Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Soy Té, Carolina

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Interview with Soy Té, Carolina · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan. This is Michael Ho Sunjun, who
0:04
also goes by Sam. Hello.
0:05
Hello. And we're the cofounders of
0:08
Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah, we launched a podcast to
0:10
discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories
0:13
and interview experts. And today we have Carolina from
0:16
Soite joining us. Welcome, Carolina.
0:19
Welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
0:22
Awesome. Likewise.
0:23
So can you share a little bit about your personal and your
0:26
professional background before we jump into this episode?
0:29
So I found that so it. Back in 2000 and. 12 In Mexico
0:34
it is very, very popular, or it was very popular.
0:38
It's becoming less popular. These fruit teas, maybe you're
0:41
familiar with them, The fruit tea sands.
0:45
Yeah, OK. Yeah.
0:46
And I worked for the Mexican government before.
0:49
So I've been around Mexico traveling because I was
0:53
convinced that I was going to be part of the change to make
0:56
Mexico's infrastructure better. So I will just travel
1:00
everywhere. And what's fortunate enough to
1:03
meet a lot of fruit producers that most of the fruit would go
1:07
to waste. So one of the interesting
1:11
things, it's also, I met this guy who was very, very good at
1:15
dehydrating the fruit. Interesting.
1:19
Yeah, yeah, it was very, very cool.
1:21
So that guy helped me dry a lot of fruit.
1:25
And we started making the fruit tea sands back in 2012.
1:29
And that's how so it started, actually, not with tea, but with
1:32
fruit tea sands. And I was very proud to be one
1:35
of the only brands that didn't have hibiscus as a base because
1:40
most brands in Mexico only have hibiscus.
1:42
And I love hibiscus. There's even a hashtag in Mexico
1:45
that is like team Jamaica. I'm totally team Jamaica or team
1:48
hibiscus. But if I'm going to drink
1:50
hibiscus water or like the refreshing thing that you drink
1:54
after you go to have tacos or something, I want my hibiscus.
1:58
Not like other flavors. And these would be like fruity
2:02
but hibiscus because this German company has become very popular
2:06
selling their blends in Mexican like Germany doesn't even have
2:10
fruit. How come Germany is the most
2:13
popular country to make fruit teas or fruit tea sands if they
2:17
don't even have fruit? And the way is that they put a
2:20
lot of flavoring and hibiscus. So it's apple with some sort of
2:26
flavoring and hibiscus. And that's what became very,
2:29
very popular in Mexico. And we started sourcing from
2:32
different producers like jackfruit and star fruit and
2:36
other very tropical fruits to make our blends.
2:40
And that's how so it started through Fruit Tea Sands.
2:45
That's awesome and all using all local products.
2:48
Yes. A very uncommon story for a tea
2:51
business, I think. Yeah.
2:53
All our fruit is local and all our Tissan names are from a
2:58
county or a municipality that has that fruit.
3:02
For example, one of our most most common or popular Tissans
3:06
is Hokotepek, which means in the local language the place where
3:12
the sour fruit grows. And obviously that's our Berry
3:15
mix. Cool.
3:18
So it's even single origin like that's.
3:20
Kind of kind of for some fruits, because some are blends that
3:26
have the main fruit and other ingredients other fruits, but
3:30
yeah. That's cool.
3:33
How did the company evolve into matcha and getting into the
3:36
specialty matcha realm? Yeah, that was back in 2012.
3:40
And then we started importing tea from beer companies in the
3:45
US like i.e., TITIITI&Q, Trade and just other bigger companies.
3:52
So we were basically intermediaries.
3:54
And these we started doing because our customers started
3:57
asking like, hey, can I actually buy other teas from you?
4:02
And I'm like, what do you mean like other teas, right.
4:05
And they're like, well, like English breakfast and I'm like,
4:09
I have no idea what you're talking about because I had zero
4:12
knowledge about tea. So I started sourcing these
4:15
other teas and then I was like, I have no idea what what I'm
4:19
doing. So I'm going to learn about tea.
4:21
So I took these classes with the Specialty Tea Institute and I
4:25
became a whatever master tea, which doesn't mean anything.
4:28
And I don't believe that I'm a master tea certified, but I, I
4:31
became level 4, which at the time was the highest level
4:35
possible that they have. And I'm like, yeah, I still feel
4:39
that I don't know anything. I took the, the certification
4:44
and I continued sourcing teas from them.
4:48
And then in 2018, two, 1017, sorry, 2017, I had the
4:53
opportunity to go to China to visit the tea plantations.
4:57
And that changed all my perspective completely.
5:01
So it actually took me 5 years before I could go to origin and
5:06
decide that I didn't know anything and had to obviously
5:10
learn Chinese, although I never became fluent, but I learned all
5:14
the terminology because I couldn't pronounce any of the
5:18
Chinese tea names and now I I'm more familiar with that.
5:22
So that really helped. And we started focusing more on
5:25
the Chinese way of making tea, like Kong Fu style, and I became
5:30
very passionate about rock teas and Phoenix wolves.
5:36
Very nice. Where in China did you visit?
5:39
Obviously Yunnan places where? Well, near Long Jing and
5:44
obviously Long Jing and Hangzhou.
5:46
Yeah, like basically all the tea area in Anhui.
5:50
Big Tea tour. I guess this is a lot of
5:53
different origins. I got so much this.
5:55
So I visited. China like 7 times in three
5:58
years before they closed their border.
6:01
Wow, that's. Cool.
6:02
Yeah, I I only wanted to be in China.
6:04
I was like so focused and obsessed with learning
6:07
everything I could about Chinese tea.
6:10
OK, Yeah, we have. We share a very similar path.
6:13
Our tea obsession started with kung fucha and then kind of
6:17
evolved into Japanese tea, into matcha.
6:20
So then, so there's a tea san phase, a Kung fucha phase, and
6:23
then how did that evolve into matcha?
6:26
And then in 2020, because in 2019, we actually organized a
6:31
trip with our customers to go to China.
6:33
So I took some customers and we went around visiting some tea
6:38
farmers and tea plantations. It was very cool.
6:41
And we were going to do another one in 2020 with this girl from
6:46
a company called Tiwala, her Mandarin.
6:50
Is very. Good.
6:51
Yeah, her Mandarin is very good. So I would bring the customers
6:55
and she would bring the translation, which was very
6:59
helpful. I'm useful.
7:01
So we were very excited, excited about about the 2020 tea tour.
7:06
It was all set up and then COVID happened, so everything got
7:12
cancelled. And I'm like, I still need to
7:15
keep learning about tea. So I basically stalked Shunam
7:21
until finally I was able to get an appointment with her because
7:25
I knew that she was the tea golems or the Chinese tea
7:28
goddess in in the US at least. And this is the founder of T
7:31
Drunk, right? Yes, the founder of T Drunk and
7:34
Shunan was like, oh, sure, I will help you.
7:37
And she started questioning me like if I had to pass a final
7:41
Test and like, I don't know anything about what you're
7:46
talking about. So yeah, I will learn from you.
7:50
So yeah, we started these really cool relationship and she agreed
7:54
that she was going to come to La Caya to teach her Master class
7:57
after COVID happened. And during that time I was
8:01
learning more about Chinese tea. She introduced me to work and.
8:06
OK. From Oheka.
8:07
From Oheka, Yeah. OK.
8:09
And that's how. I became also interested in
8:11
matcha and Japanese. Teas.
8:14
OK, wow, interesting story. It's very cool.
8:18
How have you seen like the matcha scene in Mexico evolve
8:22
over the past couple years? Now it's a mess.
8:26
I think it's a mess everywhere, not just in Mexico.
8:29
Yeah, it's a mess everywhere. Yeah, because it it became a
8:35
thing especially for the fitness snobbish people, that they only
8:41
drink matcha because it's going to change their lives somehow.
8:46
I mean, I think matcha is a really good drink that if you're
8:49
very consistent and only drink it by itself without adding
8:54
anything, it can give you health benefits.
8:57
But they haven't been completely proven right.
9:00
So I think the main reason why you should drink matcha is not
9:03
because it's going to prevent you from having cancer.
9:06
Like that has. Not been proven.
9:08
So right now there are like four different kind of people that I
9:14
have identified that wanna drink matcha.
9:17
The fitness people that only drink matcha because it's the
9:21
thing to drink now. Like they were drinking
9:23
ashwagandha 2 years ago and now it's like matcha.
9:27
And whenever something new comes along they are gonna switch.
9:31
Maybe then there's a people who are interested in drinking
9:35
matcha because it looks good on social media and they want to be
9:40
part of that trend of making their matcha and commenting
9:46
about how cool it is to drink matcha.
9:49
Then three, the ones that don't really care about how it tastes.
9:53
As long as it's sweet, they will like it.
9:57
OK. And I think the third group is
10:00
the most abundant group of all because they just buy whatever
10:06
green powder available, the cheapest, the better.
10:10
And the fourth group, which is the connoisseur or the more
10:14
curious matcha drinkers, which I think will help the other three,
10:19
because the fourth group is the one that will continue drinking
10:24
matcha and will continue learning more about matcha in
10:28
the real, in the real Japanese way.
10:31
So in my perspective, those are like the four groups that are
10:35
consuming matcha in Mexico. Did these groups exist like five
10:40
years ago or do you think it's like a more recent like
10:44
evolution? I think it's a more recent
10:47
evolution for sure. Before I would say that there
10:50
were only two groups, like the one that drinks matcha in any
10:54
presentation as long as it's sweetened and doesn't taste like
10:57
matcha, and then the fitness group.
11:01
OK, interesting. How much conversion have you
11:04
experienced from the other groups into, you know, the
11:07
corner store group that you described at the end?
11:10
A lot, but it was actually very, very surprising because I wanted
11:14
to achieve the same thing with Tasty and I tried, we even did
11:19
these program, like a subscription program where we
11:23
would give a class with Shunan also.
11:26
And it was very interesting. But people were not buying the
11:31
tea during COVID. We got a larger group.
11:34
There were like 65 people that joined the the subscription and
11:39
it was pretty good during COVID. But then people returned to
11:43
their normal lives and they forgot completely about Chinese
11:46
tea and they're not buying any Chinese tea because during
11:50
COVID, the Chinese tea sales went up for us at least.
11:55
And in September 2021 that things went basically back to
11:58
normal. Hasty Sense went down so bad.
12:03
And it's not happening that with matcha because the connoisseur
12:07
group is wanting to do more more and more and more things with
12:11
matcha and every matcha tasting that we open gets sold out in 2
12:17
days or less. Wow.
12:19
Interesting. That's really interesting
12:21
actually. I guess Kung Fu Cha is very
12:23
different because it's not something you can just order to
12:25
go easily and it's like a bigger commitment time wise because you
12:30
need like 1/2 hour 45 minutes to have a session where matcha is a
12:36
little more adaptive to like coffee culture kind.
12:39
Of and you know what the main thing we love milk in Mexico or
12:45
fake milk, doesn't matter almond milk or cow milk, but we love
12:49
milk. We are culture that whatever you
12:51
give us with milk will thrive. So matcha has the advantage.
12:57
That you can mix it with milk. Yeah.
13:01
So you can either make it for a cappuccino or anything latte,
13:06
and the possibility that matcha or the option that matcha gives
13:11
you of mixing it with milk is just something that Gonfu tea
13:15
cannot give you. That's a that's a great point.
13:19
Never thought about that, but that makes sense.
13:22
What's the consumption percentage between pure matcha
13:26
drinkers and matcha with milk right now based on what you have
13:30
seen? I think it's about the same as a
13:32
specialty coffee store. I was talking to a friend
13:36
because before I work for the Mexican government, I was
13:39
trained as a barista when I was 14 years old.
13:42
So I've met this guy since I was 14.
13:44
Now I'm 37. So I've met him basically most
13:47
of my life. So I was talking to him and he
13:50
was like, I cannot make people drink matcha because he's buying
13:54
matcha also from Uji, the Suji Suji blend from Oyka.
13:59
He was telling me that it's it's the same for espresso drinkers
14:03
because they are one of the best coffee shops in Guadalajara, and
14:08
they sell only two espresso a day.
14:10
Only two. Wow.
14:12
Yeah. And for a specialty coffee,
14:15
that's like, really, if you are selling only two espresso a day,
14:20
nobody else has a chance, right, of making like an espresso sale.
14:25
And for matcha is basically the same thing.
14:28
Everyone wants lattice. And also because we are addicted
14:31
to lemonade, one of the most common ways to drink matcha in
14:35
Mexico is matcha lemonade. Interesting.
14:38
Yeah, Matcha lemonade and matcha latte.
14:41
But pure matcha, I would say that it's less than 1%.
14:46
He's he's he's serving Oicas blend mostly in a latte then
14:51
and. That's what's only lattes.
14:54
Only lattes and lemonade. Lattes and lemonade.
14:56
Interesting. And the lemonade is sweetened
14:58
too. Everything is sweetened.
15:00
The lattes are not sweetened. However, all the fitness group
15:06
that says that it's very fit always ask for their matcha
15:10
lattes with monk fruit, which I think is one of the most
15:13
horrific things that you can do to matcha have monk fruit
15:17
because it's not pure monk fruit.
15:18
If you were going to add pure monk fruit, I would be fine with
15:21
it. But every monk fruit that you
15:23
can buy that you can find in the market has your each with toll,
15:27
which in my opinion is one of the worst inventions that we've
15:31
made as humanity. So you add your very expensive
15:35
matcha with monk fruit and then agave 0 because obviously we are
15:40
in the land of tequila, so we make every product that can be
15:46
derived from agave. So we obviously make agave 0 and
15:50
it's one of the most popular sweeteners in Guadalajara.
15:53
So they add monk fruit with eritreal agave 0 and the very
15:59
expensive matcha and milk. Is this like half of the sales
16:03
of like specialty coffee places or is it what would you say the
16:07
balance is as it compared to coffee?
16:10
Yeah, this guy Pedro was reading me his sales and it was about
16:16
60% now, much to drink even more.
16:19
More than coffee. Wow.
16:21
Wow. That's crazy.
16:22
Wow. Interesting.
16:23
No. Wonder we have a shortage,
16:25
right? Yeah.
16:26
And I was just sitting there because sometimes I just want to
16:30
experience my customers. Sales by.
16:35
Like see what they're doing with the matcha.
16:38
And. I would just be see that they're
16:40
at the counter and people will just come in one after another
16:43
and after another. Like much, a lot.
16:45
They much, a lot, They much, a lot.
16:46
They obviously with their variation, like much a lot.
16:49
They with almond milk, with agave syrup with Mumford.
16:52
They're like sure with their coffee, with their coffee, just
16:58
coffee and milk. It just give me a nice latte and
17:01
then they don't add I got a syrup or it's just yeah, lucky.
17:06
So I don't know why Macha is being treated that way.
17:11
Interesting. Very weird phenomenon, but I
17:13
guess it's encouraging. I don't know people like it, but
17:16
their tastes might evolve too, especially as more optionality
17:19
enters the markets. Maybe new origins, that type of
17:23
thing. Yeah.
17:24
So you you were in Japan recently, I believe, part of the
17:27
tour with Mark. So what was your experience like
17:30
in Japan meeting tea farmers and kind of interacting with that
17:34
whole group? It was very good.
17:36
I really liked going with Mark because I basically begged Mark
17:40
to organize a trip I started. You're the impetus.
17:45
I started bouldering came last April, So in April 2024, as soon
17:54
as I could travel because I was pregnant at the time.
17:57
And as soon as my doctor cleared me, like after the whatever 7th
18:01
week or whatever, I went to Oika.
18:03
I like Mark. We need to organize this tea
18:06
trip to Japan, to Oregon because I want to know all of your
18:09
farmers and you're like, yes, let's do that.
18:14
So he got very excited and I was very impressed that all the
18:19
farmers really respect Mark and they allowed us to harvest some
18:25
of their most precious cultivars.
18:27
For example, we went with Yamasaki San that in my opinion,
18:30
he has one of the best Uji hikaris that I've tried.
18:33
And he allowed us to harvest the Asahi cultivar for two hours,
18:40
which is unprecedented because usually farmers just treat you
18:44
as a tourist and they let you play with whatever leftovers
18:47
they have. But the farmers in Japan,
18:50
because they respect Mark, they even treat us like that.
18:53
They really treat us like part of their community and allowed
18:58
us to harvest the leaves, their most precious leaves.
19:02
So that was very, very different from what I've experienced both
19:06
in Taiwan and in China because I've always been treated as a
19:10
tourist, like, oh, yeah, you want to play with the tea
19:13
leaves, go play with the tea leaves.
19:15
And, you know, just that very internal experience.
19:18
But yeah, I was, it was very interesting to see that process
19:20
because also they allowed us to go into their factories and all
19:25
the confidential information that usually nobody wants to
19:28
share with a group of foreigners.
19:30
They were just very kind to allow us into their facilities
19:34
and really show us around. So it was very, very fulfilling
19:38
for me. What were some of the biggest,
19:41
like, takeaways from like direct learnings?
19:44
I'll say like because we can all learn about things in theory,
19:47
but then when you go see it, smell it, touch it, hear it,
19:49
talk to people, it becomes real in a different way.
19:54
Kind of seen how the because it was mid season which was very
19:59
interesting to see how old the machines were operating because
20:04
I've never seen how the streaming process worked.
20:10
I've seen it in videos, but it's very different to see it in real
20:14
life, so I was very impressed by seeing how the processing of
20:21
matcha really worked. They allowed us to be there when
20:25
they were making their harvest, so I think that was one of the
20:29
main takeaways, just being able to experience the full harvest
20:33
process and making attention. Are you planning to source tea
20:37
yourself in the future or have you tried?
20:39
We are, we are sourcing because I mean, Oykas tea is amazing.
20:44
But Mexico is not the US and cannot afford to pay the prices
20:51
that Mark has. And some customers will continue
20:54
buying and I think we will continue growing on that sector.
20:58
But the market as a whole wants good matcha, but they cannot
21:04
afford those prices. So we are now my husband and me,
21:08
who's my partner. And he had been a silent partner
21:11
for the longest time, but he has now decided to become involved
21:15
in the business. He's very good at languages.
21:17
He's American, but he's Spanish is perfect.
21:20
Like you cannot hear an accent on his Spanish.
21:23
So he's speaking all Japanese very quickly, which I'm very
21:26
jealous of. Wow.
21:28
That's cool. Yeah.
21:30
And we have the same teacher and he has been helping us to find
21:35
new suppliers and he helped us find find sorry, Furuichi son in
21:40
Kagoshima. We went to visit him also when
21:43
we were traveling to Japan. So we went to his factory and we
21:47
went to the tea plantations. We saw him blending the
21:50
different pinch a cultivars. So it was very exciting as well.
21:54
That's a more affordable, it's not affordable like affordable,
21:59
affordable, affordable, but more affordable than Oyka.
22:02
So for some of our customers that want to have quality in
22:05
their matcha, I think it's a good option.
22:08
How was your experience in Kagoshima versus?
22:11
Others great. I wanted to rent a car because I
22:16
usually rent a car wherever I go.
22:19
I thought that it was going to be the same as driving in
22:23
Taiwan, which I really liked, but my driver's license, because
22:27
you're going to really drive in Japan with your US driver's
22:30
license or your Mexican driver's license.
22:32
So I applied for another driver's license and allow me to
22:36
drive in Japan, and it didn't arrive on time, so I couldn't
22:39
drive. Yeah.
22:40
So we had to just hire a driver. And I didn't realize how big of
22:45
a prefecture Kagoshima was. So we spent a lot of time in the
22:50
car just driving around and seeing the different tea
22:54
plantations. We went to the top of mouth on
22:56
Odaka, which it's possibly one of the most beautiful sceneries
23:01
I've experienced in that area. But yeah, Kagoshima's natural
23:06
beauty is amazing. And also the onsense that we had
23:09
the opportunity to go to some onsense was great.
23:12
And the food, yeah, yeah. So Kagoshima was a great
23:15
perfection, at least for me too. What was sourcing tea like in
23:19
Kagoshima? Yeah, especially compared to
23:21
like Ujiyame and like the more traditional places you visited.
23:26
It was remote because from one place to another it'll be like
23:30
an hour and a half drive. So it was just very.
23:35
Very remote to be travelling from one place to another
23:39
because for which he's like, Oh yeah, let's go to the factory
23:42
and like, yeah, let's go to the factory.
23:45
So we were at his main shop and we started driving and like,
23:48
where is the factory? Is it still in Kagoshima?
23:51
And yeah, we drove like for an hour and a half and yeah, I was
23:56
like, wow, I don't know, just all the automatic harvesters
24:03
like those red giant. Yeah, it.
24:07
Was like tractor things. Yeah, just with one person and
24:10
that giant tractor just going through the tea plantations was
24:13
also very cool because it was also mid season, so it was
24:18
perfect to travel during that time in May where all the
24:21
harvesting was happening. And they were also explaining to
24:26
us, at least in Furuichi Sans factory, that before 2023 main
24:32
product that they were making was sencha and now they are
24:35
switching. Yeah, they were.
24:38
They were switching to tencha because the demand is just so
24:41
high. And the problem now is not that
24:44
much that they cannot produce enough tensha because they have
24:48
the capacity just to switch from tensha to tensha, but it's that
24:52
they don't have enough meals, so it's very slow to receive.
24:57
We've heard that's a big problem too in a lot of other areas.
25:00
It's a Milling is a pretty big bottleneck for a lot of people.
25:04
Which is good news for us. Yeah.
25:07
So it's one of the things we're working on is like a countertop
25:10
matcha mill. Yeah, yeah.
25:11
Hopefully it will come soon. It's coming.
25:14
It's coming, it's coming. Yeah, because most buffets where
25:17
we sell much, I would definitely switch to Henshaw and because
25:22
yeah, many places in Mexico, not many places with like 12 places
25:26
so far, but the meal that Mark sells, the one that Yoshita.
25:31
The hand milk, yeah. And grinder.
25:33
But you cannot. Really do anything with that on
25:36
your business it was. Impossible.
25:38
Unless your arm is strong enough so you can keep turning and
25:42
turning and turning in a very steady way, there is no way that
25:46
you will be able to make a matcha from that.
25:49
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
25:50
It's yeah, it's too, it's too slow and it's just, it's, it's a
25:54
good demo, but beyond, beyond the demo, it's not that
25:59
practical. But we've that we spent the last
26:00
two years basically studying the physics of the commercial Ishi
26:04
Yusu. And we're like, OK, how do we
26:06
shrink this? So we're using like decently
26:10
sized mill stones, like 11 centimeter diameter, but we held
26:14
them up to heat sinks because like marks, like commercial mill
26:18
stones, there's so much granite that kind of acts as a natural
26:21
heat sink so it doesn't build up heat and, you know, burn the
26:24
matcha. So we're kind of doing that, but
26:27
using technology to remove the heat and a bunch of other.
26:30
Things. So when are they coming?
26:33
We're launching a beta program in September and then we'll
26:36
deliver the first batch early next year.
26:39
So the the podcast is because like there's a lot of waiting
26:42
and product development. So we're like, oh, we should
26:44
like share some macho knowledge and we can learn from people
26:46
like you. It's.
26:48
Going to be the particle size. Oh, we already analyzed it.
26:51
So the mean particle size is. Actually, we referenced it
26:54
against two issues with benchmarks.
26:56
We're actually below the particle size, so 1 is one
27:01
sample we sent is like 4.9 microns on average.
27:04
Wow 4.9. Yeah.
27:05
And another one was about 5, yeah.
27:08
Wow. And then we also measured the
27:10
shape of the particles and we reached a very similar level of
27:16
how jagged the shapes are. Suddenly like broken then
27:20
around. Exactly.
27:21
Yeah, exactly. So.
27:22
And we're about parody with Ishiusu.
27:25
So it's we're, we're super. Happy.
27:29
We are well, I guess the only shortcoming compared to like
27:33
very high quality traditional ishi used to matcha is that we
27:37
have a little bit of higher portion of more coarser
27:41
particles. So the last SIP experiences can
27:44
still feel a little bit graininess.
27:46
Like what you would feel in the ball mill?
27:48
Yeah, exactly. And actually we think that the
27:51
ball milled matcha, we're a little bit better than a ball
27:54
milled matcha and we're about as good as an average quality Ishi
27:58
Usu, especially these days where it feels like they're running
28:02
them very fast. Like sometimes you can.
28:06
Yeah, yeah, we're definitely not at the quality of like, you
28:08
know, Maruku Koja Mayan's highest end product.
28:11
It's like silky to the last drop, but we haven't reached
28:14
that yet. But we're, we're, we're pretty
28:16
competitive, we think. Great.
28:18
Yeah. Ah, and if you want Mata gossip
28:22
2 weeks ago, you want Mata gossip or not about what's
28:27
happening in the scene in Mexico because.
28:31
Right now it's like the gold. Rush, everyone is selling
28:33
matcha, everyone, right? So two weeks ago this guy comes
28:38
and he's like, I'm selling the best matcha from Uji at $45.00 a
28:43
kilogram. I'm like, no, this cannot be uji
28:46
Mata. And also like the label says,
28:49
uji Mata and everything, right? So he gives us the uji Mata.
28:53
And as soon as we do the sampling, see, can you guess
28:58
what this orange spot is? Can you see it?
29:01
Yeah, like a hint of orange color in the center.
29:05
See. It too weird.
29:07
OK. So what do you think it is?
29:10
Is this like powdered with a bunch of chlorophyll or
29:13
something? Or is it like oxidized oxidized?
29:17
Too. That's your last guess.
29:19
Yeah, it's the best. What is that?
29:21
Coloring. Food coloring.
29:24
Food coloring food. Coloring, yeah.
29:26
So the way that food coloring works or green coloring works is
29:30
that it's orange and when it touches water it becomes green.
29:34
It's adulterated. They literally are putting food
29:37
coloring. It's not even like adding
29:39
chlorophyll, it's adding food coloring.
29:41
Yeah, because with chlorophyll you don't have to declare it,
29:45
because tea has chlorophyll. This is worth buying.
29:48
This is my thought process, right?
29:50
If this was a work like a Chinese matcha, Chinese really
29:54
know how to do very good imitations.
29:57
So it's not a Chinese matcha because it will be very well
30:00
done that you will not be able to see the added product.
30:05
It's not Japanese because Japanese would declare that it
30:09
has green color added. So this is something that a
30:15
salesperson in Mexico decided to.
30:17
Add. This is my guess.
30:19
This is my They saw that it was not selling because it was not
30:26
as green as other matches, so they just added the coloring
30:31
without really understanding how to add food coloring and it was
30:35
just too much coloring because that amount of coloring is above
30:39
what the Mexican norm. Allows you to add.
30:44
Wow. Because I took it to my quality
30:47
control lab, and as soon as I show them to them, they're like,
30:50
that has too much food coloring or like food coloring, like,
30:53
yeah. And as soon as we added that to
30:56
water, it was just like intensely green.
31:00
Wow, that's very disturbing. Yeah.
31:03
So in like bad news of what's happening with matcha, like
31:06
everyone is selling uji matcha for very low prices.
31:09
And obviously the only way you can do that and convince the
31:12
consumers that it's real uji matcha, it's like if you add
31:16
food coloring. Wow.
31:17
That's crazy. The new low we we heard some
31:20
people like milling goat like cheap go koro or sencha and
31:24
labeling it as matcha chlorophyll.
31:27
But this is a new level. And in top of that, they still
31:30
call it ceremonial matcha. Wow yeah that is crazy at $45.00
31:36
a kilo. Like what base material are they
31:39
buying? I have no idea also because
31:43
obviously my video, because I made it into a video because I
31:46
was very upset because it's one of the most recognized companies
31:50
in Mexico. So I was very upset that they're
31:52
doing this and that they are fooling consumers.
31:54
So I made a video not saying their name because that would be
32:00
crass. And if I would want to report
32:02
them, I would go directly to the authorities.
32:04
I'm still considering doing that because it's a fraud, right?
32:07
Like it's food. Fraud.
32:09
So the video went viral and they called me and.
32:12
They're like, why are you? Doing this video and like why
32:15
are you giving me samples with food coloring?
32:17
If you are not giving me samples with food coloring, there will
32:20
be no reason for me to denounce you this way.
32:23
I'm not even saying that it's you.
32:25
Like nobody will even know that it's you, only that consumers
32:28
should be aware that there's someone out there giving a bunch
32:32
a bunch of samples fooling people.
32:35
That's interesting because I, I used to do a lot of product
32:37
development in, in Mexico with Mexican companies mostly in like
32:43
the, both the savory and the sweet space.
32:45
And one thing I remember is that the regulations in Mexico around
32:50
food and food labeling are super strict.
32:53
And actually they're a lot more strict than in the US.
32:55
Like, like, it feels like they would get fined or like, really
32:59
get in a lot of trouble by the Mexican government for doing
33:02
this level of like food adulteration.
33:05
Yeah, you would hope. And that's why I'm considering
33:07
whether I should report them or not, because it's not declared
33:10
and because nobody really knows enough about matcha to
33:14
understand whether it's real or not.
33:18
And because real matcha is so green, like, it's also done with
33:23
enough knowledge of the market to be able to do that kind of
33:27
fraud. So I think they did it in a very
33:31
clever way. Yeah, but it's really a veering
33:36
consumer perception in the wrong way.
33:39
Yeah. It's not that even safe.
33:42
Like orange? It's new next level.
33:46
Next level. I wouldn't.
33:47
I didn't think I would hear about something like that bad.
33:51
You never stop surprising yourself.
33:54
How? About on the high end in Mexico
33:56
in general, like with other specialty vendors, like do you
34:00
see a lot of people focusing on like if we swing, like if that's
34:04
the worst, what's like the landscape of the best look like
34:07
and how has that evolved? There are now many companies
34:10
that are offering more Mata origins.
34:13
OK which is interesting. Kettle is also around now.
34:17
Oh, I saw that they were working with some chefs and stuff.
34:20
I don't know if they've expanded more.
34:22
OK. Yeah.
34:23
So there's this distributor called Fena Partamento and they
34:27
ventured with them and now they are distributing their matcha
34:31
through them, which I think it's good that.
34:33
There's. More options available.
34:35
Other than that most of the matchas that are available are
34:39
like grade 3 which is fine. They still call it ceremonial
34:43
matcha because we also have it, like we started purchasing
34:47
matcha from Maruyama, which is like one of those very large
34:50
companies in Japan that classifieds A matcha, like grade
34:54
one, grade two, grade three, grade four, grade 5.
34:56
And the grade 3 is good enough for lattice because the intent
35:02
of that matcha since the beginning was to mix it with
35:05
milk. Yeah, if you drink it by itself,
35:08
it's going to taste horrible. I like very very.
35:10
Astringent, but with milk it's good enough and for some
35:14
consumers that want to offer matcha in their coffee shops and
35:19
cannot afford to pay a premium, I think it's a good price,
35:24
especially because matcha prices went up so much.
35:28
Yeah, that makes sense because this this shortage in the prices
35:32
are crazy from everything that we've been hearing.
35:34
It really makes you wonder how these like like especially the
35:38
small businesses that have built their brands on a really high
35:41
end product that's just matcha Like if they don't sell loose
35:44
leaf tea, if they don't sell anything else and it's just this
35:46
high end stuff, like a lot of these people's prices just
35:49
doubled. And it's like it's terrible sort
35:52
of because it's those much of founders that helped create this
35:57
global demand, which has led to this shortage.
36:01
So it's like they were participating in their own
36:04
downfall. Like hopefully they stay in
36:06
business, but for sure it's a really difficult time to just
36:10
focus on that aspect of T. You know, people are suffering
36:14
from their own success. Yeah.
36:17
Which is kind of sad. Yes.
36:20
What's your take in all of this and and have you experienced
36:25
this shortage in any ways price wise or supply wise?
36:29
Oh yeah, we've experienced this shortage since April this year.
36:35
Yeah, we ran out of yame. We are waiting on the yame 2025
36:40
yame because there is no more availability for 2024 and
36:44
customers really like yame. So we are waiting on that.
36:48
We have some Kagoshima and Uji, the Shizuoka.
36:53
It's so popular because it seems to be the tea that the whole
36:56
world wants. It wants like a good enough
36:59
matcha, but not that expensive. So I feel that that matcha is
37:03
the one that is in the worst place, the one that is the most
37:09
demanded. Most in demand, huh?
37:10
Yeah, yeah, because it's ceremonial, although we would
37:14
never call it ceremonial. And we tell, we tell people like
37:18
it's only for lattice, but it's the one that most people can
37:22
afford. So we are competing with the
37:25
whole world to get like a Grade 3 matcha.
37:29
Yeah. Yeah.
37:30
So my take is that for that grade of matcha is still going
37:35
to be a very fierce competition and I don't think it's going to
37:38
get any better. We also have very cheap matcha,
37:43
which is from China, because that's the one that we sell the
37:48
most for customers that want to pay like $30 a kilogram.
37:53
Yeah, yeah. And we disclose fully that
37:58
Matcha is Chinese customers that want to pay $30 a kilogram don't
38:02
really care about origin and they are good as long as their
38:06
Matcha is there. Yeah.
38:09
So I think. Of magave syrup, you know.
38:12
Yes, that tastes great. And monk fruit.
38:14
I think that sector is also going to continue growing and we
38:18
are prepared for that. But I'm very excited about the
38:20
Connoisseur group as well, because that allows us to keep
38:25
developing our specialty matcha program and just keep giving
38:29
people more knowledge about matcha without any restrictions
38:32
on the information. Because I think for the longest
38:34
time matcha information has been so well transmitted in our wrong
38:39
way. Because the whole, not the whole
38:44
world obviously, but the the people who consume matcha feel
38:48
that there's either a ceremonial grade or culinary grade.
38:52
Yep, and culinary grade's been stigmatized.
38:55
Yeah, cleaner grade has been stigmatized and ceremonial grade
38:58
is not understood at all. And it's not even a.
39:01
Thing that's a perfect description.
39:03
Culinary grade is stigmatized, Ceremonial grade is not
39:06
understood. That's like that.
39:08
There's not so. Much confusion because from we
39:12
have a small has more space because we specialize in
39:16
wholesale and in tastings and online sales, but we still have
39:20
a small space where people can come and order their matcha and
39:24
95% of the customers who come when they order matcha like.
39:29
Oh, is it ceremonial grade? Yeah.
39:33
Yeah, well, I mean, they're do what they do what they're told
39:36
to. Like, I mean, that's how it's
39:38
been marketed to everyone. And then now it's just what
39:40
everyone asks for and expects. And it's putting this genie back
39:44
in the bottle is going to be really hard.
39:46
Yeah, really, really hard. It's really unfortunate,
39:50
although you know, I'm very great.
39:51
I think my heart take in general about the shortage is that the
39:54
world should be very grateful that this Chinese matcha exists,
39:57
that you can sell like $30 a kilo.
40:01
Because I if you do the math, I did the math recently and I saw
40:04
that David from Tizumi wrote an article doing math about how
40:07
much good matcha there is in the world in terms of the number of
40:13
people that can drink a matcha every day and for a high end
40:16
matcha. There's depends on how you
40:18
calculate it. There's about Japan produces
40:22
enough high end matcha for about 1 to 2 million people in the
40:25
world to drink good matcha every day like.
40:28
That's really per year. Yeah, per year.
40:31
And that's about how much they can make it.
40:33
It can service about 2,000,001 to 2 million people, depending
40:37
on how you do the math. And like that's not enough.
40:41
No, it's definitely not enough. And like a lot of those matcha
40:45
consumers don't want, need, or care about anything that this
40:49
high end matcha has to offer. Like it without, like the
40:53
Chinese matcha serving the bottom of the market, then this
40:58
industry can't grow and the there's not going to be enough
41:01
of a product for the people who actually want the good product.
41:04
Yeah, that's. Really.
41:05
Important. And as long as you declare it, I
41:08
think there's no problem that you are not fooling consumers
41:12
that you're not purchasing the real thing.
41:15
But since most people don't care, then it's fine.
41:20
Because yeah. It's a Uji Macha from Guizhou.
41:24
Yeah, the only. Thing that that bothers me is
41:26
that they label it as product from Japan and then it's not.
41:31
That's the only thing that. It's mislabeled.
41:33
Yeah, the laundry is is a thing. Lot of abuse it's.
41:39
Within, between China and Japan, within China, it's, it's a very,
41:47
it's a old industry really. You've seen people doing that
41:50
for a long time, different tea categories.
41:53
And when people, like, sympathize with Japanese tea
41:56
farmers, sometimes you read in the comments section like, it's
41:59
time we need to start growing tea in the US to take pressure
42:02
off the system in Japan. And like, it feels like these
42:05
are the same people that are stigmatizing Chinese matcha.
42:08
And I'm thinking in the back of my head, what if there was a
42:10
country that has produced tea for longer than Japan that
42:13
happens to be really good at making green tea?
42:16
They could also be making matcha to help take pressure off of
42:20
this system. Like it's the stigma of Chinese
42:23
matcha, especially as it gets better and better.
42:26
It's a bit bizarre to me. And I'm waiting for some samples
42:29
from Taiwan that it's Taiwanese matcha.
42:33
I'm going to be trying them these harvests in two weeks.
42:36
I think they're going to come. And I'm very excited about that
42:39
because Taiwanese are also very, very good at making tea.
42:43
So. The regulations are also very
42:45
strict, so I'm very excited to try other origins.
42:49
And I really feel that if the the process of making tencha is
42:53
respected without cutting corners, as Shunan keeps telling
42:57
me, you can have other origins that are not only Japanese that
43:02
can be very good. Because let's say that Guishan
43:05
decides to start making matcha. I think that Guishan, like the
43:09
terroir of Guishan, could be much better than Uji because
43:13
Guishan is one of those theroirs that it's such such a delight.
43:18
Yeah, it's it's very unique, but also, you know that the
43:21
cultivar, one thing that I'm most concerned about is the
43:25
cultivar because you know, like you need a lot of catechin in
43:28
the cultivar for we and Cha. To you don't.
43:32
Think oxidize, you know, and. Think that they could play like
43:36
in some of but some of the parts of Guishan they could shave like
43:40
Uji Hikari or Sami Dori. Or.
43:44
Japanese Cultivars. Yeah, with Japanese cultivar
43:46
probably will be very interesting.
43:48
Yeah, because. Rogue was not a thing 80 years
43:51
ago. It became so popular like during
43:54
the last 80 years that it became a cultivar and now it's one of
43:58
the best cultivars for China. 'S tea.
44:00
So I think, I mean, it depends, right, if China is going to do
44:04
that, but some of the best there are in the world are definitely
44:08
in China. So if they start growing
44:10
Japanese varietals, I think it's going to become even more
44:14
interesting than matcha industry.
44:17
Although there's so much money for We Rock T, in general, it's
44:21
probably more profitable. Just stick with the Yan Tang.
44:25
The domestic market likes it. Who knows, because I don't think
44:30
there's the same interest in GUI teas as there is for matcha.
44:34
So who knows what's going to happen because interest in
44:38
China. Yeah, the domestic sales of you
44:42
know UE tea or even teas in general like who are is
44:45
declining and there's not enough, you know overseas demand
44:52
might be interesting to see like if people starting to find
44:56
opportunities and commercial incentives to produce a higher
45:00
quality tech China in China. Do the Taiwanese tea that you're
45:05
sourcing, do they have Japanese cultivars?
45:08
And where in Taiwan is it? Is it grown?
45:11
Apparently it's near Pinglin. England, OK, that's for North,
45:14
right? Because Pingling specializes
45:17
more in Baojong. Yeah.
45:19
Or. Greener, greener teas.
45:20
And Taiwan was a Japanese colony after all.
45:23
Yep. Yeah, years or something.
45:25
No, they're all close to 100 years, Yeah.
45:28
It was 100 years. Almost it's Oh, that's very
45:32
interesting. Do.
45:33
You know what cultivars they have?
45:35
Is it mostly what cultivars? I don't know.
45:37
I I can reach out to you and tell you as long as I try it and
45:41
see what cultivars they're sending me.
45:43
OK? Yeah.
45:44
Interesting, Cool. Well, that that's, that's
45:48
interesting. Actually haven't heard about I,
45:49
I, I knew that Taiwan produced some really low end matcha or
45:55
like maybe like cosmetics or something.
45:57
No. Boba because Taiwan is obsessed
46:00
with boba. Yeah, Boba.
46:02
Very cool though, we love Taiwanese.
46:04
Tea. Yeah, Taiwanese tea is great.
46:06
We went on a trip there as students in 20.
46:10
Wow. What year was it 2015 in 2015?
46:12
Yeah, 2015 Where did you go to school?
46:14
A Penn State. Wow.
46:17
Yeah. And we had a tea program there
46:19
and part of it we did exchanges. So we would bring in people from
46:22
abroad, and typically we brought people in from Taiwan to present
46:27
and then they would always invite us and we could get money
46:29
from the university to sponsor our ticket.
46:32
So we would do a bit in exchange, we would bring them
46:35
and then we'd send about four or five people.
46:39
That's so cool that you're you are so.
46:41
Involved with tea? Oh, yeah, yeah.
46:44
We have to like, raise the money.
46:46
They they have this big pool of money that you can like pitch
46:50
and say, hey, it's culturally enriching.
46:53
These students are going to come back and teach other students
46:55
about tea. So we had to, like, set up a
46:56
whole pitch, but they were really nice.
46:59
They took us. We went to Taipei, we went down
47:02
to Dong Ding in Nan Tao County, visited some Dong Ding producers
47:06
and the Libu Tea Association tasted a bunch of stuff.
47:09
And there's a, it was a perfect, like, first origin trip for tea
47:13
at the beginning of our year. Yeah, yeah.
47:16
So the university was quite supportive at the time.
47:19
They even issued us academic credit for that's.
47:22
Pretty nice. So it was.
47:26
That was pretty awesome. 10 years ago now.
47:30
Yeah. So last question, what's the
47:32
future plan for Soita as we you know, keep growing the business
47:37
and also the consumers are keep growing in Mexico?
47:41
Well, one of my plans is to be even more transparent with all
47:46
the information about Matcha and try to reduce the confusion in
47:51
consumers. That's one of the reasons why I
47:53
make a lot of videos, so people can have both, like the
47:58
information that they can get without being fully confirmed
48:03
and then information that they can trust.
48:05
So even if they don't become our customers, they can purchase the
48:10
product that best suits them. Just knowing what's out there.
48:14
So just being very transparent and giving all their producers
48:18
their place. So we can have that respect for
48:22
all the producers and all the matcha tradition that has been
48:25
around for more than 800 years. So just keeping that tradition
48:30
alive, obviously adjusting it to the Mexican culture and instead
48:35
of doing like a cultural appropriation, doing more of a
48:39
cultural appreciation because the line is very thin.
48:43
And yeah, I would keep fighting not to cross it and just do the
48:49
cultural appreciation part. Yeah, intentions matters the
48:53
most. I.
48:53
Feel. Yeah, yeah, intention matters.
48:55
Yeah, that's great. I think that's where that line
48:57
is typically. Yeah, it's all about intention.
49:02
Yeah, all about intention. But it's awesome to hear and
49:05
really interesting like T journey of of your company and
49:08
your story from Tucson to Kongfucha to Matcha.
49:12
It's this was really interesting.
49:14
You don't hear that very often when we interview other Matcha
49:17
founders. It was very fresh.
49:20
Also, because I was very young and it's very different to start
49:24
that company when you are in your mid 30s because now looking
49:29
back as my early 20s, because I was 22, I would be like I would
49:35
never do that. I had no idea how.
49:38
Like anything. But when you're like 20, like at
49:41
least for me, I didn't really think much.
49:44
I was just like ready to start the business after working in
49:48
the government. So it's just a different life
49:50
perspective, because the more you know, also for me, the more
49:54
afraid you are of messing up. Yeah, I'm misleading the
49:57
consumer. So now that I know more, I feel
50:01
more responsible not to mislead consumers.
50:05
Yeah, for sure. Although it's good that I think
50:08
the same with us. If we knew how hard what we
50:11
attempted to do with this matcha mill was, we might have not have
50:14
started. The naivete is very productive
50:18
sometimes. No, but it's good that you're
50:20
going to have a matcha meal that actually works because there are
50:24
many in the market, right, that are like.
50:27
Yeah, they're yeah, not as performant.
50:30
Yeah, yeah. So we're, yeah, we're excited.
50:34
Yes. Can't wait, I think.
50:35
You sure? Well, thank you so much for
50:37
coming on and thank you to our audience as well.
50:40
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing with a
50:43
friend and we'll see you in the next one.
50:44
Thanks. Thank you.
50:46
Thanks. Bye, nice to meet you.