Latest / Conservation Stories / When Farmers Lose Their Voice: The Economics of Survival in Agriculture

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When Farmers Lose Their Voice: The Economics of Survival in Agriculture · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, friends. It's Tillery, Tim and Sims here again on another episode of Conservation Stories. Conservation Stories is a podcast brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research Association. And as you all, if you've been listeners to the podcast for any length of time, you know that we have a very broad range of interest, and that is because we see all ecosystems as interconnected. So our health is interconnected with our environment, and that's interconnected with our economics. And every kind of ecosystem in is interplaying together. And we look at all of those ecosystems through how can we benefit people Planet profits through projects. And the intersection of those three things is sustainability. So because of that, we have people on that maybe are nutritionists or talking about GLPs. We just had that conversation earlier today. And then Adam Chapel, I had the privilege of hearing in Lubbock, Texas. Now, let me tell you, in Lubbock, Texas, in January, there was this thing called the American Agriculture Movement. And we have already recorded a podcast with a historian, Lee Lancaster, where we talked about his book that he wrote in Georgia and just the history. And I learned that farmers got thrown in the slammer in McAllen, Texas. And I had no idea. I had no idea. That's where I met Adam, because he spoke. And actually, as you were speaking, Adam, I thought seen this guy before. I've seen this guy before. I'd seen the. Isn't it we the people that has
• 1:46
  Speaker B: the video More Perfect Union.
• 1:49
  Speaker A: That's it. I'm sorry, More Perfect Union. Yeah, I'll say. It's preamble to the Constitution, something. So anyway, Adam, our listeners are like, some of them are farmers, some of them are in ag, you know, related businesses. Some of them are my mom. Hi, Mom. And you know, just people like that, just people that are living in town, people that are living in the country. We get some, a couple people listening in New York and but most of them are folks from right around here. And so that kind of gives you like this. We have this wide variety of people that are listening. So sometimes I might say time out, like, what does that acronym mean? You know, so but what I, what I loved about what you did was you really brought it down to help us understand where we are in agriculture today. And we, we all know about antitrust laws and things like that and how much we've gone down this road with agriculture that has changed our culture so much. So I would love for you to tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, how you got into what you're Doing and we'll just roll.
• 3:05
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm a fourth generation farmer in cotton plant, Arkansas, which is. Right.
• 3:12
  Speaker A: Arkansas.
• 3:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. Right north of Interstate 40, about halfway between Memphis and Little Rock, so not hard to find. And my family's been here for a long time. We, we're not landowners, we're tenant farmers and have been the whole time. So, you know, we don't, we don't have a lot of generational wealth, I guess you'd say, like.
• 3:34
  Speaker A: Right.
• 3:35
  Speaker B: It's. We've just made it that land equity is not there.
• 3:40
  Speaker A: That's what a lot of people are pulling from here is, is just land. That's interesting.
• 3:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, most of the people I know are tenant farmers. So, you know, the, it's, that's who's
• 3:52
  Speaker A: on, who owns the land there.
• 3:55
  Speaker B: So the people we have been farming for, they were the original families that came in here and cleared this land, you know, from timber and took it to farmland and then some of them farmed it for theirself for a little while, but most of them rented it out and kept clearing land and, you know, doing it like that. So they, they pay for the land with the timber they cleared and.
• 4:15
  Speaker A: Right.
• 4:16
  Speaker B: And rented it out to people like us. But all my landowners, sir. Yeah, all my landowners are, they're all absentee, but they're all very involved in the farm. I'm. I'm lucky to have that because I've got a lot of buddies that have landowners that just want a check and whoever can write them the biggest check, that's what they want. And you know, you know, that's not to say that written land isn't competitive. It is. I mean, if, you know, if I was just really not doing a good job, I don't think I'd still be here. But you know, I've got some really good landowners and I'm, I consider myself to be in a, in a lucky spot because I don't think anymore people are so disconnected from the farmland that their family owned that it's just a, it's just numbers on a paper form. You know, it's just a, an asset and it's not anything personal anymore, so. Right.
• 5:12
  Speaker A: Well, where we are, I was just talking to a guy who is like, if you're, if you've been here 100 years, you're an antique where we are, you know, I mean, we're like the last place anybody wanted to live. Yeah, but they really wanted land.
• 5:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
• 5:26
  Speaker A: You know, and so, but you know, there's just nobody left in the family that, that wants the land, you know.
• 5:33
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 5:34
  Speaker A: That or that is going to farm it. And, and so it's probably gonna be sold off, you know.
• 5:40
  Speaker B: Well, you know, even if you are a landowner, I mean if you look at the numbers in agriculture today, why would you want to farm it? You know what, why would you want to expose yourself to that kind of risk? So you know, it's, it's. I don't blame them for not wanting to come back and farm.
• 5:55
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, as, as a farmer who went through. So my husband went through ag bankruptcy and we brought out Texas has in our constitution like we have our founding Texas fathers were basically a lot of them were running from creditors and they came to Texas, you know what I mean? And that's why they actually said come and take it because it's blood from return up or whatever. So they like literally built into our, our constitution like they did not want citizens to get a financial issue and then have to leave the state. They wanted them to be able to stay there. And so anyway, so. But we were able to bring debt, some of our land debt through with us. And so we were able to keep. And then we sold off some and then we paid off another. And, and so we still have land. And, and I will just say like God bless the guy that farms our land. He is, he's, he's fantastic and he's made. He, he has his, the, the efforts and the success he's had on, on, you know, keeping our land producted has been part of the reason why I'm not forever bitter at agriculture.
• 7:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Well, it's, it's easy to be bitter with agriculture right now for sure. It's tough out there. But. Yeah, but other than that, we, we, we grow cotton, corn, soybeans, rice, a little bit of winter grains, wheat or oats. We're starting to diversify into animals. You know, we've got, we've got a small chicken operation. We're working on pasture raised chicken and we're starting to get into meat. Sheep, the Katahdin sheep. We're trying to get that going this year. So we're doing some, we're trying to diversify and decommoditize as much as we can because.
• 7:45
  Speaker A: Interesting.
• 7:48
  Speaker B: Yeah yeah. Commodity commodities are just. Well right now they're negative. I mean for most parts of the country.
• 7:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:57
  Speaker B: Growing anything. Corn, soybeans, rice, cotton. It's. You're, you're basically asking to go broke. I mean it's, it's just Terrible spot we're in. And, you know, we. We've been able to keep our head above water and, you know, keep. Stay successful by making cuts and doing it smart, you know, with. In relying on things like cover crops and composting and things like that that, you know, a lot of people just look at like it's some hippie way to farm, but when you, when you dig into it and learn how to do it, it's a good way to farm a lot, A lot cheaper than. Than the. The status quo. So we've. We've actually been able to break even or, or stay in the black a little bit these last few years, and it's because of the way we farm.
• 8:54
  Speaker A: That's amazing. And, you know, so I. You're my fifth episode. Podcast episode to record today, and my first one was our local ag. I would call him an applied economist. And he was talking about, you know, we. We were talking about how much our culture has been impacted by innovation, you know, good and bad that, like, that people are having to think back to like the 50s and like, they're. We're gonna have to farm like our great grandparents did. And then the difference of that is, like, how much more management time it takes.
• 9:36
  Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, you can. You can spend your time thinking and managing, or you can spend your time doing tasks that we've always done, you know, like, I know right now it's wet here in Arkansas, but just. Let's just start with this spring. I've got people around the entire state. It's not just my neighbors, it's the entire state. As soon as it gets dry and the weather's nice, all the big diesel tractors will fire up and we'll start burning diesel like crazy. And we won't. We will sit there, we're ready to plant, we're going to no till everything. And we've got cover crops growing, you know, so I don't know, you know, maybe they look at me and think I'm lazy, but I'd rather keep that money in my pocket than tear everything down, slick it off, and do it all over again. It's. It. There's nothing wrong with the ground the way it is. And know I can make a strong case for, you know, water management and weed management and things by not tilling the soil, you know, so, you know, I. I don't really get into the till, no till debate. You know, you got to do what you got to do, but I choose not to. And my bottom line is a lot healthier for it, you know, so there's a lot of things we do like that, that, that I have just come to believe are just unnecessary. And I think the proofs in the numbers, I mean, I'm making the same yields as everybody else and I'm doing it on half the money. It's, it's in, in the. At the pace at which this way of farming is not getting adopted. I mean, it's real slow. It's a few people here and there. I don't understand that.
• 11:18
  Speaker A: Yes, yes.
• 11:19
  Speaker B: I just, I just can't understand it. I, you know, you would think, and especially in these times that you would be trying anything you could to save, save, save, save. And, and, and it's usually the opposite. They're usually doubling down and trying to maximize yield even more. And that's what's getting us in this spot, you know. So.
• 11:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, I, I will say, you know, I think we're seeing changes. We're seeing. I just. In the last two years, there's, you know, conversations that I've been part of or overheard. You know, I've been surprised to hear people like, really start talking realistically about. Because for us, we're, we're in that opposite position. And you know what. Ls like, well, you probably have 20 years of irrigation left, you know, and so that was the conversation Darren and I were having earlier about the com is like, we're going to hit this brick wall. We're going to be going 20 miles an hour, 100 miles an hour. How fast we going to be going? You know, and so how do we help people transition? But I mean, I'm telling you, people are here, they're like, oh, they're, they're more open, but they're also more. Very discouraged.
• 12:27
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker A: And, and just very despondent. You know what I mean? Like, just the, just to have. And just see people that I love. Sorry. I was there last two days and I just think in my hometown just, you know, I, I hate to see it, you know, and there's value that's there, but you know, like I don't live there anymore. I live in the city in. Love it, you know. But my, I'm still feel such a strong connection to that county, you know.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:57
  Speaker A: And, and how, how to, you know, really actually bring something that is a viable opportunity to me. That is my, that's my goal in life before I die. What can I bring a viable opportunity to my home county where my grandparents settled. Great grandparents. Great grandparents settled. You know, we're not as Old as y'.
• 13:23
  Speaker B: All.
• 13:23
  Speaker A: But that's what I want when I look at where we are. And I'm sure you are familiar with Wendell Berry. Yeah. So the unsettling of America, that was kind of the first like eye opening book for me. And then I feel like listening to you talk about consolidation and putting the facts and the numbers out there because you're not just. People seem to think, a lot of people think farmers aren't educated. You know, I think uneducated farmers are also very intelligent. You know what I mean? But also when you have a degree in economics and, or I think it's economics anyway. But you, the data that you showed was like, here's the information, here's the facts.
• 14:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm a science nerd. I got a master's in entomology, so.
• 14:15
  Speaker A: Oh, entomology.
• 14:19
  Speaker B: The economic knowledge I had was through the school of hard knocks. I've had to learn all that the hard way. So yeah, definitely, definitely not an economist, but smart enough to read data and make decisions and, and see what's going on. I mean, yeah, that, that data that I showed, the reason I even dug into that and, and what it is for your listeners that didn't see that talk, it's, it's profit margins over the last three years for big ag versus farmers. And over the last three years farmers have been had a negative return of several hundred dollars per acre. So negative profit margin while the big ag corporations have maintained 20 or better. Now that, and I think I mentioned on that, that slide that you know, I had the, the originators of seed and chemicals so bears and the cortevas and then, and then I had also on there the retail, some retail people in, in their profit margins. So essentially with that product, seed, chemical, whatever it was, fertilizer for both of those entities structures to maintain a 20 margin. That means they're squeezing 40 out of a farmer. So there's 40% plus markup there. So they can each maintain their 20 margin. While we're out here asking taxpayers to help us get out of this hole that they have put us in. And you know, for anybody that thinks I'm passing the buck or whatever or just go buy something somewhere else. We're talking about two companies that control all of the fertilizer. We're talking about four companies that control all of the seed genetics and technology. Five companies that control all of the chemistry in the United States. Similar on the buying side, four or five major players that control all of the buying of grain and cotton in the United States. So where else do you go? Where can you go buy something somewhere else. You know, machinery, same deal. We've got two major companies controlling over 90% of the machinery in the United States. So where are you going to go? So, you know, John Q. Public, they, they give me, you know, they give me crap all the time when I post things like this. We'll just go somewhere else or just sell to somebody else or, you know, you can't do that.
• 16:45
  Speaker A: Well, it's like people that have never experienced living somewhere where they, they don't have. There is one grocery store.
• 16:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 16:55
  Speaker A: Or it's an inner city. I remember the first time I stayed in inner city in, in D.C. and realized the only place within legitimate walking distance was a 7:11.
• 17:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:11
  Speaker A: It was a food desert in the middle. No, and, and all of our rural communities are food deserts. Like, I'm just telling you, you know, it's bad. And, but if you have lived in a situation your entire life where you could choose between Whole Foods, Trader Joe's in Safeway and Walmart in Target.
• 17:33
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker A: It's hard to fathom, like, hey, why don't you, why don't you just quit going to, you know, it's like telling somebody go somewhere else when there is nowhere else to go.
• 17:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, well. And you know, another argument I hear all the time is, well, just grow stuff that people want. Okay, well, sure, I can do that. I can, you know, I can grow some broccoli, lettuce, whatever. I can grow those things. I do it every year in my garden for fun. But, you know, Arkansas's got a million people in the entire state. So, you know, we could, we could produce enough to feed the entire state on just a few thousand acres. You know, so what? That's not an option. You know, it's more people need to grow food like that regionally. I agree wholeheartedly. I'd love to be one of them. But the fact is we've got way more land resource than we have need for food. I mean, we just do. So we, we can grow cattle or we can grow commodities. And you know, right now cattle's on an upswing, but they just came off of a terrible 1012 year down downswing, you know, so it's right now we are trapped in a commodity system. And until the entire industry decides to change. And by industry, I mean government policy, the big ag firms, everybody. Because right now infrastructure and policy is geared for corn and soybeans. So it doesn't matter what you do. You, you, you can grow like Right here in Arkansas, I could grow all the. Should say sunflowers, for example. I could grow sunflowers here, but where am I going to take them?
• 19:13
  Speaker A: Right?
• 19:15
  Speaker B: There's no. There's no terminal for sunflowers here. So, you know, just grow something else is not a good argument. You know, it's just. So we're. We're trapped in a system that has been designed wholly by Big Ag. They have developed the policy that is. Is the Farm Bill to. To benefit them. It does not benefit rural America. It does not benefit small farmers. And in my part of the world, large farmers are taking a beating just as bad as the small one.
• 19:43
  Speaker A: So, yeah, same here. It doesn't matter. We don't really matter here because, yeah, it's a lot like, you know, there's just so little value per acre here. So you form a lot of land. So. Yeah. So. Have you ever heard of a guy named Michael McNeil?
• 20:00
  Speaker B: Michael McNeil.
• 20:01
  Speaker A: I heard him on John Camps. He spoke at Acres with John Kemp, and he worked at USDA. I have Michael McNeil, if you're out there and you hear this podcast, I am trying to contact you. Your phone number is not on. And I know how to find people on the Internet, let me tell you. So anyway, but he. He's tells about working for USDA and like 70s, 80s during the crisis, and he said that there was actually. There's actually documented. I don't know if it was a policy, a memo or something that is actually. You can still get it from USDA or you can still read it. I haven't found it because I haven't been able to help. So basically, USDA is saying we have too many farmers, and then they created policies that they thought would help cut down on farmers, and then it got to be a train that they couldn't stop.
• 21:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, Earl Butts is the one that started that get big or get out farm fence row to fence row. Yeah, that was a terrible thing. And it's only benefited corporations. It's not benefiting farmers, you know?
• 21:18
  Speaker A: No. And. And, you know, so the other conversation I have with Darren Hudson, who is on my first recording today, the Economist, was just. I mean, our whole society is different. Our whole society is different than it was two generations ago. Like, what our grandparents were so satisfied with, like, we would not. Like, nobody, nobody wants to live that way anymore. You know what I mean? Like, none of us do. Whether we live in the country or whether we live, you know, in town, everybody. We are always. We're just led by the nose. I feel like I don't even wonder sometimes. Like, are the decisions I make on what I buy and what I need? My decisions?
• 22:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:01
  Speaker A: Or am I so influenced by. By marketing that, you know, what I need is way beyond what I think I need is way beyond what actually is sufficient.
• 22:15
  Speaker B: That's a. That's an absolute fact. There's a reason companies spend billions and billions of dollars on advertising and marketing. It's because it works. You know, they. They get us to do things without us even knowing it. And. And, you know, even the. Even the. Even if you're ultra cognizant of that, you know that. You know, every commercial you see, every ad, everything is trying to get you to do something, you still end up doing it. It's hard to. It's hard to. Not exactly. You know, I think. I think about that all the time. You know, I've got a pickup truck with 400, 000 miles on it, and I refuse to buy a new pickup truck. I'm not gonna. I am not gonna pay a hundred thousand dollars for the equivalent of what I have, you know, but. But I'm not giving up air conditioning, and I'm not giving up hot water. And, you know, those are pretty. Those are pretty basic examples, but, you know, we could definitely do with less. Yeah, but. But, you know, I. I catch myself in the store all the time. I go in there for one thing and come out with three things.
• 23:19
  Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
• 23:20
  Speaker B: You know, so, you know, you don't even know you're doing it till it's. Till it's too late. So, yeah, I don't know. It's. It's. I. I try to be cognizant of all of that, but dang, you see something online and, you know.
• 23:33
  Speaker A: Well, it's. Yeah, I was laughing. People, like, People always wear weird glasses. Like, these are my calm glasses. My. Yeah, normal glasses. And people are always saying, I like the glasses. I'm like, well, here. Where'd you get them? I'm like, here's what you do. You. You think I like tiller's glasses. And then you open up Facebook and the ad will appear for those glass.
• 23:53
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 23:53
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Weird. Like, it just feels that way, you know? Well, so is there. And I. I asked this question to. To David at the American Agricultural Movement meeting that you had, and he talked about that Farmer Rancher Congress. I learned about that Farmer Rancher Congress, which was fascinating. And I'm like, can you do the same thing? Can you bring farmers and ranchers together? You know, in two points, I don't, I can't remember there were several of us in that conversation, but two things that came up was, was one is the sense of community is. Is different now than it used to be. There's not that loyalty, sense of attachment, sense of. My choices don't. I am responsible to make choices that don't necessarily have a really negative impact on people around me. You know, like, because I. These are like we've moved away from so much of like that's who I sit next to on the pew on Sunday or you know, my cousin's married to, you know, his granddaughter or you know what I mean? Like, those kind of things are. We're moving in a direction kind of away from those type of relationships that we've had. And so maybe we don't have that type of responsibility towards one another. That, that feeling. And, and the other thing is that there's just not. We're not a big enough voter base anymore for there to be will in Washington to take anything seriously. That farmers. And. And I, I will say this is just my, my personal opinion that there is a lot of guarding of the commodity instead of a supporting of the farmer.
• 25:56
  Speaker B: Like absolutely.
• 25:58
  Speaker A: You know, like, like. And I. We are the. The director of our. The biggest cotton black organization. Aaron Lubbock, Steve Barrett. He is just the smartest, most brilliant leader in my opinion. And I called him one day to ask him because I was in. Interested in him and doing some research on the grain and fiber side, particularly grain and the economics and that kind of stuff and said I. I started feeling this like the resistance of just even suggesting that something else could be grown. You know, like there's this chimp is weird anyway. You know what I mean? It's just a weird thing to be talking about. But Steve said to me, if it keeps a cotton farmer from growing broken, I totally am in support of that. I don't take my money. But you know, but at the same time I'm like that. It seems like, man, that's. I wish that was the mentality that we knew that everyone had, you know, is that we're. What we're doing is supporting the farmer. Yeah, whatever that looks like.
• 27:11
  Speaker B: Well, that's a rare, that's a rare mentality in my opinion that that guy has. So I applaud him for that.
• 27:18
  Speaker A: But you know, and very progressive. More like, you know, like you are being there. They've done a lot of, you know, that the kind of thinking that you're thinking. But more in our in our course place where we are like, what can we do different?
• 27:32
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. Well, yeah. So every meeting I've ever been to in D.C. or, or with people like that, you know, I've been on several calls that were with policymakers and you know, think tanks and the, the overwhelming sentiment is to protect the commodity system. And the reason that is, is because the people that write the checks to these folks are get making a killing off the commodity system. You know, corn and soybeans and cotton. I mean, those are, those are things that these companies are making a killing on. So they don't want that to change. They gotta, they got a license to print money. And you know, if we start diversifying into things that they don't have their hand in, then, then they're losing.
• 28:23
  Speaker A: And so, yeah, the way I think of it sometimes is like, you know, people are always like, farmers are getting subsidies. And I'm like, well, actually. And then people say, no, it's for keeping your groceries low. I'm like, I don't think so. But what I see is like, you have this lobbying power that is, you know, we're, we're going to keep the farmer just on the margin and when they're about to go down, then we're going to come in and lobby that they get these government payments. And so I mean, I, I, I honestly think don't know a farmer that would not just say, hey, if I did not have to have the government anything I did, I'd be just happy, you know what I mean? If you could just farm and get them out, you know. But it's like, no, our subsidies are not for us. They're paying for the companies that you're talking about to not have to pay an honest price.
• 29:25
  Speaker B: Well, it's a, it's a money laundering scheme is what it is. I mean, you know, these companies, and this is what I said in that talk, they, they know exactly, exactly. They spend billions on data collection and analytics. And they do it as, a lot of times they'll do it, they'll, it's like a Trojan horse. They'll say, oh, here, if you put this software on your tractor or your combine, we'll give you this iPad and it'll do it all for you. You know, they, they give us free stuff and then that data is turned right back around and weaponized against us. So they know how much yield we're making. They know how much we're spending on everything and they price their stuff. If we're, if, if we're at a Hundred dollars. They price theirs up to 99.98. You know, so there's zero, just a fraction of a margin. And if something in the world happens to where we can't pay those bills, well, then they start lobbying the government for a bailout. You know, they started, they started. Big Ag, started lobbying for bailouts in 2024 because they saw this cliff coming. You know, it started to. We got close to the brink on 23, then 24, 25 have been disasters. And we've gotten so many billions of dollars in the last two years, and it's continuing. We got another 12 billion coming out this month. They're talking about another 15 to 20 billion. You know, this is all driven by this cycle that Big Ag keeps putting us in. They've got a 20 margin. We're at negative. And that 20 margin, let me, let me tell you, that's not their net over expenses and all that's. That's after all their bills are paid, all their bonuses are paid, that this is their money left over. And they use that for stock buybacks, dividends to shareholders. So this is just, this is just unbridled profit that is, that is not reinvested into technology. It's not reinvested into anything. It's given out to shareholders. And, you know, and they know what they can squeeze, and they do it every year, and they will continue to do it as long as the government keeps writing these checks. Now, as far as government involvement, I'm like the rest of these farmers. If I didn't have to deal with them, that'd be great. But they are the only ones that have the power to stand up to these companies because it's gotten to the point now we can't boycott one and go to the other. There's no such thing. There's too few of them. So I think the government involvement needs to shift from handing out money to this that goes right back to these companies to holding these companies accountable and, and enforcing antitrust laws that have been on the books since the Great Depression. Why, why do we even have them if you're not even going to look at them and use them? You know, they do so many things. Patent manipulation, you know, zone pricing. They have so many dirty.
• 32:23
  Speaker A: Okay, those two things right there that you talked about, I was like, what, that the different prices of seed?
• 32:29
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Same exact seed.
• 32:32
  Speaker A: Tell the story.
• 32:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I've got buddies that farm out there in Texas in the panhandle around Lovett, right. And we talk back and forth about cotton varieties and this has been several years ago, but I was asking about a variety of seed, and they were growing it out there. Anyway, long story short, they were paying $300 for that sack of seed. I was paying 620. Now, this is not a different variety. This isn't a different tech package. This is the exact same bag.
• 33:05
  Speaker A: Right?
• 33:05
  Speaker B: So I started looking, because I was thinking, well, shoot, I'm gonna go buy all my seed in Texas. Well, if you go through your technology agreement.
• 33:13
  Speaker A: Excuse me. Just let me sneeze real quick.
• 33:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. Okay.
• 33:17
  Speaker A: I think I. Okay.
• 33:18
  Speaker B: So, yeah, so I was gonna go to Texas. You know, you're thinking, well, shoot, if you can save 100, you know, 50%, go to Texas and buy your seed.
• 33:26
  Speaker A: Right.
• 33:26
  Speaker B: Well, I started looking on my technology use agreement, and if I buy seed outside of my zone, then I. Look, I'm. I'm in. I can be fined. I can lose my technology use agreement license, all these things, penalties. So they can charge me 600 and charge the guys in Texas 300. And so I asked my rep about that, and he said, well, y' all get more value from the tech than they do, so we charge you more. And I'm like, that. What? That's like. That'd be like me and you. I'm a farmer, and you podcast host and among other things, I'm assuming, just not farmer. Okay. If we went and bought the same pickup. Yeah, if we. If we went and bought the same exact pickup truck, they would charge me more for the pickup truck than you because I'd get more use out of the bed of the pickup truck because I'm a farmer. That's. That's stupid. And they are allowed to do that. That is legal for them to do. And it's not just cottonseed. It's every seed. Every seed.
• 34:28
  Speaker A: Well, and you mentioned the. The patent, like, the. The innovation. The charge that you're. The charge that you have on, like, Roundup Ready, or, you know, like, they keep adjusting the patent just a little bit.
• 34:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, the patent manipulation. So, you know, once a. Once a technology goes off patent, like Velcro, for example, been off patent forever. Velcro is ubiquitous, right?
• 34:51
  Speaker A: Yes. Right.
• 34:52
  Speaker B: And if. If the people that made Velcro had the ability to just change one little word in their patent and get a new patent, then we'd be paying who knows what for Velcro. Well, that's what these seed companies do. They will move. They're like, take Roundup ready. Roundup Ready came out in 1994. A patent is usually between seven and 10 years. We're still paying tech fees on Roundup Ready because they will move the. The technology one gene pair over or one gene sequence over, however they say that, and then get a new patent. Because then they say it's a novel event. Well, it's not a novel event. It's the same tech. There's nothing new being created. But our government allows that to happen so they can keep a monopoly on this tick. That's why all the little seed companies are dead. And, you know, that's why we don't have competition, because you have to license that tick. That will never come off a patent because of the way they do that. You know, they've got us in. In our government is allowing it to happen. And it's criminal. It's criminal.
• 35:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. Now. And, you know, I think a lot of times you can. You can talk about these things, and people are like, you're not a capitalist. I'm like, no, I actually am a capitalist. I think it's the best form of economic systems that we have. But it doesn't mean it's not flawed, that it doesn't mean that, like, it also doesn't appeal to the greedy.
• 36:21
  Speaker B: Well, and if you're a true capitalist, you ought to covet competition and, and, and despise monopoly, because that is not capitalism anymore.
• 36:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, that.
• 36:31
  Speaker B: That's. You're. You're not a capitalist if you think this is okay. You're just not. Competition in a free market is what makes capitalism good, and that's not what we have. And it's not just ag. It's everywhere. It's our food system, it's our pharmaceutical system. It's. It's everywhere. And it's just getting worse all the time because.
• 36:52
  Speaker A: Right. And, you know, think back to when those antitrust laws were created, and it was, it was because of collusion with railroad. And I mean, and like, the person. The, the, the agency that oversees our oil and gas is the Railroad commission.
• 37:07
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker A: Because the railroads were colluding, you know, like, hey, we're your only source of transportation. You know, and so I'm like, this is. We have those because we've been here before. And. But I just, I wonder sometime, like, how in the world did they turn that ship around and how do we turn our ship around now, you know, before we lose a whole nother group of farmers?
• 37:37
  Speaker B: Well, you know, to get these laws in place the first time, it took a Great Depression and a revolt by the people. We don't want to go through that again, no, you know, that. That was awful. We. I mean, it's still scarred into American history and. But unfortunately, that's probably what it's going to take because it's. I. I don't know. It's. You know, we're so disconnected from that.
• 38:05
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Speaker B: And, you know, that people just don't think it can happen. Well, yeah, I don't know. It's getting worse every year and, and these, These consolidations are continuing to happen. I mean, we're seeing it in the, in the media industry right now. You know, they're buying social media companies, networks. You know, there's gonna be like three guys that are going to own all of that here before long.
• 38:30
  Speaker A: Right.
• 38:30
  Speaker B: Well.
• 38:30
  Speaker A: And that was another place where there was a lot. I mean, those newspapers were colluding as well. So. Yeah, it really is a history kind of repeating itself. Time.
• 38:38
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 38:40
  Speaker A: You know, I. I would say, like, when I think about, you know, my. My parents homeschooled me, and one of the things that we did do a lot of was, you know, history. I would say that I feel like it was propagandized in a lot of ways, the history that we learned. But that particular, you know, so I do. I can. I have frames of reference for, you know, these events, and I think a lot of times people don't necessarily even have a frame of reference for that. Seem like just such a flip on the map, you know what I mean, of history. It's not as interesting as, I don't know, the Romans or Lewis and Clark or whatever, you know, but it was really. Oh, such a bleak. Such a bleak time.
• 39:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, it was terrible. You know, unemployment at levels that, you know, we had. We had. Well, all these things are starting to manifest again. You know, we had the Hoovervilles. You know, I know you've read about those. The, the shanty towns from all the unemployed folks in the middle of big cities and stuff.
• 39:40
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:41
  Speaker B: That our homeless epidemic is getting crazy. I mean, this. This stuff is all starting to creep back in and it's. It's happening right in front of us, and our government is just inept. And I'm not singling out this administration alone. I don't want people to think I just am a Trump hater or whatever, but this has been going on across.
• 39:59
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. This is. This is not. This is not a year in the making. Yeah.
• 40:03
  Speaker B: No, no, this is decades happening. This is.
• 40:05
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 40:05
  Speaker B: Literally since that, that switch over from. From Earl Butts on in ag. At least that's when it started.
• 40:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Speaker B: And and, and that's about the same time that the deregulations and things on monop. On corporations and stuff started happening. I mean, you can't trust these people to do the right thing. That's obvious.
• 40:26
  Speaker A: And I think it's interesting because I would, I think that, you know, most people in agriculture would say I'm like, most of them, I don't, I don't want to be like, too, like, generalizing, but I think, I would think most of them would say they are of the Judeo Christian faith. Like, yeah, they are like the Bible in some form. And you know, part of that basis of that, you know, is this sense of like, people are flawed, people are sinners, people are going to corrupt things, but we don't, we don't seem to look like. And we put in laws so that people, the individuals of us, lose our freedoms based on, I feel like every law, you get somebody named by it. You know what I mean? Like, that idiot did this, so now none of us can do this. But, you know, it does feel like that an entity isn't treated as though it's full of people that have the same problem.
• 41:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, and actually the opposite. The entities get all the benefits of people, you know, all the protections, you know, but, but when it comes time to hold them accountable, it's like they don't, it's like it's not possible. It just, it doesn't make any sense.
• 41:48
  Speaker A: Well, and, you know, you think a lot of it, of course, you were going to solve the world's problems today, but yeah, some of it, I think, goes back to the fact that lobbying is such a huge deal. It's, it's absolutely on its own and that are. We don't have term limits. Okay, so this is all this. Let me just make a disclaimer. These views being expressed, are those not of the host or the guest of this podcast? Yeah, they're just like. So we don't usually get into anything that's, like, controversial, you know what I mean? And so I just, I, what I love to do is bring people on that can say, here's what I know, here's the facts, here's these things, and here's things for you to think about, you know, and let people make up their own mind. So disclaimer is do what you want with all this information and, and make up your own mind. Yeah, that's my disclaimer. You know, and so, so I, I, I just want people to be able to have access to information.
• 42:49
  Speaker B: Sure. You know, I mean, you know, term. Lim. Term limits are controversial to some folks, but the. You're. You hit the nail on the head. The lobbying industry since Citizens United has exploded. It is. It is how policy gets made now, and the people with the most money get what they want, and that's usually at the expense of the general public. And I say people with the most money. I'm including corporations, because according to Citizens United, they are people. And that is silly to me. You know, if you. It's. It's a. It is legal bribery, period. And I don't know how we're ever going to get it back out of the system because the people that are in office now have no appetite for getting it out because they're living fat. I mean.
• 43:37
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Well. And, I mean, I know that there's, like, some. Anyway, there's. I mean that. I think it is very true. I think we have very few statesmen. Yeah. You know, I don't. I mean, you look at Washington who's like, I didn't want to come back for. He's like, I. I do not want to be here for the first place. You know, which probably is one thing that made him a great leader, you know, was. But, you know, then he's like, no, I'm not going to keep coming back. Yeah, because you need. That is not the intent. The intent is for there to be this changing of the guard.
• 44:17
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. We don't have statesman. We have politicians now.
• 44:20
  Speaker A: Right. Well, then people say, well, you can't do that because, you know, it takes, you know, so long for people to figure out how things run there. And I'm like, that is a problem because we actually have on the books the way the things are supposed to. You know what I'm saying? But, like, if we don't know that, you don't. You got to learn the secret code book.
• 44:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's just a. That's just a excuse to keep the status quo in place. Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah. Washington is definitely not without its problems. And you're right, we don't have states anymore. And the ones that we did have are long gone. I mean, the last, you know, John McCain, like him or not, that guy did what was best for the country, period. He did not. But guys like him are not there anymore. They're gone. You know, just nobody will speak truth to power, regardless of who's in the White House. You know, with. With the last term, somebody should have been like, hey, Joe's slipping. We got to do something. And with this term, nobody's telling Trump, Trump any of the stuff he's doing wrong. We won't get into what that is. But, you know, everybody's got their own opinion, but the fact is nobody, Nobody speaks truth to power. They're all about their self.
• 45:32
  Speaker A: There's a, A young man running for office here out of Texas, and, and he's running as a Democrat, and I heard him criticizing Biden's immigration policies, like, as he. I mean, no. No what? No, you know, and I was like, you know, it is so. That is so refreshing to hear someone that's willing to say what is best for everyone, you know?
• 45:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. When, when you, when you think your party does no wrong, regardless of which party that is, if you agree with everything they do and think the other side is just stupid or evil or whatever, you're part of the problem.
• 46:14
  Speaker A: Well, and, you know, I think, and I think that these are the times, like, I had breakfast this week with some friends of mine who. And did. We have very differing opinions. And it doesn't matter to us.
• 46:25
  Speaker B: No. And it shouldn't.
• 46:27
  Speaker A: And, and I think for 90% of us, it doesn't. But you have the loud people on either side that get to take over the conversations. And I think that, you know, our, we have to have continually have, you know, conversations, know our neighbor. And that goes back to what is this thing that we've lost that, that Wendell, Mary, you know, foretold? Was that losing of that, the community connection, you know, and, and I, if I think about it so a lot I've thought about it since you guys are here in January, and just, what, what is my responsibility? Like, okay, then what's my. What, what can I, as an individual be doing to reconnect to the places that I'm from, the people that are next door to me, you know, like, how do I go about doing the little. It may seem like nothing, but it is something, you know, and, and I think a lot of people feel that way, what can I do? You know, And I think if you can do something, then you don't feel so guilty about doing that or so compelled by every small thing, you know?
• 47:38
  Speaker B: You know, I've got a farmer friend up in Arkansas that we were in a discussion one day and he told me that farming is an individual contact sport. And I was so disheartened by that statement. I mean, didn't used to be. But he's right. He's right. It is now. And it is. It is cutthroat and People don't care about their neighbors. They only care about their self and their survival. And that has fractured the farmer community and let the things that has happened happen. We. If. If I tried to get even if it, you know, busting up all these monopolies would be in the best interest of every farmer in the country. But if I tried to gather a group of farmers like they did at the tractor Cade In 79, there would be half of them that would be not. Not just disconnected or disassociated. They would be adamantly against what we were trying to do, and it would be because of some perceived political affiliation or some. It would be something that has nothing to do with anything, or it would be an advantage, an opportunity for them to, while we're all fighting a good fight, slip in behind and get something. There is no camaraderie other than just your little tight local circle. And that's bad. That is not good. We need to get back to being a unit, you know, we really do.
• 49:04
  Speaker A: And you know, and I can't remember if it, if it was you that said this or somebody that we're talking about how little influence we have as a, As a voting block. Yeah, well, you know, just rule and ag and somebody, I think somebody said, I can't remember, but that the, like, if that's the truth, then we need to link arms with someone and that needs to be the consumer.
• 49:31
  Speaker B: Yep.
• 49:31
  Speaker A: Because that is who is being. They don't understand that they are, you know, they are not being helped anymore by the policies that are in place now than. Than we are, you know.
• 49:44
  Speaker B: No, no. And you know, I hear the consumer topic a lot and I do completely agree with it. We need to have consumers and just general public back on the side of farmers. I mean, these bailouts are souring. I mean, I hear it all the time. Oh, y' all need some. Need another bailout. Why should I prop y' all up? And I agree, why should you have to. But the fact is right now you got to. But.
• 50:08
  Speaker A: Well, you know, one thing that I think too though, is like, like food security I do think is extremely important. And I think this is my opinion once again, that it should be part of our defense because it. It is that vital. And so that it needs to be food security, you know, and maybe not other things security, you know what I mean? But like, it needs to be food that we know that we can always feed our. Our citizens. We can always feed our troops.
• 50:40
  Speaker B: Yep. Well, you know, right now the United States is a net importer. Of food.
• 50:45
  Speaker A: I know, it blows my mind.
• 50:48
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's because our system doesn't protect food, it protects soybeans and corn.
• 50:55
  Speaker A: You know, the other guy that was there speaking before you talking about like just. And then, you know, this, the lack of, the lack of support for specialty crops blows my mind.
• 51:07
  Speaker B: Yep. Well, I mean, you know, you think about the uses of corn and soybeans. Soybean oil is, you know, not just diesel or fuel, but it's in all kinds of stuff. Plastics, you know, all kinds of food products that are processed terrible for us. And instead of using sugar, we use high fructose corn syrup. So corn's the same way it is in everything. Corn oil is vegetable oil. You know, we use it for ethanol, obviously cattle feed. But there are so many things that we could be growing that we could actually use that would be so much better for us. But our, our policy is corn and soybeans. That's it. That's what the policy is for. And that is set up by the corporations that make a killing on corn and soybeans. That's just, that's just the way it is.
• 51:59
  Speaker A: Well, and I know we, we have a couple of farm families here. They're diversifying into, you know, some other more high value crops to, you know, and I mean, it comes with its own challenges. But the biggest challenges, like if they just, that they just grow traditional commodities, they can have that crop, you know, fully insured. And then, you know, it would take some of the stress off of not just them, but their bank because so many people are. What you can grow is also dictated to you by the bank, which is a whole another story, you know. And so anyway, I, I have, like, this has been really great and this has probably been the most controversial podcast we've ever had. You know what, sometimes it may be like, you know how it is. Sometimes be like I want it going to say something that will not. So then the people will, you know, respond or whatever. We'll see how people, we'll see how people take it.
• 52:46
  Speaker B: Well, you know, they, these are, these are important controversial topics. And you know, somebody's got, somebody's got to say it, you know. Yeah, somebody's got to get it out there, so hopefully they won't be too hard on us. But you know,
• 53:02
  Speaker A: somebody. I've been making, I've been making mid mad since I was 8 years old. If I could figure out how to stop it, I'd do it. I've done it by now.
• 53:08
  Speaker B: Oh, well. Oh, well, thank you.
• 53:11
  Speaker A: Thanks for coming.