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Parents of Mass Shooter Ethan Crumbley Blow Wet Kisses in Court · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace blowing kisses, sending love signals,
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Speaker 1: secret signals, and court while each of them are charged
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Speaker 1: with four counts of homicide. Really, I'm talking about the
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Speaker 1: parents a school shooter Athan Crumley. Take a listen to
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Speaker 1: our friends and Inside Edition. Their son is accused of
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Speaker 1: killing four students during a school rampage in Michigan last November,
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Speaker 1: and the parents are facing their own serious charges of
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Speaker 1: manslaughter for allegedly allowing him access to a gun. Now,
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Speaker 1: prosecutors want them to stop acting all lovey dovey in courts.
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Speaker 1: It started when James Crumbley was seen mouthing I love
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Speaker 1: you to his wife Jennifer at a court hearing last December,
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Speaker 1: following their dramatic arrest at a warehou house in Detroit
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Speaker 1: where they were hiding out. Crumbly looked on the verge
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Speaker 1: of tears. Jennifer kept stealing glances in his direction. Then,
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Speaker 1: during a recent court hearing via zoom, Jennifer tries to
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Speaker 1: communicate with her hands. Next, she waves and then tells
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Speaker 1: her husband she loves him. The prosecutors say the romantic
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Speaker 1: moments must come to an end immediately. The courtroom is
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Speaker 1: not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals.
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Speaker 1: This is a time for families to pursue justice, and
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Speaker 1: those families are the parents and the loved ones of
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Speaker 1: the students that were murdered at a public high school.
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Speaker 1: Can you imagine you take your children to school that morning,
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Speaker 1: or you put them on the bus, and then the
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Speaker 1: next thing you know, you get urgent texts, You may
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Speaker 1: see a flash on the news. Your child is dead
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Speaker 1: from a school shooter. And by all accounts, the parents
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Speaker 1: had plenty of warning. His parents, Ethan Crumley's parents had
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Speaker 1: plenty of warning that there was something very, very wrong.
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Speaker 1: And then you go to court to follow the case
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Speaker 1: for your child was murdered, and you have to watch
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Speaker 1: these two mouthing kissy kissy in the courtroom. Can you
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Speaker 1: imagine how angry they feel. I think anger is one
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Speaker 1: of the stages of grief. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
2:29
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
2:32
Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. For those of
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Speaker 1: you that are not familiar with what we're talking about,
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Speaker 1: the school shooter, Ethan Crumley, take a listen to our
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Speaker 1: cut twenty nine from our friends My TV Home Fox
2:47
Speaker 1: be on the lookout. A BOLO alert has been issued
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Speaker 1: for James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of Ethan Crumbley,
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Speaker 1: they accused Oxford High School shooter. Now, we did have
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Speaker 1: our reporter confirmed through two police departments that a statewide
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Speaker 1: BOLO was issued for the Crumblies just here on Friday afternoon,
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Speaker 1: hours after they were charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection
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Speaker 1: to the Oxford High School shootings. Now a description of
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Speaker 1: the vehicle or a last possibly known location was released.
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Speaker 1: Anyone who sees the Crumblies, they are pitcher here on
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Speaker 1: your screen in that left hand box, your urge to
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Speaker 1: call police. The Crumblies were charged just today with four
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Speaker 1: accounts of involuntary manslaughter, while some argue the parents should
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Speaker 1: be charged with much much more because in many jurisdictions,
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Speaker 1: involuntary manslaughter can carry a sentence of probation. Yes, that's
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Speaker 1: true with me and I'll star panel to make sense
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Speaker 1: of what we know right now. Darryl Cohen, high profile
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Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of Atlanta. Former felony prosecutor now
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Speaker 1: defense attorney. Doctor Jillian Peterson forensic psycho bologists, professor criminology
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Speaker 1: at Hameline University in Saint Paul and an expert on
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Speaker 1: mass shootings. The author of the Violence Project How to
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Speaker 1: Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, Lecturer,
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Speaker 1: University Florida, host of a hit series Shattered Souls podcast.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical Emeritus Professor Pathology, University Michigan,
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Speaker 1: author of Death Investigation in America. Jessica Dupnak, reporter Fox
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Speaker 1: to Detroit, who has been on this case from the
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Speaker 1: very beginning. Can I just ask this, Jessica, how sickening
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Speaker 1: is it for the victims families in court to watch
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Speaker 1: Ethan Cromley's parents blow kisses to each other, not to
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Speaker 1: their son, not supporting him, but to each other. And
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Speaker 1: keeping in mind, these are the parents that had all
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Speaker 1: sorts of alarms and bombs going off in the background,
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Speaker 1: but they did nothing to stop their son. These are
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Speaker 1: also the parents, to my understanding, that drained the bank
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Speaker 1: account of three grand and planned to leave him their
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Speaker 1: son behind and go to Florida darragus horses. So how
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Speaker 1: is that affecting everyone in court? To watch these two
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Speaker 1: la law in court? It's disgusting. We were there and
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Speaker 1: it was one of those things where you watch it
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Speaker 1: and playback and you're saying yourself, did they really just
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Speaker 1: sign to one another and blow kisses? I mean, it
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Speaker 1: totally demeans the entire process, let alone for these families
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Speaker 1: of these children. It's unbelievable. And it doesn't shock me
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Speaker 1: though now knowing the history of this family and just
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Speaker 1: some of the despicable behavior that has come out in court.
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Speaker 1: You know, I want to go to you, doctor Jillian Peterson,
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Speaker 1: forensic psychologist Arthur the Violence Project, how to stop at
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Speaker 1: mass shooting epidemic. And I know your expertise, but I
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Speaker 1: want to ask you about just propriety. You have dead
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Speaker 1: children gunned down at school, just starting their lives, and
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Speaker 1: then their families have to watch these two salivating over
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Speaker 1: each other in court. You know, somehow, doctor Peterson, I
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Speaker 1: would feel it more acceptable if the mom or the
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Speaker 1: dad mauth I love you to their son, as opposed
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Speaker 1: to each other. Now that's just me, but this is
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Speaker 1: really rubbing me the wrong way, doctor Peterson. You know,
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Speaker 1: I agree, it's so wildly inappropriate. It's just hard to
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Speaker 1: imagine what they're thinking. And if they take this that
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Speaker 1: sort of unseriously, they don't understand what these families have
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Speaker 1: been through. If they don't understand what this court process
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Speaker 1: means to the families, the victims themselves, their son, and
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Speaker 1: it just kind of speaks to their mindset. I think
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Speaker 1: of how bizarre they are sort of as people, as parents,
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Speaker 1: as a family, and the whole thing leading up to
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Speaker 1: this point. It's hard to understand. And then their behavior
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Speaker 1: in court is just kind of the icing on the
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Speaker 1: cake where it's just absolutely unbelievable. You know, Daryl Cohen,
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Speaker 1: I introduced you earlier, Correct, Darryl former prosecutor and now
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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer in Atlanta. Correct, you did, indeed, Daryl,
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Speaker 1: so many times in court I would see parents of
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Speaker 1: the defendant and the defendant could be a killer. Just
7:47
Speaker 1: before we went to air, I was talking to you
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Speaker 1: about a judge that you and I share and I
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Speaker 1: think you prosecuted and defended in front of him, and
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Speaker 1: a particular case I prosecuted where I think was the
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Speaker 1: youngest murderer ever in city Atlanta, Fulton County to be
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Speaker 1: tried as an adult. Now, before you hate me, Daryl Cohen,
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Speaker 1: this child was about six three and he ran into
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Speaker 1: a pawn shop guns a blazing. He killed either one
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Speaker 1: or two people, and he permanently paralyzed another still in
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Speaker 1: a wheelchair today, for a handful of dope ropes, gold chains,
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Speaker 1: and then ran out. He had two accomplices. I think
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Speaker 1: that we're seventeen or eighteen twin brothers, I might add,
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Speaker 1: which was a whole host of problems for me as
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Speaker 1: a prosecutor. But I started with him. We severed the cases.
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Speaker 1: I severed them because I didn't want him tried together.
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Speaker 1: I severed the cases, tried him first, and I don't
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Speaker 1: have any problem with it. So when you look at
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Speaker 1: the defendant, even though he is a juvenile, you look
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Speaker 1: at what he did. I don't have a problem typically
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Speaker 1: with the parents showing up to court to support their son,
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Speaker 1: even if he's a devil from hell mouthing I love you,
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Speaker 1: trying to ask the sheriff. Can I just taught to
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Speaker 1: him for one minute, showing their love. I would absolutely never, ever,
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Speaker 1: you know, abandoned my children, no matter what they did.
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Speaker 1: But for the parents to be drooling on each other
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Speaker 1: in court, that's a whole, a whole another can of worms. Daryl, Well, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: this is unbelievable to me because when you go to court.
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Speaker 1: You can't change what happened before. What you can change
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Speaker 1: is a perception of reality. And the parents should have
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Speaker 1: been there reaching out to the victim's family, not huggy
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Speaker 1: huggy kissing mouth. I love you. I love you to
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Speaker 1: the son that works for me, and I'm right there
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Speaker 1: with you, But I love you to each other. It's
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Speaker 1: as if the poor victim's family has nothing. That's just
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Speaker 1: no big deal. We're watching a movie. They can't tell
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Speaker 1: their child I love you, you know, Darryl. I should probably,
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Speaker 1: you know, tell this to the shrink. And I say
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Speaker 1: that in a loving, caring way, Doctor Peterson. After I
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Speaker 1: do a program like the one we're doing right now,
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Speaker 1: I have to get in the car and drive to
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Speaker 1: the school where the twins are in school. Make sure
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Speaker 1: it's not in a lockdown or some horrible thing hasn't happened.
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Speaker 1: I mean, that is the way this has affected so
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Speaker 1: many people, this school shooting. I mean, Jessica, dupe, jessicam
10:42
Speaker 1: I saying your last name correctly. It's kind of a
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Speaker 1: bad feeling. I'm not Nope, you got it. I'm so
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Speaker 1: happy that rarely happens. Jessica joining us from Fox Too.
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Speaker 1: They're in Detroit. The day that this happened was a
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Speaker 1: day I will never get. Take us into our cut
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Speaker 1: for our friend Pierre Thomas at ABC. Student John Edwards
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Speaker 1: describing the chaos to our affiliate w x y Z pay.
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Speaker 1: We hear our principal, mister Wolf shouting, Alice, lockdown, Alice, lockdown,
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Speaker 1: and then we heard the gun shots in the class,
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Speaker 1: and so we locked down, turned the lights off. Our
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Speaker 1: teacher got paper taped over the window on the door
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Speaker 1: and got his two big tables and barricaded the door.
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Speaker 1: It's just scared. I was praying for, you know, my safety,
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Speaker 1: my friend's safety, you know, everyone's safety. Edwards able to
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Speaker 1: call his mother and I could hear the hear in
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Speaker 1: his voice, and I told him, I said, maybe I'm
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Speaker 1: on my way. I've never been so scared in my life.
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Speaker 1: School officials left. Really, of course, I'm shocked. That's a devastagent,
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Speaker 1: you know, um doctor Peterson. When I'm hearing that, my
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Speaker 1: eyes just fill up with tears, and I got chilled
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Speaker 1: because I can't help think about my own children, who
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Speaker 1: I think are safe and tucked away in school. That's
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Speaker 1: what I think, and at their school it's locked down,
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Speaker 1: you can't get in, the windows are a lot, the
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Speaker 1: doors are locked, there is security, the whole shebang. But
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Speaker 1: this threat was from with Anne and there's not a
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Speaker 1: darned thing a parent can do about it. Yeah, that's
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Speaker 1: one thing we've found in researching these cases. Of course,
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Speaker 1: there's the absolute devastating loss for the families that lost
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Speaker 1: their own children, but then the ripple effect of this
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Speaker 1: tragedy just it goes really across the country. There's the
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Speaker 1: kids who were locked down in the school, which that
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Speaker 1: has lifelong effects of being terrified that you were going
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Speaker 1: to be shot. There's their parents and families unsure if
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Speaker 1: they were okay or not. And I agree, I'm a
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Speaker 1: mother of three kids. I have the same sort of
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Speaker 1: dut reaction where parents across the country kind of feel
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Speaker 1: the fear and suddenly their school feels like an unsafe
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Speaker 1: place to send their children. And then we saw hundreds
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Speaker 1: of copycat threats in the weeks following this, where schools
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Speaker 1: were sort of shutting down and locking down on a
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Speaker 1: daily basis across the country. I mean, the fear and
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Speaker 1: the anxiety and the trauma this cause of people across
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Speaker 1: the country. This one incident. It's really hard to grasp
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Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace. So much has been happening
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Speaker 1: in the case since it first citizens shootings first went down,
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Speaker 1: And I don't want to get stuck on the parents,
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Speaker 1: the Cromley parents playing kissy facing court, but that is concerning.
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear our cut too. This is
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Speaker 1: raw classroom video from the classroom the day of the
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Speaker 1: mass shooting. Our cut too. Yeah come out, yeah, he said,
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Speaker 1: season time. We're not we are we gonna take that
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Speaker 1: risk right out. We're not taking that rice right out. Yeah, bro,
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Speaker 1: he said, Bro, red flags ring my home. So hold
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Speaker 1: on your phone. You were hearing students climbing out of
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Speaker 1: a window they see a police officer. It's just this
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Speaker 1: hurts me hearing them scramble trying to save their own lives.
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Speaker 1: Straight back to you, Jessica, to tell us what happened
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Speaker 1: that day. I mean we got there. I mean, as
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Speaker 1: we talked about, there's so many false alarms when it
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Speaker 1: comes to these threats, but when we got there, we
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Speaker 1: knew it was real. I mean it was just total chaos.
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Speaker 1: I mean that we were staged where families were being
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Speaker 1: reunited and just being able to see these parents after
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Speaker 1: hours reuniting with their kids just in a daze, you know,
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Speaker 1: as if you don't even know what they've seen, the
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Speaker 1: bloodied hallways, the bathrooms, and you could just see it
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Speaker 1: on their faces that this is a stain that's going
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Speaker 1: to hurt these kids forever. And it was just total chaos.
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Speaker 1: And then within twenty four hours a source told me
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Speaker 1: that heads are going to roll, and I didn't understand
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Speaker 1: what that meant. But now we go back to all
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Speaker 1: the signs that led up to this, that led up
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Speaker 1: to this fifteen year old coming into this school. It's
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Speaker 1: just as insult to injury to know that this absolutely
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Speaker 1: could have been prevented by many people involved. It's just
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Speaker 1: it's sickening. The victims, Hannah Saint, Julianna Tate Meyer, Madison Baldwin,
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Speaker 1: Justin Schilling, as young as fourteen years old, gundown dead
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Speaker 1: in their school. Then seven other students were shot and lived.
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Speaker 1: A seventeen year old girl gunshot wound to the chest, critical,
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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl gunshot wound left chest and neck.
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Speaker 1: Seventeen year old girl gunshot wound to the neck. Fourteen
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Speaker 1: year old boy shot, fifteen year old boy gunshot wound
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Speaker 1: to the left leg, seventeen year old boy gunshot wound
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Speaker 1: to the hip, a forty seven year old teacher gunshot
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Speaker 1: wound to the left shoulder. I want to go out
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Speaker 1: to special guests joining us, Doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical
16:57
Speaker 1: Emeritus Professor Pathology, University Michigan. Doctor Jensen, thank you for
17:02
Speaker 1: being with us with the murder victims Hannitate Madison and
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Speaker 1: justin how long do you believe they would have been
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Speaker 1: aware after the shooting of what was going on around them? Typically,
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Speaker 1: with gunshot wounds that are fatal in either striking in
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Speaker 1: the order or heart or lungs, a person has conscious
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Speaker 1: pain and suffering for at least thirty seconds or so.
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Speaker 1: It takes that long for the oxygen content to decline
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Speaker 1: enough for the person to go into a coma. And
17:43
Speaker 1: so typically an individual who have about thirty seconds worth
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Speaker 1: of oxygen and consciousness in a gunshot wound that basically
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Speaker 1: spares the head and neck area. And I would like
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Speaker 1: to comment that even wounds to the stremities are particularly
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Speaker 1: potentially fatal if they strike major arteries, and that there
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Speaker 1: is not immediate medical care available such as the thermal
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Speaker 1: artery and the leg of course, the jugular veine obviously.
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Speaker 1: And I've noticed, doctor Jenson, that several of these victims
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Speaker 1: were shot in the neck, and I wonder if the
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Speaker 1: perp was trying to shoot them in the head and
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Speaker 1: got them in the neck. But there are shootings, for instance,
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Speaker 1: when you take a GSW gunshot wound to say, your chest,
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Speaker 1: and you don't bleed out immediately, but you're lung slowly,
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Speaker 1: are filling up with blood and spitting it up. It's
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Speaker 1: coming out your nose in your mouth. That takes a
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Speaker 1: little bit longer to die, Doctor Jensen. Yes, if the
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Speaker 1: wound itself is not fatal, but then there's blood or
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Speaker 1: hemorrhage that accumulates and into the airways. The person could
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Speaker 1: dive from prolonged to sixty or a lack of oxygen
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Speaker 1: because of the obstruction of the airways. And imagining as
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Speaker 1: young as fourteen, Hannah lying in the floor, knowing some
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Speaker 1: what what's happening around her, everybody running and screaming, her
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Speaker 1: parents are there, nobody's there with her, and she dies
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Speaker 1: in the floor of the school like that. Why And
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Speaker 1: of course, and I wouldcall this Karen Smith, Karen Forensic
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Speaker 1: expert and lecturer, host of Shattered Soul's podcast. Karen, I
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Speaker 1: remember the processing it took. Let's just say, on my
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Speaker 1: first triple homicide, that was a lot of processing the scene.
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Speaker 1: Then my best friend in the DA's office, who you
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Speaker 1: will remember, Darryl al Dickson. I remember the days and
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Speaker 1: days it took to process the scene at the Fulton
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Speaker 1: County Courthouse shooting where there were mass victims, shooting like this,
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Speaker 1: Karen Smith is that's a very difficult crime scene explained.
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Speaker 1: It's very difficult on a number of levels, not just
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Speaker 1: the evidence. The investigators are having to digest what they're
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Speaker 1: seeing too, and it's you know, I've had five people
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Speaker 1: shot in one place. That was the most for me.
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Speaker 1: And I can tell you we were there for days.
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Speaker 1: And it's not just collecting the bullet casing, taking blood samples,
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Speaker 1: taking photographs, looking through that viewfinder to see what you're seeing,
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Speaker 1: photographing the victims where they lay, photographing and diagramming and
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Speaker 1: all of the evidence that we have to do. It's
20:51
Speaker 1: actually processing it and actually having the wherewithal to put
20:55
Speaker 1: that aside to do your job, and you know, for
20:59
Speaker 1: the parents, for the victims, for the students. For the
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Speaker 1: people who survived this is not going to just go away.
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Speaker 1: They're going to carry this for the rest of their lives,
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Speaker 1: like you do, Nancy with your cases, like I do
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Speaker 1: with mine, like I'm sure the doctor does with kids.
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Speaker 1: This is systemic. This was a failure on so many
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Speaker 1: different levels, and that just adds to the frustration and
21:20
Speaker 1: the anger and actually the rage that comes along with
21:23
Speaker 1: something like this. Yeah, Karen Smith, we're finding out more
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Speaker 1: and more and more about what the parents should have known.
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Speaker 1: If they didn't know, they should have known. You know,
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Speaker 1: let me ask you this, doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen joining
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Speaker 1: us out of Michigan. Doctor Jenson, I have no idea
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Speaker 1: how many autopsies you've done, how many dead bodies you've seen.
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Speaker 1: How does it affect you or does it affect you
21:53
Speaker 1: differently when the victim is a child like in this case, well,
21:58
Speaker 1: you typically try to keep an objective of opinion and
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Speaker 1: your emotions under under check. Certainly, young infants and children
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Speaker 1: are especially tragic because they're so defenseless, end and dependent
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Speaker 1: upon others. And but you know it, really it doesn't
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Speaker 1: matter if the if the individuals you know thirty two,
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Speaker 1: twenty two or twelve. I mean, it's still a light
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Speaker 1: and each life carries the tragedy of loss to the
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Speaker 1: family and the loved ones. Right now, I'm very disturbed
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Speaker 1: about what could have been done to save these lives,
22:41
Speaker 1: and in my mind it all rests squarely on the
22:45
Speaker 1: shoulders of the parents, Ethan Cromley's parents who looked but
22:50
Speaker 1: didn't see. Also things that happened at the school. For instance,
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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eleven wdiv Madison, Tate,
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Speaker 1: Hannah and today Justin all dead after a fifteen year
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Speaker 1: old student at Oxford High went on a rampage yesterday
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Speaker 1: with seven others, including a teacher, wounded. Certainly you want
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Speaker 1: to stand all the charms against you, yes. Ethan Crumbly
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Speaker 1: was charged with twenty four counts, including terrorism and first
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Speaker 1: degree murder, in a crime the prosecutor says was no
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Speaker 1: spur of the moment decision Judge a preliminary reviewed the
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Speaker 1: defendant social media accounts, his cell phone, as well as
23:31
Speaker 1: other document document evidence recovered. Unseeing this defendant planned is shooting.
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Speaker 1: He deliberately brought the handgun that day with the intent
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Speaker 1: to murder as many students as he could. You know,
23:47
Speaker 1: I packed the twins backpacks every night for the next day,
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Speaker 1: I personally take them to the car. I know what's
23:55
Speaker 1: in the backpacks, I know what I've cleaned out of
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Speaker 1: the backpacks. How could you not know your son was
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Speaker 1: taking a weapon to school? And so much more to
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Speaker 1: I could listen to our cut fifteen our friends at
24:06
Speaker 1: Inside Edition. The couple allegedly fled following the announcement of
24:10
Speaker 1: the charges by prosecutor Karen McDonald, who revealed the gun
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Speaker 1: used in the shooting was bought for fifteen year old
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Speaker 1: Ethan Crumbly as an early Christmas gift. One of Jennifer
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Speaker 1: Crumbly's social media posts on about eleven, twenty seven twenty
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Speaker 1: one read quote mom and Sunday testing out his new
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Speaker 1: Christmas present end quote. She said the parents recalled to
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Speaker 1: the school after a teacher found a chilling note on
24:36
Speaker 1: Crumbley's desk. It showed a drawing of a gun with
24:40
Speaker 1: the words the thoughts won't stop help me, blood everywhere,
24:44
Speaker 1: my life is useless, and the world is dead. The
24:47
Speaker 1: notion that a parent could read those words and also
24:52
Speaker 1: know that their son had access to a deadly weapon
24:56
Speaker 1: that they gave him is unconscionable in I think it's criminal.
25:02
Speaker 1: It is criminal, but not just that hold on. The
25:07
Speaker 1: school has a part in this too. Take a listen
25:09
Speaker 1: to our cut thirty one from GMA. While their Sun
25:13
Speaker 1: faces charges including murder and terrorism and is expected to
25:17
Speaker 1: plead guilty by reason of insanity, Jennifer and James Crumley
25:21
Speaker 1: face four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors using records of
25:26
Speaker 1: text messages and eyewitness testimony to try to prove that
25:29
Speaker 1: their negligence contributed to tragedy. The parents of Ethan Crumley
25:34
Speaker 1: appearing in a Michigan court Tuesday after that Oxford High
25:38
Speaker 1: school shooting that killed four students last November. Prosecutors say
25:42
Speaker 1: Jennifer and James Crumley gave their son a firearm and
25:45
Speaker 1: repeatedly ignored warning signs. Investigators showing text messages Jennifer Crumley
25:50
Speaker 1: sent the day before the shooting when Ethan got in
25:53
Speaker 1: trouble for looking up bullets on his phone during class.
25:56
Speaker 1: Jennifer texting with her fifteen year old son, did you
25:59
Speaker 1: Ali and to you? Jessica Dupnak, reporter Fox to Detroit,
26:12
Speaker 1: how did the school miss him? Thumbing through his phone
26:16
Speaker 1: looking at bullets. But let's just start with the parents.
26:19
Speaker 1: The two that are blowing wet kisses to each other
26:22
Speaker 1: in court in front of the victims families. What were
26:26
Speaker 1: the warning signs the parents chose to ignore? How much
26:30
Speaker 1: time do you have? I mean, it goes on and on.
26:33
Speaker 1: Starting in March, eight months before the shooting, Ethan was
26:36
Speaker 1: having for up three weeks hallucinations at his home of
26:40
Speaker 1: demons and ghosts inside of the house that were throwing
26:44
Speaker 1: dishes around, and he repeatedly tried to reach out to
26:46
Speaker 1: his mother as saying, something's wrong with me, something's going on.
26:50
Speaker 1: She was busy at a horse barn riding horses and
26:53
Speaker 1: completely ignored it. There was never any mental health healthcare
26:58
Speaker 1: given to this child. Then he started to mutilate animals,
27:02
Speaker 1: to which he brought a severed birdhead to school. Just
27:05
Speaker 1: a few days before the shooting. He was searching school
27:09
Speaker 1: shootings and weapons on his cell phone so much that
27:13
Speaker 1: he started to get pop up ads for psychological evaluations
27:18
Speaker 1: and mental health. He had notebooks, two notebooks. Every single
27:22
Speaker 1: page of those notebooks there was drawings of weapons and
27:26
Speaker 1: basically a manifesto. I mean, it goes on and on.
27:30
Speaker 1: And on, all under the crumblies roof just trying to
27:35
Speaker 1: take in everything. She is saying to doctor Jillian Peterson,
27:38
Speaker 1: forensics psychologist and author way in, I mean, I hardly
27:45
Speaker 1: know which question I should start with. I know it's
27:49
Speaker 1: the warning signs in this case. I mean, it's this
27:52
Speaker 1: laundry list that goes on and on. And when we
27:55
Speaker 1: studied these cases, we do see this that there's lots
27:57
Speaker 1: of warning signs and it's a failure of people kind
28:00
Speaker 1: of putting together the pieces and a lot of these cases,
28:03
Speaker 1: this case feels different because the pieces were all put together.
28:07
Speaker 1: The crumblies had all of the information. They knew all
28:11
Speaker 1: of these warning signs. They knew he was hearing voices,
28:14
Speaker 1: they knew he was struggling, and their response was to
28:17
Speaker 1: buy him a gun. And then they're called into the
28:19
Speaker 1: school and shown a picture where he literally writes the
28:22
Speaker 1: words help me, and their response was to walk away.
28:26
Speaker 1: I mean, in this case, it's so unbelievable. And we've
28:30
Speaker 1: also mentioned the school. The school here too had social
28:33
Speaker 1: media posts. They had a bird's head found in the
28:37
Speaker 1: bathroom that he had put there. They had bullets in
28:40
Speaker 1: the classroom, they had this drawing of a school shooting
28:44
Speaker 1: to the point where parents were pulling their kids from
28:46
Speaker 1: school because they were worried. So this school, I think
28:49
Speaker 1: there's going to be some real questions around that as well.
28:51
Speaker 1: I want you to hear this and then, Daryl Cohen,
28:54
Speaker 1: you tell me you're the defense attorney. The parents aren't
28:57
Speaker 1: partially responsible. Our cut thirty two. This is our friend
29:00
Speaker 1: will reave at GMA. The morning of the shooting, the
29:04
Speaker 1: Crumleys went to the school for a meeting with school
29:06
Speaker 1: officials prosecutors playing thee one called James Crumley made Just
29:11
Speaker 1: hours later, Jennifer's boss Andrew Smith, testifying that the morning
29:26
Speaker 1: of the shooting, Jennifer told him she needed to get
29:29
Speaker 1: Ethan counseling. Jennifer allegedly screaming in the office as news
29:33
Speaker 1: of the shooting broke, later texting Smith the gun is
29:36
Speaker 1: gone and so are the bullets, adding I need a lawyer.
29:39
Speaker 1: Ethan did it, and begging I need my job, Please
29:43
Speaker 1: don't judge me for what my son did. I was
29:45
Speaker 1: surprised she was worried about her job at that time.
29:47
Speaker 1: I thought she'd be more worried about what was going on,
29:49
Speaker 1: you know. Daryl Cohen I don't have a lot to
29:51
Speaker 1: compare it to, but I do know that when I
29:55
Speaker 1: got the news my fiance had been murdered, I didn't
29:58
Speaker 1: even think about my job job. I couldn't take him.
30:03
Speaker 1: Really what I was hearing. I still thought, for the
30:07
Speaker 1: longest time, if I could just get to him, I
30:09
Speaker 1: could fix it. And so my sole objection objective was
30:13
Speaker 1: to find out where he was so I could get
30:16
Speaker 1: to him, so I could fix everything my job. I mean, Nancy,
30:22
Speaker 1: you can't make this up. This is not even a
30:23
Speaker 1: Hollywood script. My job shouldn't even enter into the subconscious,
30:29
Speaker 1: much less the conscious, much less the vocal and the verbal.
30:33
Speaker 1: This is more unbelievable. Yes, I'm a defense lawyer, but
30:37
Speaker 1: yes I try to do the right thing. And yes,
30:39
Speaker 1: this is not the right thing with her or her husband.
30:42
Speaker 1: This is riding horses. Save my job. Heck with my son,
30:47
Speaker 1: He'll make it. Really, this is not anything at all
30:51
Speaker 1: that any of us want to hear, but it's what's happening.
30:54
Speaker 1: And as has been pointed out earlier, repercussions of this
30:58
Speaker 1: are not just the dead victims and the shot victims,
31:02
Speaker 1: but everybody in the entire United States and perhaps the world,
31:07
Speaker 1: because kids need to be able to go to school.
31:10
Speaker 1: They need to be able to understand in school is
31:13
Speaker 1: a quote safe place end quote. They need to know
31:17
Speaker 1: that it's okay. They should not be in fear that
31:20
Speaker 1: some crazed student will come and shoot and kill. It
31:24
Speaker 1: just can happen this way. And we've got to stop
31:40
Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace too. Jessica Doop Night joining
31:45
Speaker 1: us Fox to Detroit. Jessica, not only did they ignore
31:50
Speaker 1: all the signals, the red flags, the bombs going off
31:53
Speaker 1: in their home, they bought him a gun. What were
31:58
Speaker 1: they thinking? Why did he need a gun? Well, he
32:00
Speaker 1: was clearly obsessed with them, And I think that there
32:04
Speaker 1: was some guilt associated with this parenting that was going
32:07
Speaker 1: on that they realized and acknowledge through text message that
32:11
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with their child. They knew what
32:14
Speaker 1: was going on, and maybe they thought this would fix it,
32:17
Speaker 1: and it certainly did not fix anything. I'm wondering, I'm
32:22
Speaker 1: curious about this huge treasure trope social media and digital
32:27
Speaker 1: evidence that the state refers to. What are they talking about, Jessica?
32:32
Speaker 1: What social media? What digital evidence? Well as far as
32:35
Speaker 1: Ethan Crumbley's you know, his social media breadcrumbs if you will.
32:40
Speaker 1: I mean, he was blatantly posting about guns, about demons,
32:44
Speaker 1: about very dark, dark things on social media, to which
32:48
Speaker 1: his parents followed his account and saw all of that.
32:52
Speaker 1: And then in terms of other digital evidence, they were
32:54
Speaker 1: then relaying concerns to friends the Jennifer and James that
32:59
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with their son. They just continue
33:02
Speaker 1: to do nothing, and as we've said before, they bought
33:05
Speaker 1: him a gun to maybe put a band aid on
33:07
Speaker 1: the problem, you know, Jessica to Matt joining me Fox
33:11
Speaker 1: to Detroit. There was a very very lengthy document including
33:15
Speaker 1: evidence from before and after the shooting, like text messages
33:20
Speaker 1: between the Crumley's after the shooting, crime scene photos close
33:25
Speaker 1: of the victims that I guess was the first time
33:30
Speaker 1: we were really seeing the evidence, photos inside the bathroom
33:34
Speaker 1: where one student was the murder chased down into the bathroom,
33:38
Speaker 1: Emails between school officials about the Crumleys odd behavior before
33:42
Speaker 1: the shooting. What odd behavior are they talking about in
33:48
Speaker 1: that document in terms of Jennifer and James odd behavior,
33:52
Speaker 1: either the parents or Crumbling himself. Well, I think in
33:57
Speaker 1: terms of Ethan, what we've talked about is just bizarre
34:02
Speaker 1: torturing of animals. All of this social media post. There
34:05
Speaker 1: was some tens of thousands of text messages between Ethan
34:09
Speaker 1: and a friend of his talking about school shootings, glorifying
34:13
Speaker 1: school shootings, all of that, and then it shows kind
34:17
Speaker 1: of juxtaposed with all of that going on, You've got
34:19
Speaker 1: the mom at the horse barn, dad's delivering uber eats,
34:23
Speaker 1: and apparently there were extramarital affairs going on. So you're
34:26
Speaker 1: just painting this picture through digital evidence of parents that
34:30
Speaker 1: were completely removed from what was going on inside their
34:34
Speaker 1: own home. It's not the first time parents have been
34:37
Speaker 1: accused of knowing what their child was doing that child
34:42
Speaker 1: later erupting into murder. I'm sure no one will ever
34:49
Speaker 1: forget the Columbine massacre. Listen. One of the pages that
34:53
Speaker 1: had a recipe for a pipe bomb concluded, now, our
34:56
Speaker 1: only problem is to find the place that will be
34:59
Speaker 1: ground z year old complaint. Today, a sheriff spokesman would
35:02
Speaker 1: not discuss any of this, that all of that is
35:05
Speaker 1: part of the ongoing investigation and they do not want
35:07
Speaker 1: to make any comments about that right now. But some
35:11
Speaker 1: of the information given to the sheriff made its way
35:13
Speaker 1: to Neil Gardner, a deputy who was assigned to the
35:15
Speaker 1: high school. Had you been told about that? I mean,
35:18
Speaker 1: did you have any kind of warning about him a
35:21
Speaker 1: little bit? Yeah, that he might be capable of making
35:25
Speaker 1: some bombs. In the past year, Brooks Brown and Eric
35:29
Speaker 1: Harris settled their differences before the shooting. Harris warned Brooks
35:33
Speaker 1: to go home. Brooks, I like, you get out of
35:36
Speaker 1: here at go home now. Brooks Brown was spared, but
35:40
Speaker 1: now his parents are wondering if their complaints to the
35:43
Speaker 1: sheriff a year ago had been handled differently, could many
35:46
Speaker 1: more have been saved? So you know, to everyone on
35:50
Speaker 1: the panel, this is not the first time parents have
35:53
Speaker 1: chosen to look the other way. Why is that, doctor Peterson?
35:57
Speaker 1: I think a lot of parents can imagine that their
36:01
Speaker 1: kid would actually do something like this. It's your kid.
36:06
Speaker 1: You tend to think there's no way Mike could actually
36:09
Speaker 1: do something this monstrous, this unbelievable. I think we also
36:13
Speaker 1: see that kids who do this are raised in households
36:17
Speaker 1: that are pretty dysfunctional, that have lots of histories of
36:21
Speaker 1: sort of abuse and neglects and sort of bad family
36:25
Speaker 1: dynamics that a lot of times these kids are really
36:27
Speaker 1: being ignored, like we saw in this case, even though
36:29
Speaker 1: they are doing all these things, showing off these signs
36:33
Speaker 1: in many ways almost crying out for help. They look
36:36
Speaker 1: how messed up I am? I need something, and the
36:39
Speaker 1: parents are just ignoring it. We are also learning that
36:43
Speaker 1: the prosecutor is debunking social media posts that Ethan Cromley
36:48
Speaker 1: is incompetent to stand trial, calling it one hundred percent fault. Now.
36:56
Speaker 1: I understand that a lot of people are on social
36:58
Speaker 1: media giving their opinion, which mean nothing of course in court,
37:02
Speaker 1: but they are saying that he is in no way incompetent. Jessica,
37:07
Speaker 1: do mat why. I think there's just there's too much
37:10
Speaker 1: of a trail of a paper trail of and it
37:13
Speaker 1: was ramping up. You know, it started with searching school
37:16
Speaker 1: shootings to the point where it became obsessive. I mean,
37:19
Speaker 1: he's drawing in notebooks. I heard that there was videos
37:22
Speaker 1: that he did kind of a tell all of what
37:25
Speaker 1: he was going to do. And then I think, really
37:27
Speaker 1: the headline here is that drawing in class where he
37:31
Speaker 1: basically drew pictures as a fifteen year old wood of
37:35
Speaker 1: what he was about to carry out two hours later.
37:38
Speaker 1: I mean, he knew what he wanted to do a
37:42
Speaker 1: treasure trove social media post. Crumley allegedly filmed himself talking
37:49
Speaker 1: about killing students the night before the shooting. A series
37:52
Speaker 1: of posts by him posted on Instagram just before the massacre.
37:57
Speaker 1: One of the captions years to say, I quote just
38:01
Speaker 1: got my new beauty today and it's of a nine
38:04
Speaker 1: millimeter semi automatic weapon. Another post says say you tomorrow,
38:09
Speaker 1: Oxford with a mention to death and the destroyer of worlds.
38:17
Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on. I don't know
38:21
Speaker 1: how a jury's going to take it all in. And
38:24
Speaker 1: the past days there has been a move to take
38:27
Speaker 1: Ethan Cromley out of adult holding and put him in
38:32
Speaker 1: juvenile and a juvenile facility. Jessica doopna, what's happening. Well,
38:37
Speaker 1: that's been really the conversation since he appeared in court.
38:41
Speaker 1: You know, I think that right now he's going to
38:43
Speaker 1: stay put. He's isolated in an area kind of where
38:46
Speaker 1: a medical treatment is given in the adult jail. He's
38:50
Speaker 1: twenty four hour watch by a deputy, you know, very secluded.
38:55
Speaker 1: But his attorneys believe that he needs to go really
38:58
Speaker 1: across the street, you know, proximity to juvenile but I
39:01
Speaker 1: just don't see it happening. I think that it would
39:04
Speaker 1: just upset too many people, And with this being a
39:06
Speaker 1: case that's so media driven, I just don't see it happening.
39:10
Speaker 1: What about it, Darryll Cohen, I completely agree. He needs
39:13
Speaker 1: to stay where he is. The heck with his age,
39:16
Speaker 1: it's the focus on the crime that he committed. And also,
39:22
Speaker 1: pardon me, the perception this is all about optics as well.
39:26
Speaker 1: He has to stay where he is before he's tried
39:29
Speaker 1: or before he enters a plea. He should not move.
39:32
Speaker 1: Just so upsetting that all of these warning signs were
39:36
Speaker 1: a miss. Take a listen to our cut thirty four.
39:39
Speaker 1: This is at least preston CBS Ethan Crumbly remained quiet
39:43
Speaker 1: as his attorney entered a not guilty plea on twenty
39:46
Speaker 1: four counts, including murder and terrorism charges. The Michigan team
39:52
Speaker 1: allegedly opened fire in a hallway at Oxford High School,
39:56
Speaker 1: killing four and wounding seven with a gun that is
40:00
Speaker 1: parents bought him as an early Christmas present. A civil
40:03
Speaker 1: lawsuit against the Oxford Community School District accuses administrators of
40:08
Speaker 1: putting students in danger by allegedly downplaying Grumbley's actions before
40:12
Speaker 1: the shooting, when he posted countdowns and threats of bodily harm.
40:17
Speaker 1: At one point, the complaint claims that the boy left
40:20
Speaker 1: a severed birdhead in a mason jar containing a yellow
40:23
Speaker 1: liquid in the boy's bathroom. The school then emailed students
40:27
Speaker 1: and parents that there has been no threat to our
40:30
Speaker 1: building nor our students. To Karen Smith, forensic expert, that
40:35
Speaker 1: is a classic sign that that youth will turn into
40:41
Speaker 1: a killer. The mutilation of animals, absolutely, that's one of
40:45
Speaker 1: the trifecta. You have mutilation of animals, you have bedwedding,
40:49
Speaker 1: and you have fire starting. Those are the three things
40:52
Speaker 1: that you look for. And when I heard about this
40:54
Speaker 1: birdhead found in the bathroom, and then I heard that
40:57
Speaker 1: the police couldn't link it to a specific person. But
41:00
Speaker 1: then I saw that there was video surveillance in the
41:03
Speaker 1: moments before and after the shooting, and I thought, well,
41:05
Speaker 1: where's the video surveillance of the bathroom with this birdhead in? It?
41:09
Speaker 1: Was that reviewed where fingerprints pulled from the mason jar
41:12
Speaker 1: that it was in. You know, students may have touched
41:15
Speaker 1: it and left their fingerprints behind, but you can still
41:17
Speaker 1: process that and look for forensic evidence to link it
41:20
Speaker 1: to the person who may have left it there. So
41:22
Speaker 1: there were a lot of balls that were dropped that
41:24
Speaker 1: made me question it. But yes, you're absolutely right leaving
41:28
Speaker 1: a severed birdhead in a yellow liquid which I will
41:32
Speaker 1: assume to be urine in a mason jar in a
41:35
Speaker 1: boy's bathroom and then have that reported to school officials
41:38
Speaker 1: and no action taken to find out who left it there.
41:42
Speaker 1: To listen to the students who were saying it was
41:45
Speaker 1: potentially Ethan that did this, that is a failure that
41:50
Speaker 1: just escaped my mind. To doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, joining
41:55
Speaker 1: us Prime, University of Michigan, author of a death Investigation
42:00
Speaker 1: in America, Coroners, Medical Examiners, and the Pursuit of Medical Certainty,
42:05
Speaker 1: The title of your book leads me to my next question.
42:10
Speaker 1: When you I mean I will never forget the first
42:12
Speaker 1: time I investigated and prosecuted a mass shooting. I still
42:17
Speaker 1: think about it. And one of the crime scene photos,
42:21
Speaker 1: Doctor Jensen, there was literally blood running down the gutter,
42:26
Speaker 1: literally blood running down the gutter. There was so much
42:28
Speaker 1: blood at the medical examiner's office. How is a mass
42:34
Speaker 1: shooting processed when you have so many victims? How do
42:39
Speaker 1: you call infra backup. I mean, what do you do
42:42
Speaker 1: well on the multiple fatality incidents. You basically, I have
42:47
Speaker 1: to rely on your disaster programs and your previous training
42:53
Speaker 1: because you just can't plan ahead enough for these kind
42:57
Speaker 1: of episodes. And you know, our experience with the Jeffrey
43:01
Speaker 1: Dahmer case was very similar to something like this, with
43:07
Speaker 1: all the evidence and clues ahead of time, and that
43:13
Speaker 1: things were ignored and we treated that as a mini
43:19
Speaker 1: disaster also, as you should have when you are performing
43:24
Speaker 1: the autopsis, doctor Jensen, I would assume that you would
43:30
Speaker 1: rather look at the body as quickly as possible after
43:34
Speaker 1: the death. What effect does chilling the body and having
43:39
Speaker 1: the body chilled for a period of time, hours or
43:42
Speaker 1: even a day for you to accurately methodically take the
43:47
Speaker 1: time you need for each autopsy. Well, Nancy, you know
43:52
Speaker 1: my practice has always been that the autopsy starts at
43:55
Speaker 1: the scene, and that it's essential that the medical examiner
43:59
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists is available to view the decedents at the
44:06
Speaker 1: scene and to gather their own information and objective findings
44:15
Speaker 1: as soon as possible in order to make those determinations
44:19
Speaker 1: of the time of death, pain and suffering, location of
44:25
Speaker 1: shooter and victim and other really essential observations that can
44:31
Speaker 1: only be done when the forensic pathologist is at the scene.
44:36
Speaker 1: I'm taking in everything you're saying, doctor, and let me
44:39
Speaker 1: go to now, Jessica Deep Nat Reporter Fox to Detroit. Jessica,
44:44
Speaker 1: what's happening next? I know the judge did not a
44:47
Speaker 1: request to move Ethan Cromley to a juvenile facility. What's next? So,
44:52
Speaker 1: in terms of Ethan's case, it's been bound over to
44:56
Speaker 1: the higher courts for now, and as far as his parents,
45:00
Speaker 1: James and Jennifer, there will be further testimony later this month.
45:05
Speaker 1: It'll be day two of testimony, and that's really where
45:08
Speaker 1: we got a lot of the details of that digital
45:10
Speaker 1: evidence you spoke of. And then the judge will ultimately
45:12
Speaker 1: determine if that their cases, their charges will be bound
45:16
Speaker 1: over to the higher courts. And simply put to you,
45:19
Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, a bind over hearing or a preliminary hearing
45:24
Speaker 1: is just to deterf a judge to determine. You know,
45:28
Speaker 1: I typically used to grand jury because I didn't want
45:32
Speaker 1: my evidence to be public. But a preliminary hearings, where
45:37
Speaker 1: the bare bones evidence of a case is presented to
45:40
Speaker 1: a judge, just to judge, and that judge decides whether
45:44
Speaker 1: there's enough evidence to go to a petit petit jury
45:49
Speaker 1: of twelve, and then we'll send it to the correct court.
45:53
Speaker 1: For instance, if it's a shop lifting of a ten dollars,
45:56
Speaker 1: it'll go to misdemeanor court. If it's a mass murder,
45:59
Speaker 1: it will go to your court. Is that your understanding
46:02
Speaker 1: of a preliminary hearing, absolutely, Nancy. I like to say,
46:05
Speaker 1: it's not really probable cause, which is what the law is.
46:08
Speaker 1: It's possible cause. Did it maybe perhaps happen, and then
46:12
Speaker 1: it moves on. In this instance, it definitely happened. And
46:17
Speaker 1: whether or not he is foul guilty by a jury,
46:19
Speaker 1: whether or not he enters a plea of guilty, whether
46:22
Speaker 1: there's an insanity portion of this doesn't matter until later.
46:26
Speaker 1: But this is merely enough to say, let's move it
46:29
Speaker 1: on to the next court so they can deal with
46:32
Speaker 1: that and hopefully justice will happen. You're right, it's not
46:35
Speaker 1: a probable cause standard for a prelimb it's whether and
46:40
Speaker 1: this is the black and white letter of the law.
46:42
Speaker 1: There is an issue of fact to be determined by
46:46
Speaker 1: a jury. Is there a question at all, and if so,
46:51
Speaker 1: it will be sent to a jury trial, or at
46:54
Speaker 1: least to a higher court. We wait as justice unfils,
46:59
Speaker 1: not for the school shooter, Ethan Crimley, but for those
47:03
Speaker 1: two parents. They keep blowing drippy, wet kisses to each
47:08
Speaker 1: other in court. Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,