Latest / The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel / Brewers Association Economist Matt Gacioch: 2025 Craft Beer Trends & Industry Data | Episode 91

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Brewers Association Economist Matt Gacioch: 2025 Craft Beer Trends & Industry Data | Episode 91 · The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel

0:34
Hey, welcome back to the Brewery Underground podcast.
0:37
Steve Sullivan here along with Scott Tehran.
0:40
And today, Scott, you know, we're kicking off something a
0:43
little bit different. We love talking about breweries
0:46
and beer. Now today we're going to get
0:49
into maybe some of the stats of beer.
0:51
Yes, yes, it's going to be. It's going to be a whole lot of
0:54
fun. You know, we goof off on this
0:56
thing a lot, but sometimes we try to bring a little education
0:58
to people every once in a while. Every once in a while.
1:01
It's not really us doing it. It's our guest, yes, but we try
1:04
to educate the people wherever we can.
1:06
So I think we've got a really good guest today to do that.
1:08
What do you think? We do, and I'm going to say his
1:10
name now because it's top of mind because he just told us how
1:13
to pronounce his last name. But I'm going to get this right.
1:16
I'm hoping I'm not going to screw it up from the Brewers
1:19
Association. He is their staff economist.
1:22
He's a writer. There he is.
1:23
Matt Gaseoch. Matt, did I get it right?
1:26
You nailed it, Steve. That was beautiful poetry.
1:30
That is awesome. We've been practice for the last
1:32
20 seconds or so. I should have opened my beer to
1:37
start with. Yeah, open your beer because I
1:39
have already opened up my beer. Matt, did you bring up beer to
1:43
this podcast today, Sir? I wish I did.
1:47
Yeah, I have a toddler and a newborn at home, and so if I if
1:52
I have a beer at 3:00 PM, I'm going to be napping before we're
1:55
done recording. Well, Matt, welcome.
1:57
This is really a big deal for us to have you on.
1:59
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here and and chat with you guys and
2:03
and we could still goof off with stats.
2:04
I want to make that clear though, just cuz they're numbers
2:07
doesn't mean it's all buttoned up and and serious all the time.
2:10
Cool. That's cool because it's a lot
2:11
of fun. It's beer, right?
2:12
It's craft beer. We have fun with that.
2:14
This crap beer, this crap Scott, you know, I'm going to take the
2:17
lead here on what I'm drinking on this podcast.
2:20
So, you know, it is Oktoberfest season.
2:22
Now. I have not had this version of
2:24
Oktoberfest. This is from Good People Brewing
2:27
Company. It is their traditional festival
2:30
beer, Oktoberfest, as they like to say so.
2:33
Fair and go. I like the can.
2:34
Of ice. Cheers.
2:36
He already crushed it a little bit.
2:37
You must. Have really crushed it with my
2:39
fingers there. Well, I've got 1 and I picked
2:42
this up yesterday from burial because, you know, I love
2:46
burial. It is called wax poetic.
2:48
Until we surf the fires. Figure out what that means.
2:50
I don't know, but I'm sure it's a delicious beer.
2:52
So cheers fellas. Cheers.
2:54
Cheers. Yeah, well, we're going to get
2:57
into it right away with you, Matt.
2:58
Let's first start off with the usual question you may get to
3:01
every once in a while. So you're a writer with the
3:03
Brewers Association. Talk to people who are not
3:07
familiar with What is the Brewers Association?
3:09
Yeah, absolutely. So Brewers Association is the
3:13
not-for-profit trade group that supports small and independent
3:17
breweries throughout the country and increasingly throughout the
3:20
world. Our kind of mission is to
3:23
promote and protect these small and independent breweries, their
3:27
beers, and then the whole community of craft beer
3:30
drinkers. And so, you know, our work looks
3:33
a lot of different ways, but my role is the staff economist is
3:38
that I do a fair amount of writing, getting content out,
3:43
helping, helping our members, small breweries understand the
3:47
landscape within the craft beer market year more broadly within
3:53
beverage alcohol. And then, and then even beyond
3:56
kind of understanding larger consumer trends as well that
4:00
that can influence the way that they're, they're making
4:03
strategic decisions for their breweries.
4:04
But yeah, what I'm, I'm just one of a very, very impressive group
4:09
of people. I'm, I'm the least impressive.
4:11
But we've got our government affairs team that's, that's
4:14
doing great work at the federal and state level.
4:17
We've got our education teams that are getting resources on
4:21
the brewing side and the business side.
4:23
We we've got our events team put on a couple great events per
4:26
year, each year. So a lot of moving parts.
4:29
But at the end of the day, we're here to serve our our members,
4:34
these small and independent Brewers.
4:35
Needless to say though, with your job, you keep pretty busy.
4:39
That it feels that way a lot of times and not just on this short
4:42
week. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's really
4:45
dynamic and it's, it's really fun work for a, for a
4:48
quantitative minded beer nerd. It's like pretty much a dream
4:51
job, you know? Yeah, without getting too much
4:55
into it, you know, I'm administering surveys, working
4:58
with different big data sets, trying to tease out some useful
5:02
insights from from these data sets.
5:04
And then, as you alluded to earlier, I try to, you know,
5:07
writing and get some of that content out in a way that's
5:10
engaging to an audience. That's not always, you know, as
5:15
as much of A numerophile as I am.
5:17
You know, folks, folks who I have one of my Co workers, I
5:21
won't mention who, who said who's sent me an e-mail last
5:24
week that was like, they promised me there would be no
5:26
math. And then, you know, it's trying
5:28
to trying to bring things to him as well as some of our members
5:32
who you know, that might not be what they're most familiar with,
5:36
most comfortable with, but but get them information in a useful
5:39
way. Is that your life though?
5:42
Just math, like data just constantly coming in and trying
5:45
to process it and get it back out, deciphering.
5:48
In an ideal world, it would all be numbers and numbers in beer
5:52
that those would be the two. But but no, as I mentioned, you
5:55
know, I, I do spend a lot of time, I spend a lot of time in
5:58
spreadsheets and databases. But a big piece of it is, is not
6:01
just kind of understanding what the numbers mean in a vacuum,
6:04
but but trying to understand the economic and social context
6:08
around why we're seeing some of the numbers that we are.
6:11
So, yeah, in addition to to data, I also spend a lot of my
6:15
time kind of reading through what's, you know, what's
6:18
happening in the larger economy, what's happening in terms of
6:21
consumer behavior and consumer sentiment and all these other
6:24
factors that that are some of the drivers of why we're seeing
6:28
a production volume trends and brewery number trends the way
6:33
that we are seeing them over the past couple years.
6:35
An example of what you just talked about and how you decide
6:37
you, you released an article on July 23rd, which was the 2025
6:42
mid year report. And I was reading it and I was
6:44
like, I know there's a lot of information for you to be able
6:46
to decipher it and put it out so that we can read it and make
6:49
sense of it is pretty impressive.
6:50
Can you talk about that report a little bit and kind of give us
6:53
maybe the state of the State of the Union?
6:55
Yeah, absolutely. So, so our mid year production
6:59
survey is is a smaller endeavor than our end of year production
7:04
survey that we do in Q1. Looking back at the at the past
7:07
year in that big one is called the beer industry production
7:11
survey. We're either directly receiving
7:14
or estimating the production of every single brewery in the
7:17
country on an individual basis so that we can understand large
7:22
trends as well as more granular trends within brewery type, then
7:27
region, then state things like that.
7:29
Our our mid year survey is essentially it's as it's as I
7:34
mentioned, a smaller endeavor that we we are doing more
7:38
estimating and more getting a sense of directionality and
7:42
order of magnitude of things rather than kind of making this
7:46
line in the sand of this is this is you know what the trend was
7:50
in the previous year. And So what we found in this
7:54
year's mid year survey was a an estimated reduction in number of
8:00
breweries by about 1% net. So not saying that there's no
8:04
breweries opening was that brewery closures were outpacing
8:08
brewery openings by about one percentage point.
8:11
And we also estimated about a 5% decline in the volume of beer
8:19
produced by craft Brewers in the first half of 2025 compared to
8:24
that same period a year earlier. And just for context, comparing
8:29
that to those 2/20/24 numbers, the brewery opening enclosure
8:35
differential is almost exactly in line with what we saw in
8:38
2024. So not much of A change there.
8:41
And the production volume is about one percentage point more
8:46
contraction than we saw in 2024 where it was about -4% in terms
8:52
of volume. There's all kinds of complexity
8:55
baked into those numbers as well.
8:57
You know, I, I think I wouldn't be surprised if we touch at some
9:00
point on, on kind of beyond beer products in this conversation,
9:03
but the, some of the beer volume reduction, some of that has been
9:10
just transferred to other product production.
9:12
So it's not saying, you know, it's, it's that capacity is just
9:16
unused. It's just, it's just kind of
9:17
transferring. So I don't know, I just threw a
9:19
bunch of numbers at you, but that those are kind of the the
9:22
high level overviews of what we're seeing at at this point in
9:27
2025. Well, the last thing that you
9:29
touched on is something, you know, we've been doing our
9:31
podcast here for about two years.
9:33
And the last thing you really touched on is something that we
9:36
have seen here in Nashville is that it's not just about craft
9:40
beer and breweries anymore that they've expanded into other
9:44
offerings. Can you go into detail a little
9:46
bit more of what you're seeing as well?
9:49
Yeah, absolutely. You know, craft Brewers from
9:52
from the beginning have been in an innovative bunch and an
9:56
adaptable bunch and, you know, kind of more nimble than some of
10:00
the larger players in the beer space.
10:02
And that innovation for a long time was, you know, kind of
10:06
pushing the boundaries of styles and and you know, what you're
10:09
adding to your beers and things like that.
10:10
And, and it's not like that's going away, but we're seeing
10:13
more and more expansion into beyond beer products.
10:16
You know, a natural, a natural one for a lot of Brewers is non
10:20
alcohol beer products. You know that right now craft
10:23
has and kind of an oversized share of NA volume sales
10:30
compared to just, you know, all beer products.
10:33
But then you know this this is going to depend state to state
10:37
where depending on how you know, regulations on on what they're
10:40
able to get licensed for. But a lot of breweries are also
10:42
expanding into ciders and some will get into craft spirits or
10:47
ready to drink canned cocktails or, you know, a lot many are in
10:51
the seltzer game already. And so all of these are kind of
10:54
new opportunities to meet different consumers than kind of
10:59
the core craft beer consumer. And so in 2024, we estimated
11:05
that about one in every four craft breweries across the
11:09
country is producing at least some of a beyond beer product.
11:13
And so maybe it sounds like maybe you're seeing that in
11:17
Nashville as well? Yeah, you've got and we've
11:19
talked about it many times. You got, it seems like these
11:21
breweries got to have some diversity across the board.
11:23
You got to have something for everyone.
11:24
In these days it's what could be wine or non alcoholic stuff or a
11:28
seltzer or something for everyone to just to keep keep
11:31
coming. Yeah, yeah.
11:32
And and if you think about it, you know, if you have a you're
11:35
kind of like die hard craft beer consumer, a lot of times they
11:38
have friends that are family. And you know, if they're if
11:41
they're going to be able to bring their group of people into
11:44
your brewery, you got to have something that'll appeal to to
11:48
everyone in that group, right. It's not, it's not just the
11:52
occasion of going out with your your beer buddies.
11:55
It's now, you know, thinking about ways to engage other kind
12:00
of going out occasions for a craft beer drinker and their
12:04
social group. As a guy that writes about this,
12:07
are you really surprised and maybe some of the brewery owners
12:10
that you talked to across the country, are they really
12:13
surprised? Do you think about how much non
12:16
alcohol beer has taken off? You know it.
12:19
I think it's a mix of, of maybe some surprise in there, but it's
12:23
more kind of, you know, the folks that have gotten into NA
12:27
are ones that just understand that that is, has been a shift
12:31
in consumer demand there. You know, I, I think there's a
12:35
lot of headlines based off of the data, some of which are
12:37
overblown, but, but we do know that some of the younger legal
12:41
drinking age adults are less prone to consume many alcoholic
12:46
products and sort of one evening or one outing or things like
12:50
that. And so having the option where
12:52
you know, someone can make the decision and it's not, it's not
12:56
just the younger consumers, it's across the board, but a consumer
13:00
can make the decision. Hey, I want to be out.
13:02
I want to be tasting a great product.
13:05
I want to be in this social environment, interacting with my
13:08
friends and the community, but I don't necessarily want to feel
13:13
impaired or feel at all out of control.
13:15
And so that's that's where a lot of this growth in NA is coming
13:20
from. It is really consumer.
13:22
Driven do you yourself get to visit many breweries just to
13:26
kind of get out there and you know, and put your feet to the
13:28
ground and see some of the results like you're getting
13:31
data, but to to see it kind of in the wild, you get to do that.
13:34
You know, I less, less than I would like in the normal nine to
13:38
five of the weekday, but fortunately, you know, I get out
13:42
to plenty, you know, still in the evenings and weekends and
13:45
things like that. And one of the things that I
13:47
personally love that I I do a little bit of traveling for work
13:51
to give presentations at different conferences and things
13:54
like that. But I always love that sort of
13:56
exploration phase where it's getting out and seeing, you
14:00
know, what the beer board looks like, what the sort of space
14:05
looks like, how companies are engaging with their customers,
14:09
what their hospitality models are.
14:11
And yeah. And just, I mean, you all know
14:13
because you, you on this from this podcast, but, you know,
14:17
beer, beer people are some of the best people in the world.
14:19
So it's just so much fun that just sit and, you know, over a
14:23
pint and swap stories. And, and so, yeah, that's yeah.
14:26
I, I wish it there was more of my like, you know, working hours
14:31
that took place in breweries. But you know, alas, alas.
14:36
Still get the work done to take that data, we have to get it out
14:40
to the people, right, right. Exactly.
14:43
Can we talk about tariffs for a minute?
14:46
Sure. Within the craft beer world and
14:49
I, from what I know, aluminum's probably the biggest thing right
14:52
now. And maybe there's maybe there's
14:53
more than that, maybe you can speak to that.
14:54
But, you know, is the brewery's taking a hit because of these
14:57
tariffs? So the answer to that is yes.
15:01
And the question, the follow up question is to what extent those
15:04
are being felt right now And right as of as of right now,
15:08
we're still expecting sort of those impacts to continue to
15:13
grow. I guess I'll, I'll start with
15:15
aluminum because it is it is very front of mind.
15:18
You know there we're here talking on September 3rd.
15:21
There's so much, there's so much that changes kind of week to
15:25
week, month to month. But right now there is
15:30
conversation and it's going to it's ultimately going to get up
15:33
to the Supreme Court about whether some of the tariffs are
15:36
legal, mostly focused on the reciprocal tariffs, which
15:41
aluminum is not actually part of that that bucket.
15:44
So this is this is one that we expected to see kind of the
15:48
impact of moving forward irrespective of that other
15:51
ruling. But you know, the reality is
15:54
that that tariffs bring up the overall price of the commodity.
15:59
And so there are some Brewers who have longer term contracts
16:05
that are are set and and they haven't seen a price hike yet.
16:09
But we'd expect those folks when contracts come up for renewal
16:13
that would see that that increased price at that point.
16:18
You know, one of the other areas that we're seeing sort of
16:20
impacts on tariffs and this is less homogeneously across the
16:24
industry is for folks who are bringing in equipment from
16:29
overseas. And a lot of the breweries who
16:31
are, you know, getting new tanks or, you know, a new canning
16:35
line, a lot of a lot of these are coming from overseas.
16:38
And so they're needing to, you know, run the run the math and,
16:42
and see if it still makes sense to make those investments, but
16:46
based off of the, the increase in in price that come associated
16:50
with the tariffs. So those are some of the main
16:52
areas that we're seeing. And, and, you know, just putting
16:54
this in larger economic context, the fact that inflation has
17:00
impacted breweries the way that it's impacted a lot of consumers
17:04
as well. And so when I tracked this over
17:07
the past five ish years, we see that the overall cost, even pre
17:11
tariff, the cost of inputs to run a brewery and the to pay the
17:16
labor to run a brewery have outpaced the price of beer
17:20
increases. Not not saying that the price of
17:23
beer has an increase. I'm sure any, anyone who listens
17:25
to this and you know, it's sitting there with their own
17:27
beer, remember remembers when beer was X price.
17:31
But the reality is that the input cost of running these
17:37
brewery manufacturing businesses have gone up faster than that
17:42
price of beer, which just means, you know, pretty simple math on
17:46
that one is, is tightening margins for for these
17:50
businesses. Do you do you see that that
17:52
impacts more of the small business owner, brewery owner
17:56
more than the larger ones because maybe they didn't budget
17:58
for these kinds of things? Sure.
18:00
Yeah. I mean, there, there's always
18:02
going to be variability. You know, I was on a call
18:04
earlier today with a couple, a couple big and very big craft
18:09
Brewers that are, are certainly, you know, feeling this.
18:12
No one in your annual planning, you know, makes plans for some
18:17
of the jumps that we've that we've seen in some material
18:20
costs and things like that over time.
18:22
So, so, yeah. But you know, at the same time,
18:26
a bigger company, a more established brand might have
18:29
more opportunities to, to venture into new products, you
18:33
know, explore other markets, things like that, that a smaller
18:37
brewery wouldn't. And so, yeah, I, I think
18:40
generally the industry is, is feeling the pain and, and it
18:45
doesn't necessarily matter too much whether you're very small
18:50
or larger. I will say that, you know, one
18:52
of the things that I'm seeing in the, in the data is so I'll back
18:56
up. The Brewers Association breaks
18:58
breweries into craft breweries into 4 main types, tap rooms and
19:02
brew pubs, which are kind of on site focused models.
19:06
The brew pub is the one that has more of a significant food menu
19:10
than a tap room. And then the other two are micro
19:13
and a microbrewery and regional. And these are distribution
19:17
focused breweries. And what I'm seeing in the data
19:19
is that the microbreweries, so the smaller of the distribution
19:24
focused are the ones that are really kind of getting hit the
19:27
hardest right now. You know, we're not just on the
19:31
cost of doing business, but the reality that many wholesalers
19:35
and retailers are in a period of rationalization or kind of
19:39
cutting down their portfolio to have sort of less diversity of
19:43
product on the shelves. And a lot of times it's going to
19:46
be those smaller distributing breweries that are some of the
19:49
first to be to be cut from a, a retail shelf.
19:52
And so, yeah, I, I think, you know, it's not not kind of
19:57
evenly spread throughout the industry.
19:59
You know, and another point on this, hopefully not rambling too
20:03
much here, but is the fact that brew pubs are brew pubs are
20:07
performing somewhat better than tap rooms.
20:09
So the so the breweries where food is kind of a more central
20:14
port part of the business model, some of the those businesses are
20:19
performing better over the past couple years than tap rooms
20:22
where it's, you know, just just the beer.
20:25
So yeah, there's there's a lot of nuance kind of within these
20:29
headline numbers that I was mentioning earlier.
20:31
Yeah, it's interesting because I, I in my mind when I'm and you
20:35
kind of you need a gloss over it.
20:36
You actually said a lot of it was one of the big things you
20:39
said was that maybe it's making them rethink to some of the
20:44
offerings that they're putting out there, saying, OK, we're
20:47
going to stick to more of a core brand rather than do a lot of
20:50
different specialty beers because of all these changes
20:53
going on. Sure.
20:53
Yeah, if and you know, we're definitely, definitely expecting
20:57
to see that in the in the off premise in particular where
21:01
where, you know, retailers and wholesalers are are saying I'm
21:05
I'm having fewer beer products. You know, at the same time, I
21:10
haven't seen any indication, whether in the data or
21:12
anecdotally that the on site model is moving away from
21:16
variety. Beer consumers, especially if
21:19
they go to their local bottle shop and can't get the variety
21:22
that they have come to expect in the previous decades.
21:26
They're going to want to go in and get something a little bit
21:29
outlandish and a little bit kind of off the wall or even less.
21:32
So, you know, just some styles that might not, that might not
21:35
sell as well in a convenience store, you know, they want to be
21:39
be able to get those somewhere. And so going on site to
21:42
breweries is is kind of where that is available to them at
21:45
this point. That sounds like you and I.
21:48
It, it is, it's absolutely is. And one of the things we've
21:51
discovered too, and talking to, to to breweries and regional
21:53
breweries and national breweries is a lot of them have pulled
21:55
back their distribution to, to, to your point and, and kind of
21:58
keep it local or keep it in state or keep it in the tap
22:00
room. You know, bigger breweries,
22:02
Steve and I have talked about, we don't get them here anymore.
22:05
And it's because they kind of pulled back that distribution,
22:07
which which sucks, but it helps them certainly.
22:11
Sure, it it helps maintain maintain the velocity off the
22:14
shelves and out of the taps. It like local bars and
22:18
restaurants and things like that.
22:19
Beer is a perishable product. You can't just have it on the
22:22
shelf forever. And so if you're better able to
22:25
serve fewer markets and you're the number 5 hazy IPA in your
22:31
market and the number 15 the state next door, a lot of times
22:34
it's going to make more business sense to really focus on your
22:38
your home state and and devote less resources and time to that
22:44
state next door. One of the reasons that prompted
22:46
us to reach out to you guys was in April you guys released the
22:50
Brewers Association, reports 2024 US Craft Brewing Industry
22:54
Figure. So basically you listed the top,
22:57
what was it, 50 craft breweries in the country.
23:00
And Steve and I had a podcast about this and we started
23:03
talking about these and there's some really big breweries on
23:05
this list, but they're still craft breweries, right?
23:09
So what kind of constitutes, and I know what's in here, but what
23:11
kind of constitutes what a craft brewery is?
23:13
And I'll give a couple examples. Yingling and Boston Beer Company
23:16
are one and two Sierra Nevada, three really big breweries.
23:19
So, but they're still craft breweries.
23:21
What why are they still craft breweries?
23:22
What's that definition? Sure.
23:24
So they so the definition of craft that that we have at the
23:29
Brewers Association, we had to kind of set the line in the sand
23:33
somewhere. And so it's producing less than
23:35
6,000,000 barrels annually. And so all of those that you
23:38
listed still fit under that threshold.
23:42
You know, there are breweries that are, you know, that are
23:46
larger than that and that and so that's that's our line for small
23:51
independent means that the brewery does not have more than
23:55
25% ownership by a non craft brewery.
23:59
So, you know, there's a lot of examples as especially in the
24:03
20s where there were craft brands that were acquired by
24:06
some of the largest Brewers or the largest Brewer in the in the
24:10
country and world and those were no longer considered craft well
24:15
under the ownership of that of that parent company.
24:18
And so and so, yeah, so that's that's kind of how we set the
24:23
definition of small because we want to get really capture the
24:26
spirit of small and independent. Yeah, it's it's really cool.
24:30
Yet like I said, we had a whole episode about it because we got
24:32
into the weeds on it. So I go, wow, that's cool,
24:34
that's cool. And you know, and then seeing
24:35
some of these, the names, we didn't know what they were like
24:39
we knew who Boston Beer Company was, but there were some that
24:42
were like Tilray beer brands. I didn't know who that was as a
24:46
whole. Then you dive into and there's
24:47
other brands that make that up, right?
24:49
It's really interesting list. We loved it.
24:51
Great, great. Well, I'm I'm glad.
24:53
Yeah. That's the, that's, that's the
24:55
output from that big annual survey that I was talking about
24:59
that we do it in Q1 and as best as I can as a one man econ and
25:05
stats team, try to get it out early in, in Q2 as I can.
25:08
But but yeah, I'm glad you found it interesting.
25:11
And, and yeah, it's, it definitely, you know, tells
25:14
tells this moment in time of, you know, what's happening in
25:17
the top 50 as well as as the whole industry.
25:20
Well, and you helped us too because real quick and we
25:23
started diving into this, it gave us more people to kind of
25:26
reach out to for further episodes too.
25:28
Or like, OK, here's the list. All right, let's start reaching
25:30
out to some of these people. So awesome.
25:32
Anyway, sorry Steve. You're fine.
25:34
No, I was going to say because even the top dogs out there, the
25:37
top breweries, they're impacted by all of these changes that
25:41
you're talking about, whether there's other crappier options.
25:44
But you had mentioned a few minutes ago and it's, and again,
25:47
it's something that we see all the time too.
25:49
Five years ago maybe you didn't see it as much.
25:51
Now there's a lot more food options and a lot of breweries
25:55
too, because that's become a really important thing as part
25:58
of the brewery experience. Yeah, So, you know, and it's
26:00
food is part of it, but I, I kind of lumped this into the
26:03
innovation bucket of hospitality experience.
26:07
You know, certainly food is, is a big piece of that for a lot of
26:11
breweries. I was just back in like I grew
26:14
up in Western New York. I was just back visiting my
26:16
family and went to an amazing brew pub where, you know, as I
26:20
was just looking around, there were as many people eat just
26:23
there for the food As for the food and the beer.
26:25
I I was, you know, market research was doing both, but I
26:31
but I love it yeah you know, food.
26:34
Not every brewery is going to a full kitchen is it is going to
26:37
make sense for every brewery. But we're starting to see more
26:41
in terms of thinking about again, ways to draw people into
26:45
the brewery's, you know, a lot of kind of activities that we
26:49
didn't necessarily see before. For a while there would be
26:52
cornhole and, you know, maybe darts or something simple like
26:56
that. But more and more I've know a
26:58
couple breweries that have put in pickleball courts, you know,
27:01
full pickleball courts. There's I know what at least one
27:05
in North Carolina that has sand volleyball courts and a disc
27:09
golf course. There's one out here right near
27:11
me in Colorado with a mini golf course.
27:15
So it's, it's kind of like thinking of other, other reasons
27:18
for folks to come visit. And you know what, all those
27:22
people after getting off the pickleball and volleyball court,
27:25
a lot of those folks are, are sticking around for a beer.
27:27
And so it's it's kind of reimagining the way that
27:32
consumers are interacting with with a space and for for a long
27:36
time, breweries could be successful with just having four
27:40
walls and a solid tap list. While that that's still out
27:45
there, what I'm seeing in 2025 is that it's the breweries that
27:51
are kind of reimagining how to connect with target audiences
27:56
through activities, through food, through programming.
27:59
You know that those are the ones that are are finding a way to
28:01
grow even in a overall time of decline.
28:06
There's a brewery here in Nashville called East Nashville
28:08
Beer. Works.
28:09
And they opened up a second location last year.
28:12
It's actually a little bit away from Nashville.
28:14
It's in a different county and they're about to have their one
28:17
year anniversary. We're going to be going there
28:19
and doing it, doing a podcast from their location.
28:22
They've expanded so much where as you said, they have some of
28:25
the activities that you talked about, but they also they have a
28:28
dog park there. Yeah, yeah.
28:31
So you go upstairs and there's like this big mezzanine where
28:34
you can look down and you can see dogs running around with the
28:36
kids and everything else. And they have also gotten it
28:39
where it's a, it's a family friendly place down on the 1st
28:43
floor, but on the 2nd floor you have to be accompanied by adult.
28:46
I think it's like 15 years old and up.
28:49
So they have really given that a lot of thought of the whole
28:54
brewery experience and the whole experience in general of
28:57
bringing people in there. Yeah, absolutely.
28:59
At first I thought you were saying that the dog has to be 15
29:02
years older more. And I was like, and I was like,
29:05
man, this is going to be a small dog park.
29:07
I guess that's funny. OK.
29:09
They run around, but yeah, it's kind of sit still and not a lot
29:12
of activity. Makes more sense.
29:14
That's why, yeah. The dog, yeah.
29:15
The kids, yeah. That's great.
29:18
You mentioned at the beginning possibly like globally, you
29:21
talked about the Brewers Association in globally.
29:23
Are there chapters around the world?
29:25
Are there countries doing their own thing or how does that work?
29:28
So there are not chapters globally, but we, you know, we
29:32
try to obviously the the US based craft beer industry is one
29:39
of the leaders, if not the leader in the world in terms of
29:43
new product innovation, things like that.
29:45
Definitely not to step on toes for some amazing beer traditions
29:48
throughout throughout the world. But in terms of kind of what we
29:51
think of it as modern day craft, a lot of a lot of that started
29:55
here. And so many of our events are
29:57
craft Brewers conference that we hold each year.
30:00
We always have a good number of attendees from all all over
30:04
Europe, South America, Australia that we have a folks from all
30:09
over participate there. And then then we also at the BA
30:13
have our export development program, which is a program
30:17
where we're helping American Brewers who are trying to expand
30:23
into different new markets overseas.
30:26
And so there are there the, the guy with the coolest travel
30:31
schedule on our staff, he's our export development program
30:36
manager director. And yeah, there are events in
30:40
Korea and Sweden and Argentina and a lot of these where it's
30:46
where it's an opportunity for breweries that are looking to
30:50
expand into those markets to meet with beer buyers face to
30:53
face, a sample the products engage with, engage with
30:56
consumers in those markets so that they could understand what
31:00
flavor profiles resonate, etc. So yeah, that's a very a very
31:05
cool program that kind of helps expand the reach of American
31:09
craft beer globally. That's amazing.
31:12
CBC has been here before in Nashville twice that I know of.
31:16
I got I got my I. I have this up that you can't
31:18
read it, it's too small. But right behind me is my
31:21
attacker for CBC speaker in 2023.
31:24
Where? Which was in Nashville.
31:26
Nice. That's why we're shooting the
31:28
guitar pick here. Oh, that's good.
31:30
It makes perfect sense. When are you coming back to
31:32
Nashville? Because it's a huge event and it
31:34
gets, it gets bigger every time it comes in.
31:36
I'm sure that it's that way for every city.
31:38
Yeah, yeah. So we were just in Indianapolis
31:42
this year. Next year we're heading off to
31:43
Philly. It's unfortunately outside my
31:46
wheelhouse. That's our wonderful events team
31:49
who does it. But I, I sincerely hope that the
31:52
next time we're in Nashville, it's also during an epic Taylor
31:56
Swift concert, because that's what it was in 2023.
31:59
And there was like a, a biblical storm that happened at the same
32:03
time. And so the, the whole town was
32:05
run over by craft Brewers and Swifties.
32:08
And it was, it was, it was fun. It was a party.
32:12
Did you go to go to the game or did you go to the concert that
32:14
night that it rained and she kept playing till like 2 or 3:00
32:18
in the morning? Because I so I know somebody
32:19
that was at that concert. Yeah, I, I didn't go and I, I,
32:23
so that was supposed to be the timing of our outdoor welcome
32:27
reception. Yeah.
32:30
So no, it was, it was just a bunch of waterlogged Brewers
32:35
walking around. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't
32:38
didn't make it. But yeah, it was either people
32:40
with beer T-shirts or sequins. That's like the only people I
32:44
saw out. Well, well, can we talk about,
32:49
do you remember any of the breweries that you went to here
32:52
in Nashville, Any anyone that stood out though that you got to
32:55
go to? I don't, I wish, I wish I could
32:59
have that recall recall off the top of my head.
33:02
But you know, CBC is kind of an all hands on deck for the BA
33:06
staff as you can imagine. It's it's, you know, was
33:09
unfortunately running around working more than more than
33:12
getting out. But but yeah, I mean, I do.
33:14
I do know that when, whenever I'm in a place like Nashville,
33:18
whenever I, you know, snuck out to get some hot chicken in
33:21
between things, I always make sure that I, I got something
33:23
local on tap to go along with it.
33:25
Nice. The great thing about CBC, not
33:27
just the events you guys put on and the stuff you're doing, the
33:30
influx of distribution into the into the town that you don't
33:35
normally get has happened a couple of times.
33:37
Like we get burial now, but there were lines of distribution
33:40
that had opened up just because of that event that we weren't
33:43
getting before. Three Floyds was one of those.
33:45
Burial was one of those. And it's like, that is so cool.
33:49
And you go to a brewery and they'll have their stuff and
33:51
they'll have a bunch of guest taps too at the same time, just
33:53
because of CBC. So it's a really cool thing.
33:56
We just go around town randomly and just seeing stuff.
33:58
Yeah, that's that's awesome. And I know that I know that the
34:02
industry loves it's a a very collaborative industry and and
34:05
one where their hospitality is kind of at the core.
34:09
And so when local breweries can showcase their spaces and their
34:12
products and hold of the little side events or after hours
34:16
events at their place, it's so amazing to see that kind of
34:20
melding of our craft beer community.
34:22
Yeah, people that might never get together, just
34:25
geographically all come together in one place and it's so cool to
34:28
see. Yeah.
34:29
And if it benefits the local consumers like let let's have
34:33
more to that too. Oh yeah, we went just like I
34:35
remember going to fail a forest because they had some brand new
34:37
burial on tap. Like like you know, we tap take
34:40
over burial because OK, we're going to fail a forest and
34:43
drinking. So I reference burial a lot.
34:46
Sorry. It's my favorite.
34:48
Hey, how do you guys feel about Untapped?
34:51
You guys have any opinion about the Untapped app?
34:55
I don't know that would apply to you guys in any way, but you
34:58
guys cross paths in any way. I feel like, yes, there are, you
35:02
know, instances where folks talk.
35:04
I don't, I don't talk, you know, directly with the, the untapped
35:07
folks that often I know that we have used, we've partnered with
35:11
them because they have some data that, you know, is unique,
35:14
understanding sort of what, what people are drinking, how they're
35:17
rating things in a special way. You know, it's a it's, it's a
35:21
data source that doesn't exist elsewhere.
35:24
So is very cool in that regard. But yeah, I can't, I can't speak
35:29
to too much, too much overlap in kind of the day-to-day.
35:33
Yeah, no worries. I was just I can't think about
35:35
is there any overlap there or crossover that you guys might
35:37
have? But it's it's it's a subject we
35:40
come it comes up a lot on this podcast it.
35:42
Does it does, but you you mentioned like the data of beer.
35:46
What are you seeing based on your data of what are some of
35:50
the beer styles that are really becoming more consistently
35:54
popular either now or maybe again at breweries across the
35:58
country? Yeah.
35:59
So I looked at this most recently a few months ago and
36:03
you won't be surprised to know that as a group Ipas are
36:07
dominant and sort of craft in in craft volume sales.
36:12
That's not changing and actually the kind of year over year Ipas
36:17
continue to continue to gain share of craft sales and that's
36:22
inclusive of your West Coast IP as your hazy IP as session IP as
36:26
all of that is kind of clumped together.
36:29
But then one of the other style groupings that is seen some
36:33
growth is in craft loggers, which you might see more of
36:37
that, you know, kind of locally as well.
36:39
I most most geographies that I get to and get out to breweries,
36:45
I'm I'm seeing kind of more and more of the craft loggers out.
36:48
Certainly we were speaking earlier Nas lots of lots of
36:53
growth there. But yeah, I don't know.
36:55
You mentioned like what's what's new or what's coming back.
36:58
I was actually just, you know, kind of taking a high level
37:02
view, listening to a story yesterday about how Gen.
37:07
Z is is consuming through nostalgia even for like a time
37:12
that they next necessarily weren't even born yet.
37:14
But there's kind of like this throwback and that nostalgia is
37:19
important in consumer buying patterns right now.
37:22
And you know, when I think, you know, I think back to the fact
37:25
that for a long time, you know, in the early 2000s, Amber rails
37:30
were kind of everywhere. And I'm, I'm just waiting to see
37:33
if, if that is, you know, is that is that going to come right
37:37
back around and and be kind of a gateway into craft for a new
37:41
generation of, of drinkers? But you know, to, to this point,
37:45
any of those kind of retro, retro styles.
37:48
I'm using air quotes for audio listeners here.
37:52
You know, Amber, Amber L never went away.
37:54
It's it's still that here, but there's a we there's nothing to
37:59
show that there's any one of those that's kind of like
38:02
skyrocketing or, or kind of like set to skyrocket at this moment.
38:06
But I wouldn't be surprised if we do see some of those more
38:12
kind of lesser produced styles coming back in, in future years.
38:17
You talked about nostalgia. One of the beers that I think of
38:19
is PBRPBR has come back with a lot of young people, has it not?
38:22
It's has some nostalgia for me as well, but but that seems to
38:25
be when a lot of young people are drinking is PBR.
38:28
It's everywhere now and I actually had some over the
38:31
weekend. How did it taste?
38:34
Just like the old days. Just like the old days, I guess.
38:37
PBR is one of those things and I think it's based on what I've
38:39
had before. If anything.
38:41
I can drink one and be like, that's fine, it's all right,
38:43
it's good. Or drink it the next time.
38:45
I'd be like, God, that's the worst beer I've ever had.
38:47
So it it maybe depends on what I've drank before that one.
38:49
Maybe a little in moderation. Yeah.
38:51
So anyway, you guys publish definitions and guidelines for
38:56
beer styles. How often do those come out and
38:59
what's kind of the criteria for like a new style, if there is
39:04
one? Yeah.
39:05
So this is unfortunately a little bit outside of my realm
39:09
as well, but I will mention, I know that those are updated as
39:15
necessary. There's not like a specific
39:17
timeline of saying we're going to update it the XYZ.
39:20
But recently there have been, I could think of like the Italian
39:24
Pilsner style. That's that's one that has over
39:26
just the last couple years we've put out guidelines for because
39:30
it is a style that has has started bubbling up at more and
39:34
more brewery. So it's kind of as these styles
39:37
evolve where we're there with our kind of like group of
39:41
experts too. And I'm not including myself in
39:45
that group. It's people again, much smarter
39:47
than me, but that are that are setting.
39:50
And then we'll, a lot of times we'll have different categories
39:53
at like the Great American Beer Festival competition or the
39:56
World Beer Cup that will that will reflect those styles.
39:59
So I do have one request in the sour beer category and it's not
40:03
your fault, but there are real sours like sour beers that, you
40:06
know, you pucker. And then there are the fruited
40:08
sours that are really good and we love them, but they're not
40:11
sour in any way. And I know there's a definition
40:13
on there. Could we put in a request to
40:15
like get that category adjusted or edited or something?
40:18
Because. Not the same.
40:20
The note is being made. Yeah, please.
40:22
Yeah. This is a request a couple of
40:24
dopey guys in Nashville. Consider it sent.
40:27
Yeah. Appreciate it.
40:30
I'm checking it on tap and it says fruited sour.
40:31
I got you got the fruited part right, the sour parts not right.
40:34
Where's? The sour out.
40:36
It's just a pet peeve. We're really fascinated by the
40:41
right now, at least around this area over the like the last year
40:44
and a half or so, the PB and J sours that are out there that
40:48
have really become like a big deal.
40:50
I don't know if you've seen that you said you're in Colorado or
40:53
if you're seeing that kind of trend of that kind of beer
40:55
across the country. You know what I I haven't
40:59
specifically come across APB and J Sauer here.
41:02
Not saying that it's not just saying that I I haven't crossed
41:06
paths with it yet, but I'll keep my I'll keep my eyes out.
41:08
Is it something is it something worth pursuing, worth pursuing,
41:11
worth checking out? You guys liking?
41:13
Them, at least on a flight. Yeah, yeah.
41:15
And we have the luxury of having Zuul out of Knoxville kind of in
41:19
the region. So it's kind of caught fire in
41:22
this area. People flock to Knoxville to get
41:24
it in Knoxville earn and Zuul is is taking over Southern Griston
41:28
Town in Nashville. So hopefully you have a big
41:30
influx of that. But it's it's really huge in
41:32
this area. I don't know how far that
41:34
extends though. Yeah, yeah.
41:36
But it's good stuff that that's awesome.
41:38
And and you mentioned, you mentioned that they're taking
41:40
over something another brewery locally.
41:43
Yeah, I, I guess you know, not to steer away from the PB and J
41:47
sour, which I'm, I, I really want to try now.
41:50
But I, I do want to point out in, in terms of trends kind of
41:54
what we're seeing in terms of craft on craft collaboration and
41:58
consolidation is a lot of that has has really picked up in the
42:02
last couple years. Over the course of this
42:05
conversation. We've talked about innovation in
42:07
products, innovation in hospitality.
42:09
And this is kind of like my, the third main bucket is that I
42:13
think of in terms of innovation in the industry right now is
42:16
innovation and business model. Whether that is, you know, a
42:20
pure partnership where two different breweries realize that
42:23
they're running at half capacity and could be much more, much
42:27
more efficient cost wise if they go 100% capacity at one
42:31
facility. Or it can look like an
42:33
acquisition or more and more some of these kind of
42:37
collaboratives or portfolio of brands that are working that are
42:41
pooling resources, distribution resources, supply, purchasing
42:45
resources and being able to make their businesses more cost
42:49
competitive that way. So sorry, just totally derailed,
42:52
but I thought I wanted. To make sure we.
42:54
Mentioned it before we got to the end of this, you could hear.
42:57
You're fine. Another hour.
42:58
No, I could say you're fine because it's actually a very
43:01
relevant conversation to us because we did a podcast, The
43:05
Slot, you know, the past week or so about the fact that Southern
43:08
Griz is being taken over by Zul at the end of the year.
43:11
And that's a big deal for us. It's a big deal for the the
43:14
brewery community here in Nashville because Southern Grist
43:17
has been one of the leaders in crab brew here in Nashville for
43:21
quite some time. So it's a big deal.
43:23
Yeah, Yeah, totally. And you know the for some, for
43:26
some businesses in acquisition is really one of the only ways
43:29
to save the brands, right. If if unfortunately the
43:32
business, if the dollars and cents aren't shaking out, those
43:36
products could, could disappear. And so as a way to kind of
43:41
maintain that and be able to hold on to that for the
43:45
consumers who who do care and want it.
43:47
Some of these, one of these kind of like consolidation models
43:50
could be one of the only ways that you can still get that
43:53
particular. Product yeah, and we hope the
43:55
Grist brand doesn't go away. Hopefully it sticks around in
43:58
some capacity too, because we love them and we love Zoo and
44:01
the fact that they're coming together is a really cool thing.
44:04
We just hope that there's just there's still a collaboration of
44:06
somebody there. Yeah, and there's another one
44:08
too, here in Nashville. Bearded Iris just got purchased
44:11
by Wiseacre out of Memphis. So you know, that's that's also
44:15
happened. So it's like if you would have
44:17
said maybe like five years ago that was going to be happening
44:19
and I don't know, we would have believed it.
44:21
Yeah, yeah, the same in Graces. Both were acquired by other
44:25
Tennessee companies, not necessarily Nashville, but
44:27
Tennessee companies. So they're still within state.
44:29
Yeah, yeah. And, and so hopefully we'll
44:32
maintain a lot of the spirit, you know, and, and, you know,
44:35
one of the nice things is that, you know, at those locations now
44:39
you'll have access to probably a wider array of the acquiring
44:43
brand than than you could before.
44:46
So potentially again, keeps keeps these products available
44:50
to consumers. Yeah, even if it's not exactly,
44:53
you know how we would have expected it to play out five
44:55
years ago. Right.
44:56
But the, but the, the adding of the new stuff in town is
45:00
exciting. We're really excited about Zul
45:02
and Wiseacre being here. So just like you said, so new
45:06
product stuff we couldn't normally get here possibly.
45:08
See, now you're going to come to Nashville to get the PB and J.
45:11
Yeah, sooner than later, that's for sure.
45:14
Hey, one thing I wanted to bring up, I know we're running out of
45:16
time, but there seems to be more of an influx of different size
45:20
cans in the market. Beer cans as opposed to your
45:23
sixteens and even twelves 19.2 seem to be taken off what they
45:27
call stove pipes. They seem to be a lot more of
45:29
those and I know they're for different reasons.
45:31
And then the 8 1/2 ounce cans is another one.
45:34
It's kind of going the opposite direction.
45:35
Are you seeing that and what are some advantages of that to to
45:38
the breweries? Absolutely, yeah.
45:41
It all comes down to occasions at the end of the day.
45:44
So especially with the smaller format when you're talking about
45:48
those, the 8 oz. Where you know, some, again,
45:52
some consumers are really cognizant of wanting to, you
45:57
know, not being inebriated, stay in control.
46:00
If, if it's something that they want to have a beer before they
46:03
go out to their destination and they know they have to drive.
46:07
Cutting back 3rd of the volume of your beer is a good way to
46:12
make sure that your, you know, blood alcohol stays at a level
46:16
that folks feel comfortable with.
46:18
At the same time that, you know, on the other side of the
46:21
spectrum, the 19 twos, this is a lot of times, you know, the
46:25
folks who come in and are like, jeez, I just don't want to drop,
46:29
you know, 12 to 15 bucks on a six pack of craft beer.
46:34
I don't know if that, you know, that it's not for ivory craft
46:37
beer. Some fall outside of that range.
46:39
But you know, if they say, you know, tonight I I just, I want
46:43
the equivalent of, you know, a beer plus.
46:46
That's a great opportunity for them to take that, take that
46:49
over to a backyard barbecue and not have to like not have to
46:52
have paid for four beers that they weren't going to touch and
46:55
would just, you know, carry home anyways.
46:58
Yeah, different occasions. And yeah, if it, if it sticks in
47:02
the market, that means consumers are demanding it.
47:04
And so I'm really interested to see how the smaller format plays
47:09
out because I think it's pretty unequivocal at this point that
47:12
that 19 twos have a place in the market.
47:14
I, I think that the smaller format are yet to be proven, but
47:18
there's a lot of really smart folks who are putting out beers
47:21
in that format. I expect expect the market
47:24
research has been done. I think the style of beer might
47:27
have something to do with it because we talked to Hop and Fro
47:29
and they went from bombers. They used to have bombers and
47:32
they've gone with 8 1/2 ounce cans because they're 12 or 13 or
47:35
14% and that's a better size for someone.
47:39
Just like it's totally don't have to get inebriated with 16
47:42
ounces or 22 oz. So a 14% beer but 18 oz 8 1/2 is
47:47
great. Yeah.
47:48
And it's kind of like what we said, you know, maybe 45 minutes
47:50
ago in this conversation. It's really rethinking the
47:53
purpose of everything, what they're doing.
47:55
And this is this is a part of it.
47:56
Yeah, yeah. I think it's great.
47:58
I see them and I'm like, OK, I like and like the 19.2 is
48:01
they're like some depends on the brand.
48:03
It's like 3 dollars, $3.15. It's like I can drink, you know,
48:08
It's, it's pretty good for, yeah.
48:09
It's an approachable price point.
48:11
Absolutely. To buy one, you're at Kroger and
48:13
you get some hamburger buns and you grab your 19.2% or 19.2
48:18
ounce beer. And 19.2% shouldn't be in a
48:21
19.2. I think we have to draw a line
48:25
somewhere. It feels a bit much.
48:27
That would be in the 8 1/2 ounce can probably.
48:30
Yeah, exactly. Matt, I know we're winding down.
48:32
You got, we got a couple minutes.
48:33
Steve, you want to end with anything or Matt anything, you
48:36
want to kind of a summarize here as we wind down.
48:39
I don't know if it's a summary, but I, I do want to express
48:41
gratitude for what you guys are doing with this podcast and
48:45
bringing beer stories to your audience and keeping the craft
48:49
culture alive. Because, you know, this is this
48:52
is an industry that I talk a lot in dollars and cents, but at the
48:56
end of the day, it's about people who care about the
48:59
product, about a great product. And so, yeah, yeah, I appreciate
49:03
the conversation that we've had today.
49:05
Yeah, I appreciate the work you guys do well.
49:07
Thank you. And ultimately we are just beer
49:09
consumers. We just, we and we love it and
49:11
we're passionate about it. And that's what this comes from.
49:13
And we drink it every day and we want to talk about it.
49:16
And, you know, we appreciate guys like you coming on and, you
49:18
know, sharing your time with us. A true pleasure.
49:21
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll just I'll just end on
49:23
what what you had said earlier. I mean, with all, there's a lot
49:27
of great folks out there that are doing this.
49:30
We're in beer and we've met them.
49:31
I mean, we've met a lot of them here in Nashville and traveling
49:34
over the parts of the country and having them on the podcast.
49:36
And there's a lot of great folks out there that are just, you
49:40
know, they're grinding hard and we appreciate all of them.
49:42
Right. And we appreciate what the Birds
49:43
Association is doing too, because it's lifting everybody
49:46
up, it's unity and trying to keep everybody going and and you
49:49
guys have resources. Next time you come back on,
49:51
we'll talk about your resources and stuff like that because you
49:54
got a lot of programs and things that you do too.
49:56
So. Yeah, absolutely.
49:58
I appreciate you saying that. Awesome, guys.
50:00
Well, we'll have you back soon, Matt, and we appreciate it.
50:03
Next time another report comes out, we'll have to get you on
50:06
and we'll talk more about some of the stats because we know
50:09
that you love stats and we love stats too.
50:11
Yeah, totally. That's well, we'll do it for the
50:14
stats. I love it.
50:15
Yeah. Thanks so much guys.
50:17
All right. Thanks a lot from the Brewery
50:19
Underground podcast. Cheers, cheers.