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DEADLY "THREE-HOUR-CRUISE" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A mom seemingly goes overboard
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Speaker 1: on a pleasure cruise. What really happened? I'm Nancy Grace.
0:24
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious seven one eleven. First
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Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at WPTZ.
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Speaker 1: Around eleven thirty Tuesday morning, Maynall was getting ready for
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Speaker 1: work and her daughter Alyssa, had stopped over for a visit.
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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you heard people get out and
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Speaker 1: they were shouting. That's when they saw multiple vehicles pull
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Speaker 1: into this home on Fort Bridgeman Road in Vernon. They
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Speaker 1: snapped this photo. I saw a record here, a ramp truck,
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Speaker 1: and then there was a sheriff's card here, and then
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Speaker 1: there was summoned in the boat. All the activity happening
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Speaker 1: at the home of Nathan Carman, who's usually quiet at
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Speaker 1: this house, very very quiet neighborhood, beautiful homes, and this
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Speaker 1: family is essentially rolling in money. It's very rare. Have
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Speaker 1: you ever noticed it? Robert Crispin, Private investigator Crispin Special Investigations. Robert,
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Speaker 1: have you noticed the more money in the neighborhood, the
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Speaker 1: less you see the cop cars exactly, exactly. None. You're
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Speaker 1: the investigator, and I was expecting a little more from
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Speaker 1: you than exactly. You're basically like what she just said. No,
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Speaker 1: I think crime is just as ubiquitous in wealthy neighborhoods,
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Speaker 1: but somehow they've managed to keep it quiet. Exactly, you
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Speaker 1: did it again, Crispin. Why are you on the at all?
1:50
Speaker 1: Tell me something, Tell me something I don't know. I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you warrant Nancy. The reason you don't see a
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Speaker 1: bunch of police activity in all these expensive neighborhoods because
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Speaker 1: these people take care of their own problems internally. They
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Speaker 1: have their own a lot of people have their own security,
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Speaker 1: internal forces, there own protection, and they address all these
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Speaker 1: internal family issues or any issues with anybody internally, so
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Speaker 1: it doesn't get out to the public. That's normally why
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Speaker 1: you don't see a lot of stuff. But when it
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Speaker 1: goes down, it goes down big. Yeah. I want to
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Speaker 1: go to Andrew Norris. His specialty mirrortime law. He knows
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Speaker 1: his way around the courtroom. Andrew Norris joining me out
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Speaker 1: of Rhode Island. Andrew, if you go to a regular
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Speaker 1: criminal arrayment calendar, felony court, very rarely do you see
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Speaker 1: a bunch of rich people in there with let's just say,
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Speaker 1: their teen boys, because the rich people will send them
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Speaker 1: off to some kind of a rehab school or a
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Speaker 1: therapeutic school, and everybody else is left to go to gbjail.
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Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed that, Nancy, There's an expression something
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Speaker 1: to the effect to money is the root of all evil.
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Speaker 1: And so now, Andrew, you and I have had this conversation.
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Speaker 1: It's the love of money is the root of all evil.
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Speaker 1: Two's true. It's often at the heart of spectacular case.
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Speaker 1: So what is happening in this wealthy neighborhood where the
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Speaker 1: neighbors are all looking out their windows and oh, dear
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Speaker 1: Lord in Heaven they see a patrol car. Take a
3:22
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at inside edition, he says he
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Speaker 1: survived seven days lost at sea after a tragic boating accident,
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Speaker 1: and his first words on getting home about his mom,
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Speaker 1: who has presumed drowned. And I just want to thank
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Speaker 1: the public for their prayers and for their continuing prayer
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Speaker 1: solf or my mother. But now a twist. Nathan says
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Speaker 1: he was fishing with his mother when their boats started
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Speaker 1: taking on water. The boats dropped out from under my
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Speaker 1: feet when I saw his life raft, I did not
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Speaker 1: see my mom. Have you found her? No, we haven't
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Speaker 1: been able to find her yet, Coast Guard radio responding, No,
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Speaker 1: we haven't been able to find her yet. Now that
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Speaker 1: is a crew that I really respect, the Coastguard. You
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Speaker 1: never hear about scandal or problems. They're out there doing
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Speaker 1: their job every single day. And when they say they
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Speaker 1: can't find her, I believe that they've really looked. Joining
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Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what
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Speaker 1: we know right now. First of all, legal expert in
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Speaker 1: maritime law. He's maritime attorney and consultant with Trade Wind
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Speaker 1: Maritime Services, Inc. And Old Mystic. You can find him
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Speaker 1: at Tradewin Maritime Services dot com. Andrew Norris joining us.
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Speaker 1: He is a professor at the US Naval War College
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Speaker 1: as well. Doctor Kathleen Heidi, psychotherapist and Distinguished University Professor
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Speaker 1: at University of South Florida Department of Criminology. And author.
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Speaker 1: Robert Crispin joining US private investigator. You can find him
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Speaker 1: at Crispin Investigations dot com. Doctor Kendall Crowns with US
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Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth lecturer University Texas,
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Speaker 1: Texas A and M and faculty, University Texas Medical Branch.
5:11
Speaker 1: You know how hard it is to get to be
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Speaker 1: a medical examiner, much less the chief medical examiner. It's
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Speaker 1: not easy. But first I want to go to a
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Speaker 1: special guest joining us from the Brattleborough Reformer at Reformer
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Speaker 1: dot com, Bob Adet, what happened? I'm trying to get
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Speaker 1: my mind around what happened? How? Why was Linda Carman
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Speaker 1: with her son out on? What kind of a vessel was?
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Speaker 1: It was a fishing a boat. It was, you know,
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Speaker 1: not a huge vessel, but it was adequate. Well, first
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Speaker 1: tell me about the vessel. What do we know about
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Speaker 1: the boat? We know it was named the Chicken Park? Okay,
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Speaker 1: what why is it named the chicken Pox? Why would
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Speaker 1: you name your boat after an ailment? Well, I don't,
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Speaker 1: I don't. Nobody has a new boat and it's called
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Speaker 1: owl foxed um. But the you know, she's been out
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Speaker 1: Apparently she'd been out with him before. I'm fishing trips
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Speaker 1: not unusual, so it's not unusual the two of them
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Speaker 1: go fishing. Now, this was September seventeen, and this happened
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Speaker 1: near Martha's vineyard, Rhode Island. How cold would it be
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Speaker 1: out on the water on September seventeen in Rhode Island.
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Speaker 1: I would think it'd be rather cold, and I would
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Speaker 1: think the water temperature, which never really warms up off
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Speaker 1: in New England, was rather cold as well. Jackie, what
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Speaker 1: was the temperature off Block Island? Forty nine is okay?
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Speaker 1: So let me go to doctor Kendall Crowns, joining US
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Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner fort Worth. Doctor Kendall Crowns, if the
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Speaker 1: ambiance air outside is forty nine, what would you expect
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Speaker 1: the temp of the water to be? Usually? When it
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Speaker 1: called out the side like, the temperature of the water
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Speaker 1: will also drop as well, So you'll see fairly cold
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Speaker 1: water matching the outdoor air temperature, if not even colder,
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Speaker 1: especially if it's in a big open ocean area. So
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Speaker 1: at least forty nine degrees would be the answer minus speculation,
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Speaker 1: and you're saying the water would be typically colder than
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Speaker 1: the air. Correct. Okay, So in the forties for a
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Speaker 1: human to go into the water, Doctor Kindle Crowns, let's
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Speaker 1: just go with forty five degrees. How long would it
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Speaker 1: take for human to get hypothermia? Forty five degrees water.
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Speaker 1: It is probably takes several minutes probably on the outside,
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Speaker 1: ten to fifteen, maybe a half hour at most that
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Speaker 1: you're going to cool pretty rapidly. So I'm going to
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Speaker 1: go with fifteen to thirty minutes for hypothermia to set in.
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Speaker 1: And what is hypothermia. Hypothermia is you're basically your body
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Speaker 1: being shut down cold. The cold surrounding it affects your
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Speaker 1: heart rate, it starts slowing it down, and then that
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Speaker 1: causes you to basically become unconscious and then eventually die.
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Speaker 1: So let me understand that the human body is usually
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Speaker 1: at what ninety eight point six? Is that right? That's correct,
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Speaker 1: And to get hypothermia, you have to be at what
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Speaker 1: temp to be officially hypothermic. When you start getting below
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Speaker 1: the nineties, you know you're starting to really get into
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Speaker 1: that hypothermic grande. Really, the body can't can't handle much
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Speaker 1: variation and temperature either way. So once you start getting
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Speaker 1: below ninety, hypothermia begins to set in. And you're saying
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Speaker 1: within thirty minutes you would succumb, Yeah, fifteen, thirty minutes,
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Speaker 1: even maybe ten, it's just a ten, now, is that
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Speaker 1: to get hypo to be hypothermic or to die. I
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Speaker 1: would say to die, you probably start being hypothermic within
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Speaker 1: out five ten minutes, So in thirty minutes and forty
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Speaker 1: degree water, you're dead more likely. Yeah. Have you ever
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Speaker 1: handled an autopsy where someone died of hypothermia? Yeah? Were
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Speaker 1: they in the water or in the air? Both? I
9:19
Speaker 1: knew you were going to say both. I knew that.
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Speaker 1: How many autopsies have you done? Just toss me a
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Speaker 1: number over eight thousand. Probably. I'm gonna quit bragging about
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Speaker 1: my number of jury trials. Okay, that that ends today,
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Speaker 1: right now. Never again. I can't compare to his eight
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Speaker 1: thousand autopsies. So doctor Kenel Crowns, tell me what happens
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Speaker 1: to the body. I mean, how can you look at
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Speaker 1: a body and know the person died of hypothermia. There's
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Speaker 1: a couple of things you can see. You can see
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Speaker 1: these these little dots in the stomach lining. They're called
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Speaker 1: wishnow ski vaulters, but they look like little ten points. Okay,
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Speaker 1: I need to write that down. Andrew Norris, you probably
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Speaker 1: already know this. It's your specialty is maritime law. But
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Speaker 1: this is all new to me. Why didn't you just say,
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Speaker 1: doctor Crowns. So you get these little dots from the stomach.
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Speaker 1: They're called wishno ulcers. Okay, correct, Why do you get ulcers?
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Speaker 1: It's well, they're called wish suskif ulcers. But they're kind
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Speaker 1: of like a little pinpoint hemorrhages throughout the lining. It's
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Speaker 1: just something that they've seen with hypothermia cases. That and
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Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the pancreas is the other kind of soft
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Speaker 1: findings you can see with hypothermia. But the problem is
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Speaker 1: is both those findings can be found in other things,
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Speaker 1: such as diabetes is the main one. And so what
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Speaker 1: it is is you kind of use circumstances and then
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Speaker 1: those findings, those signings with circumstances equal hypothermia. You don't
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Speaker 1: have those findings. And the persons shounting in cold environment again,
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Speaker 1: you can go hypothermia if they have no other cause
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Speaker 1: of death. I don't like that, doctor, I don't like
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Speaker 1: what you just said because you're making it sound like
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Speaker 1: it's kind of a process of elimination. Well, it kind
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Speaker 1: of is. As to the cod cause of death. I
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Speaker 1: wish I hadn't heard that, but I've heard it. But
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Speaker 1: doctor Kennel Crowns say here diabetic, would you have the
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Speaker 1: with schnootsky ulcers in both the pancreas and the stomach
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Speaker 1: or just the pancreas With diabetes the ulcers are only
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Speaker 1: in the stomach and in both hypothermia and diabetes, but
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Speaker 1: it's very uncommon with diabetes that it has been found
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Speaker 1: with it. I also believe that chronic alcoholism it's another one,
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Speaker 1: but it's only in the stomach with diabetes. What you're
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Speaker 1: gonna look for is also you can look at the
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Speaker 1: electrolyte or the glucose level that you get from the
11:44
Speaker 1: victory of taping from the eyeball. Let me refine my question.
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Speaker 1: Say you find a body, a body washes up to
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Speaker 1: shore two weeks later, how could you tell if the
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Speaker 1: person died of hypothermia or they drowned. Well, again, look
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Speaker 1: for those findings that we've talked about, but the main
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Speaker 1: thing is that you would still there'd be no way
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Speaker 1: of saying, well, they got hypothermic and then drowned, or
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Speaker 1: they drowned without hypothermic. If you find those findings, you
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Speaker 1: know you'll be like, Okay, they were probably hypothermic before
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Speaker 1: they drowned. But anybody that lands and water you've got
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Speaker 1: to consider drowning right away. Listen. This is a kind
12:23
Speaker 1: of discussion that happens in every good trial preparation. You've
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Speaker 1: got to be prepared. For instance, if I had doctor
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Speaker 1: Kennel Crowns on the stand on direct exam, I would
12:35
Speaker 1: have to know the answer to all of these detailed
12:38
Speaker 1: questions because if I don't know what, I guarantee you,
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Speaker 1: they're going to bring it up on cross exam and
12:44
Speaker 1: they're gonna ambush me because I won't know what's true
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Speaker 1: or not true, and evans can be twisted to make
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Speaker 1: it appear to be something very different now what it
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Speaker 1: really is. So my niet Sa, the details of what
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Speaker 1: we've just heard with newski ulcers that appear in the
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Speaker 1: stomach when someone has hypothermia, that a trial could actually
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Speaker 1: turn onto minute fat like that time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: In this case, we have just heard the son say
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Speaker 1: I did not see my mom have a founder and
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Speaker 1: coastguard stating we haven't been able to find her yet.
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Speaker 1: So blah blah, Dad. They go out quite a bit
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Speaker 1: fishing alone together. But what about it these cold temperatures.
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Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, but you know the water
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Speaker 1: temperature never really changes, to be honest, So then probably, yes, guys,
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Speaker 1: we are talking about a mom, Linda Carmen, that goes
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Speaker 1: overboard on a fishing trip and to my understanding, her
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Speaker 1: body has never been found. Is that right, Bob, Her
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Speaker 1: body and the boat neither have been found. Okay, guys,
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Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Carmen was on a fishing
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Speaker 1: trip with his mother, Linda Carmen. The boat allegedly started
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Speaker 1: taking on water and sank. Linda Carmen's body was never found,
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Speaker 1: but her son Nathan was rescued from a life raft
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Speaker 1: by a passing ship. The coastguard then brought him back
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Speaker 1: to shore. The boat was never seaworthy, putting the blame
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Speaker 1: on the former owner. Quote, mister Carmen was a young
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Speaker 1: twenty two year old kid with more money than experience.
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Speaker 1: He the former owner of the boat took advantage of
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Speaker 1: him and sold him the boat. Heck, do you, Bob Adett.
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Speaker 1: There are claims that the boat was the problem, that
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Speaker 1: the boat began taking on water. I don't understand how
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Speaker 1: the boat can go down and the boat's never found. Well,
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Speaker 1: there's still discrevicy of where it actually happened. He told
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Speaker 1: folks it happened off a Block Island, but an expert
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Speaker 1: at woods Hall said that it could have never happened
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Speaker 1: there and he could have sunk that in two mile
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Speaker 1: deep water somewhere. So why did the experts say this
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Speaker 1: could never have happened off Block Island? So he filed
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Speaker 1: for an insurance claim and it eventually got denied in court.
15:23
Speaker 1: But another maritime lawyer said that he spoke with folks
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Speaker 1: at woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, which said that if he
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Speaker 1: is his life raft had deployed at Block Canyon, the
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Speaker 1: life raft would not have drifted forty miles southeast, but
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Speaker 1: rather would have drifted in the opposite direction, about forty
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Speaker 1: miles northwest, where coast Guard would have found him on
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Speaker 1: September nineteenth, because that's where they were looking for him. Oh,
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Speaker 1: I get it. To Andrew Norris joining me mere a
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Speaker 1: time expert, lawyer and consultant, actually professor US Naval War College,
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Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, Now I get it. Why one expert said
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Speaker 1: it couldn't happen off Block Island because of the current,
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Speaker 1: the tide would have taken the boat in a different direction,
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Speaker 1: the raft, the rubber raft. Does that make sense? To you, Andrew,
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Speaker 1: it certainly does. So the story would be that the
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Speaker 1: boat sank, he somehow got on the life raft, was
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Speaker 1: a drift for a number of days, and then was recovered.
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Speaker 1: So when the coastguard gets a distress call like this
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Speaker 1: or discovers somebody in the water and does a search,
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Speaker 1: one of the key things that the coastguard does is
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Speaker 1: look for the prevailing currents, the drift patterns, and they
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Speaker 1: actually form a search grid based upon factors like that.
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Speaker 1: So very much the drift, what the water does in
16:54
Speaker 1: the area would would be a central component of the
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Speaker 1: coastguard search. So let understand with me, expert lawyer Andrew Norris. Andrew,
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Speaker 1: you are so familiar, you know these waters, and this
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Speaker 1: type of investigation, like the back of your hand, is
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Speaker 1: what Nathan Carmen sang, happened possible? And I'm including the
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Speaker 1: fact that the boat the Chicken Pox was never found.
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Speaker 1: Is it possible. Yes, it's possible. Boats sink and people
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Speaker 1: sometimes are never found or they're found us some days later.
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Speaker 1: So is it possible. Yes, there are some issues with this.
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Speaker 1: They gotten underway at eleven thirteen pm, as in almost midnight.
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Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Waite. Bob added, they
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Speaker 1: went out fishing at midnight in the boat was not
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Speaker 1: seaworthy according to testimony that was presented as as an
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Speaker 1: insurance trial. Wait did they go out fishing at midnight? Okay,
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Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, what else have you learned? And everybody jump
18:08
Speaker 1: in because that's very significant to me. Hold on, Andrew Norris,
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Speaker 1: I I gotta speak to a shrink. Doctor Kathleen am
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Speaker 1: Heidi is with me, renowned psychotherapist of joining US Distinguish
18:20
Speaker 1: University Professor, University, South Florida. Doctor Heidi, I'm an outdoors person.
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Speaker 1: We love to camp, we love to sleep under the stars,
18:29
Speaker 1: we love to RV, we love to hike the whole shebang.
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Speaker 1: But I do not want to go out on night.
18:38
Speaker 1: Dived once enough to know I did not want to
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Speaker 1: do it again. It takes a unique outdoors person to
18:48
Speaker 1: go out at midnight in forty nine degree temp and hey, Jack,
18:53
Speaker 1: we need to look at that chump again. I bet
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Speaker 1: it dropped by midnight that night. One am. Doctor Kathleen Hide,
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Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time believing this. Well, people do
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Speaker 1: go out at night. In fact, I vote myself at night,
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Speaker 1: and I've worked for many years with the coast guards.
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Speaker 1: So some people go out seriously in terms of you know,
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Speaker 1: fishing and night expeditions. So it is unusual, particularly in
19:23
Speaker 1: that climate. And I would absolutely agree that it's going
19:26
Speaker 1: to be cold and the water is going to even
19:28
Speaker 1: make it more cold. Now, my understanding is that this
19:32
Speaker 1: is a way that the mother tried to spend time
19:37
Speaker 1: with her son. It may strike some of us as unusual,
19:41
Speaker 1: but that is apparently on the record as something the
19:44
Speaker 1: two of them. Did you know, doctor Heidi, you just
19:47
Speaker 1: answered all my questions. Because but my sound was a
19:51
Speaker 1: little boy, I would take him. He loved arcades, the
19:59
Speaker 1: video game all that, the ones where you dance on
20:03
Speaker 1: them and where you swing baseballs, and we would go
20:07
Speaker 1: for hours. The last thing I want to do, well,
20:10
Speaker 1: nearly the last is played video games. But I would
20:13
Speaker 1: do that with him. I've played Mortal Kombat, I've played
20:18
Speaker 1: up where you dig tunnels, Minecraft, everything, all sorts of
20:25
Speaker 1: board game, just you name it. And same thing with
20:28
Speaker 1: my daughter. Now you spoke to my heart. Just then,
20:33
Speaker 1: doctor Heidi, I get it why mom would go out
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Speaker 1: at night. Okay, enough, said Andrew Norris. What else can
20:40
Speaker 1: you tell me? So the mother had apparently filed a
20:44
Speaker 1: float plan, which is shows that it's very responsible boating
20:50
Speaker 1: type activity. So and that Folt plan indicated that they
20:54
Speaker 1: would return by about noon the other day, So it
20:57
Speaker 1: was intended as about a twelve hour tripped mostly at
21:01
Speaker 1: night into the morning, and then returning by noon the
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Speaker 1: next day. Of course, the boat never came back. And further,
21:10
Speaker 1: what the federal prosecutors believe is that Nathan murdered his mother,
21:19
Speaker 1: then at some later point sank or otherwise disposed of
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Speaker 1: the boat, and then was gotten into life, wrapped himself
21:28
Speaker 1: and was found and rescued. So the theory at least
21:31
Speaker 1: that he murdered his mother intentionally and by gun chatter
21:37
Speaker 1: or however, and then disposed the boat and was later rescued.
21:43
Speaker 1: So that is a suspicion. Something that Bob Odette said
21:47
Speaker 1: earlier regarding the insurance company, it's absolutely correct. Take a
21:52
Speaker 1: listen to our friend Jennifer Egan, she's ad WCVB. The
21:56
Speaker 1: insurance company's attorney asked Carmen about his mother quote she
21:59
Speaker 1: did scream when the boat fell out from underneath her,
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Speaker 1: to which Carmen replied, I did not hear a scream.
22:05
Speaker 1: Carmen mentioned his mother and his email to the insurance
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Speaker 1: company writing quote, I did not see my mom after
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Speaker 1: the boat sank, though I looked around and called out
22:14
Speaker 1: for her while I was in the water and after
22:15
Speaker 1: getting on board the life raft. Carmen was rescued by
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Speaker 1: a passing cargo ship and brought to shore by the coastguard.
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Speaker 1: The insurance company hasn't paid Carmen's claim on the Chicken Fox,
22:25
Speaker 1: saying alterations he made to the boat before the fishing
22:28
Speaker 1: trip voided the policy. Wow, so many questions now to
22:32
Speaker 1: Bob Adet, what alterations did the sun make to the boat?
22:37
Speaker 1: He removed some sort of a cloak four plots actually
22:41
Speaker 1: and actually made the holes bigger. And then when he
22:45
Speaker 1: repaired them, he didn't do it to efects that would
22:48
Speaker 1: ensure that the boat wouldn't take on water. So waitute
22:51
Speaker 1: he altered the holes in the bottom of the boat,
22:56
Speaker 1: which would have allowed water to come up into the boat,
23:00
Speaker 1: the boat to take on water unless the plugs worked accurately.
23:04
Speaker 1: Is that right? And there's really no understanding why he
23:07
Speaker 1: would even make that sort of alteration to what was
23:10
Speaker 1: before the alteration the seaworthy boat. How many days had
23:15
Speaker 1: the sun been floating in the water. Nathan Carmen. How
23:18
Speaker 1: many days had he been floating in the life raft?
23:21
Speaker 1: Nathan had been in the life raft for about a
23:23
Speaker 1: week and when they rescue him, he definitely looked like
23:27
Speaker 1: he'd been in a life raft for a week. Did
23:29
Speaker 1: he have any provisions on the life raft of food
23:32
Speaker 1: or water? Apparently he had thirty days worth of food
23:34
Speaker 1: and water on the lifecraft. Okay, let me go to
23:37
Speaker 1: our lawyer or Andrew Norris maritime expert. He had thirty
23:41
Speaker 1: days of food in water supplies on the life raft.
23:46
Speaker 1: Is that normal? Yeah, And so that's again the sign
23:50
Speaker 1: of that that's a well planned and in terms of
23:57
Speaker 1: having a lifecraft of that capability aboard and that amount
24:01
Speaker 1: of provisions, that's a sign of responsible voting. What really
24:05
Speaker 1: strikes me as odd about all this, though, is the
24:08
Speaker 1: fact that it that he was supposedly a drift for
24:13
Speaker 1: six days. He was ultimately recovered on September the twenty fifth.
24:16
Speaker 1: It looks like the Coastguard even suspended its search for
24:20
Speaker 1: him and for his mother and for the vessel the
24:22
Speaker 1: day before they were rescued. So six days of Coastguard
24:26
Speaker 1: searching couldn't find them. They're not that far offshore, so
24:30
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me and really struck me as
24:35
Speaker 1: unusual that it took so long for him to be recovered.
24:39
Speaker 1: Makes you wonder exactly where the boat was. That's another
24:43
Speaker 1: careious aspect of the case to me. You know, Nancy,
24:46
Speaker 1: if I can jump in a little bit about this
24:47
Speaker 1: whole boat situation, is this you Crispin's Kristen go ahead,
24:51
Speaker 1: So so much of this boat is so important for
24:53
Speaker 1: the modifications that happened to the boat and Wider's boat
24:56
Speaker 1: went down, and to understand how a boat actually operates
25:00
Speaker 1: other than just floating on the water, and understanding when
25:02
Speaker 1: people are starting to do modifications, there's intentional things that
25:06
Speaker 1: you do are going to sink your boat. The trim
25:10
Speaker 1: tabs were taken off. What are trim tab well, trim
25:13
Speaker 1: tabs are the things that are in the back of
25:14
Speaker 1: the boat and you can adjust them by a switch
25:16
Speaker 1: when you're driving as the captain to bring the bill
25:19
Speaker 1: up and down. Those trim tabs are held on by screws.
25:23
Speaker 1: If those screws are one or two of those screws
25:25
Speaker 1: come out, you're going to start to get a leak
25:27
Speaker 1: into your billage. That's the back of the boat. The
25:30
Speaker 1: second thing is he also took out he took out
25:34
Speaker 1: the bulkhead. What's the bulkhead. A bulkhead is goes from
25:38
Speaker 1: starboard to port or left to right, and it's a
25:42
Speaker 1: support beam for that boat. If that is not there,
25:46
Speaker 1: that that boat, when it's underway, is going to start
25:48
Speaker 1: to flex and it's going to start to let that
25:51
Speaker 1: boat cracked. Also, according to the indictment, it talks about
25:55
Speaker 1: he replaced that bilge pump a build trump is a
25:59
Speaker 1: pump that automatically kicks on. It's hot wired whether your
26:03
Speaker 1: boat or where your boat is on or off, and
26:06
Speaker 1: it kicks him and it kicks the water out of
26:08
Speaker 1: the build so your motor can keep going. One of
26:10
Speaker 1: his statements are he looked in there and it was
26:12
Speaker 1: filling with water. So understanding, when a boat goes down,
26:16
Speaker 1: they do go down quick. I have seen it. I've
26:19
Speaker 1: investigated them, and these boats do go down quick. But
26:22
Speaker 1: if you're underway or you're fishing, you're starting to notice
26:26
Speaker 1: a change in the boat, and you're going to start
26:29
Speaker 1: to see things are wrong, and then you're going to
26:31
Speaker 1: start to take a basive action for that, he admits
26:35
Speaker 1: that he never checked to see if that bilge pump
26:38
Speaker 1: worked or not. His own statement is pointing to this
26:42
Speaker 1: is an intentional act. I don't know why you would
26:44
Speaker 1: remove the bilge pump. Ever, I'm not a great editor,
26:48
Speaker 1: but I know that much. And let me remind everybody
26:51
Speaker 1: about a previous case we covered of Angelica Griswold, who
26:56
Speaker 1: sent her fiance out on the water in the Hudson
27:00
Speaker 1: River and then it was later learned that she pulled
27:04
Speaker 1: the plug. That phraseology, that adage is real. You pull
27:09
Speaker 1: the plug on something. It's like pulling the plug out
27:11
Speaker 1: of the bottom of the boat and it fills up
27:13
Speaker 1: with water and you all go down. Now take a
27:16
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition. The Coast Guard
27:20
Speaker 1: had questions. Look, how remarkably fit he appeared after seven
27:23
Speaker 1: days lost at sea. And there's this witness who says
27:27
Speaker 1: Nathan and his mom were not prepared for a fishing trip.
27:30
Speaker 1: I didn't see any fishing poles. I didn't even see
27:33
Speaker 1: him with food. Why would you go on a fishing
27:35
Speaker 1: trip without poles. It's starting to look worse and worse
27:41
Speaker 1: for him. Time stories with Nancy Grace, guys for those
28:03
Speaker 1: of you just joining us. A young man and his
28:06
Speaker 1: mom go out on a nighttime cruise which is in disaster.
28:12
Speaker 1: Neither the mother nor the ship have ever been found.
28:17
Speaker 1: Listen to this. The case has generated wide interest. Carmen's
28:21
Speaker 1: aunts have accused him of murdering his grandfather in twenty
28:24
Speaker 1: thirteen and then killing his mother in an attempt to
28:27
Speaker 1: collect a seven million dollar inheritance. And the attorney also
28:31
Speaker 1: asked Carmen why he didn't radio for help when he
28:33
Speaker 1: noticed that the boat was taking on quite a bit
28:35
Speaker 1: of water. Carmen said that he had an aversion to
28:38
Speaker 1: doing so unless he felt he was in real danger.
28:41
Speaker 1: That attorney, though, pointed out that he had called for
28:43
Speaker 1: help one time before. Okay, how does the grandfather fit
28:48
Speaker 1: into this? What happened to the grandfather? Bob Audette and
28:52
Speaker 1: I'm talking about John cho Is it Chocolo's or Chicolo's
28:58
Speaker 1: What happened to him? Well? Three years he was murdered
29:01
Speaker 1: into his bed while he was sleeping, shot apparently with
29:06
Speaker 1: a six hour rifle in Windsor, Connecticut. How many times
29:09
Speaker 1: has you shot? At least twice? Is my understanding? Now,
29:13
Speaker 1: you were just hearing our friends at wcvby. Now take
29:17
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition speaking of
29:19
Speaker 1: the grandfather. Nathan is now facing a firestorm of questions
29:23
Speaker 1: with the revelation that he was a suspect in the
29:26
Speaker 1: shooting death of his eighty seven year old grandfather, John Shakalos.
29:30
Speaker 1: Jackalos was well known locally for the elaborate Christmas decorations
29:33
Speaker 1: at his palatial estate in New Hampshire. The last person
29:37
Speaker 1: to see him alive Nathan Carmen, his missing mom, fifty
29:42
Speaker 1: four year old Linda Carmen, inherited his forty million dollar
29:45
Speaker 1: estate with her siblings. Here's Stephen Fabian. Police here in
29:49
Speaker 1: Connecticut where the grandfather was slain, actually drew up an
29:53
Speaker 1: arrest warrant for Nathan almost three years ago, but the
29:56
Speaker 1: young man was never arrested or charged. This person killed
30:00
Speaker 1: at least once that we know of. This person's gotten
30:03
Speaker 1: away with murder, and chances are it will happen again. Okay,
30:08
Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, that breaks my heart. I remember, here's just
30:12
Speaker 1: one example. When you're in Vanderslute got away with murdering
30:18
Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway at that time, predicting that he would kill again.
30:24
Speaker 1: Five years to the day, he kills Stephanie Tasiana Flores.
30:28
Speaker 1: Here you have Andrew Norris. Andrew Norris, high profile lawyer
30:32
Speaker 1: joining me out of Rhode Island. He's professor US Naval
30:36
Speaker 1: War College. You have the family saying, whoever killed our
30:40
Speaker 1: grandfather is going to kill again? Now you've got the
30:44
Speaker 1: mother dead. Why was it he arrested then an indictment
30:48
Speaker 1: had been drawn up? What we're wrong? You know, the
30:51
Speaker 1: DA hasn't really spoken about it much, but I would
30:53
Speaker 1: think that you know, there was no murder weapon found,
30:56
Speaker 1: and I think that probably they were worried if they
30:58
Speaker 1: took it to trial, that piece of evidence being missing
31:02
Speaker 1: would derail the whole thing. Well, you know many cases
31:06
Speaker 1: have been tried without the murder weapon Robert Crispin. Why
31:10
Speaker 1: would they not go forward with what they had? Because
31:12
Speaker 1: I think it goes even further when they did the
31:14
Speaker 1: search warrant at his house and they found out that
31:16
Speaker 1: he took the GPS out of his truck and he
31:18
Speaker 1: also took the mart drive out of his computer, So
31:21
Speaker 1: we're not going to find any more physical effort, any
31:23
Speaker 1: more electronic evidence that would have helped. But to me,
31:26
Speaker 1: that's even is right there. Why would you take If
31:28
Speaker 1: somebody told me to go take the GPS out of
31:31
Speaker 1: my minivan, I would have to go look it up
31:33
Speaker 1: on Google to figure out how to do it. What
31:35
Speaker 1: person takes to removes the GPS from their vehicle at
31:39
Speaker 1: the time their grandfather is murdered, he's an air to
31:43
Speaker 1: multi millions of dollars. I mean, bob Ordette. The home
31:48
Speaker 1: where the grandfather lives looks like a government building. It's huge.
31:53
Speaker 1: And tell me about that gigantic Christmas light display they
31:56
Speaker 1: put on every year. So this was his second home.
31:59
Speaker 1: Actually was on Spoffored Lake, which is a pretty ritzy
32:02
Speaker 1: place in the Hampshire, and it recently sold for three
32:05
Speaker 1: point seven million dollars. Have been on the market since
32:08
Speaker 1: John's death. Yeah, he would deck that thing out with
32:12
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars for Christmas lights every year,
32:15
Speaker 1: and he would encourage people to come by and look
32:17
Speaker 1: and donate bags of food to the local food shelter.
32:20
Speaker 1: And that's the grandfather that was murdered in his sleep. Yes,
32:24
Speaker 1: And then the prosecutor chose not to do anything, to
32:28
Speaker 1: just sit back on his thumb do nothing. And now
32:32
Speaker 1: the mother, the grandfather's daughter. Okay, guys, we're trying to
32:37
Speaker 1: figure out what happened. But I want to go to
32:40
Speaker 1: doctor Kathleen m. Heidi joining us renounced psychotherapist. Doctor. You
32:46
Speaker 1: actually wrote a book called Understanding Pariside, When Sons and
32:50
Speaker 1: Daughters kill parents and why kids kill parents? Why do they? Well?
32:58
Speaker 1: For my research and nical practice, there really are four ways,
33:03
Speaker 1: and I'll sell them out quickly. You know, some kids
33:06
Speaker 1: kill their parents because of long standing abuse, and they're
33:10
Speaker 1: basically desperate or they're in fear of their lives and
33:13
Speaker 1: they want to end the abuse. So that's the severely abused.
33:17
Speaker 1: The second I refer to as a severely mentally ill
33:20
Speaker 1: child or parasite offender. They're individuals who killed because of
33:24
Speaker 1: severe mental illness, usually long standing and documented, and so
33:30
Speaker 1: that would be something like the psychosis. Typically. A third
33:36
Speaker 1: type are the dangerously anti social, and these are individuals
33:41
Speaker 1: who killed because of a very selfish reason, such as
33:50
Speaker 1: getting money, getting freedom, something of that nature. And the
33:56
Speaker 1: fourth type are those who kill because they're enraged, oftentimes
34:01
Speaker 1: with their parents. That may be longstanding and something sets
34:05
Speaker 1: it off, often fueled by alcohol or drugs. So those
34:09
Speaker 1: are four primary pathways or motivations. Why individuals, both juveniles
34:17
Speaker 1: or children, adolescents, and adults kill parents. So it's been
34:22
Speaker 1: narrowed down to those four general reasons. But to murder
34:29
Speaker 1: unless it's in self defense or unless you've been a
34:31
Speaker 1: long time abuse victim, which is in my mind much
34:36
Speaker 1: the same. Why is the alternative murder? I mean, this
34:41
Speaker 1: guy right here, Nathan Carmen, who declares he's innocent, he's
34:45
Speaker 1: a grand man, he's almost thirty years old. Why not
34:48
Speaker 1: just go out and make a living. I mean, take
34:49
Speaker 1: a listen to grace a feinerman our cut two wmu
34:54
Speaker 1: R listen to this. According to the indictment, Carmen got
34:57
Speaker 1: around five hundred and fifty thousand dollars counts it up
35:00
Speaker 1: by his grandfather as a result of the murder. Three
35:04
Speaker 1: years later, Carmen's accused of planning a fishing trip with
35:07
Speaker 1: his mother, Linda Carmen, only to kill her after leaving
35:10
Speaker 1: the marina. The indictment says Carmen reported the boat's sank
35:13
Speaker 1: and his mother disappeared at sea. He was rescued off
35:16
Speaker 1: the coast of Martha's Vineyard. In July of twenty seventeen,
35:19
Speaker 1: The executor of Carmen's grandfather's estate filed an action in
35:22
Speaker 1: New Hampshire Probate Court claiming he killed John and Linda,
35:26
Speaker 1: this trying to prevent Carmen from benefiting from their deaths.
35:29
Speaker 1: Throughout this process, the indictment says he provided false information
35:33
Speaker 1: to law enforcement. False information to law enforcement. What would
35:37
Speaker 1: that be? Bob all dad basically lying about everything about
35:41
Speaker 1: the circumstances behind his grandfather's death, death, about the boat,
35:45
Speaker 1: about the thinking, about what happened to his mother. He
35:48
Speaker 1: lied about it all, according to the indictment, I'm wondering,
35:52
Speaker 1: Andrew Norris, whether the circumstances surrounding the grandfather's death will
35:57
Speaker 1: come in in the trial regarding his mother's death. What
36:01
Speaker 1: do you think, Well, it certainly would. And the interesting
36:04
Speaker 1: thing is, so he's charged with eight counts. Seven of
36:09
Speaker 1: them are fraud related. One is the account for murder.
36:14
Speaker 1: And it should be pointed out that if convicted of
36:19
Speaker 1: murder in the first degree, the punishment is life in
36:23
Speaker 1: prison or death. So first degree murder is capital offense.
36:27
Speaker 1: Second degree murder is punishable up to life in prison.
36:31
Speaker 1: What makes something first degree murder versus second Well, but
36:35
Speaker 1: principally that it's malice the foe thought that it was planned,
36:40
Speaker 1: and so the evidence of the planning for the killing
36:44
Speaker 1: of his mother is what he is what will be
36:47
Speaker 1: relevant in his trial. But I would think that in
36:51
Speaker 1: proving that he the planning element of his mom, that
36:56
Speaker 1: this wasn't just an accident, the prosecutors would also be
36:59
Speaker 1: attempted to bring in evidence showing this sort of continued
37:04
Speaker 1: plan by him to further the case that he committed
37:09
Speaker 1: first degree murder in this particular case. I mean, the
37:11
Speaker 1: guy just got almost a million dollars nearly six hundred
37:15
Speaker 1: thousand dollars already. What he can't be happy with? That?
37:20
Speaker 1: Did he have to kill his mother to get all
37:22
Speaker 1: of her millions? Take a listen to our cut six WCVB.
37:27
Speaker 1: Nathan Carmen and his attorney are seen here arriving this
37:30
Speaker 1: morning at Federal Court in Providence, shortly before opening statements
37:34
Speaker 1: began in the civil case brought against Carmen by the
37:37
Speaker 1: insurance company for his sunken boat Chicken Pox. Carmen filed
37:41
Speaker 1: an eighty five thousand dollars claim for the loss of
37:43
Speaker 1: the boat. The insurance company has rejected that claim. During
37:47
Speaker 1: opening statements this morning, the attorney for the insurance company
37:50
Speaker 1: told the judge hearing the bench trial, quote, this is
37:53
Speaker 1: a case about a boat that left Point Judith with
37:55
Speaker 1: holes in it and sank twelve hours later. The plaintiffs
37:59
Speaker 1: claimed that Carmen made modifications to the thirty one foot
38:02
Speaker 1: vessel that voided the insurance policy, saying, quote, he made
38:05
Speaker 1: it unseaworthy. Listen that that boat went down so fast.
38:09
Speaker 1: I suspect that that boat probably went down within the
38:11
Speaker 1: first ten or fifteen minutes out that in much that's
38:14
Speaker 1: a fast sinking problem right there. We also should point
38:16
Speaker 1: out that half million dollars was pretty much gone by
38:19
Speaker 1: the time he put off from tour. What happened to
38:22
Speaker 1: all that money? Way? Somehow? I mean, who the hell knows?
38:26
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't he living at homeland? Mommy? My understanding
38:30
Speaker 1: was no, he has a house in Vernon as his
38:32
Speaker 1: own house. Nathan owned that house. According to tax tax records,
38:35
Speaker 1: that house belonged to Nathan in Vernon. What house belonged
38:40
Speaker 1: to him? The house in Vernon where he was arrested,
38:43
Speaker 1: and was that once part of his grandfather's estate. As
38:47
Speaker 1: far as I'm seeing tax records online, he held the deed.
38:51
Speaker 1: Nathan held the deed right, was it bequeathed to him?
38:55
Speaker 1: Did it? Was it once part of the grandfather's estate?
38:57
Speaker 1: I M no. I believe he Nathan bought that after
39:01
Speaker 1: So it says that he bought it in October twenty fourteen,
39:05
Speaker 1: would be a little less than a year after his
39:07
Speaker 1: grandfather was murdered. What were you saying, doctor Heidie. I
39:10
Speaker 1: wanted to point out, Nancy, so you're aware of it.
39:14
Speaker 1: You mentioned he was twenty eight years old. He is now.
39:18
Speaker 1: When he killed the grandfather, he would have been about
39:21
Speaker 1: I think nineteen or twenty and the mother about twenty two,
39:26
Speaker 1: so he was younger. Not to say that that exonerate Kim,
39:29
Speaker 1: it clearly doesn't, but it'll bring in issues of brain
39:32
Speaker 1: development and in terms of his awareness of the consequences.
39:38
Speaker 1: So let me understand something, doctor Heidie. This is the
39:41
Speaker 1: guy who just got nearly six hundred thousand dollars and
39:44
Speaker 1: he still wants more money. That's what it appears to be.
39:49
Speaker 1: I mean, let's put it this way. If he isn't
39:51
Speaker 1: involved in orchestrating the deaths of his grandfather and father,
39:57
Speaker 1: it's quite possible that it was done for a finance
40:00
Speaker 1: chell motives and greed, and I've had cases where offspring
40:06
Speaker 1: have killed parents to basically hasten their inheritance. I mean
40:11
Speaker 1: that Amasi of the Menendez brothers yea perfect example. Though
40:16
Speaker 1: they claimed they were molested by the father, why she
40:19
Speaker 1: the mother too? She was crawling down the hall trying
40:21
Speaker 1: to get away to bab Bodet. Where does the trial stand?
40:25
Speaker 1: The Queen will trials stand right now? The judge detained
40:29
Speaker 1: him until detention hearing on May sixteenth, and prosecution urged
40:34
Speaker 1: the judge to have a mental health evaluation between now
40:38
Speaker 1: and then. We wait as justice unfolds. Can this murder
40:44
Speaker 1: case be proven not only without a boat, but without
40:48
Speaker 1: the mother's body. Why would an adult son murder his
40:54
Speaker 1: own mother and his grandfather? We wait as justice and
41:00
Speaker 1: false Nancy Grace Crime's toy signing up good bye to
41:08
Speaker 1: h