Latest / Project Podcast / Mind the gap: The human side of project management

Transcript

Mind the gap: The human side of project management · Project Podcast

0:09
Hello and welcome to the APM podcast brought to you by the
0:11
childhood body for the project profession.
0:14
The focus of today's episode is the people side of change
0:17
including the challenges associated with the neighboring
0:19
teams to thrive and bring about meaningful change through
0:22
projects to understand more about change management.
0:25
A p.m. senior business development manager, Gavin
0:28
Spencer sat down with two Project professionals from the
0:31
life sciences sector side. Hoskinson is a senior it program
0:35
manager at Thermo. Fisher Scientific, and Joe
0:38
Stanford is head of corporate portfolio office at health
0:41
education, England, listen on to hear them chat with Gavin, about
0:44
bringing people on a change Journey.
0:46
The importance of starting with y and the role of Neuroscience
0:50
and project success Thanks for taking the time out today to
0:58
speak with us today. Joe and Sal.
1:00
Thank you. So we're talking change
1:02
management today and project management and the both areas
1:05
that I know are very close to your heart.
1:07
So before we get into the main part of the session, how about
1:11
we take just about 2 minutes, each just to introduce
1:15
yourselves, if that's okay and SOB.
1:17
Can we can we jump over to first?
1:20
Thank you, Gavin. So my name is our past concern
1:23
and currently work at Thermo Scientific within the corporate
1:28
division, leading the it corporate illegal, and real
1:32
estate portfolio. Crave started 17 years ago
1:38
within testing, as part of a sandwich year, whilst I was
1:42
studying at Microsoft and it sort of took off from there,
1:45
really realizing that I was kind of eventually in the wrong kind
1:49
of profession. As I was more, kind of strategic
1:51
than detailed and moved into project management 15 years ago.
1:55
Go, I am qualified in prints to add car and actually there was a
2:02
little story around why I went into the following
2:04
qualifications and that's organizational, ta for which I
2:07
studied part-time for four years and given that I am in project
2:12
management and have been I think change has been an integral part
2:16
and underlying Foundation to any of the projects that have been
2:21
delivered which will move onto shortly.
2:25
Fantastic. You and Joe if we can go as you
2:28
please, hello? I'm Joe Stanford.
2:31
And I am head of the corporate portfolio office at health
2:35
education England, which is the education commissioning arm of
2:38
the NHS. I also have been leading a
2:42
program to develop the project and change profession in
2:45
healthcare. And my background, I started off
2:50
actually in the arcs. My first career was as a
2:53
lighting designer of the theater.
2:55
I only realize now quite how much that influence the way in
2:58
which I work with my team and how much of a collaborative
3:03
production team kind of dynamic, I've created and sort of
3:08
encouraged others to create because it is a very
3:12
collaborative and future Focus way of working, but I've worked
3:17
in the private sector. I've worked in central
3:19
government and the last nine years, I've been working in the
3:22
NHS and I'm a chartered project, professional.
3:25
With the IPM. And something I think is really
3:28
great for people to be able to work towards.
3:31
But I'm also a fellow of the APM and development of the
3:33
profession is a real driving passion for me and in terms of
3:37
change management. I think this is a whole area
3:40
that needs a lot more attention. It's really about how do we take
3:44
people on the Journey of change and how do we engage people?
3:48
What are the ways we go about it?
3:50
And this is an area that I think could do with a huge amount of
3:54
investment in thinking. Development and collaboration.
3:59
Fantastic. Thank you both and just to add a
4:02
bit of a side note. So this podcast is a part of a
4:05
series of activity, that APM is running really to raise the
4:09
awareness of project management within the life science,
4:13
pharmaceutical and Healthcare sectors.
4:15
So we're really excited about the campaign and our Direction.
4:17
It's going to traction. It's starting to gain.
4:20
So really excited about this, this session.
4:23
And let's, let's really start off.
4:26
Jump in with what your definition is when we talk about
4:29
change management. So Joe should we should we go to
4:32
first and then stop? Yeah, that's great.
4:35
So so for me I mean there are definitions around change
4:39
management and I think it's about what we do about it.
4:43
Not what we necessarily agree that it is.
4:46
It's how do we make a difference with it for change management is
4:48
really the the people side of change.
4:51
So it's not the technical product development, it's about
4:55
the people. All the processes, the ways of
4:57
working. It's the end-users how you get
5:00
people to deliver the, the new thing that you're creating and
5:05
how do you make it become sustainable?
5:07
And it's, it's the process for taking people on that Journey
5:10
from my perspective. Fantastic.
5:13
And so what's your take on that? So I think change management for
5:18
me is right on point. What Joe's saying they're right,
5:21
it's such an exciting topic and I think it's such an integral
5:24
part. Of personal lives as well as our
5:28
organizational drive towards, you know, our vision Etc.
5:32
So I think that for me, you know, change is about
5:37
identifying and addressing, you know what, it's not working or
5:41
what is starting to strain at the seems a little bit because
5:44
one day it did work. And now, you know, as we sort of
5:47
progress through years and years of economical growth, you know
5:53
what, starting to strain. In a little bit.
5:56
And and and really looking at, you know, are focusing on those
6:00
kind of areas and looking at what we need to improve going
6:03
forwards and to Joe's point, you know, it's it's it's people that
6:07
deliver change and its people that deliver projects and you
6:12
know, a lot of the time people come to a solution that needs to
6:16
be in place and when we talk about solution, people talk
6:18
Technologies and it's just so much more than Technologies.
6:23
It's about the people, the processes.
6:26
The industry and the market changed that we having to
6:29
deliver to and making the world a better place to live in.
6:32
And also the cultural changes that there need to go alongside
6:36
the change within our organizations because we don't
6:39
just put a change in place and hope for the best and hope it
6:44
sort of scales to our future growth and supporting that, you
6:48
know, change. We need a fantastic leadership
6:51
behind us which is I'm sure is a different topic and a different
6:55
just for you having but you know, making sure that it
7:00
encompasses all those areas. And that's just a few right?
7:03
That we've mentioned here. There's loads of tools and
7:06
techniques out there. But really is about the people
7:11
and have we got the right skill sets in place.
7:13
Understand you know, what we're looking to change?
7:17
Why is it a problem? And really kind of breathe that
7:21
in and and really look to move forwards with a Good team in
7:26
place coming forward. So that's for me in my context.
7:32
Fantastic, that's a brilliant summary.
7:34
I remember reading a quote, once I think it was from Charles
7:36
Darwin, that red, it's not the strongest or the most
7:38
intelligent, who will survive? But those who can best manage
7:41
change. I thought that really
7:42
encapsulate the points that you were, you both made their so
7:48
every project for my perspective delivers in one way or another
7:51
but that's maybe talk briefly about why projects fail to
7:54
deliver the the intended. Value.
7:55
So it's you think there's too much, greater focus on the
7:59
process and technique and maybe not enough to understand the
8:03
people side of change. I think this is a really
8:07
critical point and I concerns meant that we focus on the day
8:13
that the binary split between success and failure, because I
8:18
think very few projects fail to deliver anything, in that case,
8:22
they've successfully delivered something, but that, the real
8:26
critical point is, what is it? Why are you doing it?
8:29
What is it? You're intending to achieve, and
8:31
are you actually achieving the value that actually required at
8:35
ultimately? To make a difference to your
8:38
environment to your customers, your service users or and the
8:45
problem for me with focusing on product product development in
8:49
terms of project delivery, is that doesn't mean that you're
8:53
actually achieving your outcomes you've created something, but if
8:56
nobody's using it, you haven't created the value.
8:59
And if people aren't engage with it, you haven't actually made a
9:02
difference. And I think we need to shift the
9:05
focus. Itís much more to measuring the
9:10
intended value. So what value which were we
9:13
trying to create what and how do we measure that?
9:16
And a lot of that is down to the amount of use that the people
9:20
using your product for. So if you develop an app and
9:24
only 10 people use it, but you wanted a million people to use
9:27
it, you not created the value that was intended and I think
9:32
so. Tim Creasy from Pro sigh, he
9:35
coins this. Really.
9:36
Well, if you think about the the number of users that you want to
9:41
engage and that you want to have using your new way of working or
9:45
change their behaviors or processes, the measure of the
9:49
value is measuring the number and the the extent to which they
9:53
are actually engaging. And you can do that by looking
9:57
at the data in terms of the end users, not the product output.
10:02
And in order to do that, we need to really understand be able to
10:06
measure what that intended outcome should be.
10:10
What's the value we're trying to create?
10:12
How do we measure that? How do we know that the people
10:15
are using it engage with it? And this really isn't a project
10:19
function because the projects often finished by the time, a
10:22
lot of the embedding of the product takes place and in my
10:27
world in in the public sector in healthcare, we tend to separate
10:31
out project management and change management on sort of
10:34
fairly big project complex projects.
10:36
Because the products and the the processes have been delivered,
10:40
but the change manager is there to ensure that the value is
10:43
created by embedding and implementing them across the
10:47
environment that which to you wish to influence.
10:51
And so, where I think we aren't achieving sufficient value is
10:56
because we're not putting enough focus and emphasis on all of the
11:00
effort and and activity that needs to take place on the
11:03
change management side, which is around engaging influencing
11:08
collaborating and embedding the products that are being
11:12
developed so that the value can be generated and measured and
11:17
then the success ultimately defined Right?
11:21
Okay. That's, that's really
11:23
interesting. What, what are your thoughts on
11:25
what Joe just said to sob? I think it's absolutely spot-on
11:30
and I'm glad you mentioned the pose.
11:31
Prosy, I'd car piece of it because I think that for those
11:36
that haven't been on that it is about creating that kind of
11:40
awareness desire knowledge ability and reinforcement,
11:43
right? So behind any project a project
11:46
will only ever start off because there is a need for that change
11:49
because a company. Is invested in that change.
11:52
They need that to be implemented.
11:55
Now, when we look at change, you know, and we look at exactly
12:01
what Joe is said. We shouldn't bucket these into
12:04
failure or success, right? It's about kind of every project
12:08
will deliver to a certain degree.
12:11
The question is, is it a six-week project or is it a
12:14
five-year project if you are delivering to the original scope
12:18
and the original brief to what we said?
12:21
On a five-year project. Then something's not, right?
12:24
Yeah. We live in a market trending
12:26
changing environment. So for me when we look at
12:31
projects failures in one way or another the biggest the fact
12:35
that we go back to the business case and we revisit it is
12:38
absolutely fundamental to why we have steering committees and we
12:42
have teams and we build that culture within our team to
12:47
actually speak up about when things are not working.
12:51
The original brief when we look at the success of any project.
12:55
Absolutely spot-on, in terms of, what was the level of adoption
12:59
of, that system of that process of that change and listening to
13:03
our end users as early as possible.
13:06
Right? At the start, when we're
13:08
building, the business case is absolutely fundamental and
13:11
building those relationships with them.
13:13
If I was to take the knowledge that I am ADD car trained, I'm
13:17
organizational ta trained, you know, I know, Oh, Joe's trained
13:22
in your, are science as well. And Prince to Trent, you can
13:25
take all those qualifications and they will give you a level
13:29
of training and tools and techniques and chartered a p.m.
13:34
as well. You know, I think it's really
13:36
nice within those charted. A p.m. elements that we are
13:39
starting to build the people element piece to it.
13:42
And start providing fundamental training to our individuals
13:45
around, what are the wider pictures that we need to wider
13:48
wider skills? Sorry that we need to be looking
13:51
And I think it's this softer pieces that are absolutely
13:55
fundamental to anything being delivered.
13:58
Now, you can have a team that delivers 100 miles an hour and
14:03
are absolutely exhausted because they are so focused on the
14:07
delivery, which is more transactional, or we can have
14:09
built teams that deliver projects that are successful
14:14
that have got rewards in place that have kind of, you know,
14:18
allows that kind of open and safe space.
14:21
To change and adapt and that's what I'd call really looks.
14:25
At is, look, you looking at that those stakeholder mixes, have we
14:28
got the right people, people pieces involved, you know, have
14:32
we spoken to them Health, we got stakeholders, you know, engaged
14:36
early on, you know, buying into the change.
14:39
So that we, you know, we can all talk about what our and feed
14:43
into that change and build that change.
14:45
So I think, you know, ultimately people deliver the change and
14:50
you know what? That future state looks like is
14:53
really important to be able to visualize as a group and as a
14:57
lead and and start setting that in stone quite early on and as a
15:04
point of contact kind of go back to it.
15:06
So when we do kind of get a bit more involved, I think when this
15:10
question, you know initially you are scaring, you know.
15:13
I thought about me and Joe and I thought well Joe's primarily
15:17
from the public sector. I'm from the private sector.
15:19
If we were both given the same I'm briefed the same set of were
15:23
both trained to the same level, you know, it would be
15:26
interesting to know how differently outcomes would be.
15:29
Because the way that Joe would build her team might be very
15:32
different to some of the skills that I'm looking for, in my
15:34
team, the environment that we set both of our teams up
15:38
against, you know, are we going 100 miles an hour or we're going
15:42
to break this up? So the word agile comes in a
15:44
fair bit these days in organizations but that's just an
15:46
approach of delivery, right? The product, you know,
15:51
Mentioned, you know, when we then look at the product
15:53
development, well, yes, there is a level of product.
15:55
But really, we're looking at that business case and the
15:59
original problem and the area that we're looking at and
16:02
saying, how is that area going to develop in the next five
16:04
years? And how sustainable do we want
16:07
to make this solution as in people processes and Technology
16:12
as part of the brief that we are working on?
16:14
So it's a lot more rounded in that sense and I think that
16:18
there is no such thing as a failure in any project if we are
16:23
addressing the organization and the market need now and we have
16:28
the right people and we're training people to skill set to
16:32
deliver fantastic. Yeah, that's really interesting.
16:35
So really what we're talking about here is kind of team's
16:38
people process markets, obviously individuals, having
16:42
the right skills and communication is absolutely
16:45
Paramount here. So I mean, how do you really
16:49
bring people on Let me rephrase it.
16:52
How do you bring people on you with a change Journey?
16:54
If you're going down that route there, any techniques or tips
16:59
that you can, you can share Yeah, so and it builds on some
17:05
of the things. The salt was just talking about
17:08
and I'm sure she will talk a little bit more about this in
17:11
terms of some of the methods and processes out there.
17:14
She's mentioned sort of pro PSI and they had car model and she
17:18
talked about how agile and and again, we're working in a very
17:22
complex ever-changing and very difficult environment.
17:29
Now, it's very uncertain, you know, We all know the kind of
17:33
view and vuca definition, and we know that actually looking at
17:38
how we work with, in this volatile, uncertain complex and
17:42
ambiguous. Environment means that we need
17:45
to adapt the way in which we work to fit.
17:47
Both the sector the the kind of change that we're trying to do
17:51
but also the changing environment around us and there
17:56
are great tools and techniques out there.
17:58
So Melanie Franklin, she's developed an agile.
18:02
Change management method. So that instead of looking at
18:06
agile product development, it's about agile collaboration and
18:12
agile, change outcomes. So it's measuring the outcomes
18:16
rather than the product development.
18:18
So so there are really great tools out there to support
18:22
people going on that Journey. But for me, that there was still
18:26
something underneath that that was really preventing us from
18:32
Understanding why and understanding how people engage
18:36
with change and so you can follow the process and yet still
18:39
fail to achieve your outcomes and that, that took me down the
18:43
route of looking at understanding Neuroscience.
18:46
So, so Neuroscience being the, there's the science that looks
18:50
at how the brain works and how it works both from a chemical
18:54
and a physiological. And a biological way, that sort
18:58
of says, actually if we are Suddenly afraid because we think
19:04
that A change is going to happen.
19:05
That's going to have a negative impact on us.
19:07
It might put our jobs at risk. It might change how we work, it
19:10
might make us vulnerable. Then there's a chemical and a
19:14
psychological impact that then prevents you from thinking
19:19
logically the fight or flight instincts.
19:22
The the chemistry that makes you feel anxious that gets your
19:26
heart, pounding that sense of the adrenaline that's rushing
19:29
through you and all of that kind of stuff.
19:32
Is the stuff that stops free people from being open, and
19:36
confident, and comfortable, and creative.
19:40
And yet we if we want people to go on a change Journey, we need
19:43
them to be in a positive mindset.
19:47
So, understanding neuroscience and understanding how to engage
19:51
with people, and the different ways in, which people will
19:54
respond, and how you can adapt how how you engage with them,
19:58
that gives people an insight into Being able to support
20:06
people to get into a positive mindset and a positive way of
20:09
thinking that creates positive chemistry and a positive
20:14
mindset. So there's a lot of work that's
20:16
been going on around neuroscience and and the impact
20:20
that that has on project management, Carol hasta wall,
20:23
she's just having a book published right now around
20:28
neuroscience and project management and the this Really
20:32
useful insights into understanding for project
20:35
managers and change managers. And those that are leading it,
20:38
how we can adapt the way in which we approach change, and
20:43
how we can work with people to get them to go on a positive
20:46
journey. I think everybody's familiar
20:48
with the Kubler-Ross change. Curve, you know, the one that
20:51
sort of takes you down into the fear and denial and then so
20:56
anger before coming out the other side into sort of a
20:59
positive acceptance and add, Lactation and part of our role
21:04
is to be able to understand where individuals are on that
21:08
Journey because you can't treat them as a group.
21:10
Everybody is an individual and have their own set of life
21:15
experiences that create their response that is unique to them.
21:20
So, so for me, the thing about the change journey is
21:23
understanding how people are potentially going to respond
21:28
working to create an environment or A way that is supportive that
21:33
gets them into a positive mindset, that allows them to go
21:37
on that journey in a positive engaged, creative and
21:40
comfortable way because everybody's journey is
21:43
individual and everybody has to engage and choose to go on that
21:50
Journey. You can't make people go on it.
21:52
So so for me understanding the neuro science that underpins the
21:56
how people work and how people think and respond is really.
22:02
Cool to then be able to understand our people coming
22:06
with you. And what else you need to do, to
22:08
support them to to engage positively in the change, and to
22:12
help them to get in a place to go to take that Journey.
22:18
That's fantastic. That's really interesting.
22:20
I've never, really considered the Neuroscience side of things
22:22
and bombings in the when we upload the podcast, will put
22:26
details of Carroll's book in the in the link section there.
22:29
So, but it's our posture already.
22:32
Take on on how you bring people on the change Journey, you're
22:36
not going to believe this but I think I'm very similar to jar
22:38
that will a long-lost sisters for so I think absolutely spot
22:43
on Joe. In terms of when you look at
22:46
Coopers change curve, that's more about the individual and
22:49
the feelings that they go through, you know, you look a
22:51
tad car and that's all about the information enablement of, you
22:55
know, all of our stakeholders. And I think that I was on a
22:59
similar journey to Joe which is you know, you kind of Implement
23:02
and use all the tools and techniques.
23:04
But there's always something fun, something really sort of
23:05
fundamental bubbling underneath and you can use all the
23:09
processes and techniques out there.
23:11
But I think that the actual psyche of the individual is
23:16
absolutely key. And, you know, it's funny
23:18
because you know, I struggled a couple of years with a
23:22
particular mind, frame of a business analyst, you know, I'd
23:27
build a brilliant plan with really understand the kickoff
23:31
and With come out of it and I do my 12 ones and you know I'd go
23:35
to business analysts every now and then, you know, passing on a
23:38
watercolor how's it going? And you know they just they just
23:41
didn't understand the question, you know, on the plant.
23:44
Like what part do you mean? Because naturally their brain
23:48
type in their psyche, you so far in the detail that they've got
23:52
this Beast of a question? Now, when and you're kind of
23:54
asking a high level and what does this mean?
23:57
And I remember at the time going to my manager going, not touch
24:00
us touch. I'm really struggling.
24:02
With this group and a friend of mine, actually, you know,
24:06
advised on going on a psychic Orson.
24:10
And I did, I started my journey on transactional analysis, which
24:13
is about, you know, the theory of the personality and the
24:16
systematic psyctherapy of not just personal growth, but
24:19
personal change as well. And it was I was I was going
24:22
through that Journey, did I realize?
24:24
You know, you've got theories there about the personalities,
24:28
the communication, you know, between you and the person that
24:31
you're working with You know, you can deliver the same message
24:35
but in a different way, will they understand it?
24:38
The relationships that you have with the individuals and how
24:41
much have you as a person? You know, growing up from child
24:45
to adult are bringing yourself into that organization.
24:49
You know what, feelings are you bringing in?
24:51
If you've had an experience in childhood, you know that has
24:55
been more kind of parents that this and you've gone off and
24:59
done it, you're more likely to probably bring that.
25:02
Into the organization. So I think it's kind of
25:04
understanding the individual. That's on your team.
25:07
So I'm very sort of, you know, when I build my sort of, when I
25:11
come back to the question that you asked Calvin, you know, how
25:14
do you bring people with you along the journey?
25:17
It's understanding the team that you want to bring the person
25:21
along the journey and really building that kind of
25:24
relationship with them and understanding.
25:27
What does safe space mean for them?
25:29
You know, is it psychological? Is it physical?
25:32
You know, and I think the other element to this is building that
25:35
trust and honesty where, you know, people feel comfortable
25:38
enough to say, hey, I've made a mistake on this right, but it's
25:42
not up to just that person to resolve that mistake as a team.
25:46
You build that environment where you all step outside your roles
25:49
and you, you helped resolve a problem.
25:52
And I've had many, a programs at the moment that, you know, we
25:56
seem to be cookie cutting this some respects in our
26:00
organization where we are starting Starting to do that,
26:04
you know, we're building teams where we are going to make
26:06
mistakes, you know, setting up a program and think this is going
26:09
to be perfect. We going to follow the plan.
26:11
It's never, it's never a good way to set up.
26:13
A team is with there are going to be changes.
26:15
We are going to realize that you know, when we get to design we
26:20
you know we may have missed it. That's fine.
26:21
Let's let's figure it out. And let's come back today too.
26:24
So I always bring people along the journey from a data
26:28
perspective. Understanding you know there are
26:31
some XY. There might be stretch goals for
26:33
them. So I always speak to my
26:35
individual team members and try and understand what their
26:38
development plans are with their manager each year.
26:42
So that if I can give them the opportunities within my programs
26:45
or projects that will allow them to, you know, go, hey, I've
26:50
kicked that off or I now want to, you know, progress why not
26:54
giving them the opportunities to grow as individuals within your
26:57
projects and programs giving them the visibility is Leaky and
27:03
supporting them. Right?
27:04
So I think the biggest factor in all of this and Joe touched on
27:08
it is being there as a leader. To kind of, you know, support
27:12
your teams, and when your teams are, you know, really thrashing
27:17
it and really going through this year, you create an environment
27:21
that you just go right down to. Let's, let's take some time out.
27:25
Let's enjoy our winds too far, and giving them some of that
27:30
breathing space is absolutely key.
27:32
So when you take what we've just said, and you take it within an
27:38
organizational context, it's very different to.
27:42
If you are delivering a project to somebody, that's a shot down,
27:44
the road versus an NHS organization or a global
27:49
organization. Because now when you're working
27:51
in a global organization, you have another level of complexity
27:55
as well. You're working with cultural
27:56
changes time zones, you know, you're working with different
28:00
attitudes and different. No, you know takes on you know
28:04
how I may have run a project versus another person.
28:06
May have run a project. You now need to build another
28:09
level of relationship. With that person to understand
28:11
what some of their history and experiences are and come to a
28:15
like-minded way of working. So in a lot of global
28:19
organizations are you will have the roles of relationship
28:22
managers and I find that there are apps that Yuki and
28:25
fundamental to kind of helping us understand some of the
28:29
cultural gaps as well. And and I think it's absolutely
28:32
Absolutely fascinating. When you play in that field
28:34
because bringing people along the change, whether it's, you
28:38
know, UK or Global or, you know, the finance department in a, in
28:45
a start-up, you're still working with people and so understanding
28:50
people and what they may need to do or what made, they may need
28:54
to change. They need to be changing in a
28:56
psychological safe space and working with them to understand.
29:02
Their fears and hopes around, you know, how do they want, how
29:06
do they see this project or program changing lives or
29:10
changing the playing field that they're working in?
29:13
And I think the other element is is as a leader you you know
29:18
working to deliver this change but it's not just a framework
29:23
that we're now following. Yeah it is about the change all
29:26
the way through from the minute that anybody initiates a project
29:30
all the way through to China and then also, So, they're after.
29:33
Yeah, we don't just deliver a project and go.
29:35
There you go. See you later.
29:36
You know, we have to manage our end users expectations.
29:40
Because now they're looking A Whole New World of.
29:44
You've just switched us on to this whole world.
29:46
We don't want an element of surprise.
29:48
So as much information, you can provide early on.
29:51
So there are very little surprises throughout that
29:54
journey and that's absolutely fundamental working with the
29:58
leadership to, you know, Cascade and move those messages around.
30:02
And having a supportive leadership is absolutely
30:05
fundamental to a lot of the programs that I work with.
30:07
And I'm lucky to have that, you know, to be able to have that
30:11
relationship with them to, you know, raise any issues and know
30:16
and have the confidence that they are going to be resolved,
30:19
or I'm going to resolve the issues for my team's.
30:22
So having that trust that Honesty, you know, those
30:25
individuals are able to come up to you and and provide them with
30:29
that growth mindset. And playing field more than
30:33
anything. I try and make my projects as
30:34
fun as possible making term at the same time.
30:38
You know. We do have so many challenges
30:40
around that. Yes, absolutely.
30:42
And I mean even when you mention working on a global scale with
30:45
the different communication Styles and individuals that's
30:50
just a challenge on itself. But yeah, really interesting
30:53
when you talk about creating that comfortable environment and
30:56
obviously identifying the drivers Joe I'm going to come
30:59
back. My next question is going to tap
31:01
into The, you said a moment ago, which is you mentioned the why?
31:05
And what's the wind up? I always like to kind of focus
31:08
on not. So, I think the next question
31:10
really would be to both of you. How I mean, how can you imagine
31:14
the impact that you're having on people on the outcome and that
31:17
really links into to that? What's the Y?
31:20
So who would like to pick that one up first?
31:24
Yeah I will if that's okay. And sometimes mentions two
31:29
really critical things in her lasts.
31:32
Of comments about this and it all sort of it really all needs
31:36
to be underpinned with, why are we doing it?
31:39
And people will buy into a process, they won't buy into a,
31:44
you know, a financial element or a particular, you know, way of
31:51
doing something, you know, you say, oh well, we need to do this
31:54
differently. What they buy into is a sense of
31:58
purpose, they buy into a Cause Or a belief or a sense of
32:03
belonging. And so, the starting point with
32:08
yourself and with your team is, why why are you doing this?
32:12
What's what's the purpose of it? What's the aim of it?
32:15
What is it that you are going to achieve?
32:18
Because people people will rally to a cause and I'll say, yes,
32:23
that's something I believe in that something, and it's an
32:25
emotional response. It's something a personal.
32:29
And, and when you're starting out with this, You've got to
32:32
have a really clear sense of why.
32:35
Why is it important? Why is it going to make a
32:38
difference? What's the the impact?
32:41
It's going to have both on the world on your customer base or
32:46
what's the value to them? And to you and doing it by
32:50
setting the wire. You can bring people together to
32:53
help to shape the how. And the what, and if you've got
32:57
that ultimately that keeps you connected that, you have that
33:02
Cool. Was that?
33:04
We're going to work on this. This is a really important
33:06
thing. This is why it helps you get
33:09
past the individual conflicts that you might have where people
33:14
are, wedded, pursue particular ways of working or particular,
33:18
you know, what they want to do or particular ideas, because if
33:21
you can bring people back to the thing that join them together in
33:24
the first place, which is the, why are we doing this?
33:28
It helps to get beyond the individual and keep people.
33:32
People focused. And therefore, it becomes not a
33:35
personal thing. If your particular idea isn't
33:38
followed or that particular way of working isn't going to be the
33:41
one that we take. If you keep people focused on
33:44
the Y and then you set your measures and outcomes linked to
33:49
that why? And how do we know which Eve
33:52
that that's the thing for me that is really critical in terms
33:56
of setting the team up to start with the Team Dynamics.
33:59
But also they're going to go out with Conviction and with passion
34:04
and with purpose, when they talk to stakeholders and customers
34:09
and the ends of users and they're going to take that
34:13
passion and and commitments and in going to infect others with
34:16
it, they're going to infuse that and that's what gets people to
34:20
join in. That's what gets people to go
34:21
on. The journey is that sense of of
34:24
belief and belonging and wanting to be a part of something.
34:28
And for me, there's some techniques you can use to help
34:32
help to get people shaping that in a practical way.
34:36
We've done some work with dr. Tammy watch horn, who
34:41
facilitates training around Lego, serious play.
34:45
And what we've done as a group and around the project
34:49
profession program, we did this a couple of years ago to start
34:52
with. We brought volunteers from
34:55
across the NHS who never met before they just said, yeah,
34:59
this is something I'd like to be involved in Brought them
35:02
together for a two-day workshop and collectively over that two
35:06
days. We built the project profession
35:11
out of Lego, we built the component parts, we built the
35:14
connections, we built the challenges and the issues, and
35:17
everybody played a part in contributed and helped to shape
35:21
that. And what that meant was that the
35:23
end of those two days. We had built respect, we built
35:28
understanding. We built a in different
35:31
perspective. Has and it meant that we had a
35:34
both a very holistic and well structured model for what we
35:41
wanted to achieve. But everybody in that room, had
35:45
collectively contributed to it and therefore ultimately bought
35:49
into it and it's like yes this is what we collectively are
35:52
going to do and that set the tone for us, then going on that
35:56
journey to collectively deliver on that.
35:59
And that was a really effective way of getting people.
36:02
Pulled to, to build to buy into the why to help to then build
36:06
the what and the how you're going to go and go forward and
36:10
deliver on it. So Simonson ex works, start with
36:14
why is really important place to start.
36:17
Don't start with the how other what start with the why get
36:20
people together helped to shape it and then you can work out how
36:24
you're going to take that forward.
36:26
Fantastic excellent. And so have you got a view where
36:30
on the y-yes? Absolutely, I think I think
36:33
there's just it's such a large topic gabbing.
36:36
I don't think we've got enough time, but I think to Joe's
36:40
point, right? She mentions the five we often
36:44
on our programs. You know, we have an initiative
36:47
called the five why's. Yeah, you know, in a process
36:50
Improvement programs, any programs that we start, we will
36:53
start off with the why white? Then we'll move on to Let's map
36:57
out how we work today. Let's really understand and
37:00
quite often, that's a revelation.
37:01
Shouldn't in its own, right? Because your they're doing one
37:05
piece of your job. You're not always fully aware of
37:08
the end-to-end process that you are working to and what is
37:11
achievement that alone will bring people together in a
37:14
workshop. So I always use my business on
37:16
this to work on these kind of sessions and really spend the
37:21
time and understand. Why are we doing this?
37:25
You know, and make sure we've got the four problem statement
37:28
their map out the as is. Now let's look at at the to be
37:32
World. We've got some high level
37:34
requirements. Let's understand our tube you
37:36
world and I think to Joe's point you can do that in isolation in
37:41
certain groups. But the more people that can
37:43
feed into that process in its own right will help by start to
37:47
buy in and also unravel any think that we you know may not
37:52
have initially captured where human at the end of the day,
37:55
we're not going to know or everybody's pieces so the more
37:58
we can Encompass those folks into those sessions.
38:02
The better and they will feel part of making and creating that
38:07
to be world. So, when we talk about, how can
38:10
you measure that, giving them the platform and the open
38:14
opportunities to be involved and how we shape that to be world is
38:18
absolutely critical because everybody will bring in
38:21
different experiences. We've got people at our
38:23
organization that I've been here, 45 years, you know, they
38:27
will bring experiences that we have got no idea about your
38:31
problems. Statements.
38:32
And I think that when we look at these pieces and when we do
38:36
these activities really focused on who needs to be there and
38:40
what do they bring to the table? And ultimately, you know, Joe
38:43
touched on this bring in a team Dynamic, that means that they're
38:46
adding value, you know, they're moving the needle, they're
38:49
helping us improve the way that we're moving forward, and
38:52
they've had a part to play in that because their experiences
38:56
of added value is absolutely key.
38:58
And as a group, you know, having that energy Raymond having that
39:03
belief and and knowing that I have got the best team here to
39:07
give give us what we know today and will also help me drive any
39:12
changes going forward. Is actually a proud moment for
39:15
any of the change managers or any of the the project managers
39:18
because actually, you're all working collectively.
39:22
Now, one of the things that, you know, we try and do to measure
39:26
the outcome of, you know, what we're trying to do on our
39:29
people, as well as how well the systems have been Adopted is we
39:32
have a certain rollers you know, change calms and training.
39:36
We have a whole department for that.
39:37
I don't any of our programs. We do tend to involve them early
39:41
on and we've had like a fantastic, you know, sort of
39:45
carpool, kind of, you know, promotion of a product.
39:48
And it gets a little bit competitive between some of the
39:51
leaders sometimes and we are, we are in is quite nice to show you
39:54
that right in a playful manner and we have an interview, you
39:57
know, promoting the program from day one.
40:01
Now, in a lot of our Coughs. We tend to have them up front so
40:04
they can answer any immediate questions.
40:07
And I think when we revert back to the kind of side key of, you
40:11
know how individuals work, you know, I'm sure Joe's in this
40:16
place in this place as well into say, well, what are we actually
40:20
delivering to, you know, how do I actually feel about this, you
40:23
know, and an opening up that platforming giving them a voice
40:27
of how they feel and what they're willing to do when you
40:29
know actually You know, voicing how this could possibly go
40:34
wrong, you know, is good information is all really good
40:39
information to kind of build in, from, from the start.
40:42
So, when we look at those pieces, we really do need to
40:46
focus on, you know, strong leadership.
40:50
Are people involved in the process of making that new kind
40:53
of system and that new way of working?
40:57
Do we have the right new roles and responsibilities, you know,
41:00
going forward? If we opened up even more
41:03
opportunities for our teams and I think kind of the growth
41:08
mindset is the way forward. So I think all of the
41:11
methodologies play a part. But again, under Underneath It,
41:14
All it is about the people and how we work with them and how we
41:18
deliver that message and how we set up our workshops.
41:22
That's absolutely key. Fantastic.
41:26
That's, that's really interesting.
41:27
And and, and obviously, just with your point there about
41:30
people, there's talk briefly about the role of mentoring and
41:33
all of this mean, we've spoke earlier.
41:35
Joe, you're from the public sector and stab your friend.
41:37
The private sector both with years and years of experience in
41:41
and around changing project management.
41:43
So how do we individuals process and problem solve with in their
41:47
roles? And if you've got any thoughts
41:50
on role models, Joe do we can we uh pick that up, please?
41:56
So so for me all of this really starts with the self because
42:02
ultimately you can't really influence other people unless
42:05
you can influence yourself first and and I think for me that
42:09
leadership role is absolutely critical because that sets the
42:12
tone for everything else as Leaders.
42:16
We have a responsibility to Assad said to set the culture
42:20
set, the behaviors that we approach.
42:22
Create the psychological safety. And if that's not something that
42:26
you're very familiar with, then Amy Edmondson book.
42:29
The Fearless organization is a really great starting point.
42:32
How do you create an open supportive engaging environment
42:37
that allows people to flourish and if you can do that you can
42:41
then enable them to become really successful and deliver in
42:47
their own specialist way as well.
42:49
So the thing about starting with yourself With is ensuring that
42:54
you feel not only safe to be able to talk, but also part of
43:00
it's about being allowed to be vulnerable.
43:04
And that's saying we don't know, all the answers.
43:06
We sometimes struggle with the pressures.
43:09
We are doubt ourselves in terms of the direction of travel
43:13
sometimes, and some of that authenticity and their openness
43:18
is really important because if you create that as an
43:21
environment, then others Will it be able to to express that
43:25
themselves and then you can deal with those fears and those
43:29
emotions and those needs. So Brent a Brown's book daring
43:33
greatly I think is really important one for as an
43:36
individual to think about yourself and how vulnerable you
43:41
feel sometimes and how you can be open about that to create an
43:45
environment that then is open to others.
43:48
Amy M is also has some really great resources around team.
43:52
X and team creation. So, having created that
43:55
psychological safety, she is got a book on teaming, teaming for
43:59
Innovation, extreme teaming and you know, difficult and changing
44:03
circumstances and whether, you know, you're in the public
44:06
sector where you might have perhaps longer and more
44:09
established teams to work on things or whether you've got a
44:12
lot of short-term changes where you're bringing people together
44:16
to work collaboratively in a short impactful way, you need to
44:21
know the tools. Techniques to be able to do that
44:24
in order to support that team to be set up and to run really
44:27
quickly and effectively and then that's about supporting the
44:31
individuals within that team and understanding who they are,
44:35
what's important to them what is their their particular Dynamics.
44:42
So that you can build trust and respect and openness within the
44:46
team where everybody is valued. I think for me those are
44:50
critical starting points. That's really interesting.
44:53
And I think there's always times when we all doubt ourselves.
44:57
I mean, I know there's a lot of people who made start new jobs
44:59
and there's that impostor syndrome which which Creeps in,
45:03
and by all means, I'm sure that could be another podcast or
45:06
webinar that we could do a whole session on.
45:08
But so I'll have you got a view one on on this aspect of things.
45:13
Absolutely. And I think again, I think Joe's
45:16
touched on ta a fair bit there, you know, it's about the self
45:19
and others. How do you work with others and
45:22
being a K within yourself. When we look at role modeling
45:25
and mentoring, you know, it does start within yourself
45:29
identifying, you know kind of what what qualities you want to
45:32
improve. What values do you have versus,
45:35
you know, what values you want to kind of develop over the
45:38
years is key and I think that continual learning and that
45:42
wanted that hunger right to continually learn is key.
45:46
I think again, you know, Joe's mentioned some brilliant authors
45:50
there and I've read a few of those you know, for me.
45:52
Me I think really the fundamental idea of a role model
45:57
is somebody that you look to and really kind of not necessarily
46:00
look as a hero but like look at their qualities and values and
46:03
actually, you know what, I know I have confidence in that person
46:06
that if I go to them and they're, you know, I raised an
46:09
issue, we're going to resolve this not to, you know, in a
46:12
bullish way or anything like that.
46:13
But actually collectively, we will be able to work through
46:16
this and I have confidence that no problem is, you know, too big
46:20
or too small and we get through this.
46:22
And I think, I think, you know, from a self perspective, there
46:25
are some really good learnings out there and I think, you know,
46:28
the initial kind of mindset that comes to his Armstrong's
46:32
organization in the mind. You know, it's really how you
46:36
are network within your organization.
46:38
How well do you actually know your organization and and really
46:41
looking within and going? I guess, where do I fit in this?
46:44
We talk about the person within the role and and then with the
46:47
organization, you know, in ta and and it's like actually needs
46:50
to be the perfect triangle, you know, everything.
46:52
Are all lines equal well, you're not always going to be in the
46:56
right role or you may not have the right opportunities and
47:00
actually having the open discussion with your managers
47:03
and generally kind of mentors around your organization.
47:06
And then also looking for mentors, outside your
47:08
organization. It's absolutely key.
47:11
The other piece is around, you know, improving the way that how
47:15
do I work? Well, with, you know, all these
47:17
members? Well, there's a book called by
47:19
Anita mountain and Chris Davidson which is about working.
47:22
Together and that really hones in on, you know, are the
47:27
different kind of cultures and the way that you work and
47:30
techniques and and tropes. So there are some techniques to
47:33
soft techniques that are mentioned in that book around
47:37
pieces of that. And then when you're
47:39
facilitating workshops and you know kind of pulling together,
47:42
some key areas, like I've just said, you know, the as is
47:45
mapping the as has world, there's a book by gray brown
47:51
Which is about gamestorming. So there are, this is just a
47:54
book full of techniques that you can possibly use within any of
47:58
your projects. And it's it's a great go-to
48:02
guide with in tact actually have a look at those pieces.
48:06
Now, if you're working in an organization that is more
48:09
reactive. There's a book called The
48:11
anxious organization by Jeffrey Miller.
48:13
And I love that book because I think it brings a talks about
48:17
the hot potato and the six-second vacations that You
48:21
know, you can have that there are times when you do need to go
48:25
into some difficult discussions and team discussions and you
48:28
need to just take a step back and bring back.
48:32
What Joe was saying that positive positive kind of Next
48:35
Step. How do we work through this?
48:37
Because no problems, you know, anything that we can't resolve.
48:42
So I think that there are a number of areas and
48:45
organizations do promote having mentors and having a look at
48:50
your next step. And I think it's really
48:52
important that as an individual. You know what it is that you are
48:57
looking for within yourself to improve and be able to
49:01
articulate that because people want to help and people want to
49:06
drive change, not just within the organization.
49:08
But as an individual and grow people and no organization will
49:12
ever, you know, look at somebody that's great and, and actually
49:16
just stopped their development. You know, we'll keep developing
49:19
them as an individual. And it's Putting that you look
49:21
towards that Progressive kind of person ago, who will help me
49:24
grow as an individual and take me to the next level and help me
49:29
get better at what I do. And it's not always about
49:32
climbing the ladder either. It's sometimes looking sideways
49:35
and looking at those skill sets that, you know, we're not all
49:38
perfect at, but we can tweak Fantastic.
49:43
Thank you. So up and you ride with regards
49:46
to mentoring, we've certainly into research, a p.m. conducted
49:49
recently. Had a lot of calls and feedback
49:51
from our members to ask for more support around mentoring.
49:55
So at the beginning of the year, we set up a mentoring platform
49:58
and we've seen a huge growth with both mentors and mentees.
50:03
And I'm pretty sure that my understanding is that when
50:06
someone is at a chartered status, it is very much about
50:10
giving back to the, to the community and I think that's a
50:14
fantastic way to to move forward.
50:16
So if anyone's interested in that too, to check out the the
50:19
website I'm conscious of time. So I've only got, I think one
50:23
question left and then I just want to get your guys take with
50:26
regards to some recommendations but there's a lot of resources
50:29
and books that you've already kind of tapped into and we'll
50:32
get on to that in a moment. But probably my final question
50:35
really is just to find out your views really on some of the
50:39
young unsaid aspects that the mythology Don't actually teach
50:43
you. Should we go to sob and then Joe
50:46
if that's okay, So so I think for me creating that autonomy,
50:52
yeah, within your teams and actually setting out your sort
50:56
of how you expect, you know, what your contract is with your
51:01
team. So, you know, I often say, you
51:04
know, I'm not going to clock watch.
51:05
I'm not going to, you know, do this.
51:06
I just want you to be open honest and raise issues, you
51:11
have the autonomy to play for. If we work with a process that
51:13
does not work in this context, speak to me will absolutely
51:17
work. To try a new way.
51:21
And I will support them through that.
51:23
So creating that environment to give him the autonomy, and the
51:27
authority, and the permissions to have a play and work freely
51:30
within an environment, to make it to do a deliverable is
51:33
absolutely key, you know, it's that trusted place.
51:37
It's creating the one team mentality.
51:40
It's creating that kind of space to embrace change, right?
51:44
Every day. You know, you can Embrace change
51:46
and there's no black and white. White.
51:48
There is this gray space that we are playing in and giving them
51:51
the space with without too much restrictions on time.
51:57
And and I know time is wise a difficult one, right?
52:01
Because you are working towards a goal but giving them that
52:05
space to think play and build relationships but then also you
52:09
know bringing that a fun element of you know, making sure that
52:13
they don't have any outside noise and that they are
52:15
absolutely focused. Is that I think for A the
52:19
unsaid, but the list is endless. I'm sure Jo Jo will touch on
52:23
loads more to that. And I think two people will
52:27
never deliver the same. I think that that's that I'd
52:31
love to test this Theory out at some point.
52:34
Thanks help. I think I think Sam's really
52:38
cuts the heart of it there, which is that the methodology
52:42
is. And the approaches to say,
52:45
setting up the teams or to running programs or projects
52:49
tend to be very formulaic. But actually ultimately, we
52:52
deliver we're working with individuals with individual
52:55
people, with individual sets of talents and interests, and
52:58
passions and capabilities. And that thing about creating
53:03
sort of autonomy is about understanding each What is it?
53:07
They're passionate about. What do they care about?
53:09
Will they naturally good at and shape the roll around the
53:12
individual? Not the other way around,
53:15
because if you, if you shape the rolled around the person and you
53:19
play to their strengths and you support their development and
53:23
you give them the autonomy and you give them a clear purpose,
53:27
that they've sort of signed up to and bought him.
53:29
And they will do amazing things and you don't need to then sort
53:33
of do all of the sort of like the oversight and management.
53:36
And stuff because they will they will just go off and and and
53:39
deliver because they believe in it, they're able to do it.
53:43
You given them the tools and the skills to be able to do it.
53:46
And that's how change will really happen.
53:49
And the flow of success will really come from that.
53:55
And for me the starting point with that is leading by example
53:59
and and that's about knowing yourself.
54:02
Are you in the right place? Doing the right thing.
54:04
Are you do you have the autonomy?
54:06
You have that Keen. Sense of purpose.
54:09
Are you doing something? You're really passionate about
54:11
because you can't instill it in others, if you don't have it
54:13
yourself. So, so for me, the thing about
54:18
all of this, and all of the change, kind of elements is
54:21
start with yourself. Look, inside, are you happy with
54:25
where you are and what you're doing?
54:27
And are you passionate and you have autonomy and do you have
54:30
the skills needed to do it? Do you love what you do?
54:32
Can you infuse that love into others?
54:36
Because if not, then that's the place to start, and that's the
54:39
place to start for yourself, and then to support others with, and
54:43
that's not in the methodologies. Brilliant.
54:46
Okay, so in wrapping up, if for people who are listening to,
54:51
this is there, what, what do you want people to take away from
54:54
this into session? Is there any, any kind of real
54:57
key takeaways, any any resources books articles websites, that
55:02
you would recommend? And by all means we can get
55:03
those uploaded into the into the the podcast itself.
55:09
SOB over to you. I think, for me, it's let's
55:15
think outside the box, think of what change, you are bringing
55:17
every single day. And look at the why you're doing
55:20
it, you know, is it bringing passion to Joe's point?
55:24
Do you enjoy what you're doing? And if not, then let's really.
55:27
Look at that. Brilliant.
55:29
Okay. What about some books?
55:31
I think you've mentioned a couple.
55:32
There were. I think gamestorming was one.
55:36
Was that grey-brown? Yes, yes, that's correct.
55:39
Working together by Anita mountain and who was the what
55:43
was it the anxious organization if I'm right there was that one
55:46
the anxious organization is a great read, Jeffrey Miller
55:49
wonderful. Thank you and Jo if we could go
55:53
over to please. Yeah.
55:55
So so for me the starting point with your own journey is perhaps
56:00
looking at brain a Browns work around daring greatly because
56:04
that's about understanding yourself and your motivations
56:07
and feeling. Getting into a place where
56:11
you're comfortable being vulnerable and, and being
56:14
authentic with others and taking that risk, and I think that's
56:18
really critical thing. And then talking about the team
56:22
and how you support the team to enable them.
56:25
So Dan Pink's book drive is all about team motivation and how
56:30
you shape the roll around the individual.
56:33
And then there's Amy Edmondson is work around the Fearless.
56:39
Creating psychological safety, her books around, teaming,
56:42
teaming for Innovation, and extreme teaming, that's all
56:45
really great stuff. And then in terms of
56:48
understanding your, The Wider organization and the customers
56:57
and the end users, there's some really great stuff from dr.
57:02
Tammy watch horns written a book called The change ninja and
57:05
that's about and it's quite a fun interactive book that helps
57:09
sometimes. Yeah, helps you understand
57:11
different choices and the impact of different choices and and
57:15
therefore gets you to think about how you might approach
57:17
this ahead of time. So to achieve some really great
57:20
outcomes and get some great engagement Melanie, Franklin's
57:24
work around, agile, change agent, and agile, change coach
57:28
and thinking about the the change manager as the coach
57:31
rather than as somebody who is pushing or delivering.
57:36
It's about how you engage with others around that.
57:39
And And as that SOB has mentioned.
57:41
So Tim Kris, he's written some books for pro side but also we
57:45
there's some great models and methods to support that change
57:49
process. But ultimately Simonson ex works
57:52
start with why, why, why are you doing this?
57:57
What are you passionate about? How can you articulate that for
58:01
yourself, for others? So that when you start this
58:04
journey, you've got a really important and passionate way of
58:09
Being able to convey it. And that's the thing that's
58:12
going to get people to come along with you.
58:14
Yeah. If I may just add another couple
58:17
of books on that one, you know, as Jose speaking, I remember
58:20
reading Stephen covey's, the 7 Habits of Highly Effective.
58:23
Oh yeah, but that was like fantastic, classic fundamentals
58:28
are the Armstrong organization in mind.
58:32
That that's a fantastic background read if you get time
58:35
to very small book but again it goes into you know how You can
58:40
still the psyche into really understanding the organization.
58:44
You're in, you know, leadership teams coaching by Peter Hawkins
58:48
and then the one then actually didn't crop up.
58:50
Until Joe mentioned about Dynamic teams was the group
58:54
dynamics for high-risk teams by Amy Farrah, that is a fantastic.
58:59
Small little book and probably is really good to read over a
59:02
weekend that goes into, you know, how do you create this
59:05
high-risk teams? But again, you know, the topic
59:09
of this Whole conversation is that, you know, it's all about
59:11
people and how you create those teams really does depend on the
59:15
environments that you work with in.
59:19
And I think there was one, Joe you mentioned it earlier on our
59:23
dear friend Carol lost a while. Yes.
59:25
Yes. And that's really all around
59:27
Neuroscience for projects and change management and that's
59:31
just coming out. So that's definitely one to look
59:33
into to understand how how people work so that you can work
59:38
better with people. Fantastic, excellent.
59:42
Well, thank you very much, Joe Sal but I think we could have
59:44
chatted for another hour, but that was really, really
59:48
interesting. I thought I've certainly learnt
59:50
a lot and take a lot away from this.
59:52
I'm sure our listeners have and I look forward to working with
59:55
you again in the near future. Thank you very much.
59:59
Thank you. Thanks to Joan solved for taking
1:00:06
time, out to join, Gavin and conversation and to you for
1:00:09
listening. If this episode has inspired you
1:00:12
to find out more about leading change, all the science behind
1:00:15
teams behavior of full reading list is available in the episode
1:00:18
description where you'll find links to the books, recommended
1:00:21
by Jones Saab. If you have any comments or
1:00:24
feedback or suggestions, please contact us at a p.m. podcast at
1:00:29
think publishing .co.uk This podcast has been brought to you
1:00:34
by APM the chartered body for the project profession.
1:00:37
For more information visit to a p.m.
1:00:39
Dot org.uk,