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Critical Thinking · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: logical host, Abraham.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm your skeptical host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the things that people do and how we feel and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: sometimes how we feel about how we think, and that's
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: what we're what we do. So thank you for joining us.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully today you walk out of this questioning everything
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: you've ever believed. That's right.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole point of today's episode is to cause
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: existential panic.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Just kidding, ah, And look at that we can do
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: that with words. Isn't that fun?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Indeed? So anyway, as I said, thank you for joining us.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: If you are here with us for the very first time,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: we appreciate you being here. If you would like to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: support what you hero is doing today, you can join
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. I'll pick up some merch leave us
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: a rating and review, like, subscribe, share, do all the things.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: But first I would like to wish you happy eat
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: an extra dessert day.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: My nutrition ESTs would be so mad at me if
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I did that. It is Global Talent Acquisition Day.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: It is also National Macadamia Nut Day. Oh, I love
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  Speaker 1: macadamia nuts. Have you had macadamian nuts?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Oh? I have. I love them. And I'm gonna be
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: in Hawaii next week so or oh, I guess at
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the time that this comes out, I'll be in Hawaii,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: so I'll be having so many of them very much.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very good. I love those.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's National Wildlife Day, so take care of all
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  Speaker 2: those coyotes and armadillos and possums and insects and lizards
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  Speaker 2: and all the things that are around you that are
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  Speaker 2: not domesticated.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Right. Newspaper Carrier Day. Also care for the newspaper carrier.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, please do give them water. It is World Sexual
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Health Day, which I really love. Go get tested.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Indeed. It is Indigenous Literacy Day. That seems like a
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: really good one.
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  Speaker 2: That seems that feels good. It's a National Code Generation Day.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Apparently has to do with generating heat and power. At
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the same time, I like it to just be more efficient. Yeah.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: It is International Enthusiasm Week. You can tell the enthusiastic
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  Speaker 1: you did it better than I did. I.
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  Speaker 2: Listen, we did it together. That's where we're at. It's
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Zero Waste Week, which I like, no pooping.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: None of that. It is National Childhood Injury Prevention Week,
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  Speaker 1: so make all of your child's close bubble wrap this week.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, put pool noodles on the corners of all the
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  Speaker 2: corners in your house so that nobody gets nobody falls
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  Speaker 2: and gets hurt. It's National Nutrition Week.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Finally, Yeah, there's National payroll Week. Seah, I thought I
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  Speaker 1: had a lot more of those. So no one told
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  Speaker 1: my employers that this is the way.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to get paid annually. It is
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: National Waffle Week, which I love that.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic. It is self University Week? Is this just
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: like self education? Is that the idea?
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  Speaker 2: I think that's the idea. I hope that's not like
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  Speaker 2: the entire idea, Like I think that, you know, educating
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: yourself is great, but maybe calling yourself a university might
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: be a problem.
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  Speaker 1: The university of me.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, I am the only student enrolled and now I
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: owe myself financial aid. It is Sobriety Checkpoint Week, which
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  Speaker 2: is really great. I love that.
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  Speaker 1: Sure. Importantly, it is Hispanic Heritage Month Yay yay.
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  Speaker 2: Starting on September fifteenth through October fifteenth, so please please
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  Speaker 2: please celebrate and enjoy. It is sourdough September, so may
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  Speaker 2: your bread be crusty.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, sourdough February just does not have the same ring
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  Speaker 1: to it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
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  Speaker 1: Alopecia Areata Awareness Month. There's been a lot of awareness
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  Speaker 1: brought to alopecia more recently.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, I feel like I'm definitely more
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  Speaker 2: aware of it than I was before. It is National
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  Speaker 2: Spinal Cord Injury Awareness Month as well.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of movie like to pretend that those don't
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  Speaker 1: happen when they throw people into ridiculous situations where they
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  Speaker 1: should definitely not have walked away unscathed, but they did.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, just about every superhero should be paralyzed. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is National Sickle Cell Awareness Month. That's another very
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  Speaker 1: important one.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. It's also National Suicide Prevention Month.
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  Speaker 1: Incredibly important, definitely and last, but for certainly not least,
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  Speaker 1: and maybe the most important thing or the only important
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  Speaker 1: thing you hear us say today in this whole entire episode,
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  Speaker 1: is that it's Beyonce's birthday, Queen Bay, So get on
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  Speaker 1: the social meds and send a birthday message or just
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  Speaker 1: celebrate privately, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Whatever, do whatever you do for Beyonce's birthday. Whatever makes
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  Speaker 2: you happy and whatever serves the Queen, you know.
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  Speaker 1: So, as I said, we like to talk about psychology things.
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  Speaker 1: Although we do list the various holidays that people have
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  Speaker 1: come up with for fun because there are so many
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  Speaker 1: of them, and some of them are recently, some of
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  Speaker 1: them are very important and it's a thing that happens.
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  Speaker 1: But we are here to talk about thinking, and in
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  Speaker 1: this discussion we are primarily tackling the idea of critical thinking,
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  Speaker 1: something that many listeners, if not most, if not all,
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  Speaker 1: we'll hear and think, well, that seems like a very
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  Speaker 1: important topic because it seems to exist in a lot
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  Speaker 1: less than we would like it too in a world.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we're here to try and.
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  Speaker 1: Help a little bit with that for you know, the
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  Speaker 1: people who hear us and maybe share us with the
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  Speaker 1: people who need to hear this. But I think the
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  Speaker 1: important part of this is that we're going to be
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  Speaker 1: trying to define critical thinking. We're going to try and
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  Speaker 1: point out some how to's to be better at critical
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  Speaker 1: thinking and also highlight some easy pitfalls where mistakes can
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  Speaker 1: be made.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, so let's start with like we always like to do,
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  Speaker 2: with a nice definition and some background, and in order
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  Speaker 2: to get into anything else that we're talking about, we
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  Speaker 2: have to understand what critical thinking is. So, critical thinking
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  Speaker 2: is a specific behavior that involves analyzing information by considering
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  Speaker 2: the facts, the evidence, the arguments, the observations, and the
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  Speaker 2: coherence of information to evaluate the quality of that information.
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  Speaker 2: So basically, critical thinking requires you to take a lot
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  Speaker 2: of bits of information together and decide whether or not
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  Speaker 2: that bit of information is actually quality and useful.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we here some kind of argument, claim, statement, rhetoric
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  Speaker 1: that is portrayed, and we start trying to weigh that
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  Speaker 1: in terms of how useful or accurate that piece of
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  Speaker 1: information is, Like what can we take away from this
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  Speaker 1: piece of information, if anything? And the critical part of
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  Speaker 1: critical thinking. If you are less familiar with this term,
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  Speaker 1: it kind of sounds negative, say like critical thinking, I
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  Speaker 1: don't want to be critical. No, I mean, in a
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  Speaker 1: way it is negative because it is a strategy for
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  Speaker 1: subtracting out the incorrect and unnecessary information. But really, all
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  Speaker 1: we mean here is critical means of valuating the merits
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  Speaker 1: and the weaknesses of something. Usually in this case we're
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  Speaker 1: talking about like arguments and claims that people make.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So this is a very complex behavior and depends
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  Speaker 2: on a lot of other skills to kind of make
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  Speaker 2: it happen, and those skills require practice and sometimes even
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  Speaker 2: direct training, so you might have to be explicitly taught
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  Speaker 2: how to do some of these behaviors very much.
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean the tendency for us is kind of bias,
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  Speaker 1: and I don't mean bias in I think a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people hear bias and immediately think racism. That is
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  Speaker 1: certainly a form of bias. But mostly we have bias
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  Speaker 1: in terms of our tendencies to think and believe certain
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  Speaker 1: things quickly without really judging them by sort of carefully
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  Speaker 1: weighing the quality of those things. And we bring bias
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  Speaker 1: with us everywhere, and it's best to know what our
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  Speaker 1: biases are and how they can happen, so that when
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  Speaker 1: we can understand how our opinions about things might be
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  Speaker 1: being shaped sort of automatically. An important aspect to all
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  Speaker 1: of this, too, is the implication here is this is
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  Speaker 1: something that takes some work to do, and it seems
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  Speaker 1: to be the case that this is not something we
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  Speaker 1: do very naturally, that we don't just do it. We
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  Speaker 1: have to practice it, we have to be taught it
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  Speaker 1: we have to learn how to apply it. Neil deGrasse.
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  Speaker 1: Tyson made this point. He said, quote, I am convinced
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  Speaker 1: that the act of thinking logically cannot possibly be natural
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  Speaker 1: to the human mind. If it were, then mathematics would
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  Speaker 1: be everybody's easiest course at school, and our species would
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  Speaker 1: not have taken several millennia to figure out the scientific method.
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  Speaker 1: End quote. Wow, I think it makes some reasonable points.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So his statement does contain a critical thinking aspect.
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  Speaker 2: If someone were to argue that logical thinking was inherent
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  Speaker 2: to umans, we could start by considering what would we
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  Speaker 2: expect from humans, and Tyson argues that we would expect
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  Speaker 2: math to be intuitively simple and the scientific method to
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  Speaker 2: be a natural emergent as humans developed and evolved. So
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  Speaker 2: you know this idea that, like, what we know now
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  Speaker 2: about humans and what the expectation here is are two
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  Speaker 2: different things, right, Like, we would expect humans to be
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  Speaker 2: able to do this stuff if critical thinking were naturally occurring,
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  Speaker 2: but we know it's not because math is hard.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, say, really clearly evidenced by how many people struggle
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  Speaker 1: with and dislike math, and how we're still trying to
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  Speaker 1: like directly teach and help impart the scientific method, which
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  Speaker 1: by itself took a lot of sort of trial and
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  Speaker 1: error to develop in the way that it did.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean critical thinking is difficult. It requires
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  Speaker 1: extensive ongoing practice and is often not particularly fast. And
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  Speaker 1: the not particularly fast part can be be kind of
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  Speaker 1: an issue because it is really easy and really fast
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  Speaker 1: to spout nonsensical misleading in a misinformation. And there's this
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  Speaker 1: quote that I've heard that I don't I couldn't find
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  Speaker 1: who it's attributed to exactly, but it's quote, a lie
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  Speaker 1: can travel around the world while the truth is still
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  Speaker 1: putting on its shoes end quote.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the.
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  Speaker 1: Idea being that, like the amount of effort it takes
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  Speaker 1: to get a lie going is very very low, and
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  Speaker 1: it takes a long time to like really get to
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  Speaker 1: a good solid truth, and so lies can be spreading
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  Speaker 1: like wildfire while we're out there with eye droppers trying
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  Speaker 1: to put it out, you know. Right, it's a hugely
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  Speaker 1: complex battle that we are that those of us who
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  Speaker 1: are engaged in the in the critical thinking skepticism side
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  Speaker 1: of things, are sort of constantly up against Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's exhausting being a scientist, you know. Yeah, Now we
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  Speaker 2: are easily beguiled by arguments that sound coherent and Amazingly,
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  Speaker 2: a statement that is completely nonsense can sound like an
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  Speaker 2: argument that makes sense as long as you don't stop
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  Speaker 2: to think about it. So let's take an example of
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  Speaker 2: a group of people call themselves health practitioners who argue
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  Speaker 2: that their particular form of medicine can be used to
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  Speaker 2: treat any ailment, and that the reason that other doctors
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  Speaker 2: don't like it is because they want to charge you
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  Speaker 2: as much as they can for their more invasive medicine
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  Speaker 2: that will actually keep you sick. Right, So the idea is,
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  Speaker 2: I'm a health practitioner, I say I can cure everything,
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  Speaker 2: but nobody wants you to know about it because they
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  Speaker 2: want to charge you more.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but what does beguiled mean?
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  Speaker 2: Time, Oh, that's a good a good word. But guile means,
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  Speaker 2: if I'm going based on my understanding of the definition,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: is when you decide to cause play as guile from
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  Speaker 2: Street Fighter.
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  Speaker 1: That does make sense in the context of what we're saying.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's when you when somebody applies
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  Speaker 2: the makeup to you, you have been guiled. So big
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  Speaker 2: guile means to charm or enchant someone sometimes in a
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  Speaker 2: deceptive way.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's sort of hooking you in if you will.
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  Speaker 1: It's you sort of lure someone into believing something by
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  Speaker 1: tricking them. Yes, So, anyway, we're going back to this
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  Speaker 1: example we had about these people who say, Hey, I've
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  Speaker 1: got the cure to everything you know. Just come over
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  Speaker 1: to me and i'll get it to you. The doctors
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  Speaker 1: don't want you to have it because they're trying to
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  Speaker 1: keep you sick, et cetera. Okay, now, many of us
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  Speaker 1: will hear this and immediately think that's dumb. I know
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  Speaker 1: what you're up to. But I think for a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people this argument will sound fairly reasonable. If someone
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  Speaker 1: had a better cure for a disease than the medical
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  Speaker 1: establishment did, then we could reasonably suppose that that would
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  Speaker 1: then threaten the financial stability of the medical establishment, who
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  Speaker 1: might then try and combat that financial threat that treatment
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  Speaker 1: or whatever by discrediting it as something that doesn't work.
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  Speaker 1: So like you could sort of see what looks like
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  Speaker 1: the tendrils of logic embedded in that.
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  Speaker 2: Right. So when you go further, these quote unquote health
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  Speaker 2: practitioners claim that doctors are just trying to get your money.
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  Speaker 2: But the health practitioners that are actual health practitioners are
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  Speaker 2: also trying to get your money, and often more of it.
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  Speaker 2: So the claim that one group is trying to get
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  Speaker 2: your money misleads you by suggesting that the other group
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  Speaker 2: isn't when they definitely are. So it's saying that, oh,
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  Speaker 2: they're doing this, but the truth is the person that
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  Speaker 2: you're talking to is also doing that thing. Further, this
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  Speaker 2: is a little kind of off point, but often these
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  Speaker 2: unlicensed medical people will provide initial treatments for free or
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  Speaker 2: a very low cost to get you in the door,
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  Speaker 2: and then we'll start piling on the premium stuff once
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  Speaker 2: you're hooked. I mean that's scientology in a nutshell.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of them, I mean they're sort
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  Speaker 1: of like, don't go to those doctors. They just want
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  Speaker 1: to take all your money. They're going to charge you
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  Speaker 1: an arm and a leg. Come over to me. I'm
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: gonna like, I have the snake oil for sale that
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  Speaker 1: you can buy for the low low price of you know,
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  Speaker 1: one thousand dollars or you know, as you said, they
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  Speaker 1: could be like, here's a free sample, this will definitely
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  Speaker 1: cure your and then you know, here's you come back
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: and buy some more when you see how effective this
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: is and in those instances, what they're actually relying on.
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  Speaker 1: And I didn't think to include in a discussion here,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: but is a phenomenon called the regression to the mean,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: which is that we tend to wherever we find ourselves
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: in an extreme, we tend to then revert back to
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  Speaker 1: sort of an average. And this is really common in
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  Speaker 1: health and illness. We're like, as you, you will get sick,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and when you're at sort of the height of your
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  Speaker 1: sickness and you're trying to find remedies, you're also probably
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: on the way down toward recovery, and so anything you
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: take on the road to recovery could look like it
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  Speaker 1: caused you to recover when you are probably just going
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  Speaker 1: to recover anyway because you're your body was already fighting it.
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  Speaker 1: But well timed snake oil that falls in that period
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: of time while you're at the height of your recovery
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  Speaker 1: to you feeling better, will then have you feel like
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  Speaker 1: that was the reason you feel better, even though it
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  Speaker 1: had nothing to actually do with it.
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  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely well, speaking of snake oil, here's ads.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so don't buy the snake oil. Going back to
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  Speaker 1: this argument, or this example that we have been piloting
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  Speaker 1: here in the instance of someone who's claiming to be
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  Speaker 1: a health practitioner having the cure for everything. Let's also
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  Speaker 1: unpack here the fact that we have never found any
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: medicine that is effective for treating all ailments. And again
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: you could hear the sort of conspiracy theorists going, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's because they don't want you to have it so
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  Speaker 1: that they can keep selling you all these other drugs,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: et cetera. Sure, multiple things to unpack there, but likely
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: such a medicine doesn't exist and never will. And for
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  Speaker 1: one thing, a really important reason here, what is a
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  Speaker 1: treatment for one condition might make another condition significantly worse.
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  Speaker 1: The pathologies can be so different across these different conditions
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  Speaker 1: as to be basically the opposite, so that anything meant
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  Speaker 1: to alleviate the symptoms of one would actually exacerbate the
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: symptoms of another. Because the spectrum of problems that we
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: can have is vast, and many of them lie on
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: opposite ends of the spectrum.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So let's take the simple example of temperature. Someone
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: who's having a heat stroke needs to have their temperature lowered.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Someone who is suffering from hypothermia needs their body temperature
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  Speaker 2: increased would work for someone suffering from excessive heat, would
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  Speaker 2: kill someone suffering from hypothermia. So there is no panacea
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: in that situation exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are just some things that are counter recommended.
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  Speaker 1: And so it's like you, it's unlikely we're ever going
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  Speaker 1: to find anything that works for everything, because for some
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  Speaker 1: things that the afe that medicine has would be therapeutic
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  Speaker 1: in some contexts and the opposite of therapeutic in others, right,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: or counter therapeutic is the other way of saying that. Right,
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  Speaker 1: But I mean that's just a fact of how things work.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we just don't have cures for everything. And
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  Speaker 1: that's true outside of medicine as well. Now, finally, here,
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  Speaker 1: medical interventions used by licensed doctors are vetted over decades
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  Speaker 1: and hundreds of studies, replicated by many different doctors around
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  Speaker 1: the world. Okay, like that's just that is how that
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  Speaker 1: general field has evolved. Really, all science based fields have
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  Speaker 1: evolved this way. So the strategies they use are then
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  Speaker 1: supported by a preponderance of evidence. And it is unreasonable
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  Speaker 1: to suppose that most or many doctors are so greedy
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  Speaker 1: for money that they don't that every single one of them,
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  Speaker 1: they don't want to actually help people's condition, not to
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  Speaker 1: mention the fact that most people who get their help
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  Speaker 1: from a licensed doctor do in fact show improvement. And
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: so all this is to say that, like, to believe
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that every one of these doctors is trying to keep
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: effective medicine out of the hands of their patients is
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: a very cynical view of doctors. And I think it
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: requires a suspension or a suspension of our disbelief about
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: like what like but all of them, all, every one
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of them, all of them, really, every one of them,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: like even half of them, Like that's so many. Like
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: there are gonna be some people who got into this
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: just to help people. And if they, if they, you know,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: found out about this, then they would be, you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: easily pushing this as the cure. All and so many
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: doctors will jump ship from the medical establishment to go
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: over on the other side of things. But it's because
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: they're trying to sell snake oil, because they can make
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: a lot more money that way, because they're not hampered
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: by things like evidence and insurance and requirements of efficacy.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So like they can sell things cheaper, they can do
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: them faster, they can make promises that they can't keep
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: because they're no longer licensed. Right, But then we also
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: look at the fact that, like you're saying, oh, well,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you know, these doctors are just trying to keep you sick.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, then, why do most people get better when
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: they go to see the doctor? Cause, right, seem that's
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: what mostly happens.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: One thing I want to kind of point out at
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: this point too, is think about how long it took
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: us to unpack that statement of I'm a health practitioner
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and I can sell you this cure when these other
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: doctors want to make money. Like, think about all the
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: logic and all of the understanding and all of the
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: information that we just had to gather just to make
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: the argument, the simple argument that why would any doctor
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: want you sicker? Right? And so that is kind of
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: the I think maybe the kryptonite that attacks critical thinking
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: and the grand scheme of humanity is it took that
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: much time just to unpack a simple statement that most
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: of us probably already know. But there are a lot
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of people that don't believe that.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, very good point. Yeah, great, great job. I
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: think latching onto that the prime example that we of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: the argument we made right up front? Is that how
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: difficult it is to combat misinformation because misinformation has no obligations. Nope,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: it does not have to lean on analysis or evidence.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, it is hampered by it, right, and
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: so it can go very very fast, and working out
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: why it doesn't make sense is just a longer process,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: as evidenced by us unpacking this one, I guess kind
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: of hypothetical. I mean, that is an exact thing that
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: has happened, although I wasn't citing a specific incidence for
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: our example, but yeah, unpacking this example here, it just
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: took It took us a long time.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So critical thinking is broadly accepted as a
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: fundamentally important skill, and arguably it is the most important
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: skill that is taught in high school and college. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: our world is full of misinformation and people attempting to manipulate,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: trick and scam others. And it's evolving. As we develop
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: new technologies and we develop new ways to communicate, that
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: starts to kind of evolve and change a lot more.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: If you've ever gotten a text from a Nigerian prince,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: then you know that has moved from the email format
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: evolution right there, Yep, that's it. That is advancement at
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: its finest.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that I've read some studies before
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: that showed that essentially people who go to the more
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: education they receive, the better they are at at critical thinking.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Generally speaking, Again, this is not it's not universally true
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that you go to like Trump University, you will definitely
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: leave worse than when you arrived.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: But most of the time, the more education you receive,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the better you will be at this. And you could
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: also be very good at this well without having received
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: direct training from an education institution as well. So it's
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: actually an important part of this here is that critical
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: thinking is I think one of the greatest tools we
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: have for advancing our culture, our politics, our technology, and
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: even our species. More generally speaking, critical thinking even useful
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: in like financial decision making. It is just good. Everything
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: about it is just good, and it is accessible to everyone,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and it is free if we make it accessible to everyone,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: which I think most lot largely people have tried to
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: make this accessible to everybody. But like, you don't have
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: to buy critical thinking right like you can learn it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Part of what we're doing here today is to provide
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: this to be accessible and to be free and so yeah,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: that is just one of the beautiful things about it,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I think is that I would make the case that
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I think critical thinking is as close to a panacee
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: as we're going to get for the problems that plague
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: our species that are related to our own behavior, because
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: there are definitely plenty of threats to our species that
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: are not related to our to our own behavior, like sharks.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Not just kidding, sharks are wonderful. Don't take that thanks
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to sharks asteroids. Let's go with stories. Yes, but we
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: can do this, you know, we can teach critical thinking.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Anybody can do it, and they can do it for free.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Right. So, one of the fundamental underlying issues in the
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: divisiveness of so many groups though in the world, and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: this is an argument that we can make, is that
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: there is a lack of critical thinking by one or
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: both sides of many issues. So you've got folks on
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: one side of an issue, folks on another side of
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: an issue, or people are just not communicating in a
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: way that allows for critical thinking to bloom and blossom
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: and create these kind of unique spaces where people can
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: actually have conversations about the problem at hand.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: And it's hard, and there are bad actors who don't
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: want us to think critically. They don't want to engage
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: in critical thinking because they can exploit weaknesses by essentially, well,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: we'll get to some of the strategies that they use specifically,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: but they'll exploit those vulnerabilities in our own reasoning and
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: logic and trick us because they know that we there
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: are so many people who don't know how to avoid
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: being exploited and tricked and hoodwinked by these entities and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: their nefarious motivations. Right, And so that's why another reason
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: that we think it's so important that we communicate this
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: as effectively and consistently as we can, because there are
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: prevailing circumstances that are going to motivate people to try
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: and swindle other people. That is just part of the
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: network of systems that we have built, Capitalism included, although
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: it's not the only one, where we have incentivized trying
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to take advantage of others. And one way to do
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: that is to trick them into believing things that we
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: say that are not true or are misleading.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Critical thinking is a guard against this. Critical thinking is
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the vaccine against misinformation, and it is the treatment against
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: the sort of brainwashed hordes of people who have been
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: looped into conspiracy theories and whatnot.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, so I think that begs the question. It's
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: such an important tool and everybody has the capability of
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: doing it. How do we do this? Like, where do
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: we start? How do we do this? What does critical
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: thinking look like? And how can we just take some
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: time to practice it? Even?
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean one of the ways to not
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: do it is ads. Okay, so let's go to a
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: discussion I'm going to lovingly call how to critical Think.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: And mostly there's some sort of sub sections here where
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some specific strategies that you
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: can use to help you be better at critical thinking
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: or help teach other people critical thinking. And the first
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: one is so massively important that if you leave this
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: episode with nothing else, remember this one single point and
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: you'll be doing better than most people. And that is
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: consider that you might be wrong about something that you
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: think or believe.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Right, So, one of the most general and important skills
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: in critical thinking is considering that you might be wrong.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: This is thinking about thinking, and that idea of thinking
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: about thinking is called metacognition. So it's super meta if
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you get it like, it's like you're thinking about thinking,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and then when you're thinking about the fact that you're
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: thinking about thinking, and it turns into the just layers
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and layers of things. But if you're interested in being
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: a critical thinker, then learn to start asking yourself in
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: good faith, why do I think this is the right answer?
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: What information and evidence supports my answer? What would a
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: counter argument be? What other explanations could there be for this?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And similar questions like that. So basically, what you're asking
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: is what makes me think I'm right and what could
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: prove that I'm wrong.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, that simple exercise is something that most people do
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: not do in their sort of day to day activity
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: or ever really right, and it is one of the
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: biggest game changers you could possibly engage in. Ask in
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: what way could I be wrong? Why do I think
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: that I am right? What evidence do I have? Et cetera.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: And the simple exercise is more than most people know
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: how to do and as a substantial game changer in
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: elevating your ability to be wrong less often. So if
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: you're trying to be right more and wrong less, use
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: this tool. It will get you there at least part
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of the way right. An important part of this is
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that you do actually challenge yourself with an open mind
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: that you could discover that you're wrong, Because if you
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: just say to yourself, why do I think I'm right
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: because I am like, then you won't learn anything new right.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: You will only learn by being open to the idea
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: that you could be wrong about kind of anything really right.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: So play the game of if the opposite were true,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: would I also be in support of this? So, for instance,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: when the hosts at Fox News suspected that Taylor Swift
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: might endorse a Democratic candidate, they said, quote, she should
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: just stay out of politics. Of course, what if Taylor
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Swift was going to endorse their candidate, would they still
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: argue that you should stay out of politics? They then
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and celebrated public endorsements from people like Kid Rock, who
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: endorsed the Boudabac candidate. And so it is not the
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: fact that she is involved in politics. It's that they
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: don't want her to endorse someone else. But they are
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: pretending it's about her being involved in politics as a
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: public figure. So the idea that we just said, is
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: the opposite true, or like, could I support this if
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: the opposite were true? Then you see that argument falls
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: apart right away because it doesn't serve that person for
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: being quote unquote right. Yeah.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people say like, it's the
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: principle of the thing, And sometimes that's absolutely true. Sometimes
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: it is the principle of the thing that's the reason
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that they believe something or another. But just like if
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that's true, then the opposite circumstance would apply and you'd
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: still be in support of that conclusion, right right, So
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: that's a useful aspect about this is just constantly thinking
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: what if the opposite were true? Again, and more than
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: anything here, if you leave here with nothing else, it
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: is could I what makes me think I'm right? What
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: could prove me wrong? Like those asking those questions and
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: again in good faith if you ask them, just thinking
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: like well I am right, so uh what could make
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: me right? And probably nothing? Like you really haven't having
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: to actually done this, So if you're not gonna do it,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: then like, don't do it, like you're already you already
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: are where you are, Like let's not pretend you're doing
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: critical thinking when you're not. But like, if you are
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: actually interested in getting better at this, and this is
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: not just for your own sake, Like it is, I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: think I prefer to be right more often than I
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: am wrong, but being wrong helps me learn right, so
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I accept that that is like I'm going to be
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: wrong about things right, but like for yourself, you get
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to be right more often. But also like, people will
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: exploit this in you if you are unwilling to challenge yourself, like,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: they will find ways to manipulate you by leaning on
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the fact that you would be unwilling to consider that
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you might be wrong, and then telling you some piece
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of information that's not really something you'd heard before and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: so you have no reason to think it's not necessarily true, right,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: and then you just accept it.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So, like, probably the most important thing that we could
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: possibly tell you today. But there are some more strategies
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: that can help round out the comprehensiveness of your critical
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: thinking toolbox.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, so another thing is checking your sources. Relatedly, an
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: aspect of critical thinking is using information and evidence to
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: arrive and support the opinion. Find evidence, then find more evidence.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: After you find that evidence, find more evidence. All the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: citations and the sources back up the information from multiple
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: different sources, not just from the same source, and the
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: more corroborating evidence. The more I'll use this term before two.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It's not corroboration, but it's I can't think of what
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: the word is, but I've heard you use this phrase before,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: where basically everything aligns. The more evidence you have, the
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: more corroborating evidence you have, the more from more independent sources,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: the more sure you can be of your position, basically saying,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: if you can get the same answer from multiple sources,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: then you're probably more likely right if you've got consensus.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: That's the word. I'm looking for, consensus across multiple reliable resources.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: That are independent from one another. Yes, absolutely, yes, And
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: just as important as finding that evidence is evaluating the
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: quality of that evidence. So it is worth asking does
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: this source have an agenda? Right? If you're looking at
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: a study by Coca Cola that says that dentist recommends
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: drinking Coca cola and Coca cola will improve all of
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: your health outcomes, and they're the ones who ran published
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: in fun of the study, there's a good chance you
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: maybe shouldn't believe it. It runs counter to the evidence
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: of which we are familiar. And it also is like
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: from a source that very clearly has a bias agenda
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: right right now. To be fair, most sources that are
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: providing some kind of information do have some sort of agenda.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: They do.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: They will definitely have some kind of bias everyone, not
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: just some of them, all of them, okay, But knowing
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: what the bias is, what their agenda is, can help
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: you qualify that evidence. So again, if I had the
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: journal Coke, published by Coke, sponsored by Coke, and conducted
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: by Coke, that says that Coca cola was good for you,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: then that is something that's going to convince me much
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: less than a separate study from a medical journal from
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: medical professionals who then reach some like let's just say
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: this is like published in the journal Nature, and they
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: like they come out or Jamma, you know one of
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: the medical journals. Yeah, they come out and they say, no,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: coke actually is better for your teeth. That is now
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: an independent, separate source that is not being funded by
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: a conflict of interest. Now they have their own agendas. Sure,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: but we do now have multiple people and we can
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: try to figure out what their agenda might be, particularly
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: if we find out that it just so happens to
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: be that one of the author's name is Coca Cola otherwise, like,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: we now have more independent sources, and so just because
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the source have an agenda doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: but it can't help elucidate what the bias might be
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and what it is, you know. Yeah, and it's also
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: worth worth asking if the source is generally considered a
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: reliable source, if it is generally contradictory to most widely
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: accepted evidence and sources, or as you mentioned, consensus, right
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: is like the consensus of people say this, but then
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: this one fringe person over here says something different, and
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: then that's the person you choose to listen to for
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: some reason, right, Like, So if it's contradictory, and then
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: again if it's if it's logically and internally consistent, those
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: are other things to consider in terms of your evidence
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: as far as whether or not this is probably good evidence,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like does this make sense with things that I already know?
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Is this like logically consistent within itself? Are they contradicting
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: themselves in their various statements? Like the arguments from the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: anti climate change crowd have said things like climate change
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: isn't real and it is good, and I'm like, if
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: it is good, then you believe it's real if it's
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: not real, and I don't know how you could think
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: that is good, right, Like, those two things don't work together,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Like you got to pick a lane. So that's I
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: think an example sometimes of where like they will spout
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that they sound like real arguments,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: but if you stop and think about them just a
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: little tiny bit, like they are no longer even internally
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: consistent with themselves. So anyway, that's kind of a side tangent.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: The point being here is look at the source of
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: your evidence, consider their bias, trying to figure out what
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: their agenda.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Is right, right, right, absolutely. I think that's a great idea.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Another thing you could do is embrace nuance and many,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: if not most arguments frame discussion in two extremes or
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: binary arguments. Either something is right or wrong. It's either
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: all this way or all that way. However, sometimes aspects
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of both arguments are correct, and we've seen that multiple times.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: And if two parties let's talk about politics for a second.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: If two parties are arguing over a topic about which
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: they both believe, feel and feel strongly about, it may
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: be the case that both of them have some valid
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: arguments that don't necessarily negate one another. Like I kind
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: of talk about this a lot when it comes to politics.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Most of the time, when it comes to like certain policies,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I would imagine that people who are arguing in good
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: faith are probably trying to get to the same solution,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: which is the betterment of people. Right, Yeah, that's that's
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: generally what people are arguing. They just have different ways
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: to go about that, and there might be multiple solutions
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: or collection of solutions that work together to make that work.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: The nuance is really what makes the difference, right, Like
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: in that piece, that ability to look at multiple bits
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: of information and accept that not everything is all right
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: or all wrong. There is some some like levels and
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: variations inside of that. But that's what Paul Offite says, Right,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: That's the whole thing about Paul off is like part
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: of the reason that science communicators at such a hard
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: time is because they cannot deal in absolutes, because science
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: never deals in absolutes unless it's like a law.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, is that we'll
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: often couch things in the context of mostly or we
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: think that or it could be the case that and
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: like that's how we set up the framing of our
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: discussion points, and the opposite side is saying this is
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: what one hundred percent, this way, all the time, always,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: no matter what, And so we're sort of often like
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: on the one hand, and like you actually part of
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: what you said is technically accurate, taking out of context,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: skewed a little bit, but like there's an aspect of
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: this that's kind of correct. Well, people have already lost it,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Like wait a minute, you said they're right, so I'm
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: moving on, right, And also like everything they said is wrong,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: except there's an aspect of this that's like technically kind
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: of true. Just that sentence alone, you've like lost your audience, right, right,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is that there is nuance,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Like there are aspects most of the time of both
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: sides that have something true. Now, there are people that
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: are bad actors, who act in bad faith, who actually
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: have nothing valid to say, right, like the flatter argument,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: there's literally nothing that like they contradict themselves. There's nothing
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: that they there's no evidence they've ever brought. It doesn't
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: make any sense anywhere across the entire spectrum. They there's
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: nothing that they contribute to the conversation that is like
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: actually a valid point that they make. Ever, it's it's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: all right. It's one of the reasons it's so confounding
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: to me because I was, like most other things, I
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: could like start to understand, like what aspects of this
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: can I learn something new from where you, like you're
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: making a point, I should consider the validity of that point.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: But there's this one niche little thing, the flat earth thing,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: where I'm like everything, every single thing that you think
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: and say is wrong, like just.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Flat wrong, yeah, just flat wrong, like not even roundly.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: No wrong, not spheroid you know that argument.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you bring that one up, because
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: like there are small elements that are nuanced things that
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: like you could partially call right, like not that the
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: earth is flat. But part of the arguments that happen
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: inside of that is they say, oh, well, the government
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: is not telling you all of the information. Sure, the
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: government doesn't tell you. There's a lot of there's a
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: lot of things that the government does not tell you.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: That part is true. They're not hiding that the earth
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: is flat, but there is that kind of nuance of like, yes,
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: you don't have access to all the information that the government,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: but would possibly have about certain things, right, Like that
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: part is true? Okay, right, so like that's the thing
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: that kind of like, you know, people will say, you know,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: when you get into conspiracy theories, there's always like a
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: small nugget of truth somewhere in some way and some aspect,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: but the rest of it is just totally blown out
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: of proportion and ridiculous. Yeah.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Well, and actually that very argument is a logical fallacy,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: which we will be unpacking in a moment. Yes, to say, like, oh, well,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the Earth is flat because the government is hiding this
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: information for you, I'm like, the fact that they're hiding
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: information doesn't make the earth flat. But okay, right, that
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: other thing that's unrelated to the first thing that you
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: said does have some accuracy to.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: It, right, right, exactly exactly.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: So ultimately, here it's important to consider diverse perspectives, even
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: if you disagree or expect to disbelieve the other points.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: It is good just to hear what is said. And
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: this is part of why I have watched and read
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: a bunch of the flatter of things, is because now
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: I have heard their side and can speak with confidence
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: that they don't know what they're talking about. Yeah, this
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: does not mean that all arguments should be considered equally.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: If we're discussing climate change and one of the arguments
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: is that it is being caused by satanic aliens on
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: a cocaine vender, then we can listen to that, look
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: at the abundant lack of evidence, and throw this on
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the way too unlikely to be true pile of nonsense
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that gets thrown into that discussion because like, it's so
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: easy to spend a ton of time dismantling arguments no
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: matter how asinine they are, and then getting nowhere because
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: we're spending all of our time debunking those arguments, which
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: is actually a strategy that people will use when they're
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: trying to spread misinformation, is to just fire hose misinformation
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: at you so you don't actually have a chance to
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: make any valid points. You're just taking down the things
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that they that they're lying about as quickly as they
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: possibly can.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Right. Absolutely, there are some people who will just flood
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: the discussion with a lot of these unlikely scenarios so
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: as to waste everybody's time. I'm debunking nonsense just to
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: avoid having a real conversation about the issues, And this
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: is super counterproductive. It slows down or prevents real discourse.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: It really it. This is called sea lioning. It's a
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: common strategy of Tucker Carlson. If you've ever watched anything
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: that he's ever done, he just floods discussion with an
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: avalanche of nonsense that does not make any sense, that
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: throws you off on like how to argue or what
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: to talk about, Like you kind of like, yo, okay, well,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: but like I'm going to go back to the point
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: that we were talking about ten points ago, but now
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you've thrown fifteen different unrelated things at me and I
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: have to now debunk all of these things, and it's
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: just kind of like, it's just an awful It's an
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: awful way to have a discussion.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And the whole point of this general section
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: was to talk about looking for nuance, and I think
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: we sort of devolved into not necessarily devolved, but I
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: think we got a little side tracked with the fact that,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: like there are people who try and they avoid us
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: having a conversation about nuance because then eventually you arrive
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: at a position that does not one that they agree with.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: But nuance is very important because, as we said, it
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: tends to be the case that in good faith arguments,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: people on both sides who feel strongly probably have some
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: valid points that they're making right, and at some point
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: it might come down to a values judgment where it's like,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: you're right if the value that you have is this,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: but that's not the value that I have, So that's
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: why I think that this is wrong, and that's okay,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Like there's really no you're at an impasse because you're
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: just going to have to agree that we don't agree
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: on this value and that therefore it entails different conclusions.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: But even a landing at that place is I think
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: a much better place.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: To be right.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, the value decreases significantly when you insert ads. So
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: let's go to our next thing that to help with
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: critical thinking, which is considering the assumptions and implications of
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: an argument.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, so when you hear make a claim or an argument,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: it tends to have a built in assumption and some implications.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: So what you should start trying to do is identify
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: the assumption and the arguments you hear. This is called
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: the unstated premise or the anthemme, which is just so
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: many soft sounds in that word. There was a health
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: practitioner who argued that people should walk barefoot by moonlight
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: so that your feet can absorb moonbeams. Now, there are
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: a few unstated assumptions here, One that moonbeams can be
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: deposited in the ground, two that they can be absorbed
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: through the soles of your feet, Three that this is
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: something missing from our daily activity, and four that this
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: is somehow supposed to be healthful. So inside of that,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: walking barefoot should by moonlight should be good for you
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: could should be good for your health. It's all like,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: when you really unpack that argument, you go, oh, there's
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: a lot to be said in just telling people to
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: walk barefoot to get moonbeams.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also consider some implications even if moon let's
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: just pretend that any part of what they said was right,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Even if walking by moonlight could absorb some moonbeams through
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: the soul of our feet. Does the benefits gain from
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: this thing that no one is doing outweigh the risks
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: of the potential for stepping on something that could seriously
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: injure your feet, like getting a cut or scrape or
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: tenda's or something like that.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: But also like, isn't it worth it to take a
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: second to go like, what is a moonbeam but a
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: reflected sunbeam?
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Like, is that just that is truly unstated as of this,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: It's just reflected light. It's just reflected light, Like if
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: you shine, it'd be like does the property of light
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: change substantially when it hits a mirror or like a
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: surface that happens to be light colored. No?
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: No, but there are people that like buy into this. Right. So,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: in a conversation that we've had before and where we
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: express there's some skepticism about someone's self diagnosis, the response
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: that was received was that the person, quote this is
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: a direct quote from them, they would know if their
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: mind works differently than other people end quote. When you
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: hear this, it's pretty easy to flag the implication that
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: this would mean that the person would have to know
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: how everyone else's mind works to know that theirs was different.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: So in that case, this person should definitely be a
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: world renowned detective because that is an ability no human
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: has ever had before. Like it's one of those things
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: where when somebody makes an argument based on like knowing
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: something without having the experience or the backing or any
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: of those things, and you kind of have to take
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: a second go like really, is that really what we're
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: doing now?
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: You know, a significant amount of the arguments I have
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: found myself in there are a lot of unstated assumptions
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: that are implied by the arguments or statements that people
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: are making. And like those alone take a while to
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: like dig in on and figure out what's going on,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: it renders the rest of their argument basically moot because
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: the position from which they're starting is nonsense. Right, So
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: it's like you can grow something that looks like reason
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: out of nonsense, but it is still nonsense because it
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: starts from nonsense and it only sounds like words that
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: let make a sentence that you can understand.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Right exactly. Yeah, it is so common.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: I wish I had more examples, like just right off
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: the top of my head, but it is. There are
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of these premises, and this happens a lot
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: in political discourse, especially where someone's making some point about
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: some policy or something and they'll state something that embedded
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: in that thing, there are assumptions and implications that they
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: are choosing to ignore for the expediency of making a
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: point that they're hoping you won't question, right exactly.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: The last major strategy here is is kind of it
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: could be potentially a long one, but we'll just try
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: and ends up through it as efficiently as we can,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: which is to avoid making logical fallacies and also be
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: on the lookout for people who are making logical fallacies
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: to persuade you to believe something right.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: So we have covered a few different logical fallacies on
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: the show before, and it would be worth unpacking many
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: of them in more detail with examples at some point.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: And these are arguments in which they are illogically incorrect
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: or poor, although they often sound reasonable on the surface.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: So engaging like, using logical fallacies is a really good
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: way to be wrong really fast. If you're trying not
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: to be right, logical fallacies is definitely the way to go.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: Versus if you are trying to be right, logical fallacies
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: is not the way to go, even when they would
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: be expedient to do so, like, just don't, it'll hurt
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: you in the long run. They're also really not particularly
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: difficult to dismantle, so avoid using them in your own arguments,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: and then notice when people are using them themselves, because
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: they do it a lot, a lot, a lot, maybe
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: dare I say most of the time when they're making
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: some argument it seems to have at least one, if
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: not many, embedded logical fallacies.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Right, So is equally important to recognize it you're doing this,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: but also to recognize when somebody else is making these
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: arguments or using these arguments to try to beguile you
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: into believing or accepting something demonstrably false. So we're going
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to go over a brief list of some common logical
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: fallacies with brief descriptions so that we can go into
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: this and maybe some more episodes later or some different
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: minis and whatnot.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: All Right, so we're gonna cover three quick ones that
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: you're likely to run into. The first one is an
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: ad hominem attack. This one's actually become so much better
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: recognized that I've even heard them discuss this on the news,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: so I think that people are becoming more aware of this.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: This is tantamount to name calling. This is basically just
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: saying something mean about your opponent rather than addressing their argument.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: So someone's making some points and maybe making good points,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the opponent might say, yeah, well I'm better looking than you,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: and that would be an ad hominem because that's you're
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: not even talking about the argument. You're just attacking them
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: as a person, like there's something I don't like about you.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: You're too old, you laugh too much, your skin is
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: too dark, whatever, and so it sort of attempts to
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: discredit your opponent. I guess, but you're just attacking them,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: not their arguments. So let's call an ad hominem logical fallacy.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: There's also strawbian argument. This is presenting an argument that
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: the opposing side is not actually making and then attacking
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: that argument. So let's say one person argues that there
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: should be regulations on health supplements and their opponent says,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: you think we should take away people's right to make
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: medical choices for themselves. This is not the argument the
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: first person was making. But now that becomes a subject
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: of the discussion, and the person that was originally talking
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: now has to backtrack to try to go ooh, that's
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: not what I'm saying, and the other person is already
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: moving ahead and just moving quickly and steamrolling them.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Yeah, it is just is reframing an argument
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: that someone is not actually making as their argument. We
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: actually saw this a lot when we were doing our
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: research for the Electoral College episodes. The people who are
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: in favor of supporting the electoral College would often use
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: strawman arguments to try and fight against the other side
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: and also like employ tactics that were like based on
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: nothing anyway, not with relitigating that. The next one to
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: talk about here is called the red herring. This is
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: also basically the same as what about ism. I think
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: some people would separate them, but they're very very similar,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: so we're going to group them together here. And a
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: red herring is if people are familiar with this, this
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: is a term that gets used periodically, but it's using
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a misleading question or argument to distract away from the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: actual argument. It's a distraction, is basically the best way
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: to put it. It's a way to try and literally
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: mislead people away from whatever other thing you don't want
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: them to pay attention to. Is so when some when
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: one person says something such as, quote talking about joy
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: is inappropriate when there are so many terrible things going
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: on in the world end quote, don't know why I
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: about that one. We can both try to promote optimism,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: enjoy and acknowledge that there are terrible things going on
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: in the world, Like just because they're terrible things is
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: going on in the world doesn't mean we can't also
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: sometimes have joy. Like people will lose important members of
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: their family and then one day again, they'll still still
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: experience smiling and happiness, and even though that it ruined
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: their lives, generally, like moment to moment, they will have
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: fleeting instances of this. So like, we can do both
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: of those things at the same time, right.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Or when someone challenges a candidate by saying something like,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: you've been accused and convicted of corruption, how would you
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: address that or how do you address that with your voters,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: and the candidate responds with, we'll address all instances of
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: corruption and our government and I have a plan to
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: create more jobs and eliminate illegal immigration. The respons doesn't
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: follow from the original question, so it doesn't really answer anything.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: It's my mom just said this the other day, which
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: is basically like you just said a whole lot of nothing. Yeah,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Like it didn't answer the question. It didn't do anything.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: It's like when you go to a restaurant and you're like,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: we've been on the list for a long time, how
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: long is the wait and the person says, oh, we've
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: got a little bit of way. It shouldn't be too long. Now, Yeah,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: that's not an answer.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: That's true, but it would be more of an example
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: of a red herring if they were if they said
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: something to the effect of have you noticed how nice
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: the weather is for outside today? Or I don't know
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: that a good y?
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it'd be like what about it is? It
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: would be like, oh, yeah, I know you're waiting. What
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: about all these other people who are waiting?
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, It's like, okay, they are
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: waiting and I'm still waiting.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you didn't answer my question.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: And my question really was just how much longer am
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: I going to be waiting?
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: This is another super common tactic. I hear a lot
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: in political discourse. That's a lot of the what about
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: ism and the redirectings like this is a question I
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: don't want to answer, so instead I'm going to answer
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: this other one. Now, most savvy politicians this is totally
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: in aside, but most savvy politicians, when they get like
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the sort of the question where they don't want to
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: have to answer the question, they'll sort of they'll shift
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: the conversation to something that they do want to talk about,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: just as you said, like, oh, what I'm gonna do
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: is create more jobs, like okay, yeah, but the corruption though,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: What's really interesting is how there's been a handful of
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: politicians lately who you'll ask that they'll get asked like
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: a softball question with an easy answer to make them
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: look good, and installed they'll go in this weird, ranty
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: tirade about something completely unrelated that makes them look petty
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: and stupid. And yeah, that has definitely been a thing
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: that's been going on.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I've seen a few where somebody will like they'll just
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: outright say what about this? Like, you know, somebody will
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: talk about, you know, universal health care, and somebody another
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: politician will just say something like, well, what about Venezuela.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, what about Venezuela. We're the United Like
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: we're talking about United States healthcare. We're not talking about
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Venezuelan healthcare. We're not politicians. Like I've seen that come
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: up and you're like, wow, what a what a turn?
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Like is wild to just throw that just like have
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: that in your back pocket and be like what about this?
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Like it's almost like a cards against humanity, but like
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: for political debates.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fair, So so that's another common There are many,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: many logical fallacies that are worth spending some time on
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: and diving into examples and why they're bad, why they're
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: bad arguments, and how to avoid making them, and how
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: to recognize when you're being tricked by them because people
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: do depend on these, and again they're not actually acting
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: in good faith, they're just trying to manipulate the situation.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: So an aspect of this conversation I was thinking about
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: when putting this together was considering, I think the people
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: who are have been the victims of this a lot,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: and then also considering how this shows up in politics,
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: how it shows up in medicine, how it shows up
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: in conspiracy theories, that sort of thing. But there's another
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: aspect of this, which is there are a lot of
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: people who think they're doing critical thinking who are definitely not,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: who have sort of tricked themselves. So there's some kind
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: of pitfalls that we're going to go over really quickly
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: to help you avoid making the mistake of sort of
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: trapping yourself in to a non critical thinking sphere that
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: we're going to trap you in some ads. All right,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the pitfalls to avoid to
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: make sure you're not believing you're doing critical thinking when
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: you actually are not.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: It's really easy to feel like you are doing the
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: work to learn about something when all you are actually
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: trying to do is find more people and sources that
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: agree with your predisposed opinions. So basically, like it's when
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: you say I'm doing the research, but all you do
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: is look up Breitbart and Fox News and you're like,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: that's actually not research, first and foremost, But second of all,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: you're not ever reading any sort of other opinions or
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: other things out there, or just.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Like actual science exactly you know, read that exactly. Yes,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: it is the it is the tendency to just look
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: for things that you already agree with. It's easy to do, man,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: it's complicated because when you're right, most things that you
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: find agree with you, and when you're wrong, it's easy
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: to find things that do agree with you even though
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: they are wrong. And so it's again there's an aspect
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: of this evaluating the quality of the evidence, what's their agenda?
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Ask yourself, could you be wrong? How could you be wrong?
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: All of those things that that's again how you sort
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: of help get around this. But there are a lot
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: of people who think that they're in the know because
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: they read a bunch of stuff and think that now
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: they've got all this secret information that most people don't have. Right,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: And again, like that does happen sometimes, Like there legitimately
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: are instances where people have more information than other people have.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: But I think it's really easy to fall into the
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: trap of believing that you have some something that most
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: people don't have and then not actually questioning that and
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: not actually considering that you might be wrong and that
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: you might be being misled by somebody. Right, So it's
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: it's really easy to believe that you are thinking critically
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: because you're accepting fringe beliefs that are touted as being
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: the truth. And part of what they do when they're
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: trying to capture people like this is they're gonna tell
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: you you're really smart. They're like, only you know, only
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: the few handful of really smart people you know accept
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: and know that this is the truth because everyone else
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: is so dumb. And people do have the tendency to
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: estimate themselves as being above average on everything, and so
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: they're gonna resonate with that. They're gonna hear this and say,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: I am smart. I'm one of those smart people who
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: can hear this and believe it. And the people who
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: are like trying to manipulate you, like they don't actually
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: think you're smart, right, Actually they probably think you're not specifically,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: but they know that they can manipulate you. But it's
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: easy to fall into that trap of being told that
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: you're smart and that like only a handful of people
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: know the truth and you're one of those lucky few.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: And when you're reading that on like a conspiracy theory website,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: then like that's a good red flag that you've gone
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: the wrong way.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, So, like what they'll do is they'll tell
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: you you're smart for believing them, and then even smarter
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: than everyone else who doesn't. And they'll tell you that
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: they have information that others don't. They don't want you
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: to have because they don't want you to know the truth.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: They will lie so much that it makes you question
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: the truth. They will flood the conversational arena so much
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: with so much information that people think that they can't
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: trust any sources. Their only goal is to show chaos,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: to dismantle the institutions that have developed in the current status,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: to squeeze money or loyalty out of people, to do
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: their dirty work for them. This is one of the
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: things that leads to cults.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And I mean it's difficult because again, nuance,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: there's so much nuance here. There are governments in the
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: world that have taken on a misinformation campaigns to try
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: and convince their citizens to believe only what the government
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: tells them. Those are established institutions with a lot of clout,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of authority, and potentially a lot of reason
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: to believe that they're telling you the truth. Right, they're
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: definitely lying. There are other governments and institutions in the
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: world that have worked really hard to try and dispel
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: myth and try and portray facts, and have made mistakes
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: and then admitted to those mistakes and then try to
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: correct those mistakes. But all people heard was I made
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: a mistake. So there's a lot of these elements of
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: things where it's like, it is true that sometimes big,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: massive institutions lie, like some of these governments that are
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: trying to convince their people of certain things. I think
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: it's generally reasonable to assume that a lot of the
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: time the government lies about some things. But how much
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: and to what extent and exactly what that lie consists
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: of is going to vary a lot. Like using a
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: sharpie to draw on a map of where a hurricane
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: is going to go without consulting meteorological experts is a
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: very stupid lie that's demonstrably false and could get a
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: lot of people hurt, versus something like misleading people about
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: how good or bad something is going in the general
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: trends of the country or whatever. Right, So anyway, those
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: are I think some consideration here is that, like, there
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: are people who all they want to do is they
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: want to sow chaos because if everything sort of crumbles down,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: then they can seize power and resources and money, and
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: they can carve out a little niche for themselves, potentially
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: a large niche for themselves, where then they can be
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: sort of self secure. Right, It's just one of the
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: strategies people have employed, but it is one that that's
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: out there. And then there are people who just like
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: they know that they can manipulate people better if they
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: get people to just distrust everyone, and then they come
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: forward with confidence, with money, with resources, with promises, and
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: so while everyone else is in chaos, they show up
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: as a shining beacon of hope even though they're the
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: ones that started that chaos, so that by contrast, they
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: can look like confident, shining beacons of hope, right, And
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: like those people are out there too. So it's tough,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Like we live in a world where people are trying
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: to mislead one another, and the best tool we can
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: have is to try and employ our critical thinking strategies
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: against this so that we can weigh and evaluate the
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: evidence we receive and judge it on those merits like right,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we think of like big giant companies, like
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: oil companies who have who knew about the climate crisis
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: for decades in advance of that being like widely accepted
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: public knowledge, and they bury that information and light about
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: it and then engaged in misinformation campaigns to try and
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: get people to not believe it.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: And so that's one of those entities where it's like,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: this is a major established institution that has a lot
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: of data about this and is saying this thing, and
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: the truth is like that they're that they are trying
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: to mislead you. And so again it's it's complicated, but
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: there's it's always worth being on the defensive to try
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and avoid being hoodwinked by people who are who are
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: trying to get you. And so again critical thinking is
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: our best, our best tool against this, I think.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: So ultimately, I think the point that we kind of
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: land on is being a critical thinker means being open
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: minded but also being skeptical. So you want to learn stuff,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: but you also have to question the resources. Being closed
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: minded is being unwilling to accept evidence that challenges your
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: belief And I always think of a friend of mine
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: who who said this at a show. One time, we
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: were playing a show and he was the singer of
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: a band, and he said, every now and again, you
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: should challenge your beliefs to see if they still hold water. Yeah,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: like you should question what you think to see if
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: it still holds water. And the truth is because things change,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: science changes. Like I mean the fact that we've got
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of people here who grew up with nine
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: planets in the Solar System. You learned that we really
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: only have eight major planets and five dwarf planets. It
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: blows your mind. So you have to be careful with like,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: you have to be open minded and be prepared to
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: learn new information and to seek resources and do all
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: that thing and be able to evaluate those resources in
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: a really meaningful.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Way, and just saying that you are without actually doing
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: that and actively pushing the alternative agenda. RFK is not
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: being an actual skeptical critical thinker, So right, just keep
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: that in mind as well. Yes, a point that I
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about, Like, there was someone who was
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: interviewing some people at let's just say a rally, and
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: that person was lamenting, like, how come all these all
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: these people go to college? He's like, all the people
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: I know that went to college are voting for this candidate,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: and the people who didn't go to college are voting
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: for this candidate. And you feel like you know where
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: the next logical step of that argument would go. And instead,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: what this person said was makes you wonder what they're
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: teaching at those colleges or teaching them to be woke. Yeah,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, mostly mostly what you're learning is critical thinking,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: and critical thinking just does not facilitate certain ways of
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: thinking about things, right, But way to say the quiet
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: part out loud? I guess at least part of it.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: You almost got there.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: You were so close.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you started to see the light and then you're like, no,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: cover the eyes, darkness.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: Nope, yeah, nope, yep, That's one of my favorite conspiracy
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: theories is that colleges indoctrinate liberals.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they actively push to only teach like a
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: conservative curriculum. And I'm like, who's who's got the agenda? Now, Like,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Right?
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: That's the whole thing.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's what we have to say about critical thinking.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: I hope that you found some tools in here that
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: will help you be a better critical thinker out in
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: the world. Evaluate that evidence. And to be clear, I
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: know we poked a lot of fun at like sort
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: of the conservative politics. People on both sides of the
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: spectrum do all of this a lot, and it annoys
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: me greatly. Yeah, I criticize the ever loving crap out
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: of all of them when they do things that are
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: not being that are not good critical thinking arguments, and
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: they make logical fallacies and they do what aboutisms. Both
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: of them do it, and both of them are wrong
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: when they do it.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: It just so happens to be that there are certain
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: people who do this substantially more by orders and orders
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: of magnitude. Right, they're more easy examples to point to
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: you because there's so many of them. So this is
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: not meant really to be a directly political conversation. We
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: are on the side of science and critical king, I
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: guess is the way to say it. Yes, and that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: just happens to be in direct contrast with some with
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: some political platforms more than others.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: That's completely fair. I like that.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's go ahead and wrap it up there.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to tell us what you think about
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: critical thinking or how we've improved your critical thinking repertoire,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: you can email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: You can also reach us on all the social media
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: social media platforms. I can say words and speak to
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: us there. If you would like to support what we
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: are doing here, you can join us over on Patreon,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: where you'll get some access to bonus materials and early
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: episodes and ad free episodes and that sort of thing.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: You can always pick up some merch leave us a
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: rating and review, like subscribe, share this on social media
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: or however you want to share it. Hand your phone
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: to a friend and say listen to this. That could
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: work too.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: If you do join us over on Patreon, we have
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: a list of people that we always need to take
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: the time to thank for their continued and ongoing support,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: and that is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Ashley Kure, and Michelle. Thank you all so much.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Yay, we love y' all.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: In addition, I have my team of people who helps
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: make this podcast happen, writing in fact checking from Shane
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: and myself. Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: the guy in the chair who does all the sound
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: editing goodness is justin thank you.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: For all of that you do. Yay, we love you too.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and of course thank you all for listening.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: Now it sounds like we're at the end, but we're
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: actually not because we're going to recommend some things.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: And we love recommending things. Recommendations, all right, So I
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: am recommending a movie. I am such a huge fan
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: of these movies, and it's just because I have a
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: hard time disliking giant robots fighting each other. So the
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: movie I'm gonna recommend is Transformer's Rise of the Beasts
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: because I think that it's done a good job of
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: kind of expanding the lore of the Transformers world, even
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: though it's a pre well to like can of the
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: original Transformers movies. Okay, it takes place in nineteen ninety four,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: and it's got all of your favorites in it, and
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: it's a lot of fun. And it also has the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: Beast Wars Transformers in it, so it's got optimists, Primal
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: and Cheetur and Ryan Knox and all of them. Sure,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just one of those things where
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: it's just it's just a fun movie. Like it's just like,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: if you go into it with very low expectations, you're
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: going to have a blast. If you go into it
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: expecting some high art form, you're going to be so disappointed.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: So don't do that. Go into it under with the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: understanding that it is just giant robots, giant alien robots
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: fighting each other on planet Earth and sometimes humans show up.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Is the turn the brain off recommendation?
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Just yeah, just have fun with it. Don't suppress your joy.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: Just enjoy it. It's so fun.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, Okay, I'm recommending a movie that came out
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: a while back. I'm I haven't been able to get
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: to the as much these days, and so this one
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: finally came available on streaming and it is Mission and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Possible Dead Reckoning Part one. This is the god knows
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: whatever installment of this franchise nine or ten or a hundred.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Who knows eight, it's the eighth one.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, thank you. I was close to my very
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: first guess.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: You were so close. I mean, there's so many, there.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Are so many, and this is obviously part one, the
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: first time they've done that in this entire series. Is
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: doing a two parter and I don't know, I just
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: these movies are so good. I just like them so much.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're basically just hardcore, NonStop action. That's it
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: is just supposed to be keeping you on the edge
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: of the seat, on the edge of your seat, excited
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: about what's going to happen, how are they going to
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: get out of this situation type stuff. And they do
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of practical action as well. They have sort
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: of been constantly pushing the heights of how far they
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: would make Tom Cruise fall off of things. I think
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: they reached a pinnacle of that in the previous movie,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: and so they brought it down a little bit lower
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: this time, although arguably more dangerous. Yeah, so a lot
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: of stunts, but it's just they're just they're just good
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: action movies, you know, they're just they're good. They're just good.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: They're very entertaining, like they're good action spy movies for sure.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's all I really want
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: out of it. So, okay, so you recommended Transformers, Rise
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: of the Beasts. I'm recommending Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning Part one,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: which I believe is streaming on Amazon. Do you know
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: if Rise the Beast is available somewhere?
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: It's somewhere, but we bought it.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, gotcha? All right, that might be available to
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: stream somewhere or rent or purchase or whatever. So you
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: do you anyway? I think that is all that we
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: have to say. Thank you again for listening. Thank you
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: for recording with me today, Shane. Is there anything that
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: I missed or that you would like to add before
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: we say our goodbyes?
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Not today? All right?
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Then go think critically. This is Abraham, this is Shane.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Bye. You've been listening to Why We Do what We Do.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: going to w w D ww D podcast dot com.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.