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Alex Staniforth: What Two Everest Disasters Reveal About Mental Health · The BEYOND Podcast

• 0:00
  Unknown: You nearly died in an avalanche on Everest. Talk us through that day.
• 0:03
  Unknown: First time in my life, at 19 years old, I'm thinking it's game over. I'm Alex Staniforth. I'm
• 0:08
  a record-breaking ultra-endurance athlete and adventurer. I've survived the two biggest disasters
• 0:14
  in Mount Everest history in two consecutive years. I'm the founder of an award-winning mental
• 0:19
  health charity called Mind Over Mountains.
• 0:21
  On the mountain, on Everest, failure really could be death. So if you want to avoid death, what do
• 0:28
  Unknown: you need to do?
• 0:30
  Unknown: Everest is 90% mental, only 10% physical. In terms of managing the risk, our
• 0:34
  leader always spoke about raising the safety net– by having the best possible team and Sherpas and
• 0:37
  oxygen. If you try to do Everest cheaply, you increase the risk, because you haven't got that in
• 0:41
  place.
• 0:44
  Unknown: For those that are stuck, they have that Mount Everest version of it, and they want to do that
• 0:47
  dream, but they're stuck– what do you say to them?
• 0:50
  Unknown: Partially it's wanting something. enough. If you want something, you'll find a way. If you don't,
• 0:53
  you'll find an excuse. The difference between success and failure, in my opinion, is often about
• 0:57
  commitment.
• 0:59
  Unknown: Have you ever experienced altitude sickness?
• 1:02
  Unknown: Altitude sickness is horrible. It's the worst sickness I've ever had. It isn't about preparation.
• 1:06
  It's often just a very genetic thing. Some people are good at it, some people aren't.
• 1:11
  Unknown: How did you get your brain to keep calm
• 1:14
  And when things are going wrong? Generally I really just try to hone in on what can I control in
• 1:17
  Unknown: the situation, because anything else is a waste of energy. The Often it's been things that I haven't
• 1:22
  anticipated, the things that have gone wrong. I was trying to run the Coast to Coast a few years
• 1:26
  ago, which is trying to run 186 miles in one go. 78 miles in, it
• 1:30
  was going really well, and out of the blue I just had a seizure. Now that was the end of that.
• 1:36
  Unknown: Right, Alex. You nearly died in an avalanche on Everest.
• 1:43
  Talk us through that day.
• 1:45
  Unknown: Yeah, the 25th of April 2015 is when it all went a bit wrong. I was on my
• 1:50
  second attempt on Everest, second expedition, after the first attempt the year before hadn't really
• 1:56
  gone to plan, uh due to an avalanche in the icefall which sadly killed 16 people. So in 2015
• 2:01
  we were moving through to Camp 1, and we were probably half an hour away from Camp 1 at
• 2:07
  the time. We'd We'd moved through the icefall, which is the most dangerous part of the entire route–
• 2:11
  You know, you've got house-sized blocks of ice, you've got crevasses
• 2:15
  hundreds of metres deep– and I was on my own at the time. And I remember, ironically, I didn't even
• 2:21
  feel the earthquake at the time. I didn't feel this earthquake that had just hit Nepal. And so there
• 2:27
  Unknown: was an earthquake? There was an earthquake. It had taken over 9,000 lives. All I remember of that day was hearing
• 2:32
  Unknown: this massive crack above my head, which is the sound of ice breaking off the the mountain to the
• 2:39
  left of me– 7,000-metre peaks hanging over the Western Cwm–
• 2:45
  and behind that you've got this distant boom of an avalanche coming straight for us. Now at the
• 2:50
  time I didn't really kind of work out what was going on. I knew I had to get out of there.
• 2:56
  Unknown: Did you know much about avalanches? I mean, did you– Well,
• 2:58
  Unknown: given what had happened the year before, and you and you hear about it– but you never think like you
• 3:02
  know I mean, you hear them all the time in the Himalayas, they're happening everywhere. But because
• 3:06
  the fog was so thick, I didn't actually realise this thing was coming straight down towards us. I
• 3:12
  just knew, because of the sound, I had to get a move on. And I suddenly had more energy than I'd had
• 3:16
  all day, and and I was moving faster than I'd moved all day, thinking, okay, I can't quite see this
• 3:21
  thing, I'm trying to work out you know where's this big wall of snow coming from. And I remember
• 3:27
  after a while kind of assuming
• 3:28
  that I was safe, and that it must have fallen behind us into the icefall.
• 3:33
  And then I kinda let my guard down for a moment, and as I did that, I kind of remember this
• 3:40
  you know this sudden pressure change around me, and then just being hit– like a whack, like a snow
• 3:46
  cannon– you know by this big wall of just white all around. The avalanche hit you. So yeah. Yeah. Wow. And in that split-second
• 3:53
  moment, for the first time– first time in my life, at 19 years old– I'm thinking, you know this
• 4:00
  this is it. it's It's game over.
• 4:03
  And there's nothing I can do but stand and take it. And in that split second, you know time 'cause
• 4:08
  kind of freezes still, no pun intended. You know y You don't know whether it's seconds or minutes,
• 4:13
  but all these things are flashing through your mind. and you think You feel guilt, you think of your
• 4:17
  family, and you think, any second now, that's it.
• 4:20
  But this wall of f freezing cold air kind of just– it was deafening, it kept coming, but the debris,
• 4:28
  the ice, never came. And you kind of expect it's just going to go black. And then suddenly, after a
• 4:33
  while, it just stopped. The mount the mountain went silent again. How haunting. And I remember like
• 4:39
  opening my eyes again. I was dusted in snow, I was shaking, the ropes had gone, but I was still
• 4:47
  here. And I think at that point you
• 4:50
  I realised actually I was still here. you know And pretty miraculously, this the debris never really
• 4:56
  hit us, so we got hit by basically a big blast of powder that had been dislodged. But in the moment you
• 5:02
  know you you only assume the worst. And I remember getting on the radio– no response. Try again– no
• 5:08
  response. So I assume that my teammates are gone, and I assume that I'm the only one. I
• 5:14
  think start thinking, has anyone made it to Camp 1?
• 5:19
  And all I could do was get to Camp 1. I had to get to safety. you know I was just in shock at that
• 5:23
  point. I was in survival mode.
• 5:25
  Unknown: Okay,
• 5:28
  so you got hit by– b is it like an outside of an avalanche, a part of an avalanche, the effects of
• 5:34
  an avalanche? Because it's air.
• 5:37
  Unknown: It was it was It was snow and air. And it was and it was it was basically part of the avalanche, I
• 5:42
  would say.
• 5:43
  Unknown: Okay. So you got hit by that, and you lost your ropes. What does that mean, in in you know for people
• 5:48
  that don't understand? like Is that your safety net?
• 5:52
  Unknown: The ropes were buried under all the all this fresh snow that had just hit us, so you couldn't
• 5:56
  really see them. And when you're moving through the section– bear in mind you've got massive crevasses
• 6:01
  hundreds of metres deep– the ropes are your safety net. We are clipped in on you know, on a fixed
• 6:05
  line at all times. That's what stops us falling down them, Um and we use them all the way up
• 6:10
  the mountain. Um So suddenly you feel like you've got no protection. You're just kind of moving
• 6:15
  blind. Now parts of this are really patchy, because at the time obviously that experience blurred a
• 6:21
  lot of things for me,
• 6:22
  but I remember just kind of thinking, I can't stay here, I've got to move, I've got to move. But these
• 6:27
  ropes, we just couldn't see them. Um And we you know we some of them did pull out, but you just– kind
• 6:31
  of I need to get out of here as fast as I possibly can, you know, and get to safety.
• 6:35
  Unknown: Okay. If we just rewind– why did you go there in the first place? Like, why are you choosing to
• 6:42
  climb Everest and put yourself in such a yeah, such a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous situation?
• 6:51
  Unknown: I think for me it started with adversity. and When I was a child I I'd always struggled, with uh just
• 6:57
  with my whole my whole experience through school– having epilepsy when I was nine, which
• 7:02
  was a trigger for anxiety and panic attacks. I was badly bullied because I was different. I've I've
• 7:07
  had a stammer all my life, so I've never really been able to express myself or communicate properly.
• 7:13
  And I never felt good enough. You know I always felt like I was a victim, like I was born to fail.
• 7:19
  And when I discovered the outdoors, through my first hill walk in the Lake District when I was about
• 7:24
  14, I just remember this sense of freedom and achievement, and that kind of safety I'd never had
• 7:32
  at school, where I could really be myself. And that real switch of mindset, to think actually we can't
• 7:39
  choose what life throws at us and what challenges we face, but we can choose our response to that.
• 7:45
  And from then on, I side decided– I made a conscious decision,
• 7:49
  and maybe didn't realise this at the time– that I wasn't going to let the adversity stop me. And at
• 7:54
  some point that day I had this light bulb moment where I asked myself, you know, where is Mount
• 8:01
  Everest? And I remember coming home, looking at pictures of this thing, and I became absolutely
• 8:07
  obsessed, fascinated, captivated. and It just seemed like the ultimate challenge, the ultimate goal,
• 8:12
  to prove myself and to prove those bullies wrong.
• 8:15
  Unknown: It it is it is the ultimate goal.
• 8:20
  It's like she calls you, you know, Mount Everest, i in a haunting way– but in a I get it. Like, I
• 8:27
  understand. I love nature too. But that power that you feel when you're in it, in that nature, and
• 8:34
  you're experiencing it, and you can get through it, and you can also enjoy it at the same time. And
• 8:41
  you understand that you're small and nature's grand. But just being there in the presence of nature,
• 8:50
  Mother Nature herself– it there is a sense of freedom and power. However, you chose yeah, the most
• 8:56
  difficult challenge there is. There is no higher peak. It is f incredibly dangerous. I mean, K2
• 9:02
  is another mountain that's also very dangerous– it's a horrible, you know, I think technically
• 9:07
  there's some some problems with that one– but Everest, you don't get higher than that. So you went
• 9:12
  for the the big thing. Yeah, the biggest. And to be honest,
• 9:16
  Unknown: I never really had the appeal for K2, because it's so much more objectively dangerous. And Everest just had
• 9:21
  something on me that I still struggle to n necessarily explain. Only people that maybe have been
• 9:26
  there will will will get that. Or People have their own version of that, you know, whether that being
• 9:30
  a career or a, you know, uh a a job title or something, or whatever that that is. But for me,
• 9:35
  Everest was the ultimate. And when you're 14, you're naive, you think you can
• 9:40
  take on the world– and we all make bad decisions as teenagers– but something got me. And I remember
• 9:45
  the goosebumps up my arm, and I took
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  that as like an intuition, as a sign, that this is what I've got to do. And I think because of the ev
• 9:51
  the adversity I I'd experienced as a child, I've always wanted to prove people wrong. I've wanted
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  to I've always been stubborn, I've always been very stubborn, and I can't explain that drive, but I
• 10:01
  just knew that nothing else mattered to me at that point in my t in my life. And I never never
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  dreamed at 14 that four years later I'd be there. you know.
• 10:11
  Unknown: Yeah. I think um if peop people listening to this story– they'll all have their Everest, you know, their
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  their thing that they would love to be able to do, that lures them, that calls them. But not
• 10:23
  everyone does it. So yeah, it's incredibly commendable um that you took that step, one step after
• 10:29
  the other, and you you decided to do that. But it is um it is a challenge, although it didn't always
• 10:36
  go well. You you spoke about one, you know, ad adversity– let's say
• 10:41
  failure. uh So how, in these triumphs, as you're trying to deal with you know what you've had in the
• 10:45
  past– you know, people bullying you, you've got that at the back of the mind your mind, and you're
• 10:49
  working through it you know, through the suffering on these mountains and these challenges– Um
• 10:54
  what about failure? What about when you didn't achieve the things, and you've got Mother Nature or
• 11:00
  whatever it is going, not today– not today?
• 11:05
  Unknown: Yeah. I think intrinsically most of us are afraid of failure. And I was, and I was terrified of
• 11:10
  failure, but I kind of used that fear to kind of drive me to work harder, to make sure that didn't
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  happen. And I think maybe naively, being younger, having not had that experience, I'd always been
• 11:20
  conditioned that if I just worked really hard I could have anything I wanted– which is true to an
• 11:24
  extent, but it doesn't alter the fact to the the point that in the mountains, they don't give a damn how hard
• 11:29
  you've worked or how much you spend. They really don't. I was about to say. And so I think
• 11:35
  that was really important for me, to be able to switch my whole perspective of failure at 18,
• 11:39
  on that first attempt– and realising that actually failure is about our response to the situation.
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  Like Ultimately, yes, we can fail on the objective. That can be outside of our control. But we can
• 11:49
  still be successful in how we deal with that situation, how we how we learn from it, how we grow,
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  how we pick ourselves back up again. And I think having had that avalanche the first year, which
• 11:58
  kind of cancelled the expedition literally before we even got to Base Camp, um I think it
• 12:05
  just took away that fear of failure. you know, Because now I know that even if I fail, it's not the
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  end of the world that we kind of assume it to be. And In fact, for me it's just an opportunity. And
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  I wouldn't be having this conversation today, I wouldn't have done 75% of the
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  things I've done, had I not failed, you know, in objective terms. And so many people, you know, they
• 12:25
  kill their dreams because of that fear of failure. And it's it's sad.
• 12:29
  Unknown: Okay, so for those that are stuck, and they they have that Mount Everest, their version of it, and they want
• 12:34
  to do that dream, but they're stuck– what do you say to them? Like wh How do you how did they get
• 12:38
  out of it?
• 12:41
  Unknown: I think there's a few aspects to that. I think it's partially it's wanting something enough. Like,
• 12:44
  if you want something, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll probably find an excuse, as the old
• 12:49
  saying goes.
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  Unknown: So so are you saying you don't want it bad enough, then?
• 12:53
  Unknown: Often that's the case. And I I think the c the difference between success and failure, in my opinion,
• 12:57
  is often about commitment. Like, you burn the bridges, you throw yourself in. It's not a case of, oh,
• 13:02
  I'd like to do that. It's a case of, I'm doing it. Even our language matters. The final thing I'd
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  say to those people is often, instead of asking what could happen– you know, what could go wrong,
• 13:11
  what if I fail, what if people think I'm stupid, what if this happens– is asking, what could
• 13:16
  happen if I don't? Kind of reframing that in terms of being motivated you know, away from
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  something rather than
• 13:23
  towards something. I love that. I think that's powerful. I think it's a stronger motivation if you're avoiding something than it is
• 13:29
  Unknown: to actually go towards something. Um So I think how we frame that in our minds is really important.
• 13:43
  Yeah, that's completely relevant, because on the mountain, on Everest, failure really could be death, very quickly.
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  So if you want to avoid death, what do you need to do? I mean, what are the things that you need to do?
• 13:49
  You need to have acclimatised– what else do you need to do? Like,
• 13:55
  a lot. Yeah, there is a lot to it. And I mean, yeah, pre preparation, everything. i you know Everest is
• 14:00
  Unknown: probably 90% mental, only 10% physical, in terms of how you approach it. And I
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  mean that was one of the main things I learned after the first trip– is you can be the fittest,
• 14:09
  strongest f athlete in the world, your body will react very differently at altitude. And I think in
• 14:15
  terms of managing the risk, I mean Tim, our leader, always spoke about kind of raising the safety net.
• 14:21
  So, you know by having the best possible team and Sherpas and oxygen.
• 14:25
  If you try to do Everest cheaply, you increase the risk, because you haven't got that in
• 14:29
  place. And that's where Everest sadly gets a bad name. Um And I think generally, even if you do all
• 14:34
  those things right, there is still a risk. Yeah. Yeah, life is risky. But i I think the biggest risk
• 14:40
  is taking no risk at all.
• 14:47
  Unknown: Yeah. I mean, in business, if this is a metaphor for how you do business– the cheap way, the shortcuts, they just will never, ever work. They'll always bite you.
• 14:54
  You can't You can't do that.
• 14:57
  Unknown: Yeah, we've all heard there's no shortcuts to success. And ultimately, you'll you'll let you know if
• 15:01
  if you buy cheap, you'll probably buy four times until you finally inve invest in it properly. And I
• 15:06
  knew with Everest that I had to do this in the proper way, and I had to jump through the hoops to
• 15:10
  feel that actually I'd managed everything to a level that I was happy with. You know, The risk will
• 15:14
  always be there, but you have to v kind of mitigate that risk to a level that you're comfortable
• 15:19
  with.
• 15:24
  Unknown: Okay, so there's a fine line between courage and recklessness, right? So when you are taking
• 15:27
  these risks– they and they are big, big risks– What is how do you know? Is there like a gauge
• 15:32
  somewhere that you can check, maybe within yourself, that no, I'm just being reckless, like this is c
• 15:38
  I d shouldn't be here, I shouldn't have done this? like How do you know?
• 15:44
  Unknown: I think it's very individual, you know, and it's very situational. For example, like I'd I'd be
• 15:49
  more terrified going into a bar full of strangers than I would be giving a talk on a stage to
• 15:54
  500 people. And because I've got co experience and I'm confident there– there is an
• 15:59
  element of learning on the job, and intuition. And it and intuition comes from experience. But uh
• 16:04
  then again, I would never do a BASE jump, because the risk is too high and the reward isn't big
• 16:09
  enough for me to justify that. So in terms of a gauge, it is intuition.
• 16:14
  Unknown: Think of an example. um Like, I I remember doing m doing my Three Peaks run a few years ago, and
• 16:20
  Unknown: halfway through I was in a bad way. you know I could barely run more than 10 metres at a time, for
• 16:25
  the swelling and the shin pain– and that's what happens when you try and run 50 miles a day, day
• 16:29
  after day after day. And I remember having an email off one of my sponsors telling me to stop. And
• 16:36
  they basically said something on the lines of, you know, we've been watching your progress, you're not
• 16:41
  going to make it, so why not you know just call it a day in
• 16:44
  and go home and rest? Yeah. And that comes from a place of care and intention and and you know, good
• 16:49
  intention. Um And in my head I was thinking, okay, this is a sign that it's gone too far, this is
• 16:54
  reckless here. But then I justify I I justified that in my head in terms of, I know myself and my
• 17:00
  body better than anyone, and actually I've been in this position before. And so ultimately it's about
• 17:06
  not not necessarily you know hearing what you want to hear, it, but hearing what you need to hear.
• 17:12
  you know. And a lot of people could have taken that as
• 17:14
  a reason, there's a good reason to stop, but I think you I think only if you're willing to risk
• 17:20
  going too far can we find out what's really possible. And I I I I've taken that risk. and and al And
• 17:25
  ultimately, often it's been things that I haven't anticipated, the things that have gone wrong– it
• 17:29
  wasn't like a known risk, for example. um I was trying to run the Coast to Coast a few years ago,
• 17:35
  which is trying to run 186 miles in one go. 78 miles in, it was
• 17:40
  going really well, and out of the blue I just had a seizure. Now that was
• 17:44
  the end of that. Never anticipated. It wasn't on the risk register. You know, I'd not had a seizure
• 17:49
  for 17 years. I've been doing all this hah having almost treated epilepsy as if it's gone.
• 17:54
  Um So you could say, well, obviously going back and doing it again would be stupid and be and would
• 17:59
  be risky. But I just trusted my instinct. I I trusted having the right people around me. And I spoke
• 18:05
  to the experts. I got their opinion, not my own. I spoke to the best m doctors and medics and brain
• 18:10
  specialists I could, basically to mitigate the risk–
• 18:14
  so that I couldn't remove it, but I could go into that knowing that actually I got the best advice
• 18:19
  I had available to me. Just by having people around us who are better than us. That's incredible advice, really, that you got the advice. Because we don't
• 18:23
  Unknown: ask enough. We don't ask people for help. We don't necessarily go to the experts when we should. But that information
• 18:33
  is power. And if someone– that is what they do– why not go to them and get the information? Because
• 18:45
  then you're well informed, then you can make the decision.
• 18:46
  And the other point that you raised, which I love, I love it so much, is the whole thing about
• 18:50
  listening to your inner voice, to your intuition. You know yourself better than anyone– that's what
• 18:56
  you've said, I know myself better than anyone. And that is valid. No one will know you the way you
• 19:02
  know yourself. So if you you really feel something, your instinct, you should trust it. And actually,
• 19:07
  there's huge danger and risk in not listening to your intuition.
• 19:12
  Unknown: Mm-hmm. There is. And the more I've made d uh I make decisions, the more I learn to trust it, because
• 19:18
  generally it's pretty right. And when I've gone against it, I've seen the evidence of that as well.
• 19:23
  Um And ultimately, like I knew that if I didn't get back out there soon and try again, that this
• 19:28
  thing wasn't going to happen. I was never going to get back out there. I was just going to stay in this pit
• 19:33
  of worry and and kind of what-ifs. and you know I need to get on on the bandwagon again very quickly,
• 19:37
  otherwise I was never going to get back out there. So that's why, when people were saying to me,
• 19:42
  like, you know, is it sensible to go back out there again when you've just had a seizure– And I
• 19:47
  said it was never sensible to begin with. you know. Um And six weeks later I went back, and I got
• 19:51
  124 miles before I stopped– not because of a seizure, just because of the joys
• 19:56
  of ultra running. So you know, I think a lot of it comes from instinct, but it also comes from
• 20:01
  having experts, you know, and people that you trust and rely on. And you know, ultimately, if it
• 20:07
  feels wrong, like it probably is. you know. And if it persists long enough– you
• 20:12
  if you've if you know that you're going against your own inner voice– then I think there's
• 20:15
  something really off.
• 20:16
  Unknown: Yeah. And normally, if there's like real the real red flags of the world– even if this goes with
• 20:21
  relationships and things– they'll show up pretty quickly. You'll see evidence.
• 20:26
  Unknown: Yeah. And often, I think if you if you're doing something that's really hard, I think I often say
• 20:31
  that you've got to have a go a good reason to quit. If you're kind of trying to justify why it's a
• 20:36
  good reason to quit– when you have no other choice but to quit, no, or no other realistic choice,
• 20:41
  like if a doctor or an ambulance is saying to you, you've got to stop– that if that choice is taken
• 20:45
  out of your hands, then I think that's different. I think if you think, oh, I'm a bit tired, I'm a
• 20:50
  bit sore– well, you signed up for that. Of course it's going to hurt. And I
• 20:54
  think if you have to justify it, or
• 20:56
  give a reason that you're you're not proud of, I think that's that says a lot.
• 21:00
  Unknown: Mm Interesting. So, Everest. It has become quite commercial, hasn't it? Um I love watching all kinds
• 21:08
  of Everest documentaries. I've always been just fascinated by the mountain, and I would love to climb
• 21:15
  it. But um but yeah you see the dark side of it too– the bodies on the way up, and and also the queues,
• 21:22
  you know, everyone lining up, and all these people desperately trying to get to the top.
• 21:30
  What do you feel about that?
• 21:33
  Unknown: I mean, I've not been high enough on the mountain to to to actually witness or experience this, so I'm
• 21:37
  not the the right person to really comment. I mean uh you know On the first trip we didn't get
• 21:41
  above Base Camp; the second we only got to Camp 1, which is only 6,000 metres. you know
• 21:46
  Everest is 8,850, so you've got Camp 2, 3, 4 and then the
• 21:50
  summit. Um So I think for me, partly, Everest has lost its magic– or some of it, or some of the magic
• 21:58
  that I had as a curious 14-year-old. And it is an
• 22:03
  incredibly beautiful place. The Himalayas, as you mentioned before, around perspective and feeling
• 22:07
  small– it's a whole new level. It blows your mind. And there's nowhere else like it, and that will
• 22:13
  never change. But I do think that you know, there is there there is an e an element of commercialisation.
• 22:19
  Like anything, The more the more people do it, the more people do it. And I don't think that
• 22:23
  undermines the achievement, because it's still the same height mountain, it's still very hard to get
• 22:27
  there. But ultimately there's a lot of people there that maybe shouldn't be there, or are making
• 22:32
  themselves
• 22:33
  a risk to not only themselves but other people around them. That's true. And so I I haven't experienced anything
• 22:37
  to comment. What I would say is often the media are like the media would maybe be using old you know
• 22:44
  old data, using old you know old images, and maybe actually not really showing the full story, um is
• 22:50
  what I gauge from hearing both sides of it. you know. And the queues, again, can be shown in certain
• 22:56
  lights and certain ways. For example, like if there's a a very narrow kind of
• 23:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:03
  you know window for summits, obviously everyone's going to be going on the same day. you know And all
• 23:07
  the Western operators are trying to avoid that, because they want to keep themselves and the client
• 23:12
  safe. But the media will obviously focus on that without giving the full picture. So generally, yes–
• 23:17
  like anywhere that gets busier, the more people that there are somewhere, the more problems we're
• 23:22
  going to have. And for me, I think if I if I was ever s going to going to go back, I would want to see
• 23:27
  that change, because it's just lost the m it's lost a lot of that magic for me. And that tainted–
• 23:31
  Yeah, but
• 23:33
  I I can't I can't say from first hand, but I do from what I hear from the people that are there is
• 23:37
  that a lot of this is just the same old stories, and a lot of them aren't true.
• 23:42
  Unknown: Yeah. The other thing that fascinates me– not in a good way– is the health side of it. So you know When you hear the stories of people that
• 23:47
  have gone up and then they develop this altitude sickness, which is just a c crazy idea to think
• 23:52
  about. Like, how does that feel? What does that mean? Why can't you see? What happened? Like, w didn't
• 23:57
  you acclimatise properly? The whole health side of it fascinates me. Have you ever experienced
• 24:03
  altitude sickness?
• 24:05
  Unknown: Altitude sickness is horrible. It's the worst sickness I've ever had. It's oh it's horrific. I was
• 24:10
  always really quite unlucky, in that I was generally the first one to get ill. And a lot of that isn't
• 24:15
  know about isn't about preparation. It's often just a very genetic thing. Some people are good at
• 24:20
  it, some people aren't. Like on one of my expeditions– so not even Everest– I went post-Everest I
• 24:26
  went to then try and climb the sixth highest mountain in the world, called Cho Oyu, in Tibet. What
• 24:32
  Unknown: altitude is that? 8,200. So it's 8,200
• 24:35
  Unknown: metres. It's the
• 24:38
  easiest 8,000-metre peak. Very high. On that trip, I was 21.
• 24:43
  I trained even harder for that than Everest. I was in a whole new shape and experience
• 24:48
  level. And just you know despite that, I was I was by I I struggled more than anyone. And there were
• 24:54
  people on my trip in their 60s, who did very little training other than maybe just cycling to
• 24:59
  work, who didn't get even get a single headache. And they just cruised all the way through the trip.
• 25:04
  And it's infuriating. It seems unfair, but it's just the way the
• 25:08
  mountains work. So wha what do you feel when you have altitude sickness?
• 25:11
  The worst I've been was probably on that trip, when I got up to the advanced camp, which was about 5,700,
• 25:16
  and my blood oxygen went down to 54. You lose
• 25:21
  your appetite, you're very nauseous, you you have a splitting headache, you can barely walk. It's
• 25:28
  the worst level of sickness. dizzy. Vertigo? Not so much, from what I remember. You
• 25:34
  just feel very, very sick, and you can be very lethargic.
• 25:38
  And when when my expedition leader saw that score, he threw me in a jeep and I was out of there. Now,
• 25:43
  it just meant I needed more time. And then I was taking um a drug called Diamox, which helps
• 26:04
  with the acclimatisation, having gone back down again and recovered. I just needed more time. Once I
• 26:05
  had more time, I was as strong as everyone else. But at the high camp, when we got on our
• 26:06
  summit push– so we went up to 7,200 metres, which is the highest I've ever
• 26:07
  been, uh well, ju just short of 7,200. At this point we were uh on oxygen, because
• 26:08
  we're that high. That night I went out for the summit and I knew something wasn't right. I was
• 26:13
  throwing up, projectile, all over the tent. Oh dear. I could barely speak. I was I couldn't walk in a
• 26:18
  straight line. It's like I was drunk. And that is the early onset of high altitude cerebral oedema,
• 26:23
  which can be fatal. So that's like the extreme end of altitude sickness– You know, there's HACE and
• 26:29
  there's HAPE. So at that point I was on steroids and I was I was going down. So yeah,
• 26:34
  that's the more severe end. When you're trekking you know,
• 26:38
  into Base Camp, a lot of people will get altitude sickness. Most people don't escape it. Often it can
• 26:43
  just be headaches– really splitting migraine headaches– it can be nausea, it can be vomiting. Um
• 26:49
  But with time you acclimatise. This is why we go slowly. But even then, even people that have been
• 26:56
  to altitude lots of times can suddenly get it. Wow. I
• 26:59
  Unknown: can't imagine 54. I mean, I had to do something the other day, It's actually, for a um
• 27:05
  a client, Um and I had my oxygen level tested, and it was 99. Yeah. What was it–
• 27:10
  99, and then down and then all the way to 54. But it's quite normal– even at Base Camp, your oxygen is around 80. So that's your normal operating.
• 27:28
  Unknown: You can feel fine even if it's low. But even at Base Camp people can get very serious early if they go too fast, and that's when you need to be going down.
• 27:29
  Unknown: Wow. Have you ever had hypothermia?
• 27:32
  Unknown: I have. And not in the Himalayas, actually. it was The worst case I've had of it was when I was
• 27:38
  trying to run something called the Bob Graham Round, in the Lake District, which is basically a 66-mile
• 27:43
  run to 42 peaks. So it actually basically nearly climbs the height of
• 27:49
  Everest in one go. uh And the goal is under 24 hours. Now, this was August, and I was trying
• 27:54
  to run it solo. I didn't do the 24-hour target, so I just thought, well, I'll finish what I
• 27:59
  start, and it took me 27 and a half. But I was so
• 28:02
  wet and so cold– in the summer, in August. yeah, just I'm I'm not eating enough. I learned a lot that day. I
• 28:08
  got very complacent. And I basically, when I finished, I was very elated, and next thing, I collapsed on
• 28:13
  the floor with hypothermia. And it's incredibly scary, how– it you know given my experience, I never
• 28:19
  thought it would happen to me. So i even August, you're never immune. Can I ask you, like– were you shivering? Did you have symptoms of it?
• 28:29
  Well, the thing is, because I was on my own for most of this, I had all the kit with me. I had you know, had food with
• 28:34
  me. I think I I didn't notice anything, and that was it. Because normally I'm very aware of, okay, I'm
• 28:39
  a bit cold, I need to put some layers on here, I need to I need to change. But there was no signs.
• 28:43
  I just remember stopping, celebrating, and– I think because I'd suddenly stopped, obviously you're not
• 28:49
  producing heat– and within 20 minutes I felt very dizzy, and I'm just like lying on the floor,
• 28:54
  spinning around the world. That's frightening. It was. Because next thing, like all I remember was hearing voices, and then
• 28:59
  I'm in the the back of an ambulance, and then I spent spent the night in Carlisle hospital. So
• 29:03
  obviously I'm not proud of that. It was really bad management. But it just shows that even in
• 29:07
  August it can catch anyone out, if it could catch me out.
• 29:10
  Unknown: Well, I'm glad you said that, and and and people can hear this– that you can actually you you might
• 29:14
  not have any warning signs that you might have hypothermia. And make sure you tell people when you're
• 29:19
  going out to do these things. Because that's the thing– it's wild. The thing is,
• 29:22
  Unknown: I just wanted to sleep– which is understandable, given I'd been running for 27 hours. But
• 29:26
  the thing is, I didn't realise there was hypothermia. And had I had I just gone home and gone to bed,
• 29:30
  who knows, I may not have come around. So it obviously I learned a lot about that, and it's
• 29:34
  something I've been very scared of since. Like, I'm now very sensitive to to the cold. And um if I
• 29:39
  can use this experience to educate people, then that's that's a positive thing.
• 29:44
  Unknown: Yes, please do. So so when you did this r this run– so wh what was it? Was it the type of fabric that
• 29:48
  you were wearing that possibly you could have changed, or should you have worn more layers, or or
• 29:52
  what? Just for people to keep people safe out there. wha what have you?
• 29:56
  Unknown: Yeah, spare layers. And also you you have to produce and it you have to produce heat, by food and
• 30:00
  water. You know And I was– bear in mind I was solo, I was carrying most of it by myself. There was no
• 30:05
  change of dry layers. Having spare layers in a dry bag at all times– but when you're running for
• 30:10
  27 hours, n eventually they're going to run out. So most people do this challenge supported,
• 30:14
  with a crew. With a crew, that's right. So obviously I d I d I tried to kind of wing it, and learned the hard way. You
• 30:20
  Unknown: do some extreme, wild things, but you learn from them. You know you I would call these teething
• 30:25
  problems, even though they're quite advanced teething problems. But you learn from it. You will
• 30:30
  never do that again, will you? You will have a dry bag and a team. And I've done much bigger things since then. And obviously I'm glad
• 30:42
  Unknown: I had that experience, because it's probably prevented something more serious happening. Yeah, it's made you– yeah, you're becoming a pro. And when I you know when you introduce yourself, you
• 30:47
  Unknown: know the, the USPs, the things about you, the things you've done– it's because you've gone
• 30:52
  through all these things, and you've achieved these things through learning, failure, trials, and you've
• 31:00
  built up a lot of experience in doing so. All these challenges. um When you faced all these
• 31:07
  difficult moments, how did you get your brain
• 31:12
  to keep calm and override the sort of panic station thing?
• 31:18
  Unknown: I often don't. I mean, I'm a very anxious person, still. um But I'm better at managing that now, and I'm
• 31:23
  I'm a lot more self-aware. And I think, again, it comes from experience– which isn't maybe helpful
• 31:29
  for people that maybe haven't done it yet, but that's why, as we keep raising the bar, obviously that
• 31:34
  confidence and and awareness grows alongside us. Um But I think when things are going wrong,
• 31:40
  generally I really just try to hone in on what can I control. Like, what can I control in the
• 31:45
  situation? Because anything else is a waste of energy, and a waste of
• 31:48
  worry. Um But I think also it's it's having a clear why. It's knowing why I started. Like, okay,
• 31:54
  what's my reason to keep on going? If that isn't strong enough, you're probably going to find
• 31:59
  excuses. Secondly, yeah, it's that piece about the controllables– okay, like what can I do in the
• 32:03
  situation? So when I get injured, when something happens, it's like, okay, accept it, let it go, what
• 32:09
  else can I do in the situation? I think thirdly, often it's just that law of impermanence– knowing
• 32:17
  that this situation
• 32:18
  it might feel really hard right now, but tomorrow is a new day. A lot can change. You. know, If your
• 32:23
  business is going really badly, or something's happening right now– and I know that's obviously on
• 32:28
  a scale of of severity– you know, a lot can change, and you've just sometimes got to break it down
• 32:34
  to the next milestone. If if a full day is too much, just focus on the next mile. Get there, reassess.
• 32:39
  Get there, reassess.
• 32:42
  Unknown: I had to hear that. I had three big not-so-nice things happen business-wise. Just three– the it's
• 32:49
  always in threes, isn't it? It's like Boom, boom, boom, straight after I came back from holiday.
• 32:56
  Literally one thing served on a plate after the next, and I was just like, oh no. And you have to
• 33:03
  try and process through that. But it's it is relaxing, in a way, to know it will pass. And what you
• 33:09
  said before, as in, you you become better, become
• 33:12
  better as you navigate through these things.
• 33:15
  Unknown: Yeah. I think I've got a few friends who uh who I've been supporting recently, outside
• 33:20
  my family, and like they've had a lot of bad stuff happen to them, and as you say, almost in threes.
• 33:24
  And I think, God, how unfair has life been. But then if I have three good things, I start thinking,
• 33:29
  okay, I'm due something bad. too. I think if you if you If you expect it and you embrace it, I think
• 33:34
  you it loses its power. you know, But also, my default response now– generally, not immediately, it's
• 33:39
  okay to be human, I have a bit of a whinge about it– but then I think, okay,
• 33:45
  what's the opportunity here? Like? And s at some point, in a year's time or further down the line, I
• 33:49
  think, oh, that happened, but actually I'm glad, because it did this, or I learned this from it. Um. and
• 33:52
  It just doesn't mean make it less annoying, but it just loses the power over it.
• 33:56
  Unknown: I love your mindset. It's like you've been designed by nature in the right way. you, know you've
• 34:01
  been Nature's done some work on your mind. It's what you were saying at the start–
• 34:06
  Unknown: I spent a lot of time there. you, know I. I think we've all lost touch with nature as well. And if we
• 34:11
  lose you know when we lose that connection with it, I think we really lose intrinsically who we are.
• 34:16
  you, know as well. And uh nature and adversity, I think, are the best teachers of all.
• 34:24
  Unknown: Could you ever go back to a life before? Like, before, you're f when you were 14, and you started
• 34:28
  these adventures– could you go back to how it was before, and have a "normal", I quote, life?
• 34:35
  Unknown: I mean, I'm 30 now, and like it feels like I've been doing this all my life. I don't really remember
• 34:41
  much about this, other than maybe being conventional– in in conventionally in the loose terms of, like,
• 34:48
  I did what everyone else did. I wanted to fit in. I just did kind of normal things. There's
• 34:53
  nothing wrong with that, but I didn't have any real ambition or purpose for my life. Um And so I
• 34:59
  would never change anything. you know, I think Obviously back then it's great, when you don't have the
• 35:05
  commitments and the pressures and and all that of life now– but I've chosen all that for myself. And
• 35:10
  you know I think I'm very grateful for all the adversity, because it's got me to where I am, and the
• 35:15
  experiences and the people I've been able to encounter. Um So could I go back? It feels so long ago
• 35:20
  that I can't even imagine or even feel it any more. You're just not that person. For me, it feels like uh it w I'd be stepping
• 35:27
  down from where I am. And I want to be stepping up, not go not going backwards.
• 35:35
  Unknown: Yeah. What's the biggest misconception people have about mental toughness, do you think?
• 35:40
  Unknown: I mean, I see you know I see probably m resilience being a concept well being a component, sorry, of
• 35:46
  mental toughness– so if we if we see it as the same kind of thing. I think often people see that
• 35:51
  that resilience piece as you know the ability to just keep on pushing, to be stoic. you know That
• 35:56
  ability to kind of keep being punched and keep on going, and keep on going, and keep on running, or keep
• 36:01
  on striving in business. I think actually the conception of it is is is actually that conception, and
• 36:07
  that definition, is wrong. My definition of resilience,
• 36:10
  to be sustainable, is that ability to recharge. It's knowing when to step back, to reassess, to regroup,
• 36:16
  to go again. like Not to keep on going until you've kind of crashed and burned– because I've
• 36:21
  burnt out before, and I've learned from that. And I think the misconception of toughness is that
• 36:26
  almost ability to n you know to almost avoid pain. I don't think it's avoiding pain. I think it's
• 36:31
  just dealing with it in a different way, And even if that means taking a step back, you know taking
• 36:37
  care of yourself.
• 36:40
  Unknown: I'm with you on that. And I also didn't respect breaks and things. But if you think about training like an athlete, properly– you need your intervals. If you want to be faster at running, you need to do your interval training. You need to
• 36:48
  have that speed for whatever, one minute, two minutes, whatever it might be, whichever interval you're
• 36:55
  doing. Break. Break. That's what allows you to go again. And even within that, it's like, okay, you can only do that what, twice a week,
• 37:10
  maybe– not too much, because you need to fit that with the easy runs in between, otherwise you will pull a muscle or do something. And then even within that, you've got to sort of push for four weeks, then take off a
• 37:16
  week, then push again for four weeks. So there's so much rest and recuperation built into really,
• 37:22
  really, really serious training. And it's the same, I think, with really, really, really serious life,
• 37:29
  you know and work, um business, whatever it is you've got going on. You've got to rest. Yeah. And I think that
• 37:40
  Unknown: rest is what allows us to challenge ourselves. People could say, well, running ultramarathons isn't going to help you
• 37:43
  recharge. But I think it's you know for me, the components of sustainable performance is is not only
• 37:49
  having grit and mindset, but it's also having recharging time. you know And you know we often say we
• 37:54
  don't have time to stop, but we find time when we're ill ill or injured or burnt out, because then we
• 38:00
  have no choice.
• 38:02
  Unknown: Well, yes. Well, life will teach you the lessons you have to learn. I mean, that did happen to me, because
• 38:07
  I burnt out and developed a thyroid problem– a gra Graves' disease– because I just kept going. And I
• 38:13
  was like, oh no, I c I can't allow myself to take a break, because that would be being lazy, so I have
• 38:18
  to push through this. And my body wasn't happy about that. And then it finally, m you know, my body
• 38:23
  put the reins on me, because I wasn't reining myself in. So my body said, stop it, right away. And I
• 38:29
  had to stop immediately. And now,
• 38:32
  when I have this urge and I want to– I have to just chill out. It's so hard. It's so hard. But I
• 38:38
  respect it. And it's what you were saying– I respect that.
• 38:44
  Unknown: Yeah. I mean, until I got long Covid, I didn't really respect it. you know, And that forced me to
• 38:49
  manage my energy much more carefully. I mean, that's that's gone now, and and it was the worst year
• 38:54
  of my life. But for a while I didn't think I was ever going to get back to this this life, in this
• 38:59
  world. you know, And I didn't that was my identity. you know, And back to that point earlier on– I
• 39:04
  would never want to go back to living a life that's less than I'm capable of. you know. Um But the as
• 39:09
  always, the opportunity that came from that is I'm now s I'm much better at saying no to things,
• 39:14
  and I know when my energy level is is down. and you know Even with the charity– it's ironic that the
• 39:21
  charity burnt me out, because I cared too much, and I gave too much of myself, and there was nothing
• 39:25
  left for the fight. And you can't help anyone, you can't lead, when you're burnt out.
• 39:30
  Unknown: Okay, so talk to us about the charity. so, what what What was it, what did you do, what happened?
• 39:36
  Unknown: Well, I think after Everest I kind of realised that maybe big mountains weren't for me, and you know I
• 39:41
  I've really switched to focusing on ultra-endurance challenges in the UK, and trying to do things
• 39:45
  that maybe haven't been done before. And along the lines, you know that led to um a chance
• 39:50
  conversation, and then doing an event in the Lake District in 2018, with a group called
• 39:56
  Adventure Uncovered– and basically a retreat to promote the benefits of of nature and hill walking
• 40:01
  for mental health. Now, I've used nature as my therapy since I've been a teenager. And
• 40:06
  I've had therapy, I've been on on all sorts of medications– and and still, being in nature is the
• 40:11
  cheapest and the best therapist I've had.
• 40:14
  I'm not saying it's a miracle cure, and anyone should just go out and do it and they'll be c they'll
• 40:18
  they'll be fine– it's something we have to manage– but I do think that it's it's something everyone
• 40:22
  should have access to.
• 40:24
  So this weekend kind of became the catalyst for for starting a charity. And I never planned to start
• 40:30
  a charity in my twenties. But we've really found the power in this unique combination of hill
• 40:35
  walking and coaching and counselling and mindfulness– and essentially just giving people that safe
• 40:41
  space to walk and talk, alongside that professional mental mental health support. Lovely. And yeah, I think
• 40:47
  when we're outside, we have we can really open up and have those difficult conversations, than maybe
• 40:53
  we would in
• 40:54
  a boardroom or in an office with someone. And so it's about giving people that space, so they don't have to wait for help on a waiting list, like I did, for months or years. And I think ultimately the charity came about because it took me longer to get the help I needed as a teenager, with
• 41:14
  my own struggles, than it did to cycle, walk and run 5,000 miles around the country. So the charity kind of grew from that opportunity, and it's just gone from there. And
• 41:24
  it's kind of m my baby, really.
• 41:26
  Unknown: It's your baby. You proud of it?
• 41:28
  Unknown: Yeah. you know Like any any baby, it has tantrums. But you know I'm it's a real privilege now,
• 41:33
  almost, as a founder and as a trustee, to to have handed it on, to sort of step back and to focus on
• 41:38
  you know where can I make my biggest impact, for us to reach where we need to be. you, know And um
• 41:43
  part of that was reaching burnout, and having to admit to our team, like, uh this isn't sustainable–
• 41:48
  if I go down, the whole thing's going to go down– and being able to let go and put my hand up. And I
• 41:53
  think as as leaders that's really important.
• 41:56
  It's very difficult to do.
• 41:58
  Unknown: It is, it is. I just had to set the example. But had had we not done that, I don't think the charity
• 42:02
  Unknown: would be thriving as it is now.
• 42:05
  Unknown: And What a lovely charity.
• 42:07
  Unknown: It's It's special. I think what we do is is unique. you know And uh it's it's from that initial walk,
• 42:12
  it's bigger now than we ever dreamed.
• 42:15
  Unknown: Okay. If you found out you only had three years left, would you regret not doing something? Is there
• 42:20
  something on that list that you've not done?
• 42:25
  Unknown: People often say I've done quite a lot in my years, and I feel like I have. Um So I don't really
• 42:30
  regret anything, because I've made the decisions with what I wanted at the time. I
• 42:35
  feel like I've done enough, but I don't think I want to stop. Um uh not doing um The only thing I
• 42:44
  maybe regret– I don't think regrets are useful, because it happened, and it's gone, we can't
• 42:49
  change it– but the one thing I do regret is on Cho Oyu, in Tibet, which is the the sixth highest
• 42:54
  peak in the world.
• 42:55
  um When I went there after Everest, I got to– just got on the summit push, and I decided to wait
• 43:01
  until the second night before going for the top. I felt I was I was exhausted, I needed more rest,
• 43:06
  I needed more time to recover. You don't recover at 7,000 metres. And by staying up there
• 43:11
  an extra night, seeing everyone else coming down– people who summited, but they were snow-blind,
• 43:16
  there was one with frostnip– it really knocked my confidence, and also I deteriorated. And of
• 43:21
  course, I didn't summit. And I've always wondered what would have happened
• 43:25
  had I gone at that first opportunity. I was waiting for the perfect moment. And I think the lesson
• 43:30
  from there is, sometimes you've just got to make a decision based on what you know, and and go for it.
• 43:35
  And I wondered, would I have finally summited an 8,000-metre peak? Who knows. But then
• 43:40
  again, had I done that, maybe I wouldn't have gone on the path I did. Um
• 43:44
  Unknown: that That is such a classic, because uh s that happens to everyone– of like you you don't do
• 43:50
  something because you will only do it when it's you're perfectly ready to do it, and there's not
• 43:56
  always the perfect time to do something. It's that moment,
• 44:03
  Unknown: yeah. And there's other m there's other moments like that, where I look back in hindsight and think,
• 44:05
  ah, if I'd just pushed a little bit harder. Like, I missed the record on the Three Peaks run by about
• 44:10
  an hour. Ah. You know, all those marathons, by an hour.
• 44:14
  But in the moment– when I think back, it's it's hard to put yourself in that level of exhaustion and
• 44:19
  pain, and to the point when I can't eat, I can't speak, I can barely move, and expect more of myself
• 44:25
  in hindsight, when in the moment I was doing everything I could. But you always wonder, what if this,
• 44:30
  what if that, what if I tried that, what if I just asked for help sooner? But it's not useful. It's
• 44:36
  not useful, you know. Um And everything else is just a learning journey.
• 44:41
  Unknown: Yeah. It's it's actually uh a waste of energy. If you think about the parallel to climbing the
• 44:47
  mountain– you know, you don't want to breathe unnecessarily fast and and, you know, lose that
• 44:53
  energy. You don't want to eat all your food and then have no food left. So you've got to pace yourself
• 44:58
  with things correctly. And at the same time, you can't waste your mental energy, your physical mind
• 45:04
  strength, on things that have passed. It's what you said earlier– it's
• 45:10
  like, what's next,
• 45:11
  what's next, I'm moving forward, how do I progress? But it isn't doing it blindly. It's really
• 45:17
  learning from from your own– we say mistakes, but experiences, we'll call them, because we all
• 45:23
  have our own experiences– and using them as an asset.
• 45:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:30
  Unknown: Yeah. you know And ultimately, like I think experience in the mountain is what is in the mountains is
• 45:36
  what keeps you alive. And and you could say that in business as well, you know and um and in in any
• 45:41
  in any kind of factor of life. you know And people p p people say to me often, oh, well, you know, you
• 45:47
  know I didn't fail– yes, I failed, objectively, but I think I've turned failures into something
• 45:53
  successful. And you know I think that the main thing I've learned from all of this is that sense of
• 46:00
  the fragility
• 46:00
  of time. and you know People say, oh you've got lots of time to do that thing, why not wait and do that
• 46:05
  when you're older? and Same with Everest– like m my m my my parents were very supportive, but they
• 46:09
  were never going to sign me a cheque. I had to find a way myself and raise it through corporates you
• 46:14
  know through corporate sponsorship, which is like 35 grand. And they were saying to me, why
• 46:19
  not wait till you've done your A-levels and done your studies, and you know gone and kind of got a
• 46:23
  degree, and follow the sort of conventional route? And I just kind of said no.
• 46:30
  And I'm glad I did. Um So ultimately, I think it's sometimes, like I could say, it's about throwing
• 46:35
  yourself in the deep end and learning to swim.
• 46:38
  Unknown: Yeah. So for someone who's just stumbled across this podcast– they don't know you, they've never
• 46:44
  heard of you– fro of you, what do you want them to take from this, from your lessons and adventures?
• 46:53
  Unknown: Um I mean, the book has the full story– but uh no, joking. Um. You know, I think ultimately, I I I
• 46:59
  really I really think my my journey is around resilience through adversity. And I really want people to
• 47:05
  think that, whatever is going on for them in their life, I'd like to see myself as an example that
• 47:11
  it can be done– in the same way that I had role models and people that I followed, who showed me it
• 47:15
  could be done, even when life gives you lots of reasons not to. Whether that's a stammer, whether
• 47:20
  that's epilepsy, whether that's just self-doubt or self-confidence
• 47:23
  or anxiety, or whatever whatever that is, You know I want people to to really realise that actually,
• 47:29
  you know the time is now. If you've been wanting to do something, you know you've got to throw
• 47:34
  yourself in the deep end, commit yourself. Because people don't don't don't commit, because they
• 47:39
  find reasons not to. And deep down, if they're really honest with themselves, I think the biggest barrier
• 47:43
  is themselves. So I want them to think that actually, like if I can be knocked down time and time
• 47:49
  again and keep on going– you know it's success is very
• 47:53
  a relative. you know, As I said before, y I might be fine on a stage in front of hundreds of people,
• 47:58
  or running a marathon in the mountains in the wind and the rain. Put me in a social situation, put
• 48:03
  me you know, put me on The Apprentice, and I'd be terrified. you know. Um
• 48:07
  Put me on the London Underground in a packed Tube and I'll go I'll go mad. But everyone has their own challenges, and it's relative. And I think ultimately, we spend so
• 48:16
  much time comparing ourselves to other people, rather than comparing ourselves to where we used
• 48:19
  to be and where we want to be. I think that's all that really matters.
• 48:23
  Unknown: Yeah. It's so good, so good. I cannot believe you've been there, Everest. I just can't believe– I
• 48:29
  can't believe you've done the runs you have. I mean, I love running, I love sports, I'm mad about
• 48:34
  nature, I'm completely obsessed. If I could do sports all day I and be outside, 100%
• 48:38
  would do that. I grew up outdoors– South African upbringing. Oh yeah. and Trees and bikes, and–
• 48:43
  I'm s yeah, I'm super sporty and love all that stuff anyway. But yeah, Everest has always been
• 48:48
  calling. The problem is, I've had kids. you know And you think– you know, it's an excuse maybe, but it's like,
• 48:53
  there is a time you go, when you know, you don't have dependants, and you don't have– you know um,
• 48:58
  there are times for things. But it's just such a– it's also, I I ma I'm actually Polish. so, I grew up
• 49:04
  in South Africa, but like a lot of Polish pioneers were the first ones to go on– there's
• 49:09
  something in the Polish minds. Yeah. I think
• 49:12
  Unknown: that was partially why I rushed so much to do Everest so soon. You did the right thing. It's when you're young, when
• 49:18
  Unknown: you when uh when I don't have, like, rent to pay, and you're not scared, and you don't have commitments. Yeah, it was less at
• 49:23
  Unknown: risk. And people said to me, oh why why you know why not wait? But I didn't want to. At the time– like bef
• 49:29
  before speaking and things, I used to I used to work in hotels and kitchens, and I'd hear people whinge
• 49:34
  about the jobs. I never, ever want to live in that way.
• 49:38
  And you know I don't have a family or anything, so I'm quite lucky that even now I can
• 49:42
  still go off and do something. Yeah. Your VO2 max must be insane. I had it tested, yeah. What is it, what is it? Tell me. I think it was
• 49:48
  like 62. It wasn't– It's bloody good. Well, I'm hoping it's improved now. 62 is– yeah, so you're– that's proper, you know, like pro
• 49:54
  Unknown: athlete.
• 50:00
  Unknown: Not quite. I mean, I think it I think it was "superior" for my age. It is a superior, for sure. I want to
• 50:05
  get tested again, because I did a talk at the University of Doncaster, and then they basically
• 50:10
  then their sports department said, oh, come back and we'll put you on. But I'd been ill at the time,
• 50:15
  so I didn't really give it 100%. And I've got I've knocked about two minutes off my
• 50:19
  5k time. Okay, so you're going to probably be at 68 or so, maybe 70. Yeah, I'd love to hit 70. I mean, my 5k time has come down, but
• 50:26
  obviously– What is your 5k time? 16:20. I'm
• 50:30
  trying to get under– It's up there. I'm trying to get under 16 this year, if I can. But
• 50:36
  Unknown: like, 5k is fast. I th The thing is, like I've I've switched from doing ultras now to
• 50:41
  Unknown: trying to get as fast as I can while I'm young enough, and I love it. I've got Chester Marathon in October, and
• 50:47
  that's my like A_ goal. which Doing a marathon, compared to the stuff I've done, might seem like an
• 50:52
  easy step, but it's like it's all about how fast you go, you know, and I want to see how fast I can
• 50:58
  get around that. But ultimately, 5k
• 51:00
  is like VO2 max effort, so it's always a a good indicator. Oh yeah. And I'd love to go back in maybe six
• 51:05
  months and see if my score's higher. I'd love it to be 70, but that is like elite level, so I
• 51:09
  don't think– I'd I'd be like um But also, a lot of it is genetic.
• 51:22
  Yeah, it is, it is for sure. I've got a client– I'm actually coaching people now in running as well. So I coach
• 51:26
  people on mindset, and I work a lot with, I guess, aspiring leaders as well, but I also coach athletes now. Um I've got a guy who's obsessed with VO2 max, and he I'm like,
• 51:30
  actually, this is probably genetic. you know 'Cause. you can You can improve it to an extent, but
• 51:34
  your VO2 max really isn't that important– Like your times and your heart rate are more important.
• 51:39
  Um But he's obsessed with it. And actually like the best indicator is probably your your times.
• 51:45
  Unknown: Yeah. So mine s is like 21:30, and that's with, like, m amateurish training. Now I'm probably
• 51:51
  a little bit slower, because I had a plantar fasciitis injury. and I've
• 51:56
  Unknown: Oh I had that last year. It's horrible. Is it–
• 51:58
  Unknown: can it go away, please? Because it's getting a bit– luckily I've restarted running, but it's just a
• 52:03
  bit– but but yeah. um but I've gotta like I I did one of those test things, like a hybrid build. So
• 52:08
  my VO2 max is actually not brilliant– it's like medium– you know but I've got the ability to
• 52:13
  regenerate, and like, endurance and power. So I'm more of a hybrid athlete anyway. it's But you're
• 52:18
  right, so there's so many other factors that are genetic. and there's They did the whole gene test,
• 52:23
  and it really depends on the configuration of those, and which
• 52:28
  doubles you have or not, and blah blah blah. So it's all very complicated, to what you're good at.
• 52:33
  Which explains why I was very good at n more like a netball player– the short, sort of, fast twitch. Yes, exactly. Because I guess I'm just full of, like, slow twitch endurance. Which has helped– but that's why that's the only sport I
• 52:55
  Unknown: have any kind of ability at. I'm hopeless at everything else. I've just been built to run. You've got a big engine. Yeah. But then again, if you put me in CrossFit or something, I'd be hopeless.
• 52:56
  I've got no muscle on me whatsoever. But yeah, luckily, I do I just run. But it helps with the endurance side of it. I hope the 446
• 53:01
  would give me– I r having that level of base would help, but obviously it's not
• 53:05
  high-end speed, so you're going to lose a lot of the– over capacity. But– um I went to South Africa a
• 53:10
  few years ago, to Cape Town. I've got off a friend out there. And uh you know I did enjoy it. Yeah, it's so
• 53:15
  Unknown: good,
• 53:17
  so good,
• 53:18
  so much. I mean, the plan this year is the a Dolomites, in Italy, just to hike. So again, the in the
• 53:24
  Unknown: Himalayas– like if you get the chance to go, it it it is just a whole new level. But even places in
• 53:29
  Europe can have the same effect.
• 53:38
  Unknown: I've just come from the Pyrenees. I was thinking, oh, how high is this? So I came from Andorra, literally now, and I was like, okay, well, this is about– it's 2,400 or something like
• 53:42
  that, the highest– maybe not the highest, but that's sort of the elevation. And then I was thinking, literally thinking about it– I know your podcast interview is coming up, and I'm thinking, yeah,
• 53:48
  Everest– so take this, put another one, put another one, put– then you get to Everest. And it just
• 53:54
  showed the magnitude of that monster. It's like– what?
• 53:58
  Unknown: I've got a poster, on our which is at my mum's house, at home, so like you know in my old bedroom. And
• 54:03
  it's um Everest from from the north face, from Tibet, and it's sunset. And it's just it's mind-blowing.
• 54:09
  And that's what but I saw when I saw that as a kid, that's what got me. And it's gone a little bit
• 54:14
  now, and that's why I let go of it– because I realised I could go back, but I wouldn't be going for me.
• 54:18
  I'd be going for the wrong reason. Yeah. For the wrong reason. I guess I didn't really talk much about
• 54:22
  that in the podcast, which was interesting. I realised when I t I think well something happened when
• 54:26
  I turned 30 last year. you know and I just had
• 54:28
  this light bulb moment of, I'm chasing validation. I'm doing this for something external, rather
• 54:34
  than for myself. And that's never a sustainable source of motivation, because when you get there, you
• 54:39
  always want more and more and more. And more. I'd also, you know you'll never please everyone. Um And
• 54:46
  I think as a kid there was something in me that was like trying to prove something– but along the
• 54:50
  journey I realised I had nothing left to prove, and therefore I'd been doing the goal for the wrong
• 54:54
  reason. Um So ultimately, that's why I've decided now, at
• 54:58
  least for this year, I'm just going to focus on doing stuff that I enjoy and I'm excited by– which is
• 55:03
  running marathons and trying to get as fast as I can. So um so yeah, I've kind of had a bit of a
• 55:08
  quarter-life crisis at 30. But I'm I'm glad, because I've just let go of a lot of things
• 55:14
  that aren't important. And we see it all the time– people are always wanting more and more and more.
• 55:18
  But if you're trying to do it for something external that you can't control, like comparing
• 55:22
  ourselves, it's a bit of an endless pursuit, if you ask me.
• 55:26
  Unknown: Yeah. I am guilty of all those things, because I always want more, and more, and more, and I'm always
• 55:32
  competing. I I compete a lot, with myself and everyone else. I can't help it. you know Even when I run,
• 55:37
  and I I'm practising by myself, I'll see a runner and I will make sure– I have to– I'm competitive. It's just– I've been so
• 55:43
  competitive.
• 55:47
  Unknown: It is. It's just, again– I think that was on the challenge, when my sponsors were saying to me to stop– part of me was like,
• 55:51
  yeah–
• 55:56
  childhood Alex, child Alex being bullied– like, watch this. And that was what I needed to hear. In a run– like, I take parkruns very seriously. I want to race everyone. I think the important thing, though, is that the outcome is less than 1% of the journey, and as long as you enjoy the
• 55:56
  99% of the way there, it's okay to be competitive. I think some of us are competitive. But I think the difference now is I'm learning to be content with it– before, and sitting with it, and reflecting, before going after something else. I think that's the difference I've sort of noticed for myself.
• 56:26
  Unknown: I find myself avoiding um
• 56:29
  competitions if I can't win them or do extremely well, sometimes. So even with the parkruns– like, now,
• 56:33
  because I've had this injury, and I know I'm not as fast, there's n there's no way I'm going to go and
• 56:39
  sign up for a parkrun, because I'll be hurt if I don't do well. It sounds so weak, I know, I know. And
• 56:44
  we were talking about not doing that, so I'm very guilty of this. But yeah,
• 56:50
  I'm very performance-driven. Though– I mean, ultimately, I didn't do a parkrun last weekend. My partner did, because she wanted just to enjoy it. But I knew, because I was tired– I'd been away for a talk, I'd done a big session the day before– I knew
• 56:56
  Unknown: I wasn't going to hit the same time or improve it. Therefore I thought, well, actually, this is counterintuitive to the end goal.
• 57:07
  Unknown: Ah, okay. So it's not that bad, then.
• 57:09
  Unknown: Yeah. Because it was almost– it was counterintuitive to the– totally, it wasn't going to help me in
• 57:14
  my training. And you know I race to do well. I want to be as good as I can– that's the point
• 57:19
  of racing. People say, oh, we just enjoy it– well, enjoying it should be a a side product, but ultimately
• 57:24
  I want to do as b as best I can, because we have so much potential that we don't realise, and I want to
• 57:29
  find every drop of that. you know.
• 57:33
  Mm.
• 57:33
  But I'm not the difference now is that I'm not doing it for other people's approval any more. And I see
• 57:38
  that a lot. And this is why I'm now I'm barely on social media, for the same reason– because I find that
• 57:42
  is an incredible– You
• 57:44
  Unknown: stay on social media, and train train people on the running stuff, and improving their VO2 max.
• 57:48
  Unknown: Yeah, I'm I'm using it just for my coaching now, you know and using it to produce rather than consume.
• 57:53
  um you know But using it intentionally is the key. Using it intentionally, and building real connections
• 57:58
  Unknown: outside of that as well, I think, is really important.
• 58:02
  Yeah. Alex, it's been an honour. Thank you so much for sharing your mindset with us. It's definitely
• 58:10
  elite, and pro. So I'm very honoured to have you on. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, and I hope everyone's found something useful from it as well. So thank you for having me.