Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 135: Sarah Kleiner - Consistency Over Perfection: How to Build a Healthier Life with Sunlight

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135: Sarah Kleiner - Consistency Over Perfection: How to Build a Healthier Life with Sunlight · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

5:01
Meredith Oke: Sarah Kleiner, welcome back. Good to see you.
5:05
Sarah Kleiner: Good to see you. As always. Thank you for having
5:07
me.
5:09
Meredith Oke: I love having you. And I'm excited because today
5:12
we're going to talk about sunlight and all the
5:16
ways that it's amazing for us. But first I wanted
5:20
to start. So I did an interview earlier this week
5:26
with the founders husband and wife who founded
5:29
Boncharge. And because they're in Australia, the
5:32
interview is at like 8pm so when I was having
5:35
dinner with the family, I made all my children
5:39
come up with questions for the Bontarsh people.
5:42
And my daughter Twyla, who's 11, she was like,
5:46
ask, ask him how the orange glasses get orange.
5:50
So I did, and it was like a really fun answer
5:52
that I'm like, I didn't actually know that. So I
5:55
said, twyla, that was a really good question.
5:57
Thanks. She's like, no problem. When's your next
5:59
podcast? I'm like, it's with my friend Sarah
6:01
Kleiner. And she's like, oh, does she do. I said,
6:04
she's a health coach. She's like, okay, you
6:08
should ask her why she became a health coach. And
6:12
I was like, oh, gosh, okay. And then she pauses
6:15
and she goes, does she have any siblings? I said,
6:18
yeah, she has a sister. She said, two. Two
6:22
sisters. Okay. She goes, you should ask her what
6:26
they think of all this quantum biology stuff. I
6:31
love that.
6:35
Sarah Kleiner: I should have her over to help me questions for
6:38
my guests.
6:40
Meredith Oke: She's available.
6:43
Sarah Kleiner: Amazing summer internship.
6:48
Meredith Oke: So anyway, I feel like that's actually fun. Like,
6:50
what, what do your sisters think of all this?
6:55
Because I know it's, it's, you know. Yeah, it's
6:58
like everyone has people in their family who are
7:00
like, what are you talking about?
7:02
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah, I'm the black sheep of the family.
7:04
Absolutely. Yeah. We just say that we are very. I
7:11
mean, I love my sisters very, very dearly. And
7:14
we're close. We talk almost every day, really,
7:18
but we don't talk about health because we have a
7:21
lot of disagreements on that topic. And yeah,
7:27
it's, it can be a little bit touchy that we
7:29
definitely choose to raise our children
7:31
differently than one another and we choose to
7:34
live our lives differently. And yeah, and it's,
7:40
it's a touchy situation. There's definitely
7:44
differences in our health. I will say that
7:48
without kind of. I don't know, I love them so
7:50
much, you know, so I never want to talk badly
7:52
about my own family, but I. It's hard to watch my
7:56
sisters who are younger than me. I'm the oldest
7:58
it's hard to watch them begin to really struggle
8:01
with their health. We're in our 40s. I just
8:04
turned 46 yesterday.
8:07
Meredith Oke: And happy birthday.
8:09
Sarah Kleiner: Thank you. They're younger than me, and so I. I
8:13
have a hard time, like, biting my tongue and not
8:16
saying stuff because. Because I'm like, that is.
8:18
That problem you're dealing with is completely
8:21
preventable through sunlight exposure, diet,
8:25
lifestyle changes. But they kind of. I think
8:29
they've seen me go through so many different ways
8:33
of looking at health and trying on so many
8:35
different hats over the years. And it's been.
8:38
Since we were, like, children, you know, I was
8:41
always the one getting them to dance to Richard
8:44
Simmons sweating to the oldies, you know, like.
8:50
Meredith Oke: They would.
8:51
Sarah Kleiner: Come along on my wild ideas. They're like, okay.
8:54
And then after a while, they're like, she's
8:57
insane. We're not doing this anymore. So I get
8:59
it. I understand why they don't want to, like,
9:03
listen. But. Yeah, that's kind of that story.
9:08
Meredith Oke: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. And my. My.
9:12
I have a brother. He's like, 100 uninterested in
9:16
any of this. He's like, but, yeah, you can. We
9:21
can still have a relationship and do all the
9:23
things and. And it's fun. You know, it's
9:25
interesting. The eye of the beholder, right?
9:27
Because when it. When it's your sister and you're
9:28
like, oh, God, what is she into now? But, you
9:32
know, as. As a friend, as a colleague, I see it
9:35
as, you know, the evolution of your education,
9:39
trying all of these different things, and your
9:42
spiritual development and your, you know, growth
9:45
as a practitioner is through the experiential
9:50
learning that you had by trying things out since
9:52
you were a child.
9:54
Sarah Kleiner: You learn a lot about what doesn't work. You
9:56
know, you really do. And that's a lot of. On
10:00
social media right now. I just did a post about
10:03
nutrition. Half truths. Because it seems as
10:08
though if you really talk an authoritative tone
10:10
and you talk down to people, even if what you're
10:14
saying is not true or there's maybe a bit of
10:16
truth to it, that people really love that and
10:20
they really will. You'll grow fast. You'll go
10:22
viral. You'll get all the clicks and the likes,
10:25
and I can't operate that way, number one. But
10:29
number two, it's really become the. The lay of
10:32
the land, unfortunately. And it's hurting people.
10:35
It is really hurting, hurting people. I sit
10:37
across from people on zoom on a very regular
10:40
basis that they have bought in, like, really 100,
10:45
bought into some of these really polarizing
10:47
people online. And I did the same thing. Like I
10:50
said, I've learned a lot about what doesn't work,
10:54
and it's. It's not good what happens to people on
10:56
the other end. You know, I wish that people that
11:00
have made these online Personas could see the
11:03
things that I see. Maybe they do. Maybe they do.
11:05
I don't know. Maybe they get the emails and the.
11:08
The messages from people, or maybe they've chosen
11:10
to. To look a blind eye, you know, draw a blind
11:14
eye towards it. I don't know. But it's wild out
11:18
there.
11:20
Meredith Oke: Yeah, it is. And you're right. I mean, there's
11:22
something about someone just speaking
11:24
authoritatively and like, maybe. Maybe making you
11:27
feel, like, a little bit stupid. And you're just
11:31
like, what? Tell me more. And having it be on a
11:35
screen. There's like, something about your
11:39
professional views, like an authoritative
11:43
presence, camera work and good editing and.
11:48
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah, that's how it works, you guys. It's called
11:50
the mainstream media that you've rejected.
11:54
Meredith Oke: Yes, but that's the thing. We were trained on it.
11:58
So we're like, I'm gonna reject those people on
12:01
cnn, but like, this guy on Instagram can feed me
12:04
any nonsense. It's fine.
12:08
Sarah Kleiner: I'm just not interested in having con. I want to
12:10
have thoughtful dialogue with people. I want to
12:13
connect with people and have a meaningful
12:17
conversation. I really do. I don't want to tell
12:20
people exactly what to do because I don't know
12:23
exactly what someone should do. I know some great
12:27
foundations that I think everyone should have in
12:29
place, but there's so much nuance to. In. To the
12:34
individual person, and it does a big disservice
12:38
when we make people think that they can't survive
12:42
without us. You know, I think a post I did
12:45
recently that said something like, the. The worst
12:49
teachers are the ones that think that the healing
12:52
was all because of them, you know, that you
12:55
couldn't do it without them. And the best
12:57
teachers are the ones who remind you that the
12:59
healing was yours all along, you know? Yeah.
13:05
Meredith Oke: Yes. And to empower ourselves to. To remember
13:09
that. And while we have help along the way and
13:13
support along the way and learn from mentors and
13:15
practitioners, it's inner work. And so you
13:22
mentioned foundational pieces that are to have in
13:25
place. And then beyond that, there's lots of
13:27
nuance. So one of those foundational pieces is
13:32
for sure, the sun and sunlight. And I just want
13:38
to do a deep dive into that. We have a lot of new
13:40
listeners and even people who've been around for
13:42
a while. It's like, I think it's really worth
13:45
just going through some of the key ways that we
13:50
benefit from not cutting ourselves off from what
13:54
is essentially the source of light, of life. And,
13:57
you know, we talk about obviously safe and
14:00
sensible ways to do that. But let's just start
14:02
with why we need the sun.
14:09
Sarah Kleiner: Well, light really gives the body instructions to
14:12
do everything we need it to do. That's a basic.
14:16
We want the right type of light at the right
14:18
times, and then the right, you know, enough
14:21
darkness and darkness period at the right times.
14:24
This clock in our brain called the
14:27
superchiasmatic nucleus, it really is giving
14:30
instructions to everything in your body. And so
14:35
were meant to run on what's called a circadian
14:37
rhythm. Now, this is being studied in big pharma.
14:42
You know, it has been for a long time. I know
14:44
you've had Dr. See, hold on here. And he and I
14:46
talked about the same thing of this whole thing
14:48
of medicine studying the circadian timing of
14:54
medication, how certain times of day it's going
14:57
to work better. Certain times of day, there's a
15:00
chance for more toxicity. Our body is the same
15:02
thing. Our gut runs on this rhythm. You know,
15:05
certain times of the day we have more digestive
15:08
function, more stomach acid, more enzymatic
15:11
function. Certain times of the day, hormones are
15:14
meant to start going in a. In a symphony run on a
15:19
circadian rhythm. Again, this should be signaled
15:23
by light and darkness. And so if we're missing
15:27
these crucial elements, and as a fa, it's a
15:30
foundation, our metabolism's not going to work
15:34
properly, our gut's not going to work properly,
15:36
our brain's not going to work properly. The, the
15:39
information on circadian health and mental health
15:41
is extensive. You know, all the dysfunction, all
15:47
the things that everyone talks about, gut health,
15:49
mental health and hormone health, those are the
15:52
big hot topics in the holistic wellness and
15:55
alternative wellness space. That's a foundation,
15:59
you know, for any of these things to work. And I
16:01
think that people are so quick to look at what
16:05
supplement can I take and what diet can I do? And
16:08
not that those things don't have a time and a
16:10
place, but if the foundation is weak, as in your
16:13
circadian rhythms aren't dialed in, good luck,
16:18
you know, good luck with those things working as
16:20
effectively as they could or should.
16:24
Meredith Oke: Right? And I think that's the piece that so many
16:29
people are still missing. It's like, oh, yeah, I
16:31
guess I feel better when I go outside. But it's
16:33
like, you wouldn't go a day without Drinking
16:37
water. Right. Like, you wouldn't go an extended
16:40
period of time without eating real food. And yet
16:44
we still sort of. I don't think it's truly
16:48
landed. I know for a lot of people listening to
16:50
this podcast, it has. But for all your friends
16:54
and neighbors and family. Right. Like, it hasn't
16:57
truly landed. Like, we are an extension of this
17:04
light source and without it, we can't. Like,
17:09
everything else is a band aid.
17:11
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We can keep trying to push
17:17
things together and make things work, but if you
17:19
don't have the foundation, like I said, good
17:21
luck. It's going to be that much more difficult
17:24
cold. So metabolism is a big one. You know, I
17:28
always. I always say I kind of trick people to
17:31
come into my deeper work through talking about
17:34
weight loss, because, yeah, you can use this to
17:38
improve your metabolism. I have, you know, I've
17:41
struggled with my weight my entire life. Has lost
17:44
£100, three times. Just really a lot of struggles
17:49
with my metabolic health. Even on a really quote
17:53
unquote clean diet. My fasting blood sugar was
17:57
still high. It was still 90s low 100s, a lot of
18:02
days. And until I added these elements of light.
18:06
And it's very simple. People think it has to be
18:09
the way that we're taught a specific protocol and
18:13
getting X amount of minutes. And it doesn't have
18:17
to be perfect, but you do have to provide the
18:20
brain with the right signals for the metabolism
18:22
to function optimally. And what the research
18:25
clearly shows us is that if your days, your
18:29
mornings are too dim and your nights are too
18:33
bright, then that alone slows down the
18:36
metabolism. So you can again go on a very
18:40
restrictive diet. Eat clean, try to do all the
18:43
things, yet live the way that everyone lives,
18:46
which is waking up in the morning, looking at the
18:50
phone, turning on lights indoors and indoors.
18:53
Your lux, which is a measure of brightness, is
18:56
going to max out typically around 500, and that's
18:59
very, very bright. I would say the lux in my
19:02
house when I've measured it, is like 30, because
19:05
we don't do a bunch of overhead lights. When you
19:08
go outdoors, even on a cloudy, overcast day, the
19:12
lux can get up to like 10,000. And the brain
19:15
needs a minimum of about a thousand. When you
19:18
look at all the data and the research together,
19:20
it needs about a minimum of a thousand. You know,
19:23
up to 10,000 in that morning window. As well as
19:27
the signals from sunlight, we get the red, the
19:33
infrared, that's important for mitochondria, we
19:35
get UV light, that's important for metabolism,
19:39
for fat burning. We get all of that from simply
19:41
stepping outside during those, those windows of
19:43
time. It's such a, it's such a huge boost for the
19:47
metabolism and the mitochondria, which is
19:49
essentially the body's energy management system.
19:52
If those don't work, then again, good luck. But
19:56
our indoor living, our modern life prevents us
19:59
from getting those signals. There's no red and
20:02
infrared indoors. There's no UV light indoors
20:05
because we have energy efficient homes and we've
20:08
been taught that UV light is harmful. So we block
20:12
it all out so that alone can slow down your
20:16
metabolism. And that has been studied over and
20:19
over again. So you can fact check.
20:21
Meredith Oke: This is crazy. I mean, this is crazy. Like, if I,
20:24
you know, I was talking to my college roommate a
20:28
few months ago and she's like, oh, I put on
20:30
weight, you know, I didn't change anything. It
20:32
was, you know, it's hormonal. And so she, you
20:35
know, we just like revert back to what we learned
20:38
when we were paying attention, even if it was 10
20:41
years ago, 20 years ago, whatever. So she's like,
20:42
I got, I gotta get a peloton and like start, you
20:46
know, skipping lunch or something. And the idea
20:51
that, that her, you know, her hormones and her
20:54
metabolism is all, you know, all is connected
20:57
are, could be affected by the light that she's
21:01
getting. Like she was, you know, like, it just
21:04
seemed insane. So tell us like a little more
21:09
about, about how light controls our metabolism.
21:14
Right. Like this is for, I know this is like,
21:17
this is for my college roommate Julie. That's who
21:20
this question is for.
21:23
Sarah Kleiner: Well, there's a lot of elements to light that
21:27
signal the metabolism. I kind of just jumbled
21:29
them all in there. But to break it down, simply
21:33
sunrise is when we get that first little hit of
21:36
blue that tells the brain let's, you know, turn
21:39
off melatonin, start gradually making cortisol.
21:43
And if you, if you go online, there's this whole
21:47
cortisol face. Cortisol this, cortisol that.
21:50
Cortisol is the root of all evil for weight gain.
21:52
And the reason you're gaining weight is your
21:54
cortisol. And it's like, again, like, it's a
21:58
partial truth. We are meant to have cortisol rise
22:02
in the morning and that's with that timing of the
22:04
blue light that's from outdoors. So at sunrise we
22:07
get this beautiful red and infrared that speaks
22:11
directly to mitochondria, that allows us to make
22:14
this metabolic water, that allows us to expand
22:18
the cellular water in the body, which is like a
22:20
battery of Energy. So you think about, we're
22:23
supporting mitochondria, which, as I mentioned,
22:25
is the body's energy management system. By
22:27
getting out there at sunrise, getting that hit of
22:30
blue light. It's a very little bit of blue light
22:32
that comes on the horizon at sunrise. And it's
22:35
gradual to make cortisol in this natural, gradual
22:38
way. Now, I mentioned Lux. There's a difference
22:42
between Lux and Kelvin. I know this can confuse
22:45
people. There's a lux meter in my app, my
22:47
circadian app, that we'll talk about later on in
22:50
the episode, I'm sure. But indoors, the lux is
22:53
way too low, as I mentioned, maybe 500 maximum.
22:57
Most places it's going to be much dimmer than
22:59
that. So you've got the element of Lux being too
23:02
dim, but then you have the Kelvin being way too
23:05
high. So Kelvin is a, is another measurement of
23:08
light. And Kelvin in our indoor modern lighting
23:13
bulbs are like 5700, 6000. Your, your iPhone
23:16
screen or your phone screen is usually 5700 or
23:19
6000. So that is enough blue light, enough
23:22
brightness, again, not brightness, but enough
23:24
blue light really. And intensity. Kelvin is like
23:27
intensity of that light. Intensity also signals
23:30
the brain and says, hey, it's the middle of the
23:32
day. It's June. It's in the middle of the day.
23:35
Even though it might be December at like 7am It's
23:41
a signal to that clock in the brain that is
23:43
activated by blue light. Says, you got to hurry
23:46
up and make more cortisol because we've, we've
23:48
slept in and now you've got to hurry up and make
23:52
more. So we get a natural rise of cortisol, we
23:56
get metabolic support, mitochondrial support from
23:59
sunrise, we get a metabolic confusion, or as
24:03
ChatGPT would call it, metabolic chaos. Everyone
24:09
sees in Chat GPT these days, everyone's got
24:12
metabolic chaos. I know you use chat GPT for your
24:16
post. Hormone chaos. Anywho, your phone is giving
24:24
you metabolic chaos. Hormone chaos. Sunlight is
24:29
this beautiful symphony of light that, that gives
24:31
your body the right signals. And so that's the,
24:35
that's the first window of light that you really
24:37
want to get out there for. Then we have UV light,
24:41
which, as I mentioned, has really been demonized.
24:44
But UV light, especially in the eyes and then on
24:46
the skin, there's some benefits as well. But it's
24:48
eye and skin. I've got the papers on that in my
24:51
leptin master plan course. It tells the brain to
24:55
make something called Alpha msh, which is kind of
24:59
like fat burning, right? So it's it boosts your
25:01
metabolism in, in a very non scientific
25:04
explanation. Explanation. It's boosting your
25:07
metabolism, boosting fat burning and it regulates
25:10
your appetite. So I have a lot of people that
25:13
come to me that they have no appetite in the
25:16
morning. They're just like, oh guess what? That's
25:19
probably too much cortisol from what did I just
25:21
mention before? The phone screen and the lights
25:24
part of it, stress, the coffee, just getting this
25:28
huge spike and of course you're not hungry. And
25:31
so the way I have people to start regulating
25:34
their appetite is sunrise light because that's
25:36
going to start those metabolic clocks spinning
25:38
appropriately. But then you've got UV light where
25:42
you get production of serotonin, dopamine, alpha
25:46
msh and that can help to regulate the appetite.
25:50
So if you're someone who's never been hungry in
25:52
the morning, I'm like, don't force feed yourself.
25:55
Maybe have like a little something, little
25:57
protein, get it started. But don't make yourself
25:59
sick. But go outside during that UVA window when
26:03
UVA first begins to come online. That's right
26:06
after sunrise, depending on where you are. That's
26:09
why I put that in my app, my circadian app, so
26:11
you can understand, oh, it's 45 minutes after
26:14
sunrise. It's in the app. It'll tell you try to
26:17
get out there at the beginning of that and if you
26:19
can spend 20 minutes out there, that can do
26:21
wonders for your appetite and your metabolism.
26:24
Plus you get the lux, you get that appropriate
26:27
amount of lux and brightness. So for metabolic
26:31
benefits that's really, and I'm, there's more
26:34
elements to it. Right? We could probably have a
26:36
six hour long podcast about all of this, but this
26:41
is a dumbed down yes, we.
26:43
Meredith Oke: Just, we want the, we just want the essentials.
26:47
Yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah, I like to give
26:51
enough information for people to, to be able to
26:54
decide to take action. Right. And then if you, if
26:57
it's important to you to understand every little
27:00
minutia of the science there, by all means go
27:04
study it. But I think for most people it's like
27:08
especially it's like I need to know enough to,
27:12
for this to make sense cognitively. Like my, my
27:16
intellect needs enough information to be able to
27:19
say, okay, that is a logical good choice. And
27:22
we're also, when it comes to the sun, we also are
27:25
having to counterbalance like 20 years worth of
27:29
propaganda saying that the sun is going to kill
27:31
us and we should never go, we should be covered
27:34
up everywhere every time we go outside. So.
27:41
Sarah Kleiner: We also get Nitric oxide, which is, you know,
27:44
I've been talking a lot about perimenopause
27:46
because I'm in the thick of it myself. You know,
27:48
I'm at that age. But I feel like this stuff helps
27:51
so, so much. And one thing that can happen to a
27:55
woman as she goes towards menopause is nitric
27:58
oxide levels go way down. Now this is also true
28:01
in people with cardiovascular issues. And one of
28:05
the things that UV light does, and if you can get
28:08
that morning uva, like get that process started
28:10
in the morning, is increase your, your body's
28:13
nitric oxide production. So that's going to
28:15
improve certain circulation again, another
28:17
metabolic boost, beta endorphin. So a lot of
28:21
people start to do this stuff and they're like, I
28:23
crave it, I need it. That's how I, that's how I
28:26
am now. But your body makes beta endorphins in
28:30
the morning and it's such a great. And dopamine,
28:33
it's so many wonderful things. Such a great way
28:38
to start your day rather than scrolling. And
28:40
coffee.
28:43
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And just on the coffee, would your guidance
28:49
be to push it later for those of us who still
28:52
like to have our coffee?
28:54
Sarah Kleiner: I do. I, I like people to push it a bit later.
28:57
You know, I'll do good structured mineral water,
29:02
some hydrogen water. When I first wake up, walk
29:05
around the backyard grounding with my dog. She
29:08
always, she's like the reason, okay, I gotta go
29:12
outside and walk around because my dog just has
29:15
to go out. So grounding water. Then I go inside
29:20
and eat something, then I'll have some coffee. I
29:23
went a couple of years without coffee and yeah,
29:28
it improved my hrv, it improved my sleep,
29:31
probably was supportive to thyroid and adrenals,
29:35
help me probably get pregnant, stay pregnant and,
29:38
you know. But then my son was born, life got
29:42
crazy and I just missed my coffee. So I have
29:45
coffee, but I always have sunlight, some
29:49
grounding, some hydration, some breakfast, then
29:53
I'll have some coffee. And then I cut myself off
29:55
by 9 o' clock. I just don't do it after 9am
29:59
because it can be a circadian disruptor for sure.
30:03
Right.
30:05
Meredith Oke: Because it's giving that cortisol spike when
30:08
you're perhaps not meant to be having it. Yeah,
30:12
got it. Okay, then let's talk about sunrise for a
30:16
little bit. So I know, I know for me there are
30:20
certain times of years, certain times of the year
30:23
where I am up at sunrise, but there are also
30:26
certain times of the year where sunrise is so
30:28
early that I am fast asleep at Sunrise. So I
30:32
would say it's probably like an hour later that I
30:34
wake up and go outside. Am I still getting
30:37
benefits? And for, for people who, you know, for
30:41
whatever scheduling reasons are not up at
30:42
sunrise, is it just like go outside and get the
30:46
morning light? Whatever time it is, is that still
30:48
helping?
30:49
Sarah Kleiner: I've learned about just coaching and teaching and
30:53
understanding this whole thing is it doesn't have
30:55
to to be perfect, it just has to be consistent.
30:58
You know, just start to develop some consistency.
31:02
And yeah, it's in the summer and I have people
31:05
that live way up in Canada and Sweden and places
31:08
where the sun doesn't even set in the summer,
31:10
which can be a whole other conversation. I feel
31:13
like I need to do a video for my YouTube channel
31:16
because I keep getting so many people with these
31:19
questions and I have a whole module about it in
31:21
my sunwise course and in my leptin. Like I have
31:23
modules behind my, in my courses that go into
31:27
this and give you tons of strategies and
31:29
protocols. But what I've kind of come to the
31:32
conclusion of after working with so many people
31:34
and so many people in my community is that number
31:36
one, it's consistency over perfection. I think in
31:39
the summertime it's really just more important to
31:42
have a consistent wake time and a consistent
31:44
sleep time. And we typically, unless someone's
31:49
dealing with a chronic illness, they're really
31:52
trying to heal from something, we can get away
31:54
with a little bit less sleep in the summer. Then
31:57
we need more in the winter. Like summer is
31:59
vitamin D season. We're supposed to be soaking it
32:02
up. We're supposed to have longer days, make a
32:04
little bit more cortisol. Winter, we're supposed
32:07
to be sleeping more, really pumping out that
32:09
melatonin, pumping in repair, autophagy, all that
32:14
really supposed to be in repair mode in the
32:16
winter. That's a whole other conversation because
32:19
most people live like it's summer year round. But
32:22
I think that in the summertime, wake times, if
32:25
you can get a little bit of sunrise in there, I
32:28
mean just before UV light hits, it's going to be
32:31
a little bit of a different signal than the uv.
32:36
So yeah, it's just really going to depend on
32:40
where you live. I live in Georgia, so the latest
32:42
our sunrise really comes up. I think it's like
32:44
6:30. That's doable. Yeah, but if it was 5:30,
32:49
girl, I'd be sleeping.
32:52
Meredith Oke: Yeah, that's where I'm at right now. It's 5:30
32:55
and I'm like, I'm not.
32:56
Sarah Kleiner: Gonna have a five.
32:57
Meredith Oke: Yeah. 6:15 is my, is my earliest. And I've tried,
33:00
I've tried forcing myself to get up because I'm
33:03
like, I have to see the sunrise. That's the
33:05
thing. And I'm really tired all day, even with
33:09
the sunrise because I just wasn't ready to get
33:11
up. So yeah, I'm like, okay, so in this, in
33:16
those. When the sun rises at 5:15.
33:19
Sarah Kleiner: I know Dr. Sarah, she's flying in here tomorrow.
33:22
She's gonna be staying with me for like a month
33:26
tomorrow. She, she doesn't have children. She
33:30
does live in the uk and I know she gets up for
33:33
the sunrise there, which is like four in the
33:35
morning in the summer. But I can't do that.
33:41
Wouldn't do that probably. Even if I lived in the
33:44
UK, I probably would still be like 6:30 gal.
33:48
Meredith Oke: Yeah, no, that's okay. Good. I'm glad we had this
33:52
chat and I wanted to have it because I, I know
33:56
that when you're first learning something,
33:58
everyone wants to like do it perfectly perfect
34:00
and perfect. You know, we develop all these
34:05
purity tests and everything. And it's like, you
34:09
know, close enough is good enough. And
34:12
consistency, consistency is the key. Absolutely.
34:16
Sarah Kleiner: My, my group members are so good now. They, they
34:19
repeat it to me. They're like consistency over
34:22
perfection. And I think I say that in a lot of my
34:25
courses. At the end of each lesson, I really want
34:28
to drill that into people because we can't be
34:31
perfect. We just literally cannot be perfect. We
34:34
can be consistent though, to the best of our
34:36
ability. And when our head hits the pillow at
34:39
night, we know we did our best. We can do that.
34:42
But life's gonna happen sometimes. It really is.
34:46
And so you just. Consistency is gonna go a long
34:49
way. And remember that for most of your life you
34:54
didn't have access to this information. You
34:56
weren't implementing it. And now here we are. So
35:00
let's just do our best.
35:03
Meredith Oke: Yep. And we will. So, yeah, it's consistent sun,
35:07
not perfect sun. So what do you hear from people?
35:12
Like, what are some of the biggest sun myths that
35:14
you'd like to, that you'd like to burst? And then
35:16
I have some other stuff I want to ask you.
35:18
Sarah Kleiner: More is better. Avoiding seed oils will give you
35:24
the superpower ability to lay out in the sun for
35:26
six hours straight in a year UV of 11. No. Yeah,
35:34
don't do that.
35:34
Meredith Oke: No.
35:37
Sarah Kleiner: There. And I think a lot of people, myself
35:40
included, came into this information and, and
35:43
what I was following people who said that. And I
35:47
did photo age my skin. I did get some Wrinkles
35:54
from overdoing it. And now you can find me in a
35:57
wide brimmed hat, a visor. I still don't wear
36:00
sunscreen because I'm never in a situation where
36:03
I can't control the amount of sun that I'm
36:05
getting. I can always go to the shade or put on
36:08
some clothing like cover up. But I think that
36:13
there's so many researchers out there and there
36:18
are people that want the clicks and the views and
36:22
the likes and so they put out this information
36:25
that's very dogmatic and again talks down to
36:28
people and is just rude. Like I read some of
36:31
these posts and I'm like, rude?
36:33
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
36:35
Sarah Kleiner: How does this have 3,000 likes? It's rude. I
36:41
don't like it. I don't like to see people being
36:46
talked to that way. And then they're like, but I
36:47
can never. But I don't. And I'm like, it just
36:51
doesn't work that way, guys. There can be a case
36:55
where someone may need to wear a non nano zinc
37:00
oxide sunscreen. There may be a case, and this is
37:03
blasphemy, where someone may need to wear a pair
37:08
of sunglasses that are something like Raw Optics,
37:11
Blue Sync or I know Bon Charge has some that are.
37:14
That they won't shut down your circadian rhythm.
37:16
But our eyes are not meant to get glare off of
37:21
sidewalks, off of water, off of really white sand
37:25
like you see on the Gulf. I mean like that hurts.
37:30
It damages the retina. It puts your body and your
37:33
nervous system into a state of fight flight. It's
37:36
an unnatural reflection of the sun and it can
37:38
hurt your eyes. So there. That's one of the
37:44
biggest pet peeves of mine lately is that people.
37:49
If you live in Canada and you've decided to go to
37:52
Florida and it's March, you need to be really
37:57
careful. Like you don't. You can really burn
38:00
yourself if you think that you're not avoiding,
38:03
you're avoiding seed oils and you're going out in
38:06
the morning for sunrise and for uva and you can
38:09
spend all day on the beach. Like you know, you
38:15
may not want to do that. Not to say that those
38:17
things don't help. They absolutely do help there.
38:20
I just put out an article in my newsletter
38:23
recently about skin protective foods. You've got
38:26
astaxanthin. There are phytochemicals and
38:30
compounds in things like lycopene that do protect
38:34
the skin from strong UV and that they actually
38:38
have some like built in sunscreen effects. There
38:41
is a lot of scientific data that shows things
38:43
like seed oils can actually mutate and cause skin
38:47
cancers. And I put those papers in that article
38:50
as well. But it doesn't make us immune. Like
38:54
there's a certain point that everyone's body will
38:56
come to depending on your Fitzpatrick skin type,
38:59
depending on if you've built up resilience and
39:02
solar tolerance and callous. So yeah, that's my
39:08
long winded answer.
39:09
Meredith Oke: Yes. Yes. And it's. It goes back to like that
39:13
perfectionism thing and the ability to have like
39:15
a balanced mind and a mature cognitive capacity
39:20
where it's like, oh, the sun is really good for
39:22
me, but that doesn't mean eight hours outside in
39:27
a UV 11 when I'm fair skinned and I'm not used to
39:31
it is good for me. Like it's not all one thing.
39:35
There, there is balance. Like fat is good for me,
39:40
but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat an all fat
39:42
diet or I'm going to. Right. Like we.
39:45
Sarah Kleiner: Or nothing but sugar. That's the new thing. Yeah,
39:49
the sugar diet. That's got everyone.
39:51
Meredith Oke: What?
39:52
Sarah Kleiner: Why are you guys so mad about this right now?
39:54
People are so mad about the sugar diet.
39:57
Meredith Oke: What's the sugar diet? I only follow like you and
40:01
my quantum people. So when weird things happen,
40:03
I'm like, what? What's happening? What's this
40:06
craze?
40:08
Sarah Kleiner: It's a thing. It's a thing people are doing. Mark
40:10
Bell is doing it and just talking about how
40:13
shredded he's getting from it. It's so dumb.
40:17
Meredith Oke: I swear to God. You put a picture of yourself
40:19
looking fit on the, on the Internet and then say
40:22
I got looking like this by doing this and it's
40:26
like somehow proof that that's the best thing to
40:29
do for everybody. What sugar diet? So like, like,
40:35
like fruit or like.
40:37
Sarah Kleiner: Like sugar, like fruit and candy is what people
40:42
are. Maple syrup, honey.
40:45
Meredith Oke: Sorry. What's the like rationale for like what
40:49
are they?
40:51
Sarah Kleiner: It's hitting the other side of the Randall cycle
40:54
and there is a hormone, I think it's called FG1.
41:00
I don't know. I talked with Dr. Sarah about this
41:02
whole thing on my YouTube channel and all the
41:04
carnivores came out of the woodwork and were like
41:06
pissed off. Which we weren't even like saying
41:09
people should do it. We were just discussing it
41:10
and like what it was and how it worked. Everyone
41:13
got so mad.
41:15
Meredith Oke: You can't talk about sugar. Yeah, we get a little
41:24
attached to these concepts, don't we? And then
41:27
they become like our, our safety, our safety
41:32
blanket our personality. And so Whenever any
41:35
information, and especially if it comes through
41:37
someone who we think is on our side and it's like
41:42
interfering with what we believe, it's the way
41:44
it's supposed to be, we get really triggered.
41:49
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah, I just don't, I'm not on anyone's like,
41:52
quote unquote side. I think I piss people off
41:55
because even the sun stuff, I'm like, yeah,
41:58
sometimes you might need to protect your eyes on
42:01
the water or on snow sometimes.
42:06
Meredith Oke: Which is, which is a true and reasonable thing to
42:09
say. And it's only because we can't. A lot of us
42:12
came to this information through such a, you
42:16
know, one sided, dogmatic, puritanical, stupid
42:21
really approach that. Like, of course you need to
42:26
wear goggles when you're skiing. Of course you
42:29
need to protect your eyes if you're out on a boat
42:32
or anywhere with a glare. And our family learned
42:35
that, like, we were like, oh, this, we want to
42:37
get as much sun as possible. And we went on a ski
42:39
trip and we had gone on like a beach trip and
42:43
we'd been, you know, we didn't use sunscreen. We
42:45
did all the other things instead and went in the
42:47
shade when we got pink and all this stuff and it
42:49
was great. So then we went on a ski trip and
42:51
we're like, ah, all the sun all the time and we
42:54
didn't put on sunblock. And one day we were, we
42:59
were in the like the Alps, which is really high
43:02
altitude. It was, it was stupid. It was stupid.
43:05
And after one day we were like, we're idiots. We
43:08
bought some zinc. But, you know, this is how we
43:14
learn.
43:16
Sarah Kleiner: I mean, I did, I had to learn for myself.
43:19
Thankfully, there's no irreparable damage that's
43:22
been done. I don't, I don't know, I feel like
43:25
it's hard to do irreparable, irreparable damage.
43:29
I don't know why I can't talk today. Because
43:32
people freak out about this stuff and think that
43:34
they have with their health. And I, I always say,
43:37
you're only broken if you say you are you.
43:39
There's no point of return if you say there's no
43:42
point of return. So yeah, we screw up, we make
43:45
mistakes, but we have highly adaptable bodies if
43:49
we can course correct. So, you know, sunburn.
43:53
Okay.
43:54
Meredith Oke: Oops.
43:56
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah.
43:58
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And as you said, you know, the, the UV
44:02
light will cause photo damage. And so I've become
44:06
as well, a hat wearer. So people who've met me in
44:09
the last five years are like, oh, you're really
44:12
love wearing hats. Like, oh, I do now. This is
44:17
just about. Yeah. Developing a way of living
44:20
that's not insane, that doesn't feel super hard.
44:24
Like, maybe changing habits in the beginning does
44:26
require a lot of support. Support. That's why I
44:28
think it's good that you have communities, that
44:30
there are health coaches. Right. Like, we do need
44:32
that support to change things, to do new things,
44:35
Things that maybe the people in our normal lives
44:38
are like, why would you do that? But once it
44:42
becomes a habit, you don't have to think about it
44:43
anymore, Right?
44:44
Sarah Kleiner: Correct.
44:45
Meredith Oke: And you don't have to hold yourself to some kind
44:48
of false standard that you've concocted from
44:55
various Instagram posts of people telling you
44:59
there's only one way to do things.
45:03
Sarah Kleiner: Exactly.
45:07
Meredith Oke: So before we wrap up, I want to talk about the
45:11
app, because for anyone listening who does want
45:14
to embrace the sun, I just. I want to say Sarah
45:20
and I have both embraced this way of life. And I
45:23
don't know, I think we look really good. I don't
45:25
feel wrinkled. You look way younger than you just
45:29
said you were. So it's fun. I have more energy. I
45:34
feel so much better. I no longer suffer from
45:36
chronic fatigue. And it's not like everything's
45:39
perfect all of the time, but it's like, if you've
45:43
ever changed your eating habits and you're like,
45:45
oh, wow, how did I ever eat that way before? I
45:47
feel so much better. It's. It's like that with.
45:49
But with a son.
45:51
Sarah Kleiner: Exactly.
45:52
Meredith Oke: And a very helpful way to, like, get inside of
45:56
this and do it sensibly and effectively is to use
46:00
the Circadian app that Sarah had made. She hired
46:03
a designer and, like, she's like, here's all the
46:06
things that are important to track, like, make an
46:08
app. Tell us. Tell us about it, because I think
46:11
it's really good.
46:12
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah. It's called my Circadian app. It's all one
46:15
word. And I had a lot of clients and people with
46:19
brain fog, and they just. I was giving them
46:21
several different apps to help them to figure out
46:24
these different things. And so the app will
46:28
essentially let you know what time, Daybreak,
46:32
sunrise, uva, which we talked about those earlier
46:36
in the episode, why they're important. Uvb.
46:39
That's when we actually make vitamin D, because
46:41
people, most people have no idea that you only
46:44
can synthesize D at certain parts of the day in
46:47
certain parts of the year. So the app is going to
46:49
let you know when that happens for you. And it
46:51
has a timer in there, so you can Put in your skin
46:54
type and how much clothing you're wearing, and
46:57
the app will say you need to, you know, it'll
46:59
kind of gauge the time based on UV index, skin
47:04
type, clothing, how safe it is for you to be out
47:06
there. Now, obviously, you never want to override
47:09
your own tuition because an app says you have,
47:11
like, two more minutes. If you feel, like, really
47:13
warm and you're getting that erythema dose in the
47:16
skin, you're feeling kind of warm, then go, you
47:19
know, get out of it. But I find it to be pretty
47:21
spot on for people that are just building a
47:24
relationship with the sun. So that timer, the D
47:27
timer, will help you to figure out how long is
47:30
appropriate for you to be out in that stronger
47:32
light. Also lets you know when sunset happens,
47:36
when nightfall happens. I use that as my reminder
47:39
to get the blue blockers out, start mitigating
47:41
the artificial light at night, because we didn't
47:43
really talk about that, but that's another huge
47:45
metabolic destroyer, really. And there's tons of
47:50
literature on that. I know Meredith has tons of
47:51
episodes on that, but the app will let you know
47:54
when that's happening. And then with the full
47:56
version, you can forecast up to five days in
47:59
advance. So you can know what time sunrise is
48:01
tomorrow, the next day, the next day, uva. Right.
48:03
Because these times change, as we mentioned, with
48:06
the early sunrises in the summer, it's not like
48:09
that in the winter, It's a bit later in the
48:10
winter. So these times just change a little bit
48:14
every single day depending on where you live. The
48:16
further north you live, the more extreme the
48:19
change is from day to day. Like me, it's a little
48:22
more moderate, but it really gives you all in one
48:25
what you need to know. It's got a lux meter, so
48:28
you can understand. Am I getting enough Lux in
48:31
the morning, even if it's cloudy and rainy? Oh,
48:34
I'm going to measure my Lux, and that's going to
48:36
give me that little extra motivation to get out
48:39
there and get that light. Even though it's not
48:42
very pretty, it's not very fun. And then you can
48:45
measure Lux in your bedroom at night, too,
48:48
because there's also studies. And the app has
48:50
tons of studies in there, so it backs up all this
48:52
information that you want to have Your lux below
48:56
10 the three hours leading up to bed, along with
49:00
the blue blockers. And so you can measure from
49:04
where you're sitting. Like, is it dim enough
49:07
here? Because I've seen people sit in front of
49:09
these really bright red light therapy panels that
49:11
can trigger the cortisol response, if that goes
49:14
in. So it's just got all that. It's got a moon
49:18
tracker to tell you phases of the moon. It's got
49:21
a compass to tell you north, south, east, and
49:23
west. So lots of cool stuff in there. And we even
49:27
just got a red screen mode, so you can. Oh, cool.
49:32
Yeah, you can go in Settings and it'll adapt the
49:34
app for red screen mode so that you can see, you
49:39
know, because red screen will wipe out certain
49:41
apps. You're like, what's happening? So it has a
49:44
red screen mode now, which is pretty cool.
49:47
Meredith Oke: Oh, that's so good.
49:48
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah.
49:49
Meredith Oke: Yeah. So I definitely recommend downloading this
49:52
app, my Circadian app, because it's like one of
49:55
those things, you're like, okay, like, I'll do
49:57
the sunlight thing. And then as you start doing
49:59
it, you're like, oh, wait, what about this? Oh,
50:01
wait, what about that? And so this app just
50:03
answers all the questions and you know that, you
50:07
know, you're keeping yourself safe and not
50:08
staying out too long. And then, as you said,
50:10
Sarah, eventually you'll know intuitively. But
50:12
it's a really great way to get started and stay
50:15
on track. I use it all the time. I didn't know
50:17
about the bed, like, using it in my bedroom to
50:20
make sure it's dark enough. That's a good pro tip.
50:23
Sarah Kleiner: Your sleeping environment, love it less and a
50:26
one. But that evening environment, 10 and below,
50:30
three hours getting up to bed. So, yeah, Sarah
50:33
and I, when we watch tv, I'll put a pair of blue
50:36
blockers over the lens and, like, measure, like.
50:38
Okay, we're good. Cover up the skin, watch a
50:43
little tv.
50:45
Meredith Oke: Okay, good. I was gonna ask of, like, what if
50:47
you're wearing blue blockers but watching Netflix.
50:52
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah.
50:53
Meredith Oke: So we're still okay?
50:55
Sarah Kleiner: Yeah.
50:55
Meredith Oke: And good. All right, well, thanks for jumping on
51:01
and sharing all of this. It's going to be so
51:04
helpful. And this is such a good episode to share
51:07
with your friends who are like, what are you
51:11
doing? Why are you wearing those glasses? What's.
51:13
What's going on? Where's your SPF 50? You can
51:16
just send them this episode. That's what this is
51:18
for. And you can follow Sarah, Sarah Kleiner
51:22
Wellness on Instagram. She provides tons of super
51:27
great information on there. You have a newsletter
51:30
and of course, the Circadian app.
51:33
Sarah Kleiner: Amazing. Thank you for having me. Okay. Yeah,
51:37
thank you.
51:38
Meredith Oke: We'll see you soon.
51:40
Sarah Kleiner: Alrighty.