Latest / Caught on the Mike... / "Still Fighting" with Ryan Baustert of Throw The Fight and Decibel Consulting & Design

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"Still Fighting" with Ryan Baustert of Throw The Fight and Decibel Consulting & Design · Caught on the Mike...

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Warning due to some language and subject matter.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Happy New Year to everybody.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Almost two decades ago, a mutual friend introduced me to our next guest.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Following that was many years of friendship and support of each other's musical projects.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: His based out of Minneapolis and mine based out of Omaha.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: In that time, he has also become quite the marketing guru in his own regard as the creative director for Decibel Consulting and Design, all while maintaining his 19-year-long musical powerhouse project, throw the fight.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me on the podcast today is my friend Ryan Bauster.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about where he's been, where he's going, and what it took to get 40 million streams on Spotify.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Caught on the Mic.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: From the great White North, it's my old friend Ryan from Throw the Fight.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: How the heck are you, brother?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good, man.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks for doing the show.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been talking about having you on for quite some time.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually had a few requests to have you on, and our mutual friend Dusty Grant down in Wichita, Kansas.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Dusty's a good dude.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he is.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, we're we're we're from Omaha, man.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So how you been?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: How's life?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Good, man.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's it's been good, you know.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just same old, same old music stuff, art stuff, dad life.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know how it goes, you know.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're not we're not spring chickens anymore, that's for sure.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Don't remind me, man.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're definitely uh we're old, we're old men playing a young men's game at this point, that's for sure.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had that moment back in August whenever I looked at all the albums that came out in 1991 that turned 30 in August this last year, and I was like, holy shit.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I remember going and buying every single one of those albums.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, totally, totally.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, I was thinking yesterday how I used to like, you know, walk down the hall in junior high with my Walkman and stuff like rocking Allison chains.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was my jam back in the day, you know, the the junior high days and stuff like that, with you know, your walkman and your cassettes and everything like that.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like for real, for real.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are you listening to right now?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right now?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um right now, a few a few different bands.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a band I really like from Sweden called Imminence, they're fantastic.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm listening to those guys Dragged Under, Upon a Burning Body.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those are like my three in rotation right now.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, honestly, I'm listening to rhymesayer stuff.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm listening to stuff from your hometown like nonstop.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Nonstop! So it's all hip-hop for me right at the moment.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, but cool.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: You and I met each other back, and I can tell you exactly when, it was 2004.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is 18 years ago now.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that crazy?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's the old man card.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we met through a mutual friend, and you know, me having bands in Omaha, Nebraska, and you having Throw the Fight in Minneapolis, uh, we got the opportunity to play some shows together and exchange ideas and trade shows back and forth.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been a fun journey because we got to know each other in the advent of social media.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just as it was getting started.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that's a big part of where your life is at now, specifically with your career, with your marketing and with music.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So why don't you take this opportunity, introduce yourself, tell your origin story, the origin story of Throw the Fight, how you got into music, and where it all kind of led you to right this moment in time.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the thing that got me into music originally was my dad.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's important to talk about like our drummer Jeff is also my little brother.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Jeff and I have been jamming together since we were kids, you know, in my parents' basement.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in the early days, it was, you know, my dad was like in the Metallica and Black Sabbath, so he got me into that stuff, and that was what got me into guitar.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh from there I just kind of like you know went down the rabbit hole of the metal, you know, and and punk rock and and then you know, grunge and all of that stuff, and just tried to like listen to as much of that stuff as as as I could.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like the bug had bit me hard, you know.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then to go along with that, you know, art and design have always kind of like gone hand in hand.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I've just always wanted to do, you know, both music and design, like ever since I was in junior high.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to college uh in Wisconsin for graphic design, and uh during the tail end of my college career, uh started Throw the Fight in like 2002 or 2003, somewhere around there, and then just started, you know, growing it from there.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you kind of started applying what you learned in college to the marketing for Throw the Fight, correct?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So what's funny is um, you know, back when I was in college, this was like the early days of the internet.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like the internet was way uglier than it is right now, you know.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't even do a lot of like web design and digital marketing or anything like that.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was all stuff I learned post-college, you know, like on the job training, um, just being like in in various companies, like in-house marketing departments and and things like that, you know?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I always had like a really good side hustle of like build dude, I started out doing like MySpace websites, believe it or not, you know, like that was how I taught myself web design and and HTML and CSS and all that stuff.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So started doing you know, MySpace sites and and getting involved with other artists that way.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it just it just kind of went hand in hand because you know, we still had throw the fight and and we were still working with a lot of other artists too.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of all, you know, it just kind of all works.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's and it's great, you know.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh haven't haven't looked back, you know, but not obviously not doing MySpace anymore.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, now now we're doing actual websites, which is which is great, you know, and a lot of other stuff too, a lot of like digital marketing and helping other artists grow their fan base and things like that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a little bit of a a lot of different things.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a common conversation that I have with a lot of friends.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think MySpace in its old 2005 form could ever make a comeback?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think people miss it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean, that it would be cool.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the best to me, like the best thing about MySpace back in the day is that you could take your page and do whatever you wanted to with it in theory, you know, it was a blank slate.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they kind of started getting away from that and and going towards like these very generic templates and and it just got downhill from there, you know.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then I I don't know what happened, but obviously people left in droves, you know.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, yeah, I mean to me I it would be cool, you know, it would be cool for the nostalgia, that's for sure.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, these days you gotta go where the audiences, and uh, it's definitely not MySpace.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing was, is like the thing that I remember about that that point in time is MySpace and a successful MySpace page was a game changer.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: It could make or break a band.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't I hate to say this, but you almost didn't have to be that great of a band to have a good marketing strategy through MySpace.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: You don't.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean you still don't to an extent.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, I guess I shouldn't say that, you know.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: You still you still need to like strive for great songs and and great music and and everything like that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be the core of everything.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But uh no amount of you know branding and digital marketing will cover that up, you know.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like the basis.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, I mean you could do so many cool things, you know, and and uh now it's obviously evolved.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's much better now than it was.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's for sure.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean people have it so much.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the sky is the limit now.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's so many opportunities out there, it's it's great, you know.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what I love about it, is just the explosion and and how it's completely changed the game, like within the last five years, even, you know, five to five to ten years, you know.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So do you remember the first time we brought you to Omaha?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that show at all?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of it was so long ago, dude.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me refresh your memory.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it was a lot of fun, and and uh did we ever play with the Reagan Era too?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it was with Reagan Era.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I thought.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Was it okay?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it was we were in the process of transitioning from the band I was in 3QE to changing our name to Reagan Era, and Reagan Era only lasted for about a year before we did Right Side Impact, and then we did R Sing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So all of that aside, um this was kind of towards the tail end of the famed Ranch Bowl being open.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And those of you that are not familiar with what the ranch bowl was, it was an entertainment venue complex in Omaha, Nebraska that was almost legendary.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was the forest gump of music venues.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Every famous person before they became famous set foot in the ranch bowl.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember seeing Fallout Boy to a crowd of 17 people in the Ranch Bowl at one point in time.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So crazy.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So Reganero was gonna bring Throw the Fight down for a show.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was with our buddies in Trip and Default, and Ranch Bowl had three different bars inside of it that all hosted shows.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um for some reason, all the booking got screwy, and we all got put into one, the main venue, opening up for Viking Metal Band.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Three inches of blood.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Three inches of blood.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I dude, you know what?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: As you were just describing this, I was like, I know we played with this metal band that was so insane, and I couldn't remember the name.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was three inches of blood.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you are right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you remember my my my drummer Doug at the time?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever he had his drums up on the riser, the three inches of blood banner was like it looked like three inches, and then there was Doug sitting there, so it was like three inches of Doug.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: That made for years worth of jokes afterwards.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys brought us to Minneapolis, and I'm gonna tell you something that I've never shared with you, but those trips to Minneapolis were life-changing for me.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's awesome.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in a good way, and and and getting to know you and getting to meet you and watching you from afar changed how I handled marketing on the local uh level here in Omaha, Nebraska, and Lincoln, Nebraska.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I've never had that opportunity to tell you you you had a very, very profound impact on me on the things.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: You did write, and you still do write.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've always admired you from afar because uh you've done great work.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that, Mike.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's super nice of you to say.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of crazy like that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, in your time with Throw the Fight, what are some of the the greatest experiences that you've had as a member of that band?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, um, just recording over the years with a lot of amazing producers and engineers, that has been has been game-changing for us.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: We've been able to work with a lot of really great people and uh tour with and and play shows with a lot of really great bands.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the highlight for sure is is Bullet for My Valentine and and Black Veil Brides.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: That was a while ago at this point, you know, but it was like 2012 or 2013, some somewhere like that.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um, that tour was insane for us and and opened a lot of doors and put us in front of a lot of people.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always a highlight.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um getting to tour Canada, we've been to Canada twice at this point, and Canada is fantastic, you know.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just people there are are super, super nice and uh and welcoming.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely different than playing in the States.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh for sure.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the I like I've never I haven't been to Europe yet, but I feel like that's the case in Europe too.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's there's just it's just a different culture, you know, and those countries appreciate the arts a lot more, I think, you know, so that's that's different.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, I don't know.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's those are the things that kind of stick out to me for sure.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Back in what was it, 2011, 2012, you guys recorded with John Feldman too, didn't you?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, John Feldman and his engineer at the time, Brandon Paddock, who is an insanely talented dude.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so talk a little bit about that experience.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: What was that like?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I got a hold of Feldman uh on MySpace, believe it or not.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um at the time.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean at the time it was it was like 2011, you know, and and he had a MySpace page that basically just said, hey, if you're interested in in recording, you know, hit us up.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we just dropped him a message and he was into the band, you know, and and what we had previously put out, so he's like, Yeah, let's do this.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we went out and and did a record with uh with him and Brandon Paddock.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we did like 12 tracks in three weeks, maybe something like that, and and worked out of his house that time.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So very very cool experience.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Throw the Fight has had some songs used for commercial use, haven't you?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Er early, early, early on.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like it hasn't been for a long time, but um like early 2005, 2006.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and what what tracks and where were they used?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid to name drop, bro.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was um it we worked with a a music publisher based in Minneapolis called In the Groove, and we licensed our first EP to them.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they they had a lot of uh a lot of luck placing four songs from our very first EP on like MTV and VH1 and Spike, um, and a lot of those shows, you know.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that that was really cool, but um I haven't had any placements, you know, since then.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Those were the biggest ones, but that's that's a tough game.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a completely different animal, like sync licensing and and all that stuff, it's uh yeah, a different animal completely.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of where I wanted to uh to transition to is you know the evolving business of music.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have not been in it now for 10 years.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's crazy to think about that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's even crazier to say it out loud.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: But um in the last 10 years, streaming has taken over.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, physical copies have kind of gone back to vinyl, and uh compact discs are not as relevant.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they're still relevant, but not as relevant.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And everything has kind of gone digital.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, how have you leveraged that for yourself and for the band?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, it's not really it's not really as easy as saying it's like a handful of of things.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's it's a lot of things that are kind of like contributing to the the overall picture and the growth.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I would say like within the last maybe the last like three to four years, like we've seen a massive shift between between people like downloading music on iTunes and and whatnot to almost completely moving over to like streaming services like Spotify and and Apple Music.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's in our case, you know.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's obviously other artists where you know they're making the majority of their their income, you know, from touring or or selling physical products or any number of different ways.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for us, like 95% of our our revenue is from streaming.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the biggest change, you know, and and for us it's more about uh putting out less music more frequently.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to just put out a lot more singles um and just you know not focus on on albums as much.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like we were talking about this with the guys yesterday, like it's just the way that people listen to music now has changed so much that you know if you work on an album and maybe you put out four or five singles in advance of it, you know, your audience you still have half of it that your audience isn't even gonna hear for the most part, you know.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just it's people's consumption has completely changed in that regard.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to like put less music out more frequently and just keep writing and just kind of like act as our own label and uh and and build the business that way, you know, focus less on social media and more on like the assets that you own, which is you know, email marketing, your email list, and your website and e-commerce and stuff like that.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean the same thing with social media, like you know, people's attention span is so short now, you you're competing with like news, you know, news feeds and algorithms, and that is just a lose-lose battle, you know.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, we've always tried to focus on using social media as tools to connect with the right people and then get those people off of social media and onto our email list and and you know, so that we can like stay in touch a little bit better.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's a big part of it, and then just playing shows and playing live as much as we possibly can and and getting in front of people because you know at the end of the day, especially for a rock band, um that if you you know that you can do all the internet marketing and and pay to advertising you want to, but it's still not gonna have as big of an impact as playing live and being able to like have you know interact with people face to face and and and do that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a combination of all that stuff for the most part.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's uh pretty interesting to hear you say that because the way I personally feel about email marketing is it's kind of like a roller coaster ride.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: It cycles up and it cycles down.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And to hear that it's still a relevant form of marketing.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know when it first started, people were really engaged with uh emails, and then it kind of went through this phase when social media ticked up where people were more engaged with social media.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So are you seeing um engagement rates increase with your email marketing or are they leveled out?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: How does that work for you?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they're there the engagement is much better than social media, that's for sure.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're posting stuff organically on Facebook or anywhere, the the reach and the engagement is a fraction of what we see on our email list.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with our list, we're typically getting you know anywhere from 30 to 40 percent open rates on our emails and then getting click rates of like two to three percent, and and you know, those percentages are 5x what you typically see on on social media, at least in our case.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that's obviously not the case for everybody, everyone's different, you know, but uh it's it's just a classic 80-20 rule, you know?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like 80% what what how does it go?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna butcher this, but like it w 80% of your results are from uh 20% of your efforts, isn't that what it is?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: But uh so we just focus on that, you know.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you don't have to I think there's a lot of pressure, especially these days, to um, you know, with people like on social media and posting all the time and things like that, that you have to be everywhere and doing all the things, and that's just simply not true, you know?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to do a handful of things really well and repeatedly, you know, and just never quit until you're dead.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what we're doing.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's kind of finding where your audience is at and just sinking into that and just doing one thing well as opposed to doing multiple things half-assed, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: It totally, yeah, totally.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, we've we've just developed a lot of you know, systems and processes and and tiny habits over the years, and just kind of we just work that, you know.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's pretty much it.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so just so people know how effective this is for you, what are your current plays at on a platform like Spotify?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I already know the answer to this, but audience doesn't.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're they're they're solid.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we've got like, I don't know, it goes up and down, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's all depending on, you know, when you're putting out music and stuff like that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's obviously going to be, you know, spikes and dips, but we we typically average like a quarter million on on Spotify alone.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's where we see like 95% of our activity, you know, that's it's pretty much Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Those are those are the three.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everything else is the stuff is out there, but it's a very, very far, you know, second place.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: So sure, sure.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason reason I was going to that is because I went to your personal website and some of the coaching that you've been doing through your personal website, and I saw the number 40 million, and I'm like, what?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have do you have 40 million spins on Spotify?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even more.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's that's that's cumulative, you know, that's our entire discussion.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was getting at was cumulatively.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But here's here's the thing.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's the narrative is like there's no money to be made on this, you know, and and we all know it's like fractions of a penny, and everyone wants it to be higher, of course, you know, but you can't really do much about that at the end of the day.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing you can really do is learn how to work this stuff into your favor, and it's a it's like a snowball rolling down a hill, you know, like there's momentum and this stuff compounds.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like contributing to your 401k, you know?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there's compounding interest and and there's a snowball effect, and uh you can absolutely make money from this stuff.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, granted, you know, we're not we're not paying our mortgages from Spotify, you know, but uh it's a it's a good chunk of change that we're making every month, larger.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: On autopilot, that we're just able to, you know, pay ourselves a very small salary every month and have money for marketing and have money to, you know, do recording and videos and all the stuff we want to do independently.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just it's just a nice little like music business for us at this point.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's I mean, we're super thankful there's even an audience there, you know, like that's that's listening to this stuff.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean that's that's what it comes down to.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: If that wasn't there, you know, it'd be it would be a completely different story.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean there are there are thousands of artists out there making, you know, over six figures uh just from streaming, you know.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you typically hear about the massive artists who you know bitch and complain that they're not making any money, and you know, the Taylor Swifts and those types of catalogs, and and the fact of the matter is they those artists make a shitload of money, but you know, it's more indicative of the types of deals those artists sign, where their label or their you know is recouping or they're they're splitting those royalties between a dozen different songwriters or whatever it is, you know.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if you own your masters and all that stuff, and and uh you you know you can you learn a handful of skills and and you can learn how to get the music in front of the right audience, you can absolutely make money, you know, with streaming and and grow an audience that way.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's doable.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You and I were talking before we pressed record when I was talking about the the podcasting world about how this has to be a slow roll process, it's not gonna happen overnight.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so many people think they throw the record out there, boom, it's gonna happen, right?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, in and for you guys and throw the fight, that's 19 years.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, 19 years of different forms of marketing, uh, you know, just boots to the ground, totally hobnobbing with everybody, shaking hands, kissing babies, playing the politics.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, man, we're just we're a slave to the grind, you know.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's right, right.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're experiencing is the fruits of hard-earned labor.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Nearly two decades later, yes, which is in which is crazy, you know, but that's what it takes.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you gotta, you gotta be willing to like at the at the beg at the end of the day, like you gotta do it because you love doing it and you're and you're creating art and stuff like that, but you know, that stuff takes time and money and energy, and I'm of the mindset that you know it you artists should also get paid for that stuff too, you know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not uh this is this stuff isn't cheap to do, you know.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean it, but it is doable, but yeah, it takes time, that's for sure.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot less time now than it did, you know, back in the day, you know, like for sure.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you can compound that time frame a lot faster now.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Social media, of course, is driven, it's all algorithm driven, and all the marketing for small businesses is algorithm driven.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are there similar algorithms with um streaming services that um you can leverage to your benefit?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, every every every platform pretty much has algorithms, you know, and just so many data points that they're tracking and and using to inform like playlist decisions and and uh features and and things like that, you know.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, uh you you can't really control that much of it, you know.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, other than just like pitching your stuff when you when you put it out there.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um between between like the editorial stuff, you know, and and playlists that you can create on your own and other user playlists, I mean, there's there's endless opportunities out there to to get your music in front of an audience.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, all every every platform has their version of you know editorial playlists and especially Spotify.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think I focus the most on Spotify.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I just I'm more familiar with that one, more so than like, you know, Deezer and a lot of the others and Apple Music.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh between just like algorithmic playlists and all the various like release radar and Discover Weekly and all that stuff, there's there they do a great job at um putting your music in front of the right audience and and finding fans for you, for sure.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: It seems that their user interface is the most friendly out of all of them and the most universal out of all of them.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I I love it.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I wish the music didn't sound like shit, you know, but I I that's the one thing I never got is why audio on Spotify sounds like so compressed and and and just hot garbage compared to you know YouTube or SoundCloud or something like that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: That never made sense to me.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, you know, it's it's great.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of felt that there was a similar effect.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember Reverb Nation?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Did you ever use that?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like early, early on, you know, the the problem with Reverb Nation is the only people who used it were other musicians, you know, like no one, no one who wasn't a musician was was on Reverb Nation or or using that as a platform, at least in my experience.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we never did much with it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before streaming took a hold, um Reverb Nation was kind of like the stopgap between MySpace and whatever was next.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because as as my after MySpace was acquired by Fox, and then it was supposed to be redesigned to be a music interface, and then it just was horrible and it was hard to use.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were there were a bunch of stopgaps that kind of came out at the same time.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I brought up Reverb Nation is because of the compression rate with some of the audio when you would upload it, you would have this amazing sounding disc.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You upload it to Reverb Nation, and it sounds like it was recorded on a tape player in your garage.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just kind of going to the point that you were making about Spotify and the fidelity difference between an Apple Music and a Spotify, but Spotify's interface is better.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, the interface is better, and they have a way larger market share compared to everything else.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just there's more people on the platform.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, artists earn less on that platform, but when you look at the market share and you know the potential for discovery, you know, you're you're way better off on Spotify than a lot of the other ones, at least, you know, as of this point.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to the social media thing, I'm sorry, I keep circling back to that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's all good.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: With the pandemic, the platform TikTok really took off in the biggest way possible.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I even myself, my old ass has a TikTok page for this podcast.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask you, are you a TikToker now?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Holy shit, man.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I get sucked in.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I I hate to admit that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now I will tell you, and I I've talked about this on an earlier podcast, there is a difference between what you're fed on your for you page if you're a personal account versus a business account.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like the business account is more meaningful content, where if you're just using it as a personal account, they're gonna show you things that guys our age are into.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it's kind of crazy.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it but that's one that I have never you have movies like um what is it, the social dilemma and stuff that talk about you know um how algorithms work and how they're they're deconstruct what um we're viewing and and and how it's it's just kind of you know uh trends and what have you.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um tick tock is one where I have never seen the algorithm so blatant before.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've as a TikTok user and and using it using that platform to promote this podcast, I look at it and I see music acts on there all the time, and I would think if I were still in the music business, that the I would hop on that as soon as possible.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and see, I I haven't gotten to that point yet.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need to do that though.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we haven't we haven't set up a TikTok for the band yet, and and we should probably do that.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: That that's actually a good point, and I'm making a note to do that because uh That was not my intent, Ryan! Well, on the one on the one hand, it's like yeah, there's there's an opportunity there for sure, and then on the other side, it's like oh, another fucking platform to like deal with and make content for.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need another platform, like I need a hole in my head at this point.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's you know, I mean I'm I'm only saying that out of ignorance, you know, because I'm I'm not on it right now.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I just I I just need to bite the bullet and get on there.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was not a believer, dude.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've got teenagers, and they were on it first, and I truth be told, I got a TikTok account so I can monitor whatever shit they were watching and their behavior on TikTok, and then I got sucked into them, into it my myself, and I have found bloggers, I have found podcasters, I have found new music acts, I have found like nerd content that I really enjoy.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, man, this in and the thing is, is as a user interface, as a as a TikTok user, somebody that's using it for my business, I could create a one-minute video for the podcast, and then I could take that video and put it on all my other platforms, and it's one piece of content that could go over like four or five different social media platforms, and I'm done for the day.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, that's for sure.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: I like creating something once and repurposing it and having it work for you over and over and over again, you know?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh hell yes.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh hell yes.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's uh that's that's part of this uh zenial lifestyle that we have.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're gonna be able to do that.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: You get videos up there and and uh you only have to put it up there once and it can be discovered, you know.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not the case with uh Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and all the others, you know.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, absolutely.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you have uh made yourself a living working with other artists and using using your creative side.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Creative director for Decibel, yes?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about talk about that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's just uh I'm just a solo, you know, solopreneur.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: My business is just me and a handful of other contractors that I'll I'll bring in, you know, depending on the project.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh right now we're focused on on web design.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I work with a lot of bands, you know, building websites for bands and other small businesses, you know, it's not just entertainment industry stuff, but um, I'm doing a lot of web design, a lot of EPKs, and then you know, a lot of e-commerce stores, and then helping those artists um get off the social media hamster wheel and and put like processes and systems in place that will allow them to help, you know, scale their business and their fan base largely on autopilot, you know, and and that's where like the email marketing and comes into play and copywriting and landing pages and and all that geeky like tech marketing stuff.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that stuff, you know.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh that's kind of my jam, you know, and and what I focus on for for the most part for the day job.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, how has that business changed in light of the past two years, in light of the pandemic?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call it what it is, in light of the pandemic, in light of the so socio-political strife, because I know both things have contributed to the economy and the work from home economy and the the digital economy.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you benefited from any of that?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not a ton, but um, you know, if there's anything that that I've learned like in the last two years, it's that artists cannot rely on playing live anymore.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can't rely on on making money from touring.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is a very, very margins on that are just so thin for independent bands, you know, that are trying to come up.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not even it's not even feasible, you know, but uh it's fun, you know, play it certainly plays a part, but you gotta be able to learn how to, you know, build an audience without playing shows and and touring.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the biggest thing, you know, and and the other thing that I've seen is is just rely, you know, it has to do with social media.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't rely, like you gotta get these people off of these platforms and onto the platforms that you own.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like typically when when independent artists struggle to build a fan base, they're recording music, they're releasing music, they're you know, blasting in on social media, and they're wondering why, you know, they don't make any money and and revenue, and it's and and then they get frustrated, and then it's like, well, I guess we gotta go back in the studio and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like you're releasing stuff into a vacuum, you know, and it's because what I've found in my experience is that they don't have these other systems in place to kind of like connect the dots for people online, you know, and and that's that's really gonna be your website, your e-commerce, your email marketing, and then using social to kind of like tie your brand together, point people back to that stuff, and uh and then and then you know start to own your audience a little bit more.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you really gotta own your audience.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's really what it comes down to at the at this point, you know.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing that you said all that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if you've ever listened to it.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever listened to Story of the Years podcast?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I probably should because they're one of my favorite bands.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, mine too.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that was it was so funny.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: So about a year ago, they started this podcast, and I just it was it was good Jim Fodder.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was something to listen to while I was running on a treadmill or lifting weights.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the funny thing is, and I think it was probably totally unintentional on their part, but it became kind of this blueprint because of all the guys they were having on the show of how to manage your career really without touring anymore.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and they they talked about that very same thing.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it specifically around the time they did the uh Page Avenue live stream, the In the Wake of Determination live stream.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they were openly talking about the adaptive business model of the new music industry.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're right, you know, with fuel prices and venues like being restricted in some places and not restricted in other places, you gotta reinvent the wheel to a certain degree.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and I've kind of like my business really hasn't changed that much over the pandemic in the sense that I've been working from home like for years, you know, and and so I I wasn't like I I kind of left the corporate world long before the pandemic.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it wasn't really like I was transitioning, you know, out of an office you know, from home, you know, and do and doing that.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's a there's certainly that's made a huge difference and and made things a lot, you know, certainly difficult for for a lot of people.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was very fortunate that that didn't affect me too much.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, like people need websites, you need you know, you need you need to own this stuff and and and not rely on platforms that you you don't control and you know you can't you can only do so much with.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um that has never been more important than than within the last two years since the pandemic.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: So have you guys considered doing any kind of live stream type concert?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or have you done any live stream concerts since the pandemic has been going on?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: We haven't, no, no.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not it's not that we don't want to, we certainly want to.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it just hasn't been something that we've focused on, you know.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: We we've we decided to focus more on writing and recording more frequently and and and releasing more music.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um now that kind well, now things are going the opposite direction again.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: They were looking great there for a little bit, and and now it's going the opposite direction.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: We did manage to start playing again, you know, like this past summer, you know, we did like our we did maybe five or six shows last year, and they were our first shows that we got to do like within the last year and a half prior to that, you know.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we've been kind of hoping to like that things were gonna start going back to normal a little bit, and and now that's not the case, but uh I don't know.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm hopeful that things will will start turning around here hopefully soon, you know, in in in 2022.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're based mostly based out of the Minneapolis area, still, correct?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, correct.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm in I'm in Victoria.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's about 30 minutes west of Minneapolis, out in the suburbs.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: How has like the city of Min, the Twin Cities in general, Minneapolis, St.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, how have they adapted to the pandemic?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any specific restrictions?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Were there mandates or anything along those lines?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there were there were mask, there were definitely mask mandates um and and a lot of restrictions, you know, that way.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, things started to open back up, you know, within the last like, I don't I don't know how many months ago.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, dude, honestly, this stuff has been going on for so long, it seems at this point.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even know.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I don't even like the timelines are completely blending together.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to say in the last few months things have started to get progressively better, but now my wife just told me that um Minneapolis and St.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Paul have more mandatory man, you know, more mandates going into effect this weekend with you know wearing masks and stuff like that.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I totally get it, but yeah, it's it's it's up and down, up and down, and and uh I don't know, man.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: People are so it's so tiring and exhausting.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, it it totally is.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't even live in Omaha anymore.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: I live in Lincoln, so I I live in the state capital.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um the entire state did not have a mask mandate, but the city of Lincoln did, and that was because they were grandfathered into an old law that it's really weird.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's really weird.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the governor cannot mandate one way or the other, but the mayor can here.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's been an unusual situation, yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what's made it hard all around, because every state is different, every city is different, like, and this stuff is changing almost on a monthly basis.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's no consensus on anything.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just created so much confusion, you know, because of, you know, there hasn't been a cohesive, you know, message and narrative since since the jump, you know.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So people are going with let's make it a medical issue, let's make it a political issue, let's make it a public health issue, let's and and you know, it's but it in the brass tacks of it all, it's like this shows the weakness of our sociology because we can't come together on on a common, you know, consensus one way or the other.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's sad.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I mean, unfortunately, people with agendas from the beginning, you know, that's that's what it come came down to, and it's it's divided the country.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's I mean, that's that's really the end.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: The short and long of it, you know.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: But uh Right.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to us talk all ambiguously about this.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're all being ambiguous, we're not putting our stake in the ground on either side of the issue.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're just saying, man, this has been some shit we've had to deal with.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just saying it's it sucks, you know, and and uh I you know, I I don't know.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I like to try and be positive, you know.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I that I struggle with that.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm I'm more of a realist, you know, and and I s I struggle with uh with trying to like remain positive.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I have to work a lot more at remaining like positive throughout the whole thing.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's certainly been harder to do, you know.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if have you have you found that to be the case too, like within the last few years.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like just meant with mental health and all that stuff, like that's that's required a lot more work for everybody, you know?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I'll I'll I'll be very transparent, and I have no problem being transparent and vulnerable about it.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was on this amazing fitness journey that I think started, you know, 2012, 2013.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was getting incredibly good shape.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a an umbilical hernia that I had fixed in 2016, and so it slowed me down for a little bit, and then I got back on it and I was just kicking so much ass.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading books, listening to books.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: I came out of 2019, probably in the best mental and physical condition that I had been in since I was a teenager.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: The pandemic hit, and it was just it threw all of my routines in disarray.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I I, you know, I struggled up and down, and I've talked about it a million times on this podcast about how my routines got fucked up by the pandemic.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: But 2021 was almost harder because I felt like I lost my sense of discipline, and I felt like I lost a little bit of my sense of humanity.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So as a result, yes, my mental health suffered in a big way to the point where the end of August, beginning of September, I had what was a near nervous breakdown.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first time on since I was a teenager, I had to get some medical intervention with it.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, to answer your question, have I dealt with it?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: You betcha.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's the case for so many people, you know, across the board.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's, you know, I mean, do you ever have instances since this has been going on where you have uh lapses of short term memory or brain fog because of the the fatigue of the whole situation?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I started drinking.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: A lot more.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: That was maybe last last year.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I recently made made the decision I'm just gonna stop drinking.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that was literally this week.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not gonna like pat myself on the back at this point.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm only a week in at this point, you know, but um yeah, I mean I it affected me with with alcohol for sure a lot.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it got to the point where like my wife and I are like, oh, now we're joining the case club at at this winery and we're getting like cases of wine shipped to the house, and we're literally like drinking a bottle of wine like every every other night, you know, and and it got to the point where um yeah, I gained a little bit of weight, and I'm like, yeah, I gotta I gotta cut back, man.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's it's not it's not good, but um, yeah, it's tough.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it's been hard.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: But and and and I'm glad that uh you know, the upside of it all is we've reached a point in society where we can have open dialogue about things like this now.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the good byproducts of the the pandemic, is like we're all in this sinking ship together, and it's like, well, since the Titanic is going down, we might as well be the violinists standing on it, right?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: How has becoming a father changed your perception of your place in the music industry?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's a great question.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it for sure it it you know it's uh it made us realize that we don't want to be on the road nonstop, that's for sure.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the first thing.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we've all got little kids at this point, so my kids are are five and nine.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the only dude in the band with two kids, but everyone else has has uh Chris, our other guitar player, his son is is nine, same age as my daughter, and then Jeff and Cade, their kids are both younger.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're toddlers, they're they're two at this point.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, we're we're all a we're a dad band, you know, at this point.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we realize, you know, we just want to be more picky and choose, you know, with with what the opportunities that we take on.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and we realize that, you know, we don't have to tour for the sake of touring.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: We can, you know, pick and choose our battles and and call our own shots and and do what we want to.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the beauty of it at the end of the day.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for us, it's just it's just been great, you know, focusing on recording and and writing songs and and just doing more of that, you know.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been it's been nice.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: That that's kind of been our philosophy, you know, for the last handful of years, you know.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, it really helps put things in perspective, that's for sure, you know.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: But especially when it comes to touring and stuff like that, you know.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this is good because you know, circling back to the whole the the drinking thing.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know back in the day when we used to do shows together, it was kind of like a bunch of Frank the tanks running around the bar.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was I was talking to somebody not too long ago about playing with you guys in um in Minneapolis, and I ran up a$250 credit card bill, and we had free drinks in the green room, and I still ran up a$250 credit card bill in one night on drinks.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: It happens.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the the thing is, is uh, you know, not too long ago, actually about two years ago, shortly before the pandemic, I I quit drinking altogether, not because I had an issue with it, but I noticed a correlation with anxiety and like you know, in and paying attention with my fitness, that I gave up foods.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: But if I was still drinking, you know, this would have been a would have been a crazy two years.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: But going back to the the point about the the parents and being parents and playing in a band still, do you notice that your conduct is more informed now that everybody is parents?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we definitely think about that a lot more.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's you know, it has to do with being a dad and and and a parent, and it has to do with just getting older, you know.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like when we're playing shows, you know, it's like dropping dropping F bombs and and stuff like that.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's just that appeal is is gone at this point.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're we're uh we're we're a lot more PG in in that regard.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So and yeah, I mean it's like, dude, the older you get, like your body can't just can't handle it anymore, you know?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like we'll we'll go out and and not that we tour like all the time or non-stop, we really never have, but you know, we would go do do long weekends and stuff like that all the time.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and the last one we did, it was only two shows on a Friday and a Saturday, and we came back and and it was like a truck had ran over you for like four days after that, because it's just like we're 40 years old plus at this point, and and uh so yeah, it's just it just gets harder, you know, and and as you have more dependence and you get older, it just it gets harder to do.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all the more important to just find ways that you can continue doing it on your own terms.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's kind of what we what we try and focus on and and what we've been doing, and it's it's still working, you know, thank God, you know.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're still having a blast and and and still loving it.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, here we are.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you do you learn to do things more efficiently whenever you have that focal point at home.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, man, I'm only gonna do it if it's worth it, and I have to find the most efficient way of doing it possible.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, 100%.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like back in the day, you know, within the last, even you know, maybe five or six years ago, we used to have tons of overhead.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had a rehearsal space, we had a vehicle, a trailer, we had all kinds of stuff we were paying for that the band had to play like eight or nine shows a month just to cover our expenses.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, like we weren't earning on any of our music.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was all under license with labels and and other parties and stuff like that.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like now, you know, things really turned the corner for us when we started uh when our old license deals expired and we started owning our masters and our and our music again and and the uh the label you know side of things, um, that's been you know a game changer for us.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So so that that's helped a lot.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's uh you know, it's tough, man.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's for sure.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can't you can't drink and and uh yeah, you can't just you just can't do that stuff anymore.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's it's completely lost its appeal to me at at this point, you know.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you say to people that say that you can't blend business with art?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've you know, I remember towards my twilight years playing in music, I would refer to it, maybe accidentally, I'd be like, Well, I'm not putting a bad product out there, and you know, you get this high and mighty artist that would say, My art is not a product.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you say to people like that?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would say then you're a hobbyist, you know, like if you wanna like if you want to put out music and you don't care that you know people hear it or or anything like that, you know, it's it's a hobby.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're just like a a bedroom guitar player or something like that, or you know, you're doing it for the art, you know, that's great, you know, if that's what you want to do.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it's a business, you know, like your fans are your customers.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, this stuff costs money, so if you want to take it seriously, like you gotta treat it as a business.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what we've done, and that's what I, you know, what I'm always preaching to my clients and and everyone that I talk to as well, too.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like you got you gotta, you know, you gotta grow your business.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's really what it is at the end of the day.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's a hobby for you, great, you know, go go do go do your music hobby, you know.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm of I'm I'm of the mindset that why can't it be both?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't it be art and still and still, you know, make a l something you make a living from, you know, like I mean, what is it with artists where people don't expect them to make a living, and that's okay.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not okay with any other profession, you know?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: So no one expects people to do their jobs for free, you know?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but somehow like we still have to deal with that.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of crazy, you know, but yeah, I I never really bought that that philosophy.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I typically if someone has that attitude, it's like, okay, man, you know, good good for you.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just don't ask to be on any of my shows.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, good good luck with that, I I guess, you know, but I mean, at the end of the day, you know, like we we need people to hear hear the music, you know, so that requires a handful of skills.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: It requires advertising, it requires so many different things like that are beyond just putting out music.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so many artists out there putting out music.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember what the stat is, but I think like most recently there was like Spotify or like all the DSPs, they get like 60,000 tracks a day.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many artists out there, like if you're putting your music out there and you're expecting people to discover it on its own merits, you're just setting yourself up to fail because it doesn't work like that at all.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that's why you have so many independent artists like dropping music out there to crickets, you know, and posting on social media and and no one's listening and they're not cutting through.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's because those methods don't work, they just don't work anymore.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's a symbiotic and reciprocal relationship where the audience is your consumer, but they're also your boss at the same time.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to please your boss to keep yourself employed so you can play for your boss later.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: To an extent.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, you know, for for us in our case, like we're always we're only putting out music that we like, you know, and and and that we approve of.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't have a label or or we're not taking any other like outside input other than the four of us and whatever, you know, other songwriters and producers we're working with on the song at that time.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, you know, there's there's certainly that extent of it, but you want to be able to like, you know, challenge yourself.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: You still want to challenge yourself and you still want to grow and and put out great music and great art, you know.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: So but yeah, you can't I don't know.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't really do a whole 180 on that stuff and expect people, you know, expect it to go over well.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Very few bands can and artists can can do that and uh and have it work, you know, and there's typically like a lot of outside other factors, you know, playing into that.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, wholeheartedly agree.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's 2022.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: What to kind of close this up, what are some words that you would have for somebody practicing in their garage right now, they're ready to hit the stage, they're ready to start marketing their music.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: What is some advice that you have for them right now at this moment in time?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you're just starting out and you're um you don't have a lot of you know music out, you know, I think the most important thing is it always starts with the music.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, everything else stems from that.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't otherwise you you can't really have terrible sounding music.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh music is subjective, right?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what what one person thinks is a great song, another person is gonna think is is complete garbage, you know.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there's it's subjective to an extent, but what's not subjective is the quality of the recording of your masters, you know, and things like that.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to put uh all of your effort on putting out the best product possible.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's thing one, is is the songwriting and and the music always comes first above everything else.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um two is release less music more frequently, okay?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you don't, you know, if you're you don't need to put out a full album, you know, if it's your first release or even you know your second, you know, like put out a handful of singles, you know, snowball that stuff, you know, tack tack the second single onto the one before that, and the third single onto the two before that, and stuff like that.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: So put out less music more frequently and then just you know build your brand and start owning those channels, you know.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it has to do with the music, the branding, you know, and then just the tiny habits that you develop over time to kind of like grow your career, you know, and and you don't have to do all of the things, you just have to do, you know, like I said, a handful of things really well, so and consistently.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the biggest things.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the things that have made the biggest impact on us and and what we've always focused on.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: So and then uh and then if you're ready to play live, yeah, I mean do that too, you know, because that's the fun part, and and and do it on your own terms, you know.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to go tour um non-stop, but if if you have the means to do that and and you're young and and it's you know you're you're just starting out, then go do it because there's you're still a ton that you're gonna learn, you know.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the best way to get tight is by playing every day, you know.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so there's there's a lot of benefits to doing that too, but I don't think you can go into it right away thinking that's gonna be a moneymaker for you.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's more so about finding your audience and growing your audience and just kind of like building the momentum.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the biggest thing, I think.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sir, it has been a pleasure seeing you.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure talking to you.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have got to make it a point to get my ass up north when it's not so damn cold outside.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's January, friends.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and we gotta run into each other in the real world.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I guarantee we will.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise, dude.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: This has been Red.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: That was fantastic having the opportunity to catch up with an old friend.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Ryan online at RyanBosker.com, go to the fight.com or decibelpromo.com.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Go check him out, seek out his help.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: He will help your brand in major ways.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can find all of this info in the detailed information of this episode.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: And while you're seeking things out, make sure you check out Caught on the Mike in all forms of social media TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can also find me at www.cotonthemic.com.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of kick-ass stuff planned for 2022, and I am so glad that you are on this journey with me today.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: This has been Caught on the Mike with Michael Clark.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Michael Clark.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.