Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Killers Amongst Us: Teen barista Samantha Koenig kidnapped at gunpoint (Part 5)

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Killers Amongst Us: Teen barista Samantha Koenig kidnapped at gunpoint (Part 5) · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:04
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, Welcome back to Killers amongst Us,
0:08
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. The disappearance of
0:15
Speaker 1: a beautiful young barista, Samantha Konig. She vanishes into thin
0:20
Speaker 1: air and into sub zero temperatures this week. Who is
0:25
Speaker 1: Israel Keys? What if anything does he have to do
0:28
Speaker 1: with Samantha joining us to help crack the case. Investigative
0:32
Speaker 1: reporter Casey grow from Alaska and FBI special agent Bobby Chicone,
0:39
Speaker 1: who's actually in on the FBI investigation, joining us to
0:43
Speaker 1: analyze the clues left behind. Cheryl McCullum, director of the
0:46
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, and doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned La psychoanalysts.
0:53
Speaker 1: Today you hear directly from Israel Keys to understand who
1:01
Speaker 1: he is in his own words, When I was smart,
1:07
Speaker 1: I would letting them come to me this remote area
1:18
Speaker 1: kind of go to a remote area that's not anywhere
1:20
Speaker 1: near where you live. I diet other people go to
1:24
Speaker 1: as well. Nancy Grace, Killers amongst Us? How did he
1:34
Speaker 1: do it? How could he be a serial killer? Traveling
1:38
Speaker 1: the country, crossing the country from New Mexico to Anchorage,
1:43
Speaker 1: to Texas to California, killing randomly, seemingly randomly. He lived
1:53
Speaker 1: to separate lives. Listen. He said to the detectives that
1:57
Speaker 1: he found a house and he had staked it out
2:01
Speaker 1: prior to their disappearance and murder. He said, to meet
2:05
Speaker 1: certain criteria for him to get in easily, to get
2:08
Speaker 1: out easily, to have a car. There's no dog, there's
2:12
Speaker 1: no kids. Keys would avoid homes that he thought either
2:17
Speaker 1: had kids or had dogs, simply because they're a complicating factory.
2:21
Speaker 1: I think I even had it pegged down just from
2:23
Speaker 1: looking at the outside because of the way they had
2:25
Speaker 1: their backyards, so it just looked like an older couple
2:31
Speaker 1: that didn't have kids kind of house. That is when
2:34
Speaker 1: Israel Keys is setting at the murder of the Courier family,
2:38
Speaker 1: a man and woman. He would stalk in hiking areas.
2:43
Speaker 1: He would stalk in areas like where Samantha was leaving
2:47
Speaker 1: no connection. As a matter of fact, Bobby Jaco, an
2:51
Speaker 1: FBI special agent who was there recovering Samantha Koenigs dismembered
2:57
Speaker 1: body out of a sub zero l covered in ice,
3:01
Speaker 1: tell me about is your keys kill kits. He would
3:07
Speaker 1: take um what were large five gallon compound buckets that
3:10
Speaker 1: we often see in home improvement stores that are orange
3:14
Speaker 1: and things like that. So he would take something like
3:16
Speaker 1: that UM and put into it the things that he
3:19
Speaker 1: thought he would need for an abduction and a kill.
3:22
Speaker 1: Sometimes they had weapons, knives, guns, they had rope, they
3:27
Speaker 1: had tape, UM, they had gloves. Sometimes they had sche masks,
3:31
Speaker 1: So each one might have been a little different, UM,
3:34
Speaker 1: but they all contained the things to subdue UM and
3:37
Speaker 1: abduct someone and then to ultimately kill that person UM.
3:41
Speaker 1: And so when I went up to up State New
3:43
Speaker 1: York on the Courier case, UM, they had located one
3:47
Speaker 1: of those in that area, and then we went to
3:50
Speaker 1: look a kill kit they they they located. Yeah, So
3:54
Speaker 1: when I went up state New York on the Courier
3:57
Speaker 1: case and took my dive team up there, they had
4:00
Speaker 1: located his kill kit up there, and he had the
4:03
Speaker 1: thought is that he may have used it to actually
4:05
Speaker 1: put it back, so they started analyzing that. I'm not
4:08
Speaker 1: sure if anything ever came of that, but I certainly
4:11
Speaker 1: went to the lake in upstate New York where Keys
4:15
Speaker 1: said he had disposed of mister Currier's weapon, and in
4:19
Speaker 1: less than an hour my divers located that weapon and
4:22
Speaker 1: recovered it exactly where Keys told us it would be.
4:24
Speaker 1: To John Lemley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, were
4:29
Speaker 1: the couriers his first kill? Who are the couriers? And
4:33
Speaker 1: in this scenario, because I'm relating them back to Barista
4:38
Speaker 1: Samantha Koenick, who are the curiers? Let me just start
4:40
Speaker 1: with that. Sure, they were a middle aged couple living
4:45
Speaker 1: in Essex Junction, Vermont, and over the past twenty four
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Speaker 1: to forty eight hours before they were reported missing, family
4:55
Speaker 1: members and people they worked with thought it was very
4:58
Speaker 1: bizarre that they hadn't heard anything from this couple. So
5:03
Speaker 1: police conduct a welfare check. At first, everything looks normal
5:08
Speaker 1: as if they've left town, like their car is gone,
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Speaker 1: But then they notice a window is broken, and inside
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Speaker 1: they find a mix of things that shouldn't be there
5:18
Speaker 1: and things that should be there that are missing, such
5:22
Speaker 1: as some very important medication that if they were going
5:25
Speaker 1: to travel, they'd certainly have it with them, like Lorraine's
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Speaker 1: cardiac medicine, Bill's diabetes medicine, also something very important. Neither
5:36
Speaker 1: Lorraine's purse nor her wallet was there. Also missing Lorraine's
5:41
Speaker 1: gun Ruger Snubnos thirty eight caliber handgun that she kept
5:46
Speaker 1: for protection, and while searching the area outside of the
5:50
Speaker 1: Courier's home, this is when they first realized that there
5:54
Speaker 1: may have been an abduction. They found that the couple's
5:58
Speaker 1: phone line had been severed, and these were not the
6:01
Speaker 1: type of people that would just leave out of the blue,
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Speaker 1: not tell family, not tell co workers where they were going.
6:08
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, no other activity was ever reported in the case,
6:14
Speaker 1: and then it went unsolved for the better part of
6:16
Speaker 1: a year. Take a listen to our friend at WPTZ
6:19
Speaker 1: NBC five. This is Charlie go hardest investigation, the longest
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Speaker 1: investigation I've ever been involved with in twenty eight years.
6:27
Speaker 1: About a half mile down a path at the Woodside
6:29
Speaker 1: Natural Area is where Detective George Murdy says, Israel Keys
6:33
Speaker 1: hit what was used to murder Bill and Lorraine Currier. Yes,
6:37
Speaker 1: this general area, and a lot of what guided us
6:40
Speaker 1: was the sharp bend in the Winnisky River right here.
6:44
Speaker 1: The serial killer told authorities he buried a cash of items,
6:47
Speaker 1: including a handgun, in a box, calling it a murder kid.
6:51
Speaker 1: Federal investigators say Keys initially stashed it in April two
6:55
Speaker 1: thousand and nine. He retrieved it over two years later
6:58
Speaker 1: before killing the Couriers. He then hid most of the
7:01
Speaker 1: items in Parishville, New York, where they remained until he
7:04
Speaker 1: started confessing to his crimes, and they recovered Bill and
7:09
Speaker 1: Lorraine Currier's gun and pieces of what turned out to
7:14
Speaker 1: be the murder weapon. Detective Murdie said he wasn't surprised
7:17
Speaker 1: Keys chose a location like this because a wooded, isolated
7:20
Speaker 1: area would have been in Keys's comfort zone. He was
7:22
Speaker 1: very comfortable out in the woods and in wilderness areas.
7:27
Speaker 1: Murdie can't say if Keys would have returned to Vermont,
7:30
Speaker 1: but doesn't think the murderer would have changed his ways.
7:33
Speaker 1: I think there's a substantial likelihood that he would have
7:36
Speaker 1: killed again if he had remained free. And it seems
7:40
Speaker 1: to me that these kill kits have been made very meticulously.
7:47
Speaker 1: Listen to detectives speaking, his real Keys were one of
7:50
Speaker 1: the most meticulous serial killers that I've ever come across
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Speaker 1: or even heard of. And one of the reasons is
7:58
Speaker 1: these kill kids on these caches of gear that he
8:03
Speaker 1: had stashed away all around the country. These kill kits
8:09
Speaker 1: indicate to the FBI just how frighteningly calculating a killer
8:12
Speaker 1: Keys is. They're also his signature, setting him apart from
8:16
Speaker 1: other serial killers, even though he didn't have an identified victim.
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Speaker 1: The planning really started when he would leave that kit,
8:27
Speaker 1: when he buried that kit in that location, I haven't
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Speaker 1: seen anything like it. It contains things like duct tape, shovels, guns, rope,
8:42
Speaker 1: things that you would use to both capture somebody, to
8:45
Speaker 1: hold them, and then to kill them and dispose of
8:48
Speaker 1: the body afterwards. Draino and LYE and these sorts of
8:51
Speaker 1: cost to chemical agents were present as well. Draino was
8:56
Speaker 1: an idea I had in case they were found right away.
9:00
Speaker 1: I didn't want on the outside of the bodies. The
9:05
Speaker 1: other thought I had that it would start the decomposition
9:09
Speaker 1: and they would break them down a little bit faster.
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Speaker 1: He mentioned having up to twelve cashes stashed in places
9:17
Speaker 1: around the country. He kind of joked about them and said,
9:21
Speaker 1: everybody loves a buried treasure. I was a kid. I
9:24
Speaker 1: always used to dream that I'd find buried trading and
9:26
Speaker 1: I very well might as well create it. You hear
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Speaker 1: him again laughing. You hear him laughing as he describes
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Speaker 1: the killed kits. But the amount of planning the intricate
9:42
Speaker 1: planning to create killed kits, including murder weapons and even
9:47
Speaker 1: draino and then bury them in multiple states all across
9:52
Speaker 1: this country. FBI believes there are still killed kits buried
9:55
Speaker 1: to this day. But back to the couriers. Listen to
10:01
Speaker 1: Israel Keys in his own words, speaking about two of
10:06
Speaker 1: his mini victims, and at that point he was still
10:09
Speaker 1: like trying to talk me out of it. He was like,
10:13
Speaker 1: it's like, just let us go ok I know you're
10:15
Speaker 1: in too deep, but we haven't really seen you. You
10:17
Speaker 1: can still walk away. And I was kind of laughed at,
10:22
Speaker 1: and I was looking, you know, like I don't know
10:25
Speaker 1: if I actually said anything, but in my head, I
10:28
Speaker 1: was like, you don't even know what I planned. Everybody
10:32
Speaker 1: doesn't just walk away about two of his mini victims,
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Speaker 1: And at that point he was still like trying to
10:45
Speaker 1: talk me out of it. He was like, he's like,
10:48
Speaker 1: just let us go okay. I know you're in too deep,
10:51
Speaker 1: but we haven't really seen you. You can still walk away.
10:55
Speaker 1: And I was kind of laughed at and was looking,
10:58
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know if I actually said anything,
11:02
Speaker 1: but the laughter, the laughter, I mean, the feeling of superiority,
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Speaker 1: he's feeling over his victims. Is the couriers, This man
11:20
Speaker 1: and woman are trying to talk him out of killing them.
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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollums. It literally makes me sick to my stomach.
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Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering how the FEDS are feeling sitting
11:31
Speaker 1: there listening to him laughing about the victim is trying
11:35
Speaker 1: to talk him out of murdering them. Nancy. They're feeling
11:39
Speaker 1: confident because the more he talks and the more he laughs,
11:43
Speaker 1: the more they gain and the closer they get to
11:45
Speaker 1: a full confession. So again, yes, he is ridiculous in
11:51
Speaker 1: what he's saying. I mean, it's almost unbelievable. You think
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Speaker 1: he's making this up, except we know that he's not.
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Speaker 1: And these you know, caches that he hidden everywhere, I
12:01
Speaker 1: can guarantee you there's some in places still that will
12:05
Speaker 1: never find. But he not only picked what went in
12:09
Speaker 1: that bucket, he picked where he was going to bury it,
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Speaker 1: and what went in it. I think they were all
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Speaker 1: different for a reason. He didn't need a mask everywhere,
12:19
Speaker 1: he didn't need a gun everywhere. He picked it deliberately.
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Speaker 1: And when you hear him speak, of course he's laughing
12:26
Speaker 1: about it. He was hiding in playing fight. He was
12:29
Speaker 1: superior Nancy. He was playing god. He decided who God
12:35
Speaker 1: and who didn't and win. Local cops had wondered how
12:38
Speaker 1: did the killer get into the Courier home. Well, here's
12:42
Speaker 1: Issuel Keys bragging about how he got in penge. Because
12:47
Speaker 1: usually if there's an alarm system, it'll trigger the alarm.
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Speaker 1: So after I cut that, I was outside for follow
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Speaker 1: an hour or two, waiting through everybody in the neighborhood
13:01
Speaker 1: to go to sleep. He gains access to the house
13:06
Speaker 1: by taking a fan out of a window in the garage.
13:11
Speaker 1: He used a crowbar that he found in the garage
13:15
Speaker 1: to break that glass. Once I was actually in the house,
13:19
Speaker 1: I was probably in the bedroom with them five or
13:22
Speaker 1: six seconds. That really was a Liitz attack on Bill
13:30
Speaker 1: and the Rain who were sleeping in bedrooms with the cooperative.
13:34
Speaker 1: At first is yeah, pretty shocked. Sure people never expected
13:41
Speaker 1: stuff that's from our friends at Oxygen. But listen to Keys,
13:49
Speaker 1: and I'm going to come back to the experts doctor
13:53
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Cheryl McCollum, and Bobby Chicon talking about his demeanor,
13:59
Speaker 1: how he's ragging about killing these two defenseless people. You
14:05
Speaker 1: just make sure they know right away he's in charge
14:09
Speaker 1: and immediately tie him up. I jumped up over on
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Speaker 1: the bed and grabbed her by the neck and shoved
14:15
Speaker 1: her head down into the pillow. He went in fast,
14:21
Speaker 1: he went in armed. He took them captive, put them
14:25
Speaker 1: in their own car. He had found an abandoned farmhouse
14:33
Speaker 1: that was very run down, and that's where he ended
14:36
Speaker 1: up taking Bill in the rain. They were convinced that
14:39
Speaker 1: I had their own. People thought it was a case
14:42
Speaker 1: of mistaken identity or something. First thing that he did
14:46
Speaker 1: is he took Bill downstairs cable tied his hands so
14:50
Speaker 1: he couldn't stand up. Must have taken me longer than
14:54
Speaker 1: I thought, because she had got out of the car.
14:57
Speaker 1: The just crushing part was hearing about her very near escaping.
15:04
Speaker 1: She started running a tackler and roused her up a
15:08
Speaker 1: little bit, and tier Mac's feisty shoes fighting all the time.
15:17
Speaker 1: That's when Keys tells investigators that he's sexually assaults Lorene.
15:22
Speaker 1: That's from our friends at Oxygen to Dotor Bethany Marshall,
15:25
Speaker 1: California's psychoanalyst, Doctor Bethany, I mean, there you see him
15:30
Speaker 1: raping her, but it's is that his motive. I think
15:35
Speaker 1: his motive is actually just to kill. I think it's
15:37
Speaker 1: fall rape is just another aspect of that. With serial killers,
15:41
Speaker 1: sexual perversion, power, and the homicidal instinct are all intertwined.
15:47
Speaker 1: You can't really say one is more important than the other.
15:50
Speaker 1: So these kill kids. The reason they're important to him
15:55
Speaker 1: is that when he methodically puts them together, he probably
15:59
Speaker 1: has sexual arouzzle as he's doing that, because that is
16:02
Speaker 1: like the four play before the crime. He is interesting
16:06
Speaker 1: about the couriers that he didn't care who he sexually assaulted.
16:10
Speaker 1: It could be an adolescent girl, it could be a
16:12
Speaker 1: middle aged man. And he didn't even care if his
16:15
Speaker 1: victims were alive or dead. Okay, so that's how severe
16:19
Speaker 1: the perversion was is it just had to be a body,
16:23
Speaker 1: alive or dead. Now, with serial killers, we know that
16:27
Speaker 1: aggression is processed through the same neural net as sexuality,
16:33
Speaker 1: and somewhere in their neurobiology, sex, sadism, and killing all
16:38
Speaker 1: get I don't know, intertwined, fused, stuck together. So when
16:44
Speaker 1: he took he took the crowbar out of the garage,
16:48
Speaker 1: when he took the screen off the window, when he
16:51
Speaker 1: went into the bedroom, I wouldn't be surprised if this
16:54
Speaker 1: felt like a sexual ritual. And then when he took
16:58
Speaker 1: them to kill them, the idea it would be the
17:00
Speaker 1: way am I gonna? Am I gonna sexually assault them
17:03
Speaker 1: while they're alive, while they're struggling, slash his throat, and
17:06
Speaker 1: then sexually assault him while he lies there dying. That
17:10
Speaker 1: all of it happens at once in his brain. And
17:13
Speaker 1: that's what's so tragic about the couriers is that not
17:16
Speaker 1: only were they killed, but they suffered extraordinarily and he
17:20
Speaker 1: seems to enjoy the suffering. And I'm trying to figure
17:23
Speaker 1: out a motive. Again, Remember, the state never has to
17:26
Speaker 1: prove a motive. State prosecutors are not expected to, under
17:32
Speaker 1: the law, crawl into the mind of a devil, as
17:37
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum put it, like Israel keys and figure out
17:41
Speaker 1: what's happening. But there are clues that maybe part of
17:45
Speaker 1: the motive is sexual. We know that he put Samantha
17:50
Speaker 1: Koenig in a sex torture chamber that he created and
17:53
Speaker 1: a shed even had a radio out in the shed
17:57
Speaker 1: to turn the music up super high, so he has
18:00
Speaker 1: old friend and daughter could not hear her screaming, and
18:04
Speaker 1: it goes all the way back to his very first
18:08
Speaker 1: victim that we know I've listened to keys. In his
18:11
Speaker 1: own words, his first plan to sexually assault and kill
18:14
Speaker 1: somebody happened in Wapping, Oregon in nineteen ninety seven. He
18:20
Speaker 1: went through everything he did to stake things out and
18:23
Speaker 1: identify where the best place was to take a victim.
18:28
Speaker 1: That's an area where people raft and tube down the
18:31
Speaker 1: Dashoots river, and he claimed that a girl had been
18:34
Speaker 1: separated from her party. He was able to pick off
18:40
Speaker 1: the wounded deer in the herd, and much like a
18:45
Speaker 1: wolf for a pack of wolves would do, found her
18:47
Speaker 1: to be the easiest target, and in fact that was
18:49
Speaker 1: his mo early on. They took her into the outhouse
18:56
Speaker 1: structure and that's where he sexually assaulted her. What was
19:03
Speaker 1: the name of the girl that you right? Oh? She
19:06
Speaker 1: told me her first name was Leah, Lena leaning something else. Yeah,
19:19
Speaker 1: it was that the first time you said to yourself,
19:21
Speaker 1: with some depends what your definition is. So that's the
19:26
Speaker 1: first time you hit sex with somebody against their rule. No,
19:30
Speaker 1: but that was the first time like I had something
19:36
Speaker 1: tied up, you know, like it was ready to actually
19:39
Speaker 1: don't do that. Yeah, she wasn't the first person that
19:43
Speaker 1: you had sex with. It wasn't a willing participant and
19:46
Speaker 1: made this one because you tied her up because I
19:49
Speaker 1: would gonna kill her, and she knew I was gonna
19:53
Speaker 1: kill her. He kind of joked that she got inside
19:59
Speaker 1: his head and she was asking him some personal questions
20:02
Speaker 1: and kind of interact with him on a personal level.
20:06
Speaker 1: She was talking to me and telling me, you know
20:11
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Oh, you're a good looking guy. Why
20:13
Speaker 1: are you You know you don't have to do this.
20:17
Speaker 1: I probably would have even gone out with you and
20:19
Speaker 1: all the stuff, and things never got really violent like
20:25
Speaker 1: they could have if she had been fighting me or something.
20:28
Speaker 1: And she was pretty smart she was. I mean, because
20:31
Speaker 1: it worked. I didn't I did. The main thing is
20:35
Speaker 1: I just lost my nerve right at the end. That
20:39
Speaker 1: victim eventually talked him into letting her go. S if
20:43
Speaker 1: you tell anybody about this and I come back and
20:45
Speaker 1: kill you. For like two years after that, I kept
20:47
Speaker 1: telling myself I should have killed her, and I like
20:51
Speaker 1: really beat myself up about that. Wow, you know what
20:56
Speaker 1: I beat myself up about not giving the children enough vegetables.
21:00
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking and hearing him laugh about the victims,
21:04
Speaker 1: and he really beats himself up about the fact that
21:06
Speaker 1: he didn't kill her. I'm seeing a lot of similarities
21:09
Speaker 1: to FBI special agent Bobby Chicone. You can find him
21:13
Speaker 1: at Bobby Chicone dot com. Bobby, I see picking this
21:17
Speaker 1: a similar looking victim Leah that he's describing restraining her,
21:25
Speaker 1: raping her, planning to kill her, committing the deed in
21:30
Speaker 1: an outhouse as he describes it, compared to the shed
21:34
Speaker 1: in which he sex assaulted and murdered Samantha Konig. I mean,
21:40
Speaker 1: he thinks he's so smart, but he's committing the same
21:44
Speaker 1: m O modus operandi method of operation over and over
21:47
Speaker 1: and over. Yes, But the important thing here, Nancy, is
21:50
Speaker 1: to look at these two cases and look at the
21:52
Speaker 1: evolution of a killer. So here he brought her back
21:56
Speaker 1: to an outhouse which is in the public for everybody
21:58
Speaker 1: to use. As he matures as a killer, as he
22:01
Speaker 1: gets better at his craft, he now has a shed
22:04
Speaker 1: under his control that he's already pre outfitted with restraining devices.
22:09
Speaker 1: So the change in this first attempted murder and rape
22:14
Speaker 1: to the current situation that we have with Samantha Koning
22:18
Speaker 1: is you can see the difference. You can see how
22:20
Speaker 1: much he has honed his skills, how much he has
22:23
Speaker 1: learned from prior incidents, and he says I should have
22:26
Speaker 1: killed her. He learned from that initial incident and he
22:30
Speaker 1: changed his methods and he got better. And this is
22:33
Speaker 1: what we often find with killers like this, They get
22:35
Speaker 1: better as they learn from their mistakes, if they don't
22:38
Speaker 1: get caught from those mistakes. So these two incidents they
22:43
Speaker 1: show us a stark difference. And you know, the maturation
22:46
Speaker 1: and the expertise that he was developing in his craft,
22:50
Speaker 1: which is to hunt and kill people. Well, what's so
22:52
Speaker 1: amazing to me? And I'm going to let you explain
22:55
Speaker 1: this in your way, Cheryl McCollum. But with all of
22:59
Speaker 1: this happen, the raping, the murderer, he still doesn't want
23:03
Speaker 1: his daughter to find out about dismembering Samantha Knig. Listen
23:09
Speaker 1: to Keys in his own words, if you can stand it,
23:12
Speaker 1: I do want to continue to quadry. I'm harving some
23:17
Speaker 1: issues as far as somewhat of an unrealizeded expectation on
23:26
Speaker 1: my part, But I was thinking there might be a
23:29
Speaker 1: way to disclose all this information to Maybe you want
23:33
Speaker 1: to do that, Yeah, and to some way ensure somehow
23:41
Speaker 1: ensure that we work out some sort of a dreaming
23:44
Speaker 1: that you know, I give you all the answer mons cases,
23:47
Speaker 1: and I I want to get closer and find his
23:53
Speaker 1: movie and many of the as possible. And and in
24:00
Speaker 1: return for that, you know, I you know, I don't
24:04
Speaker 1: find on being around a whole lot longer. But it
24:06
Speaker 1: was really big concern to me, is um, you know
24:10
Speaker 1: I didn't gonna be around. I don't want her to
24:13
Speaker 1: take my name in the computer an my big pop up.
24:15
Speaker 1: But you know, you know, I already know stuffing top
24:21
Speaker 1: I know that, but um, I just trying to minimize
24:29
Speaker 1: that at this point, I go and what I would
24:31
Speaker 1: hoping to do, and um, apparently it's going to be
24:34
Speaker 1: really difficult h giving that assurance. So I'm trying to,
24:40
Speaker 1: you know, figure out a way to and so do that.
24:44
Speaker 1: So schry McCollum again, he's worried about his daughter finding
24:47
Speaker 1: out about the dismemberment of Samantha Kney. He's living two
24:52
Speaker 1: lots for him. The dismemberment was a level very different
24:59
Speaker 1: than just frightening someone or shooting someone from a distance.
25:03
Speaker 1: That is grotesque by anybody's definition, and he knew it
25:07
Speaker 1: would be for his daughter, so we wanted to keep
25:10
Speaker 1: that from her. So we've got this life as her dad,
25:14
Speaker 1: he's got this life as a killer. He wanted those
25:17
Speaker 1: two things separated as much as possible. How did he
25:26
Speaker 1: do it? How could he be a serial killer? Traveling
25:30
Speaker 1: the country, crossing the country from New Mexico to Anchorage,
25:35
Speaker 1: to Texas to California, killing randomly, seemingly randomly. He lived
25:45
Speaker 1: two separate lives. Listen, it wasn't until we got into
25:49
Speaker 1: the really detailed conversations about his crimes where you had
25:53
Speaker 1: to kind of step back. And that's why nobody suspected him.
25:55
Speaker 1: He did such a good job of having these two
25:57
Speaker 1: different lives, despite his stable career and newfound commitment to fatherhood.
26:04
Speaker 1: He's tells investigators that he can't suppress his uncontrollable rouge
26:08
Speaker 1: to kill him. He recounts the convincing wise he made
26:13
Speaker 1: up to keep his family in the dark. A lot
26:17
Speaker 1: of stuff that I did was in conjunction with something
26:20
Speaker 1: else that was going on a pretty tight timeline, if
26:22
Speaker 1: you can say so that it ever came up that
26:25
Speaker 1: It's not like I would be in a situation where
26:28
Speaker 1: I did explain where I was for days on end
26:30
Speaker 1: or something. He would make up these stories for why
26:34
Speaker 1: he had to leave on jobs and then take off
26:37
Speaker 1: for blocks of time. He would tell family and friends
26:40
Speaker 1: co workers that he was heading over to eastern Washington
26:43
Speaker 1: to visit family. I may have gone to eastern Washington,
26:46
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean I went to see old friends.
26:48
Speaker 1: I don't have any old friendship. Interestingly, his partner had
26:57
Speaker 1: absolutely no clue about what he was up to. She
27:00
Speaker 1: never suspected or knew anything. A measure of a success
27:04
Speaker 1: was traveling to a place that he has no connection
27:08
Speaker 1: to to commit a murder and then leave right away.
27:11
Speaker 1: Traveling was his way of getting away, both physically and
27:14
Speaker 1: probably psychologically from the stability of the home he had created.
27:18
Speaker 1: It's amazing to me, how does he do it? Bethany,
27:20
Speaker 1: And it's not the first time we've seen it. For instance,
27:24
Speaker 1: btk bind torture killed Dennis Raider was dogcatcher, involved in
27:28
Speaker 1: his church, extremely sanctimonious, with a wife and a family.
27:34
Speaker 1: You've got Ted Bundy, who was a law student whose
27:37
Speaker 1: many people, not me, thought was charming, thought was charismatic.
27:42
Speaker 1: You've got Scott Peterson who had it all, the wife,
27:46
Speaker 1: the baby on the way, the home, the job, the
27:48
Speaker 1: college degree, the golf that their killers, but they put
27:53
Speaker 1: on the they put on a semblance of normalcy. You know, Nancy,
27:58
Speaker 1: when we covered the beach k killer number of years ago,
28:02
Speaker 1: I looked at all the research on serial killers, like
28:06
Speaker 1: what kind of lives do they lead? And one of
28:09
Speaker 1: the things the research showed is that they are often
28:12
Speaker 1: family men in menial jobs. They usually have like two
28:17
Speaker 1: point five children, like the national average, and they often
28:21
Speaker 1: drive a family van or a family vehicle of some sort.
28:26
Speaker 1: And in this case with Israel Keys, and we saw
28:28
Speaker 1: with BTK and all the other serial killers you mentioned,
28:31
Speaker 1: they do live double lives, but not because they love
28:34
Speaker 1: their families. It's as we talk about earlier, they want
28:38
Speaker 1: to put on the mask of sanity. They know something's
28:42
Speaker 1: wrong with them, they know that they are not like
28:45
Speaker 1: the rest, but they assemble a superficial life like putting
28:49
Speaker 1: on a costume. But you know, when we go to
28:52
Speaker 1: a costume party, that costume is just good for that night.
28:55
Speaker 1: You know, we throw it in the closet at the
28:56
Speaker 1: end of the night. We don't think about it doesn't
28:58
Speaker 1: mean anything. That's like their families are like a costume
29:02
Speaker 1: to that they have superficial interest. But this whole thing
29:06
Speaker 1: about his daughter, I think in just some cheap kind
29:10
Speaker 1: of way, he wants his daughter to look up to him.
29:13
Speaker 1: It's like just simple pride and it's nothing more than that.
29:18
Speaker 1: He doesn't want her to think of him badly. But
29:21
Speaker 1: she's going to, right, She's going to grow up and
29:23
Speaker 1: read all the news reports. So this is how shallow
29:26
Speaker 1: his thinking is. Well, it's quite the dichotomy that he
29:30
Speaker 1: wants to have a family and a family life. Cheryl McCollum,
29:34
Speaker 1: I mean, we've dealt with serial killers so many many times,
29:38
Speaker 1: and I'm always amazed they have a normal life. They
29:41
Speaker 1: see that's part of it. They grow up knowing that's
29:43
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do. I mean, they watch TV,
29:46
Speaker 1: they see movies, they see neighbors. They won't that on
29:49
Speaker 1: some level they just know they can't have it. So
29:53
Speaker 1: again they won't. The facade and that also in a
29:57
Speaker 1: really bizarre way with BTK helps them continue their crime.
30:02
Speaker 1: How does he do it? You can how does he
30:05
Speaker 1: have a normal life when he's traveling across the country,
30:09
Speaker 1: raping and killing. He adds bank robberies to his repertoire.
30:13
Speaker 1: How does he do it? And then he comes home
30:15
Speaker 1: to a wife and a daughter. Yeah, and I think
30:18
Speaker 1: I agree with Charlotte. I don't. I don't. I think
30:20
Speaker 1: it's all the facade for him. I think it's it's
30:22
Speaker 1: it's it's a disguise that he uses. The normalcy is
30:26
Speaker 1: a disguise. He doesn't really want that. He knows he
30:29
Speaker 1: needs it in society because he was raised to think
30:32
Speaker 1: that this is what people do. So this is what
30:34
Speaker 1: he has to do to be able to maintain this
30:37
Speaker 1: facade so that he can then go and pursue his
30:40
Speaker 1: life's passion and his life's work, which is to hunt
30:43
Speaker 1: and kill people. That's what he's made to do. If
30:46
Speaker 1: society didn't have these rules, he probably wouldn't need that facade.
30:49
Speaker 1: So the facade only serves the function of keeping him hidden,
30:53
Speaker 1: keeping him out in the public, so that he's not
30:55
Speaker 1: caged like an animal. So he knows that, so you know,
30:59
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to have that family life. He doesn't
31:02
Speaker 1: want any of that. It's a useful tool. It's just
31:05
Speaker 1: like a ski mask that he might pull over to
31:07
Speaker 1: hide his identity. That's what all about. Trappings are and
31:10
Speaker 1: he has learned that through his upbringing that he needs
31:13
Speaker 1: to maintain that so that he can go off and
31:16
Speaker 1: do these other things that he's really basically and primarily
31:20
Speaker 1: driven to do. You know, Bobby, I've actually as many
31:24
Speaker 1: times if I've dealt with serial killers, I've never thought
31:28
Speaker 1: about it like that. I didn't think about it that way.
31:30
Speaker 1: That these families, or being the deacon in the church,
31:36
Speaker 1: or the dogcatcher, or the law student or the fertilizer salesman,
31:42
Speaker 1: that's that's all just props. That's like putting on stage
31:48
Speaker 1: makeup and you know, a costume. That's what those people
31:56
Speaker 1: are to you. That's all they are to you. They
32:00
Speaker 1: make it possible for you to be literally a wolf
32:08
Speaker 1: in this world. Listen. Investigators suspect he's killed a total
32:13
Speaker 1: of eight people after they learned of five potential victims
32:16
Speaker 1: in Washington State. But it was after taking those five
32:20
Speaker 1: lives that Keys comes to a crossroads in his personal life.
32:26
Speaker 1: He decides that his girlfriend, struggling with alcoholism, is an
32:29
Speaker 1: unfit mother, so he seeks a better life for his
32:32
Speaker 1: daughter an anchorage. He's been a handyman from much of
32:40
Speaker 1: his life, so he opened his own contracting business. He
32:47
Speaker 1: really fooled everybody. I mean, there was no indication for
32:51
Speaker 1: anybody in Anchorage that he was up to anything other
32:54
Speaker 1: than carpentry. He was of living what seemed to be
33:02
Speaker 1: a responsible life, but it was more like islands that
33:06
Speaker 1: were punctuated by channels that were turbulent and dangerous. He
33:12
Speaker 1: could be on firm ground for a little while, but
33:14
Speaker 1: it wouldn't last. Keys tell special Agent Joline Golden and
33:20
Speaker 1: her team, and in the spring of two thousand and nine,
33:22
Speaker 1: he traveled to the East Coast under the guise of
33:25
Speaker 1: visiting family. During the strip, Keys had committed a homicide.
33:31
Speaker 1: He had acknowledged that to us. Our computer forensic team
33:36
Speaker 1: had gotten hold of his computer to see what kind
33:38
Speaker 1: of news article he searching, and they found Deborah Feldman's
33:41
Speaker 1: name on the computer. Deborah Feldman was a woman the
33:46
Speaker 1: FBI had identified as going missing and around this time.
33:49
Speaker 1: She was someone who was estranged from her family, and
33:52
Speaker 1: I think that they assume that she had just run off.
33:57
Speaker 1: She was someone who lived a very high risk lifestyle.
34:01
Speaker 1: She had addiction issues, may have lived on the street
34:04
Speaker 1: for a while, and these is the type of people
34:06
Speaker 1: that unfortunately fall prey to people like Keys. In her case,
34:10
Speaker 1: a very little media attention was not one that he
34:14
Speaker 1: would have had any reason to know about, so to
34:16
Speaker 1: find her name on it was really significant. We pulled
34:20
Speaker 1: photographs of several missing people, and when we got to
34:23
Speaker 1: Deborah's photograph, his demeanor changed a bit. Do you know
34:28
Speaker 1: this person? That's do you know where this person is?
34:40
Speaker 1: For the first time, the investigators see a crack and
34:43
Speaker 1: Keys is cool persona. Keys didn't want to talk about
34:48
Speaker 1: Deborah Felman because it was a turn on the way
34:53
Speaker 1: he was controlling the interrogation process. All of a sudden,
34:58
Speaker 1: we're confronting him with a picture, say do you know
35:01
Speaker 1: this person? So he pushes back and say I don't
35:03
Speaker 1: want to talk about that. He's exercising that control again.
35:08
Speaker 1: This was part of that cat and mouse game, and
35:10
Speaker 1: he was at a point where he, I don't think,
35:12
Speaker 1: felt that he had to give us anything. But he
35:15
Speaker 1: didn't deny it either. Her name was on your computer, Yeah,
35:21
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't understand. You don't understand why the
35:26
Speaker 1: name was on my computer. Well, put it this way.
35:30
Speaker 1: There's a lot of names on that we'll just explain.
35:33
Speaker 1: So we're not sitting here and wondering, No, I'm not,
35:35
Speaker 1: I'm not. No, I'm not gonna talk about let's computer.
35:39
Speaker 1: You're hearing serial killer Israel Keys in his own words
35:43
Speaker 1: and our friends at Oxygen Bobby checkon the debbor they're
35:46
Speaker 1: talking about. Is victim number nine that we know of?
35:51
Speaker 1: How is her murder and Leah's murder similar to that
35:55
Speaker 1: of Samantha Konigan? How do you think he picked Samantha out? Well?
36:00
Speaker 1: The Debora Felman murder is similar because they tied the
36:04
Speaker 1: time of her disappearance to a known trip that Keys
36:07
Speaker 1: took to the area where she disappeared. He also robbed
36:10
Speaker 1: a bank in that area. He drove and robbed a bank,
36:13
Speaker 1: and then he was in the area where Debora Felman
36:16
Speaker 1: disappeared at the time of a disappearance. And then then
36:19
Speaker 1: and they because they found her name and a news
36:21
Speaker 1: article on his computer. And when they confronted him with that,
36:24
Speaker 1: you saw the stark change in his demeanor. He did
36:29
Speaker 1: not like the fact that for change where he was
36:32
Speaker 1: giving the interrogators the situations where he killed people. Now
36:36
Speaker 1: they're saying, we found another one that you did without
36:39
Speaker 1: your help. That frightened him. That that's the loss of
36:42
Speaker 1: control because now the interrogators now are saying, we did
36:46
Speaker 1: some work and we know what you did here. So
36:48
Speaker 1: that's a complete change to that point. And that change,
36:52
Speaker 1: you can see how that change caused his change in demeanor.
36:55
Speaker 1: And he immediately said, no, I'm not going to talk
36:57
Speaker 1: about any names on my computer because now he's he's
37:00
Speaker 1: lost a measure of that control. Um, and that's that's
37:04
Speaker 1: that's a that was a very big turning. So my
37:06
Speaker 1: question is how did he single out Samantha? What do
37:11
Speaker 1: you think, Bobby, Well, Um, we think he singled out
37:14
Speaker 1: the coffee shop itself. So he he knew that that
37:17
Speaker 1: particular coffee shop stayed open I think one hour later
37:21
Speaker 1: than some of the surrounding coffee kiosks that that populated
37:25
Speaker 1: that area, so he staked them out. He knew that
37:28
Speaker 1: that one stayed opened one hour later. Um, it was
37:31
Speaker 1: it was surrounded by a mountain of snow basically, so
37:34
Speaker 1: it was hidden from the street. So I think he
37:36
Speaker 1: picked the actual coffee shop and whoever was closing on
37:38
Speaker 1: that particular night was going to be his victim. I
37:41
Speaker 1: wonder how many times, how many times, Cheryl McCollum he
37:48
Speaker 1: drove by Samantha kon Egg and looked into her coffee
37:53
Speaker 1: stand and decided she was the one I guarantely used
37:58
Speaker 1: at least four He take the coffee shop out, had
38:01
Speaker 1: nothing to do with her once he realized, Hey, after
38:06
Speaker 1: about forty five minutes to close, they stopped having a
38:10
Speaker 1: lot of people. There's not a lot of people around.
38:13
Speaker 1: He thought that location, he knew where to part, he
38:17
Speaker 1: knew how to enter, he knew how to get out,
38:20
Speaker 1: he knew how to do it unseen. He was meticulous
38:24
Speaker 1: in every aspect, Nancy. He knew that general area better
38:28
Speaker 1: than I would say most people that live there. I mean,
38:31
Speaker 1: if you listen to him talk about how he staked
38:33
Speaker 1: out the home of the couriers, the couple, about taking
38:38
Speaker 1: the fan out of the window, about sneaking in, cutting
38:41
Speaker 1: the phone cords. He had watched them for a long time.
38:44
Speaker 1: He had buried a kill kit long before in their vicinity.
38:51
Speaker 1: Same thing here, And just imagine Samantha Cone Egg, night
38:54
Speaker 1: after night after night in that isolated coffee stand. You know, sir,
39:00
Speaker 1: founded by the twelve foot tall snow banks where the
39:03
Speaker 1: snow has been pushed out of the parking area of
39:06
Speaker 1: the parking lot and there she sits like a little
39:11
Speaker 1: canary in a golden case, just sitting there waiting, unbeknownst
39:16
Speaker 1: to her, no idea at all. But then you also
39:19
Speaker 1: have the aspect of the robbery. It's not just about
39:24
Speaker 1: sexual torture. It's not just about the thrill of dominion
39:30
Speaker 1: over his victims later laughing about how they begged to live.
39:35
Speaker 1: You know, he's making a living at this there's a
39:38
Speaker 1: robbery aspect, and it goes all the way back to that.
39:42
Speaker 1: We know of victim number nine, that's Debrah at that point,
39:46
Speaker 1: that is when he started robbing banks. Listener, the reason
39:50
Speaker 1: he was such a successful killing machine was because he
39:54
Speaker 1: knew how to avoid getting caught. The only victim that
39:57
Speaker 1: we recovered is Amantha, and that's because he told us
40:03
Speaker 1: exactly where she was. He was very good at not
40:05
Speaker 1: leaving evidence. Deborah is the ninth victim that the FBI
40:10
Speaker 1: is able to connect to Keys, and although her body
40:13
Speaker 1: has never been recovered, Keys's location at the time of
40:19
Speaker 1: her disappearance supports the theory that she is one of
40:22
Speaker 1: his victims. With Deborah, New Jersey, FBI is asking questions
40:28
Speaker 1: basically because it fits, it fits, the date, fits the
40:32
Speaker 1: place fits. A number of things fit, and the fact
40:35
Speaker 1: that she's on your computer I don't want to talk about.
40:47
Speaker 1: We suspect that Deborah went missing on April ninth, and
40:50
Speaker 1: it was on April eleventh that the bank and Tupper Lake,
40:54
Speaker 1: New York was robbed. We learned that Keys was into
41:01
Speaker 1: bank robberies, and he admitted that was a bank that
41:03
Speaker 1: he had robbed. I walked through the door and there
41:08
Speaker 1: are a lot of people, so I've holding gun out.
41:10
Speaker 1: But then I already had to know, and I was like,
41:12
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense. They've already got the gun out.
41:14
Speaker 1: There's literally a picture where you've got done in one
41:17
Speaker 1: holding gun. The other money cashes were some of the
41:21
Speaker 1: types of cashes that he had. So from that statement,
41:24
Speaker 1: I suspect that he's probably robbed several banks. The idea
41:27
Speaker 1: was we could find the bank that he robbed, maybe
41:29
Speaker 1: we can find the person he murdered, because that seemed
41:32
Speaker 1: to be in similar places. But he was very careful
41:35
Speaker 1: with dolding out information and he understood exactly where we're going.
41:39
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, ast of the things I've done
41:41
Speaker 1: having been for money, and it's hard to make that defense.
41:47
Speaker 1: I didn't get quite a bad that's not really more
41:53
Speaker 1: of the drolling bank robberies are fairly common in our business,
41:58
Speaker 1: but takeover bank robberies where suspect takes over the bank
42:01
Speaker 1: exceedingly rare. Seemed to be one of the things he
42:04
Speaker 1: enjoyed doing after killing someone because it excited him. Mister
42:08
Speaker 1: Keys said it was similar to the type of rush
42:10
Speaker 1: he would get when he would kidnap the victim, but
42:13
Speaker 1: not on the same scale. That's our friends at Oxygen
42:16
Speaker 1: and the words from Hours of Israel Keys statements John Linley.
42:24
Speaker 1: Where the bodies of the couriers ever found? I mean,
42:27
Speaker 1: we've got so many victims. I had made a float chart. No,
42:29
Speaker 1: they were not. Keys were forced into a vacant farmhouse
42:34
Speaker 1: not far from their home. Now, this is a location
42:37
Speaker 1: that Keys had identified earlier as the place where he'd
42:41
Speaker 1: take a couple. He hadn't identified at the time which one,
42:45
Speaker 1: but take a couple and then killed them. Keys placed
42:49
Speaker 1: the courier's bodies in separate garbage bags in one corner
42:53
Speaker 1: of that abandoned farmhouse basement. He poured draino on them
42:58
Speaker 1: to speed decomposition, than covered them with debris. Now, not
43:03
Speaker 1: knowing as the months passed that the old burned out
43:06
Speaker 1: house was actually a crime scene. Someone at some point
43:10
Speaker 1: had bulldozed the charred remains and hauled them all to
43:14
Speaker 1: a landfill. By the time investigators realized the full story
43:18
Speaker 1: of what had happened to the couriers, the debris and
43:21
Speaker 1: presumably the couple's remains had been there for some time.
43:25
Speaker 1: A long search of the landfill was conducted, but the
43:28
Speaker 1: courier's bodies were never recovered, and at this point authorities
43:32
Speaker 1: really don't expect to ever find them, isn't it true?
43:35
Speaker 1: John Linley one of his hunting grounds was cemeteries. Yes, indeed,
43:41
Speaker 1: he seemed to have a fascination with cemeteries as a
43:45
Speaker 1: part of his travel. One thing that investigators began to
43:49
Speaker 1: see is that a picture of Keys' life was He
43:54
Speaker 1: liked to be a tourist. He liked to travel. He
43:57
Speaker 1: liked the freedom of moving around the country exploring new places.
44:00
Speaker 1: So very much like many of us, he'd scope out
44:04
Speaker 1: where he wanted to go, where he'd like to stay.
44:06
Speaker 1: He'd make airline in riddle car reservations. Unlike many of us, though,
44:11
Speaker 1: instead of say, visiting an historic landmark or maybe catching
44:16
Speaker 1: up with family or friends. He said he had none.
44:19
Speaker 1: His vacation activities centered around murdering a random person or
44:25
Speaker 1: maybe two, if you're trying to compare him to me,
44:28
Speaker 1: taking the twins to historic sites or Disney. He didn't
44:32
Speaker 1: stop right there. You know the way he talks. He
44:37
Speaker 1: talked for how many hours, Bobby chi con Oh, dozens
44:41
Speaker 1: of hours. I don't know the exact number, but he
44:43
Speaker 1: spoke for dozens of hours. There were many, many trips,
44:46
Speaker 1: all in control. I can just imagine him kicked back,
44:49
Speaker 1: smoking his cigar, laughing about all of his victims. It's
44:53
Speaker 1: a miracle in my mind, Bobby, that the body of
44:57
Speaker 1: Samantha was ever found, because we never got Deborah's body,
45:01
Speaker 1: we never found the courier's body. There are so many
45:05
Speaker 1: others out there I think we don't know about and
45:10
Speaker 1: we never found. And what's eerie that I can't shake
45:16
Speaker 1: this is that he walked among us undetected for decades, killing,
45:27
Speaker 1: planning the killings, enjoying the killings, savoring the killings. I mean,
45:33
Speaker 1: when I pull up at a red light and I
45:35
Speaker 1: look around, this guy Keys makes me automatically lock my doors,
45:46
Speaker 1: because killers walk among us. In case you're wondering Israel
45:54
Speaker 1: Keys committed suicide behind bars. Nancy Grace starting y'all good
46:02
Speaker 1: back end