Latest / Karl and Crew / Unbreakable Courage with Max Lucado & Have You Ever Wondered with Gavin Matthews

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Unbreakable Courage with Max Lucado & Have You Ever Wondered with Gavin Matthews · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S2: Do you ever play the game of telephone when you
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  S2: were a kid?
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  S3: Yeah, absolutely. Loved that game. Did you? Yeah, I did.
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  S3: I to be honest, I, uh, I would often try
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  S3: to mess it up.
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  S5: I knew you were gonna say that because.
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  S3: It was way more fun. It's way more fun. And
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  S3: so someone would whisper the saying, maybe we should talk
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  S3: about what telephone is first.
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  S2: So how it starts is it's a line of people
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  S2: either lined up or in a circle, and somebody whispers
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  S2: into the ear of the person next to him. Let's say, um,
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  S2: what would be a phrase?
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  S3: Uh, the cat only comes out at midnight.
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  S2: Okay. And so then the person gets the message and
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  S2: they turn to the person next to them, and they
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  S2: say the cat only comes out at midnight. But what
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  S2: happens is usually after like the fifth person, maybe a
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  S2: word gets dropped or you because you can't ask it again,
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  S2: you can't say, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't fully understand.
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  S2: Can you repeat it? You get one shot at it,
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  S2: and then you got to give your best guess to
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  S2: repeat it. And predictably, by the end of the 25th person,
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  S2: it's always funny to hear them say out loud what
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  S2: they heard and how it compares to what the first
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  S2: person actually did say.
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  S3: Yes, absolutely.
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  S2: And so you were you would take the cat only
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  S2: comes out at midnight and do what? Intentionally?
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  S3: Yes. I intentionally mess it up. I mean, I was
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  S3: in elementary school, so this is very commonplace. Of course,
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  S3: someone would whisper the saying in my ear and I'd go,
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  S3: what did you say? And then I would act like
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  S3: I didn't hear it, and then I'd go and speak
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  S3: something totally different to the next person. It was, uh,
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  S3: it looked bad. You look back on stuff you did
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  S3: like that as a kid, and it doesn't. It make
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  S3: you just cringe a little bit when you think about it?
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  S2: Yeah, it really does.
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  S3: It does. But I mean, it's what kids do.
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  S2: There's so many things from elementary school and middle school
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  S2: that I'd like to have back.
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  S3: But you can't. And that's part of growing up.
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  S2: That's part of the growth process. But the whole fun
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  S2: of the game of telephone, it would actually be a
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  S2: really boring game if the 25th person to hear the
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  S2: message said, the cat only comes out at midnight.
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  S3: Right.
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  S2: And it would.
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  S3: Be.
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  S2: Like.
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  S3: Oh, that's not fun.
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  S2: That wasn't fun. Yeah.
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  S3: You don't really want. It's a game you don't want
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  S3: to win.
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  S2: Exactly. It's only fun if the message gets hilariously misinterpreted.
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  S2: We are not good listeners, and games like telephone go well,
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  S2: because that's true of us. Very true. We are often
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  S2: distracted in our listening. What did you say then? Now
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  S2: you bring phones and devices into the picture. And I
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  S2: have been guilty of this, been on a phone call
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  S2: or in a meeting, and something else has gotten my attention.
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  S3: Oh, no.
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  S2: So maybe I'm listening while also checking my email. Sure.
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  S2: Or listening while also fill in the blank. And if
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  S2: you want to say that you've never done this.
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  S3: Congratulations. Because most have. You're in the minority.
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  S2: But there's listening is a real skill. Right. And you're
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  S2: taught and to be to that active listening has a
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  S2: couple of couple of things. If you are. Jonathan, if
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  S2: you are telling me something. What are some things that
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  S2: I could do to communicate? I'm really listening to what
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  S2: you are saying.
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  S3: Well, you're going to make eye contact with me. Uh,
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  S3: you may nod your head as I'm talking verbally. Respond. Yeah.
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  S3: Ask questions to the story. I'm sharing things like that.
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  S2: Mhm. Reflective listening. I may say back to you. Oh, wow,
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  S2: I hear, I hear you're saying that such and such. Yeah.
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  S2: Reflecting back, that's really helpful, particularly if you are talking
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  S2: with someone who's going through a difficult time. You want
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  S2: to make sure that you are locked in and you
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  S2: are hearing what they're saying. And not just the words,
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  S2: but actually the meaning behind it.
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S2: Listening though is, is, is difficult because it takes intentionality.
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  S2: What happens when we hear words? Spiritually, we're listening to
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  S2: a sermon. We're hearing the words that our pastor is saying.
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  S2: Maybe we're even reading the Word of God. We are
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  S2: seeing the words on the page. So it's like we're
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  S2: hearing them, but we're not really listening. More coming up.
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  S1: Applying the word to life. God loves your wives so much.
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  S6: Men, if you're not living with your wife in an
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  S6: understanding way, your prayers are bouncing off the ceiling.
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  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S2: Jesus knew that there would be people who heard his words,
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  S2: but didn't really hear what he was saying.
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  S3: Very true.
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  S2: I'll take you to Matthew 13, starting with verse 13.
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  S2: It says, this is why I speak to them in parables,
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  S2: because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do
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  S2: not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case,
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  S2: the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, you will
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  S2: indeed hear, but never understand, and you will indeed see,
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  S2: but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull,
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  S2: and with their ears they can barely hear. And their
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  S2: eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes.
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  S2: And hear with their ears, and understand with their heart
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  S2: and turn. And I would heal them. But blessed are
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  S2: your eyes, for they see, and your ears for they hear.
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  S2: It is a blessing to be able to see and
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  S2: to hear and to perceive. And I'm not talking about
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  S2: the physical sense, although that in and of itself is
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  S2: a blessing too. But it's possible to have the gift
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  S2: of sight and the gift of hearing, but not really
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  S2: perceive totally.
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  S3: And it's true the opposite way. I mean, I think
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  S3: of when we were doing, uh, Moody Global Campus last
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  S3: week and Philip was in here and he was sharing
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  S3: about a brother who became blind. And when the word
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  S3: became available to him to listen to, he said, I
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  S3: can finally see again. And the, you know, it's a
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  S3: seeing of the heart that Jesus is talking about in
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  S3: the hearing of the heart, not of seeing and hearing
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  S3: of the eyes and ears.
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  S2: And so this you see this repeated often in the Gospels,
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  S2: this one little phrase that really emphasizes, are you really listening?
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  S2: Because I need you to hear what I'm saying. It's
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  S2: this one phrase he who has ears to hear, let
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  S2: him hear. Jesus says that pretty often, coming on the
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  S2: heels of some teaching, I'll give you an example out
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  S2: of Luke 14, verse 34 and 35. He says, salt
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  S2: is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how
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  S2: shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use
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  S2: either for the soil or for the manure pile. It
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  S2: is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let
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  S2: him hear.
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  S3: What do you think would have been the. The perception
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  S3: of people listening when they heard that. What do you
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  S3: think it would have made them do? Listen, listen. I
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  S3: better tune in. Yeah, because he's really telling me to
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  S3: pay attention here.
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  S2: Listen up. Yeah. This is important. Then we see it
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  S2: also this a similar phrase in revelation in the letters
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  S2: to the churches. Revelation two seven says, he who has
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  S2: an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to
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  S2: the churches. Again, emphasize if you can hear here, listen.
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  S2: Don't just allow the words to be noise that goes
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  S2: into your ears, in one ear and out the other. Remember,
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  S2: your parents used to say that 100%. Are you listening
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  S2: to what I'm saying, or is it just going in
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  S2: one ear and out the other? Yep. So maybe parents
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  S2: should start throwing this on as a point of emphasis.
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  S2: Marching through what the expectations are. We're going to get
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  S2: in the car. We're going to be driving for five hours.
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  S2: We will stop for a bathroom break once. I don't
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  S2: want you fighting in the back seat. I don't want
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  S2: you throwing stuff out the window. It's going to be
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  S2: a great trip. He who has ears to hear, let
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  S2: him hear.
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  S3: Yes.
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  S2: Listen to what I'm saying. Don't just hear me, but
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  S2: really listen.
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  S3: And I think it's so important that we do. And
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  S3: we don't talk about this with any sort of condemnation
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  S3: or judgment. Uh, this is something that is so easy
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  S3: for anyone to struggle with. Uh, but it is important
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  S3: that we talk about it because there are blessings and
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  S3: curses that come along with either listening to the Lord
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  S3: or not listening to the Lord. Uh, yeah. I think about, like,
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  S3: my alarm clock in the morning. I'm like, I have.
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  S3: So my intended purpose for my alarm clock is to
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  S3: I set two. Yep. So that I wake up to
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  S3: the first one. And in case I don't wake up
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  S3: in case, I just sleep right through it, I have
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  S3: a second one there that's supposed to go off. That's
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  S3: the intended purpose. The real purpose is I wake up
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  S3: to the first one. I could sleep a little longer.
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  S3: I shut it off and I sleep to the second one.
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  S3: And then sometimes I sit there a little longer, even
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  S3: after I do wake up and shut the alarms off
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  S3: the alarms, sending me a message. I have heard the alarms.
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  S3: I'm not listening to what the alarms telling me to do.
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  S3: And there there are consequences on my life. Sometimes if
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  S3: I'm rushed and I'm running in late to something and
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  S3: everything is affected because of how I didn't listen to
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  S3: my alarm even though I heard it.
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  S2: You heard the noise. It just didn't prompt the the
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  S2: response that was intended.
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  S3: Exactly. But when I do listen to my alarm, everything
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  S3: in my life and how I start my day is
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  S3: affected for the positive. Yeah. And so God wants us
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  S3: to do the very same thing. He's calling out to us.
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  S3: He's teaching us. He's showing us we need to do
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  S3: more than just hear the message. We have to respond
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  S3: to the call to action.
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  S2: James one verse 22, be doers of the word and
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  S2: not hearers only. Otherwise you are deceiving yourselves. This is
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  S2: a sobering thing, because to hear truth and not apply
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  S2: truth is deception.
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  S3: Yes.
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  S2: Oh boy.
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  S3: We trick ourselves into thinking that we're we're doing something
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  S3: or that we are something that we're not.
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  S2: And we know this to be true because of examples
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  S2: like you just shared. If you've worked with kids either
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  S2: as a parent or you've had kids under your care,
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  S2: you don't want them to just hear what you're saying.
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  S2: You need them to respond. Because if you say, don't
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  S2: touch that stove, it's hot. And they go, aha! And
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  S2: then proceed to touch the stove. Have they really heard
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  S2: you in in any meaningful way.
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  S3: Yeah. That's something we're working with is my daughter's just
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  S3: under two and a half, so she's still real little, but.
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  S2: She's hearing.
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  S3: She's hearing, but we're doing the kind of the discipline
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  S3: method thing of, you know, if, if she's really not
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  S3: listening to us, we, we say we're going to take
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  S3: a break. We move in the other room, one of
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  S3: us sits and we talk with her and we tell
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  S3: her about what needs to be different. And then sometimes
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  S3: she just goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she's like
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  S3: trying to look for things to play. And I say, no, Ellie,
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  S3: look at me. I'm telling you this. Do you understand me?
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  S3: And she says, yes, I understand. And I say, okay,
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  S3: now what we're going to go do is this, let's
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  S3: go do it. And so there's a sense of like,
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  S3: don't just hear the words that are coming out of
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  S3: my mouth, understand them. And now let's go do something
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  S3: about it.
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  S2: He who has ears to hear, she who has ears
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  S2: to hear, let her hear. I gotta try that one.
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  S2: If Jesus said it, I think we could say it too.
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  S2: But what a sweet reminder to be listeners. To be
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  S2: doers of the word, not just hearers. Man, I need
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  S2: that today.
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  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 12:01
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
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  S2: If you've spent any time around young children, they ask
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  S2: a lot of why questions. Sometimes it'll put you on
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  S2: the spot because maybe you haven't thought for a while
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  S2: about why the sky is blue, or why trees look
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  S2: like they do. And there's something about being around a
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  S2: young child that causes you to view the world around
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  S2: you with different eyes. Because as you grow older, you
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  S2: start to just kind of take for granted what's around you.
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  S2: And maybe you stop wondering a little bit. My guest
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  S2: this morning is going to talk about the beauty of
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  S2: even the ability to wonder. Gavin Matthews is the assistant
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  S2: director of Solace. They provide resources, training, and inspiration for
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  S2: sharing the good news of Jesus practically and persuasively. He
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  S2: co-authored the book. Have you ever wondered what is so
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  S2: distinctly human about our ability to even wonder, to ask
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  S2: those why questions? Gavin?
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  S7: Isn't that a great question in and of itself? There
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  S7: is something distinct about humans. I don't think that ants
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  S7: or elephants or aardvarks spend their days wandering about why
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  S7: we're here, or what the purpose of it all is.
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  S7: I think that's a very human thing to do, and
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  S7: I think it reflects something very deep, which has been
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  S7: sort of baked into our humanity. You know, the Bible
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  S7: says we're made in the image of God, and people
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  S7: have speculated about exactly what that means for thousands of years.
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  S7: But one of the things it means is that we
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  S7: have minds which respond to the stimulus around us. We think,
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  S7: we imagine, we feel. We don't just breathe and exist.
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  S7: We are more than just carbon based life forms. There's
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  S7: something more intriguing in this, this curious thing we call
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  S7: humanity going on. We want to know. I mean, why
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  S7: are we pushing out? One of my friends, our closest friends,
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  S7: actually has been involved in building the world's biggest solar
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  S7: telescope on the top of the mountain in Maui. In Hawaii. Wow.
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  S7: Why do we want to know about what's going on
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  S7: right out in the reaches of space? Why do we
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  S7: want to delve down to the bottom of the oceans
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  S7: and look at microbes and things? Why are we so intrigued?
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  S7: And I'm convinced it's because we're made in the image
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  S7: of a God who is full of knowledge and wisdom
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  S7: and creativity, and we just long to connect with him.
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  S7: And so we do that through this, this thing that
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  S7: we are intrigued with all his works and all his
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  S7: wonders throughout the whole of the cosmos. We're just not
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  S7: satisfied to be like a cow and munch grass and
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  S7: spend our days just passing on our genes merrily to
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  S7: the next generation and calling it job done. We're much
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  S7: more interesting than that. There's a whole other dimension to
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  S7: what it means to be human. We're so much more
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  S7: than just carbon based life forms. I think it's that
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  S7: imago dei, this in the image of God that gives
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  S7: us that spark, that makes us intrigued with the world
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  S7: around us.
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  S2: In the commissioning of this book, have you ever wondered
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  S2: a fantastic resource? What were some of the questions that
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  S2: sort of drove. Because there's limitless number of. Have you
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  S2: ever wondered questions that could be posed? How did you
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  S2: land on the ones that you did?
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  S7: I need to take a step back. And that my co-editor,
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  S7: Andy Banister, had written a book called How to Talk
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  S7: About Jesus without looking like an idiot. Yes. And it's
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  S7: a guide for Christians in sharing their faith. I think
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  S7: you've had Andy on, haven't you? Talk about the.
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  S2: Times.
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  S7: It's a great book because it's it's really funny as
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  S7: well as being really helpful book. And in it he
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  S7: develops tools for conversational evangelism, the ways for Christians to
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  S7: share their faith. And some of the questions in that
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  S7: book are what you might call defensive. So when someone
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  S7: comes at you with an objection to the Christian faith,
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  S7: some questions you can ask to develop those conversations. But
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  S7: the third question is very different. They were all, have
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  S7: you ever wondered questions? And they're really designed to intrigue
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  S7: people with spiritual matters who present as apathetic. You know,
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  S7: they might not be an angry atheist with lots of objections,
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  S7: but they might just be, oh, I don't know. You know,
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  S7: kind of. Maybe there's truth, maybe not, I don't know.
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  S7: And to invite them to think new thoughts. And he
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  S7: developed a chapter in the book called Have You Ever
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  S7: Wondered Questions and to invite people into this new space.
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  S7: And Andy and I were driving back from the far
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  S7: north of Scotland one night after doing some evangelism training
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  S7: in a little church miles away in the Highlands. And
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  S7: to be honest, Andy was looking a bit sleepy on
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  S7: the road on the way back. So in order to
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  S7: keep him alert, I said, Andy, how many have you
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  S7: ever wondered questions can we come up with? Oh wow.
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  S7: So we kind of played a game and I started
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  S7: to write them down on my phone and we started
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  S7: to say, have you ever wondered why the environment matters?
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  S7: Have you ever wondered why justice matters? Have you ever
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  S7: wondered why beauty moves us so much? Have you ever
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  S7: wondered if you're a good person? Have you ever wondered
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  S7: what God thinks of you? Have you ever wondered if
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  S7: you can really change? And all the questions started to
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  S7: tumble out of this conversation, and Andy was looking very
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  S7: tired by the time we got back to Perth. But
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  S7: we got back safely and in my phone. By the
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  S7: time we got to Perth We had a series. So
• 16:52
  S7: the next day I said to Andy, who can we
• 16:54
  S7: get to write this? This would make a brilliant series
• 16:56
  S7: for our website. So that's where I started to contact authors.
• 16:59
  S7: Put the whole thing together. And then we were contacted
• 17:02
  S7: by a publisher who said, we need something in this,
• 17:05
  S7: what he called pre evangelistic space and that is working
• 17:08
  S7: in the area, not where people are ready to repent
• 17:11
  S7: and believe the gospel of Jesus because they don't know
• 17:13
  S7: what repentance is, and they don't know what the gospel
• 17:16
  S7: of Jesus is, and they're not presenting as really interested
• 17:19
  S7: in the gospel of him, their people at the stage
• 17:22
  S7: before that. And so they wanted a pre evangelistic resource
• 17:26
  S7: to prime conversations that will lead people who are apathetic
• 17:30
  S7: right into gospel territory. So we commissioned the authors, and
• 17:34
  S7: we tried to land with people who are got some
• 17:37
  S7: knowledge or specialism in the area that they're writing in.
• 17:40
  S7: So for instance, the have you ever wondered why the
• 17:42
  S7: Environment Matters is written by a passionate environmentalist and environmental
• 17:46
  S7: scientist who is working in that area, but he wants
• 17:49
  S7: to bridge from people's passion to care for the earth,
• 17:52
  S7: which is a story that makes no sense in atheism
• 17:55
  S7: because it's come from nowhere, it's going from nowhere. And
• 17:57
  S7: as the sun expands, it's all going to burn up anyway,
• 17:59
  S7: so frankly, why bother? It's a very different story than
• 18:02
  S7: we have been entrusted something by God to whom we
• 18:06
  S7: are accountable. Now go and look after the earth. It's
• 18:08
  S7: a very different story. So it bridges from the concerns
• 18:11
  S7: people have and takes them on a journey towards gospel conversations.
• 18:15
  S7: That was the idea, and that was how it kind
• 18:17
  S7: of came about in the first place.
• 18:19
  S2: You know, it's awesome because I think we can all
• 18:20
  S2: think of people and maybe this is a descriptive of
• 18:24
  S2: us as well, that caring deeply about matters of justice
• 18:27
  S2: or the environment, or being a deep lover of beauty,
• 18:31
  S2: being able to appreciate the arts in a deep sense,
• 18:34
  S2: or wondering about math. You know, you have these great
• 18:38
  S2: minds who can make sense of numbers or wondering about
• 18:42
  S2: life's meaning. I mean, once you start to engage people
• 18:45
  S2: in these conversations, everybody is wondering about something, even if
• 18:49
  S2: it takes a little bit of digging. I'm curious about
• 18:52
  S2: the chapters that you've written. One of them. Have you
• 18:54
  S2: ever wondered why we love happy endings? Anyone who's ever
• 18:59
  S2: seen a good rom com or read the fairy tales,
• 19:03
  S2: we want to see things tied up in a neat bow. Every.
• 19:07
  S2: The good guy wins. The bad guy gets some form
• 19:11
  S2: of justice. Speak to that wonder question.
• 19:14
  S7: We need closure, don't we? That's why I think in
• 19:16
  S7: the book I mentioned the way that The Hunchback of
• 19:18
  S7: Notre Dame. The original story has a horrendous ending. You know,
• 19:21
  S7: Victor Hugo's ending to that story is gruesome and distressing.
• 19:25
  S7: So when Hollywood remade or Disney kind of remade the
• 19:28
  S7: cartoon version that my kids love, they said, well, we
• 19:30
  S7: can't land it. On that note, we have to have
• 19:32
  S7: a happy ending. We need to inject hope into people's lives.
• 19:36
  S7: And I think that speaks deeply into the story of
• 19:38
  S7: the whole world. You know, creation made good by God,
• 19:41
  S7: fallen into sin, fallen into catastrophe, and longing for a
• 19:45
  S7: happy ending, in fact, longing for its deliverer. You know,
• 19:49
  S7: think about Romans eight. You know, all creation groaning, waiting
• 19:53
  S7: for the sons of God to be revealed. This is
• 19:55
  S7: the reality of now. We're awaiting our deliverer. We're waiting
• 19:58
  S7: for Christ to come back. The whole nature is groaning
• 20:01
  S7: for its happy ending. So I think when stories spin
• 20:04
  S7: out towards a happy ending, they're speaking to something very,
• 20:07
  S7: very deep within us because we do know that we
• 20:09
  S7: have lost the hope that we are created for. You know,
• 20:12
  S7: the picture in the Bible of creation at the beginning
• 20:14
  S7: was of something not just good, but very, very good
• 20:16
  S7: when it came to humanity and the whole picture of humanity,
• 20:20
  S7: of people walking together in peace with each other, with
• 20:23
  S7: the environment and with God, then become shattered. And we're
• 20:26
  S7: living in the the midst of that shattering and that
• 20:30
  S7: aching for a happy ending. So I think these stories, like,
• 20:33
  S7: as you said, the rom coms and they always, you know,
• 20:35
  S7: the happy couple meet each other or they gaze at
• 20:37
  S7: each other across the room. It's lovely and beautiful. And
• 20:40
  S7: then something goes horribly wrong. And but you know that
• 20:43
  S7: in the last five minutes of the film, he's going
• 20:45
  S7: to catch her up before she gets on the plane.
• 20:47
  S7: And it's all going to be a happy ending. Lovely.
• 20:49
  S7: But that's because we are telling these stories in a
• 20:52
  S7: world that's longing for its happy ending. And there is
• 20:54
  S7: no other happy ending other than the Christ comes back
• 20:56
  S7: and fixes everything that's gone wrong and everything that's gone
• 21:00
  S7: wrong because of sin that he's atoned for on the
• 21:02
  S7: cross and will come back and make it the happy
• 21:05
  S7: ending that we're all longing for. So I think there's
• 21:07
  S7: a kind of a resonance between the happy endings we
• 21:09
  S7: like here and the grand narrative of the universe, which
• 21:14
  S7: is that we're waiting for a happy ending. We're waiting
• 21:16
  S7: for our deliverer to come back from heaven, you know,
• 21:18
  S7: for the sons of God to be revealed, for the
• 21:20
  S7: earth to be liberated from its bondage to decay is
• 21:23
  S7: the language in Romans eight. There's a there's a happy
• 21:26
  S7: ending that we need. Yeah. Which is in Christ. I
• 21:28
  S7: think that's what's going on and why we love those stories.
• 21:31
  S2: Totally. And I love a good hallmark movie myself. You
• 21:34
  S2: see the ending a mile away within the first five minutes.
• 21:37
  S2: You know who you know, the guy, the girl. You
• 21:39
  S2: know how it's going to end. But you watch it
• 21:41
  S2: because you love to see, because it causes you to
• 21:43
  S2: hope even for an hour and 45 minutes or however
• 21:46
  S2: the length of the movie. You touched on something I
• 21:48
  S2: want to go back to. Is that so many people
• 21:51
  S2: have lost their hope. Maybe they ask a wonder question,
• 21:55
  S2: what does this all mean? And they've landed on it
• 21:57
  S2: means nothing, I mean nothing. There is no happy ending
• 22:01
  S2: for me. It's just day after day. And so, so
• 22:04
  S2: many people especially. I mean, we see numbers of anxiety
• 22:07
  S2: and depression skyrocketing and so many people lack hope. The
• 22:11
  S2: wondering questions, how do they restore hope? There are not
• 22:15
  S2: easy answers for any of these questions. There's some complex
• 22:18
  S2: wrestling with the evil that we see in the world
• 22:21
  S2: that we juxtapose still with this hope that we have,
• 22:24
  S2: that one day we do get the happy ending, even
• 22:26
  S2: if it doesn't look like what most people would imagine.
• 22:29
  S2: Speak to the restoration of hope that's needed for today.
• 22:33
  S7: My friend who I mentioned before, who's building the telescope
• 22:36
  S7: on the top of the mountain in Hawaii. His wife
• 22:37
  S7: is a tapestry weaver, and I remember when they lived
• 22:40
  S7: in Edinburgh going into their house one day and this
• 22:42
  S7: enormous frame, and it just looked a complete mess until
• 22:45
  S7: she said, you're looking at the wrong side of the tapestry.
• 22:47
  S7: So turn it around and all the loose strings on
• 22:50
  S7: the back. But on the side behind where she was working,
• 22:52
  S7: a beautiful picture was starting to emerge. And the difference is,
• 22:55
  S7: if you're walking without Christ, all you see is the messy,
• 22:58
  S7: unfinished endings of life within this frame, within this world.
• 23:02
  S7: But if you're seeing it from the eternal perspective, because
• 23:04
  S7: you're walking through every day here with Christ, then you
• 23:07
  S7: start to see the picture that he's building. You know
• 23:09
  S7: what Paul talks about with our sufferings here, not being
• 23:12
  S7: worth comparing with the glory that there is to come. Yeah.
• 23:15
  S7: And that's what gives us hope. And I know so
• 23:17
  S7: many people who have walked through really distressing and intense
• 23:21
  S7: suffering here on earth, but what has kept them going
• 23:25
  S7: day by day isn't denying grief, isn't denying the horror
• 23:29
  S7: of death, isn't denying that death is an awful intrusion
• 23:32
  S7: into God's good world. But what's kept them going is
• 23:34
  S7: Christ walking with them through the daily life here, in
• 23:38
  S7: anticipation of the day when the tapestry will be turned
• 23:41
  S7: around and will see the glory of what he's been
• 23:43
  S7: weaving through our lives in all this mess. One of
• 23:46
  S7: the interesting things about the way that God reveals Himself
• 23:48
  S7: in Christ isn't that he just kind of waves a
• 23:52
  S7: magic wand and fixes everything, but that Christ actually steps
• 23:55
  S7: down into our mess. He is incarnated in flesh. He
• 23:59
  S7: walks amongst us. He bears our humanity. He joins us
• 24:02
  S7: here in the mess. And I think that's the secret, really,
• 24:06
  S7: to coping with the day by day is to be
• 24:07
  S7: joined by Christ in the mess, even as we wait
• 24:11
  S7: for him to come and fix things ultimately. And just
• 24:15
  S7: observing people in intense suffering. Over the last two years, particularly,
• 24:19
  S7: I've observed that those who've got their feet on that
• 24:22
  S7: kind of rock have a kind of resilience that doesn't
• 24:25
  S7: diminish the pain, that doesn't diminish the awfulness of death.
• 24:29
  S7: It means that they grieve with hope. It doesn't mean
• 24:32
  S7: they don't grieve, but they grieve with hope because they're
• 24:35
  S7: waiting patiently and faithfully for Christ to come back and
• 24:39
  S7: put things back together in the way they were originally
• 24:41
  S7: intended to be.
• 24:42
  S2: Yeah. Gavin Matthews, what a joy. I want to point
• 24:45
  S2: you to this resource that we've featured. Have you ever
• 24:47
  S2: wondered inviting you into the conversation? This will be a
• 24:50
  S2: good one to help build those conversations, those pre evangelistic conversations,
• 24:55
  S2: asking those wonder questions, just text wonder to 800 555 7898,
• 25:01
  S2: text wonder to 805 557898.
• 25:06
  S1: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
• 25:10
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 25:13
  S2: Well, long before I ever stepped foot into the doors
• 25:16
  S2: of Moody Radio and took on this job as a
• 25:19
  S2: morning radio host back in the day, I got my
• 25:23
  S2: start in television news. And let me give you a
• 25:26
  S2: little insight into what it's like working in a local newsroom.
• 25:31
  S2: This was a station and it was connected to CBS.
• 25:36
  S2: And so we every day were out covering whatever was
• 25:41
  S2: happening in the world. But here was the problem. Nobody
• 25:44
  S2: wants to cover the great things that are happening in
• 25:46
  S2: the world. The story that we needed each day in
• 25:49
  S2: order to have a lead story was almost always, I
• 25:52
  S2: would say, 99.9% of the time something that had gone
• 25:55
  S2: wrong that day a fire, a murder, an accident, government scandal,
• 26:02
  S2: conflict within the local school board, this person disagreeing with
• 26:05
  S2: this person and a steady diet of that. Over a
• 26:10
  S2: couple of years working in a newsroom, I started to
• 26:13
  S2: realize I didn't like what it was doing to me.
• 26:17
  S2: I did not like what it was doing to my
• 26:19
  S2: heart and to my soul. I want to bring in
• 26:22
  S2: a special guest, Max Lucado. He has been called America's
• 26:25
  S2: Pastor by Christianity. Today he has 150 million plus products
• 26:32
  S2: in print. He's the best selling inspirational author right now.
• 26:36
  S2: I reflect on my own days of working in a
• 26:39
  S2: newsroom and the constant cycle of bad news and the
• 26:43
  S2: desensitizing effect that it had on me, and the anxiety
• 26:48
  S2: inducing effect it had as I took in one bad
• 26:51
  S2: thing happening after another. When you see what the current
• 26:55
  S2: landscape and this was many, many years ago, but not
• 26:58
  S2: much has changed. When you see the landscape of what
• 27:01
  S2: we are being fed, a steady diet of, of war,
• 27:04
  S2: of plagues, of pandemics, of conflict, what do you see
• 27:09
  S2: and what do we need to be on guard against
• 27:11
  S2: as Christ's followers?
• 27:12
  S8: Your observation is spot on. Not only do we have
• 27:16
  S8: the challenges around us, but then we have the changes
• 27:20
  S8: within us. And sometimes those changes are the consequence of
• 27:24
  S8: the challenges. But we have one out of three Americans
• 27:28
  S8: battling to one degree or another. Depression. Anxiety is off
• 27:33
  S8: the charts, and most tragically, the suicide rate is the
• 27:37
  S8: highest that it's been since World War Two. We're battling
• 27:43
  S8: so many different things within us and around us. I
• 27:47
  S8: think the story of Elijah, which is the theme of
• 27:50
  S8: this new book, is so relevant because he too was outnumbered. Uh,
• 27:56
  S8: he was the only God follower, the only one who
• 27:59
  S8: feared God in Israel. Now keep in mind, these are
• 28:03
  S8: the children of Abraham. These are the descendants of Moses
• 28:07
  S8: and Joseph, and these are God's chosen people. But by
• 28:11
  S8: ninth century BC, they had wandered off the track and
• 28:15
  S8: were worshiping a false gods and even engaged in child
• 28:20
  S8: sacrifice and temple prostitution. It was a dark, dark season.
• 28:24
  S8: And so even though our days can feel desperate and dark, uh,
• 28:29
  S8: Elijah felt them even more. And that's why I think
• 28:32
  S8: his story is relevant to us today.
• 28:34
  S2: Yeah. Looking at Elijah's story and the book that we're
• 28:38
  S2: referencing just out this week, Unbreakable Courage, strong Faith in
• 28:41
  S2: an age of anxiety, chaos, and exhaustion. What were some
• 28:45
  S2: things that we see from Elijah's life that we can
• 28:49
  S2: certainly apply to the day that we're living in?
• 28:51
  S8: The boldness of Elijah was remarkable. He appears in Scripture
• 29:00
  S8: without any introduction, without any fanfare, no reference to his
• 29:04
  S8: hometown or his parents. He just appears in the throne
• 29:09
  S8: room of two of the most evil king and queen
• 29:12
  S8: in the history of Israel. And he just simply declares,
• 29:16
  S8: the Lord God of Israel lives, and there will be
• 29:19
  S8: a drought that will fall upon the land for seven years.
• 29:22
  S8: And that's it. And it was a no no protocol,
• 29:27
  S8: no political correctness. In my imagination, he's kind of raw.
• 29:31
  S8: He's hairy, he's sinewy, and he's extremely bold. And he
• 29:36
  S8: has this umbilical faith, this connection to God that causes
• 29:41
  S8: him to care only for what God cares about. And
• 29:45
  S8: that's what was needed to rescue Israel. I mean, the
• 29:48
  S8: people of Israel were off the tracks spiritually, and they
• 29:53
  S8: needed someone like a prophet, Elijah, to speak to them. Now,
• 29:58
  S8: lest we assume that he is an inspiration, but not
• 30:04
  S8: an example for us, that when the New Testament talks
• 30:07
  S8: about Elijah, the apostle James mentions he was a man
• 30:12
  S8: just like we are. As if to say he was
• 30:15
  S8: just a regular guy. But he had an amazing faith.
• 30:19
  S8: Today we need a deep, amazing faith. You know, courage
• 30:23
  S8: is not the absence of fear. Fear is everywhere and
• 30:27
  S8: we're deluged. As you so aptly pointed out by bad
• 30:31
  S8: news everywhere we turn. So fear is never going to
• 30:35
  S8: abandon us. But fear does not have to control us.
• 30:40
  S8: Elijah models what happens when a person does their best
• 30:44
  S8: to face their fears with faith.
• 30:48
  S2: You know, when you think about courage. Sometimes I get
• 30:52
  S2: concerned by things that we are tempted to call courage
• 30:57
  S2: that I'm not sure if that's what God had intended
• 31:00
  S2: and what I see a lot of times people taking, um,
• 31:04
  S2: political positions or, you know, you see a lot of
• 31:08
  S2: back and forth on pundits on these cable news programs
• 31:13
  S2: and on social media, uh, people taking positions that maybe
• 31:17
  S2: they say are an act of courage, but I'm just
• 31:21
  S2: not sure that that's what genuine courage is. Do you
• 31:25
  S2: get where I'm going with this? What do you say?
• 31:27
  S8: I would say we do banter about the word courage
• 31:31
  S8: for things that are very small. I've heard a, you know,
• 31:34
  S8: a football player catching a pass in the end zone.
• 31:37
  S8: And and the announcer says, oh, what a courageous catch. Yeah. Well,
• 31:41
  S8: come on. You know, I mean, let me tell you
• 31:44
  S8: what courage is. Courage is my friend George, who has
• 31:48
  S8: been a good friend of our church here in San
• 31:51
  S8: Antonio for 30 years. Uh, he's an architect, and he
• 31:54
  S8: designed our church building. And on two days ago, the
• 31:59
  S8: cancer that's chewing him up from the inside out. The
• 32:02
  S8: doctor told him his wife and his daughter. There's nothing
• 32:07
  S8: more we can do. And George's response was, and I quote,
• 32:11
  S8: he said, bad news. I'm dying. Good news. I'm dying.
• 32:18
  S2: MM.
• 32:19
  S8: Let's eat. That was his whole response.
• 32:22
  S2: Wow.
• 32:23
  S8: And that sounds a lot like the Apostle Paul. You know,
• 32:26
  S8: who said, I don't know if it's better for me
• 32:28
  S8: to die and be with the Lord or remain and
• 32:30
  S8: be with you. I would call that courage.
• 32:32
  S2: Yeah.
• 32:33
  S8: You know that staring death in the face, but doing
• 32:37
  S8: so with faith, with conviction. Again, Elijah models that I'd
• 32:42
  S8: have to point out. Ali. There were times he did not.
• 32:45
  S8: He was not a perfect man, right? And there were
• 32:47
  S8: times he was even expressing suicidal thoughts. And so his
• 32:52
  S8: challenges were every bit as severe as as yours or mine.
• 32:56
  S8: But what we admire about Elijah is he models how
• 32:59
  S8: to live this faith in a world that had so
• 33:03
  S8: little faith.
• 33:04
  S2: Yeah. You talk in the book both about resting in
• 33:08
  S2: prayer and wrestling in prayer. Mhm. What is that difference?
• 33:13
  S2: And how do we know when it's time for one
• 33:15
  S2: and not the other in prayer?
• 33:17
  S8: What a treasure that is. You know, just to spend
• 33:20
  S8: a few moments pondering the fact that we have a
• 33:23
  S8: Heavenly Father who loves us. We have a shepherd who
• 33:26
  S8: cares for us, and just receiving the comfort of the
• 33:29
  S8: Holy Spirit. And then there are those times in which
• 33:32
  S8: we're standing up and we're pacing the floor. Uh, we're
• 33:36
  S8: not whispering, we're shouting. We're calling out to the Lord.
• 33:41
  S8: We're exercising our spiritual authority. Now, prayer has always been
• 33:45
  S8: a bit of a mystery to me, Ali. I can't
• 33:48
  S8: get the plumber to call me back. Why do I
• 33:51
  S8: think God would would take heed to my thoughts? But
• 33:54
  S8: if I believe Scripture, then the prayers of a righteous
• 33:58
  S8: person avails much. Elijah models this. There was an occasion
• 34:03
  S8: in which the son of a friend of his died,
• 34:06
  S8: and he prayed not once, not twice, but three times.
• 34:10
  S8: And the sun came to life. He came back from
• 34:14
  S8: the dead. Now, there was no precedent for this, that
• 34:18
  S8: Elijah just believed that he could talk to God about
• 34:22
  S8: a catastrophe, and God would reverse the catastrophe. There was
• 34:27
  S8: a time God told him to pray for rain, and
• 34:30
  S8: he did not once, not twice, three, four, five, six,
• 34:33
  S8: seven times. He prayed seven times. And finally he saw
• 34:38
  S8: a cloud. The scripture says, the size of a man's
• 34:41
  S8: fist in the distance. And he took that as the
• 34:45
  S8: answer to prayer. So Elijah knew the power of persistent prayer.
• 34:50
  S8: I would imagine somebody listening who feels like they're overwhelmed
• 34:54
  S8: by their problems. And I'm sorry for your problems, but
• 34:57
  S8: I gotta remind you, as long as you have prayer,
• 35:01
  S8: then you have power with which to face your problem.
• 35:04
  S2: Yeah. And you know so much of what you're talking about.
• 35:07
  S2: It requires us to get away from the noise of
• 35:11
  S2: life and the distractions. We've got these devices that are
• 35:14
  S2: pinging us all throughout the day and the night, and
• 35:18
  S2: it feels like even that quiet or the wrestling prayer,
• 35:21
  S2: it feels like the space for that is harder than ever.
• 35:25
  S2: How important are the disciplines of silence and solitude to
• 35:29
  S2: even be able to connect with God, to receive the
• 35:32
  S2: ability to be courageous by his spirit?
• 35:35
  S8: Because the first thing that Elijah was his first assignment
• 35:40
  S8: after he confronted Ahab and Jezebel. His first assignment was
• 35:45
  S8: not a preaching tour, not a training of prophet school.
• 35:49
  S8: But his first assignment was isolation. God sent him into
• 35:53
  S8: a ravine, and in that ravine, Elijah lived for perhaps
• 36:00
  S8: as long as a year, and he was cared for
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  S8: by ravens, ravens who would bring him food, and he
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  S8: drank water out of the brook. It was a very simple, austere,
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  S8: isolated existence. It makes me think of of Moses, who
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  S8: spent 40 years in the wilderness before he was called
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  S8: to lead the children of Israel. Makes me think of David,
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  S8: who was anointed king, but sent back out to pasture
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  S8: before he fought Goliath. Makes me think of of Saul,
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  S8: who disappeared for many years into Damascus and into Arabia
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  S8: to ponder the vision that he had been given there.
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  S8: There is in the life of saints the seasons of
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  S8: silence in which God is equipping us, and often our
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  S8: preparation is in isolation. And so if somebody today is thinking,
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  S8: now I have a column of heart to write music.
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  S8: Have a column of heart to be a missionary. Have
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  S8: a column of heart to be a parent. But nothing
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  S8: is happening. It feels like we're stuck. Don't think that
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  S8: God is using this time to shape within you the
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  S8: character that you will need when he calls you into
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  S8: that next chapter of service.
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  S2: The book is called Unbreakable Courage Strong Faith in an
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  S2: Age of anxiety, chaos, and Exhaustion. Our guest this morning,
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  S2: author pastor Max Lucado. Thank you so much for your
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  S2: time this morning. If you want access to this resource
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  S2: and others, just text strong to 805 557898. Text that
• 37:35
  S2: one word strong 805 557898.