horrific that he wrote
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: about the sexual aspect of being an arsonist, and to
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: think her dad had written his book about himself. I
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: feel bad. I get it. I've kind of been there before,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it's just horrible. You know, a lot of
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: people don't like to really think about perpetrators, you know, families,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: and they like, there is really not a whole lot
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: of support out there for people whose parents have been,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: you know, convicted of serious crimes. You know, I'm sure
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: that that family did not get a lot of support
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: from the community because it didn't, you know. And then
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: his daughters are paying for his sins by not being
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: able to go to college and all of that. And
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: I hope it was too beautiful daughters because they were
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: very beautiful in that photo. I hope they're having their
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: best lives.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I listened to a Dateline episode while
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: I was in California driving in god awful traffic about
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: a woman that John Josh Mikowitz was talking to. She
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: started a nonprofit. I don't remember the name of it,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: but it's about both families. So it's about getting resources
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: for both sides of the family because they are just
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: as innocent as the victim side. That they are victims too,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: and sadly, so many people see them as.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: His children. Yeah, they're living a good life.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: I hope that she went to college in is an
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: HR that call me if you ever want to talk HR.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Now, FBI profilers and Fire service research researchers fat deem
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: John Orr, one of the most prolific arsonists of the
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: twentieth century, with suspicions that he may have set more
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: than two thousand fires across three decades.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: Is this image from Forensic Files. I don't know if
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: it is or not, but it gives me like, I
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever watched it. Oh, that is the.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: Fire school atf Agent Matassa and the fire map.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I just wondered. It just has Forensic Files quality
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: too to it. I've watched all twenty two seasons of
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: Forensic Files. She says, Nova all the way, Nova, Okay,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: all right, all right, all right. It has that good
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: nineties It does true crime doc field that I love.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: I know now his crimes and his novel have since
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: become central case studies. An understanding firefighter arsenist, which is
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: a rare but disturbing phenomenon linked to motives such as
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: hero complexes, boredom, and even sexual gratification. Guys, I'm going
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: to just tell you firefighter arsonist is not any two
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: words I ever thought should be put together. Right, they
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: should not be together.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: While Hero's syndrome is one motive is rarely the only one.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, he saved a dog, Still don't like you.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: He probably set that fire now. Motives documented in firefighter
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: arsing cases often include thrill seeking, attention seeking, or sense
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: of control. Some may light minor nuisance fires like a
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: trash pile vegetation, and then gradually escalate to more serious
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: ones in some contexts. Contexts there is also a financial
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: or occupational incentives. More fires might lead to more over time,
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: increased departmental cause, or justification for additional hiring, or in
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: his case, promotion to fire chief.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Right, Oh, I didn't think of all the financial incidives now.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: Importantly, though, most firefighter arsonists do not meet clinical criteria
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: for pyromania.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: It's a diagnostic impulse control disorder. So pyromania involves a
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: compulsion to set fires purely to relieve internal tension or
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: gain pleasure from the act, without extrinsic motives like recognition
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: or gain. They set it just to enjoy it.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, Land Engrave brings up
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: a good point. You know, people with certain things will
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: tend to go towards where they can do certain things.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Like I said, what we have done if he became a.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: Cop, Well, there's cops that go on fucking power trips,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: I know, but I've written about quite a few.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: What he would have decided to do instead of fires.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: I think it probably was still been a fires to
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: a certain degree because he had a problem with fires long.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: He already had that. You know, this was not like
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: a new thing he was doing to get attention. Like
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: he had a history. From what I understand, he had
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: a history of fires since he was young, and.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: He probably thought fire investigators aren't as smart at cap
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, he that's why I wanted to be
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: the cop.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: But you know, it is kind of crazy how many
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: firefighter arsonists there are. It's a pretty high number, high
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: percentage of people that do that. But you know, it's
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: not just a problem in firefighters. You have people that
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: are nurses and doctors who literally go into that to
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: hurt people or to make them kind of like munch
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: Housen kind of things, Right, you make the patient sicker,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: so then near the star nurse. It happens in a
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: lot of different fields. I think the thing that is
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: interesting about firefighters though, is that a lot of firefighters
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: are just volunteer firefighters there are like they're not even
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: there is paid. Yeah, they don't have like big budgets
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: and things like that. And so that's just this is
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: why I think firefighter arsenists like just really surprise me.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: The other types of arsenists don't surprise me all of
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: that grunch really. I mean, they're interesting by all means,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: are they interesting? But this one in particular is just
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: one I can't really wrap my head around either way.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: Because fire is so risky. It doesn't matter how good
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: of a firefighter you are, it doesn't matter. Yeah, And so, like.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Savage, I agree with you all dentists, all of.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: Them, right, So I find it fascinating now speaking of
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: firefighter arsen is it my I think so?
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Firefighter arsen is frequently present with co morbid mental health
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: issues or personality traits that pre dispose them to risky behaviors.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: This is not surprising for me either. Now, a large
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: study of arsonists, not exclusively firefighters, right, but everybody that
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: fits into arseness right, showed that ninety percent had some
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: recorded psychiatric history, yet only a tiny fraction three out
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: of two hundred and eighty three were formally diagnosed with pyromania.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: Because remember we just learned what pyromanna like, what criteria
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: you need to meet? All right, three, I have two
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: underdnea three people if that get that definition right, which
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: means which means there are way more sinister things going
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: on here. Okay. Now. Among these comorbides was substance abuse,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: mood disorders, psychotic symptoms, and personality disorders, especially the clusterer
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: b traits which compulsivity grandiosity are commonly documented. Personally, the
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: personality thing is my That would make the most sense
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: that yeah, yeah, no, sure other things as well, but
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying just say it at all now. In
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: the general arson literature, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder also appear
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: more often than in the general population, and those with
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: severe mental illness may set fires during psychotic episodes. Okay,
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: But in firefighter arsen specifically, traits of poor self regulation,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: low impulse control, grandiosity, or egotism are frequently mentioned. Again,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: if if this is somebody with schizophrenic or bipolar disorder,
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: they're disorganized thinking, all right, there, they don't have this
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: whole preparation and planning and that's not how that works, right,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: you know, And do they do they do psychiatric tests
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: on firefighters?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: So back then they did not, only some states do currently. Interesting,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: So I did go down that rabbit hole, and I
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: was shocked to find out how much people are against
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: doing psychological testing for firefighters.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like, hello, yeah, yeah, it's a big problem. It's
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: a very big problem. And even people I think it's
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: more so like because they get training. Now I remember
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: reading that for specifically like firefighter arson, right, you're training
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: other potential firefighters who are also arsonists. I'm starting to
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: think that it's not the These people are not the problem.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: It's everyone else and their opinions of like no, like
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: it's an insult to firefighters, Like no, they're putting you
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: want somebody whose head is in the game when they're
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: responsible for the lives of civilians and the people working
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: with them. Yeah, I don't understand why we're arguing about this.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I am crazy enough, and people do not
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: come at me.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: Do not come at me.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: I think if there is a lot of fires happening
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: in an area, you should put a tracker on all
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: firefighters cars.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: Like you, guys, it's a really big deal. It's not
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: even a pyromaniacs one point. Trust me, that percentage way higher.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: It is Rando pyras.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, it is, It is way higher. Now many arsonists,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: including firefighter arsonists, report early fascination with fire or early
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: fire setting behavior and adolescence. Now, childhood's exposure to trauma, abuse, neglect,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: family dysfunction, orchadoch home environments is also common in forensic samples.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: The fire service environment may then act as an enabling context,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: so individuals destined to be fascinated by fire now have
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: both the training and the access and a socially acceptable cover.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, guys, I want you to stop and think about that.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that is why psychological testing is so important. Yes,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: firefight it's common now. Pure dynamics sometimes play a role.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: So some arsonist report that setting fires elevated their status
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: or created a sense of control over colleagues. Guys, they're
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: narcissist as well.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: Agreed. I agree.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: Exactually, lady and Gray, even if there are no human deaths,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: so one thing, and I'm not going to get into it.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: The College Hills fires, there were no human deaths. There
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: was a lot of fur baby deaths, and I'm not
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: going to go there but them out of damage I
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: said earlier baby picture, I mean things that can't be replaced.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: You're happy you have your life, the damn you wish
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: you had those things, Well fuck.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: You, John Moore even more for all dead pets.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of that, and I chose not
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: to go into it because I just can't.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: Hello, amiens, I just can't. Yeah, no now. Fire setting
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: behavior often escalates over time following a reinforcement cycle. Okay,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: the act provides immediate rewards, the thrill, attention, or internal
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: tension relief. If that's fire, Sorry you guys. If you
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: know Cappin does all of our slides and she makes
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: a little slight nose and I don't know what's coming, right,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: but I saw that it don't either me was me
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: you described which is a trash fire, a dumpster fire.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad you were laughing at it, because I was, like,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: is Captain saying she's.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: A trash can fire?
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: Cappin, you are not a trash can on fire because
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: we love you and we would not be half as
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: amazing without you. You're on fire, but not this kind
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: of fire.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: Right now, if that fire is then fought, especially by
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: the perpetrator or their units. The positive feedback confer or
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: entrench their behavior. Many firefighter arsonists begin with small, little
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: risk fires like in it trash or brush fires. And
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know how brush fire is low and here,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: especially in California, but okay, and then they would gradually
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: move to more dangerous ones as their internal threshold rises.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: Investigators call this a staircase effect, with each fire sets
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: the stage psychologically for the next, which is also why
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: I friendly believe John has been doing this for a
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: long time. It's what I said. The ones we know
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: about are just new ones. I think his first time
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: so many more. Yeah, that was in his first time
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: set in fire to a retail building. His method might
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: have been it's just like serial killers. It is right,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: his methods will improve over time. It's the same kind
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: of Now is it a compulsion? Sure? Sure? But anyway now, moreover,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: the reinforcement is not just internal, okay. External rewards like
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: receiving praise or recognition can further can reinforce further acts.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: If unchecked, the pattern may lead to more frequent, daring
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: or destructive fires. And I do think what was going there.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: If they didn't arrest him, could you imagine what he
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: could have done? I mean, he didn't care about the
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: old Ali's one one where people died. He kept going,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: He just kept but then he stopped for a while.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: He did, but I think that's because he was worried
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: that they were on him. If he found that tracker
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: under his car. He was like, I don't think I
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: had anything to do, or he was like rethinking, like, well,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing is bad. I'm a hoop people. No,
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think so at all.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I would and this is just me. If
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: a fire you set took human lives, that should have
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: made you stop. But he needed it, and I mean
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: he needed it now. So from a psychological and investigative standpoint,
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: certain red flags are often present in firefighter arson cases.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: Okay now.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: These may include being first to arrive or insisting on
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: responding to certain alarms or calls, apparent over eagerness or
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: excitement at fire scenes rather than concern of being oh
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: shit another I mean yeah, spending time near fire scenes
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: or equipment outside of duty, a pattern of suspicious fires
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: and the same geographic area, particularly starting with small nuisance
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: fires and escalating inconsistencies and statements or efforts to be
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: involved investigations of fires they themselves sick.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: Hm hm quite the checklist. It's weird how John fit
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: all of those six say? Check check check check, mister
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: Innison over here, okay, buddy. Now, In rare cases, arson
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: can be linked to sexual gratification, which we should probably
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: give the warning. I mean, I guess if you need
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: a warning at this point, I guess by the way,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about weird six stuff. Even though
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: we started our first two sentences of the show talking
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't think about But it's fine, it's fine, We'll
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: go out and do a little whe.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: I just saw Cappin's eyes and I thought, maybe since
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: she's the trash can fire she called it herself, maybe
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: you know it triggered her.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: Now. The DSM five includes pyromania under in Paul's control
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: disorders and notes that arousal to fire, fire starting, or
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: fire related paraphernalia can occur, though this is not typical
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: of most arsonists. The technical term described sometimes use is pyrophilia,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: which is describing individuals who derive sexual excitement from setting
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: fires or watching them burn. Now, some of us I'm
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: sure have been like, oh, that fire in that fireplace
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: is sexy with bearskin rug that I've never seen or had.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: But you know it can be, right, But this is
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: still different than that. It's a whole lot different than that.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: Just to clear it up different, I want to clear
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: it up with everybody, exactly.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: A vibe in the room is not the same thing.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: Not the same thing. This is. This is a little
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: bit more than that and is debilitating. It really is.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: There have been sexual uh arsenists who've talked about it
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: and like it's really embarrassing for them too, because there's
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: the obsessive, compulsive part, right, you know, so amos your notes,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: they're so funny now. Clinical and forensic studies suggest that
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: while sexual arousal is uncommon, okay, that is us making
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: our faces. I guess that while sexual arouser arousal is
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: uncommon in the general arsenist population, it has been documented.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: For example, psychiatric reviews of ars and cases have described
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: individuals who reported masturbation during or after fire setting, or
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: who became sexually excited when watching flames. In these cases,
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: the fire itself functions as a stimulus, akin to a
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: fetish object. Creating a reinforcement that is both psychological and sexual.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: Why oh, because this is the Thomas Sweat one, isn't
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: I say, that's the Tommy Sweat one. Yes, you guys.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: I was like, why are we showing our know for tonight?
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: But then I was like, wait a second, that's not
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: for tonight. That was an episode we did what in
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: May May June about Thomas Sweat in Washington, DC, And uh,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: he is exactly what we just I just told you about.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: There you go, there's there's one right there. We get
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: the slide title Lama, well you know it literally says
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: if this sounds interesting to you now.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 4: I was like, if you're interested now, but I didn't
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 4: know if that I being's with me, I might cappain.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: We didn't know if that was you interested us interested.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, come on now, that was a really good episode.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: That was fascinating. By the way, Thomas sweatwim good stuff now.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: For firefighter arsonists, the sexual component is far less typical
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: than motives like heroism or thrill seeking. However, experts caution
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: that some offenders may combine multiple forms of gratification, attention
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: from peers, emotional release, and private sexual arousal, making their
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: motives complex and layered. Guys, I have to just tell you,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: it creeps me out to think of a man self
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: pleasuring himself to fire.
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: He started.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but there's just something not right
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think at that moment he was
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: aroused by But man, I bet afterwards, he bet after this,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: let's go, he was but the back and around and
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: you know that. I mean, that's as bad as the
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: neckros for me. But I mean, to me, that is
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: the killer.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: It done killed everything I'm feeling down there.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: It does not chat which which one turns you off more?
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: All right? The sexual arsonists.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: The necro necro definitely worse, worse than the worst.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too, I think one. I'm like, yeah,
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: flames can be sexy, I.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: Guess, but my biggest fear is dying in a fire.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure, that's my biggest.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: So I see nothing sexual about that ever.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: Worst. Yeah, and necros are kind of weird. Sorry, I
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: got it. Yeah. So, because sexual.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: Motivate motives and arson are considered paraphilic, they are often
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: hidden and underreported. Offenders rarely admit to sexual arousal and
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: investigators may not think to ask because I mean, I'm
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: sure they weren't, like, so, John, did you light the
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: fire so that you.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: Could stroke it? I mean, I'm sure that's not what
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: they thought of your own hose. John.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: In psychological evaluations, this dimension can surface as part of
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: the broader pattern of compulsive fire setting. The reinforcement loop
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: in these cases is particularly strong. Both the fire and
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: the sexual release act as a reward makes relapse more
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: likely if treated.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you guys. That brings us to the end
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: of this. So John Or sits in prison for the
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: rest of his life. But we must remember he not
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: only murdered four people, he also cost hundreds of millions
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: of dollars in damage and cast his own family severe
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: trauma and damage that they still have to deal with today.
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: And that is our two part series on John Pillow
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: pyro Or What what a tragic Tale?
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say, has given interviews, and there's a
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: thing on A and E. You should definitely go here
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: from her point of view, what this has done to
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: her life.
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: I'm sure, I'm sure, And.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: How much as a society we need to do better
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: about punishing the person who did it and having grace
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: and compassion for the family. They are innocent victims as well.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: I agree Terry well with that. Let's see our closing thoughts.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: I don't really have that many. Surprisingly they don't Savage, No,
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: let don't work now. Listen. I think that John did
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: all of this for ego, prestige, attention. He wanted to
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: feel like the best guy at everything. Well, he kind
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: of become a cop because he couldn't have the exam
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: somehow in the seventies. But maybe there's a reason for them.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's good he didn't have a gun, but you know,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: four people died because of what he did. Whether though
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: he says, well, I didn't have anything to do with it,
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: I don't believe you. Actually, it really does point to
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: you at being you. But he doesn't want to live
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: with that on it conscious right, because it wasn't about
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: he didn't see himself as a killer, more so more
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: of a hey I can fix it. Look at me,
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: I fix it. I knew everything, you know. So that's
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: really all I had to say about this case. I've
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: said enough over the last and a half now.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: But one of the interesting articles I read and I
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: didn't include it.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: He and his wife.
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, he writes for the prison newspaper. He does, but
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: he had I'm trying to think of the correct word.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: He had ed issues throughout his marriage. And I read
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: one article that a family member who asked to remain anonymous,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: when they went back and looked, some of their best
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: bedroom moments were after these fires.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: No knew, its knew.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: It's so now this case. I mean, I fire, I
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: respect fire, but fire scares the shit out of me.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: Don't play with fire, kids, don't don't do it. Don't.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: It scares the shit out of me. And here was
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: a man who was trusted to protect the public. He
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: wore the firefighter's uniform. I mean he was not hot
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: in it, but he trained others and he stood at
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: the front of fire investigations. But guys, underneath that, he
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: was just a piece of shit who abused his position.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: And to me, he terrorized his community.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: Oh oh, Kelly's busy. But and and I think what
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: stays with me the most is the human cause. You know,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: we talk about the psychological, the investigation, the trials, the evidence,
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: but at the heart of this it is not just
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: the four people who were killed. Yeah, I no that yeah,
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: never flick your big I mean that used to be
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: a commercial. But think about the homes that were lost.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: People could never go home again, and that's something that
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: we need to stop and think about. Because the damage
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: he left, I don't think we can put a price
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: tag on it. But also, guys, one of the reasons
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: I like telling these stories is because they are real
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: people who deserved better. You know, not all firefighters are bad.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: Not all are bad. He is a piece of shit,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: and John write that in your newspaper.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: I do think more focus needs to be on firefighters, though,
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: what is happening? Why is this such a hundred firefighters
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: here get arrested for this and those are just ones
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: to get caught. You guys, eighties, you would be happy
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: to know.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: I got asked why I was in California by somebody
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: at the hotel when I said we're we were from
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: and asked me if I travel a lot, and I
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: said I was in Ohio recently, and he goes, oh,
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: are you a buck Eys fan? I'm like, absolutely, go
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: buck guys. I get not called in the Black Eyed piece.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: I think, go buck Guys?
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: Did you go? Oh? I didn't know they would have
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: said it that probably you should do it. Try it
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: one time when you're in Europe and let me know
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: what happens. Okay, right out here, we like.
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: A lot of Americans right now, you'll be surprised.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. All right, Well,
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: we're gonna wrap up this show tonight, all right, but
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: before we go, if you like what you heard tonight,
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: be sure to follow all of our socials and subscribe
• 1:49:17
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• 1:49:21
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• 1:49:24
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• 1:49:27
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• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: and thank you now, guys.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: Next week on True Crime and Wine Time, I will
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: not be here, Lama has a special co host.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: Yes we share, we say who it is so lovely
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: Lady and Greg. Lady Lady and Greg will be joining
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: me next week one of our mods and researchers and writers.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: She's been on before. She'll he's coming on again.
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: So yes, and guys, they are covering the storage unit
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: of death a Tennessee whore, and I'm going to just
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: say it's going to be dark.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: And you don't want to miss it.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: I am going to try to catch it live, spitting
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: on the time difference because I need.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: To know more. I know Zippy Zapp about this case,
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: so I'm excited about it as well. Okay, I actually
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: went to the Star.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: Wars exhibit at Disney and took pictures. I was not
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: able to ride the ride that they have because they
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: said if you have a heart condition, you shouldn't ride it,
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: so I did not need it, but I went there
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: and I even saw the guys in the white Storm storms.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: I asked somebody what their name was, and they wouldn't
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: take their picture with me as I tried.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: Just for you guys, oh boy. Now, if you need
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: more of Terry True Crime and you can always find
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: us doing something on our True Crime and Winetime YouTube channel.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 2: Midday Missing airs every Monday and Wednesday here on our
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: Challenge Facebook. And even though Miss Terry is going to
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: be gone in Europe, she has already recorded episodes, so
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: this will still be continuing every Monday and Wednesday one
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: pm Eastern while she's gone, She's not taking a break.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: She's a super woman right now, you guys, Tomorrow at
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: eleven am Eastern, I will continue reading the latest letters
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: from Chad Daybell while he's been sitting on death row.
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: That's right, and you guys, there's something else because of course,
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: of course we got two to read tomorrow, so I'm
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: very excited. Somebody's behind on their schedule.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: Chad, girl, I got shit to do tomorrow. I am
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: not packed, I am behind on work, and you're gonna
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: read day Bells letters.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: So well, there's only two, I know, but it's not
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: going to be very long. You can yell at Chad
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: because his career, his release. Oh we're gonna release these
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday. Or no, lies, lies. I haven't
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: done this in two weeks. I should have had four
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: stories again two whatever? Are you surprised? The lied? No? Okay,
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: just shows this character. All right. You say you're gonna
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: do something, cheare I do it now? You guys. At
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: nine pm Eastern tomorrow night, we will be debuting our
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: show TMI Too Much Internet to all of our followers.
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: It's a laid back fun show where our staff has
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: scoured the Internet looking for the craziest, funniest and bizarre
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: corners of the Internet to share with all of you.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: Now we do this show for our members every Friday,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: but the first Friday of every month is for all
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: of our followers and subscribers. You won't want to miss it.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be there Elbow if he's gonna be there,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: Amos and Lady and Gray is gonna be on that
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: one as well, and we're very excited to do that.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: So be sure to subscribe and hit the notification bell
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: so you don't miss when we go live or drop
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: an episode. Now, is there anything you would like to
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: say before we go and sign up? Well, I'm excited.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not on this show and I'm not a member,
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: so I get to watch the show tomorrow night, so
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: I get to be.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: In the chat. It's gonna be good and I'm kind
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: of excited.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: But I mostly want to thank everyone for joining us
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: tonight live. I also want to thank those who watch
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: this on replay. I know I am really bad about
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: saying thank you to everybody who watches us later.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, replay, cru we love you, I don't we love you?
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: And for those that are listening on the podcast, your
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 1: support really means a lot to us.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: I mean it does. Oh look at that miss.
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: Let's see is it a miss or Amos. How am
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: I feeling about her right now? Okay, Miss Amos has
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: gifted five True Crime and Wine Time membership. I am
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: sad this is my last time on camera for a
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks, but I will be recording videos and
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: different things that we can share with members, share with everybody.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: I will definitely try to pop in when I can,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: and for those of you that are not aware, I.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: Will be trumping through Finland.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: Austria and Paris. Yes and hoping that I follow all
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: of my safety tips that I've been giving on Midday
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: Missing because there are some things going on over there
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: that we need to be careful of as we travel.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: So until next time, I'm gonna stay safe. I want
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: you all to stay safe. I don't need to come
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: back to any of our lovelies having issues, Okay, I
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: can't handle that. And most importantly, enjoy your wine time
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: because I am going to be drinking a whole lot
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: the next couple of weeks.
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us until
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: next time. Take care of your mind, take care of
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: each other, and never stop asking the hard questions. Now,
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: as I wus say, go forth and be amazing. Hi