Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Gorgeous young mom found in nightgown in her own bed, AXE embedded in her forehead. Tot girl in room next door.

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Gorgeous young mom found in nightgown in her own bed, AXE embedded in her forehead. Tot girl in room next door. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Well, right, when you think you've heard it all, you'll
0:07
Speaker 1: find out you're nowhere near hearing it all. A man
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Speaker 1: comes home to find his wife murdered, not just murdered,
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Speaker 1: but with an axe still embedded in her forehead, lying
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Speaker 1: in her own bed, seemingly asleep at the time of
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Speaker 1: the incident. But to make matters worse, her three year look.
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Speaker 1: To make matters worse, her three year old little girl
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Speaker 1: at home when mommy was murdered. We knew that because
0:36
Speaker 1: the baby has blood on her clothing and she tried
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Speaker 1: to dress herself, putting on two sweaters backwards, clearly not
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Speaker 1: getting help from mommy. What happened? An axe embedded in
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Speaker 1: her forehead. I'm easy, Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime
1:02
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace Bright and Police responded to a
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Speaker 1: nine one one call from a neighbor of James Cross
1:13
Speaker 1: Nick Jr. When officers arrived at the neighbor's house, they
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Speaker 1: were ultimately led to the home of James, his wife, Kathleen,
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Speaker 1: and their daughter Sarah, who resided at thirty three Del
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Speaker 1: Rio Drive. Officers arrived at the house to find Kathleen deceased.
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Speaker 1: She died from a single blow to her head from
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Speaker 1: an axe. Gary Printy was an investigator on the case
1:35
Speaker 1: since day one. Print He says he'll never forget arriving
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Speaker 1: to the scene that day. It was not a pleasant scene.
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Speaker 1: It was the first one I had ever seen as violent,
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Speaker 1: and I hope I never see another one. The police
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Speaker 1: knocked on our door after midnight. Firstly they said there
1:53
Speaker 1: has been a They didn't call her a murder, a homicide.
2:00
Speaker 1: I know, will Kathy, Wow, you're hearing from our friends
2:03
Speaker 1: at w r OC News eight. That was reporter Kela
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Speaker 1: Green and others what happened to Kathleen? Kathleen found in
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Speaker 1: her bed with an axe embedded deeply in her forehead.
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Speaker 1: It sounds like the stuff that horror movies are made off.
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Speaker 1: You don't expect that in real life. For this lovely
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Speaker 1: wife and mother to be found with an axe embedded
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Speaker 1: in her forehead. It reminds you of the horrible histories
2:40
Speaker 1: of nursy rhymes like um, how does it go, Doctor
2:44
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall forty wax Lizzie, how does it go? Doctor Bethany?
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Speaker 1: That's right? And the Grimm's fairy tales where children are
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Speaker 1: shoved in ovens and all the horrible fairy tales that
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Speaker 1: we heard growing up. I do not remember the forty weeve. Okay,
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Speaker 1: you know, doctor Bethany Marshall. As much as I appreciate
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Speaker 1: you and all your many, many, many degrees and papers,
3:11
Speaker 1: I had to go to Jackie Howard in the studio.
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Speaker 1: How does it go, Jackie, Lizzie? What mother? Forty? Okay?
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Speaker 1: Thank you? See, I had to go to her institutional
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Speaker 1: memory of horror. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories.
3:24
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. My point is it's
3:27
Speaker 1: almost too awful to take in with me an all
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Speaker 1: star paddle, and boy do I mean it joining me.
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Speaker 1: Cloyd Steiger thirty six years, Seattle PD, twenty two years
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Speaker 1: homicide author of Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer, Gary Jean Grant.
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Speaker 1: You can find him at Cloyd Steiger dot com. Kathleen Murphy,
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Speaker 1: she knows her way around in North Carolina courtroom and beyond.
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Speaker 1: Renowned psycho analyst out of LA. Doctor Bethany Marshall at
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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com, South Carolina medical examiner and
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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And you may not
4:05
Speaker 1: agree with me, but I gotta tell you that is
4:07
Speaker 1: quite the read homicide investigation field guy. Doctor Michelle Dupree
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Speaker 1: joining me right now, reporter with The Democrat and Chronicle,
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Speaker 1: former co author of an upcoming book on this very
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Speaker 1: topic at kraussnet dot com. Nancy Monahan, Nancy, Before I
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Speaker 1: go to you, I've got to go to doctor Michelle Dupree,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle, an axe embedded in this woman's forehead and
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Speaker 1: she couldn't have been more defenseless. She apparently was asleep
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Speaker 1: in bed, Doctor Michelle. What, Doctor Michelle Dupree, does an
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Speaker 1: axe actually, at one blow with an axe to the skull,
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Speaker 1: I assume, depending on the velocity, would crack the skull
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Speaker 1: and go directly into the break. Yes. Absolutely, What a
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Speaker 1: gruesome scene that must have been, that world of obviously
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Speaker 1: through the skull and gone deep into the actual surface
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Speaker 1: of the brain, causing obviously extensive damage and death. How
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Speaker 1: much force would it require to actually crack the skull?
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Speaker 1: For instance, I've seen cases where someone had been bludge
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Speaker 1: and dead and the medical examiner would state, for instance,
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Speaker 1: this is the same velocity as you would get from
5:25
Speaker 1: a car crash at sixty mph. What velocity would it
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Speaker 1: take with an ax single blow to crack open the skull,
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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree. Because the axe is a sharp force instrument,
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Speaker 1: it is going to crack the skull with a little
5:40
Speaker 1: less force than you might expect. However, our skulls are
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Speaker 1: very thick, and it would still require an extensive amount
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Speaker 1: of force to do that. You know, when you say
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Speaker 1: our skulls are very thick, would you explain what you
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Speaker 1: mean by that? Because every time somebody feels a little
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Speaker 1: lump or they have a pimple or assist, they think
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Speaker 1: they have brain cancer or a tumor. But there is
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Speaker 1: a very thick skull between your skin and your brain.
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Speaker 1: So how thick is the skull? What, Nancy? The skull
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Speaker 1: actually varies in thickness depending on where we are talking about.
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Speaker 1: So the location though of this in this case is
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Speaker 1: the forehead, and the forehead is one of the thicker parts,
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Speaker 1: approximately a quarter of an inch to three quarters of
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Speaker 1: an inch thick in places. And the skull is made
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Speaker 1: of course bone. But what do you compare the density
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Speaker 1: of the skull too? Is it like a board, is
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Speaker 1: it like cement? What's the density? Well, that's the interesting question.
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Speaker 1: I've never really quite thought about it. It's more these
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Speaker 1: that's the first time I've thought about it. Doctor. The
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Speaker 1: density is certainly more like a board rather than a concrete.
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Speaker 1: It is not as hard as concrete would be. And again,
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Speaker 1: because the bone is somewhat porous, it is going to
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Speaker 1: be less dense than that. Guys, we are talking about
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Speaker 1: a beautiful young woman, Kathleen chrst Snack found bludgeen dead. Well,
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Speaker 1: I don't think bludgend is the right word. She was
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Speaker 1: attacked with an axe, one blow to the head. The
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Speaker 1: weapon interesting found, wiped clean of any fingerprints, and a
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Speaker 1: window broken from the outside. To Chloe Steiger, you know,
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Speaker 1: that's really an art to determine was the window broken
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Speaker 1: from the inside or the outside? Was a window screen
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Speaker 1: slashed from the inside or the outside? Explain how we
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Speaker 1: know a window was broken from the outside. This is
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Speaker 1: not like somebody broke it from the inside trying to
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Speaker 1: make it look like a break in, right or you
7:41
Speaker 1: have to know that you can tell the difference and
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Speaker 1: the most obvious difference. So when you break a window
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Speaker 1: from the outside, is that most of the broken glasses
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Speaker 1: on the inside, because that's the way the pivots would
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Speaker 1: take it. So that's actually a pretty simple thing to do.
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Speaker 1: And it's really common with people trying to stage crimes
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Speaker 1: to that they that they break a window or something.
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Speaker 1: The question you have to have is it's a broken window,
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Speaker 1: was there an opening picking up somebody to crawl in
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Speaker 1: without getting all cut up or not? And if there's not,
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Speaker 1: or what about big enough to get reach your hand
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Speaker 1: in to unlock the window and then lift the window. Well,
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Speaker 1: there's another issue. Many times I've been asked, how do
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Speaker 1: you tell off's window screen has been sliced from the
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Speaker 1: outside of the inside. You may not be able to
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Speaker 1: tell with the naked eye, but once you put the
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Speaker 1: screen under a microscope, you can actually see which way
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Speaker 1: the metal in the screen is bent. If it's spent
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Speaker 1: toward the inside of the room, it was slash from
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Speaker 1: the outside. If it's bent and it's you really do
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Speaker 1: have to look under a microscope to see this outward
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Speaker 1: toward the yard or the outside, then you know it
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Speaker 1: was staged and it was cut from the inside. Let's
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Speaker 1: go to our veteran reporter, Nancy Monahan, formerly with a
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Speaker 1: Democrat and Chronicle and co author on an upcoming book
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Speaker 1: on her murder. Nancy, thanks so much for being with us.
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Speaker 1: It's a it's a real pleasure to have someone so
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Speaker 1: close to the case to explain a lot of the
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Speaker 1: evidence to us. Tell me about the severity of the attack.
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Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the attack on Kathleen
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Speaker 1: Crossneck just twenty nine years old? It was one axe
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Speaker 1: blow to her left temple and how far that wound went.
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Speaker 1: I think it was pretty significant, and she was asleep,
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Speaker 1: as most axe murder victims are. It's hard to chase
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Speaker 1: down somebody with an axe, so you wouldn't pick an
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Speaker 1: axe if you had to chase somebody down the street.
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Speaker 1: I do want to mention that the broken window was downstairs.
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Speaker 1: It was the door from the garage to the kitchen
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Speaker 1: that was broken. Hold on, hold on, let me let
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Speaker 1: me digest what you just said. So the broken window
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Speaker 1: not in the bedroom. It was downstairs. It was the
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Speaker 1: door between the garage into the kitchen. So it's the
10:00
Speaker 1: door from the garage into the kitchen. I wonder if
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Speaker 1: that garage had a one of the doors that you
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Speaker 1: have to have a code to, or you have to
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Speaker 1: have an access or it may have even been left open.
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Speaker 1: It was open. There was no yes, it was. It
10:15
Speaker 1: was easy to get access to the garage. The door
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Speaker 1: to the garage was locked. And let me think, now,
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Speaker 1: from the garage into the kitchen. So do we know
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Speaker 1: which side the glass was on. Yes, they determined that
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Speaker 1: had been broken from the outside. Do you think the
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Speaker 1: person crawled through the door or they just broke the
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Speaker 1: door in order to get to the door handle, just
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Speaker 1: broke the window to get to the handle. Crime Stories
10:53
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, the gorgeous young wife of a business
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Speaker 1: executive found dead in her own bed. She was asleep
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Speaker 1: at the time she was attacked with an axe. Joining
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Speaker 1: me Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family attorney, Cloyd Stiger, doctor
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, doctor Michelle Duprie, and Nancy Monahan. I'm very
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Speaker 1: curious Cloyd Stiger how they could tell she was asleep
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Speaker 1: at the time she was attacked. I would guess it
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Speaker 1: was because the way the body was laying in the
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Speaker 1: lack of any defensive wounds or anything like that. And
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Speaker 1: if it wasn't her temple, and I thought it was
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Speaker 1: in her forty, maybe she was laying on her side
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Speaker 1: and it just looked like she had not reacted at all.
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Speaker 1: Her arms and legs were down beside her. Not. There
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Speaker 1: was no struggle at all. That's what I would guess.
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Speaker 1: You know what's really interesting to me, so many facts
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Speaker 1: in details, Doctor Bethany Marshall. The axe was wiped clean.
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Speaker 1: Now that is a big red flag to me, because,
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Speaker 1: yes it's anecdotal, it's based on all the cases I've investigated,
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Speaker 1: it tried or covered. But typically random attackers do not
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Speaker 1: take time to stage the saint to clean up the weapon.
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Speaker 1: They leave the weapon in her skull, but they wipe
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Speaker 1: it clean. Or is the weapon still in her skull?
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Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, Oh yes, yes it was. Wow. Okay, so
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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, who would think to wipe clean the
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Speaker 1: murder weapon? Well, this tells me that this was not
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Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, right, This is not somebody who's
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Speaker 1: just broke into the house to ransack and find jewelry
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Speaker 1: or cash. This is not somebody who just wanted to
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Speaker 1: commit a rape homicide. I'm assuming she wasn't sexually violated
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Speaker 1: that I haven't read that anywhere. So whoever did this
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Speaker 1: knew her, and I would want to know who had
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Speaker 1: she been in contact with? Did she have any admirers?
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Speaker 1: Was she having an affair? Was she being stalked. Was
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Speaker 1: there a person in the neighborhood who had taken a
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Speaker 1: special interest in her? The fact that somebody in betted
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Speaker 1: an axe in her forehead and then wiped up the
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Speaker 1: evidence means that this is somebody who had tremendous rage
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Speaker 1: towards her, And to me, that speaks of a crime
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Speaker 1: of passion, whether it's espoused a stalker, an ex boyfriend,
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Speaker 1: but somebody who took a very special interest in her
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Speaker 1: and felt that she had maybe jilted them or rejected
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Speaker 1: them in some way. I'm also curious too, Nancy Monahan
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Speaker 1: a report from a reporter Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy, was
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Speaker 1: she sex assaulted or had anything been stolen from the home? No?
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Speaker 1: To both, she was not and nothing had been taken.
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Speaker 1: I can't imagine the shock it would bring on when
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Speaker 1: you come in and find your wife dead with the
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Speaker 1: axe still embedded in her head. Doctor Bethany Marshall, I
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Speaker 1: just keep saying, it doesn't even sound real. It sounds
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Speaker 1: like it's from a horror maybe, right, So you imagine
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Speaker 1: her husband comes home around five PM, right. I imagine
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Speaker 1: he was an executive. I think he had a doctorate.
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Speaker 1: He comes in he sees his wife with an act
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Speaker 1: embedded in her skull. This was so long ago that
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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are there any nine one one calls it?
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Speaker 1: Has anyone spoken to his demeanor when he called the police?
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Speaker 1: Did he seem calm? Did he seemed agitated? I mean,
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Speaker 1: I think that type of behavioral evidence would be so
14:17
Speaker 1: important in beginning to try to solve this crime, since
14:21
Speaker 1: in these sorts of crimes, you always looked at the
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Speaker 1: spouse first. So I'm wondering what how did he behave
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Speaker 1: after he found his wife with the axe embedded in
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Speaker 1: her skull? Are there any detectives or policemen who were
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Speaker 1: working that working that particular crime who spoke to that. Well,
14:39
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. In every homicide investigation, the first place
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Speaker 1: cops the detective's look as at spouse, the boyfriend, the ex,
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Speaker 1: the x spouse, and as you were pointing out anybody
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Speaker 1: in the neighborhood or at work that had been paying
14:55
Speaker 1: special attention to her. Take a listen to what her sister,
15:00
Speaker 1: Annette Slauser tells Wham thirteen. James Krausnick told police he'd
15:04
Speaker 1: come home from his Kodak job to find his twenty
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Speaker 1: nine year old wife dead with an axe embedded in
15:09
Speaker 1: her skull. The couple's three and a half year old
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Speaker 1: daughter had spent the day alone in the home with
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Speaker 1: her mother's corpse. I remember dropping to my knees in
15:17
Speaker 1: my dorm room. I just couldn't believe it. She was
15:19
Speaker 1: my favorite sister and my best friend. To Nancy Monaghan,
15:23
Speaker 1: former reporter Democrat and Chronicle and who has also co
15:27
Speaker 1: authored a book on this murder, Nancy Question, the sister
15:32
Speaker 1: gets the call about the murder and the three year
15:37
Speaker 1: old little girl was in her crib all day with
15:40
Speaker 1: her mother dead. She was not in her crib. She
15:44
Speaker 1: was in the house all day long, wandering around. She
15:48
Speaker 1: had been in the bedroom, saw her mother actually had
15:51
Speaker 1: a little blood on her clothing, but didn't recognize that
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Speaker 1: her as her mother, And she was wandering around the
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Speaker 1: house all day. By the time her husband, Kathy's husband
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Speaker 1: came home, little Sarah was back in her bedroom and
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Speaker 1: she had tried to address herself. She had on two
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Speaker 1: sweaters backwards. Oh you know what, just that detail. It's
16:13
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer to
16:19
Speaker 1: leave the three year old little girl wandering around the
16:21
Speaker 1: house all day long. She goes and finds her mom's body.
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Speaker 1: Nancy Mona had clarified that because she actually had blood.
16:28
Speaker 1: I think she said some of the little girl's clothing,
16:31
Speaker 1: so she had made it to her mom and had
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Speaker 1: come to try to dress herself, putting on her sweaters backwards.
16:36
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the kind of thing a child never forgets.
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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, that child will never forget that experience. And Nancy,
16:43
Speaker 1: with that child wandering around the house for the entire day,
16:48
Speaker 1: I just wonder what did she see? And at three
16:53
Speaker 1: and a half years old, what has she vocalized at
16:56
Speaker 1: that point to the police officers, Because at that age
17:00
Speaker 1: she's old enough to tell somebody what she saw and
17:05
Speaker 1: what she interviews. You know, I have a question to
17:08
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, what can you tell me about the
17:10
Speaker 1: brutality behind twenty nine year old Kathleen's axe murder and
17:15
Speaker 1: what does that tell you about her killer? He tells
17:18
Speaker 1: me that the killer had a relationship with her, and
17:22
Speaker 1: what I mean by that was maybe in love with her,
17:25
Speaker 1: had a preoccupation with her, was fascinated by her, felt
17:30
Speaker 1: rejected by her. But whoever put this axe in her skull,
17:35
Speaker 1: was obsessed with this victim. You don't kill somebody in
17:40
Speaker 1: that kind of an overkill, brutal kind of way unless
17:44
Speaker 1: you have feelings right, feelings of rejection, rage and the hostility,
17:51
Speaker 1: feeling jilted in some way, and unless those feelings have
17:54
Speaker 1: been brewing for some time. So whoever did this knew
17:58
Speaker 1: her over months or even years, Nancy, Because these feelings
18:02
Speaker 1: don't just crop up in five minutes. You don't just
18:04
Speaker 1: break into a house start looking for cash and jewelry.
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Speaker 1: See a woman and oh I am so enraged, I'm
18:10
Speaker 1: just going to put an axe in her forehead. No,
18:12
Speaker 1: you are going to have a relationship with that person.
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Speaker 1: That's what the brutality tells me. Nancy Monahan, former reporter
18:19
Speaker 1: with Democrat and Chronicle who has extensively researched the murder.
18:26
Speaker 1: Tell me about the brutality of Kathleen's murder. I've done
18:30
Speaker 1: a lot of research on axe murders, and they are
18:35
Speaker 1: they are very personal. They are always filled with rage,
18:40
Speaker 1: and I mean it is a statement well beyond any
18:44
Speaker 1: other weapon that someone someone can use and all it takes,
18:48
Speaker 1: and all it took in this case was that one
18:51
Speaker 1: major blow that cracked her skull open. Interestingly, there was
18:56
Speaker 1: no blood on the wall, you know, it didn't spat
19:00
Speaker 1: or there was certainly after the you know, after the
19:03
Speaker 1: axe went in, the blood did run down, and there
19:05
Speaker 1: was a lot of blood on her and the bed um.
19:08
Speaker 1: And that's that's what the young girl, Sarah, the daughter saw. Well,
19:12
Speaker 1: we also knew this there was premeditation because unless they
19:17
Speaker 1: sleep with an axe by their bed, somebody, as Jackie's
19:20
Speaker 1: pointing out, had to bring that axe upstairs. Not only
19:24
Speaker 1: that they kill her, thought to wipe the axe clean.
19:38
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, of course, she was just
19:48
Speaker 1: a wonderful girl, I mean, or on going intelligent. That's
19:52
Speaker 1: there as it went on, you know, I mean, I
19:56
Speaker 1: want me fold out for sure that he didn't never
19:58
Speaker 1: passed his he got his doctors well then when I
20:02
Speaker 1: knew them, because he lied to her that he had.
20:05
Speaker 1: All the time you are hearing Robert Schloss or Kathleen's father,
20:10
Speaker 1: he's talking to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle to Nancy Monahan.
20:15
Speaker 1: You know, it may have been considered irrelevant at the time,
20:18
Speaker 1: but I find it very relevant when you find out
20:22
Speaker 1: for all the time you have courted and been married.
20:25
Speaker 1: Your husband has been lying to you about earning his PhD.
20:30
Speaker 1: What can you tell me? Nancy Monahan joining me, who
20:33
Speaker 1: has co authored a book on Kathleen Crossneck's murder. Nancy,
20:38
Speaker 1: what did he claim he had his PhD in economy?
20:43
Speaker 1: He was a pH He said he was a PhD economist.
20:46
Speaker 1: He had not, in fact earned his PhD, which was
20:49
Speaker 1: one of the really striking issues in this whole affair.
20:54
Speaker 1: He did, and he had finished his dissertation. He had
20:56
Speaker 1: done all the coursework. All he had to do was
20:59
Speaker 1: make a few changes in his dissertation, which he never did.
21:04
Speaker 1: He lied to his co workers at Lynchburg. He got
21:09
Speaker 1: the job at Kodak based on the fact that he
21:12
Speaker 1: had the PhD or said he had the PhD. Uh,
21:17
Speaker 1: And he never did. And even when Kodak was was
21:21
Speaker 1: pressing him to show proof that he had the PhD
21:24
Speaker 1: after he had started working. This was a major issue
21:28
Speaker 1: in the household and at Kodak because he was under
21:31
Speaker 1: pressure to produce it. He kept saying that that it
21:34
Speaker 1: had been and there was some paperwork mix up at
21:38
Speaker 1: Colorado State where he had attended and done all his work,
21:42
Speaker 1: and to the end he claimed that he had the PhD,
21:46
Speaker 1: but he didn't. I'm very interested in his lying about
21:50
Speaker 1: who he really is. I'm really curious about what he
21:56
Speaker 1: claimed he wrote his dissertation about, because I remember how
22:01
Speaker 1: hard my sister, who went to the Wharton School and
22:04
Speaker 1: actually became a professor there, how hard she worked getting
22:09
Speaker 1: her PhD. I mean it is hard. I mean technically speaking,
22:14
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, we're juris doctorates because we went through three
22:20
Speaker 1: years of law school. But I don't think many the
22:25
Speaker 1: lawyers had to write a dissertation. It's very, very hard
22:29
Speaker 1: to do, Kathleen Murphy. I couldn't imagine it except to say,
22:33
Speaker 1: Nancy that do you remember studying for the bar and
22:38
Speaker 1: taking the bar Exan and knowing that if you didn't pass,
22:42
Speaker 1: you weren't going to be that practicing lawyer. It's intense
22:45
Speaker 1: and it is a professional Kathleen Murphy, I can't. Maybe
22:49
Speaker 1: I'm blocked got out, but the bar either I staid
22:52
Speaker 1: two or three days, you'd have to go back. You
22:55
Speaker 1: didn't finish it in one day, and it would take
22:58
Speaker 1: eight hours. And I remember going in and I would
23:01
Speaker 1: not even get up while we were taking the test.
23:04
Speaker 1: To even go to the bathroom because I did not
23:06
Speaker 1: literally want to miss one minute of that could risk
23:11
Speaker 1: not completing it or not being able to go back
23:14
Speaker 1: over and check my answers. And it was almost like
23:18
Speaker 1: a lost track of time and space during the bar.
23:22
Speaker 1: It was like I sat down and all of a sudden,
23:25
Speaker 1: the day the eight hours were over, and when I
23:27
Speaker 1: finished the bar Kathleen, it was being held in Atlanta,
23:31
Speaker 1: and had to drive back to my apartment in make And,
23:34
Speaker 1: which was about a two hour drive. I got in
23:37
Speaker 1: the car and I had to get out from behind
23:39
Speaker 1: the wheel. Somebody else had to drive, and I had
23:42
Speaker 1: to lay down in the back seat because it felt
23:44
Speaker 1: like the moment I had finished the bar after whatever
23:47
Speaker 1: two or three days and sat down in the car,
23:50
Speaker 1: it felt like somebody hit me in the head with
23:51
Speaker 1: a cement brick. And I mean, I had never felt
23:54
Speaker 1: anything like it in my life. I could hardly even
23:57
Speaker 1: see that's when it kicked in. But I remember Kathleen
24:01
Speaker 1: going to get my L L M. A. M. Yu.
24:05
Speaker 1: We had paper after paper after paper. But I guess
24:09
Speaker 1: you could compare it to that. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst
24:14
Speaker 1: out of Beverly Hills, doctor Bethany. Why do people lie
24:18
Speaker 1: about their credentials? I mean he had a college degree.
24:21
Speaker 1: He could have gone back and finished the dissertation, made
24:24
Speaker 1: the change. You heard what Nancy Mona had said, but
24:26
Speaker 1: he didn't. He chose to lie about it instead. This
24:30
Speaker 1: guy falls into a very special category. And he's not alone.
24:33
Speaker 1: He's what we call ABD ABD is all that dissertation.
24:38
Speaker 1: There's a subject. Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait
24:40
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, I've never heard that before and a
24:45
Speaker 1: BD I'm writing it down. Oh but the dissertation, Okay,
24:51
Speaker 1: go ahead. I actually treated a couple a number of
24:54
Speaker 1: years ago where the husband claimed that he got his
24:56
Speaker 1: dissertation and the wife found out and I learned all
24:59
Speaker 1: about It's a group of people who go through all
25:02
Speaker 1: of their training and for some reason, they do not
25:05
Speaker 1: want to defend their dissertation. And by defend, defending a
25:10
Speaker 1: dissertation means that you've already written, met, you already have
25:13
Speaker 1: your committee of three people. Defending doesn't mean that you
25:16
Speaker 1: talk about your dissertation. You have to sit down and
25:19
Speaker 1: listen to your committee criticize and tear apart your dissertation.
25:23
Speaker 1: So you have to hear what they have to say
25:26
Speaker 1: about your body of work. But think about this, Nancy.
25:29
Speaker 1: So if I think of my education, I have three
25:31
Speaker 1: years of college, four years of graduate school, and in
25:34
Speaker 1: sixteen years of postgraduate in order to become a psychoanalyst.
25:37
Speaker 1: Imagine going through all of that and not being able
25:40
Speaker 1: to sit down and hear what other people have to
25:42
Speaker 1: say about your body of work. I mean, what I've
25:44
Speaker 1: seen with people who are ABD is that they are
25:47
Speaker 1: very avoidant individuals. And usually they are avoidant in every
25:51
Speaker 1: part of their life. They do not want to be criticized,
25:53
Speaker 1: They do not want people to look down on them.
25:55
Speaker 1: Sometimes they have social anxiety. So if Crowsneck falls into
25:59
Speaker 1: this category, this is not the only thing he's lying
26:02
Speaker 1: about in his life. There are probably many things that
26:05
Speaker 1: he has not faced or been responsible about. And this
26:09
Speaker 1: is not a man who can tolerate criticism. Because he
26:11
Speaker 1: did not want to present his dissertation to his committee,
26:15
Speaker 1: to Dancy Monahan, who has actually written a book about
26:19
Speaker 1: this murder. Nancy, what was his undergrad degree in? And
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm sure his wife, Kathleen Crossneck would have loved him
26:26
Speaker 1: if he had said, I'm working on my PhD. I
26:28
Speaker 1: don't think that would have changed. His family code would
26:32
Speaker 1: probably have hired him anyway, knowing that he was working
26:35
Speaker 1: on his dissertation. What was his undergrad degree in if
26:38
Speaker 1: you know Nancy, it was some sort of a business degree.
26:41
Speaker 1: But you know, remember Kathleen did not know this in
26:46
Speaker 1: the beginning. He went right from Colorado State and his
26:51
Speaker 1: dissertation to his teaching job at Lynchburg and was saying
26:56
Speaker 1: that he was working on it. His colleagues knew that
27:00
Speaker 1: he didn't have it and that he was supposedly working
27:03
Speaker 1: on it, just filing the corrections. So it was a
27:07
Speaker 1: good while. In fact, I believe it was after they
27:09
Speaker 1: moved to Rochester before Kathleen found out that there was
27:13
Speaker 1: no degree, and it was only a few months before
27:16
Speaker 1: her death, you know, and just very I wouldn't say obsessed,
27:20
Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated with a desire to lie. And sometimes
27:26
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, my children will come home and say so
27:29
Speaker 1: and so Johnny said that his dad works for special
27:32
Speaker 1: ops and that he this and he that, and he
27:36
Speaker 1: has you know, a treasure and chest of gold coins
27:39
Speaker 1: hid and blah blah, And I say, children, wait, wa wait,
27:42
Speaker 1: be nice to Johnny, because not his real name, because
27:47
Speaker 1: I believe people boast and lie to make themselves feel
27:52
Speaker 1: better about themselves because they obviously have some kind of insecurity.
27:56
Speaker 1: They can't just be who they are. Why do people
28:00
Speaker 1: themselves up, for instance, on their resume, not just to
28:03
Speaker 1: get a job, but in lies. Why do you lie
28:05
Speaker 1: about it? Why do people lie? For three different reasons. First,
28:08
Speaker 1: there's the pathological liar. The pathological liar says whatever comes
28:13
Speaker 1: to their mind to actually manipulate the people around them.
28:17
Speaker 1: They're more callous, manipulative, and they kind of fall into
28:20
Speaker 1: this category of puffery and they don't think they'll be
28:24
Speaker 1: caught for their lies. The second category of lying is
28:27
Speaker 1: what we call compulsive lying. Compulsive lying is when you
28:31
Speaker 1: quickly say whatever comes to your mind in order to
28:34
Speaker 1: please another person, Like if I had I saw this
28:38
Speaker 1: couple where the wife would say to the husband, did
28:41
Speaker 1: you get the milk at the grocery store And he's saying, hey, yeah,
28:43
Speaker 1: I got it, and she looked in the refrigerator there
28:45
Speaker 1: was no milk, and he wanted to please her in
28:47
Speaker 1: that moment, not thinking that she would catch him. We
28:50
Speaker 1: go back to the first category. I think this guy
28:53
Speaker 1: was probably pretty sociopathic in different areas of his life,
28:57
Speaker 1: and probably lied extensively and had this whole kind of
29:01
Speaker 1: an alter ego or personality that he presented to the
29:03
Speaker 1: people around him. And a part of it was a
29:06
Speaker 1: cover for the avoidance of not, you know, finishing the dissertation.
29:10
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be surprised if he told other stories
29:13
Speaker 1: about himself too, more in that manipulative kind of way.
29:17
Speaker 1: Just it's puffery, but it's also manipulation. He's manipulating how
29:21
Speaker 1: people see him for his own gratification without any sense
29:25
Speaker 1: of what that's going to do to the lives of
29:27
Speaker 1: those around him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace welcome back.
29:45
Speaker 1: I means he Grace. This is crime Stories. What happened
29:48
Speaker 1: Kathleen Krassneck found dead in her own bed just twenty
29:53
Speaker 1: nine years old, with an act still embedded deeply in
29:57
Speaker 1: her forehead. I find it. It's interesting and probitive. It
30:02
Speaker 1: proved something that she was attacked in her face in
30:06
Speaker 1: her forehead. Of course, you'd have to be a shrink
30:09
Speaker 1: to figure out what that means. But I know this.
30:11
Speaker 1: Although her husband, James Kraussneck, had the higher paying job
30:16
Speaker 1: that he wanted trouble was brewing. His bosses at Kodak
30:22
Speaker 1: were asking him about his PhD. He kept promising to
30:25
Speaker 1: give them evidence that he had in fact gotten the degree.
30:28
Speaker 1: Pressure was mounting at work, he became distant at home.
30:31
Speaker 1: Wife Kathy actually told her friends he would come home
30:34
Speaker 1: from work angry. Police later said it appeared he had
30:39
Speaker 1: been sleeping in the den. The marriage strained, Kathy had
30:44
Speaker 1: started talking about leaving and taking Sarah home to Michigan.
30:51
Speaker 1: So many factors swirling around the murder of Kathleen Krausneck,
30:56
Speaker 1: just twenty nine years old at the time of her death,
31:00
Speaker 1: and then a twist in the case. Brighton police renewed
31:03
Speaker 1: their efforts on the case four years ago and listing
31:06
Speaker 1: help from the FBI. What led to the arrest today
31:08
Speaker 1: has not been revealed, but Kathleen's sister believes she knows
31:12
Speaker 1: the motive. I believe, knowing my sister, she was all
31:19
Speaker 1: about education that Jim did not actually pass his verbal dessertation,
31:27
Speaker 1: so he did not earn his PhD, and he lied
31:31
Speaker 1: about it, and he was calling himself doctor Krausnick. When
31:35
Speaker 1: she found out, I am certain she confronted him on it.
31:40
Speaker 1: She snapped and I believe that's when he killed her.
31:46
Speaker 1: Kathleen Cross next ninety two year old father, still alive,
31:48
Speaker 1: found out the news today. He's charged with murder. He
31:52
Speaker 1: posted bail and I think a lot of us will
31:55
Speaker 1: remember talking to police that night that it appeared that
31:57
Speaker 1: they made it look whoever did it, made it look
31:59
Speaker 1: like there'd been a burglary in the house, but there
32:01
Speaker 1: was always doubt. You're hearing our friends at Wham thirteen.
32:04
Speaker 1: That was Doug Mbs talking. Not only Doug, but you're
32:09
Speaker 1: hearing Kathleen's sister as well. Murder over a pH D.
32:14
Speaker 1: That's a little far fast, you know, when people go
32:17
Speaker 1: that far too almost get their PhD, to get through
32:20
Speaker 1: all that education, you'd think they were well reasoned and
32:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't commit a murder. But take a listen to this.
32:27
Speaker 1: The trial of the husband accused in the Brighton axe
32:30
Speaker 1: murder could hinge on what a nationally known doctor has
32:33
Speaker 1: to say about one small but key detail. Doctor Michael
32:37
Speaker 1: Baden is known as the celebrity pathologist. The expert has
32:41
Speaker 1: conducted over twenty thousand autopsies and investigated the assassinations of
32:46
Speaker 1: President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior now
32:50
Speaker 1: Brighton Police say the timeline is crucial. Thirteen Wham reports
32:54
Speaker 1: that James Krausnek told authorities his wife and daughter were
32:58
Speaker 1: sleeping when he left for work at thirty am. His
33:01
Speaker 1: wife died of a single blow to her head with
33:04
Speaker 1: an axe. After an autopsy, the medical examiner ruled the
33:07
Speaker 1: time of death was actually between two thirty and nine
33:11
Speaker 1: thirty am, plenty of time for her husband to have
33:14
Speaker 1: completed the crime before he left for work. And that's
33:17
Speaker 1: why Brighton police are bringing on doctor Baton to confirm
33:20
Speaker 1: the timeline. Wow, our friend's w e n Why that
33:24
Speaker 1: was Olivia Jaqui too? Nancy Monahan, former reporter, Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy,
33:31
Speaker 1: after all these years, why the police now believe Kathleen's husband,
33:35
Speaker 1: James is the killer? And what can you tell me
33:37
Speaker 1: about the evidence supporting their client. Well, the time of
33:40
Speaker 1: death is clearly one of the big issues that they
33:43
Speaker 1: are pursuing. And whoever was speaking there, it was correct
33:49
Speaker 1: that they've originally said it was between two thirty and
33:53
Speaker 1: nine thirty. He left the house at six thirty and
33:57
Speaker 1: if they can narrow that time of death to anything,
34:01
Speaker 1: that's close to being before six thirty. Their case obviously
34:05
Speaker 1: is a whole lot stronger. That time of death has
34:08
Speaker 1: always been one of the key factors in this case,
34:11
Speaker 1: and doctor Boden has I don't know what his testimony
34:16
Speaker 1: is going to be, but clearly he has found something
34:19
Speaker 1: in the evidence that he has been able to narrow
34:21
Speaker 1: the time of death. I don't know if he has
34:24
Speaker 1: a precise time of death. I don't think so based
34:27
Speaker 1: on everything I know about how they determine that, but
34:30
Speaker 1: he has obviously found something that narrows it much closer.
34:34
Speaker 1: And the other thing is there was no DNA in
34:37
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two when this happened. I know that they
34:41
Speaker 1: have had said, sent several pieces of evidence and did
34:45
Speaker 1: some DNA testing. However, it's really difficult to understand what
34:51
Speaker 1: exactly they would if they found anything on the DNA
34:54
Speaker 1: that would be useful now against mister Krausnak. He lived
34:59
Speaker 1: there his day, DNA was all over the house, so
35:02
Speaker 1: that's uncertain. They're keeping the evidence quite close to the
35:05
Speaker 1: vest but time of death is clearly a key one.
35:09
Speaker 1: Floyd Steiger thirty six years Seattle PD, including twenty two
35:13
Speaker 1: years on homicide. Floyd yes, someone's DNA is going to
35:18
Speaker 1: be found in their home. But what DNA since the
35:22
Speaker 1: AX was what clean would you expect to find? Well,
35:25
Speaker 1: that's an amazing thing about DNA technology today because just
35:28
Speaker 1: a few years ago nothing, but because the advanced ability
35:32
Speaker 1: to collect minute mounts DNA and processes, now you would
35:35
Speaker 1: expect to find touch DNA. And Nancy mcman was correct,
35:40
Speaker 1: you know, finding the husband's touch DNA on an AX
35:42
Speaker 1: that was presumably their act would be nothing. But what
35:46
Speaker 1: would mean something is if they didn't find anybody else's
35:48
Speaker 1: DAN on that act. Because even if you wiped it clean,
35:51
Speaker 1: they're still going to be touch DNA on that act
35:53
Speaker 1: unless you bleach it or you know, there's DNA is
35:56
Speaker 1: still when you put closer the wash and come out,
35:58
Speaker 1: they can find DNA on the cold and still. So
36:01
Speaker 1: I mean that's yeah, the absence of someone else at
36:05
Speaker 1: being on the AX haddle is huge. The case remained
36:07
Speaker 1: unsolved for decades, but the FBI's Cold Case Working Group
36:11
Speaker 1: took it back up in twenty sixteen and carried out
36:14
Speaker 1: new forensic tests. Based on those forensic tests, detectives now
36:19
Speaker 1: point the finger at the husband who lied about his
36:22
Speaker 1: pH D exactly as Kloisiker says. No one else's DNA
36:28
Speaker 1: turned up in the home, no rape, no theft, the
36:33
Speaker 1: axed wipe claim that means the scene was staged. The
36:38
Speaker 1: grand jury on sild in indictment against the husband, charging
36:42
Speaker 1: him with secondary murder. And the first of his four wives,
36:47
Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan. Who were these other women? Are they still alive? Yes?
36:51
Speaker 1: They are. He married his second wife in Michigan after
36:56
Speaker 1: this happened. He took Sarah and went back to Michigan,
37:00
Speaker 1: and that was in nineteen eighty two. And he married
37:03
Speaker 1: his second wife in nineteen eighty six. They were only
37:07
Speaker 1: married a very short time and a difficult situation. And
37:12
Speaker 1: then he married his third wife around late eighties or
37:18
Speaker 1: maybe nineteen ninety. I don't have the date in front
37:20
Speaker 1: of me, but we do know that they were married
37:22
Speaker 1: about five years. And now he's married to his fourth wife.
37:25
Speaker 1: They've been married, oh, at least ten years or so,
37:29
Speaker 1: probably a little longer, and they're spilled together. We know
37:33
Speaker 1: the Crassneck had been released one hundred thousand dollars bail
37:37
Speaker 1: and he handed in his passport the trial. He's fled,
37:41
Speaker 1: not guilty, and apparently his now adult daughter, Sarah is
37:47
Speaker 1: signing with him. What about it, Nancy Monahan, Well, remember,
37:53
Speaker 1: you know, this girl grew up from she was three
37:55
Speaker 1: and a half when this happened, so she grew up
37:58
Speaker 1: with her father. I think it's it's it's human nature.
38:02
Speaker 1: If somebody tells you your father killed somebody, you aren't
38:05
Speaker 1: going to believe it. And uh, you know, the tragic
38:09
Speaker 1: situation here is with this girl. She has two little
38:12
Speaker 1: daughters of her own, one born on her mother's birthday,
38:16
Speaker 1: by the way, and whatever she remembers, if she remembers
38:20
Speaker 1: something she did three years later, she was talking in
38:23
Speaker 1: school about the day her mother died, but she never
38:27
Speaker 1: there was never a counselor, there was no professional help
38:30
Speaker 1: given to this girl. So whatever she knew, if she
38:34
Speaker 1: what she knew, what she saw, is repressed. I would
38:41
Speaker 1: suspect if you're a psychologist, I just don't understand why
38:45
Speaker 1: they gave this guy bond. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer.
38:49
Speaker 1: Why did he get bond? I would say it's the
38:52
Speaker 1: time lapse of this murder, and it's a highly circumstantial case.
38:56
Speaker 1: I mean, if you so, you're the prosecutor, Nancy, and
39:00
Speaker 1: I think that in these types of cases, it's very
39:03
Speaker 1: frustrating when there's a bond issued, especially when he left
39:08
Speaker 1: the state the very next day after the murder of
39:12
Speaker 1: his wife. Well, I can tell you this. The fact
39:15
Speaker 1: that the killer managed to walk free for all these years,
39:19
Speaker 1: in my mind, makes the case even worse. I don't
39:23
Speaker 1: understand the judge granting bond does not weigh in on
39:29
Speaker 1: the facts to say it's a weak case, or it's
39:31
Speaker 1: not a weak case, or it's circumstantial. The facts and
39:35
Speaker 1: the law are up to the jury. They are the soul.
39:38
Speaker 1: That's where they're the sole profits of the jury to
39:41
Speaker 1: determine if the facts are weak or strong. This is
39:44
Speaker 1: a murder indictment, and the fact that the killer has
39:47
Speaker 1: managed to slither away for all these years should not
39:52
Speaker 1: be a bonus and him get bond. Absolutely not. I'm
39:58
Speaker 1: very upset about him getting He has pled not guilty
40:03
Speaker 1: based on what we know. I'm just also questioning to
40:08
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, why would the daughter's side with the dad. Well,
40:13
Speaker 1: probably he's been weaving a tail all these years. Remember
40:18
Speaker 1: he lied about a dissertation. He moved her out of
40:21
Speaker 1: state the very next day after the homicide. And he's
40:25
Speaker 1: probably been kind of working her over, so to speak,
40:28
Speaker 1: all these years. You know, when we have a realization
40:31
Speaker 1: about our parents, we don't have it in one instant.
40:35
Speaker 1: I have patients come to therapy and they talk for
40:38
Speaker 1: years about their childhood before they finally have insight into
40:42
Speaker 1: who their parents are, especially if they have a very
40:44
Speaker 1: personality disordered parent. So even though she's siding with her fathers,
40:49
Speaker 1: she actually might secretly be sitting in court and kind
40:53
Speaker 1: of listening to all the evidence and thinking, I wonder
40:56
Speaker 1: if he did do it. You know, some people, when
40:59
Speaker 1: they have presented to them that's contrary to what they
41:03
Speaker 1: already believe, it will entrench their beliefs further. But she
41:06
Speaker 1: may be one of these people where she's siding with
41:09
Speaker 1: him to the public, but behind the scenes, talking to
41:13
Speaker 1: her friends, talking to her therapist, talking to her confidence,
41:16
Speaker 1: and trying to grapple with what right might really have
41:19
Speaker 1: happened to her mother and to her on that fateful day.
41:22
Speaker 1: I feel that there's gotten to be more evidence that
41:24
Speaker 1: we don't know about supporting this grand jury indictment. The
41:28
Speaker 1: fact that there was no one else's DNA there. The
41:31
Speaker 1: scene was stage. He leaves immediately after the murderer and
41:34
Speaker 1: refuses to speak to police, then moves again. Did he ever,
41:39
Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, submit to a polygraph or did he ever
41:42
Speaker 1: sit down and talk to police? And where was the funeral?
41:44
Speaker 1: He talked to police that evening that night after right
41:48
Speaker 1: after the discovery, but his parents drove from Michigan overnight
41:52
Speaker 1: and he had promised to come back to the police
41:55
Speaker 1: station the next morning. He did not. He and Sarah
41:58
Speaker 1: went with the parents and went back to Michigan. He
42:01
Speaker 1: never had a polygraph. He was never interviewed by the police.
42:06
Speaker 1: He did hire a lawyer who you know, as defense
42:09
Speaker 1: lawyers do do not allow the police to talk to
42:14
Speaker 1: him without conditions. So he No, he never spoke to
42:18
Speaker 1: police until in twenty and sixteen, an investigator from the
42:24
Speaker 1: Brighton Police Department did go to Gig Harbor in Washington
42:28
Speaker 1: where he was living then with an FBI agent and
42:31
Speaker 1: they did speak to him then at that time, I
42:34
Speaker 1: do not know what he said. I do know it
42:36
Speaker 1: was a bit of a lengthy interview, but I don't
42:39
Speaker 1: know what he said. We also know that there were
42:41
Speaker 1: marital problems. He was sleeping on the sofa. We also
42:45
Speaker 1: know that he claimed he would let the daughter talk
42:48
Speaker 1: to police and have an interview, but that never happened.
42:53
Speaker 1: While he seemingly appeared to be cooperative, he never followed
42:57
Speaker 1: through and left town. Well I know this. I know
43:02
Speaker 1: that forensic pathologist, doctor Michael Boden, who I respect deeply,
43:06
Speaker 1: don't always agree with him, is going to testify in
43:10
Speaker 1: this case. Press conferences have gone on. Of course, his
43:16
Speaker 1: daughter standing by him, which is going to have a
43:18
Speaker 1: huge impact on the jury. Who would assume she would
43:21
Speaker 1: want justice for her mother? As it stands right now
43:25
Speaker 1: in New York, if convicted on second degree murder, the
43:28
Speaker 1: sentence is fifteen to twenty five years behind bars. We
43:33
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray scribe story signing off
43:37
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,