Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #259 The Gift of Failure with Jessica Lahey

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#259 The Gift of Failure with Jessica Lahey · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:09
Speaker 2: wants answers now.
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Speaker 3: The way I constantly think about this is do I
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Speaker 3: want this thing done perfectly now? Do I want this
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Speaker 3: homework assignment to be perfect? Do I want this greed
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Speaker 3: to be perfect? Do I want the dishwasher loaded perfectly now?
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Speaker 3: Or do I want a kid who knows how to
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Speaker 3: do it themselves next time?
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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, My mom
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Speaker 2: and Dad.
0:27
Speaker 1: Today's an exciting day.
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Speaker 4: Kylie, Hello everyone, Doctor Justin Colson here, dad of six
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Speaker 4: daughters and the author of six books. Here with Kylie,
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Speaker 4: my wife and co host, and Honey. Somebody that I've
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Speaker 4: been wanting to talk to for years and we finally
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Speaker 4: managed to get hold of her. Jessica Lay New York
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Speaker 4: Times bestselling author. She wrote The Gift of Failure, How
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Speaker 4: the best parents learn to let go so their children
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Speaker 4: can succeed. Jess is a mum of a couple of
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Speaker 4: kids who are in there. Well, one of them's an
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Speaker 4: adult now, the other one's just finishing high school. So
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Speaker 4: she's got them through. They've survived, They've thrived.
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Speaker 1: Jessica.
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Speaker 4: The book was published about half a dozen years ago,
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Speaker 4: but so many parents haven't heard of it, especially here
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Speaker 4: in Australia, and we're going to talk about it today.
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Speaker 1: We're so grateful that you've joined us.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so so much for having me. I really
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Speaker 3: really appreciate.
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Speaker 2: It, Jess. The book is called The Gift of Failure
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Speaker 2: and I was just flicking through the front few pages
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Speaker 2: of it and I found this quote that just jumped
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Speaker 2: out at me. It says, or you said, I'm out
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Speaker 2: of love and desire to protect our children's self esteem,
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Speaker 2: we have bulldozed every uncomfortable bump and obstacle out of
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Speaker 2: their way, clearing the manicured path that we hoped would
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Speaker 2: lead to success and happiness. Unfortunately, and doing so, we
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Speaker 2: have deprived our children of the most important lessons of childhood.
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Speaker 2: The setbacks, mistakes, miscalculations and failures we have shoved out
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Speaker 2: of our children's way are the very experiences that teach
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Speaker 2: them how to be resourceful, persistent, innovative and resilient citizens
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Speaker 2: of this world. So can you just kind of, I guess,
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Speaker 2: dissect that a little bit for us and explain where
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Speaker 2: you're going with this.
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Speaker 3: I've been a teacher for a long time. But when
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Speaker 3: I wrote The Gift of Failure, I was teaching in
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Speaker 3: middle school here in the US. That's you know, kids
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Speaker 3: twelve through fourteen. And by the way, I love that
2:15
Speaker 3: age group. I love, love, love middle school kids. They're
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Speaker 3: just the best. I call them pupa people.
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Speaker 2: And I had.
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Speaker 3: Noticed that the parents of my students were doing a
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Speaker 3: lot of things that were really making it more difficult
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Speaker 3: for their kids to learn. And of course they were
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Speaker 3: doing these things in the name of helping their kids,
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Speaker 3: and you know, you know, bulldozing things out of their
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Speaker 3: way and making it so there they had lots of
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Speaker 3: opportunities and all that sort of thing. And that was
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Speaker 3: really frustrating to me. And I was on this super
2:44
Speaker 3: high horse about it because you know, like, I'm the
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Speaker 3: noble educator and you're messing things up for me, until
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Speaker 3: I realized that that's exactly what I was doing with
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Speaker 3: my own children. And I had parented one of my
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Speaker 3: kids into such helplessness that he couldn't he was nine
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Speaker 3: and he couldn't even tie its own shoes. So I
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Speaker 3: had to get humble real fast. And luckily I have
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Speaker 3: the best job in the world, which is getting to
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Speaker 3: research and research and research and answer the questions that
3:10
Speaker 3: I have and translate that for a popular audience. And
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Speaker 3: that's how the gift of failure was born. And really
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Speaker 3: that idea of you know, depriving kids of learning opportunities
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Speaker 3: all originally came through my teacher brain and then got
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Speaker 3: filtered through the parent brain because I had to deal
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Speaker 3: with it myself.
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Speaker 1: I like what you said, though, parents are doing this
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Speaker 1: with the very best of intentions. Jest.
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Speaker 4: It's not like they're saying, oh, of course, it's not
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Speaker 4: they're saying, I need to stop my child failing because
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Speaker 4: I don't want them to grow or I want to
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Speaker 4: mess them up. It's almost like there's an understanding when
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Speaker 4: you talk to any.
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Speaker 1: Adult about this.
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Speaker 4: Logically, everyone says, yeah, of course, failure helps you to grow.
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Speaker 4: Of course, it's the struggles that make you stronger. What
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Speaker 4: is it about raising children that makes us, with the
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Speaker 4: best of intentions, step in and stop our children from
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Speaker 4: having these experiences.
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Speaker 3: Because we don't like seeing our kids frustrated. That's emotionally challenging.
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Speaker 3: And you know, I wrote this book on this and
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Speaker 3: I overstep all the time. It makes things go faster
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Speaker 3: my kid, you know, it just it greases the wheels
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Speaker 3: things go faster. I get things done the way I
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Speaker 3: want them done. I you know, I don't have to
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Speaker 3: worry so much about whether or not my kid's going
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Speaker 3: to take care of it themselves. If I just do
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Speaker 3: it myself, if I nag, then I can you know,
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Speaker 3: get some emotional insurance that that this isn't going to
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Speaker 3: get worse and that things will get done. And I
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Speaker 3: think in the end, we're really also worried about, you know,
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Speaker 3: our parenting report card. We're worried about other people are
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Speaker 3: going to think about us if our kids don't you know,
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Speaker 3: do the things they're supposed to do, or get the
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Speaker 3: grades we want them to get, or get into the
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Speaker 3: school that we want them to get into, and so
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Speaker 3: you know, they're even in the research, there's at places
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Speaker 3: where researchers see examples of what's overparenting or what's called
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Speaker 3: directive parenting, though some of those behaviors get amplified when
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Speaker 3: the researchers tell the parents that other parents will be
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Speaker 3: judging their child's work after the experiment, because it's that
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Speaker 3: competitive press sure that comes from other parents or the
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Speaker 3: teachers or whatever it is. You know, if we fall
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Speaker 3: down on the job. We're always worried that we're going
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Speaker 3: to get judged by our kids, friends' parents, or the
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Speaker 3: other parents in the parking lot, or the teachers of
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Speaker 3: our parents. So, you know, it has a lot. It
5:14
Speaker 3: has more to do with us than it does with them.
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Speaker 3: Our worries that they're going to feel stupid or get
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Speaker 3: frustrated and be able to you know, decompensate, those are
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Speaker 3: usually unfounded, but it makes us feel better to step
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Speaker 3: in and help.
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Speaker 2: Jess. Is this a generational thing? Like I don't feel
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Speaker 2: like my parents felt the same way about that kind
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Speaker 2: of judgment of other parents as I have, you know,
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Speaker 2: kind of going through parenting. I remember, you know, as
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Speaker 2: a young mom, you know, the competition that was involved
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Speaker 2: with you know, my child started walking when they were
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Speaker 2: seven months old, and you know, all of those kinds
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Speaker 2: of conversations. Is this something that's kind of I guess
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Speaker 2: comeing to parenting, you know, in the last little while,
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Speaker 2: or is this has this been an age old thing?
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Speaker 3: The easy way to explain is that we're having kids later,
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Speaker 3: after having been in the workforce for longer, or having
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Speaker 3: had more a lot more education. I know, I'm guilty
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Speaker 3: on all those counts, and I I wanted to use
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Speaker 3: the tools that I got in work. You know, spreadsheets, yay,
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Speaker 3: I can do Excel spreadsheets about my kids input and output,
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Speaker 3: and I can map their you know, their bedtime and
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Speaker 3: their sleep schedules and all that stuff. But you know,
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Speaker 3: you and then on top of that, we're so used
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Speaker 3: to having you know, short terms of short term evaluations
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Speaker 3: on our on our whatever it is we're doing for work,
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Speaker 3: and it's really hard when you have this baby, this
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Speaker 3: child that is so precious to you, and this is
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Speaker 3: like the most important job you have to do well,
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Speaker 3: and suddenly we're getting no report card on that. So
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Speaker 3: we start to look for, you know, our own rewards
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Speaker 3: in their accomplishments. And there's a whole history chapter in
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Speaker 3: the book, the Gift of Failure, because this is a
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Speaker 3: complicated picture, but in the end, it's you know, having
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Speaker 3: kids later having kids after understanding, you know, using the
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Speaker 3: tools of business and education in order to apply to
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Speaker 3: evaluating how our kids are doing.
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Speaker 4: There's a whole literature on what we call parental investment
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Speaker 4: in children, and the research certainly shows that we're more
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Speaker 4: invested in our children now than perhaps ever in the
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Speaker 4: history of the world in terms of the expectations we
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Speaker 4: have on them, in terms of the financial input that
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Speaker 4: we have into their lives, and the more we put
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Speaker 4: in financially and time wise and all that kind of thing,
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Speaker 4: the more we kind of expect to extract from them. Plus,
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Speaker 4: with the increasingly pressured world, we want our children to
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Speaker 4: grow up to have six figure incomes and have the
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Speaker 4: nice profession and so all of that expectation. We can't
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Speaker 4: afford for them to fail. They've got to get straight
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Speaker 4: a's on their report card. They've got to get into
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Speaker 4: the right course. I feel like society has become so
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Speaker 4: unhealthy for families, so unhealthy for children when we buy
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Speaker 4: into that, and of course most of us do, because
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Speaker 4: it's hard to find alternative ways forward. In just a
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Speaker 4: sec we're going to ask you how we're supposed to
7:55
Speaker 4: overcome this.
7:57
Speaker 1: At first, we need to take quick break. It's the
7:59
Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.
8:01
Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having
8:04
Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts
8:06
Speaker 5: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits
8:09
Speaker 5: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies
8:13
Speaker 5: dot com dot au Slash Shop.
8:16
Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
8:18
Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're
8:22
Speaker 2: talking with Jessica Lay about her book The Gift of Failure.
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Speaker 4: Jess My observation is the parents generally react really poorly
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Speaker 4: when their children fail, like or even when they fail
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Speaker 4: to succeed. They don't necessarily fail, but they just don't
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Speaker 4: get the outcome that the parent wants. I'll give you
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Speaker 4: a couple of examples. They get eighty percent on a test,
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Speaker 4: and what does the parents say to them?
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Speaker 1: Why did you want to get eighty percent? What about
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Speaker 1: the other twenty percent?
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Speaker 4: The child loses a soccer game, or doesn't convert a
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Speaker 4: goal in a or hit a basket in a basketball match,
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Speaker 4: and the parent says, You've got to defend down that
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Speaker 4: left side better, or you've got to get that shot
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Speaker 4: off faster. There's all of this constant correction and direction,
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Speaker 4: and it's natural because we want our children to succeed.
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Speaker 4: But what would you say to the parent who says,
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Speaker 4: I'm just trying to help them fulfill their potential. But
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Speaker 4: there's nothing the metal with what I'm doing.
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Speaker 3: One of the books I love the most when I'm
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Speaker 3: talking about the stuff is Tim Harford's book Adapt and
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Speaker 3: he talks about the fact that in business, when you
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Speaker 3: have a big when you make a mistake, when you
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Speaker 3: have some sort of gaff, when you have a business failure,
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Speaker 3: it's the businesses that ignore the failure, pretend the failure
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Speaker 3: didn't happen, blame it on someone else. Who are you
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Speaker 3: going to make those mistakes again? It's the businesses that
9:35
Speaker 3: really dissect what happened and put things in place so
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Speaker 3: that it won't happen again. Those are the business that
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Speaker 3: are more likely to succeed because they're learning from their mistakes.
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Speaker 3: And you know, that's a great analogy for kids as well.
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Speaker 3: And the reason that, you know, one of the things
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Speaker 3: that's so hard for us to grasp is that the
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Speaker 3: way I constantly think about this is do I want
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Speaker 3: this thing done perfectly now? Do I want this homework
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Speaker 3: assignment to be perfec Do I want this grade to
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Speaker 3: be perfect? Do I want the dishwasher loaded perfectly now?
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Speaker 3: Or do I want a kid who knows how to
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Speaker 3: do it themselves next time? Do I want a kid
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Speaker 3: who's prepared to do it on their own next time?
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Speaker 3: Do I want a kid who knows how to use
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Speaker 3: a calendar so that next time he is actually doing
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Speaker 3: it himself, rather than my nagging him into a state
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Speaker 3: of submission so that he'll just do it and get
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Speaker 3: it over with. That sort of the long term view of,
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Speaker 3: you know, the difference between like how I want things
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Speaker 3: to go in this second and how I want things
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Speaker 3: to go eventually for my child. I think that's the
10:30
Speaker 3: mantra that I sort of have to keep thinking about
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Speaker 3: all the time, the process over the end product, always
10:36
Speaker 3: valuing that process of And so when you talk about
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Speaker 3: the bad grade coming home, the problem is what we
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Speaker 3: tend to do is react to that grade by withdrawing
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Speaker 3: our love, or in a very real sense, you know,
10:48
Speaker 3: we tend to be silent, which kids can often read
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Speaker 3: as withdrawal of love based on outcome. But if we're
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Speaker 3: constantly focused on the process of learning, the process of
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Speaker 3: figuring out what to do differently next time, the process
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Speaker 3: of what to leave behind and what to bring forward
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Speaker 3: with you for the next iteration, then that sort of
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Speaker 3: the bomb to my you know, to my whole need
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Speaker 3: to fix fix, fix, fix fix, which is this is
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Speaker 3: a long term process. What is he going to learn
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Speaker 3: out of this, and how do I keep my nose
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Speaker 3: out of it so that he can learn as much
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Speaker 3: as possible.
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Speaker 1: There's a.
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Speaker 4: Process that I go through with my kids, and I
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Speaker 4: try to share this with parents as often as I can.
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Speaker 4: And what you've tapped into really really directs us into
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Speaker 4: that rather than giving my evaluation said to my kids, well,
11:31
Speaker 4: how did that feel?
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Speaker 3: I actually say that a lot to parents when I say,
11:36
Speaker 3: you know, when the kids come to you with the
11:38
Speaker 3: drawing and they're like, what do you think?
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Speaker 1: What do you think?
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Speaker 3: And you know where our reflex is to say, oh,
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Speaker 3: it's so beautiful. The problem is is that over time,
11:45
Speaker 3: and this happens with teaching too, over time kids will
11:48
Speaker 3: start to bring you crappier and crappier content and put
11:50
Speaker 3: it up in your face to test you. And then
11:52
Speaker 3: at a certain point you're saying, oh, it's so beautiful
11:55
Speaker 3: to a scribble, and then they have no faith in
11:56
Speaker 3: our judgment anymore. And the most the best thing we
11:59
Speaker 3: can do is when the kid comes to us to
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Speaker 3: show us this thing, as we say, well what do
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Speaker 3: you think of it? Or you know, how do you
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Speaker 3: think you played today? Or how do you think you
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Speaker 3: performed on that test, and since as humans were so
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Speaker 3: bad at metacognition, that's a great opportunity for us to
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Speaker 3: exercise that a little understanding what we do and don't
12:17
Speaker 3: know and developing that internal compass of quality.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, builds that self awareness muscle.
12:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Jess.
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Speaker 2: One of the other things that you said in the
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Speaker 2: book that really stood out to me in relation to
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Speaker 2: I guess the way we the way our children perceive
12:31
Speaker 2: the things that we say, is this little quote that
12:34
Speaker 2: I found at the beginning of the book. It says,
12:36
Speaker 2: every time we rescue Hobba or otherwise save our children
12:40
Speaker 2: from a challenge, we send a really clear message that
12:43
Speaker 2: we believe they are incompetent, incapable, unworthy of our trust. Further,
12:47
Speaker 2: we teach them to be dependent on us and thereby
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Speaker 2: deny them the very education and competence we are put
12:53
Speaker 2: here on this earth to hand down.
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Speaker 3: It's so powerful and I didn't realize that's what my
13:01
Speaker 3: kid was hearing until I really had to confront like
13:04
Speaker 3: the shoe tying thing, because essentially that's what was happening is,
13:08
Speaker 3: you know, every single time it was time for us
13:10
Speaker 3: to go somewhere, and I said it's faster if I
13:12
Speaker 3: do it, or here, just let me do that for you. Essentially,
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Speaker 3: what he was hearing was, eh, I don't really think
13:17
Speaker 3: you can do that. And the problem is is it
13:19
Speaker 3: led us to some pretty dark places. It led us
13:22
Speaker 3: him to have a crisis of confidence. It led him
13:24
Speaker 3: to have a to have a real, real worries about
13:28
Speaker 3: my opinion of him, and and a lot of keeping
13:32
Speaker 3: secrets from me about what he could and couldn't do
13:34
Speaker 3: because he didn't want to face something. He was so
13:36
Speaker 3: embarrassed by the fact that he, for example, couldn't tie shoes.
13:39
Speaker 3: We had to do some real fancy footwork to get
13:41
Speaker 3: ourselves out of that situation, because you know, they had
13:45
Speaker 3: they had a hockey or a skating outing coming up,
13:49
Speaker 3: and you know, if you've seen skates lately, they have
13:51
Speaker 3: a lot of well, I guess now they have latches,
13:54
Speaker 3: but before they had they had laces. And you know,
13:56
Speaker 3: if he couldn't tie shoelaces on the sneakers, he certainly
13:59
Speaker 3: couldn't go on that on that field trip. And so
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Speaker 3: we had we had to work really hard to like
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Speaker 3: practice so that he could go on that field trip.
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Speaker 4: You've just reminded me we have, We've got six kids
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Speaker 4: with time poll we just need stuff done. And while
14:15
Speaker 4: I think that we've got our parenting reasonably well dogged,
14:17
Speaker 4: and we certainly don't make any claims to paring perfection,
14:19
Speaker 4: and our seven year old still doesn't know how to
14:21
Speaker 4: tie up alysis.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and you've just.
14:23
Speaker 4: Reminded me that we've been buying Velcrow because it just
14:26
Speaker 4: means that the morning they.
14:27
Speaker 3: Slip on shoes velcrow. It makes it so much easier. Yeah,
14:30
Speaker 3: but think about it. I thought about it this way.
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Speaker 3: You know, the Velcrow shoes, the slip on shoes whatever,
14:35
Speaker 3: and then we're left with the lacest shoes is like
14:37
Speaker 3: the sab of the leftovers no one can wear. But
14:39
Speaker 3: it was a little bit and this is this age
14:41
Speaker 3: is me. But it was the reason my dad taught
14:43
Speaker 3: me how to drive a stick shift, right, because if
14:45
Speaker 3: I'm ever in a situation where someone couldn't drive it,
14:48
Speaker 3: you know, I had to be able to drive that
14:50
Speaker 3: car for a matter out of safety. If someone was
14:52
Speaker 3: drunk and they couldn't drive, I had to be able
14:54
Speaker 3: to take over. And my dad saw that as a
14:56
Speaker 3: real safety measure. And with the shoe thing, you know,
15:00
Speaker 3: there's gonna come a time when he's and and that
15:02
Speaker 3: was sort of the the realization for me is that,
15:05
Speaker 3: you know, I've been, you know, casting aspersions on all
15:08
Speaker 3: these parents who are doing too much for their kids,
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Speaker 3: and here I am doing the exact same thing. I
15:12
Speaker 3: have no right to judge. And I think that's been
15:14
Speaker 3: my attitude as much as possible in my writing, which is,
15:17
Speaker 3: I have no right to judge here. But here's what
15:20
Speaker 3: I've done, and here's what I've learned from the research
15:22
Speaker 3: on you know, on engaging kids and their own learning
15:25
Speaker 3: and their and learning from their mistakes.
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Speaker 4: Your dad and I would get on, will I'm teaching
15:29
Speaker 4: my daughters to drive a manual or a stick shift
15:32
Speaker 4: as well.
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Speaker 1: We're up to the door a number three.
15:34
Speaker 2: Well, the poor man.
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Speaker 3: The poor man had to listen to me grind the
15:37
Speaker 3: gears and his beloved car, just you know, in order
15:40
Speaker 3: to make my life safer. It was, I'm sure it
15:42
Speaker 3: was terrible for you.
15:43
Speaker 4: We went and bought a cheap clunker because we would
15:46
Speaker 4: just too scared to have them destroy our good car.
15:49
Speaker 4: Es we're talking about, and I think what you're really
15:52
Speaker 4: emphasizing is this idea of when we let go. But
15:55
Speaker 4: not in a neglectful way when we get of course,
15:57
Speaker 4: but when we let go in an affirming way. What
16:00
Speaker 4: we essentially say to our child is I believe in you.
16:02
Speaker 4: I think that you're competent and capable, and I believe
16:06
Speaker 4: that you can do this just fine without me having
16:10
Speaker 4: to do it all for you. Our time is up.
16:12
Speaker 4: But this is a podcast for the time poor parent
16:14
Speaker 4: who just wants answers.
16:16
Speaker 1: Now.
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Speaker 4: We would love to have you come back because there's
16:18
Speaker 4: been such a fun conversation already and really dive into
16:21
Speaker 4: the process of what it is to let go as
16:24
Speaker 4: a parent, but in a way that helps children to
16:26
Speaker 4: develop that competence. Would you be happy to come and
16:29
Speaker 4: join us again and continue.
16:30
Speaker 3: This discussion aolutely, absolutely amazing.
16:33
Speaker 4: Well, we'll talk to you again in about a week's
16:35
Speaker 4: time about the Gift of Failure because the book by
16:38
Speaker 4: Jessica lay New have Times best seller, The Gift of Failure,
16:41
Speaker 4: How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go so their
16:42
Speaker 4: Children can Succeed, has got so much to offer. If
16:46
Speaker 4: you've enjoyed the podcast, we would love it if you'd
16:47
Speaker 4: leave a rating and review. Those ratings and reviews help
16:49
Speaker 4: people to find the podcast and make their families Happier.
16:52
Speaker 4: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
16:55
Speaker 4: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if
16:58
Speaker 4: you'd like morfou about making your family happier, you can
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Speaker 4: get it all at happy families dot com dot au