Latest / Graymalkin Lane the podcast / the Trial of Adrian Toomes! Featuring Hussein Rashid, Joe Jones, Mike Rossi, Josh Bruckner, and Justin Wilder!

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the Trial of Adrian Toomes! Featuring Hussein Rashid, Joe Jones, Mike Rossi, Josh Bruckner, and Justin Wilder! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Graemealkin lane podcast where queer friends and allies gather to review and discuss the original X-Men comics in continuity order, and once a month we take a deep academic nerdy nerdy dive into a Marvel character.
• 0:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Now I a lot myself a couple of slots per year where it's just one of my favorites.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: We did this with The Wasp and like last year I did like Hellcat and Moon Dragon.
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of this stuff I'm doing is like very relevant to the X-Men.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: The character we're choosing today is one of my all-time favorite villains.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's so fun.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's Adrian Thoom's the Vulture.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: The theme over on the Patreon this month, we are calling Winged Wonders.
• 0:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: They are all winged characters.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: My friend Mike is here.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to be doing Bird Brain together, everyone.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: So stay tuned for that mess of it episode.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: I am thrilled to have my friends here to talk about this crazy character.
• 0:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to have a great time today.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: In the first appearance of Spider-Man, we suffer the tragic loss of his dear, uncle Ben.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Even as we constantly worry about the more matronly, Aunt May, and her wheat cakes, as Spider-Man has to save her from one health scare after another.
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Spidey's most consistent arch nemesis back then was Jay Jonah Jameson, the surly and bossy editor of The Daily Bugle, another old man who fought in World War II, if you recall.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: His first Spider-Man's first superfoil in the comics is the chameleon, and an amazing Spider-Man number two, he faces not one, but two very old men.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: One is Phineas Mason, the Tinkerer, the elderly inventor who creates deadly technology in his basement, and the other is Adrian Tumes, the Vulture.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: So we have Spider vs. chameleon, and Spider vs. Vulture, but
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: But really, it's about young 60s kid, nerd, misfit, like not being understood by authority.
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's fighting all the older generation, the most okay, boomer, stuff we've ever seen in comics.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the Vulture takes the major tone of that if we don't count Aunt May and J.J. Josephus who are part of that triptych as well.
• 2:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: So we feast personally, Vulture, and number two, it's May 1963.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: And for context, the angel of the X-Men is going to debut in a couple of months after this.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: So this makes Vulture Marvel's first really prominent winged character.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, there were people in World War II such as the Red Raven.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Every battle between Spidey and the Vulture is full of Spider-Man cracking old or bald bald jokes.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the Vulture just fucking charging at him, screaming at him to shut up and get off his damn lawn.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: And when you consider the target audience was young baby boomer white boys, this is hilarious.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: But the Vulture is also Spider-Man's first costume super villain.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's going to be thousands more to follow after this.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: So ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the trial of 80 Adrienne Tumes, one of my all-time favorite Marvel villains who has a bigger story and legacy that you may realize.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: I am excited to welcome the majority of some of my very favorite friends.
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll introduce you by your name.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you'll tell us your pronouns and what is it that you love most about Adrienne Tumes, let me out the first welcome Justin Wilder back to the show.
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin, it's just never a trial without you here, buddy.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's delightful.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's so much fun.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, everyone.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just in he hem pronouns from the Xwave podcast and a great mouth and new regular here.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yeah, of course I knew the Vulture.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm wearing Spider-Man shirts.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Spider-Man is my favorite guy.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that obviously puts me against the Vulture often times throughout my life.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love his vampire energy.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love his I
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: admire.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was the question.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: I admire his confidence to aggressively be himself.
• 3:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like he has drunk grandpa energy, but with an evil supervillain mustache, always twirling.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's equal parts old men and yells at cloud, but also industrialists who just try to get that bag.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: favorite stories is almost entirely in the film and TV room.
• 3:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I loved the animated series and that's where I've got the footer, like compliment of what he can do, and then really enjoyed Spider-Man Home Cummings
• 4:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: adaptation of it because it made it work for that world and work for the logistics of who he is, right?
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like motivations that the combo with the tinker, they're both these guys creating these high tech contraptions to run the lower level criminal underground, it was delightful.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Here for it, let's talk about this winged dirt bag.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Realization, I had just moments before we were recording.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: Michael Keaton played the vulture in the Spider-Man films, and then later went on to do Birdman, which is a crazy thing to realize in context with his trial.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that really, that really was like, oh, it was like a big realization moment for me.
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let me also welcome Hussein Rashid back to the show.
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Hussein, it's been far too long, my friend.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It has been too long.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who's saying Rashid, he him from New York, uh, Lenape land, uh, pleasure pleasure to be back on.
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, although when you did say it's not a trial without Justin, I thought you were being a bit of a massacist, you know, we don't suffer without Justin.
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it's it's it's it's also a trial with Justin.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's also a trial and it is always great to be on with Justin.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Although I do seek therapy often after every trial with them.
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Adrian Tooms, the Vulture.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I knew him.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a big Spider-Man fan.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you've got somebody on the opposite of this picture I knew him.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always thought he's a bit dorky, but actually reading this this run that I'm on.
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, he's kind of cool and interesting Like I love the fact that he starts out as a radio shakener and then like just basically soups himself up Is anybody here old enough to know radio shakness signs me?
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, okay.
• 5:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you I just had to check.
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just realized I'm talking to people looking me the blank looks
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but you know, it's just tickering the radio shack.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's, it's like technological noise.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm here for it.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I love it.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me welcome Josh Brookner back to the show and on your very first trial.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's great to see you, my friend.
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, yeah, it's great to be here.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: The trials are so much fun.
• 5:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm happy to be part of it.
• 5:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, he and pronouns, and uh, I definitely knew the Vulture, but that's because when I was a kid, I had that big, uh, encyclopedia of Spider-Man, which is what I learned about him and his backstory, a lot of his villains.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And even then, as a kid, I liked the Vulture because I like ridiculous, old man characters, whether they be normal or super power or otherwise, um, I just thought at the concept of this old bald guy, um, dressing himself up like a bird in a skin-type
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: hysterical and he still is to this day.
• 6:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: He is a lot of fun.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me welcome Joe Jones to the show as well.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: It also a Joe's first trial.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
• 6:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great to be here for the trials.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've listened to all the other ones and they were all gray and a good fun time.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm happy to be a part of it.
• 6:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when I was growing up,
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The two superheroes that I kind of attached myself to were Spider-Man and Batman, so my introduction to the ultra was definitely in the cartoon, which was kind of confusing to me because he was an old guy and then he was a young guy and then you go read the comics and he's an old guy.
• 6:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, so when are they going to get to the him like stealing the youth power and then like that comes much later.
• 7:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I was excited to read that part of that comic run, because it was like, Oh, that's my childhood memory of the Vulture is he's a guy who steals youth somehow, which never really made sense to me, because I'm like he's a balcher, but he can steal youth didn't really make sense to me.
• 7:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, one thing I admire about.
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adrian tombs is his tenacity.
• 7:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: He has his refusal where despite his advanced age, he's not going to let it slow him down.
• 7:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he always goes after what he wants, whether it's you know, a cache of precious jewels or killing them menace spider man or getting revenge or you know, it's like he's very determined.
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like,
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: no matter what the situation is he's going to go at it like full force.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and like I really appreciated the story also with with Aunt May after Nathan's death because it was kind of like seen a different side of him.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like finally we're seeing him actually sort of feel some kind of remorse or regret for his actions rather than just kind of being like unapologetic about his viciousness I guess.
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Lastly, let me welcome my dear friend, Mike Rossi, two-grey milk and lane also for his first trial.
• 8:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: We have 50% virgins here, everyone.
• 8:09
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, hey, thanks for that.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for that little introduction.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: My name's Mike Rossi.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: He him pronouns bringing the most virginal of all to the show.
• 8:17
  [UNKNOWN]: Great.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_05]: This isn't not an adjective.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: I have been able to use him quite a while.
• 8:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: So thank you for that.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: I think my favorite thing about the Vulture is his resemblance to Mr. Burns from the Simpsons or vice versa.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess Vulture came first.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_05]: My familiarity with him, like my new friends and colleagues here has been more or less the animated series than the Marvel movie.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: Some Spider-Man comments growing up this trial gave me the opportunity to dive a little bit deeper into him.
• 8:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: But one thing I always loved about him from, yeah, from my,
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: Early experiences in the cartoon was just how much she was like Mr. Burns and how they're kind of like the same kind of dude into completely different universes.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, old man very visually similar to one another all about sort of the greed and the money sort of one dimensional until you have that issue or that movie that dies a little bit deeper into the background kind of thing flashes them out a little bit more which is something that, you know, the original Spider-Man animated series didn't really do a whole lot of fight recall prickly.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I just, I love that.
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: I can sort of just picture Mr. Burns in a Spider-Man on that, doing the things that Vulture is doing.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: The main difference being, Mr. Burns is always just one vertebrae away from like cracking in half.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the Vulture, the Vulture is some tough shit, man.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like this guy smashed his shit up.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: OK, in the wild, the Vulture is not a mindless feeder, but a patient opportunist.
• 9:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: circling high, conserving energy and choosing its moment to descend on the dead or dying.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: It does not waste effort on the strong, it studies weakness, then commits with precision, tearing efficiently through flesh and leaving behind a stark architecture of bone.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And yes, I wrote that myself because it makes me think of this villain when I describe the animal this way.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture feeds quickly, often in competition, jossling and spreading its wings to assert dominance over other birds, defending its claim with hisses and sudden lunges.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: That same cold opportunism defines Adrian Thooms in the Spider-Man stories.
• 10:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: He too prays not on equals, but on the vulnerable, targeting the elderly, the distracted, the unguarded, swooping in from above with calculated cruelty.
• 10:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like his avian counterpart, he's defined by efficiency and survival.
• 10:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: He takes what he needs, strips values from his victims, and leaves behind only what cannot be used.
• 10:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Even his aerial vantage mirrors the birds circling patience.
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: And when challenged, he lashes out defensively, more concerned with maintaining dominance than honor.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: In both forms, the Vulture is less a brute predator than a strategist of decay, an entity that thrives in the margins of weakness,
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I hope with that paragraph, I made you love ancient tombs just a little bit.
• 11:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian tombs looks like a vulture.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: His conical head is drawn super embellished at times, stretching out his pointy bald head and his pointy witch chin almost in the form of like a crescent moon shape at times, even as the beak of his long nose stands out.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's drawn at all kinds of fight poses and flight poses, assoring across the sky with his feet under him, swooping and soaring at the ground, perched on a gargoyle in the night in the night sky.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian tombs designed this flight suit himself.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sleek, aerodynamic with textured feathery wings, but he also designed the Electoral Magnetic anti-gravaton genet generator that he wears on his back, frequently giving him a hunchback appearance, especially in his early stories, and his very Vulturey looks.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: The pack gives him vast super strength and near invulnerability so he can fly at 95 miles per hour and imagine that kind of speed then crashing into any type of wall or building and the flyer being okay afterwards.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's like a sleek bullet version of the juggernaut in this way when you get the height and the speed.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Though he's quite vulnerable when the generator becomes compromised.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: He is at times use the generator to amplify him to his strength to unsafe degrees.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture often uses upgrades and accessories.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: He loves a gun, a plasma pistol, a stack of grenades.
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: And recently, he kind of went more archangel with like firing projectile feathers out.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's different versions of this, and we'll talk about the vampirism in a minute.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Joe, what are your thoughts on Adrian tombs comparison two volatures in nature?
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's like you said, you know, I think they were very smart to draw him in a way that resembles a volature so that even when you see him outside of the costume, it's very clear.
• 12:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's the volature because he looks like a volature.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we were talking in the chat a little bit about how like
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Spider-Man comes up against all of these animal theme villains, like the scorpion, the rhino, and so it just seems like that was kind of their pattern of like, okay, what new, you know, animal can we create in Vulture was one of the first and, you know, I don't know if Vultures are natural predators of spiders, but there is something really interesting there about pairing a spider themed character with a Vulture themed character.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a certain aerial quality to Spider-Man.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the webs and the kicks and the swinging.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: So to have a villain in the air makes it really fun in that way.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike, what are your thoughts on the Vultures visual?
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: I sent a lot of daily images over the last few months to everybody.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: We've seen this character in a lot of hoses and forms.
• 13:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: What are your thoughts on how artists draw him?
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: And what makes a battle between him and Spider-Man so visually fun?
• 13:33
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think just kind of echoing like Joe sings, sort of the visual resemblance to just kind of animal, but just the stylization, even when different artists are drawing him, you always know when it's the culture, you know, the beak of a nose and the lung chin, and you can pick him out of a lineup.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like there's no way, if you see even just a silhouette of the culture against, you know, 10 other characters in any comic, you're gonna be able to sort of pick him out, each in every time.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that is really great and important for media like comments right is to be able to identify a character even just by their silhouette.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think as far as that goes, he's probably one of the most sort of successful in that regard with just like his profile or whatnot.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a fun contrast right between him and Spider-Man sort of in every page every panel, like there's a little bit of a meanness fighting does throw in his his verbal punches commenting on the age and old man and ball the in what month.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like, sure I get he's a villain, but that's kind of mean, but he is he is definitely hitting all of those, you know, key points to the character that yeah, that are essentially there and visible on every patient panel Justin the Vulture versus Warren Worthington the angel thoughts just as angel sure I mean you could can you could contrast.
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, like, Arc Angel is a different piece.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I always thought that Angel's little soft.
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Angel's evading and punching and like, yeah, her aerial dodge dive did right at a dodge.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Vulture, I think, you know, he's not.
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Menacing, but he still means to take you down.
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like with another winged guy with especially some of the upgrades that he sees over time, I think he's got it, but if Warren Worthington is Angel of Death, Archangel Flushet, shooting that he's got it, he's got it.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: He has to.
• 15:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the Vulture is all ego and self-preservation above all other traits.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: While he can be loyal to those he's chosen, particularly his family.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: His shitty as a father and grandfather he is, will get there.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: His thoughts and actions are constantly about seizing opportunities for himself.
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes he'll dramatically suffer from guilt, but he's forever about his own wellness.
• 15:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm making him an abject narcissist with a very strong anti-social streak.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a therapist in my day job, everyone.
• 15:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: His signature move when robbing, zoom in, take the shit, get away.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: But sometimes he can get cruel.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: He will kidnap children, me, endaging civilians as he flies around the city, threatening to drop them.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's signature move when he's killing someone is just to drop them from a very high height and let them splat on the ground.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: He does this repeatedly in his career.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's got some interesting scruples.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: One time he formed a child army.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk about that as
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: During one caper, the Vulture ended up responsible for the death of Nathan Lubensky, the love of May Parker at the time.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: And later when the Vulture realized that he himself was dying of cancer, he committed crimes in order to force May to forgive him, claiming that he had remorse, but really only worried about his own immortal soul.
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: When his granddaughter Starling, Tiana Tumes, who is the girlfriend of Miles Morales, everyone, cut Vulture out of his life because she had learned he was a murderer.
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't feel sad instead he blamed Spider-Man and went after him hard for like exposing his secrets.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Orcas put Tumes in charge of turning mutants into hounds, yeah,
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's a real story.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: They gave him a technoorganic upgrade for a while and he became director of culture in the Cracola era.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: He seized the opportunity because mutants had kept resurrection to themselves and he was pissed.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: He wanted to have the ability to resurrect himself.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's always an obsession with youth and legacy for this character.
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: He has lived in cave layers with literally decorated taxidermied creatures around him and like a vulture on a little, what do they call this like a little parent stand?
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: He keeps vultures as pets in these layers sometimes in cages when he was dying of cancer.
• 17:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: everything to stay alive or go out big or make sure he was remembered.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: But then we also have him in his saline era where he gets, we'll talk about it.
• 17:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: But he gets turned into like a young guy who has to keep sucking the youth out of people in order to keep himself 30 years old.
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: But he got all his hair back.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Vulture has a major flair for the dramatic as well.
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: He loves a sleek fashion upgrade.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's known for green.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: You can find him in a red and black often.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, Josh, I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of your favorite Joe.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, excuse me, favorite Vulture costumes or looks.
• 18:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question because I think he's most strongly associated with that look he's had since 1964 where it's just the green jumpsuit and the white furry rough around the neck.
• 18:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's classic at works and the furry rough thing like one it's great because it makes him look more like a vulture and too.
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a pretty bold fashion statement that he's still a clung onto.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like they did this old ball man being like, yes, I want my neck to be extremely comfortable and like look dramatic.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: The only other look that
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: jumps to mine right away is the one he had in the the MCU Spider-Man movie where it was all tech stuff, which I thought was a fantastic way to sort of modernize that look and make him look much more dangerous.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: They gave him goggles and these giant talons.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Normally, Vulture doesn't have his own set of weapons, so I think giving him giant imposing talons on his feet was a fantastic idea.
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Anything to make him look more visually, Vulture like is good.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: Joe, do you have preference between young Joe, excuse me, young Vulture or old Vulture?
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: And did you have any favorite looks or costumes?
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that my preference is the older because there is something about this old guy, it was like an octogenary and flying through the air, robbing jewels, you know, throwing people to their death from the sky, fighting with a teenager, you know,
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that also is what kind of separates him is because he really is like the oldest villain that's fireman fights in both sense of like his introduction, you know, how long is he stuck around and, you know, the advanced age of the character.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there is like a stain power there.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's something about it where he's able to stick around for so long, you know, and, you know, refuse to kind of like settle down, live like a quiet life in a retirement village.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like there we have an arc where he does that, but he still is like, I got to go back and do crime
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do kind of like the director of vulture costume because I like the techno organic upgrade.
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that gave him a little bit more of an edge.
• 19:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do I have to say that?
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, he's very scary.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but yeah, I think I do kind of like I have a preference more to the classic costume because like Josh said, it's kind of timeless and iconic.
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear your thoughts.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you'd like to expand a little on the youth versus the elderly kind of even these comics for this character,
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is actually something that I kept coming back to because we keep talking about him as old.
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I made it, and again, I'm not as familiar with the character.
• 20:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So somebody knows, like, definitively when they talk about his age.
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I actually had a hard time getting a sense of how old he was like, yeah, he's somewhere between 52 and 95, but you're never quite know.
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: He never quite know.
• 20:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Jay Jones and Jamison in the 60s is probably in his mid 40s, but we keep talking about them like he's really old and he's not.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and it may is drawn really old, but it's like she's actually probably not like the crypts keep her back then.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly, but she's probably not that old, just based on how Uncle Ben was when he died.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like I had a really, really art that doesn't mean I mean obviously this guy's obsessed with money and youth, like he is an early model in sell, right?
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, there's, and as I say that, not in full while that we're going to find out about all this illegitimate children.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, he's, you know, he, he's looks maxing in the 60s and I feel like that's something, you know, we've got to take seriously, but I like the youth old, but it's used from Parker's perspective from Peter Parker's perspective right who's like, I'm the cool kid.
• 21:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know it all, everybody's older than me and stupid and slow.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think we take it like that it reads a lot better than an actual youth old.
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's kept him more than 20 years.
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought about writing about this in the trial, but there's such a theme from like, rebel without a cause on where is that, that's the James Dean film, right?
• 21:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's this like youth, we're telling stories from a youth.
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Did now as we like see the world through the kids eyes, which continues into things like to kill a mockingbird, or even by by birdy, oddly, but there's like a whole section of films where it's the the youth beach party kind of energy, and then there's the old man back at home, you gotta fight against, I don't know, it really interesting to me.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I love that.
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think Rubble's not a cause is a great reference, but I've got to ask you now.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you choose two books or two references that specifically had birds in the title?
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: See, I'm paying attention man.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's funny.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, Adrian's origins are fairly simple.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I love that his name is Adrian tombs.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: It makes me happy.
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, do we have any casting for this?
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Who would you cast as this guy?
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: And if anyone answers anything that Burgess Meredith, you're wrong.
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Does anyone over Burgess Meredith?
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like the trainer from Rocky.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: He was also like the penguin in the old Batman 60s show.
• 22:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's probably the most famous for is the penguin.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: At least that's my only association.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love him.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: he's amazing.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I was going to say you'll burn her.
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: You'll burn her's interesting.
• 22:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think we have to cast in 1963 for this guy though, right?
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like Adrian's origins are fairly simple and they're pieced together over the decades of appearances and never quite out of clear timeline.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: His parents died when he was young, he was raised by his brother Marcus, who later became paralyzed in a motorcycle accident, which left Adrian to take care of him.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: He was always a talented student and inventor, and tombs went into business with his best friend Gregory Bestman in the small firm Bestman and tombs, and it's always hard for me not to read these old relationships as queer.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's giving us the like puppet master or high evolutionary conversations on my show if those ring a bell.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Then Adrian designs a harness.
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: But before he could sell the harness or market it, he learned that best men was imbezzling from the company and then best men took over the company.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture then built his supervillain costume, robbed best men and launched into his life of crime.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Stories about his family are infrequent, but he has at least three children.
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: His son Frankie is the father of Tiana tombs, or Starling, uh, who Frankie abandoned.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think we've ever seen Frankie on panel.
• 23:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian's daughter Valeria later became a corrupt shield agent.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: She's from that weird limited series.
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: The identity disc that has saber toothed it and juggernaut.
• 23:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's got at least one more son who married a woman named Ramona, and she had another of his grandkids never named.
• 24:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian was once married to a woman named Cheryl Tumes, but she turned him into the government and it's crazy that no one has ever made his ex attack him like dressed as like a buzzard or something.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that would be amazing.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture does not play well with others, but he will team up when it benefits him.
• 24:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Once he was very determined to make the owl his best friend weirdly because of the stories, and he's also a frequent member of the Sinister 6 and whatever form we see it in.
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Superior 6, the Savage 6, the Sinister 16, the Sinister 12, and more.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Those are all real versions of this character.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin, do you have any thoughts on Vulture's relationships?
• 24:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Who's he connected to in the villain world?
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's kind of isolated.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: So many thoughts.
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's interesting because he does his own thing, but especially in the readings that I did, we had insight onto the relationships that he's had and especially the impression that he had on Otto Octavius.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought that that was just a really sweet and humanizing moment.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: These two, you know, I think Otto brilliance known for his brilliance.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Adrian has selective brilliance, like he's just really good at bird stuff.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's just really good at making him look and fight like a bird and super net up.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: And uh, had a lot of bad shakes because I think, you know, his relationships when you get through the origin and his history, a lot of them weigh him down and a lot of them make them the villain that he becomes, which I think is part of why he kind of lost his path and it's just
• 25:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Whenever he's fighting Spidey on his own, he's pretty effective, but whenever he's with the sinister six or like in a group, he becomes almost entirely ineffective.
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he always takes a back seat in those stories.
• 25:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Joe, do you have thoughts on Vulture and Spider-Man's relationship?
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, as
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: they touch on earlier, you know, they kind of go way, way, way back.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have this relationship where, you know, they just, they were, they repeat over and over.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The story usually kind of goes the same way where, like, Bolcher commits a crime.
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Spider-Man shows a Bolcher gets pissed.
• 26:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I'm going to kill you, Spider-Man.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Spider-Man is like, okay, so I'm going to knock you out and then I'll see you in like, you know, I don't know, six months.
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sine time scale.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how long because Vulture always goes to prison and then breaks out for some reason They keep giving him shit.
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's just like I'm just you know an old harmless man I'm gonna work in the prison and they're like why don't we give him some stuff?
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't we give him some tools?
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then he breaks down like oh my god.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: He broke out and that's why he's he's he's my grubber for messing Oh, yeah, he can just make shit if you give him a pencil and a paper clip he'll find a way We're gonna toothpick.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay?
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: He'll just get out.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, and then we see more of like it becomes more a personal vendetta for Vulture, where it's like, now my mission is killing Spider-Man, you know, which I think it kind of makes it interesting, because all of the villains have reasons to hate Spider-Man and to want to go after, but there's something about the Vulture relationship where it feels very personal for Adrian.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe for Spidey, it's not as personal, but for tombs, it's like super personal.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Josh, you are an artist.
• 26:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Drawing the culture, the textured feathered wings, the the poses, the giant wings spreads because the wings are the feature on this guy.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's the bald head of the nose, but it's the wings that are the feature.
• 27:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: The often will like round his back or round his stomach and almost like bend his legs at like bird angles.
• 27:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have thoughts on the visual?
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Would you enjoy drawing this character?
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was actually working on it right now.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And...
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just the pose in the wings, which of course are, they can be very dramatic.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love the shots in the comics where he's like flying or like, you know, looming over Spider-Man and looks like this dark angel, the upgrade he got when he was director of Ultra and had like the an actual like beak and talent's made out of technical.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: know organic virus are fantastic, but more than like the costume and everything, I think the face is just so much fun, like the big nose, all the lines he gets on his face, like when artists really lean into that and just make him very expressive, it's so much fun because you've got Spider-Man who's got, you know, the mask and you don't usually get a great sense of what his face looks like and the vultures just got all these crazy expressions on his face.
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love a weird face, so that's just distinct to me as, you know, the big wings.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of the only pop of color you get like he's his costumes, a wash of green, and then you've got his head stuck right in the middle, so it just stands it out.
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, is this why we're friends?
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Cause you love a weird face.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
• 28:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: My son, I last question before we begin.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Mike Rossi, the Vulture being a huge narcissist.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, does this remind you of anyone you've dated?
• 28:25
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, actually, I just, you know, like I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in all walks of life, um, but there comes to a point where, you know, you just have one too many checks and that like negative column or one too many drops and that that negative coin bucket.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like I try to originally trying to give him the benefit of the doubt like he had a he had a rough go of it in the beginning right parents died his caretaker was crippled like his business partner wound up being a dick like you kind of get why he becomes a little bit of villainous I guess, but he is just a little too self centered.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, there's just a little bit all about him.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: He knows how to hold a grudge and he doesn't let that shit go.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_05]: He might be Italian or, you know, Jewish or something.
• 29:09
  [SPEAKER_05]: But he, uh, he's a little bit kind of all about me.
• 29:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: Which, again, very, very much fits in with his, um, his little baby boomer attitude, I think.
• 29:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Is saying, do you have thoughts on Vulture as a grandparent?
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Lord, the fact that he's a parent freaks me out of treatment.
• 29:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so my thought is hell though, uh, and then Josh, uh, do you have thoughts on Vultures relationship with, well, Josh and then Justin, do you have thoughts on Vultures relationship with mutants?
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting because in the, um, the files where he is director of Vultures, they explicitly say he has no particular connection or concern with the mutant community.
• 29:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: They wrote him in because they are purely to a sense of greed.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually not sure he's really dealt with mutants before the Krakowan age.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Or I think more than you think,
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: we'll talk about it today.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think his concern or relationship with mutants only goes as far as like what are they doing to me right now or what can I take from them?
• 30:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think his enemies let's just like so personal.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's the equivalent of like a guy who would not call him sub-seed a phobic but he'll still run the ice facility if they're giving him a paycheck.
• 30:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like absolutely energy.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin, do you have thoughts here?
• 30:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's an opportunist, right?
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's just there to make a quick buck and to flex his intelligence, right?
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Directive culture.
• 30:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's all about his ego.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's all about his ability to be over other people.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: A big theme about him is he feeds into the Vulture mentality that he's taking down the week.
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so the idea that he can take down this group of people that are otherwise treated as less than.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: He also has a,
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: a terrible idea of what the weak are because hating Spider-Man, hating humans because of the fact that specifically, Spider-Man, because of the fact that he doesn't use his abilities for a personal game.
• 30:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that shows you at his heart who he is.
• 30:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's categorizing these other people as weak because they're less than him in his assumption.
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as was said, he's kind of a simple character in a lot of ways.
• 31:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a petty thief.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's incredibly self-centered and he holds a grudge, but I am interested in peeling back those layers and seeing what Elsa is because there's a few stories where we get a sense of depth or that he's like kind of hiding a lot of remorse for certain things in his life.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 31:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: I fucking love this character.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love a lot of the old Spidey villains.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think they're really delightful for the most part.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Strangely, like, I don't know, there's some old themes in the 60s comics that show up sporadically that you're like, no, but filters are a ton of fun.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I give a little wider reading sections to everybody here than, uh, then late.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: We've been doing smaller ones, but there's so many fun, ultra stories.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: I want to delete a little toward the comprehensive on this one.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: I did leave out almost all of his stories where he's part of any kind of group ensemble or just in the background of something.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you read the very first appearance of the sinister six, it is iconic, it's classic, it's beautiful, there's great vulture stuff, but we're not going to talk a lot about those types of stories here because we're focusing on him as a solo character.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: We've also put in retroactive continuity, so stuff that happened later, but it's inserted earlier.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have some of that woven into our narrative here.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope all of you had a fun time reading these stories.
• 32:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions.
• 32:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a wildly fun character and we're going to have a great time today.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, we're going to do this five out in five different trial sections.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Each member here has prepared a prosecution and a defense for the sections that they are on.
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're just here to have a silly fun time and talk about crazy comic book history.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: After each trial point, all of us, including me, will vote on a scale between 0 through 5 based on how guilty we think joke of the joke or the culture is.
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: A zero meaning, he's completely
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: innocent and a five meaning he's completely fucking evil.
• 32:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: So you get to use that moral rating scale however you like, we'll take a final score at the end.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Trial point one, we are calling dual to the death with the vulture.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: The assign jury member here is the same Rashid.
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: The same I always love talking comics with you, but there's something delightful about talking 60s comics with you specific.
• 33:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm just so much happy to hear.
• 33:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're covering amazing Spider-Man number two and seven, hold tales of Spider-Man 12 and 20.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing Spider-Man 48, 63 and 64, and then jumping over to the other secondary title, spectacular Spider-Man 45 and 44 and 45.
• 33:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all due to a big, great section.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Four days, a new and ominous danger has menace, the vast city of New York, no man knows where he'll strike next, no man can cope with this new, awesome threat, without warning, without the slightest sound he strikes.
• 33:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: For this is the Vulture, and no one draws an octogenary and like Steve Ditko, the bald and harsh-looking Vulture,
• 33:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: flies down out of the sky with green feathered wings that must have that have little hands at the tips, little green feathered body down to his toes, a little feathered tail on the back and so cute, and his most iconic feature, the white ruffles of feathers around his neck at the spread of wings behind him.
• 34:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: He just grabs a briefcase out of a man's hand and flies away.
• 34:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture is a sensation.
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Jay Jones had James and wants a whole issue of now magazine to be about this villain and he needs new photographs.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he sends his teenage like photographer, part-time photographer, uh, out to get pictures.
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Peter Parker is on the case.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Jonah does not know Peter is Spider-Man.
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture delivers a note to the diamond exchange that he plans to rob them that night.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the literal move the vanisher does in X-Men number two, which is crazy.
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Then he dump Spider-Man inside a water tank during the fight that night when he fights Spider-Man and he seals him up inside to determine to kill him.
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Spider-Man later builds a device to disable the Vultures wings with a magnetic pulse which leads to the Vultures first arrest.
• 34:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: While in jail, Adrian was a model prisoner and got a job in the machine shop where he built himself a new pair of wings and flew right out of prison.
• 34:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: After redesigning a new set of wings and tuned to the magnetic device of Spider-Man, Vulture evaded the authorities, Rob to jewelry store, then defeated Spidey and combat, leaving the hero unconscious on a roof-top.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: Savage Fighter, really.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture builds a basin in a band and silo, then tries robbing the payroll of the daily bugle at gunpoint from Jay Jonah Jamison,
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: whose young protege Peter Parker is there with a broken arm.
• 35:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Vulture and Jameson argue, a Peter changes into Spider-Man, fights the Vulture and new, they battle in the printing press room of the newspaper, Vulture flies Spider-Man high into the air with the intent to drop him to his death, but Spider-Man webs the Vulture's wings.
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Then attaches the Vulture to a web parachute as he slowly floats down to earth.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: But what a shitty move, this kid.
• 35:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture escapes from prison and battles Spider-Man telling the hero his plans to steal an atomic accelerator and challenging Spidey to stop him.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: And thus, Vulture tricks Spider-Man into distracting the literal military while he swoops into steel the device, planning to auction it off to the highest bitter.
• 35:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Delicious caper.
• 36:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Spider-Man pursues the Vulture however, and successfully gets the accelerator back.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Then the Vulture took a job working for the crime master agreeing to assassinate the Kingpin, but he was delighted when he noticed the headline that called Spider-Man a Coward.
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: After stopping a youth from committing suicide because he told him to just find someone to hate instead.
• 36:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: like blame someone else.
• 36:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to die.
• 36:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Just go and turn your hatred towards someone else.
• 36:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture then evades Spider-Man thinking the boy has fallen to his death.
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: He breaks through a window to kill the kingpin, but Spider-Man intervenes again.
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Reminded of his once youthful hope, the Vulture chooses to surrender, accepting defeat, and allowing some himself to be arrested once more.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: After suffering an injury in prison, the vulture lays seemingly dying, and he was desperate to keep his legacy going.
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he passed on the location of his wings to his fellow inmate, Blacky Drago.
• 36:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Before realizing the Drago, had been responsible for Adrian's accident in the jail of the first place.
• 36:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: Drogo had made a very brief career as the Vulture before he was defeated, and before long, tombs is out of prison, has a new set of wings, and he wants revenge.
• 37:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's Vulture vs. Vulture now.
• 37:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, told his old wings back from the museum they'd been placed in, didn't
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: delivered them to Blacky Dragon in prison, helping him break out so that tombs could defeat Dragon publicly and show everyone who the real vulture was.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: The two battled in the air, trading blows until Spider-Man intervenes, sensing that Spider-Man's arms have been injured, tombs savagely evades the team, fighting like a madman, demonstrating increasing strength.
• 37:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: In a shocking moment, JJ on a Jamison tries restraining Spider-Man to help the Vulture win and Spidey webs up Jamison himself.
• 37:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture keeps wailing on Spidey, who finally falls to the ground below, barely cushioning the fall with his own webs, but Spidey manages to reach out and destroy the Vulture's power pack, Vulture flies away as to safety as Spider-Man collapses.
• 37:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: When the Vulture Open Day fix it shot, the man working for Boss Morgan tried shaking him down in a protection racket and Vulture put on his suit, grabbed the man, and dropped him in the river to teach him a lesson.
• 37:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Morgan and his men returned with even greater demands, and Vulture defeated all of them leaving Morgan hanging from a lamp post.
• 38:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: It might be said, Boss Morgan is an African American, a mobster, and his all of his men are African Americans, so this is Vulture fighting in an uncomfortable battle just a little bit.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Ready for revenge with his new improved wings, the Vulture began grabbing civilians and putting them on rooftops in order to lure Spider-Man into his clutches.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the new wings proved capable of hacking through the hero's webs.
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Spidey tried grabbing the power pack again, it electrocuted him.
• 38:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture put a trap on it.
• 38:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: But the Vulture was stopped from killing the hero when a character named the hitman attacks.
• 38:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a big three-way battle, Vulture gets trapped, blasted in the face, and blinded.
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture prepares to deliver the winning blow against Spider-Man, but Hitman shoots the power pack and Vulture falls to the ground.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: Finally, when Mopster Big Louis was killed, Vulture made a play to be the new leader of a local mob, and he had his nephew Malachi tombs, demand that the leaders of the mob, families steal rare items for the Vulture to decorate his office with.
• 39:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: This led to some men being killed and in time, the capture of Spider-Man, who Vulture had chained inside of the coffin, and he planned to burn the young hero alive in a crematorium.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is 60's Batman deliciousness.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: After serving Champagne to his gang to celebrate the death of Spider-Man, Vulture proved he was stronger than his thug, a quote, Black Alfred, in a story that we can only blame white writers for in the 70's,
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: But when Spider-Man escaped, the place was set on fire, and Vulture abandoned the gang, escaping only with his nephew, but Alfred wanted revenge.
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he fired a gun.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Malachi took the bullet instead of Adrian furious and claiming that Malachi was the only living relative he had.
• 39:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture sought revenge, but Spider-Man once again fought back.
• 39:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: In a truly epic battle that lands in Grand Central Station, Vulture held his own with the super strong young hero.
• 39:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Vulture tried to escape the fight after suffering several many punches to the head, he was finally overcome with all of his grief and started sobbing about his nephew was gone, and now he was all alone.
• 40:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: That was a big summary, but wildly fun stories.
• 40:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me turn it over to his saying.
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Chad.
• 40:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really just had so much fun with mostly stories until as you said it got like really weird on things of race and like the Harlem invasion of lower Manhattan and it was like, Oh, can we not do this?
• 40:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess we could and we did so that we've got to deal with this.
• 40:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's start out.
• 40:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But is it truly theft?
• 40:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because what are our options with the ultra rich in America?
• 40:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's either reappropriation of our wealth from their filthy hands or eat them.
• 40:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think him taking the bonds from the couriers off the streets was far safer for the ultra rich in America.
• 40:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so really we have to applaud Mr. Adrian Tubes for returning our funds back into us into circulation of the people rather than being hoarded by the New York's ultra rich on billionaires row.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're met with him trying to take money from Jay Jonah Jameson if Jameson doesn't have insurance and it will bankrupt his business that seems like Jonas problem not Adrian's that money belongs to the people get it out to the people
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and not fit for our conversation today.
• 41:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, then Mr. Tum's seeks to take the Atomic Accelerator.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is clearly working for the anti-nuclear peace industry and seeking to help bring peace to the world.
• 41:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we must love him for his efforts to keep us all safe and secure in this modern society that has no interest in our well-being or survival.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then we come to Mr. Tum's being hired as an assassin.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: which you may think, there's no moral redemption or no moral investment in that.
• 41:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the reality is, when Spider-Man comes to him and says, do you really want to kill for hire?
• 41:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: He has a moment where he says, no, no, this is not what I wanted to grow up to be and willingly turn himself in.
• 42:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, he cannot be held culpable for the crime of being hired.
• 42:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does anyone, because he didn't hire himself, somebody else hired him.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then he had quams about it and chose not to go through with it.
• 42:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: When he battles, blackie drag, I don't know what you was that,
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story
• 42:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so he cannot be held liable when the police would not care for him and the identity theft that was occurring, uh, uh, uh, uh, during, uh, uh, of, uh, Tunes' own identity and then we come to the story of the, uh, the hitman where he is working.
• 43:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mr.
• 43:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tunes is working, uh, a little shop mining his own business when the mob comes to him and again, where the police know where to be found.
• 43:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: The property is not enough for them to care about.
• 43:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he has to take matters into his own hand, protect himself from a, from boss Morgan, who, oh my god, please don't get me started on boss Morgan's visuals because, because now, now we're just going to have to do a midi jury on like black representation in Spiderman at this time, like that's just a whole.
• 43:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're just gonna, oh, oh, comment on that really quickly.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you read early Luke Cage power man or hero physics comics, there's actually a lot of different types of black representation, but it's all very 70s black exploitation.
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all black partition.
• 43:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Boss Morgan is like the Jigalo in the suit with the hat, who, you know, like, it's very, he's all over Captain America comics in this time, interesting character.
• 43:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, boss board game can't just leave tombs alone and tombs has to protect himself.
• 43:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, you know, Spider-Man doesn't get involved until hitman brings tombs to his doorstep.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really, this isn't about tombs going after Spider-Man.
• 44:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is about tombs protecting himself.
• 44:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the mob and then the mob wanted to bring Spider-Man into it.
• 44:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we've got to consider tombs is, again, responding to the lack of protection for the underprivileged in New York City.
• 44:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then finally, I don't know what to do with this.
• 44:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It opens with this suggestion that he dismembered a mob boss and is showing off the bits of the mob boss.
• 44:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: He dismembered the other mob boss and say, get me my shit to decorate my bird's nest and they're like, yes boss.
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, but this is how he redeems itself.
• 44:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a clever plot to get black Alfred to win out the mob bosses as he kills them all off.
• 44:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And tubes is like, yeah, see they're not really criminal masterminds.
• 44:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: If one guy cannot come off, they're not criminal masterminds.
• 44:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he's really just clearing the board of New York City's underworld.
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And tubes again is during the service that the NYPD will not, which is take care of private in the city.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really we have to thank Adrian Tunes for his service, particularly the people of New York City when nobody else would.
• 45:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you would like additional thoughts on my thoughts about this black exploitation era stuff, the trial of Necran Nightshade has some of these thoughts.
• 45:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: But really, D'Amanda Martinez, Hermes Garmin, I did an episode on Black Mariah, who is a fat female crime boss from this era
• 45:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we have a lot of interesting thoughts on these characters.
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a journey.
• 45:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have seen what you actually had a great run of episodes on Black representation of the last February, 26th, didn't you?
• 45:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, I'm mixing, yeah, thank you.
• 45:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was really pleased with the content and quality of those episodes.
• 45:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: The tons of money episode in particular was really educational for me.
• 45:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we did brother Voodoo and Black Talon.
• 45:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that was a great episode.
• 45:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm dirty.
• 45:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was saying, what was it like for you reading the from the Vultures perspective in these old stories?
• 45:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you have fun?
• 45:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: These are wild stories.
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the first couple of ones, I was like, okay, I can sort of see like it's early.
• 45:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're making him a 60's villain, right?
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he's a bit one note.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like their things you could do with him.
• 45:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I liked him growing into some of that.
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I actually thought the one where he, you know, the, where he's hired as the assassins, but I'm asked to be like, this is what you want to grow up to be.
• 46:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, I could see them starting to poke or the right starting to poke and some of the complexes that can be underlying this.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the mob off stuff was uncomfortable not just because the race stuff, but it felt like it was a version back to that one note aspect.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And really, it's the most explicitly violent.
• 46:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's been and murderous.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's been that,
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it just doesn't feel good.
• 46:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: He just doesn't feel like one of those characters to be at.
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we reference Burgess Meredith as the penguin.
• 46:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: The penguin can be really fun and silly, or the penguin can be serial killer, right?
• 46:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: We write characters in different interpretations, but his motivation for like that guy stole my imprint, my suit, I want it back.
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like the just the drama of it all, he's wildly fun.
• 46:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, do you want me to prosecute him?
• 46:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or am I just on the same stage?
• 46:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: good because all I got to say is dude he was picking up poor guys doing their work hanging from the ceiling like yes that's not standing for the working class that's not unions strong come on man the class solidarity pick up your brethren and hang them up from the holes and grab hostage off the streets to bring out Spider-Man just not cool and you know you can decide not to be an assassin before you take the job as a assassin and we already talked about the race stuff
• 47:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the only one where I cannot prosecute him is blacky-drong or al-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
• 47:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike, you voted for a four, why?
• 47:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: So like, I don't know, the casualness of, and this is gonna come up, I think, in my section as well.
• 47:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: Just like, regardless of sort of the situation, the casual picking up of a person, flying them up into there and dropping them.
• 47:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's, it's hard to be like, oh, and good, like, he didn't really mean it, or like, the guy deserved, like, that's, that's a shitty way to go.
• 47:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I just, it leaves more hard
• 48:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: Oops, like didn't mean it or and the fact that he just kind of does it repeatedly throughout his career, it that's just it's pretty pretty hardcore.
• 48:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me just ask you though, if you had a flight suit, would you not?
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, 100% but I'm not saying that I'm a good guy.
• 48:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: And Joe, you voted a three way.
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the reason why I went with a three is because, you know, there's obviously intention to do harm with a lot of this, like, you know, attempted murder here and there, but I think comparatively to some of this stuff, we know he's going to do later.
• 48:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, that's basically how I'm kind of judging is like, is it the worst thing he ever did or is it like, you know, kind of the most, like, understandable or forgivable.
• 48:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think he's kind of in this era, he's kind of in the middle for me.
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know that we have a place to build to from here.
• 48:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 48:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't be like, oh, this is a five and then later, I kind of walked that back or something.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, I'll start with a three.
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: So votes here are four three two three four three, which gives us 19 out of 30 in the first section.
• 49:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to trial point two, which we are calling let fly these aged wings.
• 49:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm in that era of my life right now.
• 49:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Aspangerine member here is Joe Jones.
• 49:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: We are covering amazing Spider-Man, 224, 241, Web of Spider-Man, 3, Daredevil, 225, Web of Spider-Man, 241, Web of Spider-Man, 45, New Mutants, 86, which is my first experience with the whole chair as a reader.
• 49:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing Spider-Man, 336, Wolverine, cable, guts and glory, number one.
• 49:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Joe, I'm guessing you'd never read that one before.
• 49:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian Tomb's had several broken bones and spent time convalescing at the hospital, knowing he would be arrested as soon as he was released.
• 49:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: He built a pair of functional wings out of work out equipment, and then escaped through the window.
• 49:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: Putting on an old costume, he robbed the diamond district, a bank, an armored car, and the gold exchange, feeling as successful as he was in the early days of his career, built her had a new lease on life.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: But later, he planned a rob-a-poker game hosted by his fellow convalescent Nathan Lubensky, the boyfriend of one may
• 50:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: After knocking out May's nephew Peter, with the butt of a gun, Vulture ended up battling Spider-Man again, Vulture briefly took Lubensky hostage, but he liked the man and chose to let him go instead, flying away to fight again another day.
• 50:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture settled in a retirement village.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Far from New York, though he kept a rest of news back home.
• 50:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: When he heard that bestment electronics was back in business, Vulture booked a flight home and attacked the Expo where Gregory Bestman was advertising.
• 50:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Spider-Man attacked Vulture through bombs at him from another Expo display, then evading authorities escaped with Bestman, hiding him in a farm silo which he called his Vulture's nest.
• 50:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: We flashbacked to a few years before at B&T Electronics, bestmen and tombs, tombs had been thrilled to know business was up 5% as he worked on designing his flying suit, but he soon learned that bestmen had been under-reporting the profits, which were at 50% and in a fury tombs lashed out, realizing just how powerful he could be when he was angry.
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Bestmen won the business.
• 51:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was already an old man, I used what little savings I had to retire to this farm.
• 51:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: He worked on his flying suit, realizing the electromagnetic fields in the flight harness that energized his whole body.
• 51:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: And he became the new vulture to get revenge on best men specifically.
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: But before he could get his revenge Spider-Man had attacked, Wolverine tried killing best men and escaping into the woods, but Spider-Man closed him on him, ripped off his harness, and left Vulture webbed there for the authorities, but best men ended up being investigated as a result.
• 51:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: And if I was the Vulture, I would hate Spider-Man too, I'm just saying.
• 51:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, in prison, Adrian Thoom's worked with his cellmate Honsho in the machine shop, and Honsho was very interested in Thoom's wing designs, so much that when Honsho got out of jail, kind of just want to say that name over and over again, that's a delight.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Hauncho built several winged harnesses for himself and his buddies, except these were red.
• 52:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: The group called themselves the Vulturions, and they battled Spider-Man on a crime spree.
• 52:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: But when Vulture learned about their existence, he was not pleased as we could imagine.
• 52:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: He built himself some new wings, even though his guards had destroyed the old ones.
• 52:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: A Vulture staked out the new Vultureyons team and defeated them all, teaching them he was better than all of them, but especially better than Honsho, but then he had to fight Spider-Man again, but escaped when the hero fell unconscious.
• 52:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: After brooding for days, the Vulture ruminated on his many defeats.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: before hearing of the suicide of Heather Glenn, who happened to be Daredevil's ex-girlfriend, he had known her father.
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Knowing that he, uh, she had impressive jewelry, tombs distracted the decided to rob Heather Glenn's grave.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is Daredevil's girlfriend that committed suicide in the comics.
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, she's currently being featured in the Disney Plus series, but it is not the same character as Heather Glenn from the comics.
• 53:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
• 53:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he's going to rob her grave.
• 53:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: He ends up battling Daredevil in the cemetery.
• 53:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture realizing that Daredevil must be connected to Matt Murdoch stalked the hero, soon battling him again in the rain.
• 53:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: The fight led to a building where tombs rips through an elevator shaft before Daredevil beat the shit out of him, leaving him in the building's basement unconscious.
• 53:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: After inventing a pair of thick dice.
• 53:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture tried selling them to casino owner Owen Browsky and Atlantic Sinney for a city for $1 million, but when Browsky turned down the dice offer, Vulture threw the man to his death, luckily Spider-Man saved him.
• 53:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Later talking to himself, the Vulture thought how he would embrace death having an elaborate gravestone and perhaps even involving himself.
• 53:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture moved into the home of his old friend Randall Reese who had died and left his property
• 53:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: wanting to make briosky pay farther for turning down the dice, Vulture attacked a casino to draw him out and ended up fighting black suit spider-man, enraged Vulture vowed that this would be their last battle, but he fled when the pop goblin showed up and we're about it.
• 54:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture then attempted to sell his dice to Snake Diamond, who instead stole the special dice, and Vulture was furious, ranting in his base to a bunch of taxidermy to animals about how he was going to get revenge.
• 54:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Flying into the sky, he put a bomb on Diamond's plane, detonating it, and watching everyone on board parachute to the desert below, planning to attack them at will as they all died of thirst.
• 54:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: But of course, Peter Parker was on the plane, and he's so soon took Snake Diamond, handcuffed back to his lair, where he planned to involve him, Spider-Man intervened and Vulture tried to mummify the hero instead, but Spidey ended up defeating him and the Vulture was arrested.
• 54:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if you needed a Vulture in the Desert story, but you got it.
• 54:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: In jail, the Vulture received a mysterious set of wings upgraded by the Tinkerer and after breaking out of jail, he attacked the Tinkerer for daring to interfere with his original patent.
• 55:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Only to learn, are you ready?
• 55:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: That he had a mysterious benefactor.
• 55:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's strife.
• 55:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Strife is not in this comic, but he's the one that sent Vulture the way this is crazy continuity.
• 55:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: He'd had them commissioned in his very own private plot.
• 55:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture forced the Tinkerer to aid him in breaking into the courthouse to free Nitro from his containment canister in order to cause his own chaos.
• 55:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Their ends up being a battle with Rusty and Skids and the cops enter or end it when Nitro explodes and Vulture escapes capture flying away to safety.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: After auditioning by destroying a mannequin, Vulture took a job for hire from the kingpin, who he tried to kill recently, to kill his rival Raymond Trask, and when he attacked a public rally with grenades, battle Spider-Man, the supervillain chances here, Vulture attempts to take Meg Parker hostage, and her boyfriend Nathan Lubensky tries intervening and ends up falling to his death as Vulture escapes with Dr. Octopus.
• 56:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh no, on the evening of his first night in his new flight suit, the Vulture set off a bomb to blow open a building and rob jewels, but he crossed paths with a time-traveling cable, members strife, thou there's cable, tombs is in prison and his white daughter and grandson are held at gunpoint.
• 56:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: to get him to build a flying harness for his white supremacist gang in jail, but tombs instead works with the African nation to turn on the white supremacists, and they all end up dead.
• 56:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is a wild smattering of stories.
• 56:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me turn it over to Joe Hancho Jones.
• 56:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
• 56:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that you use my government name.
• 56:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I thought that this section was a lot of fun.
• 56:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like these are some of my favorite culture stories just because this is him when he's at his most reckless, which makes him very culpable, but at the same time, makes him very entertained because if you're going to be a supervillain, you got to, you know, be a supervillain.
• 56:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is kind of when he's like really stepping into that, like,
• 57:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the beginning, he's kind of like more like petty thief and, you know, part time assassin and now this is kind of him where he kind of figures out like this is my stick I'm going to fly around toss some grenades at people try to mummify spider man try to kill all these people like the it seems like this is where he's really stepping into his prime.
• 57:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the best thing he does in this section is when he kills a bunch of white supremacists.
• 57:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Good on you, Mr. Tumes.
• 57:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And not gonna hold him accountable for that.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: All good, good work.
• 57:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So first we'll hear from the prosecution.
• 57:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your honor is see members of the jury.
• 57:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are gathered here to weigh the actions taken by the man on trial today.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adrian Tumes, who many of you may know better by his moniker, the vulture.
• 57:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: and named chosen by tombs himself, which reveals a lot about his nature in the kind of man he is.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adrian tombs is opportunistic, egotistical, and narcissistic.
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is driven by his own self, his desires, and motivated through sheer self-preservation.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: As the vulture, tombs of you as himself at the top of the food chain, beating off those below him into scouting what remains when he's done with them.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Frequently, Adrian tombs engages in reckless and negligent behavior that endures the puts innocent lives at risk.
• 58:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: For example, we saw tombs create a potentially dangerous situation for the residents and nursing home when the engage in a battle with the vigilante known as Spider-Man.
• 58:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in another incident, we saw Mr. tombs attempt to murder his former business partner Gregory Bestman in cold blood at TechExpo.
• 58:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And tombs is wrathful lust for revenge, tombs demonstrate a lack of consideration for the innocent lives in jeopardy.
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was going to let any civilians become collateral damage in his mad quest for revenge.
• 58:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: In tombs is most reckless act yet, we saw him release a dangerous supervillain in Robert Hunter, aka Nitro from captivity.
• 58:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nitro has the ability to self-daten a reconstitute self, essentially making himself a living bomb.
• 58:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nitro's canisters, the only means of preventing nitro from exploding, had not been for the heroic actions of new names, skids, absorbing nitro's blast tombs willfully releasing nitro could have led to some very deadly and catastrophic consequences.
• 58:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adrian Tomb's season self is a predator, praying upon the weak and vulnerable.
• 58:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: This elevated sense of self suggests that Tomb sees himself above all others.
• 59:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tomb's is oversized ego and narcissistic tendencies resolve, and it complete this for guard for the sanctity of human life, except when they have something they can offer him.
• 59:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: For example, Tum's once attempted to rob the grave of the late Heather Glenn, a woman who is buried with rare jewels after she died, robbing a dead woman's grave is a despicable act, even for a man who calls herself the vulture.
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tum's is also responsible for the death of a senior citizen, a man named Nathan Lubensky, who once considered Tum's a friend.
• 59:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: When Tum took the elderly may Parker's a hostage during yet another encounter with Spider-Man, the woman's boyfriend, Lubensky tried to intervene.
• 59:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: and fell to his death trying to save Parker from the clutches of the vulture.
• 59:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: While some may view Nathan LeBenski's death is simply an accident, and this clear that had not been for tombs as careless actions, LeBenski may still be alive today.
• 59:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: In summary, it should be made clear here today that Adrian tombs is complete disregard for human life, and numerous incidents of reckless and negligible behavior has resulted in untold mass destruction and countless lies being ruined.
• 59:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 59:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we will hear from the defense.
• 59:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jo came to play all.
• 59:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm prepared.
• 1:00:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we have heard today unsubstantiated claims that my client is egotistical and narcissistic and does not care for human life.
• 1:00:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is not highlighted in the narrative here is my client is a victim of a system which rewards mediocrity and denies brilliance.
• 1:00:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adrian Tumes is a masterful inventor and a creative genius who is wrong by his business partner, Gregory Bessman, who stole Tumes' rifle portions to the profits from business at wild.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: They may have started it together.
• 1:00:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was Tumes' knowledge and technical prowess and made B&T electronics what it was.
• 1:00:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is before Bessman betrayed his partner at a breed in Averis.
• 1:00:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where was the justice for Tumes and Bessman stole from him?
• 1:00:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tumes was forced to try and balance the scales himself because the system in place would not ensure that this injustice would be corrected.
• 1:00:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tumes is yet another innovative genius whose greatness was never fully realized because someone less deserving stole the opportunity right out from under him.
• 1:00:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tumes once again had his intellectual property and worked stolen from him by the criminal named Honsho, who illegally pilfered Tumes' design and re-appropriated them for his own nefarious purposes.
• 1:01:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tumes took upon himself to try and take back the designs that rifle bombed him, who was interfered with by the so-called hero, Spider-Man, despite my client
• 1:01:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: The prosecution has blamed agent Tunes from the tragic death of Nathan LeBensky.
• 1:01:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: LeBensky's death was a horrific accident and one that my client agrees himself with every day.
• 1:01:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tunes considered LeBensky a dear friend, possibly the only true friend my client has ever known.
• 1:01:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tunes would have done anything as power to save LeBensky, had Spider-Man not intervened.
• 1:01:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to stand here before you and try to convince you that my client is not made mistakes.
• 1:01:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But who amongst us can say that they live a life free of regrets and choices that they wish they could take back?
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: My client is not a wicked man, but one whose path in life was shaped by a significant act of wrongdoing that irreparably altered his course, and set him on the track of criminality.
• 1:01:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Most of my clients' crimes were victimous ones, such as robberies and thefts rather than murder or anything serious of that nature.
• 1:01:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: To reiterate, Adrian Thooms is an innocent man who has been mistreated and denied justice.
• 1:01:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: To prosecute him under the fold sent of the law, we'll be to deny him justice once again.
• 1:02:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let us do right by Thooms today by finding him not guilty of all charges.
• 1:02:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 1:02:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, well, Don Jo, these like soap opera, 80s comics are so fun.
• 1:02:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear your thoughts on just what it was like reading these and then your thoughts on the strife and cable loop at all because that's a wild turn to the story.
• 1:02:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, I love this era of comics because like you said it is soap opera there is so much.
• 1:02:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: happening, you know, there is so many plots and stories and, you know, just exceeding the relationships to the characters and how they all connect like that was a wild twist to see that bolts or somehow it's connected to cable and stuff, but I kind of think it's like a recurring theme in Marvel Comics it.
• 1:02:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: basically all characters somehow connect to cable or so it's kind of like the like seven degrees or whatever six degrees of Kevin Bacon, it's like if you just pluck any random Marvel character somehow they connect to cable like I was reading the Miles Morales fireman run by by a primal bendus and guess who shows up in that run cable.
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why?
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's a, yeah, my first love was x-force.
• 1:03:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: And so when I was first buying back issues, it was those new mutants runs from like the late 80s early 90s.
• 1:03:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: And that Rob Layfield cover of like the Vulture holding Rusty Collins.
• 1:03:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: And there's so many lines around the crotch.
• 1:03:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it would lay felt characteristic.
• 1:03:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Very much so.
• 1:03:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I love that comic book.
• 1:03:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, voting in the chat again, everybody, please.
• 1:03:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin, you go to the four.
• 1:03:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Tell me why.
• 1:03:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: So he's got a lot of attempts.
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's got a lot of things that he's working with, but he's not succeeding often.
• 1:03:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like, yes, there are things against him.
• 1:03:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the defense did a good job at taking it down away from the five.
• 1:03:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I'm looking at the chair right now.
• 1:03:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that he's killing white supremacists,
• 1:03:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to convict this man.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: The story with Nathan Lubensky dying is actually really sad because May's already lost Uncle Ben and this is like her second try.
• 1:03:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's so it's a sad, it's a sad little story.
• 1:03:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Josh, you seemed morally conflicted at this one.
• 1:03:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's there's a lot of things going on like a big and small scale here like yes killing Nathan is like very sad on a personal level like for us the readers and for am they but like I don't want to say accents happen but kind of they do um but you know then killing
• 1:04:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: For a go on, that's like a rare swing.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, I gotta hand it to him.
• 1:04:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying he like did good things here.
• 1:04:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying he's done a lot worse.
• 1:04:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: We will not delve deep into this, but we are getting later going to learn.
• 1:04:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: He has a white child, but also clearly has a child with a black partner as well because starling is his granddaughter.
• 1:04:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we get the boss Morgan story where he's fighting black Alfred and now we get him partnering with the African nation in jail.
• 1:04:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: like these fulfilled stories you guys.
• 1:04:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let me add these up really quickly.
• 1:04:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: That gives us a 22 out of 30 in this section, and I will now take us to trial point three, which we are calling the wings of age, which will also be likely the title of Microsse's future autobiography.
• 1:04:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: are spectacular Spider-Man 186 through 188 amazing Spider-Man 386 through 388 back to ASM 396 spectacular 2019 Spider-Man unlimited number 10 Marvel Knights Spider-Man number four.
• 1:05:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a very different era for comics.
• 1:05:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Mike, I hope you had a blast,
• 1:05:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: After being diagnosed with cancer, the Vulture went on a revenge, spree, killing anyone who had ever crossed him by flying them up in the air and dropping them down to their deaths.
• 1:05:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: He killed his old friend Gregory with his own hands, snapping his neck, and then fought Spider-Man and fled wanting to chip away at the hero a bit at a time.
• 1:05:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is jammed advantage writing, it's excellent.
• 1:05:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture then broke into the home of May Parker, asking for forgiveness for the death of Nathan Lubensky, but she slapped him across the face and ordered him to get out.
• 1:05:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture broke into the daily bugle, threatened the life of J. Jonah Jameson to get the man to print in the daily bugle, Vulture's intention to kill Spider-Man.
• 1:05:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: He then returned to the home of May Parker, again asked for forgiveness, and this time took Peter Parker as a hostage to try to force forgiveness.
• 1:06:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: He needed to defeat Spider-Man and get May Parker's forgiveness or he couldn't die in peace.
• 1:06:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: Peter jumped up to a window to his seeming death and then returned to Spider-Man for his big battle with the vulture who had boosted his strength way past the safe levels with electromagnetic energy.
• 1:06:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Ranting about wanting a meaningful death, Vulture pushed his power even farther, and his wings were set on fire spontaneously.
• 1:06:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Spider-Man took the defeated Vulture back to May Parker, to apologize, and she watched him get arrested.
• 1:06:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Later, she visited tombs in prison, choosing to let her anger go, and leave him for God's judgment.
• 1:06:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: The issue ends with him in tears.
• 1:06:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Brilliant.
• 1:06:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Craven's last hunt era, comics, I love it,
• 1:06:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Painting a love of jazz music in order to get access to technology, the Vulture device, device wings and an EM blaster to overpower a guard and escape from prison where they'd hired a boat to help him escape.
• 1:06:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he pretended to like jazz and got out of jail.
• 1:07:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: still riddled with cancer, he was now determined to live forever in prison he'd read about the work of Dr. Benita Sanchez, who had developed a machine called the Juvenator that could transform life energy from one person to another and he immediately broke into her lab where Spider-Man of course attacked.
• 1:07:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vosha fought him savagely, then used the Juvenator on the young hero, draining away his youth.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: which made Spider-Man old and Vulture young, Vulture flues circles in the sky before designing himself a new costume, but his old age kept returning from, and then leaving again.
• 1:07:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: So he's going back and forth between old and young, which is how I feel every morning versus every afternoon in my late 40s, very frankly.
• 1:07:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture did end up achieving his youth again, but then things get weird fast.
• 1:07:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: He takes the life from an artificial construct of Peter Parker's mother, Mary Parker,
• 1:07:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's a robot.
• 1:07:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Peter thinks his parents are back to life, but really they're robots.
• 1:07:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then the Vulture drains the life of Peter's robot mom.
• 1:08:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: And it, okay, we're just moving on.
• 1:08:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture.
• 1:08:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture teams up briefly with the owl.
• 1:08:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: And for the first time, we see the he keeps it pet vulture.
• 1:08:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: A pet poison vulture.
• 1:08:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Having clearly gone mad now, the Vulture steals a deadly virus and tests it on an unhoused man, poisoning him and then killing the man by breaking his neck.
• 1:08:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: and he announced his plan to use the birds to spread this new virus all over the city.
• 1:08:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: And in maybe the weirdest vulture story to date, sending out birds to carry his virus to targets.
• 1:08:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Some of whom are old associates of the owls, because vulture seems obsessed with having a bird team up for some reason.
• 1:08:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: In the end, a Daredevil and Spider-Man kick his ass.
• 1:08:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is giving a little like a Denny De Vito penguin in the Batman movies.
• 1:08:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: This whole like army of vultures thing.
• 1:08:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: When the Vulture noticed he was returning to old age once again, he grew determined to hold on to his youth at all costs more than ever, and began killing vagrants and lawyers, draining their life into himself, like Celine.
• 1:09:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's like vampire energy draining, and he tried doing it at the, for the, to the Scarlet Spider.
• 1:09:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't worry about that guy and ended up back in prison.
• 1:09:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture in a new black costume with a red cult, excuse me with a red color, fight Spider-Man kind of, and mentions for the first time that he has a grandson who has leukemia.
• 1:09:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know I had family, huh?
• 1:09:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well neither did I enter my daughter in law showed up at Ryker's with the most beautiful baby you ever saw in your life.
• 1:09:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Set her husband was doing time for armed robbery over in Delaware, and she wants her boy to meet me, before some super punk dropped a truck on me or something,
• 1:09:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, I didn't believe a word until she showed me the pictures and the letters and the couple's birthday cards, I'd sent the boy's mother, then it all came flooding back.
• 1:09:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I had a family Spider-Man every week for six and a time, months they visited me in that dump, and when they let me out, I saw him saw them twice a week.
• 1:09:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have any idea how much harder that made it?
• 1:09:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have any idea how bad I took it when they found out that little kid's horrible damn lump?
• 1:09:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of feel like he's making this whole stick up though.
• 1:10:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: We see flashbacks, though, and there's a black woman and her black son who are visiting him in jail, so new Vulture Lord.
• 1:10:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Finally, he sees Spider-Man's face for the first time.
• 1:10:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: He tries to drop the very wounded hero to his death while also trying to rob the owl, remember his old boyfriend the owl.
• 1:10:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Black cat beats them up, and he ends up captured by the owl who then beats the shit out of him.
• 1:10:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me turn it over to Mike.
• 1:10:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: Just first off side bar, if anyone ever needs any sort of legal representation, they should certainly go with Joe over me, because this is not going to be anything like the previous section.
• 1:10:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm going to start with the fence, like the guys a family man, this is this is really important.
• 1:10:46
  [SPEAKER_05]: We learn that he's got kids and you know, grandkids and some people like kids.
• 1:10:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: and feel like they should be protected and saved.
• 1:10:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: But cancer sucks and no one should have to suffer through that.
• 1:10:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: So you kind of can see why this sort of anger is further imbuing our poor guy to sort of drive him to just be sort of, you know, like unrealistic in his his perception of how the world should work.
• 1:11:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, he does have a sense of justice.
• 1:11:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, he, you know, punishes his former business partner who is kind of a dick.
• 1:11:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, as I mentioned earlier, um, you know, it wasn't fair to be embezzling and essentially to kind of steal, um, steal the company out from, from Tunes' feet.
• 1:11:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, he's a pet owner and like that's really important.
• 1:11:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: If he was completely evil and bad, uh, he wouldn't spend the time, you know,
• 1:11:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: sure he gave it poison talons and trained it to kill people, but you know they say like sometimes dogs look like their owners, and this vulture is really just mimicking his daddy, right?
• 1:11:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's it's important to have some love in your life.
• 1:11:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: So even if your family sort of abandoned you you know he is really kind of he can't be totally bad.
• 1:12:03
  [SPEAKER_05]: He has he has a pet he's a firm believer in stem apparently like
• 1:12:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: He was able to really just jump in and Marguer slash radio shack is a skate from prison.
• 1:12:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, come on, your average art school kid would not have been able to do that.
• 1:12:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, sig drawing pictures on the wall, um, opposed to pretending to love jazz in order to make, uh, my contraption to escape.
• 1:12:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: So the guys, the guys is smart.
• 1:12:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: He was seeking forgiveness.
• 1:12:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure, it happened because he was thinking that he was going to die, but those those pages particularly sort of that panel to panel moment when he's confronting Ant-Man kind of you see sort of this like this struggle on his face.
• 1:12:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: He's like crazy in angry, but then again showing sort of remorse and just because he was seeking forgiveness because he was going to die, you know, it's still important to do that one-eightian and turn around a little bit.
• 1:13:01
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, we're going to touch upon that again in the in the prosecution portion.
• 1:13:06
  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's also important that he is an employer when he escapes from prison after Magrubring his way out.
• 1:13:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: We learned that he hired some thugs from New Jersey to help him escape.
• 1:13:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: So he he really firmly believes in, you know, seeking help and then paying others for their services.
• 1:13:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and something sort of, um, maybe not like super important, but he gives Spider-Man a very important teaching moment.
• 1:13:30
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so the first time he drinks Spider-Man's youth, uh, and Spidey's all old and, and trying to, you know, web sling and whatnot and getting winded.
• 1:13:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: Despite he has this moment where he realizes that it's important to like listen to old people.
• 1:13:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like now he knows what it feels like to be old and that, you know, they're not just like leeches upon society, but like it's important to really think about what old people have to go through.
• 1:13:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, that adds additional layers to Spider-Man.
• 1:13:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: And Peter Parker wouldn't have had that insight in less culture, talk him that lesson.
• 1:14:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, like all that stuff.
• 1:14:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: Indifets, Pet's not his fault.
• 1:14:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Pet Defense is a little bit all-time favorite.
• 1:14:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like that.
• 1:14:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, sure his pet is a poison bulger, but that's it.
• 1:14:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I'm all about, I would teach my cat to attack people, just kind of sliding that out there.
• 1:14:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, so that's sort of how the defense would rest.
• 1:14:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: As far as the prosecution goes, like, oh my god, the revenge stuff.
• 1:14:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's
• 1:14:30
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it helps to have a villain who is a little bit more one dimensional, but he's just kind of let it go sometimes he's just all about like punishing the hostage thing again, and this has been brought up in the earlier points the opening of that one comment.
• 1:14:46
  [SPEAKER_05]: where he just drops, I think it was spectacular Spider-Man, where he just dropped the guy from the roof and the guy bounces off buildings on his way down.
• 1:14:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, maybe the guy deserved it, but that's just really kind of a hardcore shitty way to do somebody in.
• 1:15:01
  [SPEAKER_05]: I think another sort of point that really kind of stands out, particularly in these issues, even though we're seeing some of this remorse that he's trying to pull in here, he's just really cool.
• 1:15:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: So dropping people off the roof aside, he wants when he drains Spider-Man's youth away and turns him old, he even thinks about killing him and just because it's super easy now, right?
• 1:15:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: He's sort of in feeble, and he decides to just kind of back off
• 1:15:31
  [SPEAKER_05]: So he's thinking about sort of the psychological impact that this will have on Spider-Man.
• 1:15:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: Doesn't care that he can sort of end it quick.
• 1:15:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: And essentially get the revenge that he has been looking for for ages.
• 1:15:43
  [SPEAKER_05]: He wants Spider-Man to suffer.
• 1:15:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: When he sends his pets out to kind of poison everybody this whole idea, when he's working with Asli, is to kill everyone who knows who they are, so they can sort of start life a new.
• 1:15:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: And again, that's also pretty hardcore, you know, it's one thing if you're just like, oh, I'm going to drop this one guy off the roof and bounce him on the way down and another thing to be like, I'm going to kill thousands and thousands of people.
• 1:16:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I can start a new life again, it's a little bit on the self or side in that issue with, I was Lee, it's interesting because the owl is sort of trying to to start this new life or or eat considering his own redemption.
• 1:16:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: And Vulture is just kind of like, no bro, like, we're going to do this thing, sort of, again, manipulating him and pushing him back to the, to the dark side as it were.
• 1:16:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: Another super cool thing within that story, when Vulture poisons one of Owl's associates or whatnot, he gives what he tells Owl is the cure in this vial and essentially tells him, hey, if you want to make it better, you have the power, it's up to you.
• 1:16:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: All decides not to give the cure to this man, but proceeds to give it to Spider-Man later on.
• 1:16:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: And at the end of the issue, we learned that the cure was just tap water.
• 1:16:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: So he essentially provided hope and then again snatched it away right there at the end.
• 1:17:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a lot of of cruelty that is underscored sort of throughout these issues.
• 1:17:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not just sort of that one dimensional like villain being a villain, but really kind of digging the claws and super deep to just being fastful.
• 1:17:14
  [SPEAKER_05]: So fuck that guy.
• 1:17:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: These are wildly fun comics.
• 1:17:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you read the Vulture in the owl as boyfriends on the worst date ever?
• 1:17:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there definitely is some of that vibe going on there when you know like the hours just kind of like get me the fuck out of here like tries to like sneak into the bathroom and disappear And Bolcher just kind of keeps like popping his head into check on them and see what's going on.
• 1:17:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: They're like we're both old we're both prime bosses.
• 1:17:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: We both like to wear talons on our feet.
• 1:17:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's fly around the city together.
• 1:17:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear thoughts on this section, but everybody put your vote into the chat It's crazy to think and I know it was an LMD, but Vulture killed Nathan Lubenski threatened Ant-May and then killed Spidey's mom Like wild stories Hussein why you were vote in this section Hussein vote will we've all voted five?
• 1:18:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a brutal section, and I think my covered a lot of it, but you know, randomly pick up people of dropping them, and going after the unhoused and the most vulnerable, like, just throws my class all the dirty argument at the window, and like, again, there are enough billionaires on billionaires row you can be hurting.
• 1:18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want people can't defend themselves.
• 1:18:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: And Josh let me hear your thoughts on your vote.
• 1:18:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I'm the only person that didn't vote a five.
• 1:18:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: It seems I voted for and it's not because it's purely because later down the line I think he does worse things what he's doing here is bad and cruel and petty but on a petty scale.
• 1:18:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm influenced by what I read for my section, but when he does bad on a bigger scale, it's so much worse.
• 1:18:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I'm all for it, but we do see him breaking next with his bare hands, dropping people bouncing them off buildings and murdering the homeless.
• 1:18:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Not that I'm defending it, but like that's kind of a typical day for him, isn't it?
• 1:18:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh sure, it does get worse over here for it.
• 1:19:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that gives us a 20,000 out of 30 in this section.
• 1:19:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll go to trial point four, which we are calling great heights.
• 1:19:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin Wilder is our assigned jury member.
• 1:19:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, this is a sensation.
• 1:19:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: And Justin, I've sent you on all kinds of journeys, but this spider-man jury was was a very particular guy and... Wild.
• 1:19:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, sensational Spider-Man 26 through 28 web spinners 15 and 16 friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 14 through 16 amazing Spider-Man 674 and 5 and superior Spider-Man 3 and this is Dr. Octopus Spider-Man I love I love this title
• 1:19:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Back at his elderly age, tombs was released from prison when an attorney helped convince a judge that he was just a harmless old man.
• 1:19:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture then heard a news report that a new villain called the Hornet had killed Spider-Man.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: Furious and wanting revenge as his own vengeance had been denied, the Vulture attacked, but this Hornet was Spider-Man in an era where he was wearing a bunch of different costumes and they all became the slingers anyway.
• 1:20:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture's defeated.
• 1:20:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Ultra made a plan to steal the most expensive jewelry in New York City in one night.
• 1:20:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: After causing a city-wide blackout, he broke into homes and threatened villains in less thay or excuse me, and threatened victims in less they handed their jewelry over.
• 1:20:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: He kidnapped a child.
• 1:20:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: wild, Tamra to secure one item and use a new chemical compound that sets fire to things while he battled Spider-Man in the sky, all while using so many amazing puns and one liners.
• 1:20:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: In one, he says he's the anti-clos, not the anti-clos, it's amazing.
• 1:20:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture bargained with the girl's life in one last battle with Spider-Man, but his chemical compound blew up the Vulture seemingly with it.
• 1:20:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Spider-Man was a wanted felon after the passage of the Superhuman Registration Act, so where it civil war, Bulcher was deputized to bring him down.
• 1:20:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: He threatened innocence before battling Spider-Man with his strength more enhanced with a new generator, and he used a hallucinogenic against the hero, maybe he took it from his other boyfriend, Mysterio's house, the last time he was there.
• 1:21:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture once defeated was defeated when he had a stroke in the middle of the fight, and the craziest part of the story is that Vulture was weaponized by a rogue Jamie Maddrogs duplicate during this entire fight.
• 1:21:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's another X-Men connection.
• 1:21:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: That dupe tried to then smother the Vulture, who saw malt Maddrogs as a dupe during the fight wild wild.
• 1:21:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
• 1:21:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Trying his hand at leading a gang again, the Vulture put together a flock.
• 1:21:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: Capital F, it's a group name of young criminals, giving them flying suits and having them commit crimes and bring him the proceeds, it's begging from Oliver Twist.
• 1:21:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: He killed one of the kids when they disappointed him and intimidated them by hacking up raw meat with his knife in front of it while feeding it to his pet vulture.
• 1:21:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't know if it's the poison one.
• 1:21:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture, who kept threatening the kids and calling himself daddy, sent the teens to rob a rare coin collection as he monitored their exact weight to ensure that no one stole from him.
• 1:22:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: I got to measure the proceeds before and after.
• 1:22:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: When one kid did steal from him, he let that boy fall to his death, then Spider-Man attacked, defeating the flock.
• 1:22:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture threw a water tower
• 1:22:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Adrian then turned a small children into his little flock, so before they were teens and now they're like grade schoolers.
• 1:22:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: He dresses them as little vultures that he sends them out to commit crimes, and this time when Spidey attacks the mind of Otto Octavius isn't his body, and this man is not gentle.
• 1:22:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Otto is not Peter.
• 1:22:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: He beats the shit out of the vulture, burns him, and lets him crash into a car.
• 1:22:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's...
• 1:22:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a wild-turning character motivations for this guy with flocks of children.
• 1:22:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, okay.
• 1:22:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me turn it over to Justin.
• 1:22:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Truly insane.
• 1:22:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now for the prosecution, here we have the Vulture, a real adaptive criminal.
• 1:22:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: He does it all.
• 1:22:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Purgers.
• 1:22:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: lying to a judge with clear intentions to immediately try to kill Spider-Man, but that's only an attempted murder.
• 1:23:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I know the law, that's a baby crime in these courts.
• 1:23:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, he does this attempted murder of a random new target quickly going for the Hornet after barely knowing who he is.
• 1:23:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's reckless.
• 1:23:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's insane, and he's attacking in a crowded public place, civilians galore, attempting to reveal the Hornet's secret identity to strangers.
• 1:23:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: That one's not illegal, but would be cited as a dick move violation.
• 1:23:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's so comfortable with breaking and entering that he's driven by this urge to feed, snatching up millions of dollars of precious gemstones and other high value items, terrorizing the elderly.
• 1:23:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: He should know, they can have a heart attack if he keeps on sneaking up on them.
• 1:23:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Vulture has created an elaborate plan to hit the entire city, kidnapping, child and daydreaming.
• 1:23:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're done with the warm-ups and we start getting into the real meat of his criminal enterprise.
• 1:23:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's all premeditated.
• 1:23:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's made his modified weaponry more effective, more deadly.
• 1:23:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: His selective brilliance would be a benefit to society, if it wasn't so focused on sweet vulture-themed murder machines.
• 1:24:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's taken it all up a notch with chemical warfare.
• 1:24:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: igniting Spider-Man's webbing and body while he's in the air, leaving him to die.
• 1:24:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: These are the actions of someone with murderous intent.
• 1:24:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: He attacks a police helicopter, cutting down its center, leaving the officers to fall to their deaths.
• 1:24:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's not just the heroes that he holds a grudge against, the Spider-Man who always drives his rage.
• 1:24:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's anyone in the way of his goal.
• 1:24:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: The strength of his upgraded gauntlets, this ability to do anti-gravity work, lift giant structures, it makes him a threat on another level, violent attacks, taking the sharp blade of his wings to the back of Spider-Man, cutting him so bad that Spider-Man screams.
• 1:24:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: The way the Adrian looks down on others, throughout a thread of this storyline, seeing them as weak if they're unwilling to do things that would improve their lives at the expense of others.
• 1:24:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: He cares nothing for other people.
• 1:24:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: He uses people as bait for his attacks on Spider-Man, glass shards flying everywhere, debris, property damage, attacking a store that's overcrowded with civilians and it attempt to flush out a hero vigilante.
• 1:25:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Next level tactics, blood thirsty, murderous.
• 1:25:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: attacking Spider-Man with a hallucinogenic substance and then leaving him to fall to his death.
• 1:25:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a level up, recognized the game, but this is cruel criminal behavior.
• 1:25:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: The last two sections of this reading takes us to its peak.
• 1:25:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: He makes a pyramid scheme, outfitting kids of the streets with wing suits and a play for being the top talent.
• 1:25:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everything feeds up where daddy, which is what he calls himself, a crime unto itself to these children, is pulling off grand scale theft.
• 1:25:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: And some of these kids are dying.
• 1:25:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Four of them actually reported before we actually see what happens on the page, falling out of a sky to their deaths because of vulture, cutting off their wing suits that he's giving them to do his criminal masterminds.
• 1:25:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's straight murder.
• 1:25:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a new ecosystem of crime and he's the kingpin, the wingpin, which is a crime of mispons against both Spider-Man and Dan Slot.
• 1:25:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Not the wingpin.
• 1:26:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going there.
• 1:26:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: The last story is even worse.
• 1:26:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's doing it all again, but with kidnapped children, babies, he made Otto hit a baby.
• 1:26:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Otto Octavius and Spider-Man's body and have a humanizing moment.
• 1:26:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't make me feel bad for Otto Octavius.
• 1:26:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Rest in my case, crimes go lower for the defense.
• 1:26:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: The prosecution wants to paint my client Adrian Tum's as a menace.
• 1:26:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: I only see a victim.
• 1:26:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Someone who is taken has been taken down time after time by those closest to him.
• 1:26:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the heroes that are supposed to protect us.
• 1:26:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Dead parents distraught rising above the circumstances that life has thrown at him and trying to make a better life for himself.
• 1:26:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: A brilliant mind that's taken advantage by his most trusted ally.
• 1:26:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's a man who has been given that trust by our government to work on special assignments.
• 1:26:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: A hero in his eyes.
• 1:26:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Upgrading his suit.
• 1:26:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if that's not a sign of trust, I don't know what is.
• 1:26:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's been deputized.
• 1:26:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's basically an avenger.
• 1:26:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Also, let the record show that we have freeze-frame panel footage of Spider-Man trying to suffocate Adrian to death.
• 1:26:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: I see a Spider-Man suit and a pillow over his head.
• 1:27:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: A murder attempt.
• 1:27:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: What is this comic?
• 1:27:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everything's upside down.
• 1:27:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Ader in tombs is not a criminal, he's an opportunist, he's an industrialist, a man of capitalism who is creating jobs in his new empire, which in today's America makes him one of the most valued members of society.
• 1:27:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's giving flight to the dreams of you and literal flight to their deaths.
• 1:27:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: This guy is the stuff of legend and should be acquitted of all attacks this is all slander let the man walk You're so good at acting both sides just that I can never quite tell where you're landing.
• 1:27:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you love or hate this character in this era?
• 1:27:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: God, I'm criminal.
• 1:27:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Come on.
• 1:27:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that doesn't mean I don't love him.
• 1:27:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 1:27:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're here.
• 1:27:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking objectively about people that do bad things well.
• 1:27:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 1:27:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so you have to recognize, especially throughout these, the way that he evolves his brand of criminality, right?
• 1:27:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and it's about spider island, I can see the, the connections, but the way to then take his power and and to let it out willingly, not have it stolen, no, no, take advantage and create this like, I don't know, I just, I like that as inventiveness.
• 1:28:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like him as, but I also just, he's so simple.
• 1:28:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like he just wants that big score.
• 1:28:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: He just wants an nest egg to retire on.
• 1:28:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: If I was writing the handbook entry on this guy and I do have stories like this from my handbook days, I might look at this and ask the editor.
• 1:28:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Could I put in a line in the profile about like how the generator on his back?
• 1:28:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like changes his thinking patterns.
• 1:28:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's something that this character has some vast motivation shifts.
• 1:28:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm moving to a retirement village.
• 1:28:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like to I want my best friends to be the owl to I'm murdering small children who are not stealing properly for me.
• 1:28:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Just why
• 1:28:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: I held turns for this character almost at like a toad level.
• 1:28:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Toad has wildly different motivations at times.
• 1:28:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I think it's fives from everybody in this section, but let me hear from Mike and Joe.
• 1:28:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Why you voted five here?
• 1:28:47
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, come on.
• 1:28:48
  [SPEAKER_05]: There's only so many jobs you can create before killing children.
• 1:28:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: He's no longer acceptable.
• 1:28:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: Did I say that correctly?
• 1:28:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like it's just.
• 1:28:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, keeping kids as pets, everyone's got their thing like that's fine, but I just to to kill them when they do something wrong.
• 1:29:06
  [SPEAKER_05]: There would be no children.
• 1:29:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: There would be no humanity.
• 1:29:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: If we killed children when they messed up, that's it.
• 1:29:11
  [SPEAKER_05]: Those were just done as a society.
• 1:29:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Psychologically, this man is making children dresses him and then murdering them when he just, when they just please him, there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something going on there's something
• 1:29:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: kids.
• 1:29:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You want to steal some stuff from me.
• 1:29:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like creepy old man going to children.
• 1:29:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe these children don't have parents.
• 1:29:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they're unhoused.
• 1:29:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he's like, I got to give back to the unhoused community.
• 1:29:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I killed all these parents of these unhoused children.
• 1:29:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now I guess I'll take them in, which is why auto-TV is like, that's the line for auto is he's like, oh, it's kids.
• 1:30:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to beat the shit out of you for that.
• 1:30:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Justin, you mad genius, the wing pin is my, I just, I, I could not see it.
• 1:30:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, goodness.
• 1:30:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
• 1:30:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're, uh, that's a 30 in the section.
• 1:30:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 1:30:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we're going to go to trial 0.5 our final one birds of a feather featuring my friend Josh Brackner, the key issues here amazing spider man volume six number seven and eight uncanny spider man one through five member when night crawler was Spidey miles Morales spider man 23 through 26.
• 1:30:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: When Tiana, the granddaughter, learned about the truth of the Vultures crimes, she told him that she could no longer love him.
• 1:30:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: I need to imagine finding out your grandpa's like a mass murdering supervillage, right?
• 1:30:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: And Tum's immediately blamed Spider-Man thinking that he told Tiana the truth.
• 1:30:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, do we know why she started dressing like a bird when she didn't know that her grandpa was the Vulture?
• 1:30:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I'm a little confused.
• 1:30:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: He attacked Spider-Man, flew him high into the air and dropped him, despite Tum's being extra murderous, spitey defeated him.
• 1:31:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Calling himself director-vulture tunes took a position working with Orcus, who are the white supremacist, awful, awful people, running a division that weaponized mutants with technology into hounds.
• 1:31:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: So minorities as weapons, who he would then send after other mutants.
• 1:31:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: While he also managed sentinals who were hunting down mutants, Vulture hired the silver stable in her wild pack to go after night crawler, who was operating as the new Spider-Man for a time, and he turned Feral, Fatal, and Reaper from the Mutant Liberation Front into Hounds, as well as the hero's cloak and dagger, and his old teammate, the rhino.
• 1:31:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: In recruiting to oversee the new project, executive, stern, profilers, identified Adrian Tumes, an engineering technologist, better known as the criminal vulture.
• 1:31:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas he lacks the anti-button sentiment by which most orcas personnel are characterized, his preoccupation with mortality proved fertile.
• 1:31:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: My, which is not a word I needed to hear described.
• 1:31:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: Adrian Tumes is incredible.
• 1:32:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Mild subliminal messaging during interviews fostered a profound sense of bitterness of mutants perceived hoarding of unique, croquant abilities, especially regarding healing, rejuvenation and resurrection.
• 1:32:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: In accepting the role, tunes levied a single pragmatic fee that he'd be permitted to infect himself with a blank strain of TO, unencumbered by the neural logical coding he would develop to control subsequent infectees.
• 1:32:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thus inaugurated, the Hound program has been modeled to present an efficient system by which mutants and their allies can be repurposed to solve the problem of their own existence.
• 1:32:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Field testing is presently underway.
• 1:32:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: In the end, Metcrawler, Mystique, and Silver Sable, who again, Vulture hired her, but she ends up fucking Metcrawler instead.
• 1:32:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: They all turn on the Vulture, who's been planning to dissect Nightcrollers' brain.
• 1:32:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, what happened, Adrian?
• 1:32:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: They rescued Warlock, who had been kept there and weaponized against his will, our little alien new mutant friend.
• 1:33:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture activated his techno-organic enhancements.
• 1:33:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: to fight and he gets big techno organic wings that are so fucking cool and he's ranting about how youth is wasted on the young and then Kurt defeats tombs by stabbing him with the hope sword.
• 1:33:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't worry about it.
• 1:33:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Vulture forced himself back into Tiana's life wanting both to make her see his sight of things.
• 1:33:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a force her to stop dating the younger Spider-Man Miles Morales.
• 1:33:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: As Tiana begged her grandpa to leave her alone, Spider-Man attacked and under the curse of vampirism, don't worry about it again.
• 1:33:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Beat the shit out of the Vulture before Tiana made him stop.
• 1:33:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vulture escaped and put on an updated version of his costume with his wings that fired sharp feathers like R8 Arcangel.
• 1:33:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: And at a key moment in the fight, this steampunk Vulture, it's such a cool design.
• 1:33:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Starling turns against her grandfather, telling him he only has himself to blame for his own problems and culture departs in defeat.
• 1:33:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Josh, the art in all of these books is excellent.
• 1:33:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope you loved reading these.
• 1:34:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let me turn it over to my friend Josh, who's also fertile like here.
• 1:34:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't have three kids that I know of, so I mean, you know, as Ferdel's Mr.
• 1:34:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Tunes.
• 1:34:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, this was a tricky one for me, but I'm going to do my best to play both sides here.
• 1:34:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I will start with the, uh, with the defense.
• 1:34:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, for real, like two of these stories are about, um, one of the spiders men taking away the only support system in this lonely old man's life is Grand Doctor.
• 1:34:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: who we see through a couple of different interactions.
• 1:34:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: He really honestly seems to cherish and care for and love.
• 1:34:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: He calls her my little firecracker.
• 1:34:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's like actually heartbroken when she's like turning against him saying like I can't be with you anymore grandpods.
• 1:34:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't wanna talk to you, you can't be my life anymore.
• 1:34:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like just from the small window into the relationship, we can see it's like actually seem supportive and loving and that it seems very hard for Tiana to say this to him.
• 1:34:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: So Spider-Man robbed both of these people of like a very positive relationship.
• 1:34:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, sure, Vulture has done like crimes and murders and other heinous things, but in the Marvel universe, who hasn't, and Peter Parker didn't really have a right to blab like that if that is how Tiana found out about it.
• 1:35:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, Mr. Tumes does become murderous and violent, and we see him go after Peter Parker with kind of rage and viciousness here to fore unseen.
• 1:35:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think from all these stories, we can tell he kind of suffers from megalomania, narcissism, delusions
• 1:35:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not exactly right in the head in this moment.
• 1:35:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like he has some understandable reactions here.
• 1:35:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: He has a lot of rage that needs to go somewhere.
• 1:35:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, he's pointing in a certain direction.
• 1:35:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, these punk kids just need to leave him alone.
• 1:35:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like these young kids are messing him up.
• 1:35:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: He wants to be left alone.
• 1:35:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: He seems to be content, you know, hanging out in his apartment in New York.
• 1:35:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then like a
• 1:35:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Vampire Spider-Man comes up and attacks him unprovoked just because he can going full force on him in like using as miles himself admits as much power as he's ever used with his venom punch like blowing holes in the floor and like knocking the vulture out like almost biting him in the neck and draining him of of blood like just because miles can't control his vampirism doesn't mean you take it out on an innocent old man and him being the grandfather of your girlfriend makes it also look
• 1:36:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to comment on what he does in the Orcas because the defense is not going to touch that.
• 1:36:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Having mentioned the weaponization against minorities, yes, that's from the wavelength of sentient beings.
• 1:36:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: At this point, the defense just holds up a picture of his director,
• 1:36:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: that's all I got for that section.
• 1:36:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Turning over to the prosecution on what the fuck.
• 1:36:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: So these stories show Voltaugh at his lowest for a couple reasons.
• 1:36:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: One, he's unable to take responsibility for his own actions, like you committed yourself to a life of crime, you dug these holes yourself, and because your granddaughter seems like a very smart woman, like, hold you out on your own shit, you can't take responsibility for your own action and admit when you've done wrong as there's decades of proof of you doing this.
• 1:37:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: with great power, et cetera.
• 1:37:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: And Bolster proves he has not the great power, nor great responsibility.
• 1:37:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: He goes so hard on Peter that he's concerned that he's going to die.
• 1:37:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Peter reaches out to Norman Osborne for helping the S-Norman's good at this point in time, but like whatever.
• 1:37:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: So he doesn't pretty, pretty heinous things.
• 1:37:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's before we get to the collaborating with Orchus thing, as the file notes, Adrian Tum's has no real opinions about mutant kind.
• 1:37:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's just appealing to his own sense of greed, his own twisted sense of ownership and his inability to grapple with his own mortality.
• 1:37:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, he's been 70 something for about 60 years.
• 1:37:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, he's had a pretty good run of it, I'd say, but just because a nation of young people exist, they've solved the problem of mortality, like, he's bitter about it.
• 1:37:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: not even like the Crocodone medicine is enough for him.
• 1:37:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like we got him on page, screaming things like, all you had to do was share it.
• 1:37:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: So like this is the kind of guy who would be upset about black history month or pride parades existing.
• 1:38:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: If he's going after mutants just because they've got things that he does.
• 1:38:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then on top of all that, he mined wipes mutants, turns them into hounds, taking away their free will, turning them into weapons against their own kind.
• 1:38:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: And not even because he has some sort of like moral standing and it because he thinks he's gonna get something out of this.
• 1:38:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: This guy has like, he has no moral compunction other than serving himself, other than trying to solve what is essentially an unsolved bull problem, mortality and death.
• 1:38:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: And being mad at minorities for finally having the goal to stand up for themselves
• 1:38:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think I've laid out the Vultures crimes pretty well.
• 1:38:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: The, this is like Roger Ailes era.
• 1:38:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a rough realization.
• 1:38:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you like Nightcrawler is Spider-Man?
• 1:38:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's kind of a complicated period for Nightcrawler because he's going through some stuff and sort of coping with the badly by like thrill-seeking.
• 1:38:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: But as characters in the comic knowledge, he looks so good in that costume.
• 1:38:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love him and Silver's able to gather as well.
• 1:39:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm assuming it's five from everyone.
• 1:39:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: We could change, let me know in the chat.
• 1:39:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: As we are beginning our wrap-up, I'll do my final score here in a moment.
• 1:39:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: How are we feeling about this character?
• 1:39:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you love him?
• 1:39:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you hate him?
• 1:39:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want more?
• 1:39:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: What's the story you wish you had?
• 1:39:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I, you know, like I said, I love his early appearances.
• 1:39:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of potential in here.
• 1:39:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, the stories that I'm hearing, I haven't read them all, but the stories that I'm hearing he seems really, um, I wish I wanted better for him.
• 1:39:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, when he's, when he's villainous, he's really one note and like really villainous, and I think it works great for the story.
• 1:39:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm really glad I got to hear some about this and it, you know, it helps me put the, the expense stuff, which I was reading or I'm reading regularly and better perspective.
• 1:39:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I understand him a little bit more.
• 1:39:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does it mean I like him anymore?
• 1:39:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And my intro, yes, my name is the same Rashid.
• 1:39:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am a great model, can irregular to the self declared head of our union.
• 1:39:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you'll, we're new, feel free to pay your dues right to me.
• 1:39:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: cash only.
• 1:40:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: He could find me at Hussein where she's dot com both as a website and on a blue sky and on message on I am a slumber Yankee dot message on dot social and not on any of the corporate.
• 1:40:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Socials because I like my privacy but I will catch you all soon.
• 1:40:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope oh and I have a new book coming out in June or I have a short story coming out in an anthology coming out in June on with some futures sold wherever fine books are sold that don't involve big rivers in their store name.
• 1:40:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So please go do that.
• 1:40:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'll score on this guy, 130 out of 150, which gives us an 87% on the asshole scale, which is a perfect place for a Vulture to sit.
• 1:40:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Here's the thought really quickly, for those of you that have watched Breaking Bad, instead of Vulture's Roger Ailes, which I don't love, could we do Vulture as Jonathan Banks?
• 1:40:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Who plays Mike from Breaking Bad, the hitman, he loves his granddaughter and he's kind of scary and understated.
• 1:40:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: I love a Vulture who's like very melodramatic, but it'd be really interesting to see him in a long run of Spider-Man comics as like a featured character in the way that we've had for like Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus where we've really gotten into their heads.
• 1:41:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Even Craven the Hunter has a lot of that, but it'd be really interesting to see like Vulture not as the protagonist, but as a complex
• 1:41:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: longer term villain who has a better longer arc.
• 1:41:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: It would be an interesting thing.
• 1:41:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: The line that his obsession with death has proved fertile to our like right wing agenda.
• 1:41:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: What's this is really telling about this character at the same time though?
• 1:41:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so I think I mean you just touched upon this, uh, who's saying touched upon this like 90% of the time voltage is very one-dimensional which is a
• 1:41:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: important for 32 page comic or whatever the case is, but there's sort of just enough dropped in there about his family, those nuggets of remorse, that if something was sort of devoted to him and a little bit longer form or over more issues or whatnot, he could become a little bit more of an interesting sort of character that doesn't negate his 87% as whole-skid
• 1:41:59
  [SPEAKER_05]: or whatever was just convicted him of, but it is, yeah, I think there's more there to sort of delve into anything.
• 1:42:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's one thing when you're a kid reading comics in the world is black and white and another thing to be an adult and realize that the world, you know, shades of gray, which again doesn't, doesn't make him innocent of all things that he's done, but really to learn more about sort of his motivations instead of just that like, you know,
• 1:42:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, just flesh him out more and make him more of a well-rounded character and villain.
• 1:42:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, as a thought, but he should maybe be put into a prison that he can't break out of so easily or manipulate people instead thinking he's a people old man.
• 1:42:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like also like shame on the rest of the comics, just this community, like why do you keep just giving this guy all the tools he needs to to escape and continue to
• 1:42:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: I want to see some things about the vulture and like the way he approaches, I see him kind of as a bisexual if I'm honest, but these variable motivations and like the obsession with kids, we're not going to go there in a relationship that's obviously, but I think there's some, there's some key characteristics that would make him really fun as a protagonist.
• 1:43:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, agreed for sure.
• 1:43:14
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
• 1:43:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: So my name is Mike my cartoonist and illustrator I live in San Francisco, California.
• 1:43:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: I am an infrequent poster on Instagram.
• 1:43:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: You could find me at billestrader.
• 1:43:25
  [SPEAKER_05]: Mike, I am also the voice of Angel on those Avengers script reads on their dim mountain lane podcast.
• 1:43:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: You mean the champions?
• 1:43:34
  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, the champion.
• 1:43:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry.
• 1:43:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it was the champion.
• 1:43:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just wherever Angel pops up, that's that's me doing his voice.
• 1:43:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I will actually be at SPX, the small cracks expo comics festival in Maryland in September.
• 1:43:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: Probably also will be at San Francisco's Dean fest.
• 1:43:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: I think his labor day weekend, but I will actually post about those on Instagram if you're interested in meeting me.
• 1:44:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: Come say hi.
• 1:44:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, as discussed, Vulture kind of has one or two story beats to him, is either a petty criminal or doing some really vicious stuff.
• 1:44:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think seeing him with his granddaughter gives us the satellite with softer side to him or he's actually carrying like we see he actually cares about another human being.
• 1:44:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think maybe pulling some of his extended family into stories, maybe putting him in a slightly more like advisor role, either like anti-hero oracle or an evil oracle or kind of like cranky Kong, might be sort of interesting where he's like helping people out whether they be reluctantly helping out of a hero, helping out other villains, trying to put things together, putting him more in the background might be kind of cool.
• 1:44:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, the Vulture Wings are iconic and you got to have them bust those out at least once the story arc, but seeing what else he could do, seeing how the rest of his family might influence him like we've never seen his children.
• 1:44:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think is adult children.
• 1:44:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, what's his relationship like with them?
• 1:44:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Does he have a relationship with Tiana's father at all?
• 1:44:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how does he feel about one of his kids marrying a black person?
• 1:45:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we have no insight into that and it might be sort of interesting.
• 1:45:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's definitely fun when he shows up because the costume makes him fun and it's sort of fun just the visuals of Spider-Man But in this like really old guy high above New York City watching the wings and limbs get all tangled together So I'm happy when he shows up even though I know it's gonna be kind of like all right.
• 1:45:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Here we go the same old thing again So can't hate him too much
• 1:45:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I am on both Instagram and Blue Sky on the username Joshington Bear where I post art and random thoughts.
• 1:45:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's start today, then normal because I am very busy, but people will have the chance to see me in person at Flimcon this year, which is August 16th through 18th I believe in Time Square in New York.
• 1:45:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: So come see me there and get some comics for me.
• 1:45:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, we'll get to hang out in person.
• 1:45:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey.
• 1:45:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go Joe and then Justin.
• 1:45:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this was a lot of fun.
• 1:45:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think I do have a kind of a weird fondness for culture, even though, you know, he's definitely not a likable character is pretty despicable most of the time.
• 1:46:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've been watching a lot of the Batman 1960s TV series lately, and he reminds me a lot of those villains, where they're just kind of like,
• 1:46:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to do crime and there's not really a lot of dimension like we do get some more about him as we get, you know, further along in his publication history, but a lot of it is very much like bright crummy kind of like, oh, did you know that he has a granddaughter, oh, did you know that he has like, you know, a son or whatever, and it's like we just get little pieces, but we still don't really have like a full really like well established backstory like we know he has a brother who, you know, was paralyzed and maybe that kind of,
• 1:46:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: has something to do with his mentality about weak.
• 1:46:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't want to be weak.
• 1:46:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he saw his brother like fall from grace and become a very, you know, kind of a weak or down-trying person.
• 1:46:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I don't want to be like that, but we don't really get that interiority with him.
• 1:46:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, if we could get something that kind of ex-
• 1:46:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: floors his motivations a little bit more that might help us to understand the character better.
• 1:46:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think moving forward, I think the story potential of building out his village with Tiana.
• 1:47:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's really like the only family member that we really have that has been fleshed out.
• 1:47:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think where that story ended.
• 1:47:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's still a lot more meat there.
• 1:47:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's still a lot more to unpack.
• 1:47:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be kind of interesting if maybe he was a mentor figure to Tiana like she kind of goes to him is basically like I don't really know how to use this you know suit this starling identity like maybe he could kind of like help her you know kind of develop as a character like maybe she could kind of go into more of like a hero character of her own rather than a supporting character and tombs as a mentor figure would not only help kind of strengthen that relation to each other, but you know kind of give her something as well as a story beat.
• 1:47:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: I really, I get the vibe that she's like the only member of the family that we'll still talk to him.
• 1:47:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, yeah, Grace's grandpa that no one will have anything to do with, she's like the only one that'll give him a chance.
• 1:47:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, even though she keeps saying time and time again, like I don't want you my life, it's like she does kind of I think still want to hold on to that, because like in the miles story, she basically says like, yes, he's my grandpa.
• 1:48:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do love him, but I don't have to like him.
• 1:48:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a, there's something complicated.
• 1:48:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's, there's something definitely you could work with there.
• 1:48:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a writer for AIPT, so you can read my reviews at AIPT.com.
• 1:48:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can follow me at Instagram and BlueSky at Friend of Dazzler.
• 1:48:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I recorded the script rating for Captain Britain recently with Chad.
• 1:48:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when that up so be out, but you can listen to that.
• 1:48:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was always saying Nick Fury and a couple of other characters in that.
• 1:48:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: That was a lot of fun.
• 1:48:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm planning on going to the uncanny experience in Minneapolis later in September.
• 1:48:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So come see me there.
• 1:48:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we can chat about X-Men.
• 1:48:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's so good to see you buddy.
• 1:48:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: In that episode, we've come out at the beginning of July.
• 1:48:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, oh, great.
• 1:48:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So be already out.
• 1:48:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, two times as we get to hang.
• 1:48:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yay.
• 1:48:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
• 1:48:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Finally, Mr. Justin.
• 1:48:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's good to see you, my friend.
• 1:48:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: You too, great.
• 1:48:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: See you all and getting to talk about this character.
• 1:48:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a different.
• 1:48:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: So sometimes I get a character that I don't know.
• 1:48:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes I get new layers of depth to a character that I knew in a different kind of way.
• 1:49:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what happened with the Vulture.
• 1:49:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I end and go and mode off.
• 1:49:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, man, man, never wanted to go that deep though.
• 1:49:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I just, I feel like I, I like the Vulture.
• 1:49:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like him as a character.
• 1:49:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love the animal mentality, the depth in that the, even the visual iconography has designed.
• 1:49:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I enjoy the stories where he evolves his game, where he tries a little something new, where, you know, like the enterprising, the upgrading his suits, the family cohort.
• 1:49:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like he has more potential there.
• 1:49:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to see him take a bigger swing.
• 1:49:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: have motivation that's more than just kind of like that big score to retire on.
• 1:49:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like he's been in the game for so long.
• 1:49:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like what else drives you?
• 1:49:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing?
• 1:49:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: But what's what's your five-year plan?
• 1:49:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, not die.
• 1:49:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's so old.
• 1:49:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
• 1:49:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is great, great character, great time, great conversation, and a lot of fun in the stories you can find me here on trials on script readings, most notably Professor Xavier, and you can find me on the X-Wife podcast with my wife, where we talk about comics, X-Men comics, variety of topics, and you can find me at the uncanny experience in September.
• 1:50:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me maybe a New York Comic Con in October.
• 1:50:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can find me wherever I am, and that's all I'm going to tell you.
• 1:50:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's so fun hanging out with all of you.
• 1:50:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for making this delightful episode with the I can't wait to celebrate this with listeners of the show.
• 1:50:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vultures one of those characters.
• 1:50:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the reason we read comics is because they make us feel good, right?
• 1:50:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, why would I spend this much time producing show if it didn't bring me joy?
• 1:50:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Vultures a character in that, like, sore on category, where every time he shows up on the page, I'm like, yay, like, he's just, he's a fun time.
• 1:50:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we have certain associations with those villains.
• 1:50:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: I enjoy this guy a lot.
• 1:50:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, at the end of every trial, I announce the next.
• 1:50:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: three, which will also feature the themes on the show that are upcoming.
• 1:50:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: So in August, we are going to be doing the trial of Lady of Petrovna or Dark Star with the theme of Dark Force on the show that month.
• 1:51:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: In September, it is the trial of Victor Creed Saber Tooth.
• 1:51:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: And the theme on the Patreon that month is Clos.
• 1:51:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then finally, in October, we are going to do the trial of Eric the Red.
• 1:51:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Remember that guy?
• 1:51:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to talk about Shiar Legends over on the Patreon.
• 1:51:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, can't wait to hang out with all of you again.
• 1:51:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I had such a delightful time.
• 1:51:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Follow the show at Grimmolton under score lane.
• 1:51:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have not ordered my book, Gameorm and Dad, I would very much appreciate it.
• 1:51:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you did, I would love to talk to you about it.
• 1:51:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope it is healing, the reviews, and the experience of pretty sickness have been wonderful.
• 1:51:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have read it, I would love a review on Goodreads.
• 1:51:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It really helps.
• 1:51:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks everybody for support.
• 1:51:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: In August, I'm hosting the next Dream Hawking Lane Retreat.
• 1:51:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: We will have lots of fun things to talk about, and I will be at BlameCon and then at the Uncanny Experience in September.
• 1:51:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
• 1:51:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care of yourselves out there.
• 1:51:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: We will see you back here next week on the Dream Hawking Week show.
• 1:51:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
• 1:52:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: We hope you are enjoying this podcast.
• 1:52:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
• 1:52:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Look for us on Patreon, where we are releasing weekly episodes about obscure characters and facts.
• 1:52:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a great way to participate with the podcast for only just a couple of dollars a month and it helps support what we are doing here.
• 1:52:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, the best way you could help
• 1:52:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Grimmulkin Lane is by sharing and liking and subscribing, but also please leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
• 1:52:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see you back your next time on Grimmulkin Lane.