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Tina Swithin & Antisocial Personality Disorders · Untraditionally Lala

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: What is up all of my little babies? It is
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: yours truly, Laala Kent. This is the Give Them Lalla Podcast.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: You just landed from outer space and thought where am I?
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: What am I listening to? Just give them La La? Obviously,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: what's up, Jess? How you doing? Though?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm good, Laala? How are you today?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm a fucking vibe today.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I can tell you're glowing. Tell us why give me
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: the secret?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Wait? Really?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Am? Yeah?
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: You actually are? Okay. So I did an entire just
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: give them Laala skin routine last night. Usually with my
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: skincare routine, even with my cakeup, like you know, I
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: mix my match, just switch it up sometimes. Last night
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: it was strictly and only give them La La skin
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: from the face wash to the moisturizer. I did my
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: mask Ooh okay, obviously stay calm, am, I looking calm.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: You're looking calm and sounding calm.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Well I love that. Yes, okay, so that's why you're glowing.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: That's why I'm glowing, which leads me to my next
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: very exciting news. I want to give my podcast listeners
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: twenty percent off of give Them Laala. So if you
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: go to give them Laala dot com and use discount
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: code podcast twenty This is exclusive for my podcast listeners. Yo,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: welcome twenty percent off. Fill up your cart, don't mess up,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: don't mess up, don't mess up. The next thing, let's
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: talk about the tour. If you haven't, I know this
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: is all things. Give them Lala that, Give them La La.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Brand new tour is coming up. If you haven't purchased
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: your tickets, go to give them live dot com. We're
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: kicking off the tour in Irvine. Then we're going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale, Clearwater, Orlando, Hotlanta, Nashville, New Orleans, Huon, Austin,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: and we will wrap it up in Dallas, Texas. So exciting.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Should I wear cowboy boots when I'm in Texas? For Houston, Austin, Dallas,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I feel like I should.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: You should, and honestly probably for Nashville as well.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Oh that's right, because they're kind of hell be sad.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: No matter where you're from, you just can't, right, That's
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: like the center of country music. Yeah. Can I tell
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: you what I want to do in Nashville? Yes? Is
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Carrie Underwood from Nashville. She is, Okay, So at the
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: end of every city, I want to play like a
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: song by an artist that's from that city, but have
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: it be like super badass. So I want to play
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Carrie Underwood's Ah Doug Cheats at the very end like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: a little sing along. I feel like that would be fun.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I love that at the end. Or do you walk
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: out to it?
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Ooh, Jessica. These are all things that we're gonna have
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: to keep a secret so that my people show up
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: and are super surprised.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Love that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I love that too, So again, get your your beauty
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: goods at give them Lala dot com, use podcast twenty
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: for twenty percent off and go to give them live
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: to get your tour tickets so that I can play
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: with you. Do we have voicemails? We do. Let's do
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: voicemails before we have my epic guest on. We have
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Tina Swiften on the podcast today. She is super inspirational
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: and she is an expert on narcissism. And I have
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: gotten so many dms about how people are like, please
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: have someone on to talk about narcissism because it is
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: everywhere right now and no one talks about it. So
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about it. Yeah, So after we
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: do the voicemails. We'll take a short break and then
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: we'll have Tina on.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: Hey Lala, this is Ray. I'm from Texas. I have
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: a best friend who is an alcoholic in recovery. She's
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: almost two years sober, and my brother is currently in
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: rehab and I was just wondering what is some of
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: the best ways that I can support them and their
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: journey into being sober. Thank you so much.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I love you, Ray, I love this question. Congratulations to
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: your friend who has two years that's incredible. And your
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: brother who's being proactive and getting help. I'm sending him
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: all of my love and positive vibes and prayers. I
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: would say that supporting them would be first of all,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: not taking them anywhere that they're triggered to drink. Don't
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: keep alcohol in your house or if you're a drinker,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: if they come over, put it away. You just don't
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: want them to feel like it's there's the bottle and
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: it it's talking to me and it is like I'm
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: feeding for it. You know, my mouth starts watering. And also,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous support. I don't know if
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: your friend is in the program or if your brother
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: will be in a program. I'm a firm believer of
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: the program. If they are, I would say, offer to
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: go to an open meeting. And open meeting is where
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: you can take someone with you who may or may
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: not be sober and just be that support of someone
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: who when they are with you, it's not someone who
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: they went and drank or were drinking with. It's really
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: hard to be a support to someone who is an alcoholic.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: It really is, because you feel like you're walking on eggshells.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I've watched it with people around me. They're like, I
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: do you care if I drink right now? And I
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: would say, my big, big, biggest thing, ask them, how
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: can I support you in this moment? I love that communication. Communication.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: They may say, I just want you to proceed as usual.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be like this weirdo where it's
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: like you feel like you have to hide your bottles.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: You know they may not want you to do that,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: so ask them. I hope that this was helpful. Was
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: this helpful to you, Jess?
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: It was helpful because I actually have alcoholics in my
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: family who are out alcoholics who are you know, in
• 6:22
  Speaker 5: recovery and not my immediate family, my bigger circle family,
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: and that's really helpful. I've never gone to an open meeting,
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: and I've actually never gone to alan On.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: That's what it's called correct, Yes, is that?
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: How do you feel that's been helpful for people in
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: your life if they've gone or.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: You know, I have never been to an alan On meeting,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: and I don't have anyone in my circle that's been
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: to an alan On meeting, but I have friends that
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: have been, and they say that it's extremely helpful because
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: you're placing yourself in a room full of people who
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: understand you know, you could be from completely different backgrounds, places,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: whatever it may be, and you're there for one purpose
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: and one purpose only, and it's the same as everyone
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: else in the room. Yeah, that makes you feel like
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: you have a bond with people. And I'm a firm
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: believer of if you're recovering from drugs or alcohol, or
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: you have been affected by someone who's an addict, get
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: in a room. Don't let them scare you. Because it
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't look like it looks on TV. But you actually
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: feel leaving, You leave feeling amazing.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it does look scary on TV.
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: It looks very serious and dark, and I always picture
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: it taking place in a church, and I'm like.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Wells and it takes. There are some that take place
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: at a park, you know, like, yeah, it's there are donuts,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: which is awesome. Okay, I'm there. Love the donuts coomy, Like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: I love that part. But no, there's like I always
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: get a good chuckle out of the meetings, you know,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: because it's just people telling their stories who have come
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: out on top, and you're like, oh my gosh, the
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: fact that we're talking about such a serious topic but
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: we're remembering it and we can like get a laugh
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: out of it. Yeah, because we've come so far. Get
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: in the rooms. Get in the rooms. That's great. And
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: by the way, you can do it on Zoom now too,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: you don't even have to be physically in the room.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been zooming. I've been zooming for quite some time.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I love it at Zoom. It's funny because you look
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: at all the squares and everyone's like in their bathroom, Like, well,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: this is such a vibe.
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: So you've been in perfectly with your gratolic bathroom.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: We love that. Okay.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Next voicemail, Hi, Lala, this is Anna and I wanted
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: to give you a huge. Thank you for having on
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: Bobby Brink and shedding light on animal issues, plus your
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: support and concern for animal welfare shows so much about
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: you and I really appreciate that. And a question I
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: have for you is what is something or different things
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: that you're really looking forward to doing with when she's older.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: I think every stage is fun, every age is fun.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: It's all wonderful and it is an honor to be
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: a parent. So I am so happy that you have
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: her and I love hearing about her. So thank you
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: and take care bye.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Lalla Anna. Thank you so much for calling in. I'm
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: thrilled that you enjoyed the Bobby Brink podcast. That was
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: one that I was super excited for because I don't
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: think that animals in captivity is spoken about nearly enough.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: It's only really a well known thing if you're crazy
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: about like freeing the orcas, let the big cats go,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: all of the above. With Ocean, I will definitely be
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: taking her when she can walk to empty the tanks protests,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: because before COVID, I used to do that all the time,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: and I was this like I would literally have like
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: head to toe free the orcas, Garret. I would walk
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: on the Santa Monica Pierre and be like, we wouldn't
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: keep your kids in bathtubs? Why would you keep the
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: orcas in a tang would you really want?
• 10:05
  Speaker 6: Like?
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, person where they're in, the.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Person on the Santa Monica pre handing out flyers, one
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: guy through his to the ground. And that's the guy
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: when I started because I was like, how would you
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: feel if I kept you in a bathtub for your
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: entire life? Yeah, that's what they do to these orcas.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: So what they do to these whales, you know, yeah, dolphins.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: So I picked it up and I handed in and
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I said, if you don't want it, throw it away
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: behind my back. You know, I don't do it right
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: in front of you. But I will definitely be taking
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: her to do all of that stuff, you know. That's sweet.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I'll take her to fucksy world protests. Now.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I love that you and your mom bondo for that too.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: That's a great thing.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Well leave the words for the Humane Society. So she's
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: like all about being a part of the greatness that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: is the well being of animals. Yeah, but the one
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: thing that I'm so I have to share this about ocean.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Ocean has sixteeth. Now, okay, and she's a biter. She's
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: a biter. I don't know how to stop her from
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: doing it. She's only nine months and I looked at
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: my arm the other day. I had her in my
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: lap and I was trying to file her nails down
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: because anyone who has babies just come. I'm telling you,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: you have to do it like every other day because
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: the corners grow and she rubs her eyes so she'll
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: have like a little nick in the corner of her eye.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: And that's what I know. I need to find the
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: culprit of this. So I file her nails and she's
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: biting my arm. I have bite marks up and down
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: my arm and I don't know how to stop it.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: So if anybody knows how to stop a ten month
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: old almost from biting, please call into eight six y
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: six La La Pod. I need to know.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I'm dying to hear this.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So she's a bier right now. But when she's able,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: I really want to put her into co ed soccer
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: because there's something about the little shin pads that make
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: me so happy.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Running around and then kicking into the wrong goal.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so cute. That's what I'm looking forward to the
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: most is putting her in sports that is going to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: be really cute. Yes, and going to practice and setting
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: out my fold out chair and like it's my day
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: to do treats. Soccer mom, Yes, I can't wait. And
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: every Saturday is game day. I'll get at her level
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and be like, you got this, babe, You've got this.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I may even be the coach if they'd let me.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, that would be so fun.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: That would be so cool.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Did you play soccer?
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I played everything. I don't know if my mom was
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: like just trying to get me out of the house,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: but I literally never had five minutes. I was like, really,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: get your tennis racket, and then make sure you have
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: your te ball stuff, and do you have your stuff
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: for dance, and then after that we'll headed out to
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: play some more volleyball. And I didn't have five minutes.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Oh man, it was exhausting.
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: You tried it all, and so at least your mom
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: could say, well, she's not destined to be in the
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: Olympics because we tried it and it didn't work out.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: We tried everything, And can I tell you what I
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: love about my mom is there were things like piano.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I wanted to do piano I told my dad I
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: wanted a baby grand He got it for me so sweet.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: And I told my mom I hated piano, and she said,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: you committed to it, so you will continue to do it.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: And she gave me a date. We looked at the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: calendar and she said, if you don't like it at
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: this time, what was it like?
• 13:25
  Speaker 7: A year?
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I think I have to do it for a whole year.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: If you don't like it at this time next year,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: then you can stop. And she made me go.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: And did that time hit the next year? And you
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: were like, great, can and I can stop?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Got the fuck out. And now I watch Alicia Keys
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, why did I not keep doing it?
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: As if I was ever going to be Alicia Keys
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: it could have been. No, that's God given. You can't.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: You can't learn that shit, Jess, You could, can you?
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know. No, I don't know either. Yeah, like
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: you can't just like learn to be Selene Deon, Like
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: God gave that to you. You're Celene deonr Tank.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, all right, last voicemail.
• 14:03
  Speaker 7: Hey Laala, this is Erica calling from Chicago, Illinois. I
• 14:07
  Speaker 7: absolutely love the podcast, love listening to you and love
• 14:11
  Speaker 7: how absolutely badass and you have become after everything that's
• 14:16
  Speaker 7: kind of going on in your life. But anyway, I
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: wanted to quickly ask, where are you going to have
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: merch come out? I'm so excited to see what else
• 14:24
  Speaker 7: you come out with. I didn't get a chance to
• 14:26
  Speaker 7: get a brand new sweatshirt since they were sold out,
• 14:30
  Speaker 7: so I absolutely love if you came out with new merch.
• 14:33
  Speaker 7: Thank you. Can't wait to listen to next week's podcast.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Erica. I am so glad that you like the merch.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: The merch is something I'm proud of. I think it's
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: super cute. I was obsessed with the fact that everyone
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: loved the brand new merch, and we're coming out with
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: it again, like this was like a little test run.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Let's see how it does. I'm all about let's see
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: how it does. Do people fuck with it? People fucks
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, So we're coming out with more brand
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: new hoodies, different colors. I think people liked the light pink,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: so we'll come back with that too, And then I
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: have a really amazing merch coming out that will also
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: be available on tour.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Woo.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: It's so good, guys, it's so good good.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I know the merch is everything. So thank you so
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: much for asking about the merch Erica. I'm so happy
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: you like it. We are going to cut to a
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: short break and we wi bit bit bit, and when
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: we come back, we have Tina swiftin. All right, you guys,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: we are back and this is a podcast episode and
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: guest that so many of you have been begging for
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: and I'm so excited that it's finally happening. We have
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Tina Swiften and she is an expert on narcissism. So Tina,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Give Them While of podcast.
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here because I've
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: followed a little bit of you know that it's becomes
• 16:00
  Speaker 6: such a topic in today's world. You know, sometimes it's
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: overused and misused. But I'm overall so thankful that this
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: topic has had such a presence because it's so important
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: that we're talking about it, that we're educating in the
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: next generation on it. Because I surely wasn't aware of
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: the red flags and all of those things, which is
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: how I ended up in this situation. But here we are,
• 16:33
  Speaker 6: and I'm excited.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited as well. So I know a bit
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: about your background and how you became an expert on
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: narcissism and would you say that this is something that
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you became passionate about and warning people after your story?
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: How what happened in your life where you realized you
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: were with a narcissist, knew you had to get out
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: walk us down that road with you.
• 16:57
  Speaker 6: I met a person back in two thousand. I was
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: actually twenty six years old. Now what I see it
• 17:04
  Speaker 6: to be as love bombing. Back then, I just thought, Wow,
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: I am finally in an adult relationship with a man
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: who knows how to treat someone. And for me, it
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: wasn't about the material things, it wasn't about the money.
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: It was very much, you know, he seemed to care,
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: you know, to an extreme amount, something I had never
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: experienced before, and you know, hanging on my every word
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: and wanting to know everything about me. And I felt like,
• 17:42
  Speaker 6: you know, I was up on a pedestal and that
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: someone you know, finally accepted me and was loving me
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: for who I am. And it was a whirlwind romance.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: If I mentioned, you know, I would love to go
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: to Seattle the next day, I would have plane tickets
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: on my pillow to go to Seattle. You know, if
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: I happened to walk by a store and see a
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: pair of shoes and comment on them, they would be wrapped,
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: you know, and presented to me the next day. It
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: was overwhelming. Now I understand what love bombing is. That
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: was the goal. Your head is spinning, you can't you know,
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: you're so that the attention is so much that you
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: truly can't think, And that's their goal. So yeah, I
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: found myself in this whirlwind romance that moved so fast.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I relate to your story. I feel like you're actually
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: telling mine and with people who have you know, I've
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: shared a little bit about my experience with my relationship
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and how it came to be and how it ended,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and there are so many women who have had the
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: exact same thing. And I think that's why, you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: they've been begging for certain guests on the podcast. So
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: at what point in time you did you have children
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: with this person?
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: So we did. We were married in a year and
• 19:16
  Speaker 6: a half, and you know, in line with the whirlwind romance,
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: he wisked me away to Maui and proposed to me
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: while we were there. And then the next line after
• 19:28
  Speaker 6: the proposal was let's just get married while we're here
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: and not tell anybody. So we got married three days
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: later in Maui, and you know, it's this, You're caught
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: up in this. You know, it's hard to explain to people.
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: You know, this love bombing. This you feel it's authentic,
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: you believe it's real, but it's all a game to
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: the other party, and that's hard to come to grips
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: with that. You know, you're falling in love with a facade.
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: Hindsight on that is twenty twenty. So we got married
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: in Maui in two thousand and one, and then you
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: slowly this shift starts happening. You know, in the beginning,
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: the good is up here, and you know, then you
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: start seeing little things creep in and what I can
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: now see as red flags. But when you're in it,
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: you're kind of I remember thinking to myself, no one's perfect,
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: and we all have our things, and you those that's
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: where the excuses start, and you go, you know, if
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: I'm expecting perfection, I'm being unrealistic. You know, we all
• 20:41
  Speaker 6: bring our baggage in and you excuse away those little
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: things that start creeping in. And for most people who
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: have been targeted by a narcissist. They go after people
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: who are the exact opposite of themselves, who exude positivity
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: and confidence and all of those, you know, the positive
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: traits honesty, compassion, empathy, and so you know, when those
• 21:11
  Speaker 6: little things creep in, all of those traits that we
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: as targets bring into that equation work in their favor.
• 21:20
  Speaker 6: So you excuse those things, and as time goes on,
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: those things start to build a little bit. But by
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: the time you recognize that there's a serious problem, you know,
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: you're in such a deep fog because it's confusing. You know,
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: when the big red flags present themselves, you go back
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: to but he was such an amazing person, and he
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: said these things and he did these things, And we're
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: projecting our own authentic, positive qualities onto someone who's not
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: deserving of those things. So that's another area where we'rek's
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: using bad behavior and going but at his pore, I
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: know who he is. He's all those things he sold
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: me on in the beginning. And then by the time
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: the bad, you know, outweighs the good and that pendulum shifts,
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: you're so deep into it and in this state of
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: confusion that you know, you start thinking am I the problem,
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: and that's part of the psychological manipulating and gas lighting
• 22:29
  Speaker 6: that takes place over time. It's insidious, It creeps in
• 22:34
  Speaker 6: and you don't even recognize what it is because you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: we've never been taught any of these things. We're only
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: now starting to talk about narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: and emotional manipulation.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: I can think back to my marriage two thousand and eight.
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: I found myself in a really dark place in my
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: marriage because the lies had presented themselves to the point
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: where I couldn't deny them. I found out he had
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: ran us up over a million dollars in debt. I
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: can't even to this day grasp that dollar amount when
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: it comes to debt. I mean that I don't like
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: having a credit card with five thousand dollars, you know,
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: owing to somebody. So to find out that I don't
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: even know who I married, who I fell in love with,
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: that I fell in love with a facade, a con artist.
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: But by the time reality truly hit me in the
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: face and I couldn't deny it or excuse it anymore.
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: I had two little girls that were under the age
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: of two and four. I mean they were babies, and
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: over time the uneven playing field and the dynamic and
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: I love what you talk about about. You know, you
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: all you had a plan b you you know, financially,
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: had secured yourselves. I that's one of the biggest mistakes
• 24:11
  Speaker 6: I ever made, was completely turning over the financial situation
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: to my husband. So by the time, you know, two
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: thousand and eight came and I just I truly thought
• 24:25
  Speaker 6: it was me like, I'm going to go to counseling.
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: I'm going to figure out what what I what I'm doing.
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: You know what's wrong?
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Was that his idea for you to go see a therapist.
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: I had been begging for us to go to couples
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: therapy forever, and he would constantly tell me, these aren't
• 24:45
  Speaker 6: my issues. You know, your mom was bipolar. Your you
• 24:49
  Speaker 6: know you have a history of mental illness in your family.
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: You know, to him, he knew that my biggest button
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: was my mom and bipolar. She committed suicide, and he knew,
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: you know, they know where your jugular is emotionary, and
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: so if I cried over our dog dying, he would say,
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: you're bipolar. You know, you should look into this. So
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: over time and he knew that was my greatest fear,
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: was turning out like my mom, and he knew how
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: to use that in a way to destroy me. So
• 25:33
  Speaker 6: by the time I ended up on a therapist couch,
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: it was after begging him for a long time to
• 25:40
  Speaker 6: go to therapy with me and him refusing. And I
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: still remember calling around randomly just trying to find a therapist,
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: and this lady actually answered the phone and said, I
• 25:53
  Speaker 6: had a cancelation today this afternoon. If you want to
• 25:57
  Speaker 6: come in today, let's talk. And I went in there
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: and I just remember being so distraught and her she
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: heard me. I emotionally vomited in this woman's office and
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: basically she said to me, you're not the problem. And
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: I can't diagnose this person. I don't know him, but
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: I want you to read something. And she walked across
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: the room, brought back the DSM five and basically had
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: me read the excerpt on narcissistic personality disorder.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Wow. The fact that she that it shook because what
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I've read and I don't know if this is correct,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: but there are not many therapists. I believe it was
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: around five percent of therapists are actually familiar and well
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: versed in narcissism.
• 26:47
  Speaker 6: Right, So they're training and I've talked to a lot
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: of psychologists about this. They skim right past personality disorders.
• 26:55
  Speaker 6: I mean, they read the textbook definition of what it means.
• 26:59
  Speaker 6: But in my experience, unless a therapist has personally walked
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: this path, either with a narcissistic parent or a partner
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: or a family member, I don't think they can truly get,
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: you know, the intricacies that are in play in these situations.
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: So now I understand that I found the rare unicorn
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: of the therapy world. And in sure enough, it was
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: because this lady had personally experienced it in her life.
• 27:35
  Speaker 6: But here's the thing. When she told me that, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: I used to be a fixer, and so when she
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: told me this is what you're dealing with, I actually
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: got excited. I was like, oh my god, we have
• 27:48
  Speaker 6: a label, we have a title.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do?
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: How do we fix him?
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Right? Like you thought it was a project, right, And.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: So now I can look back and go, oh, you
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: have sweet little like I just want to go back
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: in time and hug myself and go, h you know.
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: I actually went home to him that night and said
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: she thinks you're a narcissist, Like, let's fix this, and
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: so we looked it up together, we googled it, and
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: back then we're talking two thousand and eight, there was
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: nothing out there on this topic. You know, you could
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: find the definition of it, but no one was talking
• 28:29
  Speaker 6: about it. There were no resources. And so I still
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: remember when he read the descriptor and he goes, well,
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: you know, that sounds like my dad, but that doesn't
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: sound like me. But even still back then, in my
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: rose colored glasses optimistic mind, I was like, Okay, we
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: are making progress because he and his dad are the
• 28:51
  Speaker 6: same person. So if he has recognized this in his dad,
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: we are on the right track, right, Yeah.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: And is narcissism something that can be cured?
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: No, zero cure there. And I'll tell you, with the
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: healing that I've done and now that my kids are safe,
• 29:12
  Speaker 6: I have compassion. I do because I can't imagine, you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: having any type of diagnosis where someone tells me there's
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: literally nothing we can do for you. You know, there's no
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: And I want to preface I'm not a mental health professional.
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: I'm not qualified to diagnose anybody. Obviously, much of this
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: is my own research over the past decade and learned experience.
• 29:39
  Speaker 6: But you know, you a therapist, all they can do
• 29:44
  Speaker 6: with a narcissist is teach them essentially how to act.
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: So they're actors in the world. They're going out there
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: and they're role playing.
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 29:54
  Speaker 6: I've talked to narcissists who say, if I'm going to
• 29:58
  Speaker 6: a wedding, I'll watch a wedding scene on TV to
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: study how people act at weddings so I know, or
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: at funerals, like what is the appropriate because they truly
• 30:12
  Speaker 6: aren't capable of connecting to that level to where it
• 30:17
  Speaker 6: just comes naturally to them. They truly do, you know, study,
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: And it's true of sociopaths, and I think with the narcissist,
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: the higher they are on the scale of narcissism, the
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: more that applies to where they truly they are actors.
• 30:35
  Speaker 6: They're walking through life, playing everybody around them. It's like
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: a big chess game to them.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I've done some research. Obviously, you're the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: expert in this between the two of us, and I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: sure a lot of others. But I've been following this
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: doctor on social media and she describes narcissist as using
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: people like you and I as an energy source basically
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: morph into whoever you are to get what they need.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: And they have they don't have that part of them
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: where they can have empathy or sympathy. It's always what
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: can you do for me? And they will stop at
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: nothing to make sure that they are never seen for
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: who they truly are, right.
• 31:20
  Speaker 6: And they become you know, I know, looking back, you
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: know I was very you know, I was the social one.
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: He was very socially awkward, and so he gravitated towards
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: people me or other you know, I can't say friends,
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: because any of his friends or their friends are very superficial.
• 31:43
  Speaker 6: It's very surface level. It is what can you do
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: for me? And they have the ability to walk into
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: a crowd at a dinner party or whatnot, and they
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: know who to let know they're going to pick up
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: the tab and pay for everybody. You know, it's who's
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: going to so advance them or tell everybody or they
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: can impress. I mean, it's from a psychological standpoint, it's
• 32:09
  Speaker 6: absolutely fascinating to watch and to study, but when it's
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: your life, there's nothing fascinating about it.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more and you know, you
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: said something that I relate to when you started talking
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: about your story. It's a whirlwind and before you know it,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: you're so deep into it. And do you think once
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: you had kids is when you started seeing things a
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: little bit differently where you I feel like children really
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: open our eyes as mothers. There's just something that happens
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to us where we're just hyper sensitive to what's going
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: on in the world and what's going on in our home.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Did that happen to you?
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: Absolutely? My mind was obsessed with food and body image
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: and you know, buying me books on the perfect abs
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: two weeks after I had had a C section and
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: given birth, you know. So so when all of those
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: things that I had lived and hurt me so deeply
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: started affecting my daughters, like when he would say, are
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: you going to really let her eat fetucini? And she
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: was four, that's where the mama bear and me went, oh, no,
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: you're not. You know, when it's one thing if I'm
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: in the fog and I am experiencing this psychological abuse
• 33:33
  Speaker 6: and emotional abuse, but you mess with my little girls
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: and you have no idea. The claws are out. And
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: those were my wake up calls. Was you know, when
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: I and when I would realized that. You know, for one,
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: he was gone all the time, so I was I
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: considered my nanny as my co parent.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: You know, I had an appointment.
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: If I had to go anywhere I called my nanny,
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: I would. He would have been so far down on
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: my list of resources during my marriage, for one, because
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: I didn't trust that he could be present with them.
• 34:14
  Speaker 6: He was going to be on the phone, he was
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: going to be on the computer, he was going to
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: be trying to run on the treadmill, you know, while
• 34:20
  Speaker 6: my two year old's choking. So it was you know,
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: during my marriage, I was able to shelter my daughters
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: from so much, but as they got older and more aware,
• 34:33
  Speaker 6: when I started realizing that they were going to be
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: viewing how he spoke to me, what he did to me,
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: and thinking that that was normal and that I was
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: creating a foundation for my little girls to grow go
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: up into the world and feel that this was normal
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: and this is what marriage was about. That's where it
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: really hit me hard. And you know, after I heard
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: those words from my thererapist, you know that he was
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: likely a narcissist or she even said possibly a sociopath.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I've heard they go from from therapists, like I said,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the small percentage that are very well versed on this topic.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: They have said narcissism and sociopaths go hand in hand.
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: So not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissists.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for clarifying.
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: That it's it's anti social personality disorder. They're all in
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: the same clump of cluster B disorders, so it's histrionic,
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: borderline narcissism, and then antisocial, which the street term for
• 35:41
  Speaker 6: that is sociopath. And yeah, so you know now, looking back,
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: I truly do believe my ex is probably more in
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: that anti social category, but again, not qualified to diagnose him.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I love what you said about your children
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: and how I get it. Mama bear is a real thing.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: My claws come out to You can do whatever you
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: want to me, but when it comes to ocean, I
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: will claw your eyes out. So you sitting there going
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I will be damned if my children grow up and
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: think that this is how a man should be treating them.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Was there ever a part of you that said, you know,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I need to protect him, because I don't want to
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: speak on the child or the father of my child
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this way, Like was there a part of you that
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: was that was nervous, like you wanted to create him
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: in this light where they didn't think a certain way
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: about him, or were you so gung ho about I
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: can't let my child find someone like this and think
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: that it's healthy.
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: So I navigated that so carefully, because you know, I
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: back then, truly I understood narcissism enough to know what
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: I was dealing with. I had no idea that once
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: the separation started that my children would become ponds. I
• 37:20
  Speaker 6: was naive in believing that because he had zero connection
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: with them during the marriage, zero bond, zero any interaction
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: unless people were around or a camera I was on
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: that was And so I didn't really I hadn't put
• 37:36
  Speaker 6: all those pieces together. So in my naive mind, I thought,
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: when we separate, he's going to be forced to step
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: up to the plate and be a dad because he's
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: going to have to be one on one with them.
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: I didn't understand how dangerous that actually is. Once I
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: started educating myself on that, and I refer to it
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: as post separation abuse, I actually have a people can
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: look it up. It's postseparation abuse dot com. It's literally
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: the playbook of the narcissist. I didn't realize. I thought
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: that we're going to get divorced, and I'm going to
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: get the kids like ninety percent of the time, because
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: I've raised them ninety nine percent of the time, So
• 38:22
  Speaker 6: why wouldn't we just do that. I didn't think he'd
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: want anything to do with them. I didn't realize that
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: the playbook of the narcissist is to come for the
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: kids because they know that's the number one way to
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: hurt you, but to maintain control, and so the children
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: become their pawns and their weapons. And I had no idea.
• 38:47
  Speaker 6: So once I started realizing that the family court system
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: didn't care that he had never participated, all they cared
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: about was that he showed up. You know, there's so
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: many deadbeat parents in the system that the narcissist gets
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: five gold stars in the eyes of the court many times.
• 39:09
  Speaker 6: You know, it's not the end all be all. It
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: takes time to chip away at that. But initially they
• 39:16
  Speaker 6: were willing to give him a chance to be a
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: parent even though he hadn't, and that was probably the
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: biggest gut punch for me of all, and I, you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: have never I was raised by my dad, and so
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: my strategy and it wasn't strategy at the time, but
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: it was just very much educating my daughters on what
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: red flags are in general, whether we're talking about the
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: three year old in preschool who pulled her hair or
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: you know, the six year old who stole a cookie
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: out of her lunch box. You know, it became you know,
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: what are boundaries where are I have boundaries that are mental.
• 39:58
  Speaker 6: I have boundaries that are mo I have boundaries that
• 40:01
  Speaker 6: are physical. You know, teaching my daughters all of the
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: lessons that I didn't learn which allowed me to end
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: up with this type of person, and instilling in her
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: in them what healthy looks like. And so if I
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: were in a restaurant and someone was speaking very poorly
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: to a waitress, I would bring that up in conversation
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: with my kids and say, when someone speaks to any
• 40:30
  Speaker 6: human like that, that is a huge red flag for
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: me in that person. And so I used every day
• 40:39
  Speaker 6: conversations with my kids at their level, whether it was
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: TV shows or something we heard on the radio, to
• 40:47
  Speaker 6: teach them what healthy looks like, and then to also
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: model it myself and letting them know that, you know,
• 40:55
  Speaker 6: when you talk, mom is here, I am engaged, I
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: am listening, I will your voice is the most important
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: voice in my world. And you know, there's a lot
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: of you. It's exhausting because you're countering the damage that
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: the narcissist is doing to them. But I am a
• 41:15
  Speaker 6: firm believer that a child only needs one healthy parent,
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: one rock to turn out okay, even if you do
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: have a narcissist or a sociopath on the other end.
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: So my strategy has always been to, you know, teach
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: them the lessons I wish I would have had, but
• 41:37
  Speaker 6: never directed to their dad. But I will tell you,
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: when they started connecting the dots on their own, it
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: was more powerful than anything I could have ever said.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Wow, that just gave me chills. And how old are
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: your children now?
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: We just went and looked at colleges in San Francisco
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: this weekend.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, they're they're grown up.
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, almost fifteen and almost seventeen.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I want to take a short break and then
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I want to come back and pick your brain somewhere,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: So we'll be right back with Tina Swan. We are
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: back with someone who is absolutely brilliant in my eyes.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: And again, you guys have been begging for Tina Swan
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: and here she is. Hi, Tina hy So you just
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: sent you just went and looked at colleges. I'm sure
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: that that was beyond hard? Was it?
• 42:36
  Speaker 6: It is? But I am you know it goes back
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: to I truly believe takes one healthy parent. And you know,
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: I am a success story in family court because of
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: the way I approached it, because of the way I
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: navigated it, and my kids are safe today. We've I
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: successfully terminated did his parntal rights, which is almost unheard
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: of in the family court system.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Can you how long did that take you to? I mean,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I know it was a long journey for you. Do
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: you mind me asking did your ex was? I know
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: that he wasn't present, but along with him not being present,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: was there any you know, drug or alcohol abuse, sex
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: addiction was there? And like what else can you tell
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: us that that he kind? Like what did he possess
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: in this narcissistic behavior?
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: So when our custody battle started, he was actually going
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: for full custody. He wanted to take.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: My daughter custody.
• 43:47
  Speaker 6: He would have rather paid a nanny to raise my
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: kids because he knew that's that would hurt me. So
• 43:55
  Speaker 6: I have an autoimmune disease. He tried to use my
• 43:59
  Speaker 6: physic disabilities, you know, my my mother's mental health, which
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: I have a clean bill. You know I have my shit.
• 44:08
  Speaker 6: Blame me, but you know nothing. He wanted one hundred
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: percent custody of my kids. I ended up starting my
• 44:16
  Speaker 6: custody battle with one hundred and seventy eight dollars to
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: my name because he had financially devastated us. He put
• 44:24
  Speaker 6: us in debt to such a degree that we lost
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: our house, our businesses, our cars. My cars were being
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: repossessed out of my driveway. I was so in the
• 44:35
  Speaker 6: dark about our finances that by the time I left
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: or the marriage ended, I had nothing, no savings account,
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: no college fund to pull from from my kids, no
• 44:47
  Speaker 6: no retirement. I had one hundred and seventy eight dollars.
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: So I'm going to food pantries to feed my kids.
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: Back then, after living in a mini mansion and driving
• 44:58
  Speaker 6: a Mercedes to you know, trying to figure out where
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: my groceries are coming from. He destroyed me. So I
• 45:07
  Speaker 6: went into the court battle with no attorney. I went
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: through the entire court battle until the last ten years.
• 45:15
  Speaker 6: The year ten without an attorney. I represented myself in
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: family court and I was up against him his attorneys.
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: Over the years, he circled through, cycled through them. And
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: it was the most daunting thing I've ever been through,
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: because if you're mad at me, I will literally be
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: awake tonight worrying about it. You know, I am conflict
• 45:40
  Speaker 6: avoidant by nature to a fault, actually, and so I
• 45:45
  Speaker 6: was thrust into this family court system. I had never
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: stepped foot in family court. I had no idea. I
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: was naive, believing that they just protected kids, and so
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: it was a huge wake up call to me that
• 46:00
  Speaker 6: parntal rights carry more weight than child safety. I started
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: going to sit in the courtroom and observe proceedings when
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: it wasn't my case. I started studying different cases that
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: I would see in the courtroom to understand how attorneys
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: filed things, what language they used, what case law they cited.
• 46:22
  Speaker 6: I had to become an expert while working full time
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: and having my kids the majority of the time, you know,
• 46:28
  Speaker 6: I had to become an expert on the court system
• 46:31
  Speaker 6: and just sitting in court and watching how attorneys said things,
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: studying my judge. And you know, that's a mistake a
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: lot of people make, is that they don't research who
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: the judge is, what the judge's biases are. You could
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: walk into five different courtrooms with the exact same case,
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: and you're going to leave with five different outcomes based
• 46:56
  Speaker 6: on who you are in front of. So I became
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: an expert in my local court system. I'm here in
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: San Louis Obispo, California, and just really understanding that to
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: the court, these are just business transactions and emotions are
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: best kept on your therapist couch, and that you have
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: to you know, you're both under a microscope. Even if
• 47:23
  Speaker 6: this other person is the worst person in the world,
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: the court doesn't know either of you, and so how
• 47:31
  Speaker 6: we present is critical. And so you know that my
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: journey started in nine and officially terminated parntal rights in
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: twenty nineteen. But I will say there was a big
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: gap when my kids had no contact, you know, from
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: in twenty fourteen, after our second child, custody evaluation, minors,
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: counsel being appointed, all this stuff finally said no more,
• 47:59
  Speaker 6: and so my kids didn't see him again after twenty fourteen.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: And they haven't seen him since twenty fourteen.
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: And they don't want to. They want absolutely nothing to
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: do with him. But back to your question, because I
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: went off on a rant.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: No, I love it, this is I'm I'm all here
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: for it. You talk freely.
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: It was alcohol for him, and you know, I you know,
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: the reality is narcissists are their own worst enemy. They
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: you know, you have to go back to baseline, what
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: it was like before the court that separation, any of
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: that happened. You know, if I say my ex wasn't
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: involved ninety five percent of the time or ninety eight
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: percent of the time, that's their mo that's their baseline.
• 48:46
  Speaker 6: That's how much the kids really matter to them. So
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: but when they're getting the speed from the breakup or
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: you know, publicity or whatever it is they're going to
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: feed keeps them fueled. And so in my situation, the
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: court kept him going. But when there was a lull
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: between court dates, like we didn't have something scheduled for
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: six months, he would go back to his baseline behavior,
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: you know, not showing up for visits. His schedule was
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: so busy, he had to travel work, you know, but
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: in my case, a lot of it came down to alcoholism,
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: you know, because he has a problem with alcohol. He
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: was either you know, hungover or wanting his next drink
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: or drinking, and so whatever type of addiction it is,
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: whether it's sex, addiction, porn, work, exercise, you know, drugs, alcohol,
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: it keeps them from functioning at one hundred percent. So
• 49:49
  Speaker 6: a lot of times I'll say I didn't successfully protect
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: my kids because he was a narcissist. The courts don't
• 49:57
  Speaker 6: care about that at all in my kids because he
• 50:01
  Speaker 6: couldn't keep the mask on because of his addiction issues.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense, and I've actually read that as well.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: It's they use those moments of like keeping the mask
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: on as fuel. But it's something that they can't do
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: forever because who in the world can play pretend forever? Right,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Eventually they'll go back to who they really are.
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and they don't get a you know, let's let's
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: be honest. Parenting can be tedious. It is selfless work.
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: The narcissist isn't capable of truly showing up for another
• 50:37
  Speaker 6: human and devoting their one hundred percent to this amazing
• 50:41
  Speaker 6: little person. You know, there it's about the Instagram photo
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: or the you know, the self total that they can
• 50:48
  Speaker 6: promote to everybody about what a great parent they are.
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: But that's not what parenting is. The narcissist is truly
• 50:57
  Speaker 6: not capable of being.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: A parent's right. And I've, like I said, I've read that,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: and I can only imagine how terrified you were when
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: you saw that he was going for full custody. So
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: in that time period, you you leave the house, do
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: you get to take your children with you?
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: So we originally, in my naivity, had a Nestine agreement
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: because I never wanted my kids to bounce back and forth.
• 51:24
  Speaker 6: And they were so little. I mean when we truly
• 51:28
  Speaker 6: like officially separated, they were two and four. And yeah,
• 51:32
  Speaker 6: so I what, however old I was thirty four years old,
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: started CouchSurfing. You know, we had our home base and
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: he worked out of the area and he would come
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: home on Friday nights. I would leave on Friday nights
• 51:46
  Speaker 6: and go couch surf on friends' couches and then come
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: home Sunday morning and take over. And so you know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 6: that lasted for a while, and then I ended up
• 51:57
  Speaker 6: in the women's shelter with my girls. And that really
• 52:02
  Speaker 6: started our journey of terror. I mean I felt like
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: the day I got my family court case number, I
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: was also assigned my own personal terrorist.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that just sent chills up my spine.
• 52:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: So usually when when you're when you're assigned a case number,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: you know, did they grant you any type of full
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: temporary custody in that timeframe?
• 52:31
  Speaker 6: Well, the first day we were in court, the judge
• 52:34
  Speaker 6: basically said to us, and it shook me. The judge said,
• 52:40
  Speaker 6: if you two are starting your divorce this way, you're
• 52:43
  Speaker 6: in for a rude awakening. And so basically I was
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: being lumped into the high conflict category without it being warranted.
• 52:52
  Speaker 6: And in that moment, I just remember sitting there like
• 52:56
  Speaker 6: a deer in headlights. No attorney by myself literally got
• 53:00
  Speaker 6: ready that morning at the women's shelter and show up
• 53:04
  Speaker 6: in court, and it just felt like, oh my god,
• 53:07
  Speaker 6: what did I just walk into. If I'm afraid from
• 53:11
  Speaker 6: my life at the women's shelter, and the judge is saying,
• 53:15
  Speaker 6: if you too are starting this off this way, and
• 53:18
  Speaker 6: I you know, and one of the things I've come
• 53:20
  Speaker 6: to discover is that there are zero requirements for judges
• 53:27
  Speaker 6: in California to have any training on domestic violence, it's
• 53:31
  Speaker 6: a mere suggestion. So we've got people behind the bench
• 53:35
  Speaker 6: who are deciding the fate and future of our children
• 53:39
  Speaker 6: with no understanding of domestic violence. And that was very
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: apparent to me that first day. I will say that
• 53:48
  Speaker 6: they recognized that he had anger issues and that I
• 53:52
  Speaker 6: had painted enough of a picture about my concerns about
• 53:57
  Speaker 6: his alcohol use that he did and walk out with
• 54:00
  Speaker 6: fifty to fifty on that day.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: And so you know his it fluctuated over the years,
• 54:07
  Speaker 6: but he would have every weekend and then it was
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: every other weekend. And my mentality is there's nothing final
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: in family court. I refuse to accept that, you know,
• 54:20
  Speaker 6: whatever these orders are are in my child's best interest,
• 54:23
  Speaker 6: I will keep chipping away at it. If this isn't
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: my starting point, If it's you know, seventy five, twenty
• 54:30
  Speaker 6: five or whatever the percentage where you know they're dividing
• 54:33
  Speaker 6: your child like a piece of property. I know that's
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: a whole other podcast, but I refuse to accept that
• 54:41
  Speaker 6: as my final destination. Now, even if it's a final
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: custody order, my opinion is I'm going to keep chipping
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: away at it until I can put my head down
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: on the pillow at night knowing that my daughters are safe.
• 54:55
  Speaker 6: I just want to hug you through this. I'm going
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: to cry too.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: No, please do not apologize. This is It takes me
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: right back to where I was in those days and
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: it's literally the worst thing I've ever been through in
• 55:14
  Speaker 6: my life. And I one hundred percent feel where you're
• 55:18
  Speaker 6: at right now.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: You are just beyond strong and I'm so and inspiring.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: The fact that you you know the hand you were
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: dealt and one hundred and seventy eight dollars in your
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: bank account, and you fought for your children. It just
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: goes to show that a mother will stop at nothing
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: to make sure that their kid is where they should
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: be so that we can send them out into the
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: world and be healthy, beautiful human beings. You know that's
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: our only goal. Oh I'm sorry.
• 55:52
  Speaker 6: No, absolutely, no apology. You know it is. And you know,
• 55:59
  Speaker 6: going back to you saying that I'm strong, I'll tell
• 56:02
  Speaker 6: you if you would have told me that ten years ago,
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: I didn't feel strong. I truly was in survival mode.
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: Had I not journaled and blogged back then about my experience.
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: It would be a complete you know, I've shot it out,
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: Like I go back and read things that I wrote
• 56:23
  Speaker 6: in these moments. Yeah, in the beginning, and I'm like,
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: oh my god. And I didn't feel strong. I felt
• 56:33
  Speaker 6: like I have been on my floor bawling in fetal
• 56:37
  Speaker 6: position more times than you know. And I remember leaving
• 56:43
  Speaker 6: the courtroom so many times. And by that point my
• 56:47
  Speaker 6: story had been discovered and people were following, and I
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: remember feeling like a fraud because people were sending me
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: messages saying, You're so strong, you know, you're a warrior,
• 56:59
  Speaker 6: and I like, I just had a full blown panic
• 57:02
  Speaker 6: attack in the bathroom of the courthouse and then I
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: just cried for an hour fetal position in the back
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: of my car. I don't feel strong and I don't
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: feel like a warrior.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Can you look back now and say I was a
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: strong bitch?
• 57:16
  Speaker 6: Absolutely sorry. I thought I was a strong bitch and
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: absolutely one person. Yeah, and I and you know, my
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: kids when we were driving back from San Francisco this weekend,
• 57:30
  Speaker 6: and you know, his name will come up every once
• 57:34
  Speaker 6: in a while, and you know, I'm always open to
• 57:37
  Speaker 6: talking with them at their age level on the reality
• 57:41
  Speaker 6: of what they lived through and experienced. And my daughter
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: shared a memory that felt really fuzzy to me at
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: the time, but it was when they were probably three
• 57:51
  Speaker 6: and five, and it was Fourth of July weekend, and
• 57:55
  Speaker 6: I was so terrified putting them in the car that weekend.
• 57:59
  Speaker 6: And I just I knew when he was in a
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: good place and when he wasn't, and when he was
• 58:04
  Speaker 6: really unstable, and it terrified me. But your your hands
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: are tied by a broken court system that's forcing you
• 58:12
  Speaker 6: to put your little girls in this car. And my
• 58:15
  Speaker 6: daughter recounted the story where I said to her, Mom's
• 58:20
  Speaker 6: always with you. And when you see the pink fireworks
• 58:23
  Speaker 6: tonight fourth of July, every time you see a pink firework,
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: know that Mommy loves you and Mommy's sending you a
• 58:31
  Speaker 6: big hug. And that has been you know, she said,
• 58:35
  Speaker 6: like every time I see even like a pink fireworks
• 58:38
  Speaker 6: logo or something like that, like it always takes me
• 58:41
  Speaker 6: back to that, because you know, that's that connection that
• 58:48
  Speaker 6: we had is unbreakable. You know, that bond that I
• 58:52
  Speaker 6: authentically created with my kids, not because of show, not
• 58:56
  Speaker 6: because of a camera was on, not because of any
• 58:59
  Speaker 6: of that. You know, that is their foundation and no
• 59:03
  Speaker 6: one can touch that, not the court system, not a
• 59:06
  Speaker 6: narcissist that is unbreakable.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: That is beautiful, And that was like the sweetest story.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. I Before I let you go,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: can you tell our listeners some things to look out
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: for when it comes to a narcissist. What should be
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: things that they see and know that they need to
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: run away?
• 59:28
  Speaker 6: Oh, you know, there's so many.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Different it's a loaded question, not loaded, so.
• 59:33
  Speaker 6: Many different types. I highly encourage people to follow doctor
• 59:36
  Speaker 6: Romany's work because she really.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: That's how I follow. Oh, that's the doctor I find.
• 59:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, she is the most knowledgeable psychologist on this topic.
• 59:50
  Speaker 6: And you know there are so many different types. You know,
• 59:53
  Speaker 6: she talks about the communal narcissist who is the good
• 59:57
  Speaker 6: deed doer and you know, maybe run and around in
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 6: birkenstocks and you know, feeding the homeless on Saturdays, and
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: they're going to present different from a you know, very malignant,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 6: you know, loud, boisterous, over the top person. Those are
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: the ones that are easy to spot in bars, or
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 6: in restaurants or what wherever. It's paying attention to your intuition.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 6: I'll tell you I had zero attraction to my ex husband,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 6: and there was something almost repulsive about thinking about kissing him.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 6: And I kept thinking, but he's so nice and I'm
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 6: being superficial and all that. My gut was telling me
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 6: to get the fuck out, like.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: I, Oh my god, I shut up.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 6: I love it, but I will say, your gut, get
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 6: to a quiet place. And one of the biggest tests.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: Put up a boundary. If you say, you know what
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 6: I'm needing, just a week to myself where I'm going
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 6: to just shut down and be alone. See how they
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 6: react to that. My guess is you're gonna get flowers,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 6: you're gonna get poetry, you're gonna get whatever delivered. But no,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 6: like boundaries, a narcissist can't handle boundaries. And that's a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 6: good test. You know, whatever your boundary is, put it
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 6: up and see how they react. But again, words and
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 6: if words and actions are not in alignment, you know,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: that's a lot of time where you see the mask slip.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: And be aware of it.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 6: Be aware of it absolutely. How they talk to other
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 6: people in public, how they talk to people who they
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: feel are beneath them, how they put yeah down.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: I love that you said that.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 6: All of those things.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Wow, it has been such a pleasure, Tina to have
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: you on this podcast. This has to be one of
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: my most favorite episodes that we've done so far. You
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: are in absolute joy to talk to and so full
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: of information that's so value in this day and age.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: So we appreciate you.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: I am honored to be here.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, of course, and we will keep
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: in touch absolutely