Latest / Difference Makers Podcast / Nicola Ellam on why AI won’t take your job—it will take it to a whole new level

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Nicola Ellam on why AI won’t take your job—it will take it to a whole new level · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to everybody who has dialed in for this episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sinead Donovan, and I'm delighted to be joined by Nicola Elum today.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Nicola is a member of ICAEW, but also a AI CPA in the States.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And she is joining us today from New York, where she is the managing principal of CLA, ranked about number eight in the USA.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So she is really trailing a blaze there.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So Nicola, I know you started your training in the UK.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I am going to hand over to you to fill in the gaps between training in the UK and to where you are now in New York.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Sanaid, and thank you so much for having me here.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be joining you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my background, I went to the University of Lancaster, studied business studies, went and did a year abroad in Hong Kong, and ultimately ended up at PWC for my initial first job.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Once I graduated that program, I had the very fortunate circumstances of been able to do a what was originally a two-year second to New York.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: We then extended to three years.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then ultimately I am 10 years in and I am still here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: As part of that, you know, getting the qualification here in the States, I am exam qualified.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still waiting for them to license me, but I'm expecting it any day now.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I've had a great journey both in the UK with P2BC and then the couple companies I've been with here in the States.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really phenomenal, and I'm very fortunate.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So gosh, from the UK to Hong Kong to the States, there's a lot to unpack there.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I want to just dip into there, if it's okay.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you say you're exam qualified, um, but you're waiting for your license.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is really a really interesting fact for a lot of people who are listening.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about the what you need to do to go about becoming an AI CPA, because unfortunately, ICAEW don't have full reciprocity.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's definitely not an easy process.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what makes it more complicated is it varies state by state.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Even New Jersey and New York have different um rules or requirements.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so depending on which side of the river you want to you want to take that qualification on.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: But the way that I um went down my pathway was to do the 150 credits.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm effectively I could use my university credits and then had to build those up to get you know the 150.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, also take an account for accounting, certain tax credits.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually did need to go back to school here in the United States and get some additional credits for that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I already had the experience through my time with PDBC to get the work experience sign-off.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it's 12 months, but I got obviously significantly more than that.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then doing four exams.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the process has changed recently.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that I did the CPA um has changed and is continuing to change.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, four exams, a lot of education and then some work experience.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that is dedication for you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and well done, and congratulations.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and obviously, you do need to be licensed to be.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference to become a partner in the firm, hence why you're a managing principal?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right, or have I got that completely wrong?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's a really great question because again, that's one of those rules that they recently changed.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: You actually don't need to be licensed to be a managing principal.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: However, you do obviously need to have licensed partners in your firm to be able to sign tax returns or sign um audit opinions, but to be the managing principal, they they did just change that in the last couple of years.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, brilliant.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: You've you've actually solved a lot of things for me there.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I I personally, you know, I think the the takeaway from that is that it is a global profession, albeit there is some semantics about you know sitting exams and everything.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the more we can get it a little bit more seamlessly globally, um, I think the better for everyone.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, Nicola, let me let me jump into CLA and the work that you're doing now.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know it's a really, really progressive firm.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: We've had a couple of chats um before before this.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you've done some really exciting things in the space um around EI and the innovation around that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're continuing our journey there.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm really excited.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the reasons why, if I'm being honest, I joined CLA and I continue to stay at CLA is the investment that we're making and remaining as a partnership model as well, um, but primarily around AI.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so a couple of years ago now, we would we announced um we'd be investing about half a billion dollars over the next several years in our AI journey, and not just AI, but what we call our solutions master plan, which encompasses AI and then other technologies too.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of that, you know, we we have several goals.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of it is to democratize AI.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: We want AI to be in the hands of our clients.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: We recognize it's a huge investment.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the small mom and pop shops or the middle market businesses that we serve don't necessarily have the capital to front that.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can we allow AI to be part of their journey and provide them that support?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other one, you know, it's it's about our people.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't go to college or university to become data entry clerks, right?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: We we went there to become accountants or advisors or consultants or whatever it may be.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how do we um, you know, reduce or eliminate um data entry?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And part of it is utilizing AI to do that for us.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so two sides of the same coin, using it to better the uh experience for your teams, but also then using it as a, I guess, as a service offering to your clients.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what have you seen as you've, you know, I suppose progressed on that journey as a firm?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've done some really critical things, like you've you've you've built some connection centers and you've really dug deep into it.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: What have you seen?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are the benefits being to everyone?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the productivity that you can get when you're reducing that, I don't want to call it wasted time, but it really is, you know, there's a better way to do it and become more efficient.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can become more productive.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can rather than trying to dig into the data, which I think is a lot of an issue that people can do, you now have tools that can build the data, um, the visuals around it, and you can interpret it and advise on it a lot more.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're seeing a lot of exciting things.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you mentioned the connection centers there.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, what those are, it are CLA is investing in properties effectively that will bring together our um colleagues across not just the US, but also the globe, um, as well as our clients and our communities.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the primary reasons for these connection centers is to have those education parts.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they host our CLA Academy, which is now using qualifications that we deem, you know, they have the skill sets, they build you out, they educate you on the skill sets that you need to work alongside um the technology and become better accountants.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And those academies, what I think are really fantastic.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're not for people who you would think is your traditional accountant as well.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: We realize that when technology comes along, it can take a lot of the um the knowledge, like you're able to use it a little bit more.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's different skill sets that people can bring to the table, couple that with the technology to really become um extraordinary um professionals.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really exciting.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the the the, I don't want to call it ironic, but funny parts is when we actually went on our solutions master plan, one of the key roles that CLA actually created was the chief people officer to really focus on the fact that this technology is not here to, you know, we're not a technology firm.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're we might be technology enabled, but we'll never be a technology-only firm.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're still a people firm.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do we really upskill and enhance our people to use that technology?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is, I mean, I mean, sorry, what grabs me is the absolute positivity about this and the you know the opportunities that you're you're grabbing uh with this.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned there that with the academies, you are seeing, or I hope I paraphrase this right, you're seeing different skill sets that that the accountants either need to use or are being able to use, because as you say, a lot of the I guess more menial or manual work is being done by by AI.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are those skill sets?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is it is it very much coming down to kind of relationship drills or or or or what are you seeing?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite a variety.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: What we've been looking at is the different personas within the organization.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So part of it will definitely be your relationship skills.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's important.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the connection to our clients is going to be even more important and really building that trust when we're using technology.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you have project management.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that skill set is going to be even more important as we go forward and you're having to manage maybe more volume, um, even if it is ultimately more efficient and less work.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also think about, you know, maybe you're not preparing anymore.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: You might have hired an associate or an intern to be preparing something.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that associate or intern now can start to review.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're using technology to prepare it and then giving them the critical skills to evaluate the technology's work and really um, you know, again, think critically how do we move that forward?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's different skill sets depending on the different personas, but we're looking at it by levels and how those individuals are going to interact with clients and or be um, you know, working alongside the technology.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and let me be devil's advocate here if I can, and challenge you.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in that when you said there that um interns or or or new grads or whatever are now maybe reviewing rather than doing, how can they review work if they haven't actually done it previously?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was kind of the traditional learning curve and I guess almost like an apprenticeship model.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but it sounds like you have really nailed how you do this without without necessarily doing the inputting.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would I would definitely say we're still on a journey there, but the way that we're looking at um at how do associates, you know, effectively upskill themselves to become reviewers, we recognize that a lot of the universities are also investing in technology and enhancing their students.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of this they may already cover when they're going through their program because the accounting qualification and the accounting programs are changing to adopt technology.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Another part is thinking about sandboxes.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have scenarios that when you're doing your training, rather than doing it live on a client, you're now doing it on the simulations or in a sandbox where it's a lot safer, you can kind of control how those individuals are learning, what they're identifying, and upskilling them much quicker than potentially we would have in the past.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, the importance of sandbox um cannot be taken away.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that, and and well done to to to the firm and and and to you.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Final question on this kind of journey or aspect.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we've talked about kind of the entry-level accountants and how you are training them and how it's impacted them.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: How are you training the more experienced?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not gonna call them dinosaurs, but maybe the more experienced accountants who who to this might be very, very new.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, and is there the willingness to embrace this?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: There definitely is.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of see it as the time when the internet came in, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you're willing to use the technology, if you're willing to learn, you're not you're not gonna get left behind, right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: This this technology is really going to make your day-to-day much better.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from a training perspective on everything that's going on.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: We have different training programs, again, using our connection centers.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was just there last week for um a certain um training program over there in Minneapolis.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um going through bite-sized chunks.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I actually there was one conversation had um maybe a couple of months ago about maybe right now we do 40 hours of learning and we do it to get our CPE credits.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe in the future, because we have more time back, that learning changes to be 120 hours or somewhere in between, where you spend more time and education and making sure that you can stay up to date with everything that's going on with this technology versus again being in the weeds.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's quite a variety of ways that we're doing it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of it is on the job training.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: We um last year, I think it was last year, we um actually built out a change management department within CLA to help with uh, you know, bringing people on board and really taking everybody on that journey, recognizing that whether you're a Gen X or a Gen Z, whatever you may be, it's good it looks a little bit different.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you the way that you learn looks a little bit different.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we make sure that people are bought into that and really wanting to go on this journey with us?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you you you raised something really kind of critical there in intergenerational working, and I know that it's it's something that I've kind of um researched quite a bit recently.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is that the I guess the uh innovation and that can that can be driven with with the generations working together, but it's very it's fascinating that you say that the generations maybe need different approaches to learning.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I I I mean I take it from some of the individuals that I work with, or even my style versus other people, it can be generational, it can also be personality driven.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I learn in, you know, putting my head down in a book and reading it and writing it all down.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my colleagues learns from five-minute bite-sized chunks of information um, you know, delivered via a video.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: It it all depends, but I think that that's the beauty of the workforce is how diverse um and how multi-generational it is right now.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what strikes me is we've been chatting for whatever it is, about 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and we we we've we've dug deep into the profession, and and we kind of haven't once talked about numbers.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does absolutely dispel the myth that that accountancy is all about the numbers.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking about technology, we're talking about relationships, we're talking about education, we're talking about, you know, innovation.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: It it it really is an ad for for what the profession stands for at the moment, isn't it?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the beauty of the profession.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I did leave the profession for a short period of time and went into industry.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, exactly what you're saying there, it brought me back.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that advisory piece, the the um the challenges, the um solving problems.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really it is an exciting profession.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um let me pivot a little bit now.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So so so you're you you're uh originally from the UK, you've been in the states for what about how many years?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: A decade, 10 years.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: A decade, 10.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um talk to me a little bit about global working.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what have you learned from maybe training in the UK, working in the UK to working in in the states?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a lot that you need to adapt to culturally, or do you think we are really kind of merging into one big, one big global community?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to say we're merging into one big global community.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the reasons why we chose the states to come to versus another country was the fact that they spoke English.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it would be really easy to adapt to.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's it's very similar.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you look at New York as an example in London, very similar um communities, you know, very diverse, very financial services driven, but still to me, I think that we speak two different languages, um, not just when we say coffee versus coffee, but um the culture and and the way that Americans do things is still a little bit different to the UK.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, as we're continuing to see um more um more cross-border interactions, more cross-border business, um, it's it is becoming a little bit more of a global economy, but it's it's an exciting time.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of my roles that I do here at CLA is to work with our global businesses, those who are foreign-owned, um, who have or are looking to set up shop here in the States.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, one of the biggest things is the culture piece and um how different it can be.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that, you know, not to say that it's the US versus everywhere else in the world because it's also state by state.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find different tax rules, you'll have different compliance pieces, um, you know, the the people element is different, the cultures are different depending on the state you're in.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really quite, you know, the the economy overall in the US is very diverse.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's something that I think, you know, we we we shouldn't uh we shouldn't ignore.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that one is right and one is wrong.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that there is differences and we need to be able to best um best navigate those differences.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you've you've you're obviously living the dream out there.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're loving it, you haven't come back anyway.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: For now, yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had our son out here um and just decided that we both my husband and I both went through the UK school system and had a phenomenal time, but we haven't lived through the US system, so we're kind of doing it through his eyes right now.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, for as long as he's happy and he's enjoying it, we'll be here.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, if at one point he says, Hey, I actually feel like I have a connection to the UK and I want to go explore living there, you know, I'm driven by my son, wherever he wants to be.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's lovely.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're kind of coming coming towards the end.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what of the chat?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: What I'd love to know is so you've you've done so much as a firm and obviously as as a principal in driving the AI journey.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see it going?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was interesting.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: You talked there.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the stats you said was that potentially at the moment you need 40 hours of CPD, but that could raise to 120.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, do you see that kind of impact that AI might have being being threesome, being so so effective, I don't know, so influential in what we do.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where does it end?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is it gonna take our jobs?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what everyone's worried about?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a um saying here in CLA that CLA will AI will take your jobs to a whole new level.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Your jobs now do not look the same as what they're gonna be in five years.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: No one really knows what that's gonna look like, but I think that we can embrace it and you know, look for what else can I do?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: If I get this time back, how else can I can I serve clients?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: How else can I, you know, be more present in the home place?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that's really gonna create this fulfilling life?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're still trying to figure it out, but we are excited about it here.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's lovely.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, say that saying again AI will take your job to a whole new level.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's the one.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what I also like is the way that you've you've you've just absolutely weaved in there that it might actually give you more time for a bit of uh bit of life and and just get the last work life.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't want that exactly?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Nicola, thank you so much.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: The positivity is oozing from you.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're an absolute um ad for the profession and and for what the the profession can can bring to you.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um best of luck whether you go come back to the UK, whatever your son may do.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and one parting word from you, what would be your advice to young, young, not even young, any anyone who's potentially thinking of doing accountancy or chartered accountancy?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, I mean, for me, and also I should plug that my husband is an accountant too, it has been the best choice that we ever made.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, learning how a business operates, the in and out of financials, you know, how tax systems regulations change.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it can provide so many, you know, opens so many doors for individuals to go into, um, either staying within the profession or looking for something after.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I would 10 out of 10 do it again.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that endorsement, and thank you for being such a great ambassador for the profession and a difference maker.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time tonight.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you to everybody who has stayed to the end of this um episode.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what a positive one we had there.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I can't wait to see you for the next one.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.