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Brown Shooting Fallout: Lies on X — Epstein Redactions · The Oath and The Office

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office Podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm John Fiegel, sang Happy Christmas and Happy Hanakhod, happy
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: everything to hold y'all. So great to have y'all with us.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And it's so great as always to welcome the star
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: of our show. Professor Corey Bretschneider is a constitutional law scholar,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: a political philosopher, the author of the Oath and the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Office and the Presidents and the People, and he was
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: kicked out of both Kiss and the Wu Tang Clan
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: for being too hardcore. The Professor focuses on what democracy
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: requires of those in power and what happens when leaders
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: actively violate those requirements. Corey, it's so good to see you.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Happy holidays to you and your family.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you, John.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Happy holidays to you and your family, and of course
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: to all the listeners. And what an intro, you know,
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: was an aspiring I loved old school rap as a
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: kid and still do. And so if only all that
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: was true, I mean, that's the best intro yet just
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: the end part, you know, far from it.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Well, Like I always like to say, hyperbole is worse
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: than Nazis. Okay, so we have a lot we have
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: to cover on today's episode special Holiday Malfeesi's edition between
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Corporate Power and the sixty Minutes Crisis. Of course, the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Epstein files an inherent contempt, which I thought was just
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: how my wife's family viewed me. And we have to
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: talk a bit about dishonesty and how used we've all
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: become to disinformation because this was the week where we
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: found out who was the perpetrator of the Brown University shooting.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Of course, we lost Ella Cook, nineteen years old, a
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: sophomore from Mountain Brook, Alabama. She was the vice president
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: of the Brown College Republicans and a musician. Muhammad Aziz
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Imerzakov was eighteen. He was a freshman from Virginia. He
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: was an Uzbek American, an aspiring neurosurgeon. Their deaths were
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: completely senseless, and their deaths were manipulated, as seems to
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: be the norm now by actors looking to place blame
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and stereotype large groups of people. Professor, let's start with
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: what we actually know. AUTH already say that the Brown
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: University shooter was Claudio Nevis Valente, Portuguese immigrant, acting alone,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: later found dead by suicide. No one else was involved.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: And as you know, while you and your fellow faculty
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: were grieving almost immediately. Right wing social media blamed a
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: transgender student and framed the murder as ideological. And I'd
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: like to begin, Professor by just first asking how you
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: and your colleagues are and what does this reflex tell
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: us about how disinformation is functioning as usual after mass
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: violence in the Trump era, Because I don't think anyone
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: was surprised that transgender students were blamed. I don't think
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: anyone was surprised that that was a lie.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in some ways it wasn't surprising, but
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: the whole tragedy, you know, when it had happens to
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: you and your community, it just.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Hits in a different way.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: And we talked about this last week as the investigation
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: was ongoing, and part of what was happening then was
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: really an immense fear on campus from students, from faculty,
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: And so there is some relief now that we know
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: who did this and we know that it was just
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: a hard to comprehend, clearly very disturbed individual who had
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: very little contact with the university ever. In fact, two
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: thousand and one was the last time that he was
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: involved with the university. He was a graduate student, in physics,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: and he's the same person, I should say too, who
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: murdered the MIT professor, who he knew from Portugal where
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: he was from Portuguese national And I suppose they were rivals,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: and one of the two thrived in physics, the MIT professor,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: and the other out of resentment, took his life. And
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: then the Brown story is very hard to comprehend. He
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: returned to the building and I guess the room that
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: he was often in where he thought. I think he
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: was murdering physics students. Now that of course is completely senseless,
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: but they weren't physics students. Even they were students in
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: a review session in economics and in the hallway. So
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: it is just an immense tragedy. There is some relief
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: that we caught this person. The two students who were murdered,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: horrific violence, horrific senseless young death. As all my colleagues
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: and as the entire Brown community, we grieve for them
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: and for their families and their friends.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Many of my colleagues knew them.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: And it's been an enormous tragedy. And then to go
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: to your question in the midst of all of this,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: to watch the internet blame transgender student who had absolutely
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: nothing to do with this because they claimed that they
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: had the same body type as the person that was
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: being looked for, but just jumping to conclusions as if
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: there was some conclusive evidence about this, and then another
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: right wing conspiracy that this was somehow an ideological attack
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: because the female student who was murdered was a member
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: of the Young Republicans, And you know, neither of those
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: are based in any fact, and yet the Internet went
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: crazy with them. So we were seeing, you know, the
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: connection between the horrible storm of misinformation of really anti
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: democratic politics, not anti democratic party, but against democracy that
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: we're seeing online. You know, the misinformation with it and
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: the kind of views that go with it, lack of
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: reason just turned into a weapon against the brown community
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: community I've been part of for twenty four years.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: So it was just tragedy upon tragedy.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: And now there is a new victim, who's this transgender
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: student who was targeted for absolutely no reason and without
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: any evidence.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I know that slowing down and establishing facts before assigning
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: blame is woke, but Professor, this podcast, I guess if
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: we have a theme, it's about something that's present in
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: your work. Democratic norms under pressure. I mean, how dangerous
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: do you find it when entire communities, say transgender people,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: say immigrants, say Muslims, become default suspects every time violence occurs.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Oh.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's the unfortunate reality of the world in
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: which we're in, that there is a narrative of, you know,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: who's to blame for all of our problems that's not
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: based in facts.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: We talked last week.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: About the real problem, which I think is gun regulation
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: and the lack of gun regulation in the United States.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: We compared New Zealand and Australia and the massive progress
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: that they made when it came to mass shootings and
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: mass killings compared to the United States.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: That's a real issue.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: But instead, because the conservatives of the Republican Party the
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: President don't want to do anything about that real issue,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: they've got to manufacture fake issues. So blaming transgender people
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: with again zero evidence, can't say that enough. Blaming non citizens,
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: permanent residents, green card holders, students from ad that's the
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: playbook that we're watching unfold. And you know, here's where
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: the personal tragedy intersects with the tragedy of our politics.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Corey, I mean, let me ask you, is this
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: less about truth and more about permission, like just the
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: permission structure to punish groups the right already hates that
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: already likes to target.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's they clearly have an agenda, which is the
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: shutdown of immigration into the United States. The belief in
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: this phrase, horrible phrase that I keep hearing of heritage
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: American referring essentially to white Americans who have been in
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: this country for generations as the true Americans. Nothing could
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: be further I should say, from the American idea, which
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: is essentially that America is based on principles of freedom,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: of a commitment to equality. Those are the ideals of
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: American democracy. And you know, this is a nation based
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: on ideas of freedom, not ideas of blood. And yet
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: this of heritage Americans is trying to change that. And
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: so any time that this can unleash itself with facts
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: in the news, it doesn't matter how tangential, they'll do it.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: And this anti immigrant narrative that's being attached to this
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: tragedy is probably inevitable, but horrific to see, especially when
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: it's about your own community.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Again, it's strange how Yeah, our friends on the right
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: always have to believe in what's that word again, supremacy
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to other roots right, Christian supremacists, American supremacists, and Jesus's
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: whole mission was about humility. It's a good thing they
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: don't read the Jesus parts. But you know, Donald Trump's
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: response was not targeted law enforcement. And this is why
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to open with this story today as
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: opposed to sexier stuff like Bari Weiss burning down CBS News.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: But Donald Trump is turning to collective punishment, suspending the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: diversity visa lottery, imposing more immigration restrictions that will affect
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: and hurt millions. No, this is what I wanted to
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: ask you about, because this is what the bad guys
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: always do throughout history. Professor, From a constitutional standpoint, how
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: does collective punishment of entire groups fit into authoritarian history?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Well, the American ideal is supposed to be that we
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: don't blame individuals for the supposed characteristics of other individuals.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: And the Biblical ideal too.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And what we're.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Seeing, I think increasingly, is not only the stereotyping and
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: grouping of people, but the desire to punish certain individuals
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: as responsible for the ls of society. It is the
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: worst example of prejudice and stereotyping coming together to fail
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: to deal with our real problems. And you know, I
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: can't help but think about this documentary. There's an amazing
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: thinker about the history of Nazi Germany named Professor Hett
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: and I'm.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Going to have him.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: We're going to have him on the podcast in the
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: new year. And if you watch on Netflix, the documentary
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: based largely on his work Hitler and the Nazis. Things
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: don't start off with the Holocaust that comes later in
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: the war. What starts off is this idea of collective punishment,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: of the punishment of the Germans for the Reichstag fire,
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: which by the way, might have been set by Hitler himself,
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: but the idea that you'll blame collectively an entire group
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: for an individual action that the group, of course can't
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: be responsible for. Now, we're not seeing the Holocaust or
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: any of the cars that we saw later in Germany.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: But what we are seeing are the foundations for that
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: way of thinking, blaming groups, for instance, for the actions
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: of individuals. This Portuguese professor was in a unique situation.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: He was clearly disturbed person.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: He had been a graduate student for just a few months,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: evidently a promising one who it didn't work out for.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: That's not an example of somebody that you can then
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: generalize into Green card holders or permanent residents generally. And
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: the idea that they're trying to do that and really
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: to blame people have absolutely nothing to do with this
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: tragedy is horrible. And yet that's what they're trying to
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: do with new immigration restrictions.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: And historically collective punishment. I mean, you said they've used
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: it against Jews, They've used it against indigenous folks, They've
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: used it against political dissidence, against enslaved Africans. We've seen
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: it in our lifetimes used against Muslims in many ugly
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: ways in this country. I mean, Trump's logic seems to
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: collapse under the slightest bit of scrutiny. Professor Lee Harvey
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Oswald was American, Timothy McVeigh was American. No one said, hey,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: we should go after you know, white veterans, or go
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: after the areas they come from. Selective punishment seems to
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: be one of the clearest tells of radicalized authoritarianism. Is
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: that fair to say?
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right, and if you think of
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: the opposite of collective punishment, it's the entitlement in our Constitution,
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: the Fifth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment to do process.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: That's a right of individuals to be accused of crimes,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: to face legal proceedings, to know what the charges are
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: against them, to face courts of law on an individual
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: not a collective basis. There is no consistent and group
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: punishment that's consistent with the due process clauses of our Constitution.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: And yet increasingly, you know, you're seeing the eroding of
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: those values in favor of values of collective punishment. You
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: don't have to look very far. And I know we'll
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: talk about sixty minutes later, which is directly on point,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: but to the handling of the supposed enem nation of Venezuela,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: the handling of individuals who are often fleeing by the
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: way the dictatorship in Venezuela. Those people were denied due
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: process by this administration under the claim that the seventeen
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: ninety eight Alien Enemies Act revokes due process, even though
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: the Constitution says the opposite. That's what this administration is saying.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: That fits into the idea of group punishment. The punishment
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: of an enemy nation, regardless of whether any individual, and
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: many of those who were shipped in particular to the
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Gulag and Al Salvador that we're going to talk about,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: were not guilty of any crime. And in fact, the
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: more investigation, including the sixty minutes show shows that a
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: huge u percentage of those who were removed committed no
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: violent crime or no crime at all.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: And let me point out study after a study after
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a study shows that immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: far less likely to commit violent crime than native born Americans.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to repeat that, Corey, so people can
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: hear it in the back. Illegal immigrants and legal immigrants
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: both commit crimes at lower rates than natural born American citizens.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: The reason fear of deportation, which kind of makes me
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: think we could, you know, put some fear into the
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: hearts of homegrown criminals if we began shipping them off
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: like Donald Trump does all over the place, But he
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to do that to Americans. And we see
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: authoritarian movements persist in pushing these narratives that directly contradict
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: empirical reality because it serves them politically. It's not helping
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the economy. I mean Trump's own family emigrated from Europe, Professor,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: So let me just put a button on this by
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: asking you, I mean, how central is racial hierarchy rather
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: than law, or to the way this administration is defining
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: deserving immigrants versus dangerous immigrants.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: They really are trying to rewrite the idea of America,
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: based on an idea of freedom, into one that looks
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: like it's based in blood and heritage. Now, when you
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: look at the actual United States, including many of the
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: members of this administration, including JD. Vance, you know, what
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: are you talking about their families like my family don't
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: fit some story that that you know, the eighteenth century
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: is the origin of that of their families. Stephen Miller
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: certainly does not have anything like that story. His story
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: of his family is much more like mine, as his
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: uncle has reminded us in a kind of heroic way.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And yet they keep having this fantasy that there's sort
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: of this blood that goes back to the founding of America.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Steve Bannon also's family doesn't fit that profile. And you know,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I guess they're doing it either out of some mix
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: of fantasy or of course political expediency, because othering people
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: making this tapping into the unfortunate narrative that there is
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: in the United States. The United States has two realities.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: One is the aspirational one that I keep talking about.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: America is an idea of freedom. And the other is,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: of course, the deep history of racism and nativism that
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: runs throughout the United States. And that kind of awful
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: counter narrative is one that they're tapping into. And that
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: isn't what America is supposed to be, but it's what
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: they're trying to turn it into.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Well, let's take a very quick break, because when we
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: come back, I want to bring us to another moment
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: where law and power and selective transparency collide, and that
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: would be the Epstein Files and everybody's favorite new words
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: to learn for the Christmas season, inherent contempt. We'll get
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: to CBS as well. In just a bit. We'll be
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: right back. This is the Oath in the Office.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Hey all playing Curshoner here.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Friends, I hope you'll join me on my audio podcast,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: Justice Matters. We talk about not only the legal issues
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: of the day, but we also talk about the need
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  Speaker 4: to reform ethics in our government. Here's one example. The
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: Oath of office, you know the one I do solemnly
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: foreign and domestic. Let's add twenty two words to that
• 16:16
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  Speaker 4: crime and or corruption by government officials and employees of
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• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the oath in the office. I'm John Fiegel, saying, well, professor,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: you know what I can say about Jeffrey Epstein is
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I like it when dead rapists destroy the careers of
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: living rapists. So I plan on enjoying every step of
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: this once the files are finally released, as was required
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: by law. Last Friday, Congress voted to release the Epstein files,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: and every single page of grand jury testimony one hundred
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and nineteen pages was redacted. I mean, just stunning, page
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: after page. I haven't seen that many blackouts since my
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: three way with Courtney Love and Liza Minelli. So in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: constitutional terms, Corey, we expected this, and there's going to
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: be a lot going back and forth, a lot of
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: protest about it. I think that by continuing what could
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: be the greatest cover up in our lifetimes in presidential history,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it's just creating a festering wound in this White House
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: that will continue to make it bleed all over the midterms.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: But in constitutional terms, I've wanted to ask you this
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: since I tried to read the report, Corey, when does
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: redaction stop being legitimate privacy protection and turn into obstruction?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Where is the line?
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: A great series of questions, the stuff about lives in and Elli,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure we're the only constitutional law podcast that
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: has a lead in like that.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to keep on pushing the limits of your tenures, sir.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to keep on seeing how far I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: can take you into dangerous So thank you for that.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: So going to the reaction part of the question, you know, look,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: there is a purpose, of course of redaction, and they're
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: not doing it. It's to protect the privacy of victims.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: And there was one victim that cnnas reported today who
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: hasn't been identified until now, and the files are releasing
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: her name even though she's requested and had been given anonymity.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: So that's what reaction is supposed to be about now
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: is reaction is supposed to protect the person who by.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: The way the law not by the way.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: That's the main point, that there's a law that was
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: past demanding the release. The administration is and doing this
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: out of the kindness of their own heart.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: The whole purpose of it.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: The point of the legislation was to find out more
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: about Epstein and his crimes. But equally important, maybe more important,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: is whether or not the President was complicit or involved
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: in those crimes.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: That's the reason this legislation was passed. So the fact that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: They're redacting so much of the material that would implicate Trump,
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: and they release some more today and there is information
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: including a letter from Epstein talking about the president and
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: his similar attraction to underage girls and potentially implicating him
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: in the crimes that are associated with Epstein.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: That's the latest. But the idea that we'd be redacting.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: The Department of Justice is trying to walk the line here,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: which is to release as little as possible but not
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: find themselves in violation of the law.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And that's where we are now.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: The good news, just to get to the headline here,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: is that there is legislation here that demanded this release,
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: and so they can go to court, and in fact,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Charles Schumer, leading the Senate Minority bringing case, and Thomas
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Massey and others in the House are suing in court
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: to get the full files released in a way that
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: is not hiding what actually happened.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: That's right. Then again, like Kilmar Abrigo Garcia, Pam Bondi's
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: doj in the White House had to be forced into
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: doing this. It took a nine to nothing Supreme Court
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: last summer to force Pam Bondi to comply with the law,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and now it took an Act of Congress passing a law,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and Trump is still not complying. Pam Bondi is still
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: not complying. And as the non academic on the show
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: who has no credibility to project, let me remind you
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: at the very best case scenario, friends and neighbors, Donald
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Trump knew about the abuse of children for years and
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: didn't pick up the phone to call the cops. Okay,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: that's best case. Best case, magafins who are listening to
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: this to get angry and get your heart rate up,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: because that counts cardio. Best case, donald Trump knew and
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: did nothing, but Corey the files that mentioned the president
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: were briefly posted then quietly removed the same night. From
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: a rule of law perspective, how alarming is that sequence,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: or should I say, how comical? I can't decide whether
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: it's bitterly hilarious or deeply scary.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think the million dollar question is
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: what does the law say? And the law's purpose, as
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: they said, was to demand release of the documents that
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: potentially implicate the president. And what they are doing clearly
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: is editing these files, redacting not with an interest of
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: protecting victims, but with the interest of doing the opposite
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: of what the law requires of protecting the president. You
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: mentioned the idea of inherent contempt. One real question now
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: is what are we going to do, we the people
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: to try to demand that the law is followed and
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: that the files are released. And Thomas Massey and others
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: have talked about this inherent contempt power. I think that
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: really is a red herring that the inherent contempt power,
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: which goes back hasn't been used by Congress since the
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: nineteen thirties. Talks about the idea that violating the will
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: of Congress can be a crime, and there actually was
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: at one point a jail in Congress that could be
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: used for this purpose.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I think they still have the jail, but it has
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: all of this.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Sergeant of Arms can lock them up if he was too.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: We've learned that many times.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but it hasn't happened since the nineteen thirties and
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I don't think it will. But the good news is
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: there is this legislation and so going to court and
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: getting court orders that demand the release. Now, of course
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: the administration could refuse to follow a court order, as
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: it did in the Obrego Garcia case, but that would
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: trigger not inherent contempt, but the kind of normal process
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: of criminal and civil contempt that would happen in the courts.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: And that there is no kind of hard question about.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: It's used all the time. So yes, Pam Bondi and
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: refusing to release these documents, if she really goes to
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: the point of refusing the a court order to release them,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: might find herself in contempt.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: So now we're hearing really interesting bipartisan support, including you
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: mentioned Thomas Massey for inherent contempt charges against future disbarn
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Attorney General Van Bondi. Corey, can you please explain what
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: inherent contempt is I think we're going to need to
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: learn a lot about this in the next few weeks. Yeah,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and why does this exist as sort of a constitutional backstop?
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Well, the origin story is, you know that Congress really
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: needs a way of protecting itself, and so if the
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: branch is being attacked, and I think the idea too,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: was that rather than relying on another branch, the legal process,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: that should have its own powers to enforce say, subpoenas
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: to testify or you know, defiance perjury for instance, at
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: congressional hearing. Anyway, the theory is, and again it hasn't
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: been used since the nineteen thirties, that Congress has its
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: own power. Inherent in Congress's power, that's the inherent part
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: to defend itself. But I just think, you know, as
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: much as the media is covering this, Thomas Massey likes
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: this idea. It does stand for a nice symbol of
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Congress trying to reassert itself. We're not going to return
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: to the nineteen thirties. We're not going to return to
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: this kind of anachronistic power. But there are other ways
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: to do it and Congress's normal legislation, and just to
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: lay this out, even more. You know, Congress passed the law,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: passed both houses, and the President signed it. The President
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: signed the law demanding the release of the Epstein files
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: with the thought that, of course, will tell you his
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: attorney general to not really do it. But that's not
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: how legislation works. If there's a law in the books,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: no one is above it. Everyone has to follow it.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: And that's why these court cases are the place to watch.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't watch this sideshow of inherent contempt. I think
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: that's not what's a red herring. It's not really going
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: to work. But this legislation could work, These lawsuits could work,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: and I think actually will work. And that's why I'm
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: optimistic we'll eventually see these files unredacted.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Well, Rokana says fines could reach up to twenty five
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars per day until there's compliance. What do you
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: make of that. Is that Congress in a last ditch
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: effort to prove they still have teeth or is that
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Congress actually reclaiming authority.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: I'm not seeing that again, the fines, I think all
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: of this are interesting way of thinking about it, But
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: what's really going to do the work is when there's
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: a court order from one of these two lawsuits that
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: says release the files. And now the Department of Justice
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: is going to hear from its lawyers Bam Bondi despite
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: what she heard the last time. You can't defy a
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: court even if you don't like the order. That's the
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: way American law works. You're not above the district court.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Now they are going to use a lot of rhetoric
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: and have that says, well, courts can't tell the president
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: what to do, but they see what they're facing in
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: the case of Judge Boseburg and the a Brego Garcia case,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: which is potentially that some of.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Them might go to prison.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Now, are they going to be charged right now that
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: we had a listener question about this.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: No, but it might be that.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: They're charged after this administration, or if you get a
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: very aggressive judge like Judge Boseburg, that he will insist
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: on moving forward with an investigation. And so you know
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: there's a danger in defying a court order. I don't
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: think they're going to be willing to do it again,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: although they did do it in the case of Abrego Garcia,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: just to protect this president.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, the president is not in fact being investigated
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: for child molestation. There is no ongoing investigation. This is
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: just evidence in the trial of the dead guy that
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the President promised to release, campaigned on releasing, and once
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: achieving power, has tried rather publicly to distance himself from
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: and in the most clumsy and stupid of ways, try
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: to cover it up. I mean, the second batch had
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: more information on Trump. It's all damning, and it just
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: seems Corey like, the longer they go on with this,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: the more it's going to hurt them. Even Bill Clinton's
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: former press secretary is now demanding full disclosure and the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Clinton statement Warren Selective releases create insinuation without accountability. I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: got to say, it feels like the nineties watching Bill
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Clinton finally get in front of a scandal with his
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: name on it again. But I mean, can you explain
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: why selective transparency is almost always more corrosive than just
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: outright secrecy.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: Well, I think in this case especially, there was transparency
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: of a specific kind that was demanded, and that's the
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: demand that we release information about the President's lack thereof
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: or involvement with Epstein. That's the whole purpose of the law.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: So it's not just that they're being inconsistent in targeting
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: Bill Clinton, which they are doing. Noticed that a lot
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: of the photos of him have been released, but not
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: the photos of Trump. It's not just a question of inconsistency.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: It's that the target of the law was not Bill Clinton, who,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: after all, hasn't been involved in politics, hasn't been president
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: in quite some time. The purpose of the law was
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: the release to find out, you know, what was the
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: president's involvement or lack thereof. So it's not just inconsistency,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: it's that they really are defying the purpose of the law.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: That's how I'd put it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Right on.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Well, let's move it then to the story on everyone's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: lips as well. This fully vetted, legally cleared sixty minutes
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: investigation into the brutal El salvn Or prison where people
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: have been renditioned to was spiked, not allegedly for political reasons,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: deeply transparently obviously for political reasons. I mean, this is
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the legacy of Barie Weiss. This is what she promised.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, we used to watch sixty minutes to see
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the powerful held accountable, and now it seems like that tick, tick,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: tick is the sound of CBS counting down to its
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: own funeral with these fascists and shills and billionaires who
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: confused journalism with obedience to Donald Trump. I mean, they
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: didn't just spike the story, Cory. They spiked the credibility
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: of CBS News, the legacy. They spiked Edward R. Murrow's grave.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: This again was approved by standards and practices promoted on
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: social media. The story was screened five times, but Bari Weiss,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: whose newsroom experience is right wing op eds, decided the
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: story needed more context, like maybe a cameo from Stephen Miller. So,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot to unpack here, and it's
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: very depressing from a democratic theory standpoint. What happens when
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: journalism begins deferring to government silence Because the structure of
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: this was really quite diabolical. The White House gave no comment,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and so Barry Weiss's decree was, well, we can't do
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: this without commentary from the White House. So essentially the
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: government is now allowed to censor and stop investigations.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, you know what a horrible moment. I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: should say too that I had an opportunity to watch
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: the bootleg version, as many of our listeners have.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: It's available online.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Canadian television did post it at some point or allow
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: it to be viewed.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: It was on Canada, Canadian television on and turns out
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: those people are able to record it and share it with.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Us, right and somebody clearly linked it from CBS, So
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: I can say the story is great and important. It
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: shows what was happening in this prison in Al Salvador,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: that you have prison guards bragging about the fact that
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: they leave the lights on for twenty four hours, that
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: there were stress positions used to essentially torture individuals, that
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: the isolation rooms are beyond cruel. They were able to
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: get all this information partly by looking at footage filmed
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: by independent podcasters and media figures and content makers, partly
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: through investigations that were conducted by a team out of Berkeley, California.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: And it verifies our worst fears and shows the details
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: of what was going on there. Now, why did they
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: spike it Because they don't want us to know the
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: truth because Barry Wise is clearly complicit in Trump's agenda,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: and they're unwilling to let us know the truth. Now,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: she's not going to say that, She's going to say
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: something else, and what she's been saying is Oh, she
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: wants some more balanced version.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: We'll see it eventually.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: I guess she wants Stephen Miller to be able to
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: edit it so that it makes him look good.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, that's not journalism. That's something else.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: And it is of course not censorship in the sense
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: of putting people in prison in the way of the
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: Sedition Act. But it is a form of corporate censorship
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: that in some ways is more pernicious.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, I think I'd rather be
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: married to Stephen Miller than be the person in charge
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: of making him look good. I mean, I mean, you know,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: he's okay after he goes out at night to feed.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: But generally, so this is the rule now, right. If
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the White House refuses to comment, the story dies, which
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: means the White House gets a kill switch over journalism.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you read the memo that Sharon
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: el Fonsi, the producer, wrote to the staff, but she warned,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: and it's really well written that if government refusal becomes
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: a veto, then journalism is just stenography for the state.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Would you say, professor, that's an accurate description of the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: battle that's happening. More broadly, in American media right now,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: stepping over the grave of the Stephen Colbert Show to
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: ask this question.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it's a brilliant way to put it.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: And I will say it's a form of censorship that
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I find particularly difficult to deal with because, you know,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: if there was a law passed, the Sedition Act, or
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: even in the case of Trump prosecuting his opponents, there's
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: a legal process that we could clearly use to stop it.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: And the First Amendment says that Congress shall make no
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: law bridging the freedom of speech, and so if Congress
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: were to do that, or the President were to do that,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Congress there is a stand in for government. That's what
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: the First Amendment was meant to stop the sedition of
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: the British king or British monarchs who put their opponents
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: in prison. And although we went through a period of
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: time the Sedition Act in which that was done by
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: John Adams, as you know from the presidents and the people,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: that was stopped not in court but by citizens over
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: time refusing to accept that.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Now here's the problem.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: What if the censorship is coming through influence on corporate media,
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: on CBS in this case, what's the legislation. What's the
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: court process for stopping that? There isn't one. It isn't
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: clear that we can use the legal process. In fact,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: I think it would be very difficult to do that.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: In fact, CBS, with its on First Amendment lawyers will say, well,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: we have the right to spike a story that we
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: don't like, we have the right to endorse the president.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: We have the right to do what we like.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: And so it still is censorship. It still is dangerous
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: for democracy. Without this information about the cruelty that's being
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: done in this gulag, this prison and al salvad or
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: this deprivle, intentional deprivation of due process, we can't know
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: what's being done in our name. And yet because it's
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: being done in this way through pressuring and putting somebody
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: in charge of CBS who is sympathetic to the President's agenda,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: it's very hard to know how to stop them.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: I mean this is as his parent company settled the
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: lawsuit with Trump that was complete rubbish over sixty minutes,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: having their own editing of a Kamala Harris interview, they
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: eliminated DEI policies, got Colbert fired appointed the right wing
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of Budsmen installed Barry Weiss as editor in chief despite
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: no newsroom experience. To me, this is what establishment controlled
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: of media looks like. Not jack boots, not book burnings,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: just polite emails, spike stories. And let's get to what
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: is really going on here, because it's what was at
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: play with Colbert just sours. After the story was killed,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Paramount magically sweetened their bid to buy Warner Brothers Discovery.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Larry Ellison is personally guaranteeing forty billion, So that's it, right,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: It's this journalism committing ritual suicide at the exact moment
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the company really needs Donald Trump's blessing for a merger
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: so billionaires can get more billions. This is a tribute offering.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Ellison is courting Trump support for a major corporate acquisition. Professor,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: when we had decisions align with political interests of owners.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: How close are we to a soft authoritarian press system.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it's state run media, but
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: it seems to be state run media via bribe.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Well, in some ways I think it's worse than state
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: run media because if you were getting you know, punishment
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: of media organizations who failed to comply with the administration,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: as I said, I know how to handle that. There's
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: a First Amendment right to freedom of speech. There's a
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: related right to the freedom of press. And when government
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: is forcing the hand of media, you know that's not allowed.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I can't do that.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: But now, what do you do when media is complicit?
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: When there's an incentive system, and in particular are the
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: mergers of and acquisitions incentive to go along with what
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: the administration is done, not because you're afraid of the stick,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: but because you want the carot of the approval of deals.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: That's much harder.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's not censorship any the less, it's not
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: any less authoritarian, although you know, we might call it
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: soft authoritarianism to just symbolize the idea that is not
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: doing in this most straightforward way. But in some ways
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: the less straightforward way is more dangerous. Let me say
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: just an analogy so you see that it's not just
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: in the media landscape. One of the real puzzles was
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: why are so many of these law firms going along
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: with Trump when it comes to his authoritarian agenda. Remember
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: that moment where some of the firms essentially agreed not
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: to take a stand against Trump or even to provide
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: pro bono services for his hours. Some of the most
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: noted firms, and we covered this when it happened. Well,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: it turns out a lot of those same firms a
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: lot of their businesses through the administrative approval process of
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: mergers and acquisitions. That's where the bottom line comes from.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: So you know this puzzle of why so many people
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: sixty minutes, many of these huge law firms, storied firms
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: are going along with the authoritarian agenda. It's because they
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: want the reward system that comes from from this administration.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Northwestern I'm hearing too University has made a deal with
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: the Trump administration is going on, and so they're able
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: to use incentives. Don't forget a few weeks ago Brown
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: rejected the so called compact that would have given us
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: advantages in grants.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: These are all their way.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Of doing things that they've realized that using the power
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: the incentives of the federal government might be the quickest
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: road to authoritarianism. And that word that I keep using
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: self coup. It can happen in a variety of ways.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: It can happen through the stealing of the power of
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: the purse, through the shutdown of civil servants and firing
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: of them, and it also can happen.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: You're seeing this year through the use of.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Incentives and approval of mergers, and what a frightening moment
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, in her memo, Sharon Alfonsi referenced the Jeffrey
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Wygan scandal, which some may remember the whistleblower for the
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: tobacco industry played by Russell Crowe in the Michael Mann
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: film The Insider, which I'm talking about, yeah, because I
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: love al Pacino.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Hello, I'm lowel bergman of CBS News.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: But it's a great film and it brought back for
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: me why sixty Minutes mattered and how sixty Minutes earned
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: their credibility. I mean, I'm convinced this is why John
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Dickerson has just quit being the anchor over there.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Edward R.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Murrow confronted McCarthy and Mike Wallace confronted Nixon, and today
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: CBS is confronting its own reporters.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Corey.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know, we think about the great figures
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: in journalism who stood up to power in the name
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of democracy. For you, who's doing that now? Who's doing
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I think that CBS is that sixty Minutes is trying to.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: Do I think, you know, the unfortunately Walter Cronkite, or
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: that moment in which Murrow stood up to the red
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: scare to Joseph McCarthy, that might not be where we
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: see the resistance coming from. And there's pressure certainly now
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: on all the networks on CNN, which I appear on regularly,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: but the reality is they are also facing huge pressure.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: MS now of course has been spun off from NBC.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: So far, so good.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: But you know, there's a sense in which these very
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: few outlets that are speaking out against Trump are vulnerable,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: especially the more powerful and wealthy they are. But I
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: think one of the going back to the issue of
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: disinformation and diffusion of information, that as much as that's
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: a danger of what podcasts of independent shows and independent
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: media popping up, it also is a resource. And so
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons why I wanted to start this
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: show with you and have been so glad to do
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: it every week is because nobody owns this except for us,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: and we can say what we.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Want, and that is a great privilege.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: We're not reporting to any corporate masters, and so we
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: can tell the truth.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: And there are others out there like this podcast.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: We're not as big, of course as MS now or
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Fox News. But we can tell the truth and that's
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: what I want to keep doing. And that's the entire
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: reason for doing that. And if you look throughout history,
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: there have been small media organizations, small newspapers that spoke
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: out at different moments in time that made a difference.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Frederick Douglas's Paper or The North Star, his two publications influenced,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: to my mind, abolition more and especially the pro constitution
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: wing of abolition, more than anyone else. And yet when
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: I looked at his numbers in the nineteenth century, we're
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: talking in the thousands. So you know, it is possible
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: that independent media might play a role in holding this
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: president to account.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean that's what we're doing, and
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that's what we do a serious XM progress, you know,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: And I think that my hope is that more Democrats
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: in the party will realize that the future is with
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: independent media and they'll be reaching a lot of people.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: That's no slam on corporate media. I just think a
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: healthy diet. I mean, I watch Fox too. You try
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: to consume as much as you can. I do take
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of comfort, Professor from a theme that I
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: discussed with you quite frequently. That America is saving grace
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: in the twenty first century has been that our fascists
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: have been so damn dumb. The stupid is always worse
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: than the sinister. I call them dim, shady Bush and
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Shadey and this guy as well, because think about how
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: stupid they are by by actually getting together and trying
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: to cover up this story. And by the way, it's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: a terrific segment about the atrocious abuses committed in our
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: name at the Sel Salvador in prison, the lawlessness and
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: cruelty and evil of this administration and Corey, so many
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: more people are going to see it now because they
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: tried to cover it up. This is the Striisan effect.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And now millions of people who wouldn't have even watched
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: sixty minutes on Sunday night are looking this clip up
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: and seeing it and getting an even greater education as
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: to the unholy things this government has done. And I
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: just can't praise the producers of the actual segment enough.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: I think that's such a great point that you know,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: sixty minutes, of course has a large audience, but it's
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: habitual and it's limited, and so much of the modern
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: audience YouTube more than. My understanding is that if you
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: combine all the television stations out there on.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Cable, basically YouTube is still bigger.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: And so it's a massive thing that's happening online. And
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: this is starting to spread like wildfire on line. And
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: so maybe that's a good thing that they tried to
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: spike it because it's getting Americans to say, hey, what
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: are they trying to hide? And that's a theme that
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: also fits with our other story. I mean, what is
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: in these Epstein files that they are so intent to
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: defy the law to keep us from seeing it? Well,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: it likely implicates the president. That's what we're going to
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: find out about. So, you know, the more they use
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: their authoritarian repression, the history, as you well pointed out,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: shows that Americans start to get suspicious of suppression of
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: information they want it. And as much as we might
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: have an authoritarian moment in the success of the suppression
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: of corporate media, the Colbert situation, the attempt to spike
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: this story, the result in the long run might be
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: a demand for information and a rebellion against this attempted coup.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Correct. And I have to just close this out by
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: saying I don't blame Barry Weiss. She was not hired
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: to commit journalism. She was hired to censor journalism at
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the pleasure of men in power. She's just doing the
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: job she was to do. Okay, let's take a very
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: quick break back in just a moment with some more
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I have some end of the year questions for you, Professor.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: This is the Oath in the Office.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: These are difficult times and if you believe in justice,
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: progress and democracy, the news you read and listen to
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: can be pretty depressing. And that's why there's a new
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: podcast called Good News for Lefties and America get this
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: every day. It features positive stories for progressive listeners because
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: no matter how disturbing or horrific or soul crushing the
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: headlines might be, there's still always hope that we can
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: build on for a better tomorrow. We've seen it happen before.
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: Good News for Lefties in America listen on this platform
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: at good News for Lefties dot com or wherever fine
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: podcasts are heard.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Welcome back one more time to the Oath and the
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Office podcast. I am John Fiegel sang along with Professor
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Corey Bretschneider and by the way, in the words of
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: FBI director Cash parttel Smash that like button bra.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: You know that we're in the same profession as Don
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Bongino and Cash.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Well we are again. Dan Bongino's back on our side
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: of the Red Rover Dubai. Corey. Somewhere in Hell, Jay
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover is wearing a dress and he's furious what
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Cash Mattel has done to his beloved bureau. But I
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: do want to thank everyone for making our first year
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: on the podcast so wonderful and special and so surprisingly popular. Corey,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: what are we looking at the top five again this
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: week in political podcasts More?
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: We are in the Apple Government section number three, and
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: I'll say too, you know, if you haven't subscribed, certainly
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: do it. And it's been our subscribers that are driving
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: this amazing success and amazing growth. Really every month we're
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: seeing massive growth, people telling friends, sending it to one
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: or two people.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: That makes a huge difference.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: But just to clarify what we're doing, you know, when
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: we have guests, like amazing guests like Senator white House,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: that's terrific, But the people still tune in John, when
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: it's just the two of us going in depth on
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: these stories, takeing them seriously doing commentary that goes beyond
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: service analysis. And so last week we didn't have a guest.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: We don't have a guest this week, and last week
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: we were number three.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually I actually told everyone on Sirious XM
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift was going to join us. So that's
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: on me. Thankful for the numbers.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: By the way, guys, thank you so much.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you. But please everyone do subscribe and give
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: us reviews and tell your friends and share our humble
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: musings on your social media walls. Corey, I mean, it's
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: been quite a ride. We're now still in the first
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: year of come over Caligula's second term. From your perspective,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: what constitutional guardrails have definitely been breached and are in
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: the rear view mirror.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: Well, I do think there's a huge difference, unfortunately, between
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: Trump one point zero and this current Trump two point zero.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: And the difference is that, you know, I had this
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: piece when the two of us met when Trump was
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: running called Trump versus the Constitution, and what I thought
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: would happen in the first term is as he would
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: propose a shutdown of Muslim immigration into the country, his
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: proposed Muslim ban and the Supreme Court would teach him
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: lesson each time and say, no, you can't do that,
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: you can't do that now. In the first term, a
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: lot of that did come to pass. The Court stopped
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: a lot of what he was trying to do. Lower
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: courts certainly did even if the Supreme Court eventually approved it.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: We had two impeachments that were really a moment where
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: although he wasn't removed, he was impeached, voted majority impeachment
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: charges in the House of Representatives twice in January sixth,
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: and the tempted quid pro quo to get information on
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: his opponent, Joe Biden, in return for giving benefits to
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: the Ukrainian president Zelenski, who people hadn't heard about. But
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: you know, so that was working in many ways the
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: constitutional system and Trump one point zero. This is very different.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: It's much more scary. He's figured out how to hire
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: and fire, put loyalists over people who care about the law,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: and that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Creates a precarious situation.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: And when you compound that with the fact that the
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly handed over
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: power to this person, including most dangerously in the immunity case,
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: saying that he can't be prosecuted while president or even
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: as a former president for his official duties, with possibly
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: some exceptions. That's a scary moment for democracy. So a
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: lot of what I'm hearing from listeners, from friends, for instances,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: you know, this is a scary time, but it's you know,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: there's a solidarity in going through it with the two
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: of us and hearing the truth and also hearing about
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: the hopefulness. But that's my bottom line. This has been
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: a scary nine months, this attempted self coup. It feels
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: and is very different than what we saw in the
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: first term, and the court is partly to blame.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I hate to tell you, Professor, ITRI's eleven months. Maybe
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: you're having more fun than me, but it's just eleven months.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: We never forget. We inaugurate the racist on MLK Day.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: I live for irony in this world, Corey. We've talked
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: about this on this pod. Authoritarianism doesn't succeed by itself.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: It requires enablers, Professor, to your view, who have been
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: the most consequential enablers this year? Is it the courts,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: the corporations, the media, the Congress.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Well, I'll certainly start with the Supreme Court of the
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: United States. And while it's not the worst Supreme Court
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: in history, not the worst Chief Justice.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: I'd say that's Justice Tawani of Guys.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I set you an article.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Saying the opposite.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, know that the dread Scott decision denying
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: all rights to all black Americans. I'm going to put
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: that to the thing that helped to ignite the Civil War.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: I'll put that worse. But this is frightening, you know.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: And they I'll put them still as number one in
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: the complicity question that handing over that power. And a
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: close second is Congress. You know, the Congress should be
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: fighting back. We should see the framers. Imagine that when
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: it came to assaults on the Constitution, we wouldn't see
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: the kind of partisanship that we're seeing. And yet we
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: are far from there even being a possibility of impeachment.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: We won't even though they's so deserved. We won't see
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: that until Congress switches parties, and at least the House
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: of Representatives that might happen. So Congress, and then you know,
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: the civil servants, the people who are supposed to be
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: civil servants, who had been replaced with the worst loyalists.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: The Pam bondis the cash betels who care not about
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: the obligation to law, but the.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Loyalty to the president. Put them right in there too.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: You know, in some ways it's more expected that they'd
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: behave that way than the supposed independent to other branches.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: But they have really enabled.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: They're too dumb. I think they're too dumb to know
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: they don't have immunity, professor. I mean, Donald Trump doesn't
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: have to worry about getting disbarred after he leaves this administration.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: But there's some other folks that I really can't wait
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: to see them get their moment. I mean absolutely, we've
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: seen that. This is for the first time in our history,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: a president who is in no way constrained by law.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, he literally gets felony convictions and he still
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: walks away. This is someone testing how much law can
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: be ignored before it breaks and then stepping over the pieces.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: I do want to ask you, where have you seen
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: the most meaningful resistance. We've talked about a few people
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: in media and politics, but I mean in the legal world,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: in the institutional world, in the civic world. Who are
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: you looking to in twenty twenty six, who are you
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: expecting to give us all hope?
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, it's not clear who the
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: leaders in the resistance will be, but there have been moments,
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: certainly in which I've felt heartened at the resistance. And
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: so when you think about the No King's Rally, with
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: that simple slogan no Kings, the resistance to authoritarianism, this
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: want to be dictatorship, it sums up what we're facing.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: And we had millions of people in the streets throughout
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: the United States. I went out It's on our YouTube
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: channel and speaking to people. I was inspired by that
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: those who are fighting back in court really are making
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: a difference. We've profiled some of our best episodes. I
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: think I'm hearing from listeners. A lot of people know
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: what the ACL does their work, but now a lot
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: more people know because they listened to Mike Zaymore. They
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: heard about the details that they're going out and finding
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: these cases. Somebody had to find Abrego Garcia and defend
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: him in court to see that this was something that
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: needed a national spotlight to see. In the Khalil case,
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: Columbia University student who was facing deportation and still is
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: for nothing more than his beliefs, the idea that you
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: don't have a First Amendment right to free speech if
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: you're not a citizen, even though it doesn't say that.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: There were litigant groups that fought back, and of course
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: in the tariff case which I got involved with recently,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Neil Katial, Paul Wilson and his team at Democracy Forward,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: you know, working hand in hand with these groups was
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: really you know, their solidarity in that too, in doing
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: the podcast, but and also in seeing those who are
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: doing the really difficult work of litigation trying to save
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: our constitution. Now, what's going to happen in that case,
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure, as you know, I'm skeptical of the
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court. But we've got to fight on all fronts,
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: the citizen front, the legal front, of course, the political
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: front as the elections come up. And I was inspired
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: by Sheldon Whitehouse, who spoke with us at length and
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: might be the chair of the Judiciary Committe. If you
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: haven't heard that, listeners, go back and listen to Sheldon
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: white House, and you know hear his power and his
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: strength in recognizing that this president doesn't get to determine
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: what this constitution is. And we'll have more guests like that,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: legal journalists like Dalia Lithwick, who every week are writing
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: about this assault on democracy, on covering what's happening. They
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: all inspire me. And I'll add not to mention this
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: amazing segment by sixty Minutes, which we did get to
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: see despite the fact that their corporate masters were trying
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: to destroy it.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Not only was Senator Sheldon white House brilliant on our show,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: that was, of course, Professor, the first time I've ever
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: in my career done in a zoom interview from the
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: front seat of a rental car parked in La somewhere
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: they're any newit and trying to convince the United States
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Senator I was really in a real room with my
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: green screen background. So yeah, I apologize for all the
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: honking and gang sounds and did it perfectly confused National
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: guardsmen telling me to move my vehicle.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: I'd be remissed to John if I didn't throw the
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: question back to you, because we are at the end
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: of the year, we're celebrating amazing first year together doing
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: this podcast.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, who's inspired you this year?
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a great question, because there's there. I
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: don't even know where to begin you know, it's it's
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: not so much in famous names. There are there are
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: real heroes out there. I mean, there are true resistors,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: and most of them are people who who aren't well known.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I've got my favorite people. I've got
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: my you know, activists and artists and comedians and political
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: people that I like. And I'll be cheering on Jasmine
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Crockett and James tallerco and all these good people in
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Texas and the No King's protesters, and you know, I
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: think it's going to be in all of the above movement.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Right Corey Booker doing a twenty five hour speech in
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: the US Senate. Okay, maybe that didn't do anything, but
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: that has to happen. We got to throw that up there.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Gavin Newsom learning how to read the room and stop
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: sucking up to fascists and start calling them out in clever,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: original ways, like that's going to do it. But I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: think I got to be honest, My biggest heroes right
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: now are people who walk away from this, Christians who
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: actually read the Jesus parts and say, my God, what
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: have I been doing. It's going to be very hard
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: for a lot of us to handle this. And I say,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: this in my books, too. Right wing people growing beyond
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: their programming is not to be met with smug liberal
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: I told you sos So. I think as more people
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: decolonize their own minds, as more maga folks think, okay, well,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: covering up child rape, that's my line. Or slaughtering innocent
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: people in the water with no evidence, no due process,
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: that's my line. It's hard to imagine, but I think
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: every day more and more folks, especially military and law enforcement,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: are reaching their limit with this. I don't know how
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: this thing sustains for a few years, but of all
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: the many people and artists I admire, I just want
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: to give some special gratitude towards the conservatives who walk
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: away from this with all the negative energy and peer
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: pressure that they're going to face, because this is an
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: authority Harran cult of personality movement, and boy oh boy,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: obedience is rewarded, an independent thought is punished. So God
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: bless everyone who, especially the young people who still love
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: their parents but can't pretend to go along with this
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: nonsense anymore. I want to ask you, Corey, if future
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: historians look back on this year, what do you think
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: will determine whether they call this a turning point or
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: the year we failed to stop the slide? Is it
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: too soon to tell. I'm not an optimist. I'm a
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: recovering cynic, but I don't see this ending well for
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: the Trump movement. I think if Marjorie Taylor Green is
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: committing political Harry Carey out of pure self interest, it's
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: a pretty good bell weather. But I mean, what do
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: you think? Is this the year that this thing began
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: to end or is this the year that this thing
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: really took root.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: I'm loving this conversation, John, and I want to just
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: emphasize your great point too about finding those MAGA individuals who,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: whether it be through the Epstein five or some other story,
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: ors starting to realize that they were complicit in something
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: extremely dangerous for the country, beginning to turn and not
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: chastising them but welcoming them into the movement for democracy.
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: That's such a profound point on the other question of
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: you know where we are and hoping that there are
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: more of these people, you know, I take solace in history,
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: as you know, and I am glad that I wrote
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: this book and did this deep dive into history, because
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: I really do get a lot of reassurance from the
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: pattern that I see in American history that we've seen
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: these dangerous moments before, knowing that during Adam shutdown of
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: the Opposition Party, it felt like America wasn't going to recover.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: We talked about dred Scott. President Buchanan, of course, urged
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: the court to deny.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Rights to all black Americans.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: It couldn't have very hard to be optimistic in a
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: moment like that. And the same is true with Woodrow
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: Wilson and his resegregation of the federal government, his nationalism
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: mixed with white supremacy. Nixon as he was reelected in
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, were living.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: In those moments.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: It looked frightening, and yet we recovered in each of
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: them because citizens fought back Bush.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: And that's what that's what I think is going to
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: happen now.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: I think that is where we are, that we're starting
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: to see the tide turn because there's an awareness and
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: that's the first step in recovery.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Bush, Cheney and the Iraq War and their reelection and
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: O four, I mean it was exactly like this one.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: We knew that this president had lied to the people
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: and that Americans had died in Bush's case, it was
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: a war. In Trump's case, it was a plague. And
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: yet folks went for the authoritarian they knew were lying
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: to them, and it seemed like the end of the world.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: At the time, it seemed like the end of America.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: And yet we persisted and things got better. And I'll
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: point out that since we drove Bush and Cheney from office,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: we've gotten marriage equality, we got the first black president,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: we're not throwing people in jail for cannabis anymore. In
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: so many ways we are getting better. But Corey, I
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: want to close it with this, I mean, your work
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: and this show. We talk all the time about what
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: democracy demands of office hall. With a new year on
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: the horizon, let me ask you, what is democracy now
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: demand of citizens?
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I think we've got to do more of what
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: you and I were celebrating, more talking to your family,
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: more insisting on facts. So much of the problem and
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: the assault on democracy is misinformation, calling people out when
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: they lie about what's.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Happening without any evidence.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: And then most of all, you know, there is a
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: practical thing that needs to be done, which is as
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: we start to look to the midterms, and this show
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: will be a force I think in the midterms.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: We're hosting people running for.
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: Office, people who will already hold office. We're going to
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: have some amazing announcements about people from the judiciary at
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: a very high level who are going to be speaking
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: to us.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: And that's all for a purpose.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: You know, this isn't just a show that's meant to
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: provide information.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: We want to do that.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: We're very careful with our fact checking, but we also
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: are trying to see the self coup, this attempted destruction
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: of democracy for what it is and the root to recovery,
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: and part of that's going to be the midterm. So
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: that's a lot of what I'm looking to people to
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: do to get involved as this election approaches.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: I want to express so much gratitude to you, Professor,
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: and to all of the deeply sexually attractive listeners of
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: this podcast. While the brilliance of the people who subscribe
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: to this show, who like us, who give us good reviews,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: who shared on their social media is matched only by
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: the deep sexiness and benevolent brilliance of Beowulf and Wendy
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: and everyone who helps put this show together. It really
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: has been a great pleasure for me. I feel like
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: every week, I get to be the kid cheating off
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: the smart Kets paper. Thanks to you, and I hope
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: you and your family have a wonderful holiday season, Professor.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: And a great holiday to you, John, and just to
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: all our listeners, thank you so much for making this
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: first year such a pleasure to do. We're facing a
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: real crisis and real danger, and yet the solidarity that
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: comes from doing this show every week is giving me
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of optimism and hope.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: And I just want to say, I'm not going to
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: miss Nicki Minaj enjoy Maga Nick Nikki. They'll love you
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: over there. Oh it's going to work out so well
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: for you. You have so much in common with those folks,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: and like kid rock, they really love your music. So
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: good on you. And thanks to everybody who listened to
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: this show who bought my book this year, Separation of
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: Church and Hate, and helped drive it to the New
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list. I'm so grateful to everyone who
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: would take a chance on that book, and it's just
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: very humbling to have had it be so successful. And
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: I look forward to getting to work on the follow
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: up in the new year. So thank you once again,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: and I wish a very happy holidays to everyone on
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: behalf of Professor Gorey Bretschneier. This is the open the
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Office peace,