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Writing is a Real Job—No, Seriously · Reality Writes

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of Reality Writes.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am Ellie Alexander and this is my tech guy husband.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And on this podcast, we peel back the layers and give you the nitty-gritty on everything that goes into the writing life.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: This week we are going to tackle the subject, no, really, writing is a job.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: We'll find out.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like it to me from what I've witnessed, yes.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Weird.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying that you see me working.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I've seen what?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You see me working.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I see you working all the time.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's strange because um there's a myth out there that writing is just bonbons and fun little story ideas that like come through and um then it magically just turns into a book.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's probably I mean, there might be some truth to that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might choose that as their writing style, right?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe they have a full-time job and they want to write.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but for you, for I don't know, what, 15 years?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um writing has been your job.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is it is a job.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: You do it Monday through Friday and Saturday and Sunday.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes, yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: But but I think um I think that's lost on a lot of people.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they they quite understand like how much time and dedication goes into it.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you want it to be your career, like if you want to make a living writing, it needs to be your job.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it it you can love your job, you know.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think there's a negative connotation too.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: With um, you know, sometimes if people are like, oh, well, I just want to write, I don't want to be creative.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just they let the creativity flow through me.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be tied down to a nine to five job.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I guess to work nine to five anymore.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wish I could work nine to five.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see you working nine to five.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's, you know, there's a lot to do.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and on the other um side of that, I would argue that some of my friends who are are writing professionally are still working full-time jobs too.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's even harder because you're working or you're managing a part-time or a full-time job and you're trying to get word count in.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I think on this episode, one of our goals is to dispel this myth.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Not that writing isn't fun, not that it's not creative, like you're saying, but if you are someone who was thinking about writing a book, like this is gonna be the episode for you to really hammer down and carve out time and space to make that happen.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and you know, just like, I mean, that's a good starting point, I think, is that, you know, um, we've been lucky enough that you get to do writing full-time, like that is your full-time job.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned you have friends who are professional authors um who have full-time jobs outside of writing, and then they they, you know, writing is secondary to that, but they treat that like jobs too, right?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so if we go back to the beginning, when I first decided that I was gonna start writing and I said to you, I'm gonna write a mystery, one mystery, maybe it'll turn into a series.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what did you think that was gonna look like?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I'm biased, but I I knew you.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew that you like if you were going to do this, it was gonna happen, number one.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: But number two, it was like you weren't going to just half-ass it.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was going to be you were gonna be all in and you were going to just start, like you were going to set an intention, set a ritual, and then just make it happen, like make it, you know, it would be fulfilled.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think people should know too that like at the time I was working full-time.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: We had a new, we had a new addition to the family.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was like there was a lot going on, but you And I was working full-time.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and you were working full-time, and and it you but you set like you you did what I thought you would do.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: You you structured it and you set like you set goals for yourself that were, you know, they were reached goals, but they were attainable if you followed your plan.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you, of course, followed your plan.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, but you know, when I think back to um, I did a lot of things wrong in those early years and a lot of things that I have learned um and tweaked in the process.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that I think I did really right was just be militant about my writing time.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was not easy at all.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because especially early on, I think there's also this pervasive myth that you can't call yourself a writer if you're writing, which is totally not true.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I completely disagree with that in every way, shape, or form.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you were writing or creating, you're a writer, like own that, breathe that, love it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But early on, I didn't feel like I could consider myself a writer either because I was like, well, I don't have anything published.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't finished a book yet.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really easy then if you have slotted out, let's say two or three hours a day as your writing time to be like, oh, you know, I'm gonna go meet a friend for coffee, or I'm gonna, you know, do all this other work around the house.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or um, but I was very firm about like protecting and guarding that time with my life.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you still are, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we like you have an you're in your office in our house, and that's that is your workspace.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you wake up in the morning, we have our coffee, we you don't talk and everything, and then um you usually go for a walk, and then you're in your office for writing time, and you write until you hit your word count.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's your job, and then the work does not stop.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's just the beginning of it.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I think there were a lot of uh even like friends and family initially who were like, well, you're not really writing.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: You don't, you there's nothing to show for it yet.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not really a job.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that that theme tends to show up a lot.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if that, because I don't have any experience in this realm, I don't know if that carries over to other creative endeavors, you know, maybe somebody who's taking up painting or music.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's this idea then that if you are creating in some way, that it's not work.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Which it absolutely is.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that that's the that's the thing.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is that the biggest myth uh of writing?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, what if you know what what do you think the biggest myth of writing is that that you wish you could just bust, that you could break right now, that you would could just do away with entirely for anyone to say.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do think it's that because the other thing that parallels onto this is um I I'm trying to, I wish that I had back in time made tally marks of everyone over the years who has said, like, hey, I would love to take you out for a coffee.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to take you out for coffee and pick your brain um so you can teach me how to write a book.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um what?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not that I mean, I try and have over the years, I've tried to share as much as I can.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I love being able to um give any little tips and tricks that I have learned that have worked for me.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the equivalent would be asking, like, a doctor or, you know, I don't know, an English professor, can you teach me how to write a curriculum for an entire year in over a coffee?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or can you teach me, you know, everything you need to know about open heart surgery?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just buy you a coffee and it'll be done.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that tethers back to the idea of breaking this myth that there isn't just a lot of structure and work that goes into creating a book then.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's, you know, with the the fact that anyone thinks that over coffee you could explain how to do anything.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I get that, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I got the all the tech stuff going, and and so it's like, hey, can you, you know, can you teach me how to do this?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, that took me four years to learn how to do.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So do you have four years?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't to teach you, but you know, to you.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's it it like I think if people follow you on social media and stuff, they've seen you shared a wealth of content and continue to do so.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, this podcast is one of the things, right?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but uh just to anyone who asks you to go to coffee, take you to coffee to learn how to write, like they they don't understand, and and that that's the thing where it's like they don't understand the commitment necessary to do the level of writing that you do.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are all sorts of levels of writing, I guess, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody just wanted to write as a hobby, that's totally different.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But this again, getting back to the topic, you this is your job.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is what you do.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And before I even started writing mysteries, I had done that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I minored in creative writing.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I took every class and workshop, I went to every writer's conference, I did a mentorship, I read every book.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was a decade plus of just really immersing myself in the world before I even just wrote one sentence.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then my first book took me three years to write.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's that idea.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no shade to anyone because I probably early on in my writing career would have, if I had bumped into an author bin the same way, like, oh, can I just buy you a coffee and you'll suddenly impart this wisdom?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now I will say, I, oh, this lives in my brain forever.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I did an event.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you're gonna, this will um bring up the memory for you because it takes a lot to get me really angry, but there are times when I can get very angry and then it all comes out.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I got invited to speak at this luncheon.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was with a group of new and inspiring author, aspiring authors.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was a lovely lunch.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was talking kind of about finding an agent and, you know, sharing and imparting as much knowledge as I could on my own time for free with this group, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this one woman, I was answering another writer's question, and this woman raised her hand and cut me off like midstream, and she's like, Hey, uh, yeah, I don't care about you or your books or what you're talking about.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just here.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is verbatim.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am just here so you can give me your agent and get me uh connected with your agent.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: What the hell?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, that's a no.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a hard pass.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's like that's the the and there are there are those people out there, right, that that try to shortcut it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like they can get and and the funny thing is, had you given that woman your agent's contact information, one, he probably wouldn't have been happy, but two, uh there's no way she would have been assigned to because you can just tell, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell the the people that are just trying to to get to the next step without putting in the work.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's I think that's where a lot of the writing isn't a job attitude comes from, is that people think, you know, well, you can just you can take a master class uh um, you know, and in five minutes you can watch all these videos and then you can just write.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a there's the work aspect of it behind the like there are videos that can teach you, you have videos that can teach people how to write, but that's just the instructional piece.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't, it's not like watching those videos suddenly magically makes words appear on the page.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have to do the work.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, the thing is, though the those experiences are few and far between.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, like the vast majority of people who I come in contact with are so lovely and gracious, and I want to share knowledge.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: But also, like, if you're gonna come at that lens and just be like, look, I'm gonna cut you off.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to know anything about you, or I'm just here because I'm getting your agent.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh no.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I mean, I think that's so true.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the reasons we eventually decided to create the course was for this very reason.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because over the breadth of my career writing, I was like, I do, I want to be able to go to coffee, but there's no humanly possible way I could go to coffee with, you know, 200 people and be like, all right, let's start with our one.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, so I can't remember.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Spend all your money on coffee because it would take hundreds of hours of coffee shop meetups to teach.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be rich in coffee.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: That would not be such a bad thing, I guess.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't need a third job then.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be able to write my own books.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I'm trying to remember back because it's been a while since I looked at the course, but I want to say it's like 70 different videos.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: So just that alone is the idea of like, it's a step-by-step by step process of learning.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you can learn that, you don't have to learn that from me.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can learn that from tons of other writing teachers, much like any other job.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you're studying to be a dentist, you're gonna have step-by-step things that you progress and you build on.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so speaking of step-by-step process, why don't you describe your process?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're uh, what what does a day in the life of Ellie Alexander look like in terms of in from the lens of writing is a real job?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Writing is a real job.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I am in the middle of drafting a book, well, whenever I'm working on a new project, I am here in this space.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, as soon as I go out for my walk, I am back here and I do not leave this office short of, you know, like some sort of snack break or to walk around briefly.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't leave this office.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or more coffee, sure.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't leave this office until I have hit my word count, which is now 2,000 words every day.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Every day.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: 2,000 words.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: So for somebody who is thinking about starting to write, that might sound well, really, really scary.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what like we'll put that in terms of pages for for the non-writers out there, because like me, like I don't how many pages would that be?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I uh it's usually anywhere from 12 to 15 pages.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: 12 to 15 pages, okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if that's not enough to convince everyone that writing is really a job, I don't know what is, because I like, you know, show of hands audio podcasts, like one way uh each mess here.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: How many people think they could write 12 to 15 pages a day?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh of, you know, but but talk about those 12 to 15 pages.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are they perfect?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, they're terrible.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're terrible.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're not, I mean, with time they've gotten slowly better at I've gotten slowly better at a first draft, but a first draft is just meant to get the story out to the page.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, but and again, this is why it's also about learning the structure and plot, like becoming an expert as much as you can about that piece, and then also finding your own path.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I certainly have writing friends who have a completely different style than me, a different process that they take, and that's that's all okay.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for me, I always have an outline that I start with.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know who the killer is.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you listen to our very first episode, the killer has changed sometimes.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sterling.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I am writing almost like a screenplay.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's pretty it's pretty bland.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then once the book is done, the first draft, then I'm gonna go back and layer in all of the uh lovely sensory details and that sort of thing.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I mean that's that's important, you know, because the um I'm sure there's some writers who might be listening, they're like, oh yeah, but I don't I don't do it that way.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's totally fine, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like any job.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh, you know, no matter what the end goal is, there are different ways to to get it done.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, different levels of commitment or the just the ability to block out time like that.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um but how long does it take you to do 2000 words?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do like there is it easy every day?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Does it take longer?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah some days, yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like magic every day.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just magic.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean no, but I mean I think people think that, right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, talk a little bit about like what happens on the days when you sit down and you get like two words into the, you know, your writing, and you're like your mind just goes blank.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think those are days that you see me if if you're working from home, um, and I happen to- which I do not do very often, by the way.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: It just didn't work out.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I was thinking even when back in like in the days of the pandemic when we were all working from home.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, those were the days, weren't they?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm probably not super friendly uh if I happen to pass by you in the kitchen, because I'm like wrapped up in my headspace, and you might want to be like, oh hey, how's it going?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've learned that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with this threat, it's gonna go.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time when I want to share something with you, it's totally meaningless or about Star Wars or something anyway.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I you're gonna even even if you weren't in that space, I don't know how interested you'd be.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: But knowing that you are in that space, I'm just like, you know, just a smile and like keep my head down and I'm gonna tell I'm gonna wait for you to get done with the coffee machine that I'm going in there, you know.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can go right back to it.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do not come in at the same time.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's usually what I would do if I if I get stuck.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would like physically move around.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm the kind of writer who talks to myself, I like music, um, all of those things.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's just that is part of the job too.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: It would be like for you at the end of the day, if you had client work and you're like, I'm just not vibing on it today.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I'm just not gonna do it, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it's due tomorrow.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's due tomorrow, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you would get fired.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:58
  unknown: Right.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am in the same place.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would just have to fire myself, or I would never get a contract renewed, or I would never have a book finished.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I there is some of that, you know.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's about your intrinsic versus external motivation.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if I don't hit those 2,000 words, then I know I'm gonna, that's gonna extend the draft by days, weeks, months the longer that goes on.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's another thing that uh early on I was pretty committed to.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was not my goal was never 2,000 words.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I was trying to remember back.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 500 words.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure I started at 500 words, which felt like a huge stretch.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that's that's uh that's like anything too.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing this a long time.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, start with uh like uh something of a what you consider a reach goal and then start working at it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as you develop that process and develop that um system and everything, you you then have to keep setting that bar higher and higher and higher.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: It goes for anything, really.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so again, writing is just the same as any other job.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you, you know, as you the longer you do it, the better you get at it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, for the most part, the easier it comes to you.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are still times where you're gonna struggle with things that you know you you get frustrated because it should be easy, but it's not.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but I think that's yeah, I mean, I think that is another thing that makes it um uh just like any other job, is is just that that learning and and continually resetting the goals.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which is one of the coolest parts, you know.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think then once you've finished one book, you're like, oh my gosh, I did one.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now maybe I can do two, or a new story comes or a new plot develops.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then there's also all of the other things that go into writing, like we covered on the last episode.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's the marketing and promotion, and then all of the editorial side of the book business too.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think again, there's this idea because it's something fun and creative, which it absolutely is, that there's no um sort of grunt work involved.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say drafting is often grunt work because you're just trying to sort of slog through.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, like some of my writers' friends might just absolutely love that stage of drafting too.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I do some days, and some days not so much.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's everything else that goes along with it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you said something a minute ago that that reminded me you talked about uh, you know, during the the pandemic when we were all working from home and everything.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that changed things for a lot of people.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it has gotten a little bit better, but you've been writing a lot, you sure were writing a long time before the pandemic happened.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you you've always worked from home because that it's not like you we weren't paying fifteen hundred dollars a month for you to have an office outside the home that you could go to to uh you know to to write in.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you've been working from home, and I think uh for a lot of people.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, well, you just get to work from home.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: It must be so nice.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can just be watching TV, or you can you can always, you know, you can just like be doing other hobbies and and things and and then write whenever you want and everything.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you've never been like that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not been a reality.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, uh, if you don't, then you never have a finished book, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think for any new writers, the my my biggest piece of advice is always just get that first draft done.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then like all of the magic really does start to happen because you have something to work with.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the other thing is that this idea of, you know, when you get blocked or stuck, you just have to write through that most of the time.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and maybe what you end up with on the page is not fantastic, but you know you can come back and fix it later.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're doing a first pass at like let's say a project for a client, it's not always going to be the finished product, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, we I mean we we go through, you know, a lot of iterations before the client even sees the work.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then even once the client sees the work, it's like, you know, it's usually three or more rounds of review where they make what we think are ridiculous changes, but you know, it always happens.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh because like uh the other thing that makes um writing just like really any other creative job is very subjective.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the the end result.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you may think that your draft is perfect, and then you send it off to your editor and you get, you know, this pay, you know, this manuscript back that's just marked up, and and it's like, and then there's this whole debate process.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a whole thing, right?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: That it's like, and that's exactly like other jobs.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like the advertising world, you know, we might agency might think we've got like a perfect uh campaign for a client and they don't think they don't agree.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and then we have to change things to, you know, to uh find that perfect place that where they're happy with it.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like today, before we started filming the podcast, I was working my way through page proofs of the next bake shop mystery, and it is just so tedious because at this stage, I have edited the book myself three or four times.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: After I do that first draft, then I'm doing multiple layers for my bake shop series.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm adding in recipes, you know.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I have touched it at least five or six times.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I, whenever it gets to the point of like, I can't see this anymore, that's when I know it's time to send it to my editor.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: In the early days, though, I had you and like some of my friends, and I had a whole crew of beta readers who were giving me feedback to help me strengthen the work.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that would come even before I sent it to an editor.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: But now then it's the editor, and we go through developmental edits together on a book, and then the copy editor touches it, and we go through another round of edits there.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then this last thing that happens are page proofs.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And this is literally like I'm going through and making sure that there's not an extra space after a sentence, or I just found that there wasn't an ending quotation mark, you know, just tedious.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I have seen this book so much that I'm like, I don't even know how I'm catching anything.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's I I can always tell when you're in the page brief phase because you you you get a little bleary-eyed when you if they come out of your office, you're just like, oh no.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, it's funny.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned I used to, I used to do, I used to be a beta reader, but honestly, like you write so many books now.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't I can't keep up.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a fast reader, so I'm like halfway through a book and and I'm like, hey, it's gonna take me a few more days to finish this.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, I sent that off like three days ago.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I got this one.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've got that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that enough like, oh, okay.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been I've been replaced for sure.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that's okay.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I think that's important to talk about too early on, like that it really also then takes this whole team and village uh to send a book out into the world.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I needed, and you were a great beta reader too, because you would provide constructive, honest feedback, which is so important.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't just like, oh, this is the best thing I've ever read, or this is absolute shit.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: You need to burn it, right?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: You were a good middle ground.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was fun.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I got especially early on in the Bake Shop series.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I got to read a lot of them.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Sloan.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Sloan.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was that was that was a passion project because it was about beer.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to, I definitely had to be involved in that one, I think.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well well, you've talked a lot about the um, you know, writing full-time and and the things that go into it and everything.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what are like what are a couple of pieces of advice you'd give somebody if they were thinking about like, okay, I I really like writing.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is something I want to do as a career, and they want to do it as a job full-time.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: What what what would you say to them?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I say take yourself seriously.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, treat this like you would be treating any other professional career choice.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's like, there's this distinction sometimes of people who in the industry who take themselves very seriously.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to not take myself very seriously, but I take the work extremely seriously.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's an important, I mean, maybe it's semantics, but it seems like an important point of distinction to me that I'm gonna do everything I can to learn as much as I can about the craft, to improve, to find new editors and people to work with who are gonna challenge me and continue even at this phase of my career, like writing new projects and working with new publishers and editors who are also collaborating and helping me grow and stretch.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just I think that's so important to treat it like a profession because it is one.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Spoiler alert, it is.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think uh from a from a technical uh point of view, another thing you can do really is uh and and it's so much easier now.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I would never have given this advice 10 years ago, but now it like in 10 minutes, you can set up a website.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: You you can you can like use Canva, design a cool business card and print those up for really you know inexpensively, but you can get a website up.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to have a book to have a website, you can just start building your author persona and and just start a blog, blog about your your your writing adventure, like you know, get that stuff out there.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then when people ask what you do and you want to say, I'm a writer, and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, like everybody sits a writer, you'll be like, No, here, you can go read about it here, or here's my business card, you know, whatever.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it legitimizes it for the people who I think uh would normally just kind of treat it as like, oh, isn't that cute?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're a writer, like that's that yeah, it's so nice.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's like, wait, what?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: That makes no sense.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a job, it really is.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, really, it is a job.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: What other uh what other tech advice do you have for somebody who's starting out?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I I mean, I think, you know, to one of the biggest things I think would be to connect with other writers.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like and and that's made so much easier now with with the internet and and and all the um uh social media and and opportunities that are out there to really kind of like follow other authors like yourself and engage with them.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just follow them and read their posts and everything, but comment on their posts and and make that connection and get to know them because you will find you'll start to see themes because all the successful writers out there, the people who do this full time for a living, they will be talking about the same things.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: They will be talking about setting aside time every day to hit your word count.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: They will be talking about like focusing on you know the task at hand and not just continually putting it off and saying, well, I don't like this part of the process, so I'll just do that later, because you'll never get that done.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I think uh I think connecting with people, um, especially online, and and you can probably talk a little bit about doing it more in person, but um, but I think that especially through social media and stuff, there's just there's a wealth of opportunity to connect with people like yourself who are willing to share information that way.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there's just there is so much information out there.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would say use it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh, you know, use use what is available and and learn from it and and try to make those connections.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um I was so nervous early on in my career to meet authors who I had admired for a long time.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I quickly learned like there's just such lovely support and collaboration within the writing community.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like the vast majority of writers are going to want to share their knowledge and welcome you in and be excited to talk books and all of those things with you, especially if you show up in an authentic way.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you come in and you're like, uh, no, I don't like you.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to know anything about your books, give me your agent.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then you might maybe not be with such kindness.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, and that's another myth, I think, that there's this idea that as creative types that we're all trying to like cut each other down, like not true at all.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I read, as you well know, prolifically.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's all I do in my free time.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there there's not enough time in the world for me to be able to get my hands on all of the books that I want to read.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, in no way, shape, or form do authors think, oh, you're only gonna read my book and I don't want you to read anyone else's.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's never gonna happen either.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just there, there's if you think about um, so for the people out there who are worried about that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: The darlings.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, sorry, the darlings out there are worried about that.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, think about how much content you consume in an average month.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, just if you're a reader, how many books do you read a month?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you're you're just never going to uh you know, you're never going to be able to consume it all.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's just so much out there.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like you know, it's not competitive.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: It it's it's very supportive.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's what that's been one thing that's been really great to see is just the number of um author, authors that you you have you know that you call dear friends now and and that have you've had relations with relationships with for years.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's been it's been really inspiring.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I think we all are like reading is good for everybody.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the the another parallel community for this, I think for you, is the beer industry is like that a lot too.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you see that uh a lot, and and we got to experience this firsthand with the Sloan series and all the brewers that we met that you know that we've had the um honor of meeting over the years and and just talking to.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And not one of them badmouths another brewery.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like they many of these people do collaborations with other breweries and they release beer because the thing is, like it beer is just like books, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a lot to choose from.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not going to build a community by cutting others down.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you're gonna pull people from somebody else's community over to your community because you say that your thing is better than their thing.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't work that way.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, that just solidifies you as a negative person, and it will it will shrink your community or it will build it of people that you don't want associated with you.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to attract all the negative energy?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, come over this way.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: What does Taylor say?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need to calm down, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: You need to calm down.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: You do just calm down.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's one of the best things.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, again, speaks to the fact that no, really, writing is a job because in other professions, you're going to have colleagues in the field.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I keep going back to doctors as an example.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you have like uh maybe it's because in my previous life I was a speech therapist.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I should use an example that is true for me.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I would go to speech therapy conferences and learn so much from my fellow speech therapists.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: We would collaborate.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're doing that with, you know, S blends.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let me try that too.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: The same is true in the professional writing community.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're bouncing ideas off of each other.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're learning from each other.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, oh my goodness, how wonderful.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna take that tip, or I'm gonna try that marketing idea, or I loved your book, so I'm gonna make sure that my readers know about your books too.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what if uh what if somebody doesn't want to write for the money?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like what if somebody listening, one of the darlings listening is like, oh, but you know, you're you're just doing it for the money.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I write just, you know, because I want to write.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like what what would you say to somebody uh that that said that to you?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, don't do it for the money because I know.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just people have a misconception of that.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought we should talk about we are gonna, we're gonna do a whole, like we were talking about before, we need to do a whole episode on book math because um don't quit your day job.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the short term.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I did not quit my day job for many, many, many, many years.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Any kind of writing, whether you're going traditional or independently, it's it's a long game.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's what my agent would say early on.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a long game, which is true.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I still want to write for the love of the craft.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I want to write because I want to tell these stories.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not thinking in my head, like, oh, okay, if I, you know, if I have jewels go here and do this, that somehow that might skyrocket my sales, or, you know, with my new series that's coming out in a month or so, um, you know, this is going to be the series that is gonna bring in, you know, millions and millions of dollars.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just not usually the reality for writing.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Much like any other profession, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're working your way up through a job, it's gonna be, you know, you maybe get slow raises over the years and everything.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you can also write just for the sheer love of writing and not want to publish anything or just share something with friends and family.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that is absolutely valid.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I have a few coaching clients that I work with one-on-one, and and that's all that they want to do.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and maybe that will change after they've written a few things and maybe it won't, but it doesn't matter.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm a firm believer, like I said at the beginning, that anyone who's creating and putting creative energy out into the world is um doing something right.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's I'm so glad you said that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, the the part about like we're out outside of the money, the making a living piece, it's it's because you love writing and you love the creativity and and everything.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um talk a little bit about how you balance that, how you balance the creative side of it, which is the writing of the books, the concepting, the like all of the creativity that goes into that with the gotta get it done business side, because there's that, like our last episode.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think we talked a little bit about that, but there is a ton of work that goes into that.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And those two things have to compete a lot with each other, right?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you how do you balance it?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: How how would you tell somebody to balance that uh that was getting into this?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think I think the balance is that you have to love what you're writing to start with.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so that drives everything else.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that creative lens then hopefully gets to bleed into your marketing efforts.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully that gets to be part of the editorial experience.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you're working with an editor, like I was saying, who's going to try to make your work stronger.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're going through all of these rounds of that piece or looking at page proofs, I don't really have any advice for page proofs because that's not your favorite.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I think I think if you still approach that, that like at the end of the day, the final product that you get to share with readers with our darlings is a finished book, then it's really easy to stay focused on that mission.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think the way that for me, my process works, it is kind of segmented out.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this early phase is so much more ethereal, and it is about like, ooh, I could take this idea and what if this happened?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's kind of the like hard and fast.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now I'm in word count, and then I'm in edits, and then I'm marketing.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: So each phase along the way of a book has such a different energy to it.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that definitely, well, and it is kind of recharging to you, like um uh it charges you up, right?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you finish the writing phase and you're like, okay, this is I'm exhausted and everything.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then, and and you might look at okay, now the marketing phase, it you know, you're still exhausted from the previous phase, like it's harder to jump into it.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you think about it, like, well, now you get to put this thing that you've worked so hard on out in the world, and that that gets really uh that's exciting for my end.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't do the writing, but like it's always really fun to work with you on marketing books and like growing your reader community and everything.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that is that I mean, I can speak from from working in an entirely different job and then thinking about this on top having to do this on top of that sometimes is like, oh, you know, then that's gonna be a lot of work.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: But once we get doing it, it's really fun.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this podcast, right?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where like we're we're not getting we're not on the clock like getting paid for doing this.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is just we're doing this because this is fun and it it is another great way to connect with people and to kind of spread great information and just fun content and and uh give back a little bit too.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then the beautiful thing is by the time I work my way through all of those phases, and then I'm like, whoo, I can't market this book anymore because I've seen it too many times, then it's time to start a new fresh story, and you're like, ooh, okay, brand new shiny book.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think for me as a Gemini personality, like writing is definitely the perfect profession for me because you get to see something start to finish.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, just when I get bored with it, I have a new project that I get to tackle, that happens again, and it's just it's a constant struggle.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Personally, I like the I like the brainstorm in the concepting phase the best because that usually means we get to go to a brewery or a pub or something and and have a beer or two while we're talking about things, which is I mean, personally, that's my favorite.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's a great segue because I was just gonna say, now that I'm done with my page proofs for the day, I feel like it's time to go sit outside and start talking about book five of the secret bookcase mysteries, because that's what I'm writing next.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your first darlings.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Book five.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, book five.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost I like work in the next room.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I live with you, and I already lost track of the number of books in that series.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's crazy.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: The series that has not yet come out either at this stage when we're filming this podcast.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's also that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh huh.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, so the the the brainstorming phase and and getting out, and I don't want to, I don't want to I don't want to keep those cold beers much longer.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to I won't I won't uh take up too much more time.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that that's an important point, I guess.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like for somebody who's writing who maybe doesn't have um a uh partner in crime.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, see what I did there.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um that that they can bounce ideas off of and everything, like how important is it that they get out and they meet uh other writers, other readers?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, how like uh how important is it that they do that or either in person or online or or anything?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and like how has that helped you over the years?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's really hard to do this in a vacuum.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful to you, to like, you know, so many friends over the years, and now like my broader writing community.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think any opportunity that you have to connect with, especially new writers.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, okay, here's one last myth of what we maybe we should do a whole podcast about this topic, though, because there's also this um fear, I think early on that someone's gonna steal your idea.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, the steal your idea and fear.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which is just not gonna happen.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there's space for everything, and everything has been done.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Star Wars is Shakespeare.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we could go on and on and on, right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like the epic hero's journey has been done a thousand times over.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's your own lens, it's your own perspective, it's how you tell that story.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it is hard to create completely in a silo.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: So finding Any kind of connection or support that you can to just even have there's so much magic that comes out of brainstorm brainstorming sessions a lot of times that doesn't even make it on the page.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that usually sparks so many future ideas because you are living in your head and you need somebody else to like reflect and bounce ideas back off of.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's so true.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it also helps with that subjectivity piece, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because writing is an art form and not everybody's gonna get your art.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are gonna hate it, in fact.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they're probably gonna put in a review online about it and it's gonna make you angry.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, like, who cares, right?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you it like you're if you're writing for yourself and you're writing the story that you want to write, like it it really shouldn't matter what what other people think.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you have a group of people that you can rely on that will tell you up front this is crap, like you you need to change this one really important piece.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of people that are saying that, that's really good feedback, and you should probably listen to it because it will be perceived that way by the broader audience too.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but I think that really helps because it's and and getting people like you said, like not just your you know, your mom or your dad or you know, somebody that's gonna be like, this is the greatest thing I've ever read.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you need people who are gonna be real with you, and and you know that those can be close friends.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh the the friend that you know will tell you that you have something hanging out of your nose is the one you want reading your early drafts, right?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh yeah.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, on that note, um, I think you can be that friend and we'll uh we'll go have a touch.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I love it.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so until next time.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Writing is a job.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: Writing is a job.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is right, it is a real job.