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Better Than Ezra · Politix

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  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's why I think if you can do it, do it.
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  But if Republicans realize that that's the play,
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  get over the hump of these elections so that.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's why I put it after the paywall,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: because Stephen Miller does not does not pay for politics.
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  SPEAKER_01: So this intelligence is not being revealed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And nobody here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Tell him.
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  Hey everyone,
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  you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
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  This week we've got another government shutdown looming and
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  thus more struggle
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  sessions over what Democrats should do and what effective
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  opposition looks like.
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  We'll also talk about recrimination surrounding the recent
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  abundance gathering here
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  SPEAKER_00: in Washington,
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  SPEAKER_00: D.C.
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  and whether there's any common ground between warring factions
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  of liberal abundance
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  SPEAKER_00: and movement progressives.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Jeffrey Epstein.
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  SPEAKER_00: on the jobs numbers, and several different important judicial rulings.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear the whole conversation,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Politics Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Boitler.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Glacius.
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  So I have us outlined here to talk about the government
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  shutdown fight and then
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  SPEAKER_00: abundance versus progressive ink.
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  But can I lead us into all that with a quick rundown of recent
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  Trump news?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's like, hey, people ought to.
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  The ongoing existence of the federal government is just a
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  distraction from Jeffrey Epstein.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  I mean,
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  like,
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  this unusual amount happened to Donald Trump since our last
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  episode.
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  SPEAKER_00: Most of it bad, but not all.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess it depends on perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: Here's like what I think of as the good news.
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  SPEAKER_00: He mostly had a miserable week.
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  SPEAKER_00: He lost three important court cases.
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  SPEAKER_00: So he was found in California to have violated the Posse Comitatus Act.
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  An appeals court determined that his tariff regime has no basis
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  in the law.
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  SPEAKER_00: And another court nuked his shakedown of Harvard.
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  So three big cases at the sort of center of Trump's desire to
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  like cite an
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  emergency that he makes up and then take illegal action and
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  judges found against
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  SPEAKER_00: him across the board.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then jobs numbers came in super low.
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  SPEAKER_00: So 22,000 jobs on net in August as a preliminary estimate.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then revisions for the recent couple of months that drew,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it was the June numbers down into the negative.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're like,
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  SPEAKER_00: We're like,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is consistent with a recession,
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  SPEAKER_00: although I think economists wouldn't call it one yet.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then, thanks to the intrepid effort of House Democrats, we got...
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  SPEAKER_00: The 50th birthday card that Trump sent to Jeffrey Epstein,
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  complete with enigmas and wonderful secrets and small boobs and
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  a signature slash
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  SPEAKER_00: pubic bush.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's the good news.
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  Do you want to talk about any of it in greater depth before we
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  move on to the bad news?
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  thing of like this is a distraction kind of stuff has like
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  gotten so overdone that
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  it's become a joke but i i do think that these epstein
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  revelations are like a
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  reminder that like it's not just a joke like one thing that you
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  know donald trump
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  SPEAKER_01: before he was a politician was a real marketing guru
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  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Trump's whole thing as a real estate developer,
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  SPEAKER_01: as a casino entrepreneur,
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  as a guy who got out of a huge financial jam by convincing like
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  small time
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  shareholders to buy stock in a public company that he could
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  offload his debts onto,
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  SPEAKER_01: is that he is a manipulator of media attention.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is like really,
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  SPEAKER_01: really,
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  SPEAKER_01: really core,
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  much more than he's an immigration wonk or a believer in
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  conservative economic
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  SPEAKER_01: policy.
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  He's like a guy who has thought a lot over the years about
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  directing press
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  SPEAKER_01: attention in different directions.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you remember the meme?
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember the meme from like his...
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  SPEAKER_00: early in his first term,
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  SPEAKER_00: somebody tweeted,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's see old Donnie Trump wriggle his way out of this jam.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, Trump wriggles out easily.
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  SPEAKER_00: Ah, well, nevertheless.
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  But,
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  like,
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  the wriggling out is done through these kinds of manipulative
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  efforts.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  it is actually true that stuff like renaming the Department of
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  Defense the
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  SPEAKER_01: Department of War,
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  SPEAKER_01: that blowing up a Venezuelan boat,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: a lot of this...
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't want to say it's just a distraction, like people died.
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  SPEAKER_01: On that boat,
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  there are real implications to tweeting an Apocalypse Now meme
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  about the city of
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  SPEAKER_01: Chicago,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it is in part,
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  all of this stuff is in part an effort to direct our attention
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  to certain kinds of
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  SPEAKER_01: topics and away from certain other kinds of topics.
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  SPEAKER_01: And like, that is real.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is a fundamental aspect of Trump era politics.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, Democrats being feckless or pundits being dumb.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like it's challenging.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
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  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: because,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  I think that Chris Murphy in the Senate is one of the Democrats
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  who seems to have
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  more of an appetite for like not avoiding the fights that
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  Donald Trump wants to
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  SPEAKER_00: pick.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like when he was asked about like the invasion of D.C.
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  SPEAKER_00: or the occupation of D.C., he called it a stunt.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like people got upset about it.
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  And I think it like what you're talking about,
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  I think,
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  is a semantic challenge.
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  Because distraction can mean something is unimportant and
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  distraction can mean a
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  SPEAKER_00: thing that takes your attention from one object to another object.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when you're using the term in the latter way,
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  I don't find it offensive because I think Donald Trump does
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  intend to distract us.
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  But what I find puzzling is that there's lots of smart people
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  in liberal spaces,
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  SPEAKER_00: Democratic Party spaces,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we're all struggling to
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  with how to capture what Donald Trump is trying to make us do
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  with the with the
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  SPEAKER_00: gravity of the things he's doing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it shouldn't be that hard, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: here's actually where I think it's challenging is that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you if you dip into blue sky on any given day,
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  one thing that a lot of people who are active there are like
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  really into is calling
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  SPEAKER_01: out racist dog whistles.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
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  And this is a thing that like was really big on Twitter 10
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  years ago and is like in
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  SPEAKER_01: a kind of way like
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: as Democrats have become,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: the better,
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  SPEAKER_01: much better educated,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: high IQ coalition.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think about it, like, I did this in college, too, right?
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  It's like,
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  you,
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  like,
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  read the book,
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  but then you're like,
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  but what's the subtext?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: Democrats are really skilled at,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: looking at a propaganda poster that the energy department makes and,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: teasing out the nefarious fascistic propaganda.
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  implications therein and like explaining it and like you could
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  get an A from your
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  SPEAKER_01: professor on that.
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  But like I genuinely think that like that habit of mind of like
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  taking everything
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  the Trump administration says and does and like spelunking for
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  the most nefarious
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  SPEAKER_01: implications of it is like
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  a form of distraction versus a question of discipline and
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  mental fortitude and,
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  SPEAKER_01: and focus,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: So, well, there's a spectrum, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like the,
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  SPEAKER_00: the renaming the department of war,
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  SPEAKER_00: the,
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  SPEAKER_00: the memes,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like when you murder 11 people in the Caribbean,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's worse.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when you occupy Washington DC,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's I think arguably worse,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though I,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the difficulty of it.
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  And because Trump is more centralized and more singular,
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  it's just challenging.
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  Democrats find themselves trying to communicate in public about
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  questions of
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  SPEAKER_01: strategic focus,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is just inherently bad.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not how you should do that.
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  SPEAKER_01: You should just have a meeting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And decide what your strategic focus is going to be on.
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  SPEAKER_01: But...
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  SPEAKER_01: Democrats are leaderless.
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  SPEAKER_01: Democrats are subject to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: people who...
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  SPEAKER_01: So get this into the shutdown discussion,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, our friend... No, because I think this is relevant.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, Ezra Klein, in the middle of his piece...
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  SPEAKER_01: on how he thinks Democrats should handle this.
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  Ezra Klein swallowed the Boitler pill and then wrote a
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  2,500-word piece for the New
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  York Times saying Democrats should probably not give their
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  votes to fund the
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  SPEAKER_00: government without reigning in Trump some way.
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  But midway through the piece,
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  he has a line where he's like,
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  I'm not a political strategist.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is kind of like a cop-out.
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  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, Democrats don't have a president, right?
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  Like,
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  Ezra is more prominent than most of the 47 Democratic Party
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  United States senators.
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  He's more prominent than all but one of the Democratic—one or
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  two of the Democratic
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  SPEAKER_01: Party House members.
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  Whether or not he's a political and like the things that people
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  say on the
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  SPEAKER_01: Internet,
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  SPEAKER_01: like matter a lot in this day and age.
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  And so we do find ourselves in these questions of essentially
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  like negotiating in
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  SPEAKER_01: public what it is that like we are trying to say about Trump.
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  That piece by Ezra really gave me the willies because he was so
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  deep in his feelings that
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  and had a lot to say about his thoughts and disavowed being a
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  political strategist.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it led me to write a piece that I am now having second thoughts
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I didn't realize as like,
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  I've been like pretty clear in my own head about what I thought
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  should happen as of
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  SPEAKER_00: September 30th or leading up to September 30th for a while now.
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  But I saw Ezra's piece and I saw your piece and I didn't look
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  at like the timestamps.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I just thought that they came out on the same day.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize until now.
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  SPEAKER_01: Ezra told me before it ran,
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  SPEAKER_01: he didn't tell me what it was going to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he told me I was going to hate it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that got me thinking, like, what do I think about this?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so my take was,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: Democrats have really,
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  SPEAKER_01: really struggled to drive attention to their best topics.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I thought a government shutdown, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: And like, this is like the ping pong that I would say, like,
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  Eighty five percent of Democratic Party's strategic
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  conversations for the past 15
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  SPEAKER_01: years have gone in,
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  which is like what would be best for us would be if people were
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  to have a really
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  SPEAKER_01: bloodless conversation about government fiscal priorities.
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  SPEAKER_01: But like and most people agree with that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that like if you could achieve that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that would be optimal.
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  Then the problem is like you can't achieve that because it is
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  much less attention
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  SPEAKER_01: grabbing than a whole set of other things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think most people also agree with that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you're just kind of stuck in this loop,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: of like differential points of emphasis,
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  SPEAKER_01: so on and so forth.
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  One nice thing about a government shutdown is that if the
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  government is shut down,
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  there will be a lot of attention paid to the fact that the
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  government is shut down
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  SPEAKER_01: and to what the dispute leading to the shutdown is about.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a great attentional hack.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I was inclined to say that if you do a shutdown...
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  SPEAKER_01: and you pick your fight over these healthcare funding issues,
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  that guarantees that you will have a lot of attention paid to
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  the healthcare
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  SPEAKER_01: funding issues.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it is also- Just say real quick, you're specifically talking about-
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  SPEAKER_00: These bonus ACA tax credits.
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  So Obamacare provides subsidies to people buying their
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  insurance on the private market.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then Joe Biden created a bonus level above that during the pandemic.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that extra money is about to expire.
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  SPEAKER_01: Expire, yes.
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  And so the the idea that you propounded was we can bring the
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  focus to health care
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  SPEAKER_00: by if Democrats demand renewing those as as like their price for.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like if like if I just if everybody was talking about this,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: like if Elon Musk was tweeting every day,
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  SPEAKER_01: Republicans absolutely cannot extend these bonus subsidies.
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  SPEAKER_01: That just would be a great win for Democrats, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Elon Musk is too smart to ever tweet about health care funding.
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  SPEAKER_01: All he tweets about is race and crime and immigration all the time.
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  But,
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  you know,
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  my thought was like,
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  we're not going to luck into Elon Musk tweeting about it.
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  But in a government shutdown,
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  we will talk about the topic of the shutdown so we can elevate
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  it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then I had a secondary thought about this,
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  SPEAKER_01: which was that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: clearly rank and file Democrats are fired up.
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  SPEAKER_01: They want to see some fight, et cetera, et cetera.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I think the Senate caucus has heard that and is going to do a
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  government shutdown
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  SPEAKER_01: because they want to fight.
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  What I liked about the subsidy issue is that a non-zero number
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  of Republicans in
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  Congress have been telling leadership that they should extend
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  the subsidies,
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  which means that I think there's a chance Democrats could win
• 14:11
  on this issue.
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  SPEAKER_01: rather than picking a fight to show that they're fighting,
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  SPEAKER_01: but ending up losing,
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  SPEAKER_01: just like raising expectations unreasonably.
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  SPEAKER_01: Again,
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  SPEAKER_01: Ezra's piece is so big and is like so about whatever,
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  like his cosmic angst about the state of America that I feel
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  like it raises...
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  SPEAKER_01: I agree with him.
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  It would be good if Donald Trump was not sending the National
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  Guard into American
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  cities or using ICE in abusive ways or doing any of 80 billion
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  other things.
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  But doing a government shutdown where the ask is for Donald
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  Trump to start behaving
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  in an appropriate manner is not going to lead to Donald Trump
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  behaving in an
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  SPEAKER_01: appropriate manner.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I worry about this just kind of, you know, toxicity, right?
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  Like doing a shutdown over something that is not going to be
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  achievable and then
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  SPEAKER_01: ultimately surrendering.
• 15:14
  So you did a piece after Ezra's piece that like somewhat
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  changed my view of this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hell yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So can you explain what you were,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I think you made a much more less viral,
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  SPEAKER_01: but more focused.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I want to associate your idea,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just with you,
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  SPEAKER_00: but with Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer,
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  SPEAKER_00: because before you wrote,
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  they wrote a letter to Mike Johnson and John Thune saying it
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  has like like like
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  it's time to get down to brass tacks and hinting that what they
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  would want in a
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  SPEAKER_00: bipartisan budget agreement would be for Republicans to give on.
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  SPEAKER_00: These same health care credits,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Obamacare tax credits,
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  and then maybe to make some kind of commitment to not renege on
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  the budget
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  SPEAKER_00: agreement,
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  SPEAKER_00: which they did last time.
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  SPEAKER_00: They did use this process called rescission.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: They took Democratic votes.
• 16:17
  Trump signed the funding bill into law and then unilaterally
• 16:20
  cut the things that
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats had gotten included in there.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's where their heads were as of last week,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: and I thought that this was a bad sign for a couple reasons,
• 16:33
  one of which I suspect you're sympathetic to because back when
• 16:37
  the question was the
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: debt limit,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: we never really got to it.
• 16:40
  It's like if Democrats were going to demand a price for the
• 16:43
  debt limit,
• 16:43
  what would it be?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you made the – I thought that like the very well-taken point.
• 16:48
  That if you're going to say we're withholding our votes for the
• 16:51
  debt limit,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: it has to be on the basis of the debt.
• 16:56
  We're not going to increase the debt limit just so that you get
• 16:59
  the budget room
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: that you need to pass a huge tax cut for rich people.
• 17:04
  And that germaneness is a big part of what I don't like about
• 17:08
  the Jeffries Schumer
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Iglesias plan to yoke the government funding fight.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: To health care.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've had a bunch of government shutdown fights in our lives.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Gingrich shutdown.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Ted Cruz shutdown.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the Trump wall shutdown.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: All instigated by Republicans.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they were all losers.
• 17:27
  And I think a big part of the reason why...
• 17:30
  And it was the Democrats on DACA in 2018.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that was so short.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was like one weekend.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think it was a little bit actually conceptually similar.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I mean totally.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was like...
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: DACA was very popular.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 17:45
  So they were thinking,
• 17:46
  look,
• 17:47
  okay,
• 17:47
  this is totally different from the Ted Cruz shutdown.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because like the thing that we're asking for...
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Polls well and has some support in the Republican caucus.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:59
  So we're going to do it and then everybody's going to talk
• 18:02
  about DACA and we're
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: going to we're going to put points on the board.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like flagrantly non germane.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 18:13
  and so this germaneness ends up becoming central to the
• 18:16
  narrative fighting over
• 18:17
  who's to blame for the shutdown because what ends up happening
• 18:21
  is that the party on
• 18:24
  the receiving ends of the demands goes out and says –
• 18:27
  Republicans usually are
• 18:28
  shutting down the government because they're holding it hostage
• 18:31
  to extraneous
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: demands.
• 18:32
  They won't fund the government unless we repeal Obamacare and
• 18:35
  what's that got to do
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: with anything,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that even though the Obamacare tax credits are popular,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: like DACA was popular,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: if that's the ransom Democrats demand in exchange for their votes,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: either Republicans will accept it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or they will not.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't,
• 18:54
  they will say Democrats are shutting down the government
• 18:57
  because they're making
• 18:57
  extraneous demands that were settled in the fight of the One
• 19:01
  Big Beautiful Bill
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Act.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not reopening that.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that is going to be a very compelling point.
• 19:07
  I think like I would have to be I would have to say that they
• 19:09
  were making a reasonable point.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think people in the news media would say it.
• 19:13
  And so that leads you to into like the kinds of dynamics that
• 19:17
  have preceded every
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: cave on every shutdown,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: People think you're being unreasonable and so you have to back down.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: if they were – if Republicans were to say,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: OK,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: we'll take that as a price,
• 19:28
  it would suggest – and this is – I think this is what I
• 19:32
  actually think is happening
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: – that they would be relieved for Democrats to quote-unquote fight them.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: To add these health care subsidies to the shutdown bill,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: because if those don't get included every well,
• 19:43
  20 million people's premiums are going to go up in three months
• 19:46
  dramatically and
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans are going to get blamed.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so in this sense,
• 19:50
  the Schumer Jeffries Iglesias approach serves to bail out
• 19:54
  Republicans from a
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: problem they created without doing anything to rein in Trump.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's.
• 20:00
  That's part one of what I think is that like the like making
• 20:05
  your demand about
• 20:06
  something on the policy side that's unrelated to the budget
• 20:10
  itself is a recipe for
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: losing one way or another.
• 20:13
  Either you're going to get forced to back down or Republicans
• 20:16
  are going to say
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: thank you for bailing us out.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I think Democrats could have more success than Gingrich,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Schumer,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: the DACA guys,
• 20:27
  or Trump in taking a firm stand and withholding their votes is
• 20:32
  that if you're doing
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: it to rein in Trump,
• 20:34
  then the logic is all internal to the budget because Trump is
• 20:38
  ignoring the budget
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: law,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: He is unilaterally impounding funds that Democrats want to be spent.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: He is pocket rescinding funds that Democrats want to be spent.
• 20:49
  And he is using the appropriations of the government to break
• 20:53
  the law in many ways.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can say,
• 20:57
  we're not going to strike a deal with people who are going to
• 21:00
  renege on us or who
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: are going to use the money that we appropriate to break the law.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're not making any kind of extraneous demand.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're just saying,
• 21:08
  we're not chumps and we're only going to make a deal that's
• 21:12
  going to be kept.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can say –
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: no Democratic votes or like maybe John Fetterman only for a budget,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: but it's going to have to contain measures,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: defunding the masked police,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: closing the the rescission,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: like backstabbing loophole or double crossing loophole.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can make a list of five or six things.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I put a few in the piece.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you could probably get some of them, probably not all.
• 21:42
  But having beaten back Trump in one realm or another,
• 21:45
  I think would be a galvanizing thing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then if Republicans say no,
• 21:50
  like our insistence is that you strike a deal with us and then
• 21:54
  we retain the right
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: to –
• 21:57
  break the deal,
• 21:58
  or to give the money to Donald Trump to do something illegal
• 22:02
  sucks to be you.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, caveat emptor, motherfucker, right?
• 22:08
  And in that case,
• 22:09
  like,
• 22:09
  I think the Democrats should just say,
• 22:11
  then you don't get our votes.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if that means you have to abolish the filibuster,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: In order to fund the government, go ahead and do it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: But don't expect us to play patsy to your bullshit.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that like that has an internal logic to it.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's also what fighting means.
• 22:27
  It's like,
• 22:27
  you know,
• 22:28
  like you're actually picking a fight about the things that
• 22:31
  upset you.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:32
  the least illegitimate thing Trump and Republicans have done
• 22:35
  since Trump took
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: office in January was cut taxes for rich people,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: cut Medicaid for poor people and refused to renew the Obamacare bill.
• 22:44
  Tax credits like that's all that's all in the game and they
• 22:48
  should own the consequences of it.
• 22:50
  But Trump winning with forty nine point eight percent of the
• 22:52
  vote didn't entitle
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: him to break the budget laws of the United States.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so Democrats,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 22:57
  can on on fair ground say it's not it's not about any kind of
• 23:01
  extraneous demand.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're just not going to give you our votes to stab us in the back with.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: OK, this is where, though, I think.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Strategic clarity becomes important because.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: As you said,
• 23:16
  you said that like one problem with the health care focus is
• 23:19
  that Republicans might
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: just say yes and treat it as a bailout.
• 23:24
  I saw that as like one possible benefit is that like I think it
• 23:28
  is realistic that
• 23:30
  Democrats could could win a shutdown fight about that and
• 23:34
  therefore like fight and
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: win,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: which is good for morale,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it's kind of kabuki if Republicans actually want it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some do, some don't.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's the point.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that divides them.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Your way, I think, of course, if Democrats...
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: insist on this and then the government shuts down,
• 23:56
  they have to maintain as their public position that like they
• 24:01
  think Republicans
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: should give in to their demands and reopen the government.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to go on TV and say that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: If someone says like, why are you doing this?
• 24:09
  You say because they're breaking the law and like Republicans
• 24:13
  should come to the
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: table and do what we want.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: We want the government to reopen.
• 24:19
  But I don't think it is likely that Republicans are going to
• 24:23
  give in to this,
• 24:24
  right?
• 24:25
  Like,
• 24:25
  what's going to happen is that Republicans will start talking
• 24:30
  about going nuclear.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then two different things can happen.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And my big concern,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just,
• 24:41
  one of the formative moments of my career was the gang of eight
• 24:47
  or 13 or however
• 24:48
  many it was around Democratic filibustering of Republican Party
• 24:53
  circuit court
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: nominees.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like...
• 24:57
  Progressives put a lot of work into getting Democrats to
• 25:03
  filibuster these circuit
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: court nominees.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Senate Democrats were not instinctively comfortable with this strategy.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And progressive advocates really, really pushed them on it.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is important.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to do it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And they started doing what the advocates wanted them to do.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then conservatives started saying, we can't stand for this.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we need to break the filibuster.
• 25:30
  The whole idea that you could change the rules was like
• 25:33
  developed in conservative
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: media to address this filibustering by Democrats.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: As that started to gain steam,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some moderate Republicans were uncomfortable with it because they were
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: institutionalists,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 25:50
  And they started saying,
• 25:51
  I don't know,
• 25:52
  guys,
• 25:53
  like maybe we shouldn't get rid of the filibuster.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Democrats were like holding their ground.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, we are filibustering these people.
• 26:02
  But then the more moderate Republicans started getting antsy in
• 26:06
  the other direction.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we started saying the Democratic colleagues,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 26:10
  like we are coming under irresistible pressure from our base to
• 26:15
  do the nuclear
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: option and just get these guys on the bench.
• 26:19
  At which point,
• 26:21
  moderate Democrats decided that they needed to save the
• 26:25
  filibusters.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so they entered into negotiations with the moderate Republicans.
• 26:31
  They reached a deal where a couple of the nominees in question
• 26:36
  were withdrawn,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: and the Democrats dropped their filibustering of the other ones.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And Democrats scored that as a win at the time,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: because they did,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: in fact,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: kill the nominations of a couple of these judges,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: and they saved the filibuster,
• 26:54
  which they were saying at the time was like a critical
• 26:57
  guarantor of minority party
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: rights.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote at the time several pieces saying, like, that's a mistake.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 27:05
  if you don't want to vote for these guys because you think
• 27:08
  they're bad judges,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: that is fine.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: if we get rid of the filibuster,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: that is also fine because filibustering is an unreasonable sort of set of
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: procedural rules.
• 27:22
  I am thrilled to back Democrats in the Beutler play if that's
• 27:28
  the play they want to make.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: But they should make it with the understanding that,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Russ Vogt wants to end filibustering on appropriations bills and that,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: like...
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: they shouldn't endorse Republicans doing a nuclear option,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: ending it,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: and passing on party-line vote an appropriation that they don't like.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: But they should accept that as a likely outcome here and not...
• 27:57
  not get into a situation where they end up acting to save the
• 28:03
  filibuster,
• 28:05
  right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: That like a strategic goal of progressives for,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: sadly not at the time I was writing my piece,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: but starting about seven,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: eight years after my piece came out,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: they came around to my viewpoint,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: you gotta,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's actually easier to get it done this way.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 28:27
  You've got to be willing to embrace that and like not tell
• 28:32
  yourself that we are
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: going to restore normalcy.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: This process like we're probably going to make radical abnormal.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so hang on.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So like there's like a lot of radical agreement here.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think in addition to what you said,
• 28:46
  an outcome where Republicans do go nuclear is liberating for
• 28:50
  Democrats in the in
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: the in this Congress where they're a large minority.
• 28:55
  And so they are frequently on the hook for questions of whether
• 28:58
  things do or don't
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: pass,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: like getting rid of the filibuster.
• 29:02
  should be liberating for the people who feel torn about what to
• 29:06
  do in those circumstances.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Secondarily,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 29:12
  it's Republicans who in the last decade have found – like the
• 29:17
  situation has flipped
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: and most progressives and Democrats oppose the filibuster now.
• 29:22
  And the Republican establishment values it a lot because they
• 29:25
  view it as an
• 29:26
  important bulwark against progressive progress when Democrats
• 29:32
  have trifectas.
• 29:32
  And so like there are a lot of Republicans on record saying we
• 29:35
  are like never going
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: to take down the filibuster.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so making them take it down –
• 29:40
  Is a form of winning a fight because you're making them do
• 29:43
  something that they are
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: on record and I think credibly on record opposing.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 29:49
  And like I am not – if like John Thune gets forced to do
• 29:53
  something that I know he
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't want to do,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be like,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe the Democrats got outplayed.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a win.
• 29:59
  You know,
• 29:59
  I just mean for Democrats themselves that just like they need
• 30:02
  to decide –
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: But politicians are like masters of reaching agreement.
• 30:11
  Like that's like their thing because you need to get people to
• 30:14
  vote for you.
• 30:16
  And it means that they sometimes reach shallow consensus
• 30:21
  amongst themselves without
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: having actually achieved like
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: deep consensus on what's going on.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I just,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that is an important,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 30:34
  just like reading something offhand that Roosevelt said sort of
• 30:37
  helped pivot my
• 30:39
  thinking about this because I shifted from Democrats are going
• 30:44
  to do a shutdown,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Republicans aren't going to break,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: and Democrats will probably blink,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: to like,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats can do this shutdown.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them need to say this,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: but like some of them can say,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: if you guys think this is so amazing,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: just break the fucking rules again.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just did it on nominations.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: You did it on this current policy baseline fucking thing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like Trump is doing it all the time.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have no fucking respect for the rules or processes of the government.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you just want to do this, like... Go ahead.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Fucking do it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And like that I am...
• 31:26
  comfortable with in a way that I'm not comfortable with the
• 31:30
  sort of I mean these
• 31:32
  are like your piece and my piece Ezra's piece in some ways like
• 31:35
  what they were all
• 31:36
  saying was not that that different but I think the distinctions
• 31:41
  are important and
• 31:43
  like going into this you can't have the expectation that you're
• 31:49
  going to like
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Fix this.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can I break in?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: one thing – I have two caveats to what you just said,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: and they're small,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: but they're important,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: One is that,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 32:03
  hearing you talk about how this plays out calls to mind a
• 32:07
  scenario that may
• 32:08
  actually be likely that will require Democrats to decide what
• 32:13
  they want to do about
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: the filibuster in this context.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a situation which –
• 32:18
  Democrats say we are not going to vote for an agreement you're
• 32:21
  going to break or
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: that is going to involve financing lawbreaking.
• 32:25
  And so go ahead and like abolish the filibuster if you want to
• 32:29
  pass it or else join
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: us in defunding those activities.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: They could say that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then Trump says,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: OK,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: let's end the filibuster on appropriations,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: which really just means abolishing the filibuster,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: period.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then 49 Senate Republicans or 48 Senate Republicans.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Decide they are game to do that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: But Mitch McConnell,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Susan Collins,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Murkowski say,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: we think the filibuster is important.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to break it in a situation like that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it would be very.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats are going to fall back into the into.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: into like a weak position if they provide the excess votes.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: If they say,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: fine,
• 33:09
  let's get rid of the filibuster together and then you can pass
• 33:12
  your partisan
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: appropriations bill.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think at that point it would be really important for them to say,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: don't come to us for those last two votes.
• 33:21
  If you can't – if you don't have the votes to change the
• 33:24
  filibuster rules to pass
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: your bad faith budget –
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: then you've got to come negotiate with us on those riders.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: No more masks for ice, no more impoundment, you know, whatever.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing is that like,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:38
  you started this out by saying Democrats have to go on TV and
• 33:41
  say what their
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: demands are.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And here I think like the language,
• 33:46
  the rhetoric is important because I think Democrats need to be
• 33:49
  square in their
• 33:50
  heads and square in their rhetorics about the distinction
• 33:52
  between a ransom,
• 33:55
  which is something extraneous that you ask for in the context
• 33:58
  of a budget deadline.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And a demand for fairness within the confines of the agreement.
• 34:05
  And I think the public will have much more sympathy for the
• 34:08
  idea that like we are
• 34:09
  not talking about like extorting anything out of Republicans
• 34:15
  that they don't want
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: enacted.
• 34:17
  We are saying that if we are going to vote for this agreement,
• 34:19
  it has to be fair and square.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: No backsies.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And no, you take the money and you use it to break the law.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those that's it.
• 34:26
  And I think that like I could probably write a list of like 10
• 34:30
  writers or however many.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: if Republicans were actually willing to play ball,
• 34:35
  I don't think that they would agree to defund half the shit
• 34:38
  Donald Trump is trying
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: to do.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: But they might move on a couple of them.
• 34:42
  And then Democrats really have yanked Trump a few inches closer
• 34:48
  to governing within
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: the constitutional order.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that will be galvanizing.
• 34:52
  Like,
• 34:53
  you know,
• 34:53
  there might be like,
• 34:54
  oh,
• 34:54
  you could have held out for more kind of like.
• 34:56
  But like I will be out there saying this is what effective
• 34:59
  opposition looks like.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this ought to be a template.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: This ought to be a lesson learning process.
• 35:04
  moment for Democrats so that they go about opposing Trump for
• 35:09
  the next three and a
• 35:09
  half years more like this than whatever it is they were doing
• 35:13
  for the first nine
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: months.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sympathetic.
• 35:20
  I just like,
• 35:22
  to me,
• 35:23
  it only really makes sense if you are prepared to,
• 35:30
  you know,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: except getting rolled.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I want a gut check on that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just like,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a constant sort of failure of Democrats,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: like strategic wise is like,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: you can't just go off and do things like,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: would work,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: hypothetically,
• 36:00
  if everybody was prepared to stick to it and be
• 36:04
  super-duper-duper hardcore when,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: actually you know people aren't.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, you just, like, we gotta...
• 36:14
  gut check on this and like i think there is a good case that
• 36:18
  like republic that in
• 36:19
  particular i think this got a little bit underplayed in the
• 36:22
  current policy baseline
• 36:24
  thing but like republicans already scrapped the main filibuster
• 36:33
  provision that was
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: sort of like
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: The limiting factor in the reconciliation.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was restraining Republican policy ambitions.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, now it really is just a kind of one-sided hindrance to...
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: raising spending or lowering spending.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: because like with rescissions,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: it's like- Rescissions,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: reconciliation,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: judicial,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: legislating from the bench.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like Republicans have basically a filibuster free- Well,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's just passive non-enforcement of regulations,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 37:19
  And so like getting rid of the filibuster like would be really
• 37:23
  good for Democrats.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so if Republicans go do that, you don't need to endorse it.
• 37:33
  You could be like,
• 37:33
  this is another example of how these guys suck,
• 37:35
  blah,
• 37:35
  blah,
• 37:36
  blah.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: But on the substance, it's fine.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: You got to go back to your people on the phone and be like,
• 37:44
  this outcome where Republicans got rid of the filibuster and
• 37:47
  pushed this through on
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: a party line vote is better for us.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:52
  But what I actually think Democrats need to be clear on is less
• 37:57
  whether they feel
• 37:57
  like that's getting rolled or not and whether they are where
• 38:01
  they actually land on
• 38:02
  the question of of touching the hot stove versus saving the
• 38:06
  public from Trump's and
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: the GOP's like malign ideas.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:12
  Because you see the tension in the fact that that Schumer and
• 38:16
  Jeffries went wrong.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: to the Obamacare subsidies as they're asked.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: they're like,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: there's this question of like sort of,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: are ARSATs fighting?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's,
• 38:27
  you know,
• 38:29
  being on the kitchen table issues,
• 38:32
  like making them more salient.
• 38:33
  But I think that there are people in the Democratic Party and
• 38:35
  definitely in the
• 38:36
  Democratic coalition who want the Democrats in this time to be
• 38:40
  trying to protect
• 38:41
  people from the consequences of Republican policy because
• 38:45
  Republican policies
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: really do hurt people.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I respect that and I appreciate it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just mostly wrongheaded at the moment that like,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: There is – like the way Republicans are governing,
• 38:59
  both the policy choices they're making and the way they're
• 39:01
  going about implementing
• 39:02
  them ought to be felt by the public so that the public has some
• 39:07
  clarity on what
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: they're voting for come 2026 and 2028.
• 39:12
  And this question of whether they should just challenge
• 39:16
  Republicans in effect to
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: get rid of the filibuster is really,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 39:20
  a question about whether they are prepared to let Republicans
• 39:24
  let their freak flag
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: fly with all the consequences that will entail for people,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: all the pain it will cause people.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that like it would be good for Democrats to decide like,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: like the serenity prayer.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: God grant me the wisdom to blah, blah, blah.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans are now going to go do a lot of bad things in the world,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: more than they have been doing maybe even the last seven or eight months.
• 39:51
  And our job is going to be to hold up a myriad of those things
• 39:56
  to the electorate
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: and say,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to fix them and you should vote for us.
• 39:59
  Rather than saying we're going to find the next leverage
• 40:02
  opportunity and reverse
• 40:04
  those things so that you don't feel the pain and the contrast
• 40:09
  between Democrats and
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans becomes blurry again.
• 40:12
  And,
• 40:13
  you know,
• 40:13
  that's like it's like it's like a big,
• 40:15
  profound moral question.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's actually the question more than like,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: are we like,
• 40:22
  how are we going to be perceived if we if Republicans just mow
• 40:25
  us over on this,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: abolish the filibuster and pass a budget that they want?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to feel good about the consequences for the country,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: but I will feel like Democrats did the dignified and right thing.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: OK, let's take a break.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to discuss an additional nuance to this.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's do it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear Matt's additional nuance,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: which honestly,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it is,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: so it's going to take me by surprise,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.