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Do You Want to Be a Tradwife? The Agony and Ecstasy of Total Dependency · Other Peoples Parenting

• 0:00
  Hello, everybody.
• 0:01
  Welcome back to another episode of Other people's Parenting, where we read parenting books and review them for you.
• 0:07
  I'm Skylar Hurwitz, amateur parent, and this is my mom, Karen Quinn, New York Times best selling author and founder of Habit Coach and Testing Mom.
• 0:17
  Hello, mom.
• 0:19
  Hello, Skyler.
• 0:20
  You're.
• 0:21
  You're already cracking me up.
• 0:22
  And we just got started.
• 0:23
  Well, actually, we didn't just get started because this is take five.
• 0:27
  We are back.
• 0:30
  We are back in our home studio trying desperately to be audio engineers, to be podcasters, to be women.
• 0:41
  Okay, in this episode, we're going to talk to you about a particular kind of women who can do it all, unlike us, who struggle.
• 0:52
  We struggle to be engineers.
• 0:53
  What can I say?
• 0:54
  You know, listen, we can't all be everything, but you know, who can be everything according to the Internet, which we're.
• 1:00
  Going to talk about today.
• 1:02
  Tradwives.
• 1:03
  And you might be wondering, okay, guys, what do tradwives have to do with parenting?
• 1:09
  Let me tell you, quite a lot, because they have so many kids, some of them anyway, we.
• 1:20
  There's been so much going on in the discourse surrounding tradwives and like all of the sort of competing ideas of what a tradwife truly is.
• 1:31
  And we were like, you know what, why don't we just cover this?
• 1:34
  Because trad wives are moms too, right?
• 1:37
  Well, yeah, for sure they're moms.
• 1:40
  And we're gonna be reading a book called yesteryear that's about trad wives.
• 1:45
  And that's kind of what got us talking about it and thinking about it.
• 1:49
  Because I did not know a lot about what tradwives were.
• 1:54
  I had to ask you and you upped it.
• 1:56
  You told me so, you know, I.
• 1:58
  I'm like, okay, this is a thing.
• 2:00
  Well, I want to know more about it.
• 2:02
  So we decided to explore everything about trad wives.
• 2:06
  Yes, that's what this is today.
• 2:08
  It's actually articles, several articles about trad wives.
• 2:11
  You might be familiar with our article format where we come up with a topic and then we just like read a couple articles about it.
• 2:19
  Because you know what?
• 2:21
  Not every week can be a book.
• 2:23
  You guys.
• 2:23
  You know how hard it is to read hundreds and hundreds of pages every sing week.
• 2:30
  We do our best.
• 2:31
  Obviously every season is mostly books, but there are going to be a couple article episodes sprinkled on and about this season, next season, last season.
• 2:43
  You get what it is.
• 2:44
  Okay, so we're talking tradwise today.
• 2:46
  Yes.
• 2:47
  Okay.
• 2:47
  And our tell about what the first article is.
• 2:49
  Okay, so if you are at all familiar with the tradwife discourse.
• 2:53
  You might know who Hannah Nealman is, better known as Ballerina Farm.
• 2:59
  Hannah Nealman, fascinating person.
• 3:02
  She is a mom of now as of today, nine children.
• 3:07
  She is.
• 3:07
  She has nine children.
• 3:08
  Nine.
• 3:09
  Yeah, she just had another baby.
• 3:11
  Wow.
• 3:11
  Yeah, she did recently.
• 3:13
  So she's got nine children, ages 12 to I guess just born.
• 3:19
  And she is a Juilliard trained ballerina and she married the heir to, I believe, the JetBlue fortune.
• 3:30
  Now bear in mind, she.
• 3:33
  It's sort of like an interesting trajectory that they have gone on.
• 3:37
  Obviously they met, I guess in New York in a cosmopolitan place and they now have this farm in Utah and all this land they produce.
• 3:48
  They don't.
• 3:49
  I think maybe they produce beef.
• 3:50
  I don't know if they produce beef for sale, but I personally am a big fan of a lot of their products.
• 3:55
  They.
• 3:55
  They incorporate bone broth into pretty much everything.
• 3:59
  They have a hydrating powder that they sell.
• 4:03
  At one point they were selling raw milk, but I guess they had to stop that because something bad was going on.
• 4:09
  Obviously if you're selling unpasteurized milk, that's a very high risk endeavor.
• 4:14
  And basically he didn't grow up on a farm.
• 4:20
  He is from Connecticut and neither did she.
• 4:23
  But he always had this idea, her husband, of this grand life.
• 4:28
  Not quite as a homesteader necessarily, but this really traditional life.
• 4:33
  And I guess he met Neilman who at the time was again training at Juilliard to be a ballerina.
• 4:38
  So you sort of ask yourself, like, how did she end up in this situation where now she is a mother of nine kids and she is a social media darling.
• 4:50
  There were a couple articles that came out about her in the last year or so because she is notoriously private.
• 4:57
  She posts a lot online, but she doesn't do interviews typically.
• 5:01
  And this journalist came right from the London Times.
• 5:05
  Yeah, the Times of London.
• 5:07
  The Times of London.
• 5:08
  Two different articles that they wrote.
• 5:10
  Yes.
• 5:10
  The first one was sort of to be an exploration of her and her life.
• 5:15
  And you know, the author was struck by a number of things that led to some conclusions that I personally disagree with.
• 5:25
  But some of the conclusions were that Neil Min was sort of under her husband's theory thumb.
• 5:32
  Their life is centered around faith, it seems, which is a common theme among the tradwives that I am familiar with.
• 5:42
  There is a lot of Christian ideology behind their life choices, having a lot of children and the kind of education they give their kids.
• 5:53
  And basically, in her case anyway, tradwife is sort of a misnomer, right?
• 6:00
  When you think of a trad wife, you think of a woman who is home raising children in the house, doesn't work, doesn't produce income for their family.
• 6:09
  But Neilman has built a multi million dollar business off of this social media and her farm and her products.
• 6:18
  So the question is, you know, a lot of these trad wives are shilling something.
• 6:25
  Are they actually trad wives?
• 6:27
  Are they, you know, women with businesses?
• 6:32
  Is that okay to be both at once?
• 6:35
  Or are they two contradictory ideologies?
• 6:38
  And then how does this impact the way they raise their children?
• 6:42
  Well, let me interject for a second because, see, I'm trying to figure this out too, and those are some of my questions, like, is there such a thing as a trad wife who just stays home and raises kids
• 6:53
  and things are just as beautiful in their life as they are in the pictures in.
• 7:01
  What's her name?
• 7:02
  Hannah.
• 7:02
  Hannah Neelman Neilman.
• 7:04
  I keep quantity.
• 7:05
  You can call her Ballerina Farm.
• 7:06
  Everybody calls her Ballerina Farm.
• 7:08
  Okay?
• 7:09
  So, you know, I mean, her life, the way she presents it is really beautiful.
• 7:13
  I mean, it looks like pictures out of a magazine or a, or a, maybe a catalog or something.
• 7:18
  They're just gorgeous.
• 7:19
  And her kids are gorgeous and she's gorgeous.
• 7:21
  And you know, their lifestyle is just, you know, you just like, oh, everybody just kind of like goes gaga over it.
• 7:29
  But is that how other tradwives live who aren't selling their life online?
• 7:36
  And the definition of trad wife that they gave in this article was, they say tradwives are an Internet phenomenon.
• 7:43
  Women who have rejected modern gender roles for the more traditional existence of wife, mother and homemaker, and who then promote the life online sometimes to millions of followers.
• 7:55
  And their lifestyle is often bound to Christianity.
• 7:58
  And they cook things from scratch.
• 8:01
  And their children are beautiful and you know, their voices are soft and breathy and they make bread and you know, they.
• 8:11
  But it's all sold online.
• 8:14
  So I don't know if there's such a thing as a trad wife who isn't online.
• 8:19
  There are women who stay home with their kids, but they're not necessarily trad wife.
• 8:24
  Well, I think that there are three categories.
• 8:26
  Race.
• 8:26
  There's tradwives of the Internet who for the most part are selling some kind of wear or lifestyle or again, even views on YouTube produce.
• 8:35
  They generate money.
• 8:36
  Right, Right.
• 8:37
  So I think many are specifically LDs.
• 8:42
  And I, again, I have spoken about this at length, but I am obsessed with LDS and the Mormon wives and sort of the, the way that their communities are centered around the patriarchy and this idea that the man
• 8:58
  is in charge and that women sort of serve at their pleasure, and that's just generally how things are designed and how it's now being turned on its head in many ways.
• 9:10
  And I imagine that this impacts their children.
• 9:13
  I think, you know, probably for the first time in many years in some of these communities, particularly little girls are seeing their moms have more of a voice and more control in the relationship than probably ever before.
• 9:30
  Because an unfortunate truth about money is that he who makes the money controls the purse strings.
• 9:38
  So even in these scenarios where, you know, typically they are taught that the husband is in charge and everyone is to do what he says, if the wife is out earning the husband, in many cases, whether it is
• 9:52
  intentional or not, she then probably feels more empowered and perhaps she does not love the way things had been going previously and wants to make some changes.
• 10:04
  What's interesting to me about the first article we read about Hannah Nealman is it.
• 10:08
  It felt to me like the author was coming at it from a very judgmental perspective.
• 10:15
  She discusses a couple things, like how I just remember how Hannah Nealman seems like the superwoman, but mentions that sometimes she takes to her bed for days at a time.
• 10:27
  Or, you know, they talk about how for most of her deliveries of her children, she did it naturally, so no epidural, and how she was kind of secretly excited that for one of her deliveries she did it, you
• 10:41
  know, with an epidural, because her husband wasn't there yet.
• 10:45
  So you thought that the author of the article came in with an agenda and had a point of view and was trying to kind of take her down.
• 10:55
  Right?
• 10:55
  Is that kind of what you thought?
• 10:56
  See, I guess I didn't really think that.
• 10:58
  I just thought, you know, because a journalist isn't going to come at it without asking some hard hitting questions, you know, and do a fluff piece on how beautiful her life is.
• 11:09
  And that is not what she did.
• 11:11
  I mean, but she did talk about how.
• 11:13
  How beautiful the farm was and how beautiful she was and the children, they were.
• 11:19
  You know, she.
• 11:19
  She'd said a lot of nice things about them and.
• 11:22
  But at the same time she was a little bit critical.
• 11:26
  She sort of felt like her husband was trying to upstage the wife a little bit and, and how kind of nutty and crazy it was that she had given birth and then 10 days later participated in a Miss
• 11:44
  World competition in Las Vegas.
• 11:48
  Which I do think that is a little nutty.
• 11:50
  I mean, I'm sorry, but I don't think she was 10 days later.
• 11:54
  I don't think she was forced to do it.
• 11:55
  I know she wasn't forced to do it, but I'm sure.
• 11:58
  But it just maybe, I don't know, it just maybe she was trying to show how strong, I guess.
• 12:05
  Well, that's, that's one hook for winning the competition.
• 12:08
  Although she did not win the competition.
• 12:10
  You know, she participated.
• 12:12
  She participated, which is pretty, pretty amazing.
• 12:16
  Yes, I agree.
• 12:18
  And she did come out.
• 12:19
  The author said, you know, this woman lives a life of contradictions in that their children are not allowed on screens, but they're reality TV characters for millions of people.
• 12:30
  And she's a stay at home mom who made a career out of, you know, made a very, a good career where she's making millions of dollars out of being a stay at home mom.
• 12:42
  So the whole idea is just contradictory.
• 12:44
  Well, I think, yeah, she was critical.
• 12:47
  She was critical.
• 12:48
  Yeah.
• 12:48
  The idea of a stay at home mom has evolved with social media because now anybody can be a star no matter what they do, so long as they are captivating in whatever it is that they're doing.
• 12:59
  So I think, you know, she obviously takes it to like the inside degree.
• 13:04
  You know, she's.
• 13:04
  She has this farm, a huge farm, which I think in our day and age it is interesting because it is so that life is not often portrayed for consumption.
• 13:18
  It's now, it's becoming more popular, I think in part because of her.
• 13:21
  There's a new Bravo show called the McBees and it's all about a ranch and obviously the Yellowstone effect of everything.
• 13:27
  And Taylor Sheridan and all of his whole universe.
• 13:30
  I think people are, I think it indicates a kind of nostalgia that everyone is sort of experiencing because our country is in such turmoil where it's like there's a part of us that all just wants to go back
• 13:42
  to a simpler time.
• 13:43
  But the reality is it was not really a simpler time.
• 13:48
  It was a much harder time in so many respects.
• 13:52
  It was, it was.
• 13:53
  But when you are able to take such beautiful pictures of living that kind of life that doesn't show the hardship of living the kind of pioneer ish life style.
• 14:07
  You know, I guess people do feel, you're right, they feel nostalgic.
• 14:12
  They want to live in a simpler time when mom stayed home with the kids and dad went off to work, like the 50s or, or, you know, the olden days.
• 14:25
  There, there is a lot of nostalgia, I guess that's true.
• 14:28
  But nostalgia for what?
• 14:30
  I don't know.
• 14:31
  But you know, but I also think it's kind of Interesting, because she's a woman with eight kids in when this article came out now.
• 14:38
  Nine kids.
• 14:39
  Yeah.
• 14:39
  Well, because I think the people that this article is speaking to is all of, you know, these modern empowered women.
• 14:48
  And I think that the angle is to try and make her seem unempowered.
• 14:52
  But as somebody who has followed her for a long time, it really, truly seems to me like she has chosen this life and lifestyle and that what she's really doing is like, listen, I, this is what I like
• 15:04
  to do.
• 15:05
  I'm showing it on social media and it actually can be as simple as that.
• 15:09
  That said, I don't, I, I think that like, of course, any woman who is just sort of acquiescing to whatever her husband seems to want to do, I am not in favor of that.
• 15:22
  I think she needs to be able to make her own choices.
• 15:24
  But I think the author of this article is trying to make it seem as if she's not right.
• 15:29
  I think that kind of might have been a bit of her point of view.
• 15:33
  But she's a journalist and they're always going to come in with a point of view and they're going to be a little bit, they're going to be.
• 15:42
  They're going to search for evidence.
• 15:43
  They are, they're going to try to show that it's not all as good as it seems.
• 15:48
  It's beautiful online, but in reality the husband's calling the shots.
• 15:54
  And you know, they ask the kids things like, well, do you watch TV or.
• 15:59
  And they don't have any screens.
• 16:03
  They, they are allowed to watch a little bit of TV on a computer, but it's all Little House on the Prairie.
• 16:09
  They don't have phones or anything like that.
• 16:13
  And she talks about the fact that, you know, they, they have a cleaner but no child care.
• 16:19
  But the author kind of says, but of course they have child care.
• 16:23
  And you know, making that into a controversy.
• 16:25
  Yeah.
• 16:26
  And it's like, honestly, who cares, right?
• 16:28
  She has nine children.
• 16:30
  Do you truly believe any woman in the year of our Lord 2026 with nine children is doing it completely alone?
• 16:39
  No, I don't.
• 16:40
  That's absurd.
• 16:41
  No way.
• 16:42
  I have one child.
• 16:43
  One child.
• 16:44
  And I have so much support.
• 16:46
  Nobody that we pay to take care of the baby.
• 16:49
  But if I didn't have you and my in laws around, I mean, I, I just, I would drown.
• 16:54
  Right, Right.
• 16:55
  No, no.
• 16:56
  So, yeah, so that she's trying to make this into, you know, she's trying to show, you know, what this lifestyle is like, but with a lot of Criticism or quite a bit of criticism.
• 17:08
  So.
• 17:08
  Yes.
• 17:09
  And also when it was pointed out by all of the critics of this article that, oh, you are a single woman with no children.
• 17:17
  Of.
• 17:17
  Of course you think this is an oppressive reality.
• 17:20
  Of course you think that, like, it's ridiculous that you can't speak to her alone.
• 17:25
  And to that I say, can you imagine living in a house with 10 other people?
• 17:31
  Of course you're never going to be able to be alone.
• 17:35
  Well, that's.
• 17:35
  I, that's true.
• 17:36
  That is true.
• 17:37
  Logistically, that sounds difficult.
• 17:40
  And to turn it into a point of like, well, see, he doesn't ever let her speak for herself.
• 17:46
  It's like, I don't know, girl.
• 17:47
  I think you just didn't include a lot of the things she said and you chose to focus on the fact that her husband is a bit of.
• 17:54
  A ham and he sounded a little overbearing.
• 17:57
  Like he was sure, you know.
• 17:59
  But, you know, I don't know.
• 18:00
  I don't know.
• 18:01
  I mean, I think the idea is that, that she represents a lifestyle, a trad life lifestyle that takes place online.
• 18:11
  That's.
• 18:12
  That's something many women either aspire to or en looking at pictures of because it's a little bit of an escape, you know, I don't know that it's something we should all get so exercised about.
• 18:25
  That's exercise.
• 18:27
  Exorcised.
• 18:28
  I mean, exercise.
• 18:29
  What's that?
• 18:29
  Not exercised.
• 18:31
  You know, exorcised.
• 18:33
  Yes, yes, I know what you mean.
• 18:34
  That's what I meant.
• 18:35
  I know what you mean.
• 18:36
  Right.
• 18:36
  Not exercise.
• 18:39
  I don't think we should all get upset.
• 18:41
  Yes.
• 18:41
  Because it's, you know, it's, it's that she made a choice fantasy that.
• 18:45
  Yeah.
• 18:46
  For many people like you, you love to, you love to follow her and you love to see her posts and her pictures.
• 18:54
  Yeah.
• 18:54
  I don't think you would actually want to live this way.
• 18:57
  No, I don't want to live on a farm with 10 children.
• 19:01
  No.
• 19:01
  But it's crazy.
• 19:03
  Watch.
• 19:03
  And it's, it's kind of very much like, you know, and I was, I was saying this earlier that as in my day, we had Kate plus eight and we, you know, and I think in, in there's always been
• 19:16
  shows about people who have lots of children.
• 19:18
  Octa, mom, Octomom, who had.
• 19:21
  What did she have?
• 19:21
  Like, she had eight.
• 19:22
  Well, she had like five at first and then she had eight more.
• 19:27
  People are just, they're, they're just so interested in that and they want to know more and they're, you Know, it's like, so we all want to.
• 19:35
  Want to know, how do you do it?
• 19:37
  And what.
• 19:37
  What's life like?
• 19:38
  And we all want to criticize her, and that's what happened to that.
• 19:41
  But because I think, again, the presumption is, if you had, As a woman, 10 children, it must be against your will.
• 19:48
  Well, yeah, it's like, who would do that today?
• 19:51
  I mean, who would in the olden days?
• 19:53
  Yes.
• 19:53
  But listen, you know, she's Mormon.
• 19:56
  She's Mormon.
• 19:57
  If you're on the fence about testing Mom, I would say 100%, it is the most worthwhile investment you can make in your child's education apart from sending them to school.
• 20:09
  It has so many resources, all of which, if you paid for them individually, would cost you much more money.
• 20:21
  There are tests for every single situation that your child may be presented with throughout the course of their academic career.
• 20:32
  And there's no investment that is too much to helping your child develop a love of learning.
• 20:41
  So I would say definitely, definitely go for it.
• 20:46
  It's the best money I've ever spent for my daughter's education.
• 20:50
  So in the olden days, they had so many kids because not everybody made it.
• 20:54
  So you had to have a lot of kids.
• 20:56
  Right.
• 20:56
  And there wasn't birth control.
• 20:58
  Yeah.
• 20:58
  And.
• 20:59
  And also, depending on what religion you are, that might have been, you know, part of your religion.
• 21:04
  That said, I think.
• 21:06
  I don't know if she's like a fundamentalist at all in whether it's Mormon, but I think she's Mormon.
• 21:11
  She's Mormon, but is she fundamentalist?
• 21:13
  There's a difference.
• 21:14
  Fundamentalism isn't great.
• 21:17
  No, it's not.
• 21:17
  Well, we don't think it's great.
• 21:19
  I certainly don't think it's great.
• 21:20
  I think most women think it's terrible.
• 21:23
  But, you know, it's funny.
• 21:26
  I remember once years ago when I worked at Big company and I had a woman working for me who went to a big school like Harvard, and she married a guy who was a very hasidic.
• 21:43
  And next thing you know, I mean, her life got pretty small, you know, in my eyes.
• 21:51
  In my eyes, I looked at it, it was like she was covering her hair and she was.
• 21:55
  You know, it was just like.
• 21:57
  It was very.
• 21:57
  To me, it looked like fundamentalism.
• 22:00
  Well, it's.
• 22:00
  But she was a very smart woman, and I was so surprised that she was willing to give up so much.
• 22:06
  But maybe.
• 22:07
  Okay, this is a bias we are now confronting of yours.
• 22:10
  Yes.
• 22:10
  In your mind.
• 22:12
  In my mind.
• 22:12
  Because she was so smart and had so much potential to accomplish things.
• 22:17
  Perhaps in the corporate world she was giving, sacrificing inherently by choosing a life of having a lot of kids and making that her focus.
• 22:25
  I think that that is the crux of this.
• 22:28
  Some women see that as a sacrifice and some people on the outside watching women like that see it as a sacrifice.
• 22:33
  Rights.
• 22:33
  Some women truly do choose that.
• 22:36
  And like again, everybody, choice, choice is the most important thing.
• 22:42
  Anybody who is pushed into a lifestyle like that I feel should have the freedom to leave.
• 22:47
  People who choose a lifestyle like that, I feel like they should have the freedom to do that without everybody getting exercised.
• 22:54
  Right.
• 22:55
  Okay, got it.
• 22:55
  Well, she, and, and, and I think that Hannah.
• 22:59
  Ballerina farms.
• 23:00
  Ballerina farms.
• 23:02
  She chose this, this is what she wants.
• 23:04
  And she seems very happy.
• 23:06
  They, I think she likes this life obviously.
• 23:09
  I mean she's, they're doing well, they're very successful.
• 23:13
  You know, she's famous, her husband's famous, they're making lots of money.
• 23:18
  She's not, I mean she's not really a trad wife or a, she's not really a stay at home wife because she's a working wife.
• 23:26
  Yes.
• 23:27
  And that's, I mean she has a farm, she's a farmer.
• 23:30
  Well, she's more than that.
• 23:31
  I mean they talked about the fact though that, that there, There are like 30 people working in their warehouse, 10 people in their office.
• 23:38
  They have a creative director, they have farm employees.
• 23:42
  I mean that's a corporation.
• 23:43
  They have an enterprise.
• 23:45
  She is like head of an enterprise.
• 23:47
  Yeah.
• 23:47
  So she's not, she's.
• 23:49
  Her enterprise is selling stay at home mom isms.
• 23:53
  Kind of.
• 23:54
  And that's kind of weird to me.
• 23:56
  Yeah, well, not literally.
• 23:57
  Literally she sells like, like food products and like candles shaped like berries.
• 24:02
  But she's selling her lifestyle, her mom of many kids living the old fashioned.
• 24:09
  You know what everybody's doing online?
• 24:12
  Huh?
• 24:12
  Isn't that what everybody's doing online?
• 24:14
  Yes, I do.
• 24:15
  That's the thing.
• 24:16
  Nobody is being honest online.
• 24:18
  I think liars, liars.
• 24:21
  None of these people, whatever they're selling, I mean all of us, when, when you think about it, we go online, we show the best pictures of ourselves, of our children, of our lives.
• 24:33
  I mean, and isn't that what she's doing?
• 24:35
  Yeah, girl.
• 24:36
  And, and she's making millions.
• 24:38
  So honestly, as far as I'm concerned, go off girl.
• 24:42
  Keep doing what you're doing.
• 24:44
  Right.
• 24:44
  Because at the end of the day, you know, I, I think again we're going to get into a couple other perspectives of this here I don't think she is disempowered and I think sort of what people are trying
• 24:56
  to foist upon her, it's as if they think she's disempowered, but she doesn't know.
• 25:01
  Right.
• 25:01
  And I just like, don't underestimate her again.
• 25:04
  She's a woman with an enterprise.
• 25:06
  How many of her haters are women with enterprises?
• 25:10
  No, she's, listen, she's been very successful and you know, more power to her.
• 25:15
  But I, and I, but I think that's why people like me get very confused about what a trad wife is.
• 25:22
  Because it's a misnomer.
• 25:23
  Yeah, it's.
• 25:24
  You're not really being a traditional wife if you're head of a big enterprise, even though what you are, you know, promoting is this lifestyle of staying at home with your kids and going back to the land.
• 25:36
  Well, technically, if your job is at your house and everybody lives at the house, you are in staying home in a sense.
• 25:43
  But it's not the old what people think of when you say I'm a stay at home mom.
• 25:49
  Exactly.
• 25:49
  And, and the interesting thing, I think the thing that got us to even look at this is because we're going to read and talk about yesteryear, which is about a trad wife.
• 25:59
  Our first fiction.
• 26:00
  That is our first fiction coming up.
• 26:02
  But that is modeled after this woman, Ballerina Farms.
• 26:06
  And of course the author claims.
• 26:08
  Well, of course she would think that.
• 26:09
  Girl, girl, don't play yourself.
• 26:13
  You have modeled this character so clearly after Ballerina Farm.
• 26:17
  And to pretend otherwise is frankly ludicrous.
• 26:19
  Right?
• 26:19
  Yeah.
• 26:20
  Does she say she.
• 26:21
  Well, she's like, oh, she's an amalgam of so many people.
• 26:24
  Probably because she doesn't want to get sued.
• 26:26
  That said, I don't think Hannah would care.
• 26:27
  Hannah is very busy with her 10 children and her enterprise to be worried about even a best selling book that purports to kind of take her down in a way.
• 26:38
  Yeah, I, I mean it's, it's, that's a whole, it's a very different story.
• 26:41
  Yeah.
• 26:42
  So.
• 26:42
  But it's very interesting to read about Ballerina Farms.
• 26:47
  And I think it's worth a read if you don't know a lot about it and you know, look and follow her and take a look at the lifestyle that she promotes.
• 26:55
  It's, it's certainly not the lifestyle I would live, but, but it's interesting.
• 27:00
  Yeah, people love it.
• 27:01
  I mean, she's got 9 million followers, maybe more by the time we release.
• 27:05
  I'm sure, I'm sure.
• 27:07
  Every day she accrues followers.
• 27:10
  Well, okay.
• 27:10
  And let's get into the next article because we've got a couple to cover.
• 27:14
  And this one is from the Atlantic, I believe.
• 27:19
  Oh, no, no, this is from New York magazine from the Cut.
• 27:22
  The confusing cut.
• 27:23
  The cut that I could never know.
• 27:24
  Why.
• 27:24
  Why is it called the cut when it's on New York magazine?
• 27:27
  But anyway, anyway, the article is called the Woman, the Women who Taught Me to be a Trad Wife.
• 27:35
  And it's by a woman got her name, Brit Tisdale.
• 27:41
  Hey, Brit.
• 27:42
  Brit.
• 27:43
  And she tells the story.
• 27:44
  She says over Bible study, donuts and disciplineship.
• 27:49
  Discipleship.
• 27:50
  Oh, I can't read.
• 27:56
  What is disciplineship?
• 27:59
  I was wondering what disciplineship was.
• 28:03
  That's so funny.
• 28:05
  Over Bible study, donuts and discipleship group tea, I learned the rules of submission.
• 28:11
  So this is a very different take on being a trad wife.
• 28:14
  This was a hard read.
• 28:15
  Yes, this was a hard read.
• 28:18
  As an empowered woman.
• 28:20
  It was.
• 28:20
  I felt for her.
• 28:22
  Right, right.
• 28:22
  This is.
• 28:23
  Okay, so the, the crux of the story is this is a woman who started in college.
• 28:28
  She was pre med, but she happened to fall in love with a guy who was going into ministry.
• 28:37
  Ministry, right.
• 28:37
  And he was going to be a pastor.
• 28:39
  And they fell in love and they ended up getting married.
• 28:42
  And instead of going into medicine, she became a pastor's wife.
• 28:46
  So he talks about.
• 28:47
  She talks about the fact that when you marry a pastor, you marry into their extended family, which is the church.
• 28:55
  And she would had a succession of female mentors called disciplers.
• 29:01
  Disciplers.
• 29:01
  Disciples.
• 29:02
  That's not discipliner.
• 29:03
  I know this isn't Handmaid's Tale.
• 29:05
  It felt like discipline.
• 29:06
  But anyway, okay, but disciplers.
• 29:08
  And their job was to teach her to become a godly Christian woman.
• 29:14
  And one of her disciplers was a woman named Cynthia and who she really admired and, and thought was great.
• 29:22
  And she was smart and dedicated and she ministered to women and taught her how to minister to women.
• 29:28
  And so they became friends.
• 29:30
  And her husband said, you can.
• 29:32
  You know, it was very hard for her to make friends in the community because her husband was the pastor.
• 29:37
  So nobody wanted to tell her stuff.
• 29:39
  But.
• 29:39
  But she was allowed to be open with.
• 29:42
  With Cynthia, according to her husband.
• 29:45
  Her husband said it was okay.
• 29:46
  So she was.
• 29:47
  And.
• 29:47
  And one day Cynthia asked her, well, do you know about my situation?
• 29:51
  And it turns out that the author did.
• 29:54
  The situation was that Cynthia's husband was abusing her physically and her husband had told her.
• 30:02
  The author's husband had Told her that this was happening.
• 30:05
  But he talked about it in very glowing terms.
• 30:09
  Terms.
• 30:10
  This killed me.
• 30:11
  Right.
• 30:12
  Speaking of Cynthia's long suffering and decision to stay with admiration, he praised her humble integrity.
• 30:20
  He exalted Cynthia like a martyr for enduring the abuse of her husband.
• 30:25
  I would like to point out this is the man's perspective in a community where it benefits only men that you are sort of allowed to treat women this way.
• 30:38
  And instead of someone intervening and saying this is abuse, this is bad, let's punish the man.
• 30:43
  It's like, no, no, let's admire the woman.
• 30:46
  Because women's strength is not in what they can exert, it is what they can tolerate.
• 30:52
  Yeah.
• 30:53
  And, and Cynthia said to her, well, you know, your husband is your spiritual leader and whatever he wants, you need to accommodate him.
• 31:00
  And she's kind of like, okay.
• 31:03
  But she did.
• 31:04
  And she said she tried to do everything.
• 31:07
  Cynthia told her she, she read.
• 31:09
  There were two hundred and forty books on her reading list.
• 31:11
  And one of them, for example, was something called his needs.
• 31:15
  Her needs building in a fairproof marriage.
• 31:18
  And they taught her things like behind every man should be an admiring wife.
• 31:24
  And there was a chapter titled he needs a good looking wife.
• 31:28
  Your physical attractiveness is very important to your husband.
• 31:31
  This is something he needs very badly.
• 31:35
  The idea, I guess, according to this community is like you exist to accommodate your husband.
• 31:42
  You exist as a prop, as a thing, and you serve at his pleasure.
• 31:48
  That's right.
• 31:48
  And she said, you know that she did everything, you know, she went to, to Sunday worship.
• 31:54
  Her whole life was built around the church.
• 31:56
  She had no outside interest.
• 31:58
  She did not work outside the home.
• 32:00
  Everyone who was her friend was a Christian that was in the church.
• 32:05
  There she learned the rules of submission.
• 32:07
  She said she learned never to shake hands too warmly with a man, as it might be considered flirtation.
• 32:14
  Never speak one to one to a man as you might be seducing him.
• 32:18
  This is another example again of, of women being taught and reinforced that you are responsible for the feeling and experience of men.
• 32:30
  And if they.
• 32:31
  This is a very dangerous precedent to set because if a man so much as alludes to you having done something wrong in this way, no one is going to hear out your perspective, whether it is accurate or not.
• 32:43
  They are going to presume that you are the harlot because all women are and they are not to be trusted.
• 32:50
  And this is all part of, you know, what she's being taught, which is make sure you maintain your body weight whatever of your husband's preference because you're There for his needs.
• 33:02
  It almost reminds me of, like, if a toddler could make a home constitution, it would say things like, and every day for breakfast, I can eat chocolate ice cream.
• 33:12
  That's amazing.
• 33:13
  And every day for lunch, I can eat cookies.
• 33:17
  And I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.
• 33:20
  And everyone in this house must bend to my will or else.
• 33:23
  Well, and that's what the.
• 33:25
  The man.
• 33:25
  That's what her husband, who's the pastor of the church, was making sure she was learning.
• 33:30
  And I assume maybe the.
• 33:32
  Cynthia certainly went along with it.
• 33:36
  Above all, the rule was you can never leave the church and you could never leave your husband.
• 33:42
  I'm sorry.
• 33:43
  Except for in cases of abandonment or adultery.
• 33:47
  So he either has to leave you or cheat on you.
• 33:49
  Cheat on you.
• 33:49
  That's the only way you can leave.
• 33:51
  You can't leave of your own volition.
• 33:53
  Regardless of physical abuse, sexual abuse, whatever else is going on, you are bound to your husband, and that is that.
• 34:01
  Well, and the author goes on and starts saying that her husband starts to abuse her.
• 34:06
  And.
• 34:07
  And the more he abused her, the harder she tried.
• 34:10
  She tried to be better,.
• 34:13
  And that breaks my heart.
• 34:14
  I know.
• 34:15
  And her soul was just shrinking.
• 34:18
  But she finally decides to leave him.
• 34:21
  But she called it a separation until reconciliation because she knew she couldn't leave.
• 34:26
  This is a survival mechanism.
• 34:28
  She understood that she had to make it seem as though she wasn't really leaving to get away from him.
• 34:34
  Well, I don't think she was sure she could leave.
• 34:37
  She felt she could not leave.
• 34:39
  And they did go to counseling.
• 34:41
  But she said in counseling, he would cry and repent in front of the counselor.
• 34:45
  But then as soon as they left, he would yell at her and threaten her and.
• 34:50
  And just was horrible to her.
• 34:51
  He was performing.
• 34:53
  Exactly.
• 34:54
  For others.
• 34:55
  And then when nobody was watching, the abuse resumed.
• 34:59
  Well, and eventually people complained about him, actually, in the church, and there was an investigation about his behavior and both towards his wife and towards, I guess, others.
• 35:10
  And he was fired and he was publicly defrocked.
• 35:14
  But even when he was defrocked, I guess that means they.
• 35:17
  They take away your ministry.
• 35:19
  Yeah.
• 35:19
  And I.
• 35:20
  Good.
• 35:20
  Yeah.
• 35:21
  And.
• 35:21
  And they said that while he was being fired, people still stood up and gave testimonials about his positive impact on their lives.
• 35:31
  A world designed by men.
• 35:33
  Four men.
• 35:34
  But anyway, so, yeah, I mean, it's very sad.
• 35:37
  And finally another pastor told her husband, I guess he knew that the husband was cheating on her and said, if you don't tell your wife what's going on.
• 35:46
  I'm going to tell her.
• 35:47
  So he finally confessed that he had been unfaithful.
• 35:52
  And she immediately said, I'm divorcing you tomorrow.
• 35:55
  I'm so glad that she had a reason that everybody else thought was acceptable.
• 35:59
  It was acceptable, she could finally leave the church.
• 36:03
  But the interesting thing is when Cynthia heard about what happened, she called her up and she said, how could you.
• 36:09
  How could you leave him?
• 36:12
  And.
• 36:12
  And that is Stockholm syndrome.
• 36:14
  Yeah.
• 36:14
  She said, you blame me after everything.
• 36:16
  And.
• 36:17
  And Cynthia did.
• 36:18
  She blamed her.
• 36:19
  And she thought that.
• 36:20
  That she should stand by her man just like she had.
• 36:23
  I think this is a generational thing.
• 36:25
  I think that there is a generation of women who trust, truly do believe this and feel this way because they have been indoctrinated their entire lives to believe that this is the only way.
• 36:36
  Right.
• 36:36
  I guess that may.
• 36:37
  Would you call this what a fundamental.
• 36:39
  That would be a fundamental Christian, probably.
• 36:42
  I mean, they're not saying specifically, like, what sex it is or sort of what they believe, but to me, this sounds like fundamentalism.
• 36:49
  Anything that, like, pushes women down and lifts men up in a way where it's like a zero sum game to me is fundamentalism.
• 36:57
  The people I really feel for are the women who are born into these communities who don't really know anything else and who are.
• 37:06
  Again, it's reinforcement.
• 37:08
  It's indoctrination and then reinforcement.
• 37:10
  And it's very disempowering.
• 37:12
  And it creates these really dangerous situations for women and children because the women in these communities are probably primarily responsible for the children.
• 37:22
  And again, it just creates this cycle where the children see this go on and they think this is the only way of the world.
• 37:29
  And so they perpetuate it again and again and again and so on.
• 37:33
  That was another, like, you know, trad wife, sort of.
• 37:38
  That is an actual trad wife.
• 37:40
  That is a traditional woman in the house surrounded by others in a community who believe that same idea that are not running enterprises on social media.
• 37:51
  This is a.
• 37:52
  This is a traditional woman in a traditional Christian idealized by so many people.
• 37:59
  Family.
• 37:59
  Yeah.
• 38:00
  You know, well, and in fact, the next article we read, which is called the Unglamorous Truth about the Average Trad Wife, kind of gets into that.
• 38:07
  And this is from the Atlantic, and what she talks about in this article is the fact that trad wives are such a big trend right now that we see like, you know, yesteryear.
• 38:22
  The book that just came out and apparently Hulu just started a series called Testaments, which is a good grief to the handmaiden's tale that depicts teen girls trained to be docile homemakers.
• 38:37
  And so, you know, there's just a lot people are kind of interested in trad wives right now and they're.
• 38:44
  They're kind of, you know, putting them on a pedestal, at least online.
• 38:48
  Well, it's.
• 38:49
  I mean, yes and no.
• 38:50
  People are putting it.
• 38:51
  Some people are putting them on a pedestal and some people are looking at this and saying, I'm concerned that this is setting us back as women and I'm concerned that this over time could cost us choices as women.
• 39:06
  Yes, yes.
• 39:07
  And she.
• 39:07
  And this author talks about the fact that if you, you know, that women who post about their beautiful meals and beloved husbands and who are making a living at it might better be understood as business women.
• 39:25
  Because that's what they are, right?
• 39:27
  Not traditional wives.
• 39:29
  They are.
• 39:30
  They're business women cosplaying as traditional wives.
• 39:33
  Yes, exactly.
• 39:35
  So what she's saying, they're larp.
• 39:37
  LARPing.
• 39:37
  They're what?
• 39:38
  LARPing.
• 39:39
  Live action role playing.
• 39:41
  Think Ren faire.
• 39:43
  I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 39:46
  A renaissance fair.
• 39:47
  Oh, okay.
• 39:48
  Or like a civil war reenactment.
• 39:50
  Oh, I got it.
• 39:52
  Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing.
• 39:54
  That's what it is, isn't it?
• 39:55
  Larping.
• 39:56
  Oh, okay.
• 39:57
  Interesting, interesting.
• 39:59
  But what this author says is that really the reality is that.
• 40:03
  That the real stay at home wife today is just an exhausted low income mom who cannot afford child care.
• 40:13
  That is the real path to being a trad wife.
• 40:18
  And it typically comes through economic, you know, suffering or difficulty.
• 40:24
  Yeah, it's not making enough money.
• 40:26
  Yeah.
• 40:26
  She can't afford child care or whatever her job or career was prior to having a child because of the explosive costs of child care.
• 40:35
  Right.
• 40:35
  It doesn't make sense for her to do that and then pay someone else to care for her child.
• 40:41
  She either made the same amount or less.
• 40:43
  Right.
• 40:44
  So economically, I guess.
• 40:45
  But again, we've talked about this before.
• 40:48
  If it is not necessarily just the money in the moment.
• 40:53
  If a woman has a career and she's making a certain amount of money at a certain point, if she steps aside from the workforce, if she decides to ultimately come back back, it's very rare that they can step
• 41:02
  back into the job they had before.
• 41:04
  Also, again, you are giving up certain compounding benefits.
• 41:09
  Like if you're stepping away for a few years, you are not going to make the same salary.
• 41:14
  You have lost out on promotions.
• 41:16
  You have lost out on so many things.
• 41:20
  Right.
• 41:20
  And really what this author says is that what, you know, let's say you have two parents and they're not making enough money between the two of them to hire child care.
• 41:32
  One of them may have to step away.
• 41:34
  It tends to be the mother.
• 41:35
  He's always the mother.
• 41:36
  It's always the mother.
• 41:38
  And what happens is then she steps away and has that series of events that you just described.
• 41:45
  So she kind of loses her bargaining power altogether.
• 41:49
  She's dependent on her husband.
• 41:51
  She can't really go out and get a good job, that kind of thing.
• 41:56
  And really, this author did this huge study of 2,000 people who are stay at home moms, and she said 75% of them had incomes under 50,000 a year.
• 42:09
  They were struggling to pay their bills, and most of them would love to get a job if they could, but they had to stay home with their kids.
• 42:17
  Yes.
• 42:18
  I also think again, back to the losing bargains power in a marriage.
• 42:22
  Because as we mentioned earlier, whoever makes the money holds the purse strings, decides how it's distributed.
• 42:27
  I think it depends on what kind of marriage you're in.
• 42:29
  I think many people are in perfectly healthy marriages where there is an income disparity, but one partner does not lord it over the other partner.
• 42:39
  I think it can create that dynamic, and maybe it does more often than not.
• 42:45
  But I think, again, it just depends on the kind of marriage that you're in.
• 42:48
  Some husbands can appreciate the work that a wife does at home.
• 42:53
  And again, you know, child care is worth a lot of money.
• 42:57
  Housekeeping, worth a lot of money.
• 42:59
  All of these jobs that a wife at home takes on, were she doing it for another family, she would be paid a lot of money, right?
• 43:08
  No, that's.
• 43:08
  That is true.
• 43:10
  A big thing that I remember from Testing moms is definitely my tutor Maddie.
• 43:15
  She was a lot more patient and made tutoring a lot more fun than learning about things.
• 43:20
  With my mom, I remember that there were a lot of games, and it made me look forward to going to tutoring every week.
• 43:28
  What the author does say is that what sort of what may be happening is that a lot of stay at home moms are seeing this Pinterest sort of version of stay at home parenting.
• 43:38
  And it appeals to them because it makes them feel like, well, maybe there's a little romance, a little dignity in what I'm doing.
• 43:49
  She said that, you know, there's a lot of shame for women who feel they have to leave formal employment and that they leave it and they then start to get drawn towards communities such as conservative Moms groups and
• 44:02
  evangelists and you know, churches that, you know, are very conservative and you know, they're saying to them, no, no, you're in your rightful place.
• 44:18
  This is important work you're doing.
• 44:20
  You're stay home, you're taking care of your kids.
• 44:22
  And it's very validating to someone who, you know, maybe was struggling with money and they're going, yeah, yeah, this is good.
• 44:29
  I am doing something good.
• 44:30
  Yeah.
• 44:31
  And that's what maybe a lot of this trad wife, you know, is so big.
• 44:38
  Yeah, exactly.
• 44:39
  Because it, it appeals to these women.
• 44:41
  Yeah, yeah, I'm doing something great.
• 44:43
  And you are, you are doing something great.
• 44:45
  Whether you are validated externally are or not, it is an incredibly noble thing to do.
• 44:52
  And it's sacrificial.
• 44:53
  It is self sacrificial.
• 44:54
  And I think what's hard for a lot of people on the outside to accept, particularly women who are not married yet, who don't have children, is seeing what looks like women sacrificing everything where once you have children, whereas
• 45:10
  men, you know, they don't sacrifice very much, their life continues largely as it did before.
• 45:17
  And no matter how involved of a parent they are, what ends up happening, especially early on is like women take on the brunt of it and then that becomes the dynamic.
• 45:26
  And once that is the established dynamic, it becomes really hard to untangle that.
• 45:30
  Yeah, I think that that really is true.
• 45:32
  It is true.
• 45:33
  And you know, for some mothers it's that, you know, she says, leaning into the housewife identity and the beautiful housewife identity of a beautiful life, it might be a lot easier than just accepting the fact that you've been
• 45:49
  pushed out of the workplace for reasons that you really have no control over.
• 45:55
  So that's sort of what this article talks about, which is very, very interesting.
• 46:01
  Yes.
• 46:01
  And brings us to Bell Burden.
• 46:03
  Yes.
• 46:04
  Strangers, if you have not read this book, I don't know how you've missed it because it is absolutely everywhere and it is a crazy, crazy story.
• 46:14
  And obviously there have been plenty of articles coming for her and being like she didn't have it as bad as she said.
• 46:20
  But I think the emotional truth of that book is very poignant.
• 46:25
  Well, let me read, let me read a kind of a summary of what the book is about for those of you who haven't read it.
• 46:30
  So this is kind of instead of an article we're going to talk about.
• 46:33
  Well, it's an article about a book.
• 46:34
  Yeah.
• 46:35
  So we, we'll put the article in the notes.
• 46:39
  But it.
• 46:39
  So it's It's a very interesting article, but both of us read the book and we love, we love the book.
• 46:46
  I love the book.
• 46:46
  I thought it was just really interesting.
• 46:48
  And Bell Burden.
• 46:50
  Well, let me read it.
• 46:50
  Okay.
• 46:51
  This is just a summary.
• 46:52
  It's a best selling memoir that details the abrupt dissolution of the 21 year marriage between the author, Bell Burden, a blue blooded Vanderbilt and Standard Oil heiress, and her husband.
• 47:07
  So it's a very different world.
• 47:08
  It's not someone who doesn't have money.
• 47:10
  She's someone who's lived with a lot of money.
• 47:13
  And her husband, who was I think an investment banker who abruptly leaves her and their three children for his mistress while the family was quarantining at their Martha's Vineyard home.
• 47:26
  Compounding the cruelty of his exit is the financial message.
• 47:31
  Burden discovers that her husband, whom she long trusted with the family finances, kept millions of dollars he made in separate accounts because of a change to their prenup that he proposed days before the wedding.
• 47:46
  Burden, who emptied some of her own trust funds to purchase their homes and to put her career, and she put her career on the back burner to care for the kids.
• 47:55
  She was a layer.
• 47:56
  He was, was entitled to none of the money that her husband made.
• 48:01
  So her husband leaves her abruptly for another woman and sort of, it's sort of, it's hard to tell.
• 48:10
  There will be spoilers by the way.
• 48:11
  So if you haven't read it and you want to read it, maybe take a break.
• 48:14
  But she, it seems to me that her husband kind of had like a nervous breakdown or a midlife crisis.
• 48:22
  This.
• 48:22
  Yeah.
• 48:23
  I mean, based on his behavior, it doesn't seem like he continued to see the mistress or maybe he did, but they didn't really investigate that.
• 48:30
  It sounded to me like he sort of just woke up one day, decided he didn't want the life he built and because he is a man, he actually had the freedom to say, you know what, I don't want
• 48:42
  to do this anymore.
• 48:44
  Because you know who can't do that?
• 48:45
  Women with children.
• 48:47
  It is so unbelievably unthinkable for a woman to wake up one day and decide, you know what?
• 48:52
  Here, husband, the children are yours.
• 48:54
  He didn't want custody of their kids.
• 48:56
  He was like, yeah, I'll see him when I see him.
• 48:58
  Basically, he didn't even.
• 48:59
  Yeah, he left.
• 49:00
  He got new apartment without really a space for them.
• 49:03
  Yeah.
• 49:04
  And you know, well, but the other.
• 49:07
  Thing that I think was so bad, I mean his behavior was, was insane.
• 49:11
  Pretty bad.
• 49:12
  I'm.
• 49:12
  I'M sure he's not the only one who's ever done that.
• 49:14
  But you know, the fact that right before the wedding, he proposed a change to their prenup, which allowed him to keep his own money that he was earning and not share it with his wife when, which, which she
• 49:31
  didn't.
• 49:31
  I don't know if she didn't understand what he had put into.
• 49:35
  She was a lawyer.
• 49:36
  I think this is what happened.
• 49:37
  He basically said, listen, we.
• 49:40
  Anything we come into the marriage with, I guess is separate, but over the course of the marriage, anything we actively decide to put in both of our names belongs to both of us.
• 49:53
  Oh.
• 49:53
  Anything we decide not to belongs to us individually.
• 49:59
  I see.
• 49:59
  Okay.
• 49:59
  And he became a hedge fund person, or a private hedge fund, I believe, which is, again, if you don't know much about finance, hedge fund is the top of the top.
• 50:08
  Yeah.
• 50:08
  And over the course of their 20 something year marriage, he put away millions of dollars she had no idea about.
• 50:16
  And to add insult to injury, he was obsessive about their finances.
• 50:20
  And every, he made her report every red cent she spent and justify it, which to me, that would be a reason enough to leave.
• 50:30
  Yeah, but she didn't leave.
• 50:31
  She loved him.
• 50:32
  She, she didn't want to leave him.
• 50:33
  He, he, he was the one who left her.
• 50:36
  And you know, and, and while it did not put her in a situation where she couldn't, you know, she didn't have a house or anything like that.
• 50:45
  I mean, she had some money, some family.
• 50:47
  Well, she, she made it seem as if, because they got the properties in both of their name.
• 50:54
  If he had decided to exercise not, not the way that we were talking about it earlier, other exercises, his right to that property, she would have had to sell.
• 51:02
  Because what people don't really understand about trust funds is it's not just a bank account you can access whenever you feel like it or need money.
• 51:11
  It is a much more complex process of justification.
• 51:14
  And then getting funds, you get the.
• 51:16
  Money, but if you take your money out of your trust fund and share it with your spouse, then it becomes both of yours.
• 51:22
  And that's what happens.
• 51:23
  People usually put money in a trust fund to protect you from things like that, because they want you to have a certain amount of money and not lose it.
• 51:32
  And what was interesting about this, the.
• 51:34
  Reason she made this choice, and I think, again, many women will identify with this, she says to herself, you know what?
• 51:41
  I'm not financially contributing through my career anymore, but this is money I can financially contribute to our marriage and towards our Assets.
• 51:51
  So I'm gonna do that in good faith, right?
• 51:55
  And I'm gonna put it in both of our names in good faith, because in her mind, she believed were he in the same position, he would do the same for her.
• 52:03
  And he did not.
• 52:04
  No.
• 52:05
  He had millions of dollars.
• 52:06
  He was so dirty.
• 52:08
  He had millions of dollars of his own that he did not share with her.
• 52:13
  And so the reason we bring this book up is because, you know, here we've been talking about, you know, trad wives, where men are in charge and men make all the decisions for a wife and for a family.
• 52:28
  And this was somebody who is pretty sophisticated and made some big mistakes, you know, turning all the finances over to her husband, not being on top of really what her rights were.
• 52:42
  And when she gave up her rights with her husband, and suddenly he leaves, and he's not the same person she married anymore.
• 52:53
  I mean, you never divorce the person you marry.
• 52:56
  You don't divorce the person you marry.
• 52:58
  They become a different person.
• 52:59
  And that is what happened.
• 53:00
  And so I think this book is such a reminder for all women.
• 53:04
  And that's what it has become.
• 53:07
  You know, women all over are saying, read this book and stand up for yourself and, you know, take control of your finances.
• 53:16
  Don't turn them over to your home husband.
• 53:18
  Understand what your rights are and protect yourself.
• 53:22
  Yes.
• 53:22
  Financial literacy for women is so imperative.
• 53:27
  And I think it really.
• 53:29
  Financial literacy should be taught to everybody in school, but women should really take note because, again, we all live in a world where traditional gender dynamics are at play, and women sort of inherently a married woman with.
• 53:44
  With no job, financially dependent on her husband is at her husband's will, therefore making her vulnerable should he not be a totally perfect, savory person.
• 53:55
  And again, this is really going to just depend on the kind of marriage you're in.
• 53:58
  You know, some women don't feel this way.
• 54:01
  Even though they are not contributing financially, they're contributing so much more.
• 54:05
  And some men recognize those contributions, whereas other men see them as.
• 54:11
  Which clearly, I guess her husband must have, because he.
• 54:14
  Again, you know, he was clearly.
• 54:18
  I.
• 54:18
  I think just from his perspective, he probably thought, listen, she comes from family money.
• 54:22
  She will be okay regardless.
• 54:24
  And he didn't really come from very much.
• 54:26
  And I bet he probably thought to himself, you know what?
• 54:29
  I work hard for this money.
• 54:31
  I deserve it.
• 54:31
  What he wasn't considering is the only reason he was able to do that job and have a family and have all of that, these wonderful things that he had, was because there was a woman at home managing it
• 54:42
  being a house manager, a housekeeper, a child producer, a child raiser.
• 54:47
  You know what I mean?
• 54:48
  Like, it's these.
• 54:49
  These are jobs, right?
• 54:52
  And.
• 54:52
  And I think one.
• 54:54
  One thing, this book has really created a real phenomenon online because women are reading it and they're saying, hey, this is really,.
• 55:03
  Really.
• 55:03
  You know, maybe you trust your partner too much.
• 55:06
  You.
• 55:07
  You never know.
• 55:08
  I mean, we all look at Bernie Madoff's wife.
• 55:11
  Oh, yeah.
• 55:11
  I mean, everybody trusted Bernie Madoff way too much.
• 55:14
  The wife wasn't the only one.
• 55:16
  A lot of people trusted him.
• 55:17
  So, you know, you know, marriages fall apart.
• 55:20
  And so, you know, as women, we have to understand our finances, understand our position, you know, make sure that.
• 55:29
  That you are protected.
• 55:31
  And so this book, really quick, if.
• 55:33
  Your husband gives you grief for wanting to have these conversations and establish sort of what this situation is, then beware.
• 55:45
  Yeah.
• 55:46
  You know what I mean?
• 55:46
  If a man is like, you don't need to know about this.
• 55:49
  What is he hiding?
• 55:50
  What is he hiding from?
• 55:51
  No, exactly.
• 55:51
  You.
• 55:52
  You do need to understand your finances.
• 55:54
  Where the money is, what are you entitled to.
• 55:58
  You know, if there's a.
• 55:59
  If there's a prenup, what, you know, what does that mean for you?
• 56:04
  And in fact, we hear in this article, we hear from a divorce lawyer for women who is now recommending this book to all her.
• 56:14
  Her clients because very often they're saying, well, you know, I don't know if I want to have a prenup because.
• 56:21
  Because it's telling my spouse to be.
• 56:24
  That I don't trust him.
• 56:26
  That I think, you know, I'm planning for the end.
• 56:29
  I'm planning for the end.
• 56:31
  No, now, that's not the point.
• 56:32
  The point is, you know, you need to make sure you're protected should, God forbid, the.
• 56:37
  The marriage not work out.
• 56:39
  You want to make sure that you'll be able to.
• 56:42
  If you have children, that you'll be able to take care of your children, that you'll have a place to live, that you'll, you know, that you.
• 56:48
  You.
• 56:48
  You contributed to whatever, you know, money that the two of you, that he made.
• 56:52
  Even if he's the one making the money, like Skyler said, you know, it's.
• 56:57
  Because how does he have a life.
• 56:59
  That you stayed home and took care of the kids, and that's the reason that he's.
• 57:03
  He was able to do what he did.
• 57:04
  The support that wives stay at home.
• 57:07
  Wives stay at home.
• 57:07
  Moms provide.
• 57:08
  Their husband has a number on it.
• 57:12
  I'm just gonna say it like it is.
• 57:14
  It is A valuable thing to do.
• 57:17
  And again, to be treated as though it is an assumed responsibility and that you are entitled to nothing because.
• 57:24
  Okay, if that's the principle, right, say you and your husband get divorced.
• 57:28
  He can keep all the money because he made it.
• 57:29
  You get to keep the kids.
• 57:30
  You made them.
• 57:32
  Well, you both made the kids.
• 57:33
  Well, okay.
• 57:34
  Sort of.
• 57:35
  So I'm sorry, I have never seen a man in a delivery room.
• 57:39
  I've never seen a man trudging down the subway stairs with a stomach so far in front of them.
• 57:45
  I'm telling you, like, if that's how you want to play it, if that is what your husband says to you, well, I made the money, I'm going to keep it.
• 57:50
  Right.
• 57:50
  I made the kids, I'm going to keep them.
• 57:52
  Well, that I suppose on that you have to be able to support them.
• 57:56
  And so.
• 57:57
  But that's, that's why this, that's why this is so difficult, you know, and that's why this book has struck a nerve.
• 58:03
  Because, yeah, you know, women are saying, look what this man could do to this woman who was pretty, had resources.
• 58:12
  Had resources and was intelligent.
• 58:14
  And this is what happened to her.
• 58:15
  And it's a, it's just a cautionary tale.
• 58:17
  It can happen to anyone.
• 58:18
  Right.
• 58:18
  Because again, dynamics, gender dynamics are a thing regardless of how sophisticated or unsophisticated you are.
• 58:25
  Yeah.
• 58:26
  So this, so we've talked about, you know, I guess, you know, the sort of the tradwife phenomenon, you know, the idea just in some different situations, you know, the online trad wife.
• 58:41
  The.
• 58:42
  The trad wife who is.
• 58:45
  Is in that position because she can't afford child care, but she, you know,.
• 58:50
  There's trad wife by choice and then trad wife by circumstance.
• 58:54
  That's true.
• 58:54
  Yeah.
• 58:55
  You know, and again, it's like, what kind of trad wife do you want to be?
• 59:00
  Well, ladies, I, you know, I don't know.
• 59:02
  I.
• 59:03
  It, you know, I was always a working wife, a working woman my whole life, my whole career.
• 59:08
  But I remember when I first had kids, I very much wished I could stay home and be with you kids, but it just wasn't possible.
• 59:18
  We couldn't afford it.
• 59:19
  So it wasn't even.
• 59:20
  So I ended up being a working woman my whole career.
• 59:24
  I'm still working.
• 59:25
  And, you know, I've just.
• 59:27
  I work.
• 59:27
  I like to work, actually.
• 59:29
  But.
• 59:30
  But it, but it's good because I never felt dependent on anybody, which, Which I.
• 59:36
  To me, you know, that was a good feeling.
• 59:38
  Yeah.
• 59:39
  And I think it is hard for people if you.
• 59:41
  If you are staying home, you are taking care of the kids, you just want to make sure you have found a way to protect yourself.
• 59:48
  Yeah.
• 59:49
  And you know that, you know, in.
• 59:52
  In the event that's, God forbid, your marriage doesn't work out, which, you know, that happens a lot, you're gonna be able to take care of yourself and that your contribution is going to be recognized.
• 1:00:04
  Yes, yes.
• 1:00:05
  That's very important.
• 1:00:06
  I work now.
• 1:00:07
  There might be a time in my life where I don't work, at least for money.
• 1:00:12
  I think I will always want to do creative pursuits, whether they produce income or not.
• 1:00:17
  Mostly not, but creative.
• 1:00:20
  Yeah.
• 1:00:21
  I'm really lucky because my husband really respects everything that I do for us at home.
• 1:00:28
  And, you know, that I take care of our daughter and that, you know, he says, listen, like, there might come a time where it's just too much to work and do this.
• 1:00:37
  Maybe when we have another baby, it's just going to be a lot.
• 1:00:40
  Like, if you have to step back, you step back and we just figure it out.
• 1:00:45
  But you have to make sure you're protected.
• 1:00:47
  Totally.
• 1:00:48
  We don't have a prenup, but I know best.
• 1:00:51
  Yeah, I know.
• 1:00:52
  No, he's a great guy.
• 1:00:54
  Famous last words.
• 1:00:56
  No, he is a wonderful man.
• 1:00:58
  But.
• 1:00:58
  No, but I'm just saying it's like you.
• 1:01:00
  You talk these things through, you know, you don't not talk about these things.
• 1:01:04
  That's all that.
• 1:01:05
  Yeah, yeah, you just talk about them.
• 1:01:06
  And that's the main thing.
• 1:01:08
  You.
• 1:01:08
  You make plans for.
• 1:01:09
  For every situation.
• 1:01:11
  And.
• 1:01:11
  And that's what this book reminds us.
• 1:01:15
  And hope for the best, plan for the worst.
• 1:01:18
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:19
  Yeah.
• 1:01:19
  So anyway, these were very interesting articles.
• 1:01:21
  All of them.
• 1:01:22
  Yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Again.
• 1:01:23
  And I also think it's important to cover things like this.
• 1:01:25
  Obviously, this isn't specifically about parenting, but most moms are the primary parent, and I think it's important for moms to understand, like, your welfare.
• 1:01:37
  Well, being in every form that it can take is important and meaningful.
• 1:01:41
  And there are so many ways to be a wife.
• 1:01:43
  There are so many ways.
• 1:01:44
  Ways to be a mom.
• 1:01:45
  But, you know, you just have to be sure, a, it's your choice, and B, that if the worst were to happen, you at least have some idea of how to take care of yourself.
• 1:01:55
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:57
  Okay, so join us next week for perhaps a lighter topic.
• 1:02:03
  Actually, probably not, because it's.
• 1:02:04
  We're going to cover yesteryear, so buckle up.
• 1:02:07
  And thank you guys so much for joining us for this episode of Other People's Parenting.
• 1:02:11
  We really like spending our time with you.