Latest / Hurdle with Emily Abbate / Episode 39: Carolyn Kylstra, Editor-in-Chief SELF

Transcript

Episode 39: Carolyn Kylstra, Editor-in-Chief SELF · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, you're listening to episode thirty nine of Hurdle,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: a podcast that talks to everyone from top CEOs to
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: entrepreneurs about how they got through tough times hurdles of
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: sorts by leaning into wellness. My name's Emila Badi, and
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: today I'm chatting with Carolyn Gilstra. She's the editor in
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: chief of Self. This episode's brought to you by Athletic Greens.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I travel a lot, and every single time, without fail,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the first thing I set aside to put into my
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: carry on Athletic Greens. Not only does it contain twelve
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: servings of fruits and vegetables, but drinking it every single
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: morning makes me feel like a better me. They're offering
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  Speaker 1: a special deal to Hurdle listeners. It's twenty travel packs
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  Speaker 1: a ninety nine dollars value for free free with your
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: first purchase. Just head on over to Athleticgreens dot com
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: slash hurdle to claim it. No code necessary again, that's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Athleticgreens dot com slash Hurdle. Now let's talk about Carolyn.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: To say that she's had an impressive career in journalism
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: so far is an understatement from stints at Men's Health
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: to Cosmopolitan and Woman's Health and BuzzFeed. Now she's the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: editor in chief of Self at Conde Nast, but her
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: rise to the top wasn't exactly smooth sailing all along.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: In her Hurdle moment, the new mom shares that she
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: found out she was pregnant around the same time her
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: entire career was about to make a major shift, and
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: how she managed to keep it together despite abundant and
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: sometimes overwhelming amounts of responsibility, also constant morning sickness. We
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: talk about everything from the scary climate of the publishing
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: industry to how she manages to take time for herself.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: She tells me an insane story about how she almost
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: died because of a tick bite. We reflect on what
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: our careers cross paths, and she offers up some essential
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: insight on what it truly means to be healthy. Yeah,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: this episode is loaded. I want to quickly thank Ink
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: for featuring Hurdle this week on their list of seven
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: podcasts to add to your rotation if you're growing a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: small business. I was in California in my hotel room
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the other night, and I literally screamed with excitement when
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I got this Google alert. I swear I thought the
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: housekeeping staff was going to come check in on me. Also,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a huge, huge thank you again to weewerk Labs for
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: hosting Hurdle last week. It was so great to hang
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: out with a bunch of hurdlers in person, and that
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: conversation will be live at some point this week on
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the feed as always Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, hit me up
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: at Hurdle Podcast. Time me in your Instagram stories, I'll
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: make sure to repost them from the Hurdle feed, and
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: if you want to chat or you have a hurdle
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: moment of your own to share, feel free to hit
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: me up. Emily at hurdle dot Us. Shout out today
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: to Arifreed. She messaged me to tell me about her
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: hurdle moment. She's moving from Seattle all the way to Brooklyn.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: She wrote, I'd be lying if I said that I
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: wasn't nervous about my upcoming cross country move and taking
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: long call ships in the hospital when I'm used to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: working in a nine to five dental clinic. I know
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I'm going to need to pay special attention to how
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I'm treating my mind and body during these upcoming three
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: years in Brooklyn, and your podcast is helping me get
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: ready for this. Thanks for putting yourself out there in
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Happy twenty nineteen. She would also appreciate any food or
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: workout recommendations. So Ari, I'm going to tell you this,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: make sure you get to Linees tend Power Yoga. It's
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: my fave. They are in Tribeca and also in Chelsea.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: And maybe either after that or some other time, hit
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: up Emily Pizza. You won't regret it. And that's it
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: for now. With that, let's get to hurdling today. I'm
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: sitting here with Carolyn Kilstra, She's the editor in chief
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of Self magazine, and I'm super amped because we are
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: at the Smile Radio inside the Smile to Go at
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: the Free Hand Hotel, and it's the first time I'm
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: recording here, which is exciting. What's going on, Carolyn, Hi, Emily.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: We're like a little bit giddy over this because this
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: has been so long in the making.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it really has been. I'm really sorry about that.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: O gosh, no apology is necessary. Apology is necessary. But
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a little background here. Carolyn and I have known each
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: other for some times. I mean we both worked at
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Rodale together. Yes, May at rest in peace.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Many years ago. Yeah, like I don't know how many
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: years years.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: That was probably about seven years, six years ago. Yeah,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: so we worked together about six years ago at the
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: same company and now and then we intersected a'll bite
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: briefly at self seeting Carolyn is like a little bit
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: of PTSD for me. But it's okay, it's okay. I'm
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: excited about where you self is going. I'm excited to
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: talk about that today. I'm so amped to be here
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: with you. I think the way that I want to
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: jump into this from the get go is, obviously you
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: have an impressive resume. I kind of just already threw
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: down some of the places that you've worked. We have
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Woman's Self, we have BuzzFeed, we have self in multiple roles.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: So with that said, a bunch of health publications, you
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: would think, Carlyn, that you're the most fitnessy person ever.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: You would be wrong. You would be incorrect.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about like what you do,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: what's your deal, what's your streck, what do you do?
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: What's my workout thing? Yeah, my workout thing is that
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I basically don't work out. I have been in the
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: health and wellness space for about a decade now, and
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I could probably count the number of workouts that I've
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: done like on.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe my.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: No, okay, I take that back, I take that back.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't work out like almost ever. And
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I joke that I'm like the least healthy health editor
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: of all time. I know it's important I go on
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: long walks, like I get exercise, I track my steps
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: and all that, but I just I'm so busy and
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: and literally no one's perfect, and I do what I can.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I see you're also wearing the Apple Watch, which is
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: a great a great motivator to get up and walk
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: around and close the rings. I'm sure you get lots
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of steps inside of one World Trade.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I do, and I get steps on my commute also,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: like you know, I probably walk about just commuting, I
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: walk probably about two miles a day. Wow, because it's
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I walk about two miles a day, like just in general,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: but like other than that, like I have to really
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: make an effort to move more. I generally get more
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: of my steps on the weekends.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: And we'll obviously backtrack into kind of how you ended
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: up where you are now, But do you feel a
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: certain amount of pressure being in your position to be
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: a certain amount of active or maybe it's not being
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: active as much as it is being healthy, because that's
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: something also to note that being healthy isn't just about
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: doing a certain workout every day. There's so many aspects
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: to overall health aside from that.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is something I think about a lot.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: So Okay, So I'm in media. You're in media. You
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: understand the importance of branding and personal branding, and as
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a leader of a brand, it's really important that I
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: represent the brand in a way that is authentic and
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: realistic and also like advancing the brand's agenda. I guess
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I've always had a really hard time doing the self
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: promotion thing and also like aligning my personal brand with
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: the actual brand I'm working for. I don't know why
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: that is. I think the way I think about health
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and wellness is maybe less like right in your dot
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: journal every night and get this many steps and drink
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: this many cups of water or whatever, which are all
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: really good things to do, and more about how can
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I feel good at the end of the day, or
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: how can I feel as good as is possible within
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: the constraints at the end of the day. And so
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: it's funny because as part of my job. My boss
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: is like, you really need to be more on social media,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: you really need to be more promotional and do more
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: branding and so on representing the brand. And I'm like,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I'm so boring though, like I and there's nothing visual
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: about my life. Like it's like I commute and I
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: sit in meetings and then I commute home and then
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I put my baby to bed and and like there's
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: and like so the things that are health related there
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: are like a little more cerebral than like, look at
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: this sick workout class I'm in, or look at this
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: hot at leisure I'm wearing.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I bet you have a lot of great athleasure, though
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I have really good measure. Also, I love how you
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: just casually said my boss, Like Anna Wintour is your boss,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: and it's just like my boss. I'm like, yeah, same,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: same these. Okay, so health books a little bit different
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: for you than it does for the next person. And
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: the next person. You're doing the best you can with
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: what you have, which I think is always a motto
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: do abide bye. And now I think is a good
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: time then to segue and kind of bring it back,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: bring it back to maybe around uh, you know what,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: let's wind it all the way back where you're coming from.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Care how far back are we time?
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going back, I'm going to like, where'd you grow up?
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Where'd you go to college?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Okay? Okay? I grew up in North Carolina, which maybe
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't be able to tell because I don't have
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: much of an accent. Okay. I grew up in a
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: family of doctors, right. My parents are doctors. I have
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: numerous aunts who are doctors, grandparents doctors, like, just doctors everywhere,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: which is a really privileged background and incredible access to
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the medical establishment. Basically, as you can imagine, they're all
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: thrilled that I went into journalism and not medicine, but
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I feel, you know, I always wanted to tell stories
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: and I loved writing, and so that's why I went
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: in this direction. But it's also kind of funny that
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I ended up in health journalism because I just like
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: couldn't escape that upbringing, right, you know what I mean?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And I think the reason I gravitated toward health journalism
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: is because having grown up with so many doctors in
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: my life, I I am not intimidated by them, and
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I know how to talk to them, and I realize
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: that they're all just people, and I'm really good at
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: getting at getting them to communicate in a way that's
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: a little more human, because I think that a lot
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: of doctors and experts tend to not know how to
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: talk in a way that people can understand. Totally not
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: saying that people aren't smart enough, but like, it's really
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: it's a problem. It's a challenge of science communication and
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: being able to say here's the issue and here's how
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it, instead of using all these words
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: that nobody knows what they mean, et cetera. And so
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I just having that background made it easier for me
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: to talk to them on the phone and be like, Okay,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: can you please explain that again? Oh wait, can you
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: explain that a little bit more. Can you talk to
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: me like I'm five and explain it?
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And then once you really push, that's when you get
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: the good stuff.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, And I mean the same thing
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: happens in this room when I'm trying to get people
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: to tell their story. It's like you say one thing
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: and you think it's what I want to hear, and
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I look at you and I say, well, what about
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: this part of that one thing, and let's elaborate on that,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: and let's take a little bit deeper. I also think
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: it gets to be a little funny to be the
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: person doing all of this reporting from like the freely
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: answer journalist perspective, in that you're sitting down with these
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: experts and in my case, like these experts know that
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I'm also a certified trainer, I'm a run coach. I've
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: been around the block writing this content for years. But
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: I still have to ask them questions like so, tell
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: me again why bliometrics are really good for you?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Right? And they're like, don't you know? And you're like no, no, no,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: but you need to say.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: I need you to give me the four one one
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: right please if you don't mind. Okay. So you get
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: into this industry where you're asking lots of really smart
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: people to dumb things down for you.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Right, dumb things down. No, it's not dumbing things down,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: And that I think is what a lot of science
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: communicator are. People who should be better at communicating scientists
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: need to understand it's not dumbing down your message. It's
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: commune dicating more clearly, right, it's communicating in a way
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: that people can connect with and can relate to and
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: can understand.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Since you're not in the room, you didn't see me
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: give like an aggressive nodding yes of understanding where she's
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: coming from.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, you get it, you've done this.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: You tontally got your I totally get it. Okay, So
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: you're doing that at when you went from Cosmo to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Woman's Health, Is that right?
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So okay. I started at Men's Health right after
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I graduated in June two thousand and eight. Really not
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: an ideal time to graduate because the economy went off
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: a cliff three months later and I was in the
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: middle of a six month internship and I was like,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: oh crap, now what everyone nobody's hiring. Everyone laid off
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent of their employees. It was really,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: really scary. I was at Men's Health in a temp
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: position for like a year, and then I was incredibly
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: lucky to get a full time job because somebody left.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Was at Men's Health for a few years, went to Cosmo,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: was there for a few years, went to Women's Health
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: from Cosmo.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, yeah, and at Woman's Health. Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: But when we were talking on the phone, you were
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: telling me that this was like a really crazy time
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: for your life because you may or may not have
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: almost died.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that did happen. Yeah, it was a two
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: year It was an amazing two years. It was a
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: really full, wild two years for me. I got engaged
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: and married during that time. I also, in the very
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: middle of it. Three months before I got married, had
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: a completely bizarre, out of the middle of nowhere health
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: crisis where and you guys should google this, but I
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: got a tick bite and then got a disease called
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which landed me in the hospital
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: for a week, and like, really really, it took me
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: a good six months to feel normal again after that.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: And so that was in the middle of working at
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: women's Health.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: That must have been absolutely frightening.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: At the time, I was so sick that I didn't
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: even realize what was going on. I think it was
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: completely terrifying to my then fiance now husband, and I
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: know my family was very freaked out.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And you come from a family of doctors, right.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And honestly, it was a really interesting experience for me
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: because I realized how extremely privileged I am to come
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: from this family of doctors. Because they were instrumental in
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: helping me get the care that I needed, like navigating
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the medical establishment while sick. Without that access would have
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: been like basically impossible.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And when you first started to get sick, how did
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: you know it was something bigger than just having a
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: fever feeling really down?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So I went to my GP. I went
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to my primary care physician because I felt like I
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: had the flu. And I was like, I had a
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: fever and I just felt awful, and I was like, Oh,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: what's going on? Do I have the It wasn't flu season,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: it was May, and she was like, Oh, it's probably
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: just a virus. There's some stuff going around. Sleep over
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the weekend and see how you feel. But I was
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: on the phone with my mom that night and was
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: explained to her how I was feeling, and she remembered
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: that I'd been back in North Carolina two weeks before
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: and I'd gotten a tick on me and this disease
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain spotted fever.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Is it's nickname for this, No, it is.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: It's really rare, but the place where it's most common
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: is in North Carolina and during this time of year,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: and it presents like you have the flu but without
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: any like coughing or congestion, and there in a lot
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: of cases it has a rash. I didn't have the rash,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: but I had like all of the other signs. And
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: my parents were like, oh, wait, you need to get
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: on antibiotics right away. This is a really dangerous disease
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and you need to get on antibiotics. And so I
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: called up my doctor and I was like, I think
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: they think this is what it is. And she's like, oh,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this. Let me look it up.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: It sounds like that's possible. And so she was great
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: and she got me oral antibiotics. The problem was that
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: they weren't That wasn't going to be sufficient, and I
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: just got sicker and sicker, and so my parents were
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: finally like, you need to go to the er. And
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I went to the er and the er doc was
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: just like not having it and he thought I was
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: just going through alcohol withdrawal or something, which it was
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Memorial Day weekend, so maybe I have no idea. Anyway,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: he prescribed right right when all the raging happens, right,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: and so he prescribed me out a van for anxiety,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: and meanwhile I have like an incredibly high fever. I'm
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: not able to keep down water, and like I have
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: multiple doctors on the phone being like, you need to
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: get her on like ivy anibotics right now, And my
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: mom actually flew to New York City to like argue
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: with the doctors. My aunt got on the phone. She's
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: a primary care physician in North Carolina. We had multiple
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: doctors like arguing with them. And then finally after this
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: guy shift ended and a new er doctor came on board,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: she was like, Huh, this does seem like you guys
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: know what you're talking about. And so that's when I
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: got on IVY antibiotics and I was in the hospital
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: for a week.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Back to your point, though, like if you didn't have
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: these people advocating for you, like I, I'm also lucky
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: because my mom's a nurse, and I feel like everyone
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of people have some odd tie to medicine
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: in some way through someone, right, but not everyone, And
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: so when things like this happen, you have these people
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: advocating for you. The normal person might not and they're
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: just going to do whatever they feel like they're told
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: they're supposed to.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Do, right, I mean totally and I'm fortunate on a
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: million levels that that I'm a white woman, and so
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: they were more likely to take me seriously because I'm
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: a white woman instead of a person of color coming
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: in complaining about pain that my family is has the
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: means to fly for my mom, to fly from another
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: state to come advocate for me and stay with me,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know, for a week while I'm in the hospital,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: for my parents and my entire family, to many people
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: in my family to be doctors so they are aware
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of these diseases and know how to talk to other
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: doctors and know how to know how to advocate for
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: their loved ones in the system. Every single one of
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: those things is a point of privilege, and and it
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: really blows my mind thinking about how the vast, vast
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: majority of people do not have many, if not most,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: of those advantages. And if it was this hard for
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: me with all of these advantages to get the care
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: that I needed, then how hard must it be for
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: everyone else?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Totally?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: You know what a hurdle.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: A hurdle? Okay, so we survived here, I am how
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: is it getting back to work and everything? After that?
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: It was tough. I worked, so I was out for
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the week I was in the hospital, was out for
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: another week after I had to go on FMLA or
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: short term disability I can't even remember. But I was
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: out for long enough that I had to like go
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: through like actually legal whatever, and then I was working
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: remotely for like another few weeks. And it's funny because
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I just at the time, I thought I was like fine,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: just tired. But a month later I would like look
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: at emails that I sent during that time period and
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: have like absolute zero recollection of anything I was emailing
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: or and I was like, I have no memory of
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that conversation, like entire conversations that I had. I just
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I just wasn't fully healed yet, right, And I literally
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: it took me like six months until I felt like
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I had my energy back and like had my bearing.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Did you have doubts about your ability to go back
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: to doing what you were doing beforehand?
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember. I don't think so. I was,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I was really really really upset about some
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: things that in retrospect feel a little silly. So I've
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: never been a runner, Like in my entire life, I've
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: always hated running. I just find it miserable and painful
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: and Ryan, my husband, is a runner, and so he
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: had been like working with me on becoming a runner.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: And the reason I even got the tick on me
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: in the first place is because I'd become so good
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: at running that I was running like three miles four
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: miles at a time, and we went for a run
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: in North Carolina in the woods and through the tall grass,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and that's where I got a tick on me. And
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: so after this experience, I was just like completely completely
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: fried and like couldn't do anything and felt like I
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: had no energy and no strength at all. And I
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, there goes all the progress
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that I've made in becoming a runner and now I
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: have to start from square one again. I hate this,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Like I was just curious about that totally, and it
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: was just it's such a ridiculous thing to like focus
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: on when there's so many other like I should be
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: grateful to be alive, I should be that. I was
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: just pissed about like ruining my my like progress and running.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I think something that I've been working on personally since
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: early twenty eighteen was kind of dealing with this idea
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: that there are going to be a lot of things
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: in my life that I can't control, and sometimes I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: just need to let it go and let them happen
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and focus on the things that I can I earlier
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: this week, for instance, my MacBook. I opened it and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the screen had these huge purple lines on it. Oh,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and yeah, that's I mean, like that's the gut reaction.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, and then you about all the things
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: you need to do with your MacBook that week. And
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: rather than and I don't know how I remain this calm,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: but rather than like I think old Emily probably would
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: have cried, probably would have like called her dad in hysterics.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I literally just picked up the phone, texted my dad.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, I think the display died, and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: like it was just like, throw your hands up in
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: the air. Guess we got to make a genius bar
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: appointment and go to the Apple store and see what
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you're gonna do. Like, there was nothing I could do
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: about it, right, And so rather than get upset or
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: freak out in my mind, Also, now everything's stored in
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the cloud, so I was just like, well, if the
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: computer dies, the computer dies, and I guess we'll just
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: figure it out again. There's probably some privilege to that statement. Too, right.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: It's like, for sure, I have the I am so
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fortunate that I plan smart and I've saved all this
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: money and I can go to the Apple Store and
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I have the ability to do all these things. You know,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: So if you know she'd hit the fan, I would
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: have dealt with it. But sometimes you just got to
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: think of it that way totally. This is what I
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: can control now, this is what's worth getting upset about,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and this what isn't.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I'm still working on that.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I think we're all. I think we're all constantly working
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: on that. I understand being frustrated about not being able
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to run, though.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: I mean it's not it was. It was almost more
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: like I was just so frustrated because it was such
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: a miserable process getting to the point where like running
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: didn't totally suck. Yeah, And I was like, I am
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: actually enjoying this, maybe, like this is I don't I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: don't even recognize myself anymore. I've literally never liked running
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: my entire life, and here I am, like actively choosing
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: to go on four mile runs. That's wild.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like most people actually share that same sentiment
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: before they quote unquote become a runner. Even though I
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: truly stand by the statement that everyone's a runner. If
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you just like take a few steps, you can do it.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: But I think that. I mean, I felt the same
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: way before I started running. I absolutely hated it. I
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: sucked at it. I couldn't go for more than like
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: one minute without getting out of breath.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: So I just find it so painful, and I don't
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: like doing things that hurt.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. I'm not mad at that. Okay,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: so you're not a runner, but you're alive, still at
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: your job at Women's Health, and then you go to BuzzFeed. Right. Okay,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: so you're at BuzzFeed. You're the health editor at BuzzFeed.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Right. I launched the health vertical at BuzzFeed, which was
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: really exciting. I had been at Women's House for two years.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: The editor in chief left. Basically, anytime any ic leaves,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: there's always a ton of disruption and uncertainty, and so
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I thought this was a good time to look and
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: see what else is out there, and BuzzFeed had like
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: a really enticing opportunity. It was interesting to me because
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: it was a step down in title, and actually I
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: stepped down in pay also not significantly, and so I
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: had to talk to my then husband about my husband
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: about it to see if he was comfortable with that,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: if we could swing it, et cetera, et cetera. But
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: to me, it felt like a really important move for
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: my career because I wanted to go somewhere that at
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: the time was like the pioneer in digital and the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: brand that everyone and was looking to as like leading
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: the way and like what digital journalism or digital content
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: creation could be. So I was like, this is kind
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: of like my grad school experience of learning and growing
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: in my career, even if it means a step back
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: and a pay cut.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: All right, so you're at BuzzFeed and then from BuzzFeed
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: you move to self.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is right.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, so when you started itself, what were you doing.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I came on in twenty fifteen to be the executive
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Digital director, which means that I was running digital for
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: the brand. And that's when you and I overlapped, right, Yeah, yeah,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: so you said twenty fifteen. At the end of twenty fifteen, yeah, wow,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: it feels like I know, I can't believe it.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay, yeah, so we overlap them,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: and you were overseeing digital and a lot has happened. Yes,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm no longer itself. Self used to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: have a print magazine. That's no longer Self's now an
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: entirely digital brand. They're also, I mean, in the last
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: year alone, it Self has a masked a crazy amount
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: of awards. You were on Adweek's hot List, Hottest in
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: and Wellness and Fitness, you are. You got the National
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Magazine Award for Social Media. So a lot of things
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: are happening itself and now at Self you're the editor
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in chief. But it's not like that just happened overnight. No,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: So why don't we talk a little bit about that transition?
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And yeah, why don't we talk a little bit about
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that transition.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Sure, So just to back up a little bit to
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: understand the brand history and context, Self is actually turning
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: forty years old this year, Wow, which is wild to
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: think about. I grew up reading Self. I'm sure you
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: did too. It was really it was the first or
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: one of the first female or women's fitness and health
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: magazines and really a pioneer in the space. And if
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: you if you're somebody who's paying any attention to what's
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: going on in media lately, you'll know that everything is chaos.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Everything is chaos. It's just going The industry itself is
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: going through a massive, massive disruption, and this has been
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: going on for years now. I mean, we were just
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: talking about BuzzFeed being the you know, pioneer and digital
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: blah blah blah. That's part of that transition. But even they,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: all digital native brands or whatever, are also going through chaos.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: At this point in time, Self had, you know, like
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: all other brands, was going through massive transition and deal
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: and coping with the mounting challenges of this changing industry.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: And Self had for a few years. By the time
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I got there, been been a fairly challenged business. You know,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: it had a new e see, it had gone through
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: a few publishers, like all this stuff is public information.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: So I came on and they wanted me to turn
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: the digital property around and build it up and see
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: what we can do to help the brand. But unfortunately,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: the business itself was becoming more and more unsustainable, and
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Conde Nast made the decision about a year after I
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: got there, to stop the stop publishing the brand in
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: print and make it a digital led brand. My boss
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: called me into her office and she told me that
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: the print publication was folding. I was going to be
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: editor in chief very soon, and I had found out
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: five days before that I was pregnant. She didn't know that, obviously,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: but I just like was sitting in her office thinking, like,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, so much is happening. I'm so nauseated
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: right now now for multiple reasons, and there's so much
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: work to do, and on top of that, it's just
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: it was a little it was a little devastating, right, Like,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I mean a lot devastating for everyone it was impacted,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: including you. But it was just this like absolutely devastating
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: moment of this brand that I loved and grew up
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: loving was going to change so radically. And then on
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: top of that, at the time, there had not been
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: an example that I was aware of of a brand
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: that started as a legacy print publication that successfully transitioned
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to digital and survived, and so I didn't know what
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: success looked like. Pivoting to digital or whatever. Changing to
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: digital led brand at that point in time in my
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: head meant we're going to let it limp along for
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: a little bit more and then we'll fold it completely.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: And so it was this really, really, really scary moment
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: that was like terrifying because I'm pregnant and devastating because
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: all these people who I know and care about and
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: who I respect so tremendously are losing their jobs, and
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: incredibly anxiety provoking because I'm now responsible for a whole
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: other group of people and all of their jobs and
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: if I don't do this right, everyone's going to lose
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: their jobs.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: It's also kind of crazy because I mean, as someone
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: who's in the same industry, in the same field, was
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: involved in that same transition, I think about being a
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: young girl and dreaming of being an editor in chief. Yeah,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: and like this moment for you being told by one
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: of the biggest names in publishing that you're about to
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: be the editor in chief. It's so loaded, right, it's
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: not like what you probably ever dreamt of.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: No, totally, I mean exactly correct. Like I remember the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: articles that were written about it, and there were so
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: many different headlines that could be used in those articles,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and most of them were about the print meag folding, right,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: and some of them were about me being editor in chief.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: But it's like think about like I can't I felt
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: like I couldn't celebrate because it wasn't really something to celebrate,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: even though this was like easily the biggest accomplishment I
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: guess you could say of my career, but like, what
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a devastating accomplishment, and then on top of that, how scary.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: And on top of that, I'm so nauseated, like so nauseated,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: like five minutes from barfing one hundred percent of the time.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Recapping this like literally makes me want to cry. It's
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: just insane to really think about how equal parts exciting
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: and devastating it is.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like it was more devastating than exciting,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: to be totally honest with you. And and like I
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: would see, like, you know, we're friends with a ton
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: of industry people on Facebook, and all these people were
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: like eulogizing the magazine and everyone was talking about it
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: like the brand was dead. Yeah, the brand was done,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: and like the something did go away that day. Obviously,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: you know, a part of the brand absolutely was no
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: longer in existence, and that is something that deserved the
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: eulogies that it got. But it was also kind of
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: it was like reading all these eulogies seeing like, oh, well,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: I'll miss it, It's gone forever. I'm like, you know,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: there's actually like a whole bunch of people who still
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: have their jobs, who are working. And that was the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: other thing is that the day that it happened, half
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the staff, as you remember.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I drank so many blendy Mars.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I think I did too. No, I didn't. I was pregnant,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: so I did not do that. I'm like, I wish
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I had I wish I had the ability to it.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I drank a lot of bloody Marys.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys all went, and so like half the team, yes,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: half the team went and had to pack their desks,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: and the other half the team had to keep working.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And so it's like people crying and everyone crying and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: all these poor digital editors like churning out content at
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: the same time. It was just it was really dark
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: and very bittersweet, and I feel weird telling the story
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: because I don't want anyone to feel bad for me,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Like this is not something to like feel bad, Like,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that, because
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I recognize again, like the position that I was in there,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: which was keeping a job and getting elevated and so on,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: in the face of so many talented people losing their jobs.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Totally. And I mean to say at the very least
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: that this is a hurdle moment would be an understatement,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: because you are all of a sudden presented with this
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: brand and now you are the person at the helm
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: who has the opportunity to decide the direction that this
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: brand goes, while so many people are, like you said,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: eulogizing the brand, talking about self being done, and it's like, no,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: now is our chance for self to be reborn?
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Right, And at the time I was thinking, I was
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: thinking a few things. First was that I like, it
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't really so much about a rebirth as just like survival.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Year one was really like, oh shit, how do we
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: how do we survive this? How do we survive into
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: year two?
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: And there were so many challenges that we faced, not
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: really anybody's fault. It's like it just hadn't been done before,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: and so we just made a ton of mistakes that
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: in retrospect, I like, if anybody's going to go in
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: this direction, I think a lot of brands in the
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: future will go in this direction. I could give you
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: really good advice about how to how to avoid some
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: of the things that we went through, But we learned
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: a lot and we survived. But like, the main thing
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I was focusing on at that time was, Okay, how
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: do we survive and how do I and what is
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: required for that survival? And to me it was a
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: few things. One was like changing that perception in the
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: industry that we were gone, Like, this was really important
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: that people didn't feel like we were gone completely. It's
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: important from an advertising perspective, you want your advertisers to
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: feel comfortable, and so it was really really important that
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: they knew who we were and that we were still here.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: It was also really important that our peers in the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: industry knew that we were still there. From like just
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: a retaining people perspective and also recruiting new people perspective, right, So,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: how do It's really hard to keep people wanting to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: work for your company or your brand or your team
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: if they feel like their job is in danger, they
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: feel like they're going to get laid off any minute,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you know. And it's also really hard to recruit people
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: to a brand that they're worried is not going to
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: be around for much longer. Right, And so those were
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: some big concerns that I had tied to, Like the
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: news of like the brand is folding and you're like,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: oh crap, that's like not the messaging that we need
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: to be conveying. So how do we share a different
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: version of that story? How do we talk about this
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: like it's actually an amazing opportunity as opposed to something
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: really scary. So that was like step one is like
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: how do we change this narrative? And then step two
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: was there was some confusion over what the brand stood
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: for because you know, which is what happens when you
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: go through a rapid succession of new leadership, right, Like
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: there had been a number of editors in the past
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: few years, and so there was some confusion over like, well,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: what is the brand? And in the meantime, as you
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: well know, wellness is so so so buzzy and everyone
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: is talking about wellness, and so how do you compete
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: in a really really crowded space And so that was
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: super super important too, to figure out how do we
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: differentiate this brand in a way that people are going
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: to recognize when they see this wellness content? Oh, I
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: know that that self right, and defining the brand really
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: clearly also goes a long way and helping people realize
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: that we're still there, and it also goes a long
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: way and helping people who are on the team feel
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: like they belong to something bigger than themselves and feel
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: like they belong to something that they really believe in
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: and value and are excited about. Right So, defining the
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: brand and like what it means to be a health
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: brand in a digital only space was super super important
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: to do as part of that narrative.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: A quick break from today's episode to give the sponsor,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Athletic Greens a little bit of love. I know I
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: mentioned traveling a lot today, but I'm telling you, if
• 35:50
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• 35:52
  Speaker 1: me when I'm constantly on the go, it's grabbing a
• 35:55
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• 35:59
  Speaker 1: no matter what business, dinners, lunches, coffees, meals, ice creams,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: whatever I have on tap for the day, I at
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• 36:08
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• 36:27
  Speaker 1: slash hurdle. Let's get back to it. I'm back here
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: sitting with Carolyn Kilstra. She's the editor in chief of Self,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: and we're talking now about the direction that the brand
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: is going to go in after the print kind of
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: goes by the wayside. So I went to the site
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: earlier today. I see a woman that's probably over two
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: hundred pounds doing some barbell movements, and I can say
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: without a doubt that two years ago when I was itself,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: that's probably not something you would have seen on the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: of the website. And so I think there's something really
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: special to be said for the direction you guys are
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: going in terms of inclusivity, in terms of body acceptance
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: and body positivity. I'd love if you could just shed
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: a little bit of light about the direction you guys
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: are going and how you've come to define the brand
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: as time has kind of progressed here totally.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I'm really glad you noticed our homepage and the imagery
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that we have on the site. It's something that we've
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: been really intentional about and incredibly focused on as part
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: of the inclusivity component of our values. When we were
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: doing the work that first year laying the foundation, a
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: really important thing we did was we redefine the mission,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: and then we redefined our values. And then we've you know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: in the in aiming for differentiation, like it's so important
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: to be differentiated such a crowded market. We need to
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: stand out, we need to be singular, and in doing that,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: it was really important that every single thing we did
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: laddered up to that mission in those values, that mission
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: is self as a health brand. Our goal is to
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: help people live healthier lives, whatever that looks like to them.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And in order to do that effectively, in order to
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: live up to that mission, we have four values. Inclusivity
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: because you can't help people who don't feel welcome in
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: your world. Accuracy because it's not helpful if it's not true,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Like there's so much nonsense out there, and it's nonsense
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: for the sake of supposedly empowerment, but it's not empowering
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: if you're getting in the way of somebody actually getting
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the treatment that they need. So inclusivity, accuracy, Empathy because
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: everyone's just trying their best, and people want to feel
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: seen and heard and they don't want to feel judged.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: And then autonomy, which is a really important one and
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: is basically, your body is your business, and what you
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: do with it is yours is your choice, and we're
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: here to help you understand those choices that you make
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: so you can do them as safely and healthfully as possible.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Period.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: So we realize that we have these values, all of
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: our content is really lattering up to that, but the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: way our site looked, in the way our content looked,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: didn't kind of reflect that because primarily we were using
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: you know, getty stock photography, which all looks the same,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, and we do all these workouts,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: but they all still used fitness models because that was
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the easy thing to do, and we knew how to
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: do that, and so we very intentionally made changes to
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: our original photography. We decided that we had to change
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: the way we were shooting our workouts, so we did
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: a casting call for non model fitness enthusiasts and hundreds
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: of people came out and tried out, and we basically
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: wanted to see did they have good form? That was
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: the thing that mattered, and so we cast twenty five
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: to thirty people I can't remember. We cast twenty five
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: to thirty people to shoot hundreds of moves and many
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: different specific workouts, and we've created basically a year's work
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: of workout content featuring people whose bodies look like your body, right,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: who look like my body, who look like other people's bodies.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Like you can look at our workout content or fitness
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: content and it looks like humanity. And that's really, really,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: really important because the truth is that fitness should be
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: for everyone. I know you believe that, and so why
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: don't we see that?
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Right? I think that was probably one of the hardest
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: things for me as I was losing weight, especially in
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: a time where social media wasn't as prevalent. The outlets
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: I was looking to they didn't have anyone that looked
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: like me. When I would go into the stores that
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I would shop at, none of the stores on the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: walls had anyone. At the time, I was a size
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: sixteen bigger, No one had a size sixteen on the wall.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: No one had anyone that looked like me. I felt
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: like I was completely alone and doing everything wrong. And
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: now to go to a site like self and go
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: to that homepage and see this like beautiful woman on
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: the front lifting a barbell and she's so proud and
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: she's rocking it. It's like, I can do that.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that woman who you're talking about is
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: a competitive powerlifter. Like that's the other thing. She's a
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: real athlete. She's amazing. The other thing that we've done
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: is we've shot our own stock photography. We've done eight
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: separate stock photo shoot. It's featuring a diverse range of
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: body types and races and ethnicities, you know, just to
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: make sure that when you see our content, you know
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that's self content.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: What I'm kind of interested in as you're kind of
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: homing in on what selfs brand is, how are you
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: doing at this time? Let's talk a little bit about you,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: because talk about first of all and your first year
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: establishing yourself that you're still there while this is all
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: going on, You're having a baby.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm getting increasingly pregnant by the day. I actually
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I guess you're pregnant one hundred percent the entire time,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: but I'm getting my belly is growing every day, let's put.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: It that way.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so the first try I don't know
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: if you're familiar with like things that are standard per trimester.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, everybody's pregnancy is obviously different, but like for me,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: it was fairly standard. The first trimester was really rough
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: in that I had this morning sickness that just lasted
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: all day long, all the time. And on top of that,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: so I was just nauseated one hundred percent of the time.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: And on top of that, I was just like extremely tired.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: That's like that's how you feel. You just feel exhausted
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: and nauseated. I was lucky that I wasn't actually barfing,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Like I have friends who had really really severe vomiting
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: during pregnancy, and I can't imagine being able to function
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: yeah with that. So I was lucky in that regard,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: but it was certainly unpleasant. Second trimester is actually great.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: You get your energy back. I got my energy back.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I stopped feeling so nauseated, and it felt like I
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: was a new person. So that was really nice. And
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: you're also like not so big at that point in
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: time that like things really really hurt. But then the
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: third time mister comes around and you're like, oh my god,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: walking is like waddling now, and this is painful, and
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: I can't sleep, and you're anxious about not sleeping because
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: you know that when the baby comes, you're really not
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: going to sleep.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: During this whole prop it was kind of an interesting experience,
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: just like being in my body, you know what I mean,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: and being like, what's going on today? This is weird? Yeah,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: totally or freaky or scary or interesting or whatever. So
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: it was just it was a lot of change happening
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: all at the same time.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: And while you're dealing with all of that change personally,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you're also dealing with all this change itself. And so
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: how did you feel like that really impacted your ability
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: to show up?
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: I think again, I was really lucky. I just like,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: like a common thread here throughout the whole thing is
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: that I just feel incredibly incredibly lucky because I was
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: able to being the boss meant that I was able
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: to set my own hours. Something that my mom has
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: said throughout my entire life. My mom had four kids.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: She was like this, she still is. She's just incredibly
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: incredibly successful doctor and scientist. And she was the dean
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: of a medical school at one point, and people always
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: asked her, like, how do you balance it all? And
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: and her answer I thought was like fairly honest, which
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: is like, you know, when you're the boss, you have
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: a lot more flexibility, and you also have a lot
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: more financial ability, right like you have you just have
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: the flexibility and the freedom to like have the help
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: you need and to set your hours. And it's like
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: there's not really advice there because it's you know what
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: you can. Not everybody is going to be able to
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: be the boss. I think like it's more it's more
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: of an insight into like the messed up nature of
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: our system that like that like only the well to
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: do or privileged can can really even get close to
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: having it all, you know what I mean, or balancing
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: it in that regard. But I thought about that a
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: lot during that during my pregnancy, like when I would
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: go to my doctor's appointments, which got more frequent the
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: farther along and new pregnancies you get, I'm like, I'm
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: really lucky that I don't have somebody breathing down my
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: neck and checking when I'm working at all, or like
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: let's say, you know, I was just feeling so nauseated
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: and I decided to work from bed one morning, Like
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: I was really lucky that I could do that right
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: and not have to worry about calling and sick or
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: asking a boss for permission to work from home like
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. I don't know if that answered
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: your question, but.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: That's what it does. It does, And I also think,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, this kind of carries over into when you
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: actually had your baby and you actually took a maternity leave,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: which was probably a lot of pressure at the time
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: for you because you're in the middle of building this
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: crazy brand, and I think because it's a wellness brand,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: you probably feel an equal amount of pressure to do
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do for you and your family,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: which is take some time and take a step back.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I do that. I felt like it
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: was definitely something I wanted to do, you know what
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I mean. Like that wasn't about like, oh, I have
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: to do the right thing here. That was like, I
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: need a break. I became editor in chief and I
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: worked every single day between that day and giving birth
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: to my baby. I did not take a single day off.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: That's including the weekends, which I would not advise. I
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: do not advocate this is not a smart or healthy
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: way to be, But at the time I felt like,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: I need to lay this groundwork and build up a
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: self sustaining business before I so that so that I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: can hand it off and feel comfortable handing it off.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: And part of that involved training or executive editor in
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: like my day to day job duties so that when
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I went on maternity leave, she could fill in for me, right,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: so she could step in and handle the task, and
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: then we would hire somebody to replace her. You know,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: that felt to me like a safer bet than hiring
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: some somebody from the outside to come in, because it's
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: just easier to navigate the building when you know all
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: the players, right. So that was always something like from
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: the minute I got pregnant, I was like, I need
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: to think about how I'm going to take this maternity
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: leave and how I'm going to set it up so
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: that I can take a maternity leave. But setting it
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: up and getting to the point where I could delegate
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: required working my ass off.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally totally. So you work your ass off and
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: you're taking your maternity leave, and do you feel all sorts?
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Do you still check in? Oh?
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh totally. Like let I don't let don't be fool.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Let's be clear here about what it meant for me
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: to take an attorney leave, which is to say that
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: I took a maternity leave, but I checked in. I
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: had weekly, like half hour to hour long meetings with
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: several of my direct reports, like once a week to
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: kind of help give them guidance or answer any questions,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: help them figure out how to put out fires. But
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: like that was at most like three hours of work
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: per week, right, And I was worried at the time
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: that was going to be too much, And honestly, it
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: was kind of nice. I really enjoyed it because it
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: helped me feel connected still with what was going on.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: And also like, like people talk about you never getting
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: any sleep when you are a new mom, and that's
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: totally true. But like during the day, the baby sleeps
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: like all day long, right, Like the baby not my
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: baby slept a lot and during the day asterisk during
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: the day, and I slept a lot too when she
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: was sleeping. But there were sometimes when I was just
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: like what am I doing? Like, so I watched I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: also watched a lot of grays anatomy, right, So I
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: didn't mind checking in and helping out and so on,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was actually a really really good
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: lesson for everybody involved. It helped me learn to delegate
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: more and like let go a little bit of like
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: the details, like I don't need I only need to
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: know the most important things, and it helped. It gave
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: the deputies on my team the autonomy to make the
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: decisions that they needed to make without having to get
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: approval from me. Right, So I think it was hopefully
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: a good experience for everybody, or at least a learning
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: experience for everybody.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Definitely, And what would you say overall? That the climate
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: is working itself like working at a super healthy, fuzzy
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: wellness brand.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: So one of the things, it's hard to talk about
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: the climate itself without talking about the climate in media
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: in general. And I keep coming back to this.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: It's tough time, Carolyn.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you knew. I don't know if
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: you knew.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Uh So.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Knowing how chaotic the media industry is and understanding what
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: that can do to somebody's anxiety or mental health.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Also, sorry, just to interject for a second, I think
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: if someone's listening, they might not understand like the depth
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: of what we're saying here about being chaotic. Yes, like
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: every industry is chaotic. But self folded the magazine two
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: years ago, and that is just one of a flurry
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: of print publication shuttering. There's so much chaos around where
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: the traffic's coming from. There's players like Facebook and Instagram
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: and social media as a whole that have the power
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: to decide or impact where the traffic is coming from.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: And so I think that's just the industry as a
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: whole is really in flux.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: It's really in flux. There's a lot of questions about
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: where the revenue is coming from, which is really the
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: scary thing. You know, the brands are amazing, but if
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: you know, you can have an amazing brand that you
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: have a really hard time monetizing. And I think a
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: lot of brands have seen that, and you see and
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: like the real Like when I talk about chaos, I'm
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: talking about layoffs across the board at every company everywhere
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: on a regular basis, and entire brands that people absolutely
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: love just folding completely. Like Rookie just folded right, and
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: that has been around for like seven years and had
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: a celebrity leading it and all this stuff.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: And Glamor just went digital.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Glamor just went digital only, which is like the end
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: of an era teen Fogue went digital only tons of
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: brands red Book, Yes, Like it's like it's like it's
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: maybe like more brands have gone digital or folded than
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: are still around. I mean that's not true, but like
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: it feels like it, and it's really scary and it
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: means that it means that jobs are getting scarcer, and
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: the jobs that people have they feel really insecure. And
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: it's and everyone knows people have been laid off and
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: like people tell these it's like gallows humor about like,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: well when are you going to get laid off?
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Have you?
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: How many times have you been laid off? Like we
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: have right, right, and we we have a friend I
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: don't know if you are you friends with Andy Andy
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Bart's No. Oh so Andy Barts is amazing. She just
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: wrote a book. It's great, and but she's worked at
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: five magazines in her career and every single one of
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: them has folded.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So so that's like the state of the industry.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Like look at Andy Bart's career. She's now a novelist
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and she's phenomenal.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: But okay, so self right, so sell what we can
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: talk about how hard it is to be publishing forever?
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: No, I know so, but I think it's related because
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: so you're like, how do you how do people what's
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: the atmosphere there?
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Like, right?
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: And so what I think about all the time is
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: things itself are actually great, Like we are doing incredibly well.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: We've doubled revenue, we're profitable, were we've reached traffic higher
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: than we've ever had, our video views are higher than
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: they've ever had, We've won all these awards. But it's
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: still a really scary time to be in this industry.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: And so I think about that all the time. How
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: do I how can I be a good manager to
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the point where people feel excited about working here and
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: everyone knows that it's scary, but they feel like the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: anxiety is worth it, right, right, And so there's a
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: lot of different things that we do, Like we have
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: really flexible working environment. You can work from home whenever
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: you want, anytime you want, no questions asked, as long
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: as you're getting your work done and communicating effectively. We
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: have a few people working entirely remotely because they're great,
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: because they do a great job, you know, I do.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: I'm really intentional about trying not to hire assholes, Like
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I just think like one bad person. One person who's
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: a mean person or a toxic person can like really
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: ruin an atmosphere. And it's really important that everyone I
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: hire is a kind person who's like supportive of other people,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: because I want people to be excited about coming to
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: work or feel good about who they work with things
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: like that. I also think like a good work environment
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: also kind of has to do with just like good
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: management one oh one, So being clear about what the
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: expectations are for somebody's job, giving clear feedback. Nobody should
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: be surprised if they're confronted with like not doing a
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: good job. They should know if they're meeting their expectations
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: or not.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: And they like mental health is caing itself.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think just like taking care of yourself,
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: taking sick days if you need to, even if you're
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: not physically sick, if you're if you're having if you
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: need a mental health day, take a mental health day,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that sort of thing. And
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: then obviously we always like a ton of we have
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: like three personal trainers on staff, so like fitness, people
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: care about fitness a lot, and and there's all that,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: but like we really live by our belief that health
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: is different for everybody. It means something different for everyone,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: and and you know, it's important to prioritize your health
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: and well being totally.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: If you had to look back right now on your
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: career as a whole, I mean, obviously you're in this
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: the helm of this major wellness brand and people probably
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: come to you for advice all the time. If you
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: had to reflect back on some of the best advice
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: that you've been offered in your career, what would you
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: what would you tell the people?
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: I still think that the best advice I've the best
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: advice I ever got was from Adam Campbell at Men's
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Health when I was like very, very junior, and I
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: made some crack about how well I was. I didn't
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: go into journalism for the money, and he was like,
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: and he was like, you know, you can make more money.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: The way you make more money is you got to
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: leave and then you got to come back, which is true,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Which is true. Yeah, and that's exactly what I did. Yeah,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: But I mean not because he told me that, but
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I thought I was really like he was my boss
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: at the time, and I thought it was really cool
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: that my boss was telling me that, Like the secret
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: to like really getting what I wanted from my career
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: was to play this game and to and to know
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: my value and and like I means that certainly didn't
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: make his life any easier when I left, you know
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: what I mean? But I thought it was it was
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: a really really amazing thing to say, because how would
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I know that, you know what I mean? Who nobody
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: told Like unless he had told me that, nobody else
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: would have told me that, right, I wouldn't have learned
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: on my own.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I totally hear that. I also think leaving in general,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: any job can be super scary, just because you're leaving
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: what is often a sense of security and a sense
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: of stability, and things are constant to the unknown. I
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: remember when I went to Rodale, I was leaving a
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: job where I got to write about like twelve different
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: topic areas. And I went to Rdale and I was
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: writing all help and wellness content, and I was scared
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: shitless because I thought I would be bored at Little
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: did I know at the time that making that transition
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: would literally change my entire life and now it would
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: be all I talk about all the time. But it's
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, change is scary.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Change is really scary.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, change is frightening. Okay, we're gonna wind it down here. Okay,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: you have an opportunity right now to offer the Carolyn
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: sitting down with Anna in her office a piece of
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: advice when she finds out that she's going to be
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: editor in chief and holy crap, I'm pregnant and what
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: is going to happen here? What do you tell her? Now?
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: It's funny. I was thinking about this earlier, and I
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: want to say, like, I would tell myself to not
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: work every single day, but I don't know that that's true,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: because I don't know that I would have actually gotten
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: it all done. To be honest with you, I think
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: the best piece of advice I could have given myself
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: back then is to pay more attention to how I
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: was feeling physically and not try and push myself so
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: hard physically, and tend to my needs, like be more
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: proactive about it. Like an example I can give you
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: is that it took me a really long time to
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: realize that the way to feel better when I was
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: nauseated was to eat something. Because when you're nauseated, when
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: you have a stomach bug, eating something does not help.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: But when I was nauseated while pregnant, having some popcorn
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: or some crackers or something made me feel better. I
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: basically almost passed out on the subway one morning, and
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: I was really lucky that at one of my colleagues
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: was there to like catch me and drag me off
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: the train, and she's like, what is wrong with you?
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: What happened? And I'm like, don't tell anybody's been pregnant.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: And she's like, don't you have popcorn in your purse?
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: And she like gave me popcorn from her verse and
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: it made me feel better, like immediately, And so I
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: started carrying popcorn with me literally everywhere I went, and
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: it was exactly what I needed. But it was one
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: of those things where if I had been paying more
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: attention to how I felt and recognizing my internal cues better,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: that wouldn't have been an issue.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: I think that kind of also goes back to the
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: constant piece of advice, which is just like, be more
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: honest with yourself and be like upfront about how you
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: feel and do a pulse check. I think so often
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: we're so busy running around from point A to point B.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: We're constantly holding our phones, we're looking at things and
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: we don't take that time to just take a step
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: back and say, Emily, how do you feel right now?
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Totally we don't do that. Yeah, we definitely don't. I
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: definitely don't. Still I still could use that advice.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Well, you're offering it right now, Carolyn, thanks so much
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: for sitting down with me today. I appreciate you.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: your doing such an amazing job with Hurdle. I'm not
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: at all surprised, but I'm just really really happy for
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: you and excited for you. You make me, You.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Make me smile at the smile. Please take a moment
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: to leave a quick review by clicking the link with
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: the description to this episode. We all face multiple hurdles
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: in life. I want to hear about yours. Reach out
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: to me at Emily at Hurdle dot us. Connect with
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: the podcast on Instagram and Twitter at Hurdle Podcast. Carolyn.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Where do they find you? Where do they find self?
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Give us the lowdown.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: You should follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Carolyn Kilstra,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: just my name and follows self at self Magazine, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: follow us on Snapchat. We're amazing on Snapchat, I do excellent.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: Another hurdle conquered. Catch you guys next time
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: You