Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #563 Jason Flom with Fred Clay

Transcript

#563 Jason Flom with Fred Clay · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility and it's subject
0:03
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
0:08
Speaker 2: Eleven.
0:16
Speaker 1: And it hasn't.
0:17
Speaker 2: Been easy a hundred years. That'sad man.
0:21
Speaker 1: I'm a kid.
0:21
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know
0:25
Speaker 3: that was ah, that was real painful, man, No, because
0:29
Speaker 3: my life was discarded as if you know, like I
0:32
Speaker 3: was a piece of trash or something, you know, a
0:34
Speaker 3: hundred years and I had dreams I wanted to do
0:37
Speaker 3: things I wouldn't committing crimes.
0:39
Speaker 2: You know.
0:40
Speaker 3: I was a very good young man.
0:42
Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops
0:45
Speaker 4: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,
0:49
Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
0:52
Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
0:55
Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so
0:58
Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.
1:00
Speaker 1: They open it to sell door and I'll walk down
1:03
Speaker 1: STI and I actually walked down Stas to be outside.
1:08
Speaker 1: It felt very strange to be, like I said, to
1:11
Speaker 1: be walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought
1:14
Speaker 1: it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.
1:17
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This
1:30
Speaker 2: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have
1:34
Speaker 2: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even
1:39
Speaker 2: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to
1:41
Speaker 2: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned
1:45
Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years
1:48
Speaker 2: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, welcome to the show.
1:53
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, better on I appreciate it very much.
1:56
Speaker 2: I always say I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
1:59
Speaker 2: glad you're here. And I want to start off by
2:02
Speaker 2: apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and
2:05
Speaker 2: America and people and just there's nothing that can be said,
2:10
Speaker 2: but let me just put that out there for starters
2:14
Speaker 2: and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris Barrell is
2:19
Speaker 2: an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for
2:23
Speaker 2: Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does work on well,
2:29
Speaker 2: he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and
2:32
Speaker 2: as many other as well as many others. So Chris, welcome,
2:35
Speaker 2: Glad you're here.
2:35
Speaker 5: Thanks very much, glad to be here.
2:38
Speaker 2: Chris, how did you first come across this story? And
2:41
Speaker 2: why did it impact you so much that you wanted
2:43
Speaker 2: to do an article about it?
2:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for
2:46
Speaker 5: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases
2:52
Speaker 5: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,
2:57
Speaker 5: because we do know there's a fair amount of media
2:58
Speaker 5: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount
3:02
Speaker 5: of time for a crime that they that they didn't
3:05
Speaker 5: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot
3:07
Speaker 5: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I
3:10
Speaker 5: was there the day got out, as was a lot
3:11
Speaker 5: of other media. But the question came up, well, what
3:15
Speaker 5: is what is life really like? You know, once this
3:18
Speaker 5: kind of once the applause fades, what is what is
3:21
Speaker 5: what is a person's life really like? So initially Fred
3:24
Speaker 5: was not that keen on me proffering this idea of
3:28
Speaker 5: following him around at different points over the course of
3:31
Speaker 5: about a year, but I met with him on a
3:33
Speaker 5: couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so
3:37
Speaker 5: we just struck up this this intervals of trying to
3:41
Speaker 5: meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations,
3:45
Speaker 5: trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks, the
3:49
Speaker 5: basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do you
3:52
Speaker 5: find shelter, how do you? How do you feed yourself?
3:54
Speaker 5: And so for the first few months he didn't he
3:56
Speaker 5: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of
3:59
Speaker 5: money from from a go Fundme site and he had
4:03
Speaker 5: food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,
4:07
Speaker 5: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a
4:10
Speaker 5: shift and they'd be telling them, well, we've only got
4:12
Speaker 5: a couple hours work instead of a full shift. And
4:14
Speaker 5: he'd walk home through the snow in the street because
4:17
Speaker 5: people didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot
4:19
Speaker 5: of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until
4:24
Speaker 5: sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job
4:28
Speaker 5: precision grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really
4:34
Speaker 5: grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent
4:38
Speaker 5: in most cities in America is really high, and the
4:41
Speaker 5: most he could afford was basically a room and a basement.
4:46
Speaker 5: And he said at least once that that room kind
4:49
Speaker 5: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had
4:52
Speaker 5: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light
4:56
Speaker 5: coming into it and that was the best that his
4:59
Speaker 5: circumstance this can allow.
5:01
Speaker 2: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even
5:05
Speaker 2: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've
5:09
Speaker 2: told over seventy stories already. Uh and just and I've
5:13
Speaker 2: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm
5:17
Speaker 2: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought
5:20
Speaker 2: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,
5:25
Speaker 2: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old
5:29
Speaker 2: child really just scared out of your mind faced with
5:33
Speaker 2: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of
5:37
Speaker 2: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just
5:40
Speaker 2: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.
5:44
Speaker 2: You were living in a foster home at that time, right, Yes.
5:47
Speaker 1: I was living a foster home. I was placed in
5:49
Speaker 1: it by DYS. I have some juvenile cases and I
5:52
Speaker 1: got convicted too. I got sentenced to like to DYS
5:58
Speaker 1: and he sent me to Boys to Center and a
6:01
Speaker 1: state that a little while month from there to program
6:05
Speaker 1: State of Football six months, I believe, and they decided
6:09
Speaker 1: that I need to be in a fosseter home. So
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Speaker 1: I was in a fossil home at that time.
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Speaker 2: And you were not a big guy either. You were
6:17
Speaker 2: like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,
6:19
Speaker 2: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You
6:22
Speaker 2: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario like
6:26
Speaker 2: this is. No one's prepared for it. But let's go
6:29
Speaker 2: back to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean,
6:32
Speaker 2: how did this happen?
6:34
Speaker 1: Was?
6:34
Speaker 2: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of
6:37
Speaker 2: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give
6:41
Speaker 2: us a little background on that? Yeah?
6:43
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is. Fred
6:46
Speaker 5: was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen, charged
6:49
Speaker 5: with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy
6:52
Speaker 5: part of the story was that one of another cab
6:55
Speaker 5: driver who saw three young Africa American men get into
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Speaker 5: a cab, said he was able to id one of
7:03
Speaker 5: them another the second person he couldn't id, And the
7:07
Speaker 5: police used the practice they used back then of hypnotizing
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Speaker 5: a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned
7:14
Speaker 5: a lot like a videotape, and that you could put
7:17
Speaker 5: a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind to
7:20
Speaker 5: a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain would
7:23
Speaker 5: see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one
7:27
Speaker 5: of the pieces that led police to arrest and charge
7:32
Speaker 5: Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.
7:35
Speaker 2: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to
7:39
Speaker 2: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?
7:42
Speaker 2: Did you know these people?
7:43
Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in the
7:46
Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't
7:50
Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't
7:54
Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of
7:59
Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page
8:02
Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.
8:06
Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that
8:09
Speaker 1: cap and he thought he's the perpetrators get into the
8:15
Speaker 1: cap the previous night, and I guess he just went
8:19
Speaker 1: to the police station and tried to cooperate with the police.
8:24
Speaker 1: There was hypnosis involved. I think he was showing my
8:28
Speaker 1: picture a few times, like four or five, six times,
8:32
Speaker 1: and when they hypnotized them, instead of him actually placing it,
8:37
Speaker 1: you know, actually viewing the people the perpetrator at the
8:40
Speaker 1: scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot. Sort of
8:44
Speaker 1: my face from the mug shot was in his mind.
8:48
Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis
8:50
Speaker 2: is going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will
8:52
Speaker 2: make you see things you haven't seen before, but they
8:54
Speaker 2: will may not have any collection to reality. Right, that's
8:57
Speaker 2: the problem.
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Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything
9:00
Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five
9:03
Speaker 1: or six times, their face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.
9:07
Speaker 2: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know
9:09
Speaker 2: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the
9:13
Speaker 2: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to
9:16
Speaker 2: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start
9:18
Speaker 2: to go to that place.
9:19
Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened? He
9:22
Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.
9:25
Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how
9:27
Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.
9:29
Speaker 2: Was there was this robbery at night?
9:31
Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four o'clock.
9:33
Speaker 2: In the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, and
9:35
Speaker 2: this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we know
9:38
Speaker 2: how I mean, and we also know that the brain
9:40
Speaker 2: when you witness a violent crime, I wouldn't. Identification is
9:43
Speaker 2: notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts into
9:48
Speaker 2: the studio now and attacks one of us, and then
9:50
Speaker 2: they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as
9:52
Speaker 2: much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the
9:54
Speaker 2: correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same
9:57
Speaker 2: way that we will, which is a crazy and people
10:00
Speaker 2: listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven
10:02
Speaker 2: over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,
10:08
Speaker 2: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
10:10
Speaker 2: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,
10:13
Speaker 2: when you're either the victim or when your witness to
10:17
Speaker 2: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that
10:20
Speaker 2: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're
10:27
Speaker 2: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this
10:30
Speaker 2: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.
10:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.
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Speaker 5: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,
10:38
Speaker 5: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American
10:43
Speaker 5: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to
10:48
Speaker 5: or allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit
10:51
Speaker 5: south of the city in Roslindale. And then there was
10:55
Speaker 5: another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around
10:59
Speaker 5: how the police interacted with this witness, and this other
11:02
Speaker 5: witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out
11:05
Speaker 5: of a window of an apartment in the housing project.
11:09
Speaker 5: What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and
11:13
Speaker 5: trying to re engage with this case and prove that
11:16
Speaker 5: Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was
11:21
Speaker 5: I think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,
11:25
Speaker 5: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his
11:30
Speaker 5: family that if they testified against Fred that they would
11:35
Speaker 5: be moved out of this project housing project which was
11:38
Speaker 5: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.
11:42
Speaker 5: And again this witness was white.
11:45
Speaker 2: Wow, So you talk about coercion or you know, and
11:50
Speaker 2: isn't not a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is
11:52
Speaker 2: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who
11:57
Speaker 2: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.
12:00
Speaker 2: You go to prison for riving witness in America, right,
12:02
Speaker 2: But the government is able to offer the best bribe
12:06
Speaker 2: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was
12:08
Speaker 2: a new home, right, It's almost like a game show.
12:10
Speaker 2: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want
12:12
Speaker 2: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can
12:16
Speaker 2: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take
12:17
Speaker 2: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior
12:20
Speaker 2: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges
12:24
Speaker 2: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's
12:27
Speaker 2: it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there
12:28
Speaker 2: are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But
12:30
Speaker 2: what were you going to say? Fred?
12:34
Speaker 1: Also, the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened
12:38
Speaker 1: to us in their projects. This witness, I sort of
12:42
Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other
12:45
Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was
12:47
Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really
12:52
Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but
12:55
Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your
12:58
Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in
13:01
Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated,
13:06
Speaker 1: they're picking out a familiar face. So just because he
13:10
Speaker 1: was familiar with by face, he sort of just placed
13:12
Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact
13:14
Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he
13:16
Speaker 1: saw me at the scene of the crime.
13:19
Speaker 2: So we have a couple of factors here that are
13:21
Speaker 2: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,
13:25
Speaker 2: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,
13:31
Speaker 2: and then it gets worse. So you were were you
13:35
Speaker 2: at home when you were arrested? How did this all
13:37
Speaker 2: go down? And how long did you have to wait
13:39
Speaker 2: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a
13:41
Speaker 2: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks
13:44
Speaker 2: for us?
13:44
Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I
13:47
Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went. I was
13:51
Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I
13:56
Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.
14:00
Speaker 1: She claims I ran away, but I never really ran away.
14:03
Speaker 1: I just vanished from time to time and came back.
14:06
Speaker 1: But anyway, I showed up on November fifteen to her
14:10
Speaker 1: house and I didn't know that, but she had previously
14:14
Speaker 1: reported me for running. So when I showed up on
14:17
Speaker 1: November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay that night.
14:22
Speaker 1: But at the same time, she didn't want me to
14:26
Speaker 1: do the next morning. I had to leave the next morning.
14:29
Speaker 1: So the next morning came and she told me I
14:32
Speaker 1: had to leave because she reported me running. She didn't
14:34
Speaker 1: want the police at are out, so I left and
14:37
Speaker 1: I was on probation, so I went to the probation
14:39
Speaker 1: officer and sort of told her what was going on,
14:43
Speaker 1: and based on that, they sent me back to another
14:47
Speaker 1: facility that I was previously held at before, a juvenile facility,
14:53
Speaker 1: and I was there for a few football a little
14:55
Speaker 1: over a couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing
14:58
Speaker 1: Cozy Tutus came in one evening and they went up
15:01
Speaker 1: to the main desk to talk to the counsel of
15:04
Speaker 1: work there, and maybe about two minutes after that, they
15:07
Speaker 1: called my name and I went to the desk and
15:09
Speaker 1: they asked me my name. I told my name is
15:11
Speaker 1: Frederick Claim. They told me they needed to speak with me,
15:14
Speaker 1: so they took me to like a little room off
15:16
Speaker 1: to the side, and in that room they informed me
15:19
Speaker 1: that DA was arrested me for murder. So I really
15:23
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they
15:26
Speaker 1: came there and arrest me for it, and my attorney
15:30
Speaker 1: at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.
15:33
Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed
15:39
Speaker 1: about the murder.
15:40
Speaker 2: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm
15:43
Speaker 2: assuming that there was either new years two years wait. Wow,
15:46
Speaker 2: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.
15:49
Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial
15:52
Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.
15:53
Speaker 2: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right
15:56
Speaker 2: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very
15:59
Speaker 2: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't
16:01
Speaker 2: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,
16:05
Speaker 2: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical
16:09
Speaker 2: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years
16:11
Speaker 2: of waiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because
16:18
Speaker 2: it's always I think for our listeners and even for
16:21
Speaker 2: me an eye opener, to hear how these things go,
16:26
Speaker 2: especially in a case as serious as this one where
16:28
Speaker 2: you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you
16:31
Speaker 2: can remember about the trial, for instance, did you think
16:35
Speaker 2: if you can remember, and again, you were in prison
16:37
Speaker 2: for so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went
16:40
Speaker 2: to prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty
16:42
Speaker 2: eight years, which means you were in prison for almost
16:45
Speaker 2: two and a half times as long as you had
16:47
Speaker 2: been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen
16:50
Speaker 2: year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years,
16:52
Speaker 2: we're not even really sentient beings. We're kind of just
16:55
Speaker 2: stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right,
16:58
Speaker 2: and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us
17:00
Speaker 2: a book and hug us or if we're lucky. So
17:03
Speaker 2: you know, for you, your life experience was so brief
17:06
Speaker 2: before you entered the system, and you had already been
17:08
Speaker 2: in and out of the system. So here you are
17:12
Speaker 2: at trial, and did you, if you can recall, did
17:18
Speaker 2: you feel like when the jury went out that you
17:21
Speaker 2: were going to be convicted or did you still have
17:24
Speaker 2: hope that you the justice would be done.
17:27
Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure there was a fifty fifty chance
17:30
Speaker 1: that I was going to get convicted. I thought, well,
17:32
Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so
17:36
Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that
17:39
Speaker 1: actually proved that I was innocent and have present my otheribi,
17:44
Speaker 1: I thought I was I might have a chance of
17:48
Speaker 1: being found not guilty. So I was I was hoping
17:51
Speaker 1: that I was going to be found not guilty. But
17:54
Speaker 1: at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,
17:57
Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could
17:59
Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was
18:03
Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty, but at the same time,
18:07
Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So
18:12
Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.
18:14
Speaker 2: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,
18:17
Speaker 2: were they white or black?
18:20
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,
18:22
Speaker 1: and one of them was black. But the one was
18:25
Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.
18:28
Speaker 1: But the two name was that yes, they was white.
18:31
Speaker 2: And the reason I raised that question is because we
18:35
Speaker 2: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that
18:40
Speaker 2: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so
18:47
Speaker 2: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone
18:51
Speaker 2: of their own race. I think there's a lot of
18:53
Speaker 2: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all
18:55
Speaker 2: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening
18:58
Speaker 2: right now, as I always say on this always a
19:00
Speaker 2: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a
19:03
Speaker 2: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there
19:07
Speaker 2: was no evidence against you, so it was only the
19:09
Speaker 2: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,
19:13
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying
19:15
Speaker 2: against a black person, a Hispanic person testify against a
19:19
Speaker 2: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.
19:23
Speaker 2: And so your case is an important one to highlight
19:27
Speaker 2: that particular factor, because again, the reason why I do
19:31
Speaker 2: this show, Fred is because I want to help to
19:33
Speaker 2: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,
19:35
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you do.
19:37
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact
19:39
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one, the cross racial identification issue,
19:43
Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact.
19:44
Speaker 2: Now, right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So
19:48
Speaker 2: the jury comes back and it had to be the
19:52
Speaker 2: worst feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to
19:56
Speaker 2: life in prison, which is again a bizarre Yeah.
20:00
Speaker 1: A natural life, not just in life, a natural life.
20:03
Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but
20:05
Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with a
20:08
Speaker 1: chance no parole, which means like a you go to
20:12
Speaker 1: spend invest in your life in prison, you go and
20:14
Speaker 1: die in prison.
20:15
Speaker 2: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,
20:18
Speaker 2: what kind of a system do we have where we
20:22
Speaker 2: can sent in someone who was really a child and
20:24
Speaker 2: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison.
20:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it.
20:30
Speaker 5: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,
20:35
Speaker 5: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo
20:39
Speaker 5: some of that. So it did, at a very much
20:41
Speaker 5: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're
20:45
Speaker 5: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of
20:50
Speaker 5: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone
20:54
Speaker 5: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises
20:58
Speaker 5: a lot of really serious questions, but then to make
21:03
Speaker 5: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to
21:08
Speaker 5: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.
21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, a judge telling you, a
21:18
Speaker 1: sixteen year old kid, that you are incapable of changing,
21:21
Speaker 1: so therefore you need to spend the rest of your
21:23
Speaker 1: life in adults prison. You know, and often think about that.
21:29
Speaker 1: And they took me out of a bad situation and
21:32
Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a
21:36
Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking
21:39
Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was
21:41
Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end
21:44
Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have
21:49
Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we
21:52
Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.
22:00
Speaker 2: And when you went to prison, this was you know,
22:05
Speaker 2: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a
22:07
Speaker 2: very violent place and you were in amongst people who
22:11
Speaker 2: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here
22:15
Speaker 2: you are like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did
22:20
Speaker 2: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly
22:24
Speaker 2: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy
22:29
Speaker 2: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?
22:32
Speaker 1: Well, personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A
22:35
Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence
22:39
Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just
22:42
Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way
22:46
Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something cheap,
22:51
Speaker 1: it to yourself. Don't talk to corrections officers. Try to
22:56
Speaker 1: stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to use
23:00
Speaker 1: that time to benefit me as a person, to change
23:03
Speaker 1: things about myself that I did not like, to sort
23:07
Speaker 1: of use that time to work on me as a
23:11
Speaker 1: human being. And they also let me. They also told
23:14
Speaker 1: me I had to figure out how to do the
23:17
Speaker 1: time and not let the time do me. And it
23:20
Speaker 1: took me quite a while to understand that. So, like
23:24
Speaker 1: what you mean, due to time and not let the
23:26
Speaker 1: time do me. So basically what they was telling me,
23:28
Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to
23:31
Speaker 1: use just bad experience and focus on the things that
23:35
Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things
23:37
Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about
23:41
Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a
23:44
Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I
23:48
Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, And it was
23:50
Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who
23:53
Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also
23:57
Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have
24:01
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,
24:05
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with
24:09
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives,
24:15
Speaker 1: you know.
24:17
Speaker 2: And then there was a sort of a hero emerged.
24:21
Speaker 2: If you could call it that. From this situation, a
24:23
Speaker 2: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out
24:26
Speaker 2: of this right and introduced you to a very unlikely
24:30
Speaker 2: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong
24:34
Speaker 2: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And
24:37
Speaker 2: can you talk about that?
24:38
Speaker 1: Oh much?
24:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So
24:42
Speaker 2: can you talk about that a little bit?
24:44
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Picket was as an old gentleman I think
24:47
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him
24:50
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years,
24:52
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit
24:56
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking the King
25:00
Speaker 1: he had an accident. He used to do cariding works
25:02
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so he fell off the roof
25:04
Speaker 1: and he used to walk around with a game. So
25:07
Speaker 1: h Anyway, I used to work and if I was
25:11
Speaker 1: in Bay State Prison at this time, and I was
25:13
Speaker 1: working downstairs on the first floor in the day room,
25:16
Speaker 1: and he lived on the first floor. And he was
25:18
Speaker 1: down there cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I
25:22
Speaker 1: was I was down there doing my job and everything,
25:25
Speaker 1: and he was. So we started talking about visits and
25:28
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And he asked me, do I have
25:31
Speaker 1: anybody that you know, family members and friends that visit me?
25:35
Speaker 1: And I told him, uh, not really, I had my
25:38
Speaker 1: great aunt. She visited me like every two years, three
25:41
Speaker 1: years a year, whenever she can find time to do it.
25:45
Speaker 1: So then he asked me if I was if I
25:48
Speaker 1: wanted somebody to visit me, like from a church and
25:50
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and I said, sure, why not. I
25:53
Speaker 1: grew up in the opportunity to meet somebody from church
25:55
Speaker 1: and just have a friend to come visit me. So
25:59
Speaker 1: he put me in touch with prison ministry. I think
26:03
Speaker 1: it was called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to fill
26:06
Speaker 1: out some forms and stuff like that, and I filled
26:09
Speaker 1: out the forms and he sent it in and I'm
26:12
Speaker 1: not quite sure how long after that then I met
26:16
Speaker 1: Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and I
26:21
Speaker 1: was back in I think that was like in ninety seven,
26:23
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, And once he came to
26:27
Speaker 1: Bay State to visit me. We so our friendship developed
26:33
Speaker 1: and got stronger and stronger, and the more he visited me,
26:36
Speaker 1: the more I started talking about my case and me
26:39
Speaker 1: as a person and things I like and dislike and
26:43
Speaker 1: I just take this interest. And so he helped me
26:48
Speaker 1: somewhat get out of prison.
26:50
Speaker 2: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if
26:53
Speaker 2: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,
26:58
Speaker 2: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends
27:02
Speaker 2: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people
27:05
Speaker 2: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying
27:08
Speaker 2: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,
27:13
Speaker 2: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of
27:17
Speaker 2: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If
27:20
Speaker 2: I was writing a movie about your story, I would
27:22
Speaker 2: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up
27:26
Speaker 2: some sort of a sort of a very square looking
27:28
Speaker 2: white guy, right, sort of comes in out of nowhere.
27:32
Speaker 2: What was your reaction when you met this guy?
27:34
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,
27:37
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,
27:43
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I
27:49
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,
27:51
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in
27:53
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me take me out
27:56
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't
27:59
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of
28:03
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.
28:05
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something
28:08
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my
28:10
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, and
28:16
Speaker 1: in many other ways after that to be ezact.
28:19
Speaker 2: And how important was that relationship to you?
28:23
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do
28:27
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in
28:31
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So
28:36
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.
28:41
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became
28:44
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.
28:48
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life
28:52
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.
28:55
Speaker 1: He's still live my life right now.
28:58
Speaker 2: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,
29:01
Speaker 2: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble
29:05
Speaker 2: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing
29:09
Speaker 2: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life
29:12
Speaker 2: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all that.
29:18
Speaker 2: It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.
29:21
Speaker 2: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just
29:26
Speaker 2: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.
29:28
Speaker 2: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,
29:30
Speaker 2: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.
29:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of
29:38
Speaker 5: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to
29:41
Speaker 5: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with
29:45
Speaker 5: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm
29:49
Speaker 5: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as
29:51
Speaker 5: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of
29:54
Speaker 5: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about
29:58
Speaker 5: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.
30:01
Speaker 5: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his
30:05
Speaker 5: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,
30:08
Speaker 5: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with
30:10
Speaker 5: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I
30:13
Speaker 5: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Doran
30:19
Speaker 5: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people
30:24
Speaker 5: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently
30:31
Speaker 5: during the year, like every few months, they would drive
30:33
Speaker 5: down and and go through. It's not easy to get
30:36
Speaker 5: into a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and
30:38
Speaker 5: get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear
30:42
Speaker 5: exactly the right clothing or they turn you away, and
30:46
Speaker 5: you know they again they brought their little kids in
30:50
Speaker 5: to kind of hang out friend and sit there and
30:52
Speaker 5: play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship that
30:57
Speaker 5: was related to me really kind of me away.
31:00
Speaker 2: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and
31:03
Speaker 2: now all of a sudden he has sort of an
31:05
Speaker 2: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long
31:08
Speaker 2: drive and they would come every couple of months. And
31:13
Speaker 2: there's one more quote, and I want to get back
31:14
Speaker 2: to the story because again this really touched me and
31:16
Speaker 2: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going
31:18
Speaker 2: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd
31:24
Speaker 2: all pile back in the car when our visit was
31:26
Speaker 2: over and it was just dead silence in the car.
31:29
Speaker 2: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh, this is
31:31
Speaker 2: from Jackie Dibble. Let me say we start again, and
31:34
Speaker 2: missus Dibble. Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back
31:38
Speaker 2: in the car when our visit was over and it
31:40
Speaker 2: was just dead silence in the car. Because that's where
31:42
Speaker 2: it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under
31:46
Speaker 2: the barbed wire. We get to go home, and he doesn't,
31:50
Speaker 2: and it was just nobody would say anything on the
31:53
Speaker 2: way home and end quote. And I've had that feeling
31:57
Speaker 2: so many times now visiting people in prison and who
32:00
Speaker 2: I know are innocent, and then when I leave and
32:05
Speaker 2: that door slams behind and you can't take them with you.
32:09
Speaker 2: It's a horrible feeling. It's it's a sick feeling, actually,
32:12
Speaker 2: And Chris is nodding his head because he knows, and
32:17
Speaker 2: you know, it does drive me and I think all
32:21
Speaker 2: of us every day to try to do more to
32:23
Speaker 2: help people like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once
32:28
Speaker 2: you've experienced that. And I brought four people with me
32:31
Speaker 2: up to Sing Sing this weekend where we met many
32:35
Speaker 2: of the men who are stuck there, some of whom
32:39
Speaker 2: are innocent, some are not. But you know, I would
32:43
Speaker 2: say that ninety percent of the people that we met
32:45
Speaker 2: there don't belong there. You know, they've served their time,
32:48
Speaker 2: they made a mistake. I'm of the Brian Stevenson school.
32:52
Speaker 2: He's one of my heroes, and you know, he said,
32:56
Speaker 2: I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they've
32:58
Speaker 2: ever done. You know, I think in our system we
33:01
Speaker 2: overincarcerate to such an extreme degree, we over punish. The
33:06
Speaker 2: institutions that we have that are called correctional institutions are
33:09
Speaker 2: not by and large, and all of it needs to change.
33:12
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred
33:14
Speaker 2: to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, and
33:17
Speaker 2: you too, Chris, So Fred tell us how this situation changed.
33:22
Speaker 2: Because you were sentenced to life in prison, you had
33:25
Speaker 2: no hope to get out. You found this inner strength,
33:28
Speaker 2: this grace, this courage that always mystifies me and amazes
33:32
Speaker 2: me and makes me, you know, draws me two people
33:35
Speaker 2: like yourself because I get so much out of just
33:39
Speaker 2: talking to you and spending time. And so how did
33:46
Speaker 2: you ultimately? I mean, we know how you survived because
33:49
Speaker 2: you explain that, But how did you get out? Because
33:52
Speaker 2: you're here now and that's a fantastic thing, and I know,
33:55
Speaker 2: and I want to talk about the struggle of being
33:57
Speaker 2: out as Well's what I call the second punishment. But
34:00
Speaker 2: how did that? Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd
34:02
Speaker 2: you get out?
34:03
Speaker 1: Well? I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa
34:07
Speaker 1: Cavanaugh from the CPCs innocent program. She's my attorney, she
34:12
Speaker 1: was my attorney on my pill We drafted and critique
34:19
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.
34:24
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late
34:30
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between
34:37
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug
34:49
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I
34:55
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that
35:00
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also
35:06
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I will say, late December twenty thirteen,
35:11
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and
35:16
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to
35:20
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that
35:24
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at
35:28
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking
35:32
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Rule thirty emotion, but I
35:35
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended
35:42
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I
35:48
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that I ended up
35:53
Speaker 1: getting presented my case. The parole board, stating that I
35:58
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for
36:01
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,
36:05
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested
36:08
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,
36:12
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case
36:15
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.
36:17
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,
36:21
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.
36:24
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit
36:27
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same time,
36:30
Speaker 1: I was letting them know that prison so you I
36:34
Speaker 1: mean by be being in prison, I was not the
36:36
Speaker 1: same person I was when I first went to prison.
36:40
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.
36:42
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was
36:45
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically
36:52
Speaker 1: I got up. I was going I was set to
36:54
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get
36:57
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelfth, but August twelfth was on
37:02
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was
37:06
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite
37:10
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is
37:14
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released
37:17
Speaker 1: our parole.
37:20
Speaker 2: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things
37:23
Speaker 2: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the
37:25
Speaker 2: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,
37:29
Speaker 2: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things
37:30
Speaker 2: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite
37:33
Speaker 2: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was
37:36
Speaker 2: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite
37:39
Speaker 2: were the most respected people in America at that time,
37:42
Speaker 2: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So
37:46
Speaker 2: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh
37:50
Speaker 2: air after spending a longer time than most of the
37:56
Speaker 2: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,
37:59
Speaker 2: I mean two people in the studio here who haven't
38:01
Speaker 2: been alive that long thirty eight years.
38:04
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,
38:08
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and
38:14
Speaker 1: their family, and Victim Izario he was there. I hugged him.
38:20
Speaker 1: And once I did that, I started talking to the
38:22
Speaker 1: media sa. That was the first thing I did start
38:24
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.
38:29
Speaker 1: But to answer your question what it was like, it
38:32
Speaker 1: was felt very strange to be walking without outside of prison,
38:39
Speaker 1: without no shackles on my feet. That felt very strange.
38:44
Speaker 1: Every time I left prison, no matter to go to
38:46
Speaker 1: the hospital or whatever, to court, whatever, they always had
38:50
Speaker 1: shackles on your feet. And once they actually said that
38:57
Speaker 1: you're free to go, and they put me in the
39:00
Speaker 1: in the in the like the whole itself for a
39:02
Speaker 1: little while, for like an hour to finalize everything. So
39:06
Speaker 1: once everything was finalized and they opened it, uh the
39:11
Speaker 1: cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked
39:15
Speaker 1: downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange to be,
39:20
Speaker 1: like I said, to be walking without thrown shackles on
39:22
Speaker 1: my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again,
39:25
Speaker 1: it wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming.
39:29
Speaker 1: It was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, and
39:36
Speaker 1: I was like in shocked to some degree. So it
39:40
Speaker 1: was it was a combination of all those things.
39:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,
39:55
Speaker 2: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a
39:57
Speaker 2: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea
40:04
Speaker 2: that you know, everyone sees on the on the news,
40:08
Speaker 2: the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming
40:12
Speaker 2: out and there's all this joy and you have if
40:15
Speaker 2: if you're fortunate enough like you were, to have some
40:17
Speaker 2: friends and family around and there's news media and there's
40:20
Speaker 2: cameras and maybe the sun is shining. But there's another
40:26
Speaker 2: side to that too, right, I mean, you come out
40:29
Speaker 2: and you get nothing like most of the people. And
40:33
Speaker 2: this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been
40:36
Speaker 2: doing this work and anyone I talk to that's not awhere.
40:40
Speaker 2: You know, when I meet somebody new and I'm talking
40:41
Speaker 2: about decision because I talk about it everywhere, the first
40:44
Speaker 2: thing they want to know is does the exonery you
40:47
Speaker 2: get paid? Like, just tell me they get money, And
40:50
Speaker 2: I have to tell them that in most cases no,
40:53
Speaker 2: and even in the cases when they do, it takes
40:56
Speaker 2: an unconscionably long time, years and years. This is something
41:00
Speaker 2: that the Interests Project has been deeply involved with. Recently,
41:04
Speaker 2: we just passed the compensation statute in Kansas, so it's
41:06
Speaker 2: a thirty first state actually have compensation statues. There's still
41:09
Speaker 2: nineteen states that have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred,
41:15
Speaker 2: coming out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone
41:19
Speaker 2: in as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying
41:23
Speaker 2: to rebuild your life. I want to focus for a
41:25
Speaker 2: minute on those challenges, which I don't think get the
41:28
Speaker 2: type of attention that they deserve. And I think we
41:31
Speaker 2: as a society owe you and every man and woman
41:34
Speaker 2: that has been through this type of ordeal, we owe
41:38
Speaker 2: you more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe
41:41
Speaker 2: you a debt. And I think that as soon as
41:44
Speaker 2: you get out that should start to be getting repaid.
41:46
Speaker 2: But that's not the way it works, and your case
41:49
Speaker 2: is a very strong example of that. So can you
41:53
Speaker 2: talk about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any
41:56
Speaker 2: money yet, right well.
41:59
Speaker 1: My attorneys working on that right now. So it's still
42:03
Speaker 1: to be remained, to be still being rocked on.
42:07
Speaker 2: And how how long have you been out?
42:09
Speaker 1: Not all the year now, so it's been August eighth,
42:13
Speaker 1: so it's been.
42:15
Speaker 5: Good over year, fifteen to sixteen months.
42:18
Speaker 1: Fifteen months much like that?
42:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.
42:22
Speaker 5: I mean, this was this was this was the focus
42:24
Speaker 5: of my reporting for the last year was to kind
42:27
Speaker 5: of answer that question, what's life like when you get
42:30
Speaker 5: out of prison? His his his, Fred's murder conviction was vacated.
42:35
Speaker 5: And you know, my editor has suggested, why do we
42:39
Speaker 5: see what life's like in the first thirty days? And
42:42
Speaker 5: that turned into what are we?
42:43
Speaker 2: Uh?
42:44
Speaker 5: Why don't I check in with Fred from time to
42:47
Speaker 5: time over the course of a year, and and Fred
42:50
Speaker 5: can kind of fill in a lot of this stuff,
42:52
Speaker 5: but that a lot of it was, you know, what
42:54
Speaker 5: what do you do to survive? You need you need housing,
42:57
Speaker 5: you need shelter, and you need some income to provide
43:00
Speaker 5: that shelter and food. Just the base bear basics of survival,
43:04
Speaker 5: and that was what you know, Fred and I would
43:08
Speaker 5: kind of meet up and he would very graciously let
43:10
Speaker 5: me tag along with him as he talked to people
43:14
Speaker 5: about filling out job applications and trying to work on
43:18
Speaker 5: a resume, and watched him move from one apartment to
43:21
Speaker 5: another apartment, and I think, you know, maybe Fred, you
43:25
Speaker 5: talk a little bit about what those experiences like.
43:27
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been
43:34
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison for I long. Obviously,
43:38
Speaker 1: technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed to the
43:41
Speaker 1: point where it's all new to me. I all often
43:45
Speaker 1: make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again and
43:48
Speaker 1: I have to learn everything all over again, including technology.
43:52
Speaker 1: So and even how do you fill out job applications now?
43:55
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the
43:58
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to
44:01
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,
44:04
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning
44:09
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know
44:15
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that
44:17
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating
44:21
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at
44:27
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually
44:30
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.
44:34
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in
44:37
Speaker 1: prison that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.
44:48
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.
44:52
Speaker 2: Oh what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now.
44:55
Speaker 1: Fred, I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.
44:58
Speaker 2: So that's right by Boston, right.
45:02
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston. But I wouldn't
45:05
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distances, but it is by.
45:09
Speaker 5: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
45:11
Speaker 2: Okay.
45:12
Speaker 1: Well wow. And when you don't drive, that's another thing.
45:17
Speaker 1: I really I haven't really started driving yet. And when
45:21
Speaker 1: you when you don't know how to drive, you're very limited.
45:26
Speaker 1: So I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and
45:29
Speaker 1: low and that's been kind of challenging. The public transportation
45:32
Speaker 1: here is not that great. It's shuts down at seven
45:35
Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening, and that's been an issue that
45:39
Speaker 1: I still struggle with today. So I need to learn
45:44
Speaker 1: how to drive. In order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,
45:50
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.
45:52
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been
45:56
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the
46:01
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action,
46:04
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.
46:07
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right timing. I just need to
46:09
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's
46:12
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me to figure out what's important,
46:15
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a
46:20
Speaker 1: big issue.
46:21
Speaker 2: And I can tell just from the way you know
46:24
Speaker 2: you are and the way that you've dealt with this
46:26
Speaker 2: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre
46:31
Speaker 2: reason I know actually would have crumbled under the weight
46:34
Speaker 2: of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going to
46:42
Speaker 2: be successful, but I think all of us just need
46:44
Speaker 2: a little boost every once in a while. So I'm
46:46
Speaker 2: happy to say that that's something I'm gonna be able
46:49
Speaker 2: to to provide. So I do want to I want
46:55
Speaker 2: to ask you also, what if you can think of it,
46:59
Speaker 2: what's been your happiest moment since you got out. It's
47:03
Speaker 2: interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right now
47:06
Speaker 2: of you with the with the dibbles, with Dorin and Jackie.
47:11
Speaker 2: It's really sort of a funny picture. I mean, you
47:13
Speaker 2: have this giant smile on your face and the glasses
47:17
Speaker 2: on and they, you know, they're obviously smiling too, but
47:21
Speaker 2: I mean they're really white, these people are. You know,
47:25
Speaker 2: It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph because it's
47:31
Speaker 2: just such an unusual, uh you know, combination of different backgrounds.
47:38
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of humanity in that right, And
47:41
Speaker 2: there's a lot of beauty in it. There's a lot
47:43
Speaker 2: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the
47:46
Speaker 2: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been
47:49
Speaker 2: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been
47:53
Speaker 2: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since
47:57
Speaker 2: you got out.
47:58
Speaker 1: Well, a few visionly my mother's grave. That was very happy.
48:05
Speaker 1: But I would say right now, the skydiving.
48:10
Speaker 2: Who you went skydiving?
48:14
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice.
48:16
Speaker 2: Wow.
48:17
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some
48:20
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up
48:23
Speaker 1: passing away in prison often. You know, we often talked
48:27
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH
48:32
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to
48:36
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun. You know,
48:37
Speaker 1: it looked like fun, and I looked like the people
48:40
Speaker 1: was enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was
48:43
Speaker 1: sort of like dedicating that moment to them because they
48:46
Speaker 1: sort of helped me change who I was as a person.
48:49
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case
48:52
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I
48:58
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them
49:02
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect
49:05
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I
49:09
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider
49:11
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment
49:18
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the
49:21
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a
49:24
Speaker 1: lot of exorninary people, people that was in my somewhat
49:28
Speaker 1: in my situation. We all had our individual cases that
49:32
Speaker 1: end up that we end up in prison for, but
49:35
Speaker 1: we all was innocent, and so it was kind of
49:39
Speaker 1: special to be with them that way. I felt, you know,
49:42
Speaker 1: that I was surrounded by people who actually knew what
49:45
Speaker 1: I was going through, and they didn't have no problem
49:49
Speaker 1: sharing what they was going through, what they went through
49:53
Speaker 1: in prison, and what they're dealing with now out here
49:55
Speaker 1: that you be shortage to share our experience and share
49:59
Speaker 1: their knowledge and help you each other. So that was
50:01
Speaker 1: kind of special. And also when I jump out the
50:06
Speaker 1: plane a second time, it's sort of reminded me of life,
50:11
Speaker 1: Like when you jump out the plane, there is no
50:13
Speaker 1: turning back. You came to say, well, I changed my mind,
50:16
Speaker 1: I want to go back. Once you jump out the plane,
50:19
Speaker 1: you and the elements, and so you got to face
50:24
Speaker 1: whatever there whatever fear you have, whatever there is, you
50:28
Speaker 1: got to face that. And it sort of reminds me
50:30
Speaker 1: about my life right now. Whatever it is in life
50:33
Speaker 1: that I'm uncomfortable with I have fear about, I have
50:37
Speaker 1: to try to face it and try to do the
50:39
Speaker 1: best I can. So to answer your question, the skydivingd
50:44
Speaker 1: was the most important thing to me.
50:47
Speaker 2: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very
50:52
Speaker 2: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,
50:55
Speaker 2: if you can jump out of a plane, you can
50:59
Speaker 2: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a
51:03
Speaker 2: deal right here in front of however many one hundred
51:06
Speaker 2: thousand people listening to this show, if you'll take your
51:08
Speaker 2: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So
51:13
Speaker 2: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure
51:17
Speaker 2: you can drive it. But if you can do it,
51:19
Speaker 2: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then
51:21
Speaker 2: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to
51:23
Speaker 2: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump
51:26
Speaker 2: out of a plane, I'll get on the car with
51:28
Speaker 2: you behind a wheel, no.
51:29
Speaker 1: Problem, okay, okay, okay.
51:32
Speaker 2: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.
51:34
Speaker 2: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, So there you go.
51:37
Speaker 2: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.
51:42
Speaker 2: And I am going to put you.
51:45
Speaker 1: To say something. It'll take one witnesses to get someone convicted,
51:49
Speaker 1: never mind one hundred thousand.
51:50
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition
51:54
Speaker 2: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of
51:58
Speaker 2: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,
52:00
Speaker 2: which is that at the end of the show, which
52:03
Speaker 2: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,
52:09
Speaker 2: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your
52:14
Speaker 2: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking
52:20
Speaker 2: you now. And then also at the end of the show,
52:24
Speaker 2: the featured part is where I get to stop talking
52:28
Speaker 2: and do all the listening. And how this works is
52:32
Speaker 2: I just turned the microphone over to you for any
52:35
Speaker 2: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,
52:40
Speaker 2: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,
52:46
Speaker 2: anything any last words.
52:47
Speaker 5: Well as always like, it's really fascinating for me to
52:52
Speaker 5: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a
52:56
Speaker 5: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him
53:00
Speaker 5: of work in a place and have editors that saw
53:03
Speaker 5: how important that was to do it. And it's again,
53:09
Speaker 5: I think Fred just went through something really awful and
53:14
Speaker 5: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And
53:19
Speaker 5: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support
53:22
Speaker 5: to him that he did because again he's able to
53:25
Speaker 5: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense
53:28
Speaker 5: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back
53:32
Speaker 5: to what it was like talking with him over these
53:34
Speaker 5: last many months. So happy to be here again.
53:38
Speaker 2: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction,
53:42
Speaker 2: and now over to you Fred for your last words
53:46
Speaker 2: and thoughts.
53:47
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak
53:51
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank christ Barell
53:55
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but
54:00
Speaker 1: to come to me in the beginning when I first
54:03
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow
54:08
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras
54:12
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did not,
54:16
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was
54:20
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and
54:24
Speaker 1: at the same time it brought me out of my
54:26
Speaker 1: shell so to speak, too, And I want to say
54:30
Speaker 1: that people sometimes ask me about why am I not
54:36
Speaker 1: bitter about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely
54:42
Speaker 1: upset about what happened to me. But at the same time,
54:45
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was
54:49
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me
54:51
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am a right
54:54
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person
54:58
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
55:02
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the
55:07
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of
55:11
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for
55:14
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I
55:19
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys, Lisa Cavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and
55:24
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emmanuel Howard. I want to
55:28
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where
55:31
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too. The Debil's Fred smiles.
55:36
Speaker 1: These so many people, so many people help me. I
55:41
Speaker 1: won't thank everybody for that.
55:43
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I just took me a minute to collect myself.
55:47
Speaker 2: But well, once again, you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction
55:53
Speaker 2: today's episode featuring investigative journalists Chris Barrell and Fred Play,
55:59
Speaker 2: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder
56:02
Speaker 2: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on
56:05
Speaker 2: the show. And I look forward to to taking a
56:11
Speaker 2: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,
56:16
Speaker 2: I hope with YouTube guys, and maybe we'll go and
56:19
Speaker 2: pick up the dibbles along the way. So and that's
56:23
Speaker 2: a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks again,
56:27
Speaker 2: and we'll keep the conversation moving.
56:30
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
56:33
Speaker 6: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
56:48
Speaker 6: Wherever you get your podcasts.
56:49
Speaker 2: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
56:52
Speaker 2: Enesis Project and I really hope you'll join me in
56:55
Speaker 2: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
56:59
Speaker 2: wrongful convey Go to inisonsproject dot org to learn how
57:03
Speaker 2: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
57:05
Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wortis. The music in
57:09
Speaker 2: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
57:12
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
57:16
Speaker 2: and on Facebook at brown Ful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction
57:20
Speaker 2: with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good
57:22
Speaker 2: Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one