Latest / Scam Goddess / Dungeons, Dragons, and Demonic Delu-lu w/ Sarah Marshall

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Dungeons, Dragons, and Demonic Delu-lu w/ Sarah Marshall · Scam Goddess

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Scam, Come Fro, Scam, Come.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Rob fr Goddess, w was Pop and Congregation. It's your girl,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Lacey Mosley aka Scam God. It's back for the podcast
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: all about robbery, fraud and those who practice it.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, it is a comedy show.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Just like to remind you guys sometimes because you'll be
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: seeing me on TV doing true crime and then when
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I'm an unseerious lady, y'all get a little match y'all,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: get in those comments and do those Apple reviews. If
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: you want to do some activism today, give a black
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: woman five stars. You then you can feel good about
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: yourself talk about it at dinner parties. So today I'm
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: super what, Yes, excited, thrilled, elated to have one of
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the most fantastic guests that we've ever had on.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: The show back again.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: She's a journalist, a writer, a podcaster, and she's the
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: host of I Know, y'all know this podcast You're wrong about,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: a podcast where she reconsiders an event, person, or phenomenon
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: that's been miscast in the public imagination. Oh, I've learned
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: so many things, And most recently, she just dropped an
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: eight part series where she dives in and explores the
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: tangled web of the Satanic Panic, taking you everywhere from Victoria,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: BC to Rule, Kentucky. On the podcast The Devil You
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Know was Sarah Marshall. That's the podcast The Devil You Know. Congregation,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: please welcome back this genius.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Gal Sarah Marshall to the show.
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Hi, Sarah, Hi, I'm so happy to be here. I
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: also have a little cold, so I'm gonna be making
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: some unholy sounds over here. And it's just me. It's
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: not demons.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: It's not demons. I feel like that's what they say before,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: it's demons. It's like, it's not demons.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: I mean sometimes when you do one of these shows,
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: you know, you bring something back from the other side.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I might be pulling up on you.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: Not really in this case. No, never, No. If you
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: see something behind me that looks like one of those
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: stop motion guys from Ghost, that's the demons.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I am gonna pay attention because you were talking about
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: their story and they might want to have comments, they
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: might have rebuttals. But I'm also a little tired too,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: because I'm shooting right now in Ireland. This is the
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: last week here, Y'all'm about to be back in the
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Ghetta aka America.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: But you know.
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: You're so drand without you as best we can, it's
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: not great.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Oh goodness, gracious, is so we so down bad? The
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: government is scamming is so hard on every angle in front.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: That was one thing I didn't realize about Ireland was
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: like I got to take off two stressors. People being
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: racist to me and the stress of being an American
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: floated off my back and I was like.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, but yeah, I'm coming back. I'm coming back to
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: the hood.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: But Sarah, we always ask on this show, what is
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: your relationship with scamsy you love them?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Do you hate them?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Is there any particular sam right now that you're really
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: interested in? It could literally be anything.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Well, first of all, thank you for coming back to
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: this scary country and be I forget what I've said
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: in the past, but I would say right now, I
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: love a harmless scam. And I feel like scams are
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: called scams often by the people who who write the laws,
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: and so what qualifies as a scam is very different
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: based on who's in charge. But this is like not
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: I don't think this counts as a scam. But I
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: was watching something recently about lawn chair Larry. You know
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: the guy who I think in the early eighties, somewhere
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: in the eighties connected a bunch of weather balloons to
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: a lawn chair and then flew up into airspace. I
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: don't think that's a scam exactly, but I think that
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: the well, speaking of problems in flight traffic control, oh,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: that's you know, someone using some simple technology to end
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: up in a place that they weren't supposed to be.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Well, I may make a clumsy Satanic
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Panic connection if I may, which is that one of
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: the really compelling things about the Satanic Panic is that
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: these were you know, we had a lot of cases
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: with basically no actual evidence, certainly no physical evidence, but
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: that many of which still made it to trial, and
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: some of which made it, you know, to ruining actual
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: lives be either you know, securing a conviction or just
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: you know, you can end up stuck in the legal
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: process in a way that even if you're quitted later,
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: it's still pretty much was going to mark you.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: And if you had to go to prison while you
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: waited or jail while you waited, you know, like that
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: whole situation is going to traumatize you, like you're not
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: going to come out the same Our jails aren't about rehabilitation.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Is slavery great?
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're going to make some nice picnic tables for
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: the people of the rest areas and at best, And
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I guess I'm going to try and maybe say this
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: at the start and then see at the end if
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: you buy it that the Satanic Panic is one of
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: the greatest scams in American legal history because it involved
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: basically exploiting the weaknesses in our legal system, among other things,
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: by just kind of throwing the idea of the devil around,
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: and a lot of those weaknesses we haven't really attempted
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: to patch up since they were revealed by these cases.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: And so I think, you know, the Satanic Panic is
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: not one of the fun scams of history, but it is.
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: I do think it is one, and was one even
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: for people who who believed it, because then there's a
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: question of certainly, if you're in an MLM, are you
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: both a scammer and a scammy? And does that work
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: with conspiracy theories too, where you're kind of selling a
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: story at a certain point. So, yeah, those are the
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: muddle thoughts of this lady.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: And I mean Satanic Panic being a scam definitely registers
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: with me. And the way the scam works so well
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: is because there's such great branding. Because if we are
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: not like the devil, like the word devil is just
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: chef's kiss. Why it's just as scary because if we
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: caught him like the Boogeyman or missed the fire monster,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't be as serious to us. But the devil
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: that just that frampus, Yeah, crepus. Don't hit crepus, don't
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: hit like that. No.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Well, and also it's like, and I don't believe in
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: the devil at all, Like I was raised very secularly,
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: and so I kind of I'm like I would believe
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: in God way before I would believe in the devil,
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: and so it just it's always felt very academic to me.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: But as a as a concept, like if it's if
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: you give me a devil's food cake or a horror
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: movie with devil in the title, or just devil egg, Yeah,
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: a deviled egg. That's so much better than a regular
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: hard boiled egg. It is just good branding.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It's extremely good branding. And I do agree with you.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in the devil. I do hold some
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: belief in God because I'm a betting man. And what's heart,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: what's the harm in believing? Now that book that the
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: mayn Road, the book that the may and Road. I'm
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: a little skeptical, but but you know, like why not
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: believe in the higher power? And if I get up there,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I was with Krishna, I was with God.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: I was with you know, if you want to call them,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: allem doing a lot like I'm just trying to be
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: in the clerk, you know, so I'm telling whatever. And
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: if it's not, then what harm was it? Because I
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: didn't use it to harm people, which is what America
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: loves to do.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: Right. We see everything as like how can this be
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: made into a weapon. We'll figure it out.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Just give us yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out. Chewing
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: gum no, no, no, no, give me enough of it.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: I can choke somebody to dam.
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: Like MC guy or something here.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the bigger scams.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And I try not to get to political on this podcast,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: but at the time that we're recording this, like the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: government shutdown is about to end, and one of the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: biggest scams to me is that democrats like old corporate democrats,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: who's like big corporations have their hands in their pockets
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: just like they have them in Republican pockets.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: We're seeing them sell us out and try to sell
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: us hope and change. Like baby, we're out here.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: We see these prices, We watch these videos of ice
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Afrika havoc, and they were paid during the government shutdown
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: because they're essential.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Also, why can they wear gator masks? Like, can we
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: be for real?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: If you're gonna be in trash, let me see your
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: whole face, mister trash man.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: It's a scam.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: I'm tired of being getting lip service from the people
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: that I voted for. And I really just think, and
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: this might get me put on a list, but this
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: is what I'm saying.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying we use it, but I'm just saying.
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: Like, what if we wield in a few guillotines just
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: in front of Congress in the White House just for
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: display to be like remembered, you work for the people
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: I love.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: This is an art piece too. What if it's Yeah,
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: what if it's a nice museum very close to all
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: these government buildings just has a big exhibit called the
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: Lost Art of the Guillotine.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's purely artistic.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Now there's's a guy who comes and sharpens it on Thursdays,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: but it is.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: Just as a history piece.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: So yues as you're voting, maybe you can hear him
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: sharpening his blade and like, maybe we don't cut that one.
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: I mean speaking a fear of scams, right, this idea
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: of like, well, what if we give a free lunch
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: to a kid who doesn't really need it, It's like, well,
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: I'm okay with that.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: I'm fine with that.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you think about how much we spend in the military,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: You think about how much we give away to other
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: countries who are like we have bested interest in and
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: it's like, I'm tired of America telling me that we
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: don't have McDonald's money.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: We definitely have health care money, and they're like, now.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: He broke, we broke, we broke.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I thought that we What do you make? Right?
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: America is like your white collar dad who goes out,
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: like spends all his money on Ponzi schemes and then
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: calls you extravagant for wanting you know, something off that
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: something not on the dollar menu, And it's like if
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: you hadn't been getting scammed, all day you might just
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: be able to buy the full price nuggets.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: And I just want people to remember that it's our money,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: like it's money at the end of the day. Girl.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Like the government is supposed to be here to just
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: like make infrastructure, help like organize the money so we
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: have the healthcare and the food and the support that
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: the community needs. And everybody. Oh, I hate that scam
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: of just aspirational billionaires who are in a social class
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: that we will never be able to climb up out of it.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: And it hurts me.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: But I don't want to get too deep into that
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: because I will cry.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: If we start crying, we'll never stop, and then it'll become,
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: you know, a whole bronte kind of a thing. We
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: gotta get soldier on.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so we are going to soldier on And
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: today the Historic Hoodwink ties into Sarah's most current podcast.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: This spotlights the satanic panic over the game of Dungeon
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and Dragons, which is funny to me. It's dungeons and draggings.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I took that s off because
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: normally I add ass because I'm black, But.
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: I like it. You're doing that's your royalty free version,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: just one dungeon, right.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: So they don't sue us. Don't sue us, mister dungeon.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I feel like nerds play. Yeah, I'm gonna call y'all nerds.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I'm a nerd too, okay. I if you know my lor,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: you know I'm a nerd. But nerds being something that
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: was labeled satanic to me is very funny because these
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: guys are literally doing make the most. They cannot catch
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: your break, right, like leave them alone first day, corny
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: and not in the devil. And I think Dungeons and
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Dragons is cool. I just think it's a little elaborate
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: for me to learn. But I support everybody who does it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I love the show and drop Out TV with Lou
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Wilson where they do it, you know what I mean. So,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: as a part of the decade long mass hysteria of
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: satanic panic, one famous nineteen eighties hoax claims that the
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: game Dungeons and Dragons was an actual portal to Hell
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: and could curse the players.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: It sounds so much cooler than what its.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I kind of want to play Portal Hill. I
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: don't know why.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's my flight back to America. That's
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: port of the hill for me.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: Don't throw the dice. It's gonna there's no good option.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: The only winning move is not to play.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: But my producer just just said, leave them fantastical improv
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: nerds alone, and I agree. I agree they are fantastical
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: and they all do improv. I've done improv with everybody
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: on that truth. Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't because they
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: have imagination, right, the most dangerous thing you can have, apparently.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Truly, that's so education.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you you the devil throw in the river like
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: mm hmmm, scared.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: God.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: And so from the Salem Witch Trials, oh my gosh,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: and we're right to throw them in the river.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: From the Salem Rich.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Trials to today, Americans have always been ready to blame
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: anything and everything on the devil. I like visible that.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's what his homies call him. That's
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: his mom and nickname, Busy.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty cute.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Busy sounds endearing. That's too because he.
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: Couldn't say it when he was little, So that's what
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: they call him exactly.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So we love throwing his name out there, right, especially
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: if it lets us target women or people we just
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: don't like for whatever reason. And I know you can
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: talk with satanic panic in your podcast, your series.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: I know that that's that seems.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: To me the theme for sure. Yeah.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, So if you're an unmarried woman in Massachusetts in
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the sixteen hundreds, whoo sounds like devil stuff to me?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Why you didn't want a man, happy lady who probably
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: would live longer.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: I also, when you make soup, do you ever make
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: soup and just think like this is a whole witch
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: thing right here, Like I've got a cauldron, cauldron, I've
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: got a broom maybe somewhere nearby, Like this is the
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: whole thing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the only way I make by soup is
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: with the broom in between my legs. It may it
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: taste a while, yeah, it does. Got to entertain yourself.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: And I mean, like, look, if you don't want any
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: more kids, because you know, kids are the easiest thing
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: for women to have, you don't lose tee third nipples
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: or you.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: Know, hattie or definitely die.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, definitely nearly die, especially in this time period.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: You definitely like it's the whole reason we have birthdays
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: is because we were excited that the key is stayed alive.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: God.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is also maybe a very millennial thing, but
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: I remember it's well, it's also kind of Dungeons and
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Dragons appropriate. I remember watching God whatever the last Star
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Wars prequel was, was that Revenge of the Sith, because
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: that came out when I was like a junior in
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: high school. And then they have spoilers for Revenge of
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: the Sith. They but you know, well, I guess spoilers
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: for whatever it's like established in the first Yeah, it's
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: not a spoilers, but but uh, Natalie Portman dies And
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: at the time, I was like, what hack screenwriting is
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: this that someone would like the amazing Star Wars technology
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: of a galaxy far far away that we have, like
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: maternal mortality is an issue in this place, And now
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: I'm like, well shit, I thought that maybe we were
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: more done of this than we are. I think I
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: grew up thinking that dying in childbirth was like a
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: very pioneer times thing to do.
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: No, we're dropping like flies right now.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: No, we're still definitely, especially black women that were telling
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Rady's Super High. So shout out to y'all, shout out
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: to the dula's, shout out to the good doctors. But
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: because Yeah, Like, it's just so funny to me that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: some of the things that we enjoyed children or not
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: enjoyed children but are like indoctrinated into our society are
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: surrounded around things that were actually horrific at the time. Like,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad I was born in this time period.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, it could be better. I would rather be
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: born in the future. But I will say, like, cedar
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: trees can kill me, So my ass wasn't making it
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: in the sixteen hundreds. If they have no altbuterol or
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: no steroids shots, your girl was.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: Dead, yeah, which is very humbling, and I'm just very
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: excited enough that I would have tumbled into a rouvine.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we will both have embarrassing deaths. So I'm
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: glad that we're not there because like if they at
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: my funeral and.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: They're like, how she died? Sure you killed her?
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: Like now we get to have maybe the embarrassing dust
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: of today, like getting hit by a drone at a
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: baseball game or something.
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: You know what.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I hate that that sentus has never been said before,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: but makes so much sense. It seems likely.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: I didn't believe that, did you?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Ladies? Hear about the lady that passed away on Haunted
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Mansion at Disneyland in October.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Okay, it's very maybe immature that My first thought is like, Oh,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: she's so lucky. She gets to her ghost gets to
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: live with all the Haunted Mansion ghosts. I'm a child.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: That's what they say.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: There's nine hundred and ninety nine friendly ghosts, but there's
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: always room for one more.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Just though you guys would get a kick from that isline.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: I also love the story that, like one of the
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: imagineers who worked on it, I think they used her
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: face as like the crystal ball and at the end
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: it's her voice saying hurry back. And there was like
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: a Disney imagineer's documentary about how her daughter goes on
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: the ride to hear her now past mom saying hurry back.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: That's really sweet. Yeah, that's the kind of like commercialism
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: that I'm like, exactly.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: I love It's like that be evil, but be sixties
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: Disney evil, where you give the people a really, really,
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: really great attraction to distract them from your evil.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, they used to evil like list, they didn't evil
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: as hard.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know why, right, it was like a side thing.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like we evel on the weekends, and
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: now it's like we evil full time, every day, all day.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: Well it's cheaper. Evil is actually the most profitable business
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: aside from contactics.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's also the best way to extend your life.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I've said this a billion times on this podcast. Y'all know,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: when I get around fifty, I'm gonna turn evil so
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I can live on.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: I'm a sleep better. Empathy really fucks up your sleep.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: It ups your cortisol because you're stressed out because you
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: care about people.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: I can't be doing that shit at fifty.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I'm doing all the good stuff I can right now
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: for the community, for the country, and for my friends
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: and family.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: And in at fifty evil time.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, blow out the candles full dexter gotta do.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, not even dexter, because I'm not trying to get
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: bad people. I'm getting all the out Okay.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Good bad. Don't don't bring a baby around me.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: They getting such a Google calendar reminder. Yes, I see her,
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: get out of her way. Yeah.
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: So to the Puritans, men and women were equal in
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: the devil. The devil preferred who do you think the
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: devil preferred out of men and women.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, I just know he must like women
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: because we're rushed and we like shiny things.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Now the man acting like the devil, They're like, nah, no,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not a y'all the devil in the blue dress
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: about a lady, you know what I mean?
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: Just like you're a hussy, You're you're a temptree.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: It's like remember that time he had made me eat
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: that apple. It's like remember that time you just ate
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: an apple without asking any follow up questions about what
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: I was feeding you. It's like a men problem.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: But you know, we have to blame the women. There
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: has to be somebody at fall and it cannot be then.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So the point is that we in the US are
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: uniquely susceptible to seeing Lucifer around every corner, probably because
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Lucifer's in our government. Like we're trying to act like
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: it's a boogeyman. I'm like, no, I see the guy
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: right now. It's Lindsay Graham, Like, what are we talking about?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Although shout out to his scam where when he gets
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: asked hard questions he's now just falling. I think that's hilarious.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Honestly gonna incorporated in my life.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: It's very classic eighth grade girl, you know, presentation. I
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: didn't prepare for kind of a thing, because now he's
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: got a twenty four hours Yeah, maybe I.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Was inspired by him because I did fake fate in
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: the Berlin airport. Maybe I got it from Lindsay Gram
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: like you know, so I just know, Yeah, I did,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I did. I did.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: I didn't wave when I got up either. That was strange, but.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Like, we don't care if you're all right. Everybody's probably like, yes,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: don't worry, everybody. I'm gonna live a long, fulfilling line
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: because and he looks like a turtle and he got
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the life span of a turtle to match.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: Like it's over.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: So your new podcast series, The Devil, you know, it
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: dives deep into all these satanic panic things of the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: eighties and how the fear of the devil was weaponized
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and worshippers really popped off in America, like they really
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: loved this. Suddenly there were like self appointed experts on Satanism,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: on cults, on satanic cults, even on ritual abuse popping
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: up on your.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: TV and on the news.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Obviously, the television is like pumping out this fear. They
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: could tell you how to find evidence of Satanism in
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: daily life or at a crime scene, and they turned
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: around and trained more experts. So part of the scam
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: that's marking me right now is that once the spear
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: is being drummed up, right, then you have people coming
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: in as experts. And I feel like if you're in
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: any job where you had to have COVID advisors, if
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you're not a COVID advisor during the height of COVID
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: with somebody who was on your job to make sure
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: that everybody was following the safety procedures.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: This was never a job before COVID, right, So people
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: just took.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Like a little online course and it just came in
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and started doing bullshie like and this it feels like
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: with satanic panic, like oh, I'm an expert. Now, how
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: are you an expert? This wasn't a thing you just
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: popped up and now you're an expert.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: You know. What I would compare it to also is
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: the kind of like wellness scams of today, right where
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: like if someone is like, I'm a registered dietitian, You're like, oh,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: that's like a real job with school and a government
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: and a governing body. And if someone you know, especially
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: on social media, is like I'm a nutritionist, it's like,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: well that could mean anything. That's kind of, you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: more of a term that just means I maybe I
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: really have an education, and maybe I like to go
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: to Costco and fear monger about the rotisserie chicken, which
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: is a very cruel thing to.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Do, right. Maybe I just know off the top of
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: my head and apple is seventy calories, like.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: Right, Or maybe I'm use vibing and telling people think
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: to avoid perfectly reasonable things.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And it's always going to call us up an expert
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: or specialist or like just certain things that I'm like, who.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: Gave you that title? Yes?
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: Right? Because I mean I've you know, I've been coming
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: on shows to promote the Devil, you know, and I've
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: been introduced very kindly by people sometimes as a Satanic
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: panic expert. I'm like, you know what, I'm not an expert.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: I'm just like an enthusiast. Like I've thought about it
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: a lot, and i find it very interesting and I've
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: like put more time into it than anyone ever asked
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: me to. But I think expertise is like anyone who
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: self appoints themselves an expert maybe is compensating for something.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: And I mean you didn't self appoint yourself.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: And I mean, honestly, Sarah, the way that you research,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the only way that you could be more of an expert,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: in my eyes, is if you just met the devil Himsefie.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: I had to sit down.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: I mean, the fact I'm not gonna shown up yet,
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: like if, like I hope it's maybe somehow some way
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: persuasive to someone who like is holding on to fear
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: of the Devil that I could spend like about the
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: last fifteen years at this point speaking disrespectfully of the
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: Devil and he just doesn't care, you know, like he's
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: not shown him. I think he's fat to him and
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: he's not. Yeah, I haven't gotten any one star reviews
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: from the Devil. I think that like, if he's out there,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: he's really minding his business and trying to, you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: make up for any misdeeds in the past.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: The devil is just a scapegoat. Like the devil maybe
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: do it, you know exactly. They really popularized the scapegoat
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, no, the devil made him
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: do it. He's cool. The devil made him do that,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: and now he did.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: Again, but the devil was the one. It's like, maybe
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: people just want to do bad things sometimes, and yeah,
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: I can deal with what it is about them that
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: happens like that.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You should be like the little kid in the video
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: that I love and I still quote who when he
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: was arrested for taking his grandma's car and going on
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: a joy ride and he was like, we was smoking
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: cigarettes and he was They were like, why did you
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: do this? And he was like, I just want to
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: do hood shit with my friends and I was like,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: he didn't say the devil made me do it.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: He was like, I wanted to do this with my
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: gay kids.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: Some things could seem really really really fun, Like how
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: when I was like six, I somehow reached my arm
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: up into a pad dispenser and got one out because
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: I guess thought there was candy in there and there
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: was not. It was so boring.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: You're like, wish y'all got locked up in here, and
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: it was I had to know. Yeah. So social workers
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: and therapists were told to look for the devil in
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: their clients memories, and teachers, parents and children were told
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: that the secret satanic panic messages were hidden in heavy
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: metal songs, comic books, and games, so all the things
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: that kids liked in the eighties.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: All the good stuff, yeah and so, and not even
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: necessarily just the kind of thing that you would maybe
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: from the outside imagine getting identified this way. Like Chelsea
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Weber Smith over on American Hysteria did some really great
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: Satanic panic coverage over the years, and I think fairly
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: early on talked about also the kind of panic around toys.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: And I mean there was at least one self proclaimed
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: expert who was saying that Rainbow Bright was part of
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: the Satanic agenda because she was like, I don't know,
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: promoting paganism or something. I'm not sure how it was
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: really choosing all the good stuff, I don't know because
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: she's wearing too many colors, she's.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: Gay, yeah, right, Like what were they trying to do? Also,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: this is a direct opposition to capitalism, so I'm shocked
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: that they were choosing brands that were so popular.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: It's like, that's a good point.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I want to know.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: I'm listening to Satanic peg because I need to know,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: like who's behind this and what was the goal? Because
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: whenever I see some shenanigainst some nas is like this
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: is always somebody behind it. The tea party, the were
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: not people waiting on JFK to go back. You know,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: there's always someone who's pulling the strings and there's a
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: specific reason that they're doing it, and it's never something
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: that's not nefarious.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: It's never something that doesn't have to do with money.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: I think in this case it was lucrative for a
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: lot of people because it like, as you were saying,
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: you know, if you were a cop who you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: decide goes to a training and this would be like
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: a weekend training, you know at the most, and yeah,
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: based on that is like, well, I'm an expert. And
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: by the way, like this is still a problem in
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: terms of how loosely structured the system for becoming an
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: expert witnesses. There's a great article by Pam call Off
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: where she became a blood spatter expert witness just like
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: as a journalist, but just by taking I think just
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: a several days long course and you know, doing like
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: a very light amount of training. You know, it's so there,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: depending on the state, depending on the area, depending on
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: the field. There are areas of forensic science where you
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: can tacnic according to whatever governing body exists, become an
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: expert witness without really having to learn that much at all,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: and then you can guess, you know, get up at
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: a trial and say, yes, the prosecution's theory is correct,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: or yes, the defenses theory is correct because I'm an
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: expert and I say so. And that's one of the
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: holes I think that still exists in our our legal system.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: But it was a good way to make money.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because blood spatter patterns, like when they're doing it,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: like it's not like they can kill a living human
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: being and see how it like different ways, see how
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the blood spatters. So it's all guests, you know, they
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: really shouldn't be Yeah, no, but it's all guessing with
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: like fake people.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: So it's like right, and like cops kill a lot
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: of people, but never under experimental or you know, kind
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: of lab circumstances, so they're not learning anything from it really.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: In a vacuum.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah, So according to us, some of these fake experts,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: like we were just talking about daycare workers were infiltrating
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: preschools as part of organized satanic cults so they could
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: gain access to children for depraved rituals now. Daycare has
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: always been expensive and hard. Why I was trying to
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: get rid of Miss Cathy. She's doing a miss Shiki,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, And.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: I think it's I think there was a lot of
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: anxiety toward daycare providers at the time, because there's this idea, well,
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: women are escaping the home and going back to work,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: and daycare is one of the things that's enabling them
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: to do it. And so I think there was an
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: undercarent of like, this can't be right. It's facilitating women,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: you know, being worldly. Yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the women in the daycare and the women dropping
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: the kids off in the daycare are getting independent. And
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I've kind of pondered about this recently, especially with the
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: regression that's happening in America and how they're trying to
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: get women barefoot impregnant again by taking away reproductive rights
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and doing everything they can to like you know, affirmative action,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: which mostly benefited white women, like all these things to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: get us back.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: In the home.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And I was like, I guess it is cheaper if
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: the woman is just at home, like you don't have
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: to pay for daycare. They'll cook, they'll clean, they'll be
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a maid and a sex lady for you and all
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: of these things. And I think they're mad that they
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: lost that and that they can't be pieces of shit
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: because we'll just fucking leave. And they're like, no, no, no, no,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: your whole financial like life needs to be dependent on
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: me so that I can be a fuck ass bitch
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: and you can't leave because you can't have no credit card.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Right, They're like, remember we didn't let women have credit cards.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: We need to go back to that, right, And it's like,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: remember when the divorce rate was lower because women couldn't
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: couldn't escape. And also it's like, why why barefoot and pregnant?
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Who took her shoes away?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: She can't be running walk out door. I take all
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: her shoes when I leave the work. She can't be
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: running nowhere. She gets shoes when I'm home. God, But
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so that definitely feels like what you're saying is that
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: type of and this panet caused real harm. Obviously innocent
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: people were accused of abuse based on repressed memories in
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: quotes which would later be debunked by a scam largely
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: discredited by memory researchers due to the significant risk of
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: creating false memories, especially within the therapeutic context. So like
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: if a therapist suggests a story to a child, it's
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: easy to see how that could be a problem. There's
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: no such thing as a repressed memory. It's just a
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: story that's been suggested to you enough times that you
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: start to believe that it's true.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: This is a really interesting part of the scam to me,
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: because I think that so much of it was based on,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: you know, just selling something that we would all really
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: like to have, especially based on how things have been going.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: And so the idea of recovered memory therapy, which started
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: to be used on adult women, almost entirely women in
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: the eighties.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, of course that's the medical stuff they
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: want to give to us. It's like, let's tell you
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: last not, let's work on your body.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Experimental drugs at you and just see what happens. You know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: why the heck not? And in this case, the idea
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: is that well, when something traumatic happens to you, your body,
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: your brain specifically puts it away in a special kind
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: of lock box, and then when you're old enough and ready,
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: probably in your thirties, when you can afford therapy, which
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: is an amazing idea and also a scary idea, right,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: because I think that the way that we forget actually
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: protects us from quite a lot. But it's also you know,
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: in this context, of course we're in the legal system.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Nobody really trusts women's memories when it comes especially to
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: sexual assault or to child abuse. You have this promise
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: offered by the therapeutic world of actually we now know
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: that your memories can be retrieved with perfect documentary recall,
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: like you can know everything that happened to you. And
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: one of the things that I and that you know,
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: and that was untrue, but it was something that experts
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: were telling people and telling their patients. And so if
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: I'm told something by someone in a position of authority,
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: like my first impulse is to believe them, you know,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: especially if they're my provider. I kind of clipboard theory, Yeah.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Like somebody has a clipboard, I'm like, I got to
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: listen to them, because where they get that little piece
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: of wood with the clippy on it, they must say
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: in charge.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: But what if you carried your own clipboard in there,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: and you're also wearing a high viz vest, you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: and then nobody would know what to do with like
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: those clashing signifiers but then you know, something I find
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: really heartbreaking about the whole thing is that there was
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: a period where you would, as a woman, very likely
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: you know, depending on the therapist that you had gotten
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: just kind of through the luck of the draw. There
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: was a good chance that you might go in and say,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: you know, I want to work on my depression. I
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: want to work on this, or that, I want to
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: you know, I do remember being abused in my past
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: and I want to work on that trauma. And your
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: therapists would be like, well, actually, the most relevant thing
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: to your life is the thing that you don't remember.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: And I know that you have stuff you don't remember,
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: and we're going to get it. And if you're suggested,
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: like I am, you would stay.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I feel like these satanic panic expert therapists are probably
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: just giving these women and children the plot to Rosemary's Baby.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Eh be like, yeah, yeah, you don't remember that, but
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: it happens to you, like right.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Well, and then there's the thing where you have so
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: many people who are seeming to recall the same thing
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: that one of the defenses is, well, why would they
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: all be remembering the same thing if it didn't happen.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: But you could also say, why are these memories so
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: consistent and so in line with the literature and the
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: things that you were trying to get them to say,
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: like the unanimity of it. Like if you ask a
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: bunch of different kinds of patients from different parts of
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: the country about non satanic sexual abuse, they'll have different
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: stories about different circumstances. And that to me supports the
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: idea that you know, if you have someone who tells
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: you a story that you didn't basically ask them to
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: tell you, then that's the story that I want to hear.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Bobby run.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Sarah really does a great job in her podcast of
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: breaking all of this down, in all of these details
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: and with her research, and I am unseerious, so I
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: am gonna get to some sillier victims of the Satanic panic.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: And that's the game Dungeons and Dragons.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: So I'm sure you've heard of it by now, but
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: if you haven't, D and D is a fantasy role
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: playing game that was invented in the seventies. To play it,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you in four to five of your nerdier friends, roll
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: a twenty sided die and create a tactical fantasy realm
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: playing characters that you've designed, so it's like Lord of
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: the Rings, but everybody is making it up as they
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: go along, and the dungeon master or game master keeps
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: track of where everyone is and what's happening. Games can
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: basically last forever if you want them to, and some
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: people do want that.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: They're not trying to go home.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: And D and D has been taking over podcasting and
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Madison Square Garden for some reason. Most important, it was
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: the basis for the twenty twenty three Crispine movie, where
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: a very small Bradley Cooper had a romantic relationship with
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: a very large Michelle Rodriguez. But forty years ago, America's
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: parents decided to freak out over kids pretending to be
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: elves and drawing things on graph paper because that was scary.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: The fear of graph paper is so sad. You gotta
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: guess face it.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't think the devil been too a craft's
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: aplast store, although he might be a hobby lobby.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I don't lie so well, yeah, he's got to got
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: those artifacts of himself.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy nine, a college student and D and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: D player named James Dallas Egbert the Third.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: That's a lot of names.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: I feel like you, I know not many names. It's
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: a struggle.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like why did your parents keep naming you? Like?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like the nurse was like and oh and
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: more more names, and you got a college. We running
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: out of a room on the line. We are running
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: out of a room on the line, though, so so
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: he vanished from Michigan State University. Egbert was considered a
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: child prodigy, talented with technology at a young age, and
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: the sixteen year old Egbert enrolled in Michigan State University
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: as a computer science major. He was a fan of
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: science fiction and fantasy, and was also possibly struggling to
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: come to terms with his sexuality, which is relatable. So
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: when Egbert disappeared, his parents hired a private investigator, and
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: the PI offered some interesting theories to the media, who
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: ran with it. Sensational stories in the news described him
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: as a boy genius who supposedly disappeared and died in
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the steam tunnels under his university while role playing a
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: real life version of Dungeons and Dragons. Now, what kind
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: of PI do you have? That's just making up shit.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I thought you was supposed to come with pictures. You're
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: supposed to have a long lists, take out and eat
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: bad food in the car.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: What do you mean he was having some fun? I remember,
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: I think I listened to the audio book of this
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: private investigator's memoir at the start of the pandemic, and
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: there's this like dramatic section where he's going into the
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: steam tunnels. It's all very exciting, and it's like, I
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: guess you want a detective ideally who disregards the truth
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: and makes up like a fun thing for himself to
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: do for his book.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: How do you gonna be a detective?
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: You just do it?
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: Bits bro.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: They asked you to like actually locate this person, and
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: you were like acting like a psychic, Like, well, I.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: Think, yeah, it is very behavior, right, be serious.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Sorry, we paid you to find our son. You're like, well,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I think hold on, y'all, sit down, sit down for
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: this what.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: I gotta go have a little adventure. I gotta go
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: poke around and danger myself.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but two as good at the PI did eventually
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: find Egbert alive and in New Orleans, having run away
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: from academic and parental pressures. But at that point the
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: d and d Angle had already gone from myth to fact,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: and it was too late at least in this situation,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: he ran away and was found and it's not like
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: he staged his own kidnapping. Because I will never get
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: over that black lady that we actually looked for and
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: she staged that over.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: Was that the woman who said that she saw a
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: toddler on the side of the Yeah, yeah, that story.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: And I'm beefing with her.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I have a whole stand up joke about it because
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I was upset, like, girl, you gotta move to Mexico
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: and pretend you miss it for everyone family. You're embarrassing us,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: like we were looking for you un first place. I
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: love that she counted on the racism though. She was like,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: they don't ever look for black girls. I could definitely
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: do this stunt, and.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: You gotta have an excuse to not look now. Yeah,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: I guess love that she was like, there's there's a
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: toddler on the side of the highway, and it's like, yeah,
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: it's very reasonable that she got created. She did, and
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: she made real creative too creative.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, I did.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: She did leave her wig there, which I thought was
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: a nice touch. She did leave her phone, but I'm like,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: you should have like at least pricked your finger and
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: put some blood somewhere, so we could really get into
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: a little but I don't want to talk about how
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it could have improved it for her. But but yeah,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: at least he just ran away.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: You know, she did a real shoddy job and nobody
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: figured it out for like years.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: You know that's true.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: Still a double standard anyway.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: It so Egward's personal story was quite sad, but the
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: fake story about his D and D disappearance boosted the
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: popularity of the game, which had been a cult phenomenon
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: up until that point, and now it started to get
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: mainstream attention. I love that everyone's like, oh, the Devil's
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: in this game. They're like, the devil, Wait, where can.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: We bet it?
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, would we still be selling WISI boards if
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: horror movies hadn't been relying on them for like fifty years.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: I don't know. It's pretty boring. If you're not scared,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: you're right.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Because everybody in the group just pulling the board to
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: spell things they want to spell.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: We know what's going on. But it does give you
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: that a cult vibe because of the movies.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: It's the same way that we were all shot that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: the love got the they said it got robbed because
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: we were like, no, you gotta go through lasers and
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: you gotta be.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Ocean's eleven and George Cloudy.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And then it turns out they got seventy five percent
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: like cameras and shoddy security and they're underpaid and overworked
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: and actually to just walk up in that bitch with
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a chainsawng get what you want, like the Propagan confidence.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: It does make sense to me that casino would have
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: better security than one of the greatest museums in the
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: world because yes, fits yeah, because.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: They're just hoping that everybody's gonna come there and act right.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: The casino is for shady people, like there's some people
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: just go to have fun. People who frequent casinos, they're
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: always in some mess.
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: So we should have mobsters in charge of the loover obviously. Yeah,
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: people that.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Lose just want to make tiktoks and take photos of
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: at one tiny picture.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: So Tom Hanks is gonna get involved, yus.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: I love the Tom Hanks cameo.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: So while Rosemary's Baby in nineteen sixty eight and The
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: Exorcist in nineteen seventy three brought Satan into the Limelok
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: and gave him his moment on the big screen. An
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: equally important film captured the specific fear of dungeons and
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: dragons in nineteen eighty two. Sariah Smile. You know this
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: film is Yes, it's.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: Called Mazes and Monsters Fun.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: So it's inspired by Egber's disappearance and it's written about
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: three days. Mazes and Monsters involves a group of college
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: students who take their role playing game to the nearby
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: caverns when player is suffering from mental illness and begins
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: to believe that he's his character. The book was adapted
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: into a CBS Movie of the Week starring Tom Hanks
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: in his first dramatic leading role. Okay, well, Satanic Panic.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm kind of happy with you now because you
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: gave us Tom Hanks and then hilariously gave us Chet
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Hanks wagwan my Jamaican King.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm back on the side of Satanic panic, right.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: It's hard. It's hard to know.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: Yan.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: We see it, Tom, and it's nice to see Tom
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: Hanks just like acting his head off and this thing,
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: you know, he really is selling it.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, let's look at this. Let's look at a clip
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: of the film right here. We'll put this on the Instagram.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Let's see Tom acting his head off, going to join
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: the Great Hall. You can't.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: It's a trap.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I have spells.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I'm going to fly.
• 42:22
  Speaker 6: You don't have enough points. I am the maze controller.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Tom was eating whoever that other actor.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: I love that Robbie Benson looking kid.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: You can't you get that. I don't know what happened
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: to that gat, but.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: I appreciate that approach, you know, because he can't be
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: like it's it's not real. It's an illusion. You have
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: to be like you don't have enough points in the game,
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: you silly goose.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: No I do.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: I just feel like the delivery was like, I mean,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: we got to YaST you like Tom was eating him up.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: But yes, exactly the acting is. You know, this is
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: also one of those TV movies at the time where
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: they're like, we're definitely not Canadian a and they that's
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: just fun.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's what it's giving. And I love that scam.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: And right, we're cooking with gas now because we got
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: a whole movie about how Dungeons and Dragons is definitely
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: like the Devil's k hole. And in terms of fear mongering,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: a woman pulls up and her name is Patricia Pulling
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: and she is gonna light a match, So contant warning
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: here there is a mention of suicide and we will
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: put that in the footnotes as well. Patricia's teenage son Irving,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: committed suicide in nineteen eighty two. That's really hard to
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: go through and it's a type of grief that almost
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: no one else can understand. And shout out to Regina
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: King for being such an icon going through that with
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: her son. I don't know why that made me think
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: of that, but I just love Regina King. But in
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Patricia's case, she really aimed her heartbreak at one scapegoat
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: source that never wavered for the rest of her life.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: This is where she channeled all of her energy. And
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: you can probably guess what it is. Dungeons and Dragons.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it is easier than the gun lobby,
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: I guess to take on.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the gun lobby is also strong.
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: It's one of the I think one of the weaknesses
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: in American life is that we want to let our
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: policy be written by people who are actively grieving, and
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: that's not really good for anybody.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but they're the only people at the time that
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: have leveraged because that's the visibility.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: And that's why I hate the influencer culture of our society.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: It's like, but so here we have her saying that
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: her son is a big fan of D and D
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: and instead of considering irving struggle to fit in at school,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: his or his easy access to her husband's handgun, like
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: you said at home, Pat decided to blame the game
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: We went into the.
• 44:47
  Speaker 6: Kitchen and there on the table or what we thought
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: were just regular composition books with schoolwork in it, and
• 44:55
  Speaker 6: much of the Dungeons and Dragons material along with this
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: curse he had receive in the game.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: That day that he died. So she thought because somebody
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: told him to draw four, that's why he left us. Like,
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: make it make sense. Yeah, But at the same time,
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: I understand she's grieving.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I understand this is a devastating loss for a mother, especially,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: I mean parents especially. So I empathized with her, but
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: I want to know who got in her ear and
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: was like, no, no, that was definitely because of the
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons. So she found a wrongful death lawsuit,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: which I'm sure you know, against her son's high school
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: principle holding him responsible for what she claimed was a
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: D and D curse placed upon her son's character shortly
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: before his death. She also sued the D and D
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: game publishers now Baby Swing D and D game publishers.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: That makes sense to me because they probably got some coin.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: The high school principle, what did you.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Think you were going to get out?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I did not know that.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: She sued the principle that's wild.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so after all her lawsuits were dismissed, but
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Josha founded the addicacy group Bothered About Dungeons and Dragon
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: aka Bad b A D D.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: I was about to say, why would you call it
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: bothered about, right, but she just wanted bad don't be
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: the way.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: I wonder if, like Mother's against Drunk Driving was calling
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: her and was like, hey, it seems like you're taking
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: our acronym.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Kind of Yeah, she's no, I'm bad, y'all mad it's different,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: it's different. So her advocacy materials said that the game
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: used demonology that's a new word, witchcraft, voodoo, and other
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: intense things like murder, sexual salt, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, in sanity, sex, perversion, homosexuality, prostitution,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, saydism, desocration, demon some
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: of it, necromancy, divination, and other teachings.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: She threw in every bad word you could.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if only the kids were necromancing.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, necromancing. Uh wait what else? Stabbing, punch
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: of babies? What else could I say this?
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: But kick it?
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: Duck cutting out?
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not definitely, not cutting up. They solda rings, that's the.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: Part of the getting They're far too much sodium.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, they're like Willie ain't getting free.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: He getting killed by soda rings from dungeons track what
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: she threw in every buzzword. Conservative Christian media outlets repeated
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: this information without fact checking it, because why would they
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: do that. It's no fact checked the Bibles, Like why
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: would they like there's some weird stuff in there. Yeah,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: but they're like no, no, no, it's all good. So
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Patricia even obtained a private investigator's license for herself. She
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: became a consultant to law enforcement and was an expert
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: witness in several gaming related lawsuits, all of which also
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: lost in court.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Because what is y'all talking about? And why what lawyer
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: is letting you.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: She must have been raising funds because I'm like, aren't
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: you going broke paying for all these fake sham trials.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: So I feel like if you become an expert in
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: Dungeons and Dragons, he would have to play at least
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: once and then realize that it's not you know, And look,
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: I love Dungeons and Dragons. I support the right of
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: anyone who wants to play it, but also it is
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: so boring, like so much time passes before anything happens,
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: and I feel like the point of it really is
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: to be with your friends and to have a thing
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: that you do and to have a campaign that goes
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: on for maybe years or decades. But it feels like
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: like if you were to play it, you would be like, oh,
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: this is like not the portal to Hell that I
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: was promised. This is We're still definitely just sitting around
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: someone's dining room table right now, right.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: And if it is the portal to Hell, is the
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: scenic route? Like wow, dragon as wow, I thought portals quit.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we've been playing for eight years.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: We have yet, but we have hopes.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, even though she was wrong, you
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: have to admire her persistence. And I feel like that's
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: just like grief, like love is persevering, and so she
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: was trying to do this for her, said, and obviously
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: got hyped up by a bunch of other lunatics. But
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: in her case, I really think like she was really
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: trying to do something for her. So at least that's
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: what I hope. I don't know the lady well, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I think that a.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: Lot of yeah, people who are on their own grief journey,
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: like we can't. We can't expect them to tell us
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: all what to fear. You know, they're figuring it out
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: for themselves, and so to use someone that way, it
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: just feels very opportunistic.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: Extremely extremely, So she kept going, baby.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: She co authored the book The Devil's Web, Who is
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: Stalking Your Children for Satan? Honestly, not gonna lie.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Great title.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: If I saw it in the airport, I'm thinking that
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: shit up. Okay, I got a six hour flight. Oh
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: I could knock that book out. She was known nationally
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: as an expert on the occult. Again with the expert title,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: where did she get it?
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: And we don't know?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: And so she testified in a capital murder like excuse me,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: multiple capital murderable trump, I can't.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: Even get out because it's ridiculous.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Multiple capital murder trials and appeared on TV, including well,
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: this is not shocking to me, the Oprah Winfrey Show.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: We've seen how many grifters were platformed and legitimized on
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Oprah Winfrey's show. Not does who just told us that
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: all of America is gonna lose three hundred and ninety
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: three pounds because of his health initiative. So I don't
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: know my bones are gonna be because I don't got
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: that many. But okay, she platformed Yona van Zandt, which
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: is my favorite one. A therapist. I'm putting heavy air quotes,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: who like makes people sing their rapp lyrics to pictures
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: of Harriet Tubman, honestly cinema doctor Phield who just yells
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: at people to try to help them, but he's not
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: trying to help them at all, Like I won't forget
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: ever in my life. The episode where he has somebody
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: on who was addicted to crack, okay, and he was like,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: just stop doing crack, And I'm like, I don't know
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: if that's gonna healed.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but you are very unserious. So of course
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Oprah Wainfree had this lady out because this is what
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Oprah Woofrey show did.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she was also five shows a week. You gotta
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: pack him with you.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: At that point, Oprah was like, look, I'm trying to
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: be discerning, but we got to get these writings. Yeah.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: Well, I also I feel like Oprah kind of like,
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: I don't know what, like in the late nineties early
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: two thousands, she kind of underwent this makeover of like
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: being more about kind of vague spirituality and positivity and
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: favorite things. And that was the Oprah I grew up with.
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: And so there's this interesting thing where you see what
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: she was. It's like seeing your mom in the eighties
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: where you're like, oh, you were having a lot of
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: a large statanists on before you got into all the
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: Steinbeck and everything.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: And I mean, that's why white women love Oprah so much.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm not gonna lie, it's not just white women.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: My mom loves Oprah. My mom has been was at
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: the Oprah's show several times. There used to be an
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Oprah room in our house, which included a cardboard cutout
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: that she got from a local bookstore because they were
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: about to get rid of it and of Oprah.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: And she had a poster of Oprah framed it just
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: said read and it was Oprah. Would a book open?
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Just follow her eyeballs, follow you around the room literally radio.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Literally we called it the Oprah Room. It was a
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: guest room and there's just Oprah stuff in there. So,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I have mixed feelings about Oprah, but
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: she still is iconic and always woke. I am so
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: the mom of Edward was also on Heraldo sixty Minutes
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: and Larry King Live to talk about teens involved in
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Satanic worship.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: Larry King has been on TV.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: He like, as soon as they made TV, he was like,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: looking on that bitch y'all y'all figured it out, plugging it.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna get on there.
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: He walked over from the radio side or something.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: Literally like is he alive?
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: I think he died a few years ago, but it
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: was like he seemed to be eighty for my entire life.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like Morgan Freeman's to be like I've never
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: seen but I'm saying that no, And I'm like, is
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: he dead?
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: It doesn't feel with us.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'll always be with the shoutout Larry King.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: So we're back to Egber's mom. She also spoke on
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: more than two hundred radio shows and was the subject
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: of local and national news articles. In one print interview
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: with the Richmond Newsleader, Patricia said in her expert opinion
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: that about eight percent of the population of Richmond were
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: probably Satanists. I don't know where she pulled eight from,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: probably out of her ass. But also at this point
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I realized that she's probably getting d Lulu, because think
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: about it. You're on Oprah, you're on Barraldough, you're on
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Larry King, you have all these national articles. Now all
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: this stuff is starting to come to you like it's
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: getting too your head, and you're like, I want to
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: keep this fame and popularity up.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: So I really got to just start saying any.
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: Three percent of richmend is, like to be clear, that's
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: like thousands and thousands of people who are supposed to
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: be closeted Satanists.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: I do feel like there would be this this phenomenon
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: where like, if it becomes your job to say kind
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: of outrageous things, then you would be getting all this
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: positive reinforcement for doing that and it would maybe escalade.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like she should have gone a little hired
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: the fake number though, I'm thinking, like what per you know,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: it's not quite twenty five, it's.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Not a fourth, but right, that's hogal than if it
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: were twenty five.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Because eight, I'm like, I'm not stoking no fears with
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: that or maybe not even using that way of math,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: maybe like one in every six.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Also, nobody cares about Richmond. She needed to
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: pick a you know, she said Dallas. People would a yeah,
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: people would have freaked out.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Dallas very Yeah, she had to go very religious, but
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: also large city.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Florida, Florida. Everybody in Florida will believe anything. So
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Florida would.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Have been great if somebody said today not everybody else.
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: This is somebody that fifty percent of people in Portland, Oregon,
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: where I live or Satanists. That I mean, people would
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: believe them, but that I think they would believe them
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: on the basis of like, well they look at Tarot
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: and they yeah, I don't know, they have Christ. The
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: most strip clubs capita strip clubs per capita, so ergo
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: is Satan. And it's like, well that's a very loosely
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: defined Satanism, that what are we talking really?
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's women and satan loves in Houston and
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: they're at the Booty Club.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: There are a lot of hot girls in Portland. Yeah,
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: clearly satanic devilish. Yes, I love Portland.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: But yeah.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: So by nineteen ninety one, people start to calm down
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: kind of. The American Association of Suicideology, the US Centrist
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: for Disease Control, and Health and Welfare Canada all concluded
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: that there was no causal link between fantasy gaming and
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: suicide and that we all needed to cool off.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: So she rode this wave.
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: But what if we stop funding these agencies and then
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: they can stop telling us that we're freaking out for
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: no reason, and then we can keep freaking out for
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: no reason. That's apparently what we're doing now.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: You know, everybody's doing their own research these days, which
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: is fine because I'm like, yeah, you.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: Want to do research papers when you were required to
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: do them as school. You tell me, really doing your
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: own research?
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: I love nothing more than doing research. But it doesn't
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: count if you refuse to listen to half of the
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: available information because you're afraid you'll learn something, Right.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I know MLA format. I hate to see
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: you coming because you.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Y'all y'ah oh, I kind of miss MLA format. I mean,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: these days, I don't even like write with the pencils
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: that much anymore.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: I feel so old. I'm like, I'm not.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Writing size of piscols and then passing it to somebody
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: so they could give you a peer review and then
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: rewrite in it. No.
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: You know what's great, though, is it like this boring
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: thing that we had to do in middle school that
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: never seemed like it was a real life skill of
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: the time, at least to me, where they're like, all right,
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: write a five paragraph essay in the next hour. You'd
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: be like, ugh, okay, I'll do it. And now the
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: ability to do that is like having been to I
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: don't know, Shalon Monk Academy or something in terms of
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: how far away it seems.
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Rice like we were all at like Harry Potter or something.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: Now we got all types of skills around.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: She's a teachers who were me to us, and we
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: learned how to magically produce a whole page of writing.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: It's a special skill that I now cove it. I mean,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: I've never used a pro chacter since but you know,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: at one point in my life of try and.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Go, hated to see me coming. So that brings us
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: to the end of this episode.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that I had you for this
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: because there's so much satanic panic scamming, and I know
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: that that's something that I will call you an expert
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: because I don't think you're a scammer at all. I
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: know you maybe are going to be cautious with that word,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: but I know the way that you think, and I
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: know the way that you research, So I'm going to
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: say expert.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: I will let you call me an expert. Yeah, call
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: me a guest expert and scam Goddess Land and nowhere else. Yeah,
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: And I'm so happy to get to talk to you
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: about it today because I feel like this is one
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: one chapter of it that is so compelling. And if
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: there yeah, if people want to read more, do that
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: the Devil.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: You know your podcast, that's where you can get eight
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: episodes of a deep dive of all of this wild
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: stuff that was legitimately happening in the eighties.
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: So yeah, and it really and I guess keeps getting weirder.
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: And we have also eight regular episodes and eight bonus
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: episodes where we have kind of extended conversations with some
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: I will call them experts and fabulous experts who we
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: got to talk to, including an expert on the galer
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: theorizing world, which you know, I don't think is going anywhere.
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: And yeah, it's been it's been such a joy to
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: put together and to get to just share the weirdness.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: And also I think maybe what I hope people take
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: from it is that people get scammed all the time
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: throughout history, and if we're around, you know, and not
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: falling for the fear, then it's our job to take
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: care of each other because the fear does some scary things.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: That's beautiful, especially in the times that we're in. Like,
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: that's a really beautiful sentiment. And I love to be noses,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: so I can learn a bunch of stuff, but I
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: can also carry that thread throughout my life because we're
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: still living in those times. History just does repeat itself.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: So I always ask the end of the show, Sarah,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: where would you like to be found? Any socials? Anything
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: you want to plug?
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you? Yeah you can see you and listen to
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: my new show The Devil. You know, it's out from
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: CBC Podcasts, and you can also listen to my show
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: You're Wrong About and you can find that show on
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: Instagram at I Think You're Wrong About pod. And also
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: just find me in the cool breeze of a winter's day,
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: find me in a face in the clouds. I'm always
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: with you. Oh and if you're afraid of the devil,
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: then I will tell him to keep away from you.
• 59:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: And also I've done a couple episodes of the show
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: in the past that I had such a good time doing,
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: and I want people to find me there too.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, so thank you so much for coming. I
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: really appreciate it. It's always nice to talk to you.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: It's been too long.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: It's great to talk to you too. I know it's
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: been two hundred years. Yeah, and it feels like two
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: hundred years away. The time is move right now.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: But as always, y'all, if you want to see the
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: photos and the videos that we talked about and listen
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: to on the podcast today, you can go to Scam
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Goddess Pod on Instagram, follow the page, like the page,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: send make your baby at Instagram account and they also
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: follow with that and make your dog an Instagram account.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: And also follow with that and streaming for your baby
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: at nap time. Okay, I'm greedy, and you can follow
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: me at d IV A L A c I for
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: all of my shenanigans. I'm wrapping up the second season
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: of Going Dutch, so it'll be on Fox and Hulu
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: very soon. You can watch my show Scam Goddess on Hulu.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you can get my book Scam Goddess wherever
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: books are sold, including audio books. That's all I have
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: is to plug, but I want to say I love
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: you guys, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: Sarah.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: This is a fantastic episode. As per usual, you never
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: disappoint Thank you so slacky Gosh. I want you to
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: get out there. I want y'all to stay. I want
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: y'all to stay panicing, not panic attacks, but like right now,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: you need to be in heightened alert, so like just
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: panic a little sometimes.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I want you to stay. Cutting up soda rings.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, we can't let Willie go out like that and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Sheldon the Turtle to see turtle, Okay, think about him,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: all right, But buddy, damn Goddess, Scam got his stars
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: and it's hosted by me. Lacy mostly aka Scam Goddess.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: Our producer is.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: Justcasis Nettos and our audio engineer is Rich Garcia. Research
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: for the show is conducted by Kate Doyle Stay Scheming