Latest / The Permission Slip / S2 | E15 Marisa Skolky
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- S2 • E15 Skolky === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt Kosterman, and I'm back with another episode of "The Permission Slip." Today, I am with Marissa Skolky, who is coming to us from the Atlanta, Georgia and surrounding area. Hi, Marissa. Thanks for being here. Marisa Skolky: Great to be here Matt Kosterman: I'm glad we finally connected. Matt Kosterman: It sounds like we have a lot in common from our little brief chat. Um, so Marissa is... Uh, uh, wears many masks. I won't say she is. She is a beautiful human, but she wears many masks. Among them, uh, she's a transformational doula and psychedelic guide. She's currently studying to be a registered somatic movement therapist, and in the-- What's the, what's the one we just did? Matt Kosterman: The Mayan? The, the, uh, the galactic? Marisa Skolky: a white galactic wizard in the Mayan Tzolkin calendar. Matt Kosterman: In, yeah, so a, a white galactic wizard. And I found out that one of my, I'm a yellow something Marisa Skolky: Yellow human or Matt Kosterman: I'm a yellow, a yellow resonant human. So take that, all you people. I'm a yellow resonant human. There's a new one for me. Marisa Skolky: you Matt Kosterman: I-- Marisa Skolky: either. Matt Kosterman: But I can't be defined. But I do have a new rabbit hole to go down, so I'm sure that we'll-- I'll do that. Matt Kosterman: Anyway, Marissa and I are here today to talk about more healing stuff and all the crazy, seemingly crazy ways it is that we can heal our bodies, uh, in this 3D. Um, so Marissa, how'd you get into this stuff? How did it, how did it start? You gave me a little bit of background on your... You don't have to, like, go, you know, super deep, but, you know, uh, we've all gone through something in these, in these bodies. Matt Kosterman: What, what, what got you here? Marisa Skolky: Well, I have always been kind of an expressive arts person. I would say I was kind of born that way, just feeling intensely. I've always been involved in music and arts and dance and musical theater. I grew up in New Jersey and went to a lot of Broadway shows. Matt Kosterman: Nice Marisa Skolky: over the years, I developed an eating disorder, bulimia, and I struggled with that for 16 years. Marisa Skolky: And in my path towards trying to heal my body and, um, you know, try to heal this energy of proving myself and feeling like I'm enough, uh, or I've done enough, uh, I came to many different modalities that allowed me to channel the depth of my emotions through art and through movement and learn how to deeply connect with my body. Marisa Skolky: And through my journey of trying many, many different types of psychedelics, Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: landed that iboga and ibogaine were the most effective for helping me get into a place of, I guess, in IFS terms, we call it self-energy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: of groundedness and connectedness and fearlessness and openness, and I had never felt what peace had felt like before my ibogaine flood. so even though I had all this awareness and all this consciousness, and I had all these different tools and reiki and hypnotherapy and somatic work and IFS, it wasn't until I did my ibogaine flood that those modalities could actually land. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, and yeah, and so for the-- I'll just unpack it a little bit. So ibogaine and iboga. Iboga's a, a, a root that's, uh, indigenous to Gabon, Africa. Uh, a very powerful, uh, medicine, uh, with a long, long lineage. And, uh, IFS is internal family systems, which is a way of, uh, one way of looking at our sort of, what would you say, like our internal dialogue. Matt Kosterman: We have all these different parts, all the, all the parts. This guy over here is screaming, and this woman... Yeah, all kinds of... All those voices in your head can be called a IFS. Um, and so you did be-before finding the psychedelic wor- oh, and where, where in New Jersey, by the way, where were you a theater geek? Marisa Skolky: which is Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Wh- Marisa Skolky: of Matt Kosterman: do I- Marisa Skolky: a lot of, you know, you're either a doctor or a lawyer or some, you know, there's still a lot of like pressure to, to be somebody and to prove yourself. And I think that dynamic not only exacerbated my high achieving type A personality, but you know, it, it definitely served me in some ways, but it, it really, um, caused me to really implode in other ways and self-destruct in other ways. Marisa Skolky: And, you know, if I'm not creating, um, then my mind goes into some other places so that are not as helpful. So I've, over the years, I've really learned how to hone my psychic gifts and my f- my ability to channel and feel other people's energies and Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: what's going on and not be really scared to be with myself and that journey of learning how to be with myself and loving and accepting all parts of myself, the intensity parts and the parts that don't feel like they're enough have really changed the way that I perceive the world and, uh, helped me show up with a lot of capacity to hold space for others. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Beautiful. Yeah, it's so interesting. I was-- I, I just took a long road trip, and I was doing a lot of hiking out west, and, uh, I passed some people one day, and this little voice of a little younger version of me was concerned about a-something that I was wearing. Like, I don't know, like I had dark socks on or something, which was always w-w-growing up with, with-- growing up, that was taboo. Matt Kosterman: Like wherever-- At some point in my life, you know, you couldn't wear dark socks with shorts, and I had like, you know, boots on. And 'cause we talk about this loving ourself kind of thing, and it-- and I, I was-- and I-- it's sort of really almost the first time I went, "Oh, yeah, I, I see you there. It's okay. Th-they're not looking at your socks." Matt Kosterman: You know, I just had this, like, conversation with myself. It, it, it's fine, and that energy just sort of receded, and it wasn't, wasn't there Marisa Skolky: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Um, and I think that's ultimately sort of the work. But man, it, it can take a lot to get there. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, I kind of think of it as like a dial. You know, we can dial up and dial down and create space within ourselves and, and, and through the art to life process of making your life your art, of living your life as ceremony, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: and shamanic in some ways and, and also ritualistic, like working with the elements, working with the natural rhythms of nature, of learning how to understand your body, especially as a woman and, like, different cycles that we go through each month. Marisa Skolky: You know, really connecting with that, um, has deeply informed my ability to show up in ways that allow for balance and grace and self-forgiveness, um, and courage Matt Kosterman: 嗯哼，嗯哼，嗯哼，嗯哼。 It Marisa Skolky: a means towards alchemizing and transmuting whatever it is that's showing up as, like, almost like a palette on which we can make something really beautiful. Marisa Skolky: You know, what are... what gifts are we harvesting from all the things that we've gone through? You know, what are we gonna create with that? And nothing's good or bad, it just is, and we just have, like, different colored paints in which we can a piece of art. And I make art with my movements, and I make art with, know, my voice, and I make songs for your soul. Marisa Skolky: And I... And it just, you know, the way I channel is through music. So my guides come in, and they download a song, and then it just comes out and it's catchy. It's, it's like an earworm, and you can't get it out of your head. And days later, my friends are like, "Goddamn, I still got that song in my head." I'm like, "Yes, it worked." Matt Kosterman: worked. Yeah. Oh, beautiful. That's amazing. Then, and, and you did, uh, you did a stint in the corporate world, did you say? Yeah Marisa Skolky: an assistant vice president of an insurance brokerage for over a decade, Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow Marisa Skolky: time I was making insurance music videos, and I was writing raps to underwriters, and bringing my crystal singing bowls to business meetings. And I was the one that was the hippie that was out in the back of the office building with her bare feet dancing in the grass on my lunch hour. Matt Kosterman: There's Marissa again, going at, going at it. Marisa Skolky: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh Marisa Skolky: come into my office when they needed a break, and I would, like, tuning fork them and, you know, give them some essential oils and, you know, guide them through a meditation. And that worked for a while because I was... my boss was amazing. I would have never left that job ever if it weren't for the fact that I wanted to be more in alignment with what I actually am here to do, which is, of course, being a, a medicine woman. But, um, I was still a medicine woman there, too, and I was just doing it in a different way, uh, in a way that was ma- more maybe palatable. But Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: they weren't as open to alternative methods of healing and wellness, and I was always begging, like, HR to let me put on sound baths for the office, and Matt Kosterman: Ja, ja Marisa Skolky: I would just get the, "Yeah, Matt Kosterman: Well, Marisa Skolky: and they wouldn't ever do it. Marisa Skolky: And I was like, "Man, you know, Matt Kosterman: so, so you had, Marisa Skolky: here." Matt Kosterman: so you had already been through a large part of your healing before you took that job, or was it in the midst of that that it unfolded? Marisa Skolky: that job ac- exacerbated the bulimia 'cause I would go on business trips and I would like, you know, I could order as much food as I wanted and binge and purge it and, you Matt Kosterman: Okay. Marisa Skolky: not... You know what Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: And I was by myself a lot traveling. I traveled all over the country taking people out for lunches and dinners while I was bulimic, and Matt Kosterman: Mm. Marisa Skolky: that was very hard. Marisa Skolky: And then there was a, a lot of stress. I mean, I handled a million-dollar book of business. Um, I had, like, as- assistants under me. Like, I, I was very successful by all outside means. I was incredibly successful, making, like, the most money I'd ever made in my life, Matt Kosterman: Ja Marisa Skolky: I was the most out of alignment because I was just really stressed out and not able to really... Marisa Skolky: I- the, the conversations weren't as deep as I really would, would like them to be, and it was like, "Oh, I'm living the dream," and, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: Are you really? Are you really living the dream? Are you really in alignment? For some people, maybe, but I would rather talk about, you know, what makes you wake up in the morning than, um, whether or not Joe hit a, a hole in one on his golf game. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Or the, or, or, or the sport, or Marisa Skolky: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: in the, in the Bears game or whatever, in the... Marisa Skolky: not... I'm Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Marisa Skolky: It ma- even just thinking about it makes me wanna barf. Just Matt Kosterman: Well, that makes sense, given the bulimia. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, exactly Matt Kosterman: And, and so you had, you had-- you were doing work with, with medicines at this-- while you were working or were you, you were, yeah, on the side? Marisa Skolky: with medicine since 2009. I've been professionally trip sitting and working with the medicines and, like, with clients since 2015. Matt Kosterman: OK Marisa Skolky: and my, my background has been ... I, I studied in Costa Rica with two Shipibo-trained shamans, Pancho and Lydia. Pancho unfortunately just passed away recently. Matt Kosterman: Oh, I'm sorry Marisa Skolky: yeah, it was, it was ... I mean, he was a wonderful, wonderful person. And then I also studied in Mexico with a Lakota elder named Grandma Shirley, and then I'm also connected to, um, Bwiti-trained medicine people in, um, in Mexico and also in Canada that I per- get mentorship from. So Matt Kosterman: OK Marisa Skolky: also a part of an association of entheogenic practitioners, a, a board basically of psychedelic practitioners where, you know, we're doing this work with integrity and with ethics and morals. Marisa Skolky: And so having mentorship and guidance and, you know, both in more of a therapeutic setting and also more of an indigenous setting, I like to have, you know, aspects from all different types of places so that I can create a meaningful, integrative experience for someone Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And the Bwiti for, is the Gabon. That's the B- that's Marisa Skolky: Yes, Booity. Matt Kosterman: Iboga. The Bwiti, uh, yeah. Marisa Skolky: to dance too, which is why, you Matt Kosterman: Oh, do they... I- Marisa Skolky: Yeah, they love to dance Matt Kosterman: I was, I was in the ecstatic mysticism program, um, and I, I ended up, it wasn't aligned for me. It was a great program, just wasn't, wasn't my thing. But I was very looking forward to going to Gabon and, and sitting with the Bwiti 'cause that's the capstone trip. Marisa Skolky: Yes Matt Kosterman: yeah, so I, I love this that you have... I, I'm, I love this 'cause I'm similar. I gotta have my hands in a lot of different pots and get a lot of different influence. I know there's, there's also that path of like the purist of, you know, you just do the Bwiti path or you just do the Shipibo path or whatever it is, but I love this. Matt Kosterman: And, and so how are all those things informing, um, how you show up and, and, and hold space? And how are you, you... We talked briefly, you're doing mostly one-on-one work these days with people with medicine Marisa Skolky: Yeah, and Matt Kosterman: and Marisa Skolky: put on, like, retreats and workshops and group classes and, and I also have a microdosing program that I have, know, people show up every other week on Mondays for our Zoom call. So there's like a whole community that I have created over the years of people that are either m- in my microdosing program, or that have worked with me one-on-one, or maybe have sat in a couples session with me. I've also taken some of the training that I got in ISDA into my couples work, where we're doing a lot of, um, sensual touch and, and ex- and authentic relating games, and Matt Kosterman: んうん、うんうん。 Call Marisa Skolky: almost like a... What is it? Hakot- um, heck, hekit, Matt Kosterman: me? Marisa Skolky: hak... Matt Kosterman: Oh Marisa Skolky: Nah, not hakomi, where like it's like the sacred clown. Matt Kosterman: Oh, I don't know the secret. Not Hecate, that's the... Marisa Skolky: No. It's like hayoka? I think it's Matt Kosterman: Could be. Marisa Skolky: Something like that. Anyway, it's like the sacred clown, and, uh, I bring that energy, that, that lightheartedness to the work that I do. And yes, I do work with a lot of individuals, 'cause I do appreciate intimacy and depth, um, but I also work in groups, and I enjoy the group dynamic of the collective supporting each other. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, I was on a show yesterday and we were talking about, about that. I- it was my... I'd done a lot of work with the medicine and, uh, um, solo with different medicines for many years until I sat in a group with 15 people and we, Marisa Skolky: Угу Matt Kosterman: and ketamine one night and then, and then mush- psilocybin mushrooms the next night, and it was, yeah, it was wow. Matt Kosterman: It was so expansive. Um, I mean, I had done group work like Landmark and some other, Marisa Skolky: Oh yeah, I know Landmark. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I'd done Landmark. I had been to The Meadows and, and done two, two different weeks at The Meadows in group. Um, but when you mix it with the, the medicines, um, it- it's, it's super expansive and, Marisa Skolky: the Matt Kosterman: and Marisa Skolky: you Matt Kosterman: the group field Marisa Skolky: it, it energizes and multiplies Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And you get the intentions and, yeah Marisa Skolky: asked about like, m- you know, how this work is, comes into, comes into play and how I show up Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: very intentional, so there's always a beginning, middle, and end to the work that I do with people. Marisa Skolky: There's like a structure that Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: safety, that structure usually follows a five-part process of identify, confront, release, change, grow. And in whatever process we're doing, whether that's expressive arts therapy, movement, drawing, painting, dialogue, ritual theater, whether that's taking that with the mushrooms or MDMA and, or using internal family sys- Marisa Skolky: Whatever modalities I'm doing, I'm creating a process that has structure to it and that also has ritual to it, so that might include the elements. Like, maybe we write a letter to our younger selves and then we go out and we, like, burn our limiting beliefs by the fire. Or maybe during somebody's s- uh, psilocybin journey, we are actually planting a seed in an actual, um, planter and wat- and that person's watering that in the days following. So there's always some sort of, um ... Or we create artifacts. Um, this is a, a broom that I made with a client to, like, wipe off the Matt Kosterman: Uh, energetically. Yeah. It's got Marisa Skolky: we might make, we might make artifacts, um, something that they can actually physically hold and, you know, that they, and like a, something that they can re- remind themselves of from their Matt Kosterman: I got, Marisa Skolky: So Matt Kosterman: I got a Toyota, I got Marisa Skolky: experiential, felt sense. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, like a totem, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marisa Skolky: to put it, yes Matt Kosterman: a little totem. I love that. There was like a, for those listening, it was a, what was the little crystal that came out of it as, as the handle? It's a, Marisa Skolky: quartz with Matt Kosterman: like a, Marisa Skolky: beetle and Matt Kosterman: beautiful... Marisa Skolky: ending Matt Kosterman: Yeah, like a beautiful beetle in, in bronze or I don't know, some kind of metal that's really cool, and then, yeah, it turns into a little whisk broom to whisk away the negative energies from wherever they might be. Marisa Skolky: And I like to use it with hap- you know, Hape ceremonies when I'm serving Hape, and then I just sweep, Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Yeah. Marisa Skolky: field. Yep Matt Kosterman: yeah, hape is a, uh, a tobacco product, a very, very fine tobacco that gets blown up the nose. It's, it-- The first time I did it, uh, I sat with it after some bufo and, and it's not my medicine really. And, and the pr- the practitioner said, "Yeah, it usually divides a room." It's-- There's, there's no middle ground with hape. Matt Kosterman: You're either, like, all in or you're all out. I've tried it a couple times. It's super... I'm, I've never been much of a tobacco guy. Never had that. It doesn't turn, doesn't turn the key, doesn't turn the lock for me, so. But I get it. It's very, it, it-- I, I will say that it actually, it moved my jaw in a, in a, in a good way. Matt Kosterman: Like, Marisa Skolky: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: like, like, it released a bunch of tension in the jaw, but it was not pleasant, I'll say that. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, it's, it's like a... I almost feel like it's an energetic, like, slap in the face or something. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. Marisa Skolky: you in the energy of the now, and Matt Kosterman: You are here. You are right here, right now, all, like all of you. It's like, yeah. Uh, yeah, so coming off of the bufo, that was quite, quite a contrast 'cause with that you're everywhere but right here. Marisa Skolky: Yeah. I mean, I definitely have had some really powerful experiences with many different types of medicines really. Um, I've healed a broken leg with ayahuasca. Matt Kosterman: Oh, talk about that. How did we do that? Marisa Skolky: I, uh, broke my tibial plateau, which is right under the kneecap, on a Bird scooter, one of those scooters that you, you Matt Kosterman: Oh, God. Yeah. Mm Marisa Skolky: first time on it, and I was scared, and I tried to stop it with my leg, and I probably should not have. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Marisa Skolky: uh, I didn't realize it was broken at the time, but I got X-rays, and it definitely showed it was fractured. Four weeks later on crutches, I went to Costa Rica, and in my second ayahuasca ceremony ever, uh, I experienced my leg regrowing. It wasn't like my leg was healing. It was like I had a new leg. Matt Kosterman: Oh? Marisa Skolky: I got out of ceremony, I had no pain, and I could move. Marisa Skolky: I could squat. I could jump up and down. And of course everyone's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute." Like, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, right Marisa Skolky: yet." And I was like, "No, I don't think you understand. Like, I know that my leg is healed." Matt Kosterman: It's healed Marisa Skolky: Costa Rica on crutches after four weeks. It takes 12 weeks for bones to heal. And I went back a week later. Marisa Skolky: I got an X-ray, and they could not find my break. And my doctor was like, "Yeah, miracles happen sometimes." Matt Kosterman: They do. They do happen. That's, uh, that's incredible. Yeah Marisa Skolky: that, ayahuasca never wanted to work with me again, and I just had some really, really intense physical pain in my heart every single time I... And I couldn't take it Matt Kosterman: she, Marisa Skolky: She Matt Kosterman: she was done with you Marisa Skolky: you your miracle. Now don't come back." Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah, yeah. Marisa Skolky: like, Matt Kosterman: Mir-- Yeah, like Mi-- like, yeah, Miracle Max in "The Princess Bride," like you get one, right? Marisa Skolky: Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I Marisa Skolky: yeah. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: had that with, I, I had that with MDMA. I, I had frozen shoulder when I went into my ceremony, and I'd had a cortisone shot and was in excruciating pain, uh, for weeks and weeks and weeks beforehand, and I came out of it and the pain was completely gone. Marisa Skolky: Wow. Matt Kosterman: And then, yeah, and then it was, it was the ayahuasca a few months later. I was still stiff, but then the ayahuasca showed me that the pain came from-- and this wasn't until an integration session, but the pain was from being spanked as a child. I was lifted up by my left arm. And when that came out, it was just like, "Okay, yeah, now we're better. Matt Kosterman: Now we're..." You know, it took a couple years to really loosen it up and Pilates and all that, but I mean, literally I went in, I couldn't move my arm without, like, it would knock me to the floor. And when I came out, I was like, "Oh, it's fine. It's fine," 'cause it was, yeah, it was all energetic. Yeah. I mean, yours was at, yours was like a phys- like, I mean, you can argue what's the physical, what's the energy. Matt Kosterman: It's all energy, right? But yours was like actual a, a fracture, so that's fascinating. Marisa Skolky: Yeah. I have had l- had so many healing experiences with these medicines. Matt Kosterman: What was your, what was your first, uh, psychedelic experience? Marisa Skolky: Oh my goodness, this is gonna be a doozy for those listening. So I, uh, one of my first experiences that were m- the most meaningful probably in, this is maybe like my awakening maybe in like 2009, uh, where I had a DMT experience, and I experienced what it felt like to be in my mother's womb. Marisa Skolky: I could feel the heartbeat, and I heard these like sounds of birds chirping, and I just felt so peaceful. And then all of a sudden, I felt this panic, and I felt like I was choking or I couldn't breathe, like I was suffocating. And really, it was me being born, Matt Kosterman: Ja Marisa Skolky: was remembering... I remember how cold I felt, h- the bright lights of the hospital room. Marisa Skolky: I felt sticky. I literally could taste the feeling of copper, like taste of copper in my mouth. I, I was look, remember looking at my hands and seeing how, like this webbing, this like... It was so out of... I couldn't even believe it. And from that point on, it was just like I knew that there had to be so much more than meets the eye literally. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: I didn't believe really in God per se before that. I grew up Jewish, but I, you know, just I really felt like I was very much alone. And in that experience, I was like, "Oh, wow, okay, there's definitely something here that I can't explain that's bigger than me." And, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Which DMT that? Marisa Skolky: was Matt Kosterman: The N-N- NN DMT or 5-MeO? NN Marisa Skolky: And what's interesting is I never, ever had an experience quite, like similarly to the miracle of the ayahuasca with the leg, I never, ever had an experience ever like that ever again Matt Kosterman: That's a pretty, that's a big one to just jump into. Marisa Skolky: I jumped, yeah. Matt Kosterman: DMT, that's like Marisa Skolky: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: kind of right to the, almost right to the top. Did you have a traumatic birth that you knew, or this was, it was just traumatic because birth- Marisa Skolky: but like the actual birthing experience, I re- realized how scary that is for, for a baby to be born in a cold hospital with bright lights and, you know, being like ripped out of their mother's womb and not knowing how to breathe yet for the ... And they're still like Marisa Skolky: And they're feeling like they're drowning. I feel like I was drowning. Matt Kosterman: Wow Marisa Skolky: I remember screaming and my, the, my partner at the time, like he had to put his hands over my mouth 'cause like I was screaming so loud, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. You were gonna pull, pull... Yeah, that's, Marisa Skolky: being born so it was crazy Matt Kosterman: uh... So yeah, I mean, so what-- And, and C-section, they... I mean, it's all traumatic, but I've also... Yeah, I've also read that especially for C-section babies, you don't get the, the natural, normal, the pushing and the birth canal and the things that it, it makes start happening in the body, and Marisa Skolky: Right Matt Kosterman: fascially there's stuff that can be... Matt Kosterman: Uh, so it, it's not surprising to me that your path has been through this somatic expression and this expressive arts and, you know, 'cause, like, m-maybe something didn't get... You know, the switch didn't get flipped on the way, on the way through the, Marisa Skolky: was Matt Kosterman: through the, through the tunnel Marisa Skolky: like, an underdeveloped digestive system Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Marisa Skolky: Which also, you Matt Kosterman: Which also Marisa Skolky: up as a baby too, like the bulimia thing was like, and from a very early, Matt Kosterman: From a very early age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's been your, your cross to bear, as it were Marisa Skolky: It has, and now I get to throw up through sound Matt Kosterman: Energetically. Marisa Skolky: And energetically through music and art and, yeah, I mean, I'm still, like, releasing energy, but I'm doing it in a much healthier way that's empowering rather than self-destructive Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I really loved the stuff in ISTA, uh, the, the t- the temple, International School of the Temple Arts, uh, the emotional release, the, you know, the, uh, the, the, the different ways of silent screaming. And, um, and I, interestingly, I don't know if you've come across this, but I, I, I just went through a deep, uh, 15-day shamanic de-armoring where they talked about, um... Matt Kosterman: And so it's a lot of, it's, it's breath, sound, and movement, erotic energy, vibration. Um, you're breaking off the armor, uh, the energetic armor that you put on as a child. It's based in Reiki and psychology. Um, but they talked about the fact that when people are expressing anger or they're, or crying, um, a lot of times people wanna, wanna, they c- you know, they wanna cry, like, into their chest. Matt Kosterman: They, they wanna like everything, and they, and they cry, and they... And you're not actually, you know, with your head bent down to your chest, you're not actually expressing it out of the body. Marisa Skolky: Yeah Matt Kosterman: It's the energy is cycling back into the body. Um, I don't know if that's been part, you know, if you've seen that with your clients Marisa Skolky: Yes. Yeah, we definitely practice... I mean, there's, like, five channels of awareness, like, that's based in somatic experiencing. Um, but there's also posture. Posture is one of the channels, and helping that person get into a different shape, so to say, of how to, you know, of, of their energy, of what they're feeling is like, what is the shape of your anger, right? Marisa Skolky: What is the shape of your grief, and how can we create a repetition around that that can help you shift into a new shape and a new position? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: when you add breath and sound, it takes it to a whole other level. then from there, like, you're using rhythm and breath and sound to that energy move and shift in ways that, you know, don't feel so Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, they, they had-- We were laying down, so it was like, it was all about, like, opening, opening the shoulders, lifting the chest up, open the shoulders, head back, and just get it, just get it out. Yeah. I think I've... Yeah, I've done probably-- I did three, three separate, two ISTA, the, the whole emotion re- emotional release, and then I was at the, in the ecstatic mysticism program, and we got into it again, and I was like, "Oh, God, really? Matt Kosterman: Like, we're gonna do this again? Like, how many times do I have to..." But there was still more there, shockingly. Marisa Skolky: There's always more. Matt Kosterman: there's always more. Only this time it was i-i... The first two times it was, um, it was solo. Like, we were on a mat by ourselves, and we were, you know, doing the different postures and th- but this time we were with two other people in a group of three, and they were egging you on. Matt Kosterman: So we rotated. Marisa Skolky: Oh Matt Kosterman: it was like, it was like, "Are you sure that-- Is that all of it? Is that all of it?" And then the, the instructors would come around, and then you're like, "Oh, my... Yes, that's all. Oh, no. Oh, no, there's more." Marisa Skolky: Yep. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: find it interesting some, um, oftentimes when we get into the space of, like, the hand scream or when you're releasing your anger, that oftentimes the sadness gets to be released or, you know, there's a lot Matt Kosterman: To- 100% Marisa Skolky: grief underneath that. And you open up your chest, you open up, you know, you get on your hands and knees and wail like our ancestors used to do, and it really does shift, allow Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, because so like, I mean, we're so-- And I've talked about this a lot on the show, but we're so accultured, we're so programmed to hold it in. Marisa Skolky: Yep Matt Kosterman: you know, m- men, we have our, our way of, of being programmed of, you know, uh, don't, don't show... Don't cry, don't whatever. You know, don't show sadness, don't show fear, don't show weakness. Matt Kosterman: And, you know, women aren't, women aren't allowed to be angry. They're not allowed to be powerful. There's, there's a lot of different over- cultural overlays. Marisa Skolky: Sure Matt Kosterman: and so you're-- when you're working with people, these are all your ways of working Marisa Skolky: Oh yeah, we might draw their angry or sad part, and then we move as that part, and then we d- into the body, and we build relationship, and we might write, um, a poem or a story or a prose Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: that part, or maybe we'll make a song for that part. I have songs for every single one of my parts. Matt Kosterman: Oh, beautiful. Marisa Skolky: them. Marisa Skolky: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: the parts Marisa Skolky: All the parts have a song. And Matt Kosterman: s- Marisa Skolky: does help, um, you know, to be able to give attention to the part of yourself without fear that it's gonna take over, and you can do that through music and art, know, of giving that part of yourself that you've been feeling resistance to space to be heard and seen and understood, without, know, fear that it's gonna... Marisa Skolky: Uh, like for a lot of people, they're afraid to tap into their anger because what if they lose control? Matt Kosterman: Lose control Marisa Skolky: people, right? That's a, a common fear. Matt Kosterman: Ja Marisa Skolky: But what if you take that into your art process and you move your arms and your legs and your body in such a way that you are creating s- the staccato fiery energy of, a- outward, of pushing that energy outward and, and using your breath and using sound and allowing that energy to, to dissipate? Marisa Skolky: Or maybe that's like the color red or orange, and you're just like scribbling and, and drawing with both of your hands and creating bilateral stimulation for easing of your nervous system while you're processing your anger. Or maybe your anger has a song that it wants to sing, and maybe it's a rock and roll song, and you Matt Kosterman: Ja, ja, ja Marisa Skolky: are ways that we can work with it. Or, and then the somatic way that you can help yourself, you know, with regulation of it is like twisting the towel and pulling, pressing on the wall. know, like in ISTA, we're taught hand screaming, Matt Kosterman: Hand screaming. Marisa Skolky: pillow thrusting, Matt Kosterman: right. Yep. Ah, wailing, wailing. Yeah Marisa Skolky: of different... Marisa Skolky: There's all sorts of different ways to be with yourself. But also, you know, sometimes you just need to scream and rage and, and scream into a pillow and, and beat some, you know, beat a pumpkin with a stick and, you know, get something... That's why there's rage rooms, because people have... need a safe space in which to process their intensity of what they're feeling, and I like to be a safe space for the intensity of all of it Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. For as a, as a, as a, uh, witness. Marisa Skolky: As a Matt Kosterman: Witness and a space holder and a facilitator. Yeah, there's a, there's a group I, I think that meets in Chicago by the lake once a month, and they just say scream for a minute or five minutes or something. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, that sounds nice Matt Kosterman: I, I, you know, like I wanna just go back 'cause I think, I, and I know this was true for me, is there... Matt Kosterman: Well, first I wasn't even present to how much anger there was there. And then at some point when I got present to it, it was like so much that I-- there was a lot, just the fear of like the it's bottomless. And if I start, I don't know if I can stop. Marisa Skolky: Right? Matt Kosterman: And I, I'm wondering if, if this is something I, I, I know I'm not a, a, a, a, Marisa Skolky: not Matt Kosterman: a complete, complete butterfly on that, you know? Marisa Skolky: that's where we use the terms like titration and pendulation, uh, again, somatic terms that really mean just m- like going into the uncomfortableness and then coming back into a space of safety and coming, and sort of expanding and contracting in your nervous system around how much of the anger you are al- allowing your nervous system to feel at any given time. Um, and, you know, understanding where your capacity is and continuing to stretch it little by little and with, with the support of a guide that can create that safe space for you to explore that, I mean, can be really helpful. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so a couple, so, so a couple things. So... Marisa Skolky: my voice before screaming, and it Matt Kosterman: Screaming Marisa Skolky: that wasn't the hel- most helpful thing, Matt Kosterman: Right Marisa Skolky: And sometimes you feel like you, there's no amount of screaming that you could do that could possibly get it all out or make you feel any lighter. And so that's where also the art process comes into play Matt Kosterman: Hmm. So talk to me about who typically comes to work-- Who do you typically attract to come to work with you, and then what, what does it l- what does it look like? Like what, you know, what, what does that look like? What does that process look like? 'Cause we, we talked earlier about, you know, some people-- And, and I, I, early on in my journey, I thought I was, you know, "Oh, great, I, I did, I did mushrooms. Matt Kosterman: I had a beautiful experience. I touched God, and I'm fixed now." So that's, that's usually not the case. Talk, talk about Marisa Skolky: I Matt Kosterman: who- Marisa Skolky: a big proponent for proper prep and integration and community support. That's always pillars of the work that I do. So every person that works with me gets access to the online Signal group and the biweekly group calls that I have every other Monday at 6:00 PM Eastern Time. I have a microdosing program, I do full dose journeys, and then I also do just straight up preparation, integration for every single type of medicine that there is, um, and supporting that person in, in creating a sense of structure and rebuilding their lives after, uh, a big psychedelic experience. Marisa Skolky: And so usually they come to me and we go over... Like, I have a client intake form that they fill out and liability waivers, um, and we have a free 45-minute discovery call to see if they're a good fit. And then oftentimes they'll come for a two-hour microdose session if they're in, in the Atlanta area. Um, and that way I can assess their nervous system and see how sensitive they are to the medicine. And from there, we do two hours of preparation, uh, a seven-hour journey, and then, uh, two hours of integration, and then the six months of community support. So that's for, like, a full, dose experience. And then a- I'm always putting on monthly music jams, Reiki shares, biweekly dance classes, community events that help people find and connect with their conscious community. And I typically work with MDMA psilocybin, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: microdosing program is LSD and psilocybin. And then I do, uh, a lot of work with, with folks out in Mexico that are struggling with addiction. I go out to Mexico a few times a year and Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: with the people that are, are working with iboga and ibogaine. I don't-- I can't do that here. Uh, I do have a medical consultant on, on call and a nurse practitioner, like, should I need that. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: And I'm also an ordained minister, part of a psychedelic church. Um, and so I do this work as part as my spiritual practice, and I... E- ethics and integrity and authenticity are some of my highest values. And so I work with both men and women and transgender and single mothers and, um... I, I mainly don't work with people that are struggling with schizophrenia or bipolar, um, borderline any like, um, major, major mental ill- illnesses. Matt Kosterman: Psych, yeah, psychosis Marisa Skolky: genius, yeah, and where to pass it on, and I am very well-resourced. Marisa Skolky: Um, I've been doing this a while, and so I know where to send people should they not be a good fit for me, and I think that's really what keeps me in integrity, is that, you know, staying in my lane in terms of, the people that I work with. And mainly it's adults. You know, people that are 26 and over. Uh, and I do work with a lot of elders. Marisa Skolky: I work part-time at dementia adult, adult daycare centers, and I bring expressive arts therapy there to work Matt Kosterman: Mm, Marisa Skolky: And so I do work with people that are in transition, creatively constipated, struggling with PTSD, OCD, Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: I have a breadth of knowledge and modalities with which to support people, and each person gets a very tailored experience. Marisa Skolky: No session is ever the same. So that c- could include painting and drawing and song making and ritual theater and somatic trauma therapy and IFS and hypnotherapy Reiki. And Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: and integration is a m- mix of modalities that help that person focus on one part, usually at a time. So we have kind of like this five-part process, the identify, confront, release, change, grow, and we identify that one part or resistance in themselves that they wanna focus on, and we dive real deep. Matt Kosterman: Okay Marisa Skolky: and so that's kind of how I work, in a very trauma-informed lens. I don't push anyone's nervous system before they're ready. Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah. And, and how, what, what would you say is the average-- Do, is there an average number of ti- of sort of repeat of people that come, like, come... Because I know over the, the course of the last eight years, I mean, I lost count, but I, I, I've had in excess of, you know, 50, 60 medicine journeys. Marisa Skolky: Oh Matt Kosterman: some of, some of them just 'cause they're super fun and I love it. Matt Kosterman: Um, but, but a lot of it was, you know, just li- And those are all, a lot of those are just solo, Marisa Skolky: Угу Matt Kosterman: um, kinda back to that, uh, that concept of, you know, how... I guess I could phrase it another way. How many, how many people are one and done? They're like, "Okay, I'm good," and they're off and their life is completely transformed after, after one journey Marisa Skolky: I mean, maybe like 30%. Matt Kosterman: Oh, that's a good number. Matt Kosterman: That's higher than I would've thought Marisa Skolky: Um, and it just depends on the type of, you know, the people that are coming. S- a lot, I work with a lot of artists or people that artists at heart, and they're wanting to really step into that authentic version of themselves. And usually, you know, if w- if we do one journey, they're We're a lot more in touch with, like I had a, um ... I usually do like the maps protocol, the three journeys Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marisa Skolky: in, um, in a span of six months. So I do have a program for that. Matt Kosterman: Got it. Got it. Marisa Skolky: yeah, and I, Matt Kosterman: With w- Marisa Skolky: have different types of programs based on what, how deep somebody wants to go Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And the, and the ma- and you're using the MAPS protocol with MDMA specifically? Marisa Skolky: MDMA, and I also have, like, a protocol that I use with psilocybin. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: I combine the medicines when appropriate, but I'm always looking in detail on what medications and the medical history of the person and the age and, you know, all that comes into play in terms of, like, how much trauma they've been through. Marisa Skolky: There are some people, like veterans that I work with, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: you know, they, they've tried psilocybin, and they haven't been able to feel anything. And so at that point in time, I a full dose journey of MDMA for them, and then I might incorporate some psilocybin depending on, you know, how well they do with the MDMA. Marisa Skolky: Because once their heart's open, then-- and those blockages and the protector parts come soften, then it's much easier for the psilocybin to do its job Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it can literally block. The, the, the body will, will block if it's, if it's, Marisa Skolky: the body will block this l- spec- specifically. I've seen this time and time again, like specifically for, for veterans. Matt Kosterman: With psilocybin where they block the experience. Yeah. Marisa Skolky: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I had some... Yeah Marisa Skolky: them on microdosing, and they couldn't feel anything. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: Yep Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I had a, I had a, a, a, a physician who came to me with deep depression when I was serving medicine, and he blocked the MDMA. And when he was-- Yeah, when he was, when he was riding home with, uh, with his ride, who was a friend of mine, he later called me and, and said, "It was like I had him..." It was his brother. Matt Kosterman: He said, "It was like I had him back again." Because he-- O-once he was out of the ceremony, Marisa Skolky: Yeah Matt Kosterman: he, he thought he was like, you know, he could let his guard down, and, and then the humor came online and the heart opening sort of started. But, but he, he blocked it. Yeah, he didn't want a booster, which he really desperately needed, but I'm- wasn't gonna push anything on him. Matt Kosterman: So I've, I've, I've witnessed that. It's fascinating, the, Marisa Skolky: Yeah, I mean, Matt Kosterman: the Marisa Skolky: we need to have no agenda, Matt Kosterman: Right Marisa Skolky: hard as that can be sometimes. But, you know, it's spirit led, and, uh, I'm ... I just try to be a clear channel for the divine and hold space without agenda and what needs to come through to come through. And sometimes the lesson is, like, learning how to be with disappointment, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: how to release expectations. Marisa Skolky: Sometimes that's a journey Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this person was-- they did not wanna get into their body, and MDMA takes you deeply into your body, and it felt, it, it felt... It was a strange feeling as so many, you know, highly intellectual people, which, which I thought of myself for a long time as, as such. Um, so it sounds like it's, uh, it's a whole panoply, it's a whole smorgasbord, if you will, of, of, of types of people that, that come to you Marisa Skolky: we set up the scene in such a way that we have like spaces in the room for like this is the music station, and this is the art station, and this is, you know, the station where you can explore with like hula hoops and mats and different types of like, you know, massage tools. Marisa Skolky: So I like to create a, a felt sense experience for the people that... You know, some people just lay there on the mat for seven hours, but other people Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marisa Skolky: So Matt Kosterman: a- I was gonna ask if you'd had people who just would lay there with the eye shades on and go in, and go inside. Yeah Marisa Skolky: do, and they don't move or make a sound at all. And then there's some people that wanna engage, and talk, and, and, and do creative things. I had a client that created a whole piece of artwork, you know, while he was on MDMA, and, know? So there's people that wanna explore that type of thing, and then there's also folks that wanna make sure that they're outside. Marisa Skolky: Like, they put Matt Kosterman: うん。う、うん。 うん。 Oh, Marisa Skolky: can their bodies with flowers, um, Matt Kosterman: beautiful. Very cool. How, and how-- where's your discernment around, um, somebody where, where you think they may just be, they may be bypassing something that's coming up and they wanna stay, just stay busy? Like, do you-- are, are you-- do you sense into that? Or they... Marisa Skolky: Yes. I ask, I, I, I, I just name what I am seeing and I get curious about it, and I ask them how they feel Matt Kosterman: Okay Marisa Skolky: that wants to s- that wants to stay busy. oftentimes, you know, for people that, especially the s- people that struggle with ADHD, um, they could focus more when they are moving. Matt Kosterman: Mm Marisa Skolky: sometime... Like, I had a, I've had clients before that once they started moving around and making sound, then they finally were able to release what they had to release. Matt Kosterman: Okay Marisa Skolky: sometimes it is of benefit to do movement, but I usually get them on, we do what's called nonlinear movement method, where they get on all four, uh, hands and feet, hands and knees, and they're moving their spine Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: This is a, a practice that was developed by Michaela Boehm called Nonlinear Movement Method. for people that are, like, feeling really anxious or s- you know, uncomfortable in their bodies, sometimes some small movement with their spine can be supportive. Or I might come over and do some reiki and hold their head or their feet and, Matt Kosterman: OK Marisa Skolky: know, use some healing tools, like sound bowls on them and things like that. Marisa Skolky: I mean, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: different ways to help people be with themselves Matt Kosterman: It sounds like it. I, I need to get down there. Sounds like a lot of fun. Marisa Skolky: It's, it is fun. Yeah, it can be, it can be fun. Matt Kosterman: Can be fun, yeah, yeah. I think I've, I've, I've... Yeah, I think it'd be fun. I've gone through most, uh, a lot of challenging experiences, but they've mostly been fun. Yeah. Um, well, and speaking of that, I mean, it's a good segue. What, what do you f- what are the, what are typically, uh, what are some of the more challenging experiences that you see in people? Marisa Skolky: Yeah, I mean, spiritual emergencies, so people, like, digging up traumas that they didn't even realize that they had, like sexual abuse from when they were a child, and not knowing if it's real and not knowing if it actually happened to them. Um, there's been some people that were, like, nauseous the entire time, and they were in such resistance to themselves and they were... was hard to just hold space for, you know, just someone just fighting themselves so hard that they, you know, they wanna force themselves to throw up because it's so painful to be with themselves. And the person that was really nauseous that couldn't throw up, that person ended up having, um, really positive days and weeks after that. So, like, they needed to see how much resistance they were having to themselves to be able to finally, like, let go. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: always some sort of gift in it. Um, there's also been times in group ceremonies where some people have triggered each other, and s- people have tried to run away, and I Matt Kosterman: Mm. Marisa Skolky: I've seen that happen, which is why I always take people's keys and cell phones and put them in a safe where they cannot access it. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. We, uh, we, and, and, and so, yeah, it sounds like everybody is well-supported b- you know, before, during, and after. Um, we, we chatted briefly a- about, uh, when we-- before we got online about the, uh, solo journeys versus the groups and that lately, and sort of the expecta-- I mean, I guess I'd, I'd love to have you use this as a, as an expectation-setting sort of a thing around groups 'cause we talked about how people wanna come in and kinda do this wham bam, uh, you know, like, like punch in, take the drugs, have a little experience, and then punch out and go back to life. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, people want, like, a one-day experience, and there are people that are doing that. And I, I can't speak for anyone else, and I would prefer not to judge anyone else for it, Matt Kosterman: Of course, of course Marisa Skolky: it is that it's a typically a three-day weekend, and it's typically one medicine. It's not like one medicine one day, and one medicine the second day, and one medicine the third day. Marisa Skolky: I think that that's way too much Matt Kosterman: Угу Marisa Skolky: be way too much. Um, and we focus on one medicine, and maybe we do, like, cannabis or cacao on Friday night, and we're doing a, a medicine dance, an intention ceremony, and burning bowl ceremony. And we do authentic relating games and home-cooked food. And then the next night is when we do a psilocybin ceremony or an MDMA ceremony. Marisa Skolky: And then the next night is, like ... The next day is, like, inter- full day for integration. So it's, for me, when I do group retreats, it's a, it's a minimum of three days Matt Kosterman: Three days, yeah. Residential, everybody stays there Marisa Skolky: everyone sleeping over, meals accounted for, integration preparation, and then there's also two group calls before the jour- before anyone even comes to the space. Because I want people to be acquainted and familiar with each other before they even step foot into the ceremony space Matt Kosterman: Yeah, for sure. Super important to, to know Marisa Skolky: like also group calls afterwards. Marisa Skolky: So, and, and a, you know, WhatsApp chat, and so people can stay connected. And so creating conscious community that lasts where people can really lean on each other and support each other long after the ceremony is I've done a good job if people are friends for a while after that Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That tends to be, I've-- In my experience, it tends to be, you know, it, it tapers off. Like in- initially, first couple weeks after the ceremony, everybody's like super tight, messages are flying back and forth, and then it, it sort of, it sort of, it tapers off, which is fine. But the, the... it's great to have the community still there. Matt Kosterman: Um, I mean, I have several of them in, in WhatsApp, and I can go jump in at any time and be like, you, you know, be- get resourced, ask for something or share something, Marisa Skolky: Exactly Matt Kosterman: 'cause you've kind of, you've gone, you've gone through the crucible together. You've gone through the fire. Marisa Skolky: like a spaceship. Matt Kosterman: Like a fa- Yeah Marisa Skolky: and it's al- it's different every single time, and I, I would say that something that I've learned over the years is just, like, having really aligned fas- co-facilitators that, that co-facilitate with me that are really grounded and resourced. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: you know, had to learn over the years which people were, were resourced and able to hold that space, and which ones were not. um, and I've also been to a lot of group retreats that were held in a way that was harmful, and ones that have been held in really beautiful, healing ways. And so you just, from ... I'm very much an experiential person, which I think you probably already know by now, Matt Kosterman: Yeah。 Marisa Skolky: 3/5 in human design. Marisa Skolky: It's like the martyr heretic where I have to, like, learn through Matt Kosterman: Okay. Marisa Skolky: the trial and error. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: And Matt Kosterman: I, yeah Marisa Skolky: sense of what is, feels right for me, then I take that embodied integration, and I practice it in real Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, I'm a one-three, so I've got investigator martyr. Marisa Skolky: Ага Matt Kosterman: Like, and I'm here for all the things. I mean, I've had so many crazy experiences. It's just been amazing. Yeah, all, all ends of the spectrum from working in, you know, three-letter agencies in Washington to, you know, tripping in Mexico to Marisa Skolky: Wow Matt Kosterman: past presidents. Matt Kosterman: Like, it's a, it's been a crazy ride. Marisa Skolky: It Matt Kosterman: and you-- Marisa Skolky: such Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: wealth of knowledge and experience that really shapes, um, your wisdom Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And that, and I l- and, and I like to believe is also serving my higher self in, in ways that I have no idea. Um, so you've got... I don't, I'm not sure when this one's gonna hit, but you've got a, a women's retreat coming up. Marisa Skolky: I do. Yes. So this Matt Kosterman: And Marisa Skolky: I Matt Kosterman: do you do these regularly? Uh-huh. Marisa Skolky: sweat lodge. Um, it's October 13th to the 18th, and Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay Marisa Skolky: We've got two more spots left. There's 11 women already signed up. And, um, it'll be co-facilitated by, uh, a certified hypnotherapist and retreat leader named Erin Newman, and it's called Jade and Jaguar, and it's the 13th of October to the 18th. Marisa Skolky: All meals, all accommodations, Matt Kosterman: Everything great Marisa Skolky: swimming, and Mayan pyramid visits, and, you Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow Marisa Skolky: lovely, intentional shamanic and somatic-focused practices Matt Kosterman: Can I put on a wig and come? That sounds fun. Marisa Skolky: You can come swim in the Matt Kosterman: I, Marisa Skolky: with Matt Kosterman: I promise I'll be good. Marisa Skolky: I Matt Kosterman: you do Marisa Skolky: men's retreats too. I actually really enjoy working with men and, um, I put one on last October with, um, uh, a woman who is a microdosing coach in, I think she's in North Carolina. But she's f- she was fabulous, and we did all men and two women facilitators. Marisa Skolky: So the Matt Kosterman: Nice Marisa Skolky: that created a, I guess, a softening for the Matt Kosterman: うん。うん、うん。 I Marisa Skolky: but, um, we really did bring a sense of vulnerability and softness to the men's retreat that I actually really, really enjoyed Matt Kosterman: bet you did. Yeah, that sounds fun. That sounds great. And so, and you, so you do these regularly, the women's retreat, the men's, Marisa Skolky: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: r- n- Marisa Skolky: the, you know, co-ed, you know, Matt Kosterman: go ahead Marisa Skolky: But, you know, in terms of safety, especially for women in psychedelics, and I'm on the board of like, um, a psychedelic, church called the AEP, and, uh, I've been focused on feminine safety in the psychedelic space as well as healing arts, and I will say that that's still a really big problem in, in our spaces, is making sure that women feel heard and respected and feel, like, safe in, in that sort of dynamic. Marisa Skolky: And when it comes to co-ed retreats, that's something that has to be very delicately handled, um, in that sort of space. So Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Not everybody's ready to, to jump into that, that Ista con- that Ista container. Marisa Skolky: for couples, you know, for, Matt Kosterman: Right Marisa Skolky: you know, couples coming together, that be- could be nice, but Matt Kosterman: Yeah, but there's Marisa Skolky: wants to be hit on while they're, like, n- while they're tripping or touched. Marisa Skolky: You know what I mean? Or Matt Kosterman: Oh, no. Yeah, no, 100%. Oh, God, no. Yeah. No, very clear boundaries on that. But it, it can, it, it, I've... Marisa Skolky: boundaries Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I've also been in, in numerous medicine, co-ed medicine containers, and, uh, it, it's very powerful when it's w- and when it's held right, and when it's, uh... Marisa Skolky: And it Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: right too, Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. Yeah. Marisa Skolky: Yeah Matt Kosterman: I'm actually, uh, one of my next interviews coming up is with, um, Neil, and I can't, I forget his last name, but he, he, uh, you've probably seen him on the, on the boards. Matt Kosterman: He runs the, Marisa Skolky: Mine Lumen? Matt Kosterman: Mind Lumen. Yeah. So I'm gonna interview him about, about psychedelic eth-ethics and psychedelics, and, uh, and, and also Ashley Carman is, is on my... Marisa Skolky: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: professional guide network. Yeah Matt Kosterman: yeah, so I think it's, uh, I, I'm, I'm very excited to chat with him 'cause I haven't had those conversations, uh, about ethics and psychedelics, and I think it's important that people know that, you know, it, there, there is, it is being taken seriously in, in many circles Marisa Skolky: in the underground that we do have ethics committees like SHINE and Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Epic, Mind Luminous Neals, and, uh, yeah. And so it-- just because it's in the underground, and that's been forced o-upon us by the crazy patriarchal, ridiculous, uh, rules and laws that are founded in power and control, uh, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Um, but that doesn't mean that it's the Wild West and that, you know, that there aren't people that are really taking this stuff seriously. Marisa Skolky: I Matt Kosterman: and yeah. And so I, I think, I think, you know, there's a, a-- it, it, it's, it's-- there, it's be- there's becoming more and more awareness around psychedelic medicines for healing and, uh... But it's still interesting to me. I was with somebody the other day, and they were like, "Oh, yeah, isn't that, that microdosing thing is catching on." Matt Kosterman: And I'm like, "Yeah, it is, and, and, and so is the macrodosing." Uh, you know, microdosing is great. But-- and actually, that, that's a great, that's a, another great segue. What-- talk about micro versus macrodosing and w- and what you see. You, you said you work with LSD, you work with psilocybin Marisa Skolky: is sub-perceptual, so you're feeling a softening in your heart space and in your reactions to things. It's creating some space awareness around your patterns. But you're not full-on tripping. You're still able to go to work, drive your car, take care of your kids. Um, but it's providing a almost like a softening energetically for you to, you know, to, to amplify kinda what's on top. Marisa Skolky: Like, what needs to be addre- what needs to be looked at and loved and integrated. it's done in a way where it's in a s- more of a specific protocol, whether that's four days on, three days off, or every other day, and typically done with embodiment. So that means s- maybe you're taking your microdose and, like, going to do yoga, or microdosing and then you dance, or microdosing, going for a walk, or, and then journaling. Marisa Skolky: So there's some sort of ritual Matt Kosterman: OK Marisa Skolky: practice because the mushrooms really, in order for g- to get them to flow, the movement is a key ... And also, to get them into different parts of your body, it's important to include movement in the microdosing. When it comes to a full-dose journey, you're taking anywhere from, like, three to five grams typically. Marisa Skolky: And so a microdose could be anywhere from, like, .1 grams to, like, .5 or .6. Um, and it's s- much safer to be microdosing if you're on an SSRI versus if you're taking a full-dose journey. You wanna be tap- mo- most of the time, you have to be tapering Matt Kosterman: Especially, especially with, yeah, especially with MDMA, psilocybin, Marisa Skolky: Uh, yeah, Matt Kosterman: s- yeah Marisa Skolky: 'cause you don't want serotonin syndrome. Marisa Skolky: So ... And also, they fight for the same receptors, and you don't want a blunting effect, and there's really no point in being on an SSRI for a full-dose journey 'cause you're just, you know, negating the properties that are allowing the mushrooms to go as deep as they need to go Matt Kosterman: Yeah, totally. Or, or needing to take quite a bit to, to over... It's like a, it's like a push-pull. Um, Marisa Skolky: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: yeah. And so, yeah Marisa Skolky: for people that are newer or that wanna start to slowly build relationship and habits over time, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Marisa Skolky: know, it's a softer, more steady, more consistent approach of aware- creating awareness and, you know, creating relationship, really building relationship over time and slow and Matt Kosterman: With the pl- Marisa Skolky: You know, for Matt Kosterman: with the plant Marisa Skolky: you know, it could be really helpful. But, you know, sometimes people need the big clearing Matt Kosterman: The, the, I, yeah, I was, I'm a big fan of the sledgehammer, but that's just sort of how I work. Marisa Skolky: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um Marisa Skolky: you know, people that just like intense experiences, and junkies or, you know, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: wanna experience a more intense ex- There's some people that are, have a lot of blocks, and maybe they can't feel the microdose, but they need something a little bit bigger so that they can unblock themselves and then feel more sensitive to the microdose Matt Kosterman: Yep. Yeah, just you never know. But it, the microdosing is a great way to, to introduce the, the plant to the body and the body to the plant. Marisa Skolky: Right Matt Kosterman: and so you have program, you have a program that you work with people on that, yeah Marisa Skolky: program, a microdosing program. It comes with group support and 18-page packet of all sorts of intentions and everything you need to know, a weekly playlist to dance to. Matt Kosterman: Oh, fun. Marisa Skolky: sorts of playlists Matt Kosterman: Ja Marisa Skolky: and then it also comes with one-on-one support and and up to six months of, um, sacrament, depending on what they're using and how Matt Kosterman: Oh, and what they're using. Marisa Skolky: So, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and how do, and how do you, how do you make that determination? So it's sort of between... You can't microdose MDMA. It doesn't work that way. So you're, you're, uh, uh, LSD you said, or psilocybin Marisa Skolky: or psilocybin Matt Kosterman: And how, and do you have a, do you look for particular things in a person to, that tells you which way to go? Marisa Skolky: yeah, those that are struggling with ADHD or just need more energy, um, they typically are a better candidate for LSD microdosing, uh, especially if they have, tr- like, r- treatment-resistant depression. It could be really helpful in, like, uplifting their mood. but for people that struggle with a lot of anxiety, LSD could exacerbate that and not be all that helpful. Marisa Skolky: So, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: that makes sense. I also muscle test, help people understand what's right for their bodies. And then psilocybin are, is definitely for those, the people that need to feel their emotions but have been masking or pushing them down, and that's, like, a lot of people. But, um, having space to be able to feel what you feel is also part of the process, so it's a commitment that you're gonna Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Marisa Skolky: some space in your life, at least 15 minutes a day, to really connect and to get clear and to tune into what it is that you feel and what you need and to pray and ask the medicine to guide you and to be open to the answers and to look for the signs that are there and to reach out for support and, you know, to commune with nature and to tune into what, what's really important in your life. Marisa Skolky: And taking that space and time just for you is sacred, and creating that ritual every day creates self-trust. Matt Kosterman: Right Marisa Skolky: in- self-integrity so that you can start to trust yourself more and more the more you commit to... Even, you know, as they say, when you're starting any sort of new thing, that just microdosing it, right? Marisa Skolky: Like, you're eating, uh, something you're allergic to, you take a small amount, right? And Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm Marisa Skolky: uh, a relationship with it, and over time you can feel more and more perhaps supported and, um, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I think that-- yeah, I think that's a super important distinction because there's still, uh, this general consensus that the, like, the pill-- like, I'm gonna take the pill and I'll be fixed. Marisa Skolky: Угу Matt Kosterman: just urge people to not... I mean, I, I love the way that you've laid out, you know, this program and with the intentionality and the setting aside time 'cause it's, it's not-- it, it's completely different from taking an SSRI the way that those have been prescribed. Matt Kosterman: It's like, Marisa Skolky: medicine. Matt Kosterman: right. It's like... And, and, and those are very unco- SSRIs, I find personally, my personal opinion, are very unconscious medicines because they're, they're getting at symptom control, they're not getting at root cause. And the whole approach is you go to the doctor, "I don't feel well." "Here's a pill. Matt Kosterman: Go away. Go take this pill and go away." I-is, is sort of, you know-- Or come in, I was fa- I was on SSRIs for years, so I speak from deep experience. Or it was, you know, you have your med check once a month. You come in, "How you feeling?" Blah, blah, blah. How can I, how can I summarize what's been going on in a, in a month in the 23 minutes that you're gonna give me for this appointment? Matt Kosterman: Um, but it's, it's really... It, it kinda goes back to the old, uh, Zen Buddhist master, like the, the, the master says you, you know, you need to... You say, "Master, how long do I need to meditate every day?" And he says, "One hour." He says, "I, I can't possibly m-make time for an hour." He says, "Two hours." You-- because as you, as you start to slow down, what's interesting is time starts to open up and, and you start to, you start to have more time. Marisa Skolky: Right. Matt Kosterman: it's, it's paradoxical, um, so I really like that. Marisa Skolky: We have to intentionally create space to be with ourselves, otherwise we're gonna be running on autopilot Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah. A couple years ago, my friend Laura O'Malley, who's a channel, I've had her on the show, and I was talking to her and her guides about... I don't know, it came up like, "I don't, you know, I don't have the, the time." And they said, "You, you absolutely have the time." And, and she said what she'd been doing, um, and I did this for a while and it's made space, is if I find myself rushed, I say, "I make time. Matt Kosterman: I have all the time I need. Marisa Skolky: Mm. Matt Kosterman: time. I have all the time I need." And, and it works. I'll find myself, you know... I, I hate to be late. I was late for this, this appointment this morning. Totally spaced it out. But if I find myself cutting it a little bit too close to drive someplace and I'm stressed about getting there on time, I just say, "I, I make time. Matt Kosterman: I have all the time I need." And every single time I end up on time. Marisa Skolky: I love it. Yes. I Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: for that too, as you probably can already know. Matt Kosterman: What's the, what's the song? Marisa Skolky: It Matt Kosterman: gonna sing us out? Marisa Skolky: space for what I want. Make space, make space. I make space for what I want, yeah. That's like the chorus. Matt Kosterman: I love it. Amazing. Do you, and do you, do you pr- sing when, uh, when people are journeying? Do you play mu- instruments and sing, support them? Marisa Skolky: language that I channel, and Matt Kosterman: Okay. Marisa Skolky: and in that, um, yeah, I'm a professional singer, musician, and so I'm oftentimes, especially in group ceremonies, I'm singing for the whole seven hours. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, that was a big part of that, the, the first group ceremony that I attended was, uh, uh, we had a beautiful professional musician. She's recorded many, many albums, and she supported us with her guitar and her ukulele, and yeah, it was, it was an otherwo- otherwo- otherworldly. Uh, yeah Marisa Skolky: is unmatched, right? You hear the vibrations in real time. I also hire, um, a good friend of mine who's, um, a sound healer, and he does, like, throat singing and didgeridoo, and Matt Kosterman: Mm. Marisa Skolky: come in and we, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love, Marisa Skolky: the whole room. Matt Kosterman: I love the didgeridoo. Have you seen these, have you seen these like, uh, bent metal, th- these like flat metal crosses that you bang with a mallet before? Marisa Skolky: No Matt Kosterman: Oh, I'll send you a link. They, they, they did them at our retreat in Mexico, uh, especially during the, the mellow, the, the come down of the journey, and it's just like this wong, wong, wong, wong. Matt Kosterman: Like yeah, just this... Marisa Skolky: that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I have a link, I have a link someplace. I reconnected with the, the musical guy and, uh, from it, and I was like, "What, what, what were those things? I can't find them anywhere," and he sent them. So yeah, the music is amazing. Um, what else, what, what else you wanna add? What are you, what are you up to these days? Matt Kosterman: What are you, what are you... You got books you really like? You have, uh, podcasts other than mine, of course, that you really like? Marisa Skolky: favorite book that has really made probably one of the most biggest impacts has been The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Marisa Skolky: Branden. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, read that. Yeah Marisa Skolky: when I was in Mexico, um, working with iboga, I read... I finished reading that book, and I got into the chapter about integrity, and I was like, "Oh, wow." just... Marisa Skolky: something landed so hard for me, Matt Kosterman: Excuse me Marisa Skolky: I was like, "This is the answer." Like, if I don't have integrity, I literally cannot trust myself. And so trusting myself is the only thing that matters, um, in terms of me being able to show up and help other people. If I'm not in integrity with my practices, with my self-care, with my beliefs, then, you know, there's gonna be... Uh, it's really the only thing that keeps me safe, too, doing this work. So I would say that that book has probably made the biggest impact Matt Kosterman: Nice Marisa Skolky: you stem-sentence stems on how to change your thoughts around build... Like, it gives you a method on how to build your self-esteem. know, how to take personal accountability, how to, you know, like, how to, how to work on that in a real practical way, and I appreciate that 'cause it brings kind of like the, the woo woo into like the ac-ac-everyday practice. Marisa Skolky: And I liked... I like creating everyday practices to help you understand and get to know yourself. So it's not just like out there in the ethers of, you know, what you think you could do or just say, "I love myself," and feel like you're gonna be better. But it's an actual practice of, of creating ritual and ceremony around, around building that self-integrity, and that means doing what you say you're gonna do. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: And it means if you say you're gonna journal and you don't journal, that every time you don't do that, you're, you're of whacking away at your, your self-integrity. And that's gonna show up in the way that you, you know, hold space for other people. And so for me, energetic hygiene and having my mentors and having regular... My, my own IFS coach that I see regularly and getting my acupuncture, like, all those things are really important to me. I'm currently in school. Like, I'm a lifelong learner. And, I try to be in integrity the best I can by showing up and actually embodying the work so that other people can see what it looks like Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it sounds like it very much. Impressive. Marisa Skolky: Yeah, I live it. I live Matt Kosterman: We love it. Marisa Skolky: it, I show Matt Kosterman: Yeah Marisa Skolky: that looks like. I don't just tell it, I, like, show people in real time, know, what it, what it looks like Matt Kosterman: What? What Marisa Skolky: um, to make your life your art. Matt Kosterman: Ja Marisa Skolky: one of those experiences recently was my cat was in the hospital for, like, a Matt Kosterman: Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Marisa Skolky: And he Matt Kosterman: It's Marisa Skolky: cleaning, and it went wrong, and he's now, like, completely deaf, and he... Matt Kosterman: うん。 Nice Marisa Skolky: sing to him ever again, and that was something that we... I... He loved to hear me sing. And, and so it was so, so much grief, and I ended up doing a medicine dance, and I danced, and I wrote a poem. Um, and, uh, it, it healed part of my heart, you know? Marisa Skolky: Like, to be able to put it into h- much I love and care for this, this beautiful Matt Kosterman: being, yeah Marisa Skolky: to put that into art, and I documented it in real time, and, you know, I put it out there in my newsletters and, like, my poem, my raw poems of, you know, me grieving Matt Kosterman: うん。うんうん、うんうん。 Yeah. Marisa Skolky: grief? Marisa Skolky: How do you through your anger? Like, what do you do when you feel anxious? Like, how do you be with yourself? And giving people ways and processes and rituals and practices and spaces with where they can be their authentic, um, messy human selves is something that allows me to feel like I'm living my purpose and doing my mission. Matt Kosterman: And I think the key word there is work through, the word, like through. It's, it's the way is through it. It's not to suppress it, it's through it. Marisa Skolky: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: 'Cause you Matt Kosterman: It- Marisa Skolky: your phone and just for hours just to not think about what you don't wanna think about, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Marisa Skolky: it's just making it worse. Matt Kosterman: Just makes it worse. Marisa Skolky: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Well, Marissa, thanks so much for taking the time Marisa Skolky: Thanks Matt Kosterman: and being here and sharing your, your wisdom with everybody. I will put, uh... I'll just say the, what's your, what's, uh, a we- a, uh, connection, a website that they can find, where they can find you? Or Marisa Skolky: My company is Beyond Limits Expressive Arts Therapy LLC. So Matt Kosterman: Say that, say that one again. There w- there was a little, you got stepped on a little bit. It's what? Marisa Skolky: Yeah, Beyond Limits Expressive Arts Therapy LLC is my company. Matt Kosterman: Great. And Marisa's with one S, M-A-R-I. Marisa Skolky: with one S, Skolke, is my website, marissaskolke.com Matt Kosterman: Great, and it'll be in the metadata, so, um, reach out. Thanks, Marissa. Marisa Skolky: Thank you so much, Matt. It's been Matt Kosterman: All right. Marisa Skolky: connecting with you Matt Kosterman: Enjoy the day Marisa Skolky: Thank you