Latest / C-Suite Perspectives / What Makes Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Work?

Transcript

What Makes Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Work? · C-Suite Perspectives

0:00
Welcome to C-Suite Perspectives, a signature series by The Conference Board.
0:05
I'm Allan Schweyer, principal researcher in the Human Capital
0:08
Center of The Conference Board and the guest host of this podcast series.
0:13
Today's episode examines what employees based in the US, Europe, and Asia
0:18
actually experience when it comes to diversity, equity & inclusion (DEI)
0:22
and where leadership perceptions diverge from frontline reality.
0:26
Drawing on new global data, we explore what's working, what isn't, and what
0:31
the C-Suite must do next to turn DEI from intention into measurable impact.
0:37
Overall, we had over 1,300 responses to our survey.
0:41
Representing the four major economies of Europe-- including the UK, Germany,
0:46
France, and Italy-- as well as responses from across the US and Asia, including
0:52
mainland China, India, and Singapore.
0:55
Joining me today are Marion Devine, principal researcher,
0:59
Human Capital Center, Europe, and Matthew Maloof, researcher, Human
1:03
Capital Center, here in the US.
1:06
Welcome Matt and Marion.
1:08
Thanks, Allan.
1:09
Thanks, Allan.
1:10
I'm going to start with you, Matt, but certainly Marion, chime in as well.
1:15
Matt, how do employee attitudes toward DEI differ across major global regions?
1:22
It's important to recognize that DEI support was high across all three
1:28
regions but the really important part was that the differences were about
1:31
whether DEI is well calibrated and producing a real business impact.
1:37
When looking at the percentage of workers in those regions who said that
1:40
they want to work in a place with broad diversity-- that means a mix of genders,
1:44
a mix of thinking styles, a mix of ages, and a mix of race and so on-- we
1:49
found that on average US responded, 77% said, yes, they do want to work there
1:54
and it's important to their workspace; in Asia, 70%; and in Europe, 67%.
1:59
Overall, support for DEI was high.
2:02
But then, and we'll touch on this as we get through the conversation, there
2:06
were tidbits where we found a little bit of nuance where differences arose.
2:10
For example, when asking was there too much effort dedicated to DEI or
2:15
too little effort dedicated to DEI, we found that the US was a little
2:19
more polarized, while Europe had a little bit more skepticism and Asia
2:25
had the least dissatisfaction overall, meaning, they were the most for DEI.
2:29
We can see the three regions, broad support overall but
2:33
differences in the nuance.
2:36
Great.
2:37
Matt, it sounds like we're doing pretty well with DEI then globally.
2:40
You even mentioned investment amounts.
2:42
So Marion, I'm wondering, does this mean we're investing the right amount in DEI
2:46
and does this perception vary by region?
2:50
Yeah, Allan.
2:51
Overall, as Matt says, across most regions employees say their organization
2:55
is investing about the right amount.
2:58
And there are a few differences.
3:00
For example, the US is perhaps a little bit more critical: about 31% in the
3:04
US say companies invest too much and that's compared to only 12% in Europe.
3:10
But you have to balance it with other things.
3:12
Americans are more likely to say that DEI improves collaboration and belonging.
3:16
It is nuanced across Europe: there are some differences.
3:20
We saw that in France, 24% say that companies devote too little to DEI.
3:25
They're a little bit more critical and that's the strongest sort of
3:28
more-action-is-needed signal in Europe.
3:31
As Matt said in Asia there is generally more positivity, more enthusiasm.
3:37
I think that really when you stand back from it, the issue isn't simply
3:41
whether companies are investing enough.
3:43
It's whether the investment really feels calibrated and relevant.
3:48
It's about not thinking in terms of volume, more programs, more campaigns.
3:53
But really what is working, what resonates locally, where might there be
3:58
pockets of skepticism or even fatigue?
4:01
It's not about the investment as such.
4:03
It's about really tailored and relevant and targeted interventions.
4:08
Yeah.
4:08
What I think you're getting at too, Marion, is the big question.
4:10
I mean, it's not so much whether we're investing maybe too little,
4:14
the right amount, or too much.
4:16
Matt, I'm going to ask you this, do these investments translate into measurable
4:20
business and workforce outcomes?
4:22
I think the clear answer is that they do, and with this, there's two angles.
4:25
We asked respondents to tell us if the DEI practices that the organizations
4:31
deploy-- things like ERGs, leaders who communicate the importance of DEI-- had a
4:36
positive effect on their work experience.
4:39
We found that across the three regions, they said that they did.
4:41
And then when we asked them if the DEI practices had a positive
4:45
impact on things like collaboration, innovation, engagement, retention.
4:49
There's two more that I'm not recalling right now.
4:52
But we found that they also said that those had a positive
4:55
impact on their experience.
4:58
Now, the nuance here is that they weren't super large percentages, right?
5:01
In the US it was 58%.
5:02
In Europe it was 51%, and Asia it was 63%.
5:06
And improving your collaboration or your engagement for 58% of the team
5:11
is still a worthwhile investment and still produces positive results.
5:15
It's just making sure, how do we transition or modify the practices
5:19
that we're using to meet the needs of the other 42%, for example, in the US.
5:24
There is definitely a clear reason to use these strategies and deploy them.
5:28
It's just making sure we're doing it in a way that helps more than just
5:32
slightly over half of our population.
5:35
And something i thought was interesting was that if you just look at the
5:38
data, it looks like retention is one of the lowest levers as it were.
5:42
But actually all these other ones that people talk about-- engagement,
5:45
collaboration, productivity at work-- those are drivers of retention.
5:50
So even if people don't consciously say, oh, DEI, it helped, is a
5:54
factor in keeping me at a company.
5:56
Actually all the effects of DEI do have an impact on people's working experience
6:02
and therefore ultimately retention.
6:05
That's a great point, Marion.
6:07
Sometimes we can't directly attribute good business outcomes to a program
6:13
under the DEI umbrella but you can correlate it, as you say, to
6:18
things like improving retention, which does impact the bottom line.
6:22
I should mention too I was a co-author of the report.
6:24
One of the things that struck me was the big differences between
6:28
the perceptions of executives, managers, and frontline employees.
6:32
Marion, where did you see this?
6:34
What were some of the biggest gaps and surprises there between
6:37
executives,managers, and workers?
6:38
Yeah, it's really interesting looking at differences in perception.
6:41
And it is perception but of course perception really counts.
6:45
Across almost all these measures, senior leaders are more positive.
6:49
They are more likely to say that the organization is investing
6:51
meaningfully, that the programs are effective and certainly that
6:55
DEI improves business outcomes.
6:58
In a way it's not surprising because they perhaps see the strategy, they see
7:03
the investment, they perhaps have that overview that employees don't have.
7:08
When it comes to workers, they are more cautious.
7:12
They're not quite so convinced and managers are somewhere in the middle.
7:16
The sort of moral of the story really is that, first of all, it's critical
7:20
that managers are in a way the bridge between the workers and the executives.
7:24
If they are equipped and aligned, they can translate some of that strategy,
7:28
some of those initiatives into the daily practice, the daily experience at work.
7:33
And actually, I think it's encouraging that in Europe, 74% say that their
7:38
manager makes them feel included and respected, and 79% in the US say that too.
7:44
Obviously managers are doing quite a good job.
7:46
So really it's more about trying to get a little bit more alignment between those
7:50
three cohorts and definitely gathering and acting on employee sentiment.
7:56
There's a bit of work to be done there if employees are a little
7:59
bit more cautious about impact.
8:02
You mentioned the role of managers, Marion.
8:04
That struck me too as just how big the difference was in a worker perceptions
8:11
of DEI if their managers were behind DEI.
8:15
Matt, if you can explain that a little more, the role that managers play in
8:19
driving those perceptions amongst workers and driving, to some degree, whether
8:25
DEI efforts are even effective at all.
8:28
Yeah, absolutely.
8:29
Marion started and hit the nail on the head and saying that
8:32
managers are that middle lever.
8:33
If I was a C-Suite executive reading this piece, I would take away that this is
8:36
the lever I want to strategize around.
8:38
It's because we found that at minimum, across the regions, employees
8:42
who said that their managers made them feel included and respected
8:46
said they were three times more likely, at minimum, to perceive a
8:49
positive impact from DEI strategies.
8:52
Just for an example, looking around fairness and inclusion policies,
8:56
if an employee said that they felt included by their manager, in the US
9:01
65% said they had a positive impact.
9:03
In Europe, it was 66% and in Asia it was 78%.
9:06
But if they said that their manager didn't make them feel included, it was 20% in
9:10
the US, 24% in Europe, and 15% in Asia.
9:13
That's a huge jump, at the low a 40 point swing and then at
9:16
the highest 60 point swing.
9:18
If I wanted to strategize around making my DEI practices provide the best
9:24
return on investment (ROI), I would dedicate the most time in making sure
9:27
my managers are prepared to have those conversations, support their teams, and
9:32
make them feel included and respected.
9:34
It's important to note that this puts sort of large burden, I
9:37
want to say, on managers, but an organizational lift, right?
9:41
Even if the managers are doing a lot of the work.
9:43
We still found with practices like executives who communicate
9:46
the importance of DEI, that they still need to be participating.
9:49
And so this is definitely an important lever and you should pay special attention
9:53
to it but you can't think that it's the only thing that I need to focus on.
9:57
Just before we take a break here though, I want to zero in on
10:00
something you both mentioned.
10:02
For our audience here, it seems to me it's not so much that managers themselves have
10:08
a very high perception of DEI like the senior leaders seem to have in our survey.
10:14
What it boils down to more is that managers make the effort to make their
10:19
teams feel included and then that is going to drive more trust and buy-in for
10:24
DEI initiatives amongst the workforce.
10:26
Would you say that's right, or either one of you comment on that?
10:31
If we think of it from like a level perspective, being an individual
10:34
contributor, you're hearing these DEI practices and messages from up
10:38
top but that's not the person you're necessarily interacting with, the day
10:41
to day and then in the moment to moment.
10:43
And so managers have a key, I don't want to say power, but like a moment
10:48
of time in which they can make those policies feel better or not as impactful.
10:55
It's like you said, it's not that they are specifically more positive around it.
10:58
They just have a unique role to play in the organizational effort.
11:04
It probably as well, there's something about the nature of trust here
11:07
because when you think about the components of trust, having a clear
11:11
policy, a commitment, all those organizational factors is very important.
11:14
But we trust people as well.
11:17
We trust things when we see them in action, and that's where
11:20
the manager comes into play.
11:22
Great.
11:23
Thank you both.
11:23
We're going to take a short break.
11:25
I'm going to be right back with more of my conversation with
11:28
Marion Devine and Matthew Maloof.
11:37
Welcome back to C-Suite Perspectives.
11:39
I'm your host, Allan Schweyer, principal researcher in the Human
11:42
Capital Center of The Conference Board.
11:45
I'm joined by Marion Devine, principal researcher, human
11:47
capital Europe, and Matthew Maloof, researcher, human capital, US.
11:53
So Matt, let's talk about DEI mechanisms and which matter most to employees.
11:59
Is it the quality of their leadership?
12:01
Is it training?
12:02
Is it having employee resource groups (ERGs) in place or good policies?
12:06
What did the survey results tell us?
12:09
Overall, we found that at the top of sort of those practices and strategies,
12:13
we found three that stood out.
12:14
It was fairness and inclusion policies.
12:17
Two was dedicated leaders who can communicate the importance of DEI.
12:20
And then the third was ERGs.
12:22
What I want to zero in on is that these mechanisms and strategies are visible and
12:26
they're tied to the day-to-day experience.
12:29
But, and this is important, building off of what we were just talking
12:33
about before the break, was that in part, their effectiveness is
12:36
also highly contingent on how the organization strategizes around them.
12:39
Like I said before, if the manager is involved and making their workers
12:44
feel included and respected, this sort of strategy will be more effective.
12:49
What we found was that, for example, with dedicated DEI leader and the
12:54
perceived positive impact it had, in the US we had 65% of workers;
12:57
in Europe, 61%; and in Asia, 74%.
13:00
And then, for example, ERGs in the US, 62%; in Europe, 56%; and in Asia, 71%.
13:08
What this tells us is that one, employees and workers want to see
13:12
policies that promote fairness through either pay equity or complaint
13:15
resolution or inclusion expectations.
13:17
Two, they want visible leadership.
13:20
They want their sort of leadership to communicate this importance and talk
13:24
about DEI rather than shy away from it.
13:26
And then ERGs, is the idea that they would have a group that they can
13:29
communicate to and feel, included and being able to have conversation with.
13:35
But like we said before, those differences do appear in the level and how much
13:39
effort is dedicated to the strategy.
13:43
Interesting.
13:44
So leaders who talk about DEI, ERGs where they can talk about
13:49
DEI and, from the balance of what you said, seeing it happen.
13:55
Not just hearing about it.
13:57
We always talk about how it's different between age groups.
14:01
Younger people might have perceived DEI differently than,
14:04
say, people of my generation, who we might call baby boomers.
14:08
Marion, maybe this differs between regions.
14:12
But how did generational differences affect the perceptions
14:16
of DEI value and effort?
14:17
I certainly was surprised in the way that generational differences didn't
14:21
factor that largely in our results.
14:25
It's not a divide as such.
14:28
There were some regional differences.
14:29
In the US generational views are a bit more spread out, so older
14:34
employees are a bit more likely to say there's too much focus.
14:37
Younger employees, there's more of them saying that there's not enough focus.
14:41
In Europe attitudes were much more aligned across age groups and I think,
14:45
in general, in Europe we didn't see any real polarization, whereas we did
14:50
perhaps in some of the other regions.
14:52
In Asia younger employees are often very aware of DEI initiatives and they
14:57
tend to report a strong positive impact but they can also be critical as well.
15:01
So the generational issue is less important than perhaps
15:04
you might have expected.
15:06
Probably the key takeaway for leaders is just don't make assumptions.
15:11
Don't stereotype generations.
15:13
Just treat each generation with respect and really it's possibly
15:18
about different career stages than generations that really matter.
15:23
Really interesting.
15:23
Now again, I coauthored the research, so I'm not surprised right now, but
15:27
I was surprised, as were you, when we analyzed the results and saw
15:30
that there wasn't a big difference.
15:32
I know it was a little more pronounced in the US.
15:34
Matt, did you have any comment on that before we move on?
15:38
No.
15:39
Basically, it's similar thing that I predicted that there was
15:41
going to be larger differences and was surprised to not see them.
15:46
We also looked at whether a person worked in an office setting, whether they worked
15:50
in a manufacturing or industrial setting.
15:53
Frontline workers versus I guess non frontline workers.
15:56
Did we see any differences there or in terms of perceptions?
16:01
So same here.
16:02
When we first started the work the hypothesis that I was operating
16:06
under was that there were going to be these large differences.
16:09
But what we found, particularly in the US and Europe, is that it was
16:12
relatively consistent over the worker types, over employees who say they work
16:16
in office settings and employees who say they work in industry settings.
16:19
For example with the US, the percent of employees who said that their organization
16:23
was dedicating the right amount of effort to DEI in the office, 49% said yes.
16:28
For industry and frontline workers, 45% said yes.
16:30
And then in Europe, 52% in the office and 56% in industry and frontline.
16:35
Those are really small percentage differences.
16:38
The big difference was in Asia, where we had in the office 47% saying that
16:44
their organization was dedicating the right amount of effort and then 67%
16:48
of industry and frontline workers.
16:50
That's a much wider sort of 20-point gap.
16:54
What that actually means, what we're looking at it is nearly half of the office
16:58
employees in Asia believe that their organizations were doing too much, right?
17:03
But only 18% of the frontline and office frontline and
17:06
industry workers felt that way.
17:08
And so there is this perception gap that was occurring in the region.
17:14
So there is a perception gap but as Marion and you both
17:17
pointed out, it's not profound.
17:18
A little bit more, when we look at it granularly in Asia somewhat.
17:23
But I think it's fair to say that most of our respondents do appreciate
17:28
efforts at DEI, certainly appreciate diversity in the workforce.
17:33
We didn't run this survey globally last year.
17:35
We ran it only in the US and there was a significant dip overall in what we
17:41
might term workers' appreciation for DEI.
17:46
It was higher last year than it was this year and it was higher
17:51
in 2024 than it was in 2025.
17:53
So let's address the elephant in the room.
17:56
There's been a lot of pushback.
17:59
There's been a lot of political pressure, at least in the US and to
18:03
some degree even in Europe, on DEI in general, of DEI programs that work.
18:07
So we did ask our respondents to say how comfortable they
18:12
were discussing DEI at work.
18:16
I want to ask that question and start with you, Marion, but even if you want
18:19
to expand that to talk about whether you see maybe some impact of all this
18:25
political pressure happening or reflected in our survey results this year.
18:30
Marion, why don't you start and then Matt.
18:32
Yeah, this was a question that we were all very interested in.
18:36
We have been seeing companies in Europe particularly struggling
18:41
with how to respond to some of the developments that are going on in
18:45
the US and concern about how they are communicating their DEI efforts.
18:52
But we found actually that when looking at what do the employees
18:55
think, surprisingly in the US, the size of portion said that they're
18:59
comfortable discussing DEI at work.
19:02
In Europe, it's a bit lower, but it's not necessarily hostile.
19:05
I think you might just say in Europe it's perhaps a bit more restrained.
19:09
And in Asia, many employees describe themselves as somewhat more comfortable
19:15
rather than extremely comfortable.
19:17
Again, it wasn't quite what we expected.
19:19
It's a very interesting topic in itself, which we could talk
19:22
about for hours because of course we've got cultural attitudes here.
19:26
We've got the culture of the organization to factor in as well.
19:30
So I think there are nuances and it's a conversation that's well worth having.
19:35
But it's important to remember that silence doesn't
19:36
automatically mean opposition.
19:39
Silence needs to be looked at.
19:40
I think it can be uncertainty or cultural norms or concern
19:44
about saying the wrong thing.
19:46
I think the risk isn't open disagreement.
19:48
You can do something with open disagreement.
19:50
There's something to respond to.
19:52
And in fact, our DEI leaders in Europe have been talking about engaging with
19:56
resistance and opposition and actually seeing that as a positive thing.
20:01
The real risk is quiet disengagement.
20:03
That can be the real barrier to building an inclusive workplace.
20:06
When people are just disengaged, they're quiet, they're not talking about it.
20:11
Again, the takeaway for leaders is it's not about forcing conversation.
20:15
It's really about understanding the culture of your own organization
20:20
and at the workplace level.
20:21
And also just creating that psychological safety that people
20:25
do feel that they can talk.
20:27
And really it's also about making sure that inclusion feels practical.
20:32
It's not something abstract or ideological.
20:35
People can talk about it in very everyday behaviors and situations.
20:40
Thanks, Marion.
20:41
Matt, your thoughts on that.
20:44
Definitely agree with everything Marion said but wanting to add on that.
20:47
Again, when we looked here specifically at how managers who support their
20:52
workers and make them feel included and respected played a role on how comfortable
20:56
they were talking about DEI, we found that managers who do that lead their
21:01
workers to feeling more comfortable.
21:03
It's important to recognize that those conversations could be happening in
21:07
a variety of places and building that trust, that component that Marion
21:11
talked a little bit about earlier, is super integral for making workers feel
21:15
comfortable in having those conversations.
21:18
Yeah.
21:19
Thank you both for that.
21:20
I liked the idea that if they weren't talking this would be
21:24
something to be very concerned about.
21:26
You want to get them talking and, as you both said, the manager has a big role
21:30
to play in creating that psychological safety and environment for people to
21:35
feel free about speaking about DEI, despite the pressures and maybe managers
21:40
should start those conversations.
21:42
My last question to both of you is what is the main takeaway from
21:48
this research for the C-Suite?
21:50
What strategic shifts should senior leaders make to improve DEI credibility
21:55
and the return on investment?
21:58
Marion, do you want to start?
22:00
Yes, Allan.
22:01
Again, where there's a lot of scrutiny, perhaps some controversy, I think one
22:04
of the big messages is employees broadly support these DEI initiatives, but what
22:11
they're less convinced about is impact.
22:13
Therefore, something that's important for leadership is to really think
22:17
about how do they prove the value and the impact of their DEI.
22:22
It's about less noise but more evidence and stronger everyday leadership.
22:27
When it comes to measuring impact, it's really looking at the things that
22:30
matter about belonging, trust, are people seeing fairness in advancement.
22:35
So measuring what really changes.
22:38
The second takeaway is really focus on the things that have high impact.
22:43
Cut the low impact initiatives, do fewer things.
22:46
Have the confidence to do fewer things but do them well.
22:49
And then third, and I think most important, invest in
22:51
managers across all regions.
22:53
As Matt's saying, when employees feel respected, included by their managers,
22:57
the perception of DEI shifts dramatically.
23:00
So manager behavior is really important to look at.
23:04
Then I suppose finally, Matt, I hope I'm not taking everything
23:06
here, it's to localize.
23:08
What resonates in Europe may differ from the US or Asia.
23:12
Think global in your strategy, your targets, your vision.
23:15
But when it comes to the implementation, definitely think local.
23:20
Thanks.
23:21
Matt?
23:22
I definitely agree with those four.
23:23
And then one that sort of stood out to me as I think is an
23:25
important takeaway is that there's an opportunity cost to silence.
23:30
And what do I mean by that?
23:31
We found that workers want to have these conversations and they want
23:35
leaders who are talking about these sort of strategies and practices,
23:40
and bringing that transparency to the front of the organization.
23:44
It's important to remember that you may not have it perfect right now,
23:48
but to build it out better and to get closer to being the best strategies
23:53
and practices can be, you need to have those conversations and talk
23:56
about them with your workforce.
23:58
And so a key takeaway is don't shy away from the conversations.
24:03
Yeah.
24:04
Thank you both very much.
24:05
And I would just maybe wrap it up by saying-- I don't want to oversimplify
24:08
it but just listening to what you both said just now-- make people feel
24:13
included, respected, and make them feel like they belong could go a long
24:20
way toward making DEI, if we even want to call it that, strategies work.
24:26
That could be the single thing, and not that that's easy, but the thing
24:29
that leaders can do to make the biggest difference from what I'm hearing.
24:33
Thank you both.
24:34
I thank you for joining us today and it's as always great to be with you both.
24:40
Absolutely.
24:41
It was a pleasure.
24:42
Thank you.
24:42
And thanks to all of you for listening to C-Suite Perspectives.
24:46
I'm Alan Schweyer, and the series has been brought to you by The Conference Board.