Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Vishal Virani - Rocket.new Founder | The Future Of AI Software Development Belongs to Non-Coders

Transcript

Vishal Virani - Rocket.new Founder | The Future Of AI Software Development Belongs to Non-Coders · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  When you are trying to do something differently, always understand things challenge you.
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  You need to just have a courage to do that at 10.
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  If you get success, you can impact lots of life.
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  When you are building a startup, there should be something which can speak on behalf of you.
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  Before the rocket we were building, started in T-Wise, a Figma to code startup,
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  where you just need to submit your designs and you will convert into code.
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  It was a very hard time to convince someone.
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  Machine can gender the code that can be accepted by human beings.
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  What if your mindset was built to code the future?
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  Vishal Varani is the entrepreneur turning billion dollar ideas into accessible platforms.
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  As co-founder and CEO of D-Wise, he led a developer first app building platform that raised
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  seed funding and rethought how software gets built.
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  From a small city in India to a global tech stage,
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  he's proved that engineering, ambition and clarity can reshape industries.
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  Every six months you are able to see a bigger impact than the entire size industry.
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  If you are not able to end up those things in your product, then you will be vanished.
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  With the capability of AI, anyone can do anything.
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  It's all about what you believe what your user wants.
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  If you will not end up AI, AI will definitely replace you.
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  AI will reform and restructure everything.
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  The going forward may be the role will be AI product designer.
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  If you will build your capabilities in that particular way,
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  AI will not able to replace you.
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  Vishal, tell me about Surat.
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  Surat, let me give you one effect about the Surat.
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  It's the largest diamond manufacturing city in the world.
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  So, out of ten diamonds, nine diamonds get manufactured in my city.
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  Then the people don't know about that story,
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  but whatever diamonds you wear in particular in the US,
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  like out of those ten, nine gets manufactured in Surat.
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  So, Surat is all about the craft.
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  We are largest diamond in the textile manufacturing hub in the world.
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  And it's all about the craft, polishing and handling of the very precious goods.
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  It's like what is known.
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  We are for growing up what pushed you towards technology innovation.
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  What was it?
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  To be honest, it's a great of doing something in the tech world is the main thing.
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  So, even like, let me tell you a story before the Surat.
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  What is my upbringing?
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  So, I'm coming from a farming background.
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  Like my parents and my grandparents were doing the farming in a village.
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  And I was the first engineer of my family,
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  like no one in my family did the graduation before mine.
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  So, when I get into engineering, I realize like this is a very different world.
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  And here is the chance to make something different and make the life of a family really good
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  if I put the hard efforts in.
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  That was a kind of a curiosity because of that I start reading everything.
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  And like, internet does not have any zip code.
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  It's like, free, you can learn anything from that.
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  And that's where I start building the curiosity.
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  And another thing is like, I love travelling.
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  So, I go to places like I travel to Bangalore to learn something.
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  I travel to Delhi in India, like which are like,
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  would take a capital tech capital hub kind of an.
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  And then whenever I got a chance, like I travel to US and New York,
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  I spend a good amount of time in Canada as well.
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  Where I learn the tech and all.
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  And every day it like my curiosity was increasing.
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  Like what I can do in product before that I was running a service and consulting company.
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  Where I work with the clients of like 24 countries.
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  And we learn a lot of a lot of things from them.
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  And it's like always as I said, like I have that greed and the curiosity
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  to know something and to build something from Surat.
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  And that's parts that create the spark.
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  Like, okay, how I can do something.
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  And that's how in 2021 I decided to build a tech air product company.
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  But I took the inspirations from the right folks who are sitting in the SF,
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  who are sitting in the Bangalore and the tech hub.
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  So ultimately, that's where I say this.
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  Like knowledge is bound really.
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  You can learn it from anywhere.
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  If you have a will, if you have a curiosity.
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  So that curiosity is something which always push me to learn new things.
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  Definitely a city does not have that support and that community.
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  But the good part about my city is like, okay,
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  we have few folks who can always help you.
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  And that's where like, okay, whenever I have a doubt,
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  like, okay, I learn new things from a guy sitting in the SF.
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  But how to implement it, I don't know about that.
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  So I can reach out to any senior person in my city because we have a very small city.
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  We are very connected to everyone and they help me.
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  Like, okay, you can think like that.
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  You can do in this way.
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  They have a researcher.
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  So that's how this city helped me to see the dream and build the dream.
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  I know that when you were raising money,
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  you ran into friction with investors.
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  And you spoke about this a few times.
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  You experienced something called the pause,
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  which is I'm assuming you're speaking to investors that don't quite understand.
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  Because the people that have money that are the investors in like in Sarat,
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  they're not the people that usually put money into a lot of tech startups.
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  So I'm still am curious.
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  What made you want to still build in Sarat,
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  knowing that some of the investors weren't as educated in AI and tech.
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  And you were running into this friction when you were raising.
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  I know that the internet doesn't have a zip code.
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  And you could build anywhere.
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  But there was a reason in your mind why you still chose to build in this city.
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  Like, help me understand it from like a strategic perspective.
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  Even when there's a little bit more difficulty finding the right people,
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  talent, investors, mentors, whatever.
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  So like, there are like two things.
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  The first thing is like kind of a DNA of building something.
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  The way I said, like, I was the first engineer of my family.
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  And that's the same DNA.
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  Like, I want to build something first time from my city.
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  And it may spread like lots of other founders.
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  Like, you can do it from anywhere.
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  Don't don't think about your location.
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  So it was quite a philosophical angle.
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  Another part is like every city has a good resources.
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  Because of some opportunity or because of some restrictions,
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  they were not able to move out of the city.
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  So another part was like because I started my first venture in Surat,
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  which was like IT consulting and service company.
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  And we like having a hundreds of service and consulting companies in Surat.
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  So like, you can start service and consulting only from anywhere.
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  And that's that's why I started with Surat.
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  And then I realized like, we have some advantages.
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  Like, I cannot be Google of SF because Google is already there.
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  But if I build something differently and if I build something exciting,
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  I can be a mini Google of Surat.
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  And that's where I can attract a good talent.
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  And at my peak time, I may require like 100 developers or 200 developers.
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  If I'm building a product company, that's what is like teams as you require.
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  Like, okay, out of 20,000 engineers, do I have like those 200 sharp minds who can join me?
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  Where I can help them to think differently,
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  where they can join my vision and they can do things in an out-of-box way.
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  And my answer was yes.
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  So instead of like doing a competition in a bigger city,
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  bigger tech cities like I decided like, okay,
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  can I build something differently in my city where I get the talent and to be honest,
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  like I got it.
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  So that was a strategic angle that I took.
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  And definitely the third part was like, okay,
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  definitely VC generally took that micro moment of pause when they heard Surat.
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  Like, most of the VC's in SF do not even know about where Surat is.
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  But at that time, like, okay, do I have a product which can speak on behalf of me?
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  And again, the answer was yes.
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  Definitely, it was quite a bit of a struggle.
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  But I know like, when you are trying to do something differently,
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  the way I attempted my engineering from the farming background,
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  it was the first time and always like first time things challenge you.
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  But when you, if you are able to correct that thing,
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  then it will give you a different kind of a dopamine.
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  Like, okay, you are the first one who is doing it from your city.
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  That's even a bigger moment to cherish all cherish about.
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  And that's what I picked.
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  Like, okay, it may have a little bit of a trouble.
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  But if I succeed, I can able to create an impact on like lot many people
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  who are building it from different different cities.
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  And one of the examples is like in my recent trip of SF,
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  we hosted a dinner and there were one person who come to me and he said,
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  like, I'm from Mexico.
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  I was working with the Mexican government, Mexico government.
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  And then I moved to SF to build my startup.
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  But when I read your story, I thought it was a mistake.
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  I should at least give a one attempt.
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  Like I can also build it from Mexico.
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  And it may empowered like lots of people around me in a Mexico.
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  But I give up without even, without putting a single attempt.
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  And that's what I always want to create.
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  Like, okay, you need to just have a courage to do that attempt.
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  If you get success, like you can impact a lot of life and that's what happened with me.
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  So it was a kind of a struggle with me because of my location.
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  But that, but I want to do it somehow.
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  And I try to navigate through all the challenges which I was facing from my city.
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  But then like what we celebrate is the results, not the journey.
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  I don't think when people, most people are starting a company.
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  They understand that as an entrepreneur, as somebody who's building something,
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  you will have a lot of people that look up to you.
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  If you're successful, you'll have a lot of people that will look at what you've built
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  and you will inspire a lot of people.
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  And you will give hope to a lot of people who are ambitious, young and just starting out.
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  I don't think a lot of people even think about that when they're first starting
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  because they're so stressed about just making this thing work.
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  But you actually had the foresight to say, hey, I want to give
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  like inspiration to people who are anywhere in the world and help them understand
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  that they don't actually have to be in Silicon Valley or in pick a big city, a Bangalore,
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  wherever. They don't have to be in a major urban city that is known for tech to build something
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  that is bleeding edge, that is disruptive, that is life-changing, not just for themselves as an
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  entrepreneur, but for the customers and ultimately like what you're doing is like really bleeding
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  edge and disruptive and life-changing for the world.
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  So I think that more entrepreneurs, I mean, I don't need everybody to make it harder for themselves.
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  But they should take a second and think, hey, how am I building this?
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  Am I building it in a way that's ethical, that's responsible, that sort of, I don't know,
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  I'm doing it in the best way possible because there's going to be a lot of people that are looking
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  at me and are going to look at me as like the hero in their entrepreneur story and I think that's
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  kind of what you're doing when you're saying that doesn't matter where you are, you can build
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  from anywhere. So I just wanted to point that out, it's a really nice thing.
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  Yeah, just want to add one thing, like don't create a wall of excuse around you.
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  If you are not from the good, I will call it or if you do not speak good English or if you are
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  building it from a tier two city, those are the excuses that you are giving it to yourself
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  to become a good entrepreneur or building a successful startup. It's just all about your real
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  and a courage to build something and then once you have that goal, like how much hours of efforts
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  that you can put to learn something, to unlearn and relearn something and like how serious you
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  are about the goal. So that's where you start making the strategies using the first principles.
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  And once you understand the first principles, you will realize like, okay, location and everything
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  does not matter what matters is like, okay, how you understand your users, how you understand
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  their problems and how you build something and then you will find your ways. Now this idea of
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  the pause, like when you're pitching this to an investor and they're saying there's no way you
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  can build this in Sarat. I think that I'm going to make an assumption here and you could tell me
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  from right or wrong, but I feel like if you're pitching AI to investors at all, there's already
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  going to be a pause because it's something that's never been done before, but you're also pitching it
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  to the employees that you're constantly pitching and you're constantly getting people on board.
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  So when you're building something that truly has never been done before, I think a lot of people
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  are going to experience this pause like this doubt in the stakeholders and the people that they want
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  to get involved in the mission. Walk me through what you experience as somebody who's building something
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  in Sarat, but also building something that again has never been done before. How do you deal with
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  people doubting you? How do you deal with the pause from investors, from your employees?
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  How do you overcome it? How do you keep going after I don't even know how many meetings you went
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  into where they said like, no, thanks. I'm not interested. Like what keeps you going past the point
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  where a lot of people would throw in the talent give up? So there are like two things. The first is
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  it's not just about the city. Sometimes it's about your educational background like from which college
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  you did your engineering or PhD or whatever it is. And like what your ex company like okay, I'm
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  ex-Mata, ex-Google, ex Netflix and then the city. So to be honest, like I'm a founder which is like
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  having a false in everything like I'm not from any good ex companies like ex-Google and all.
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  I always introduce myself as ex of my ex because right after the graduation I started my
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  first company and then second and third venture. So I always introduce like I'm ex of my ex.
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  I did graduation from a very ordinary college which no one knows and then from the surreal.
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  So what matters is like okay, there is when you are building a startup, there should be something
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  which can speak on behalf of you. Sometimes you're a domain like okay, I work in a matter for
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  this particular AI project and that speaks about you and your way will be very easy where people
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  can join you or people can fund you. The same way like maybe sometimes you're a city that you
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  are living and from where you're building that can speak on behalf of you. If you have nothing,
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  there is one thing that always can speak about you which is your work which is your product.
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  So I knew it very well like okay, I don't have any of these three things. So let me build the
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  product right. Let me let me try to get the kind of an users that can prove my capabilities.
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  And when someone will use my product either as a VC or as a user, they will start believing in
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  like these guys are capable enough to build something. So definitely we got multiple rejections
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  like whoever didn't try a product, they may reject us, they raise their eyebrow when they
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  heard about the surat and then they have the questions how you can build it from surat.
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  But when the current partners they tried my product first and that's where they get impressed
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  like okay, this is a world class product. And then it was an inbound interest from them like okay,
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  we want to talk to you and when they when they understand the vision, when they understand the
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  underlying engineering behind the product and everything, they got that conviction and we got
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  the terms it. So a simple thing is like okay, you need something which you can use it as a strength.
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  Either it can be your city, it can be your background. And if you don't have anything, just use
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  your product as an advantage. Show the product, try to build the conviction, you may get
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  a couple of rejection is fine. But once someone will understand your product and your vision,
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  they will join you. So don't worry about that, just build right product for the right user set.
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  Where did the idea for a rocket come from? What was the problem that you were trying to solve?
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  So I would say like before the rocket we were building a started in device which was like a
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  Figma to code startup where you just need to submit your designs and we'll convert into code.
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  And it was a pre LLM age when it was a very hard time to convince someone like machine can
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  generate the code that can be accepted by a human being. So we started in 2021 with the vision of
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  like we want to automate the entire software development lifecycle. So it was at that time,
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  it was a very hard engineering problem. People were not ready to accept the code that is generated
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  by the machines. So we started building and then we realized like okay LLM make it the entire process
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  super powerful and we understand the domain very well like what kind of a code can be accepted
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  by users, how they think, what they think and all. So it was like about three and a half years of
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  like entire engineering and the knowledge of this particular space and we see like when we see
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  like okay now people are habituated, now people are changing their entire kind of a behavior with
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  the AI like they want to create the applications at their own, they don't want to reach out to any
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  software developers like product managers wants to build something that at their own,
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  soloprene wants to build something at their own, we see like okay with the AI people now start
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  changing the behavior. We realized okay this is the right time and that's where we pivot from
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  device to rocket. We shut down that entire startup because it was like a pre LLM era and like our entire
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  positioning was attached to a Figma to code because we started with that we were kind of
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  a category creator in that particular space. So we decided like okay this is something which
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  we should live now and we want to go for a bigger vision where we can impact the world with
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  our web solution approach where we can provide a solution of every problem for our users
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  doesn't matter what they're doing so the longer vision is like okay if you have the problem
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  just come on our platform and we'll give you a very deep solution about it and the first thing
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  we started with coding because we already had that background we understand that particular space
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  very well and that's how we pivot from device to rocket. So rocket was not just an idea which we
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  get it overnight it was like three and a half years of learning understanding of the user,
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  the understanding of the technology and everything which pushes to get out of the comfort zone
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  of PY which was growing steadily we had like a couple of million dollars in our bank at that point
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  of time and we decided with the way LLM is getting powerful this will be the only small feature in
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  future so like do I need to just sit on that particular product that we are building it from
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  last three and a half years or can we pivot and can we go for a bigger thing and that's where
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  my co-founder and I agreed on something which can impact the world better than what we were
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  building at device and that's how we started rocket. You did a very difficult thing which is pivot
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  away from something that is arguably successful I think that many entrepreneurs have a hard time
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  pivoting even when it's not successful to be quite honest but pivoting when it is a degree of
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  successful how do you know just as a general sort of teaching you know a teaching moment for entrepreneurs
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  how do you know when you should pivot away like what was the thing that made you actually
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  make the decision probably like a hard decision and say hey it's working but there's like a
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  much bigger opportunity over here let's go after that. As an entrepreneur see you are a chief
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  visionary you need to be chief visionary officer who always can think beyond five years or ten years
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  so when GPT-3 launched like the first town hall that I did with my team was like okay this is the
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  iPhone moment and this is not understand like this is just iPhone version 3 whatever you experience
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  with the GPT-3 is just iPhone version 3 we don't need to think about iPhone version 3 we need to
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  think of power of an iPhone version 15 how powerful it will be in future and we need to make all the
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  decisions which can be aligned to like iPhone version 15's power so just imagine how powerful
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  GPT-15 will be and when when we try to just even imagine what kind of an powerful what kind of
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  power AI will have after 10 years or 15 years every one of us was shocked like okay world will be
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  very different and that's why we always say like there is a world before GPT-3 and there is a world
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  after GPT-3 and are we ready to adopt this new world reality and the answer was no like okay right
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  now the current product is is not ready for that so do we need to choose the comfort or do we
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  need to choose the conviction because we have a conviction on the new tech like okay this is going
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  to change the world so we choose the conviction over a comfort and and and that's how like that was
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  a moment where we start this uh doing our research like okay what can we build a part of like
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  this startup and and that's where we make a decision like okay whenever we are ready with our
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  research we will pivot and pivot and it will take like uh it took almost like two years to figure
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  out like okay what is the right tech where we can where we can create a very bigger impact and
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  when we were ready with the POC we decided like to pivot so it's always about like for all founders
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  conviction and and and the you need to understand like a change in a market like and what at what
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  pace initially when says says application statement it was like after 10 years you you were able to
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  see the impact now every six months you were able you are able to see a bigger impact then then
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  the entire science industry and if you are if you are not able to see that change and if you are
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  not able to end up those change in your product then you will be vanished so ultimately that was a
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  simple thought and every time we need to keep ourselves awake like okay what if GPD or cloud will
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  do something or what foundational model is doing right now if they do something similar for a rocket
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  what will be our strategy so being a founder you always need to see like okay what will be the
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  after three months or six months or 12 months or a two year after two years what will happen
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  and are you ready for that or are you doing anything which will help you to survive in that particular
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  market and again I'm a I'm a very big believer of a first principle so when you think from that
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  angle ultimately you will make all the decisions which makes you future ready so doesn't matter like
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  what I see you are selecting what product roadmap you are picking for your product and like do you
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  want to continue with the current concept of your product or not every answer will come when you
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  look at the future and that's what we talk about the vision like okay what is your vision why we
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  talk about that what is like that vision is like how how far you can see is doesn't matter is a
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  possible vision or a possible vision or a completely impossible vision but are you able to see that far
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  or not as a founder there's a most critical skill that every founder needs to have and when you're
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  able to see that future you will able to easily pivot anyone can do a pivot or anyone can change
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  their path if they are able to visualize what is going to happen in future can you explain to me what
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  it means to think in first principles as a founder I love this idea and I think that's probably
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  why you are going to be successful but I think that especially for first-time founders
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  they are a little bit more short-sighted and they do think okay they're chasing revenue
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  more often than not and I think that's why you know I just mentioned if you have a successful
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  business it's very hard to pivot completely it's probably not because they're thinking from
• 23:26
  first principles but explain that concept when did you first learn about this concept and
• 23:30
  and and how do you how do you like apply it to rocket and and how you think so I first
• 23:37
  time I heard about this principle from the story of Alan must like Alan must is like of
• 23:44
  very big billiard of a first principle and that's how he built all the starters where
• 23:49
  everyone is saying like okay you cannot run a two big companies in parallel where he's running
• 23:54
  like x and a SpaceX in parallel so he was like the one he's the one who is challenging every
• 24:00
  norms of the world like okay you cannot build a rocket which can come back on earth again he
• 24:05
  built it and when when I was trying to understand his philosophy and thinking I got to know about
• 24:10
  the first principle and that's where like a first time I read the concept I try to understand each
• 24:15
  and every element how I can adapt it in my life and and that was the moment from where I start
• 24:21
  learning about it I start practicing it every time I ask questions like okay why I'm doing this I
• 24:26
  get into granular detail of my decision like okay if you will not do this is it the end or not so
• 24:32
  ultimately in the first principle it's very simple it talks about like core fundamentals make a
• 24:36
  decision based on the core fundamentals like okay if I just give an example how I understand the
• 24:41
  GPT-3 different than anyone else is like everyone was saying this is the prompt engineering this is
• 24:46
  the prompt technology that unique to add up and that's how LLM functions but for me is like okay
• 24:52
  why LLM is acting like that so I will like do a lot of prompting with with the LLM I will try
• 24:58
  to understand that fundamental behavior I will I will read like okay how LLM is is functioning I will
• 25:04
  get into every micro details of granular details of those those techniques and all and I will
• 25:10
  reinvent my own techniques like I don't want to follow any prompt techniques given by the world
• 25:16
  because like I understand the granularity so I will build my own theme so the first principle well
• 25:21
  will help you to build your own methods not like okay if you will follow someone's method
• 25:27
  if they stuck you will stuck but when you understand from the first principle you can invent your
• 25:32
  own methods so that's why I always say like focus on the principles if you just focus on the
• 25:36
  methods you will stuck somewhere but when you're focusing on the principles if something is not
• 25:41
  working you know how you can control it and that is applicable in all the decisions of your life
• 25:47
  and that's why that's what I always believe like okay do not just read blog books and all
• 25:53
  understand underlying psychology or underlying psychology and the granular detail behind those
• 26:01
  decisions from that book and then try to think like in your perspective how you can build your own
• 26:06
  methods so that is like first principle thinking where you will not just accept anything in that
• 26:12
  pure form you will just divide it into like smaller smaller chunks and you will get into granularity
• 26:18
  and then you will create your own methodology out of it quick question what's your go to when you
• 26:25
  got 10 minutes before a meeting or a workout for me it just used to be whatever I could grab which
• 26:30
  usually meant skipping meals entirely or just grabbing something that left me crashing an hour later
• 26:35
  because it was just full of garbage that's why I'm partnering with fuel this black edition ready to
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  drink is a complete meal so it has 35 grams of protein six grams of fiber 35 essential vitamins and
• 26:47
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  fridge and honestly it's solved the whole back-to-back meetings go go go non-stop no time to eat
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  problem super well and this one's new for me it's fuels daily greens I had the blueberry this morning
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  honestly first impression it was way better than I expected it's developed by registered nutritionist
• 27:09
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• 27:15
  and just one gram of sugar I throw one back first thing before my morning calls every single morning
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  post checkout survey to help support the show that is huill.com slash Scott they really make healthy
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  living case amazing even if you're on the go healthy eating healthy lifestyle doesn't have to
• 28:00
  taste bad it doesn't have to suck net suite is a success story partner now what is a future hold for
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  business if you ask nine experts you'll get 10 answers bull market bear market rates are off rates
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  to AI and machine learning for free that's net suite dot com slash scott clary that's net suite dot
• 29:05
  com slash scott clary net suite dot com slash scott clary i think we're actually in an age of
• 29:12
  of information consumption but not actually applying it people are reading you know a book a week
• 29:18
  but they're just skimming over it and they're not actually understanding the core principles or
• 29:22
  the actual information how it impacts their life for their business like you it i think it's
• 29:27
  much smarter to go deep on a few topics and understand how they actually impact and test if they
• 29:33
  actually impact your life for your business and the way that they say they will versus just
• 29:39
  accumulating facts and accumulating ideas here i want to make one example if i have the time so let's
• 29:45
  you have lots of time go for it i love this i love this idea because it's something that's so
• 29:50
  relevant to me right now because especially for the podcast i mean i love when people listen to
• 29:54
  the podcast obviously it's what i do for a living but i think my biggest call to action is like
• 30:00
  yeah you listen to a great interview but are you actually taking these ideas and are you testing
• 30:05
  them out in your life or are you just collecting all of these ideas and assuming them to be true
• 30:11
  and then you're parroting them in your board meeting or with your employees or with your investors
• 30:15
  and you sound smart but you actually have no idea what these ideas really mean yeah and so whenever
• 30:21
  you are making decisions so let's say the way you say like people read lots of books and then they
• 30:26
  don't know about to do next so let's say i have a problem and someone is coming up with the concept
• 30:32
  of an okr you will read it you will find like okr can change my life and you will start implementing
• 30:37
  okr and then you will stuck somewhere why it happened simple when you when you decode that when
• 30:43
  you get into root cause analysis the first thing is like okay when are you bringing the okr book
• 30:47
  you need to understand what circumstances someone introduce the okr in google and then you need to
• 30:53
  understand those were like a Larry page Sarge who understand the okr what kind of an talent he
• 31:00
  he he is having at that particular time in the past like all all greatest of the greatest
• 31:07
  brain of the silicon valley was working with those two brilliant people who were inventing the
• 31:12
  Google and those guys were the one who opted the okr they adopted the okr they they implemented
• 31:21
  in real life and now you you see your situation how many people you are having around you with a
• 31:27
  very high ownership and that kind of mindset that kind of an intellectualness so you need to
• 31:34
  understand the situation very well and in what particular situation okr was introduced by someone
• 31:39
  and adopted by someone if you have a very similar situation you can definitely adopt it as it is
• 31:44
  but if you have a very different situation and if you try to adopt okr by just reading a okr book
• 31:50
  you are going to stop and and that's where all the founders needs to put their own
• 31:57
  situation they need to think deeply definitely you can you can bring that structure but you
• 32:02
  need to modify it or you need to explain it to your team in a very different way if you just
• 32:06
  distribute okr books to everyone and on day two if you are thinking like ok everyone will be
• 32:12
  adopted everyone will adopt the okr and your company is going to be very different it's not
• 32:16
  going to happen and I'm telling it from my own experience I did it before four five years
• 32:22
  and every year when so at that time I even I didn't knew about the first principles so I was making
• 32:29
  such kind of decisions without like thinking about anything else but now I'm thinking like five
• 32:34
  times and even like I'm not 100 percent perfect in my decisions but at least I learned it from
• 32:39
  that and I always try to implement first things so I'm not expert of it but I'm learning every
• 32:43
  day and trying and practicing it so maybe after like a couple of years I can be like completely
• 32:48
  first principle driven founder right now I'm not 100 percent first principle driven founder
• 32:52
  but still I think like this so we're in this like awkward AI phase right now
• 32:59
  but explain to me what rocket is actually doing and why it's sort of solving for
• 33:05
  the function that it's actually like it's how it's actually building apps but also how it's
• 33:10
  different than all these other tools that are kind of like falling flat so like there are
• 33:15
  there are a couple of things so let me start with rocket rocket is a wide solutioning platform where
• 33:21
  we help users to solve their problem right now by generating the code and the vision is to as I
• 33:28
  say it like solve the problem with a very different spectrum so our upcoming releases are like
• 33:32
  completely aligned to the bigger vision of solving the problem in every facet so ultimately we'll
• 33:37
  talk about that but right now that's what we are doing and I'm talking about that particular part
• 33:42
  so you just need to come and and give your app idea like okay I want to build this particular
• 33:46
  digital business just like four five liners nothing else and rocket will do the analysis of that
• 33:52
  particular space geography in for which particular demographics you want to build the application
• 33:57
  everything in like 2020 2025 minutes and it will come up with a complete concept like okay if you
• 34:04
  want to solve this particular problem this is this this can be like really good solution and it will
• 34:09
  give you like complete eight nine ten screens of like solutions like okay how you can design your
• 34:14
  dashboard to solve particular problem or how you can create the form what what fields should be there
• 34:18
  what kind of an validation you can keep so from validations to interconnections to every component
• 34:24
  will will generate in like 25 minutes and that's how by just putting a one prompt will help you to
• 34:30
  solve we will help you to visualize the entire solution of your problem this is just like first part
• 34:36
  then we have a commands so ultimately like okay now if you if you don't like our design thing
• 34:43
  you can just put one slash command like okay slash change design theme and we will help you
• 34:47
  with your new design theme you can just upload your reference image so sometimes now I'm covering
• 34:52
  a one more answer that one more question that you that you were asking like many people fill
• 34:59
  and this they feel like okay this is not the system with solving my time problem actually it's
• 35:04
  increasing my time and why it happens is like okay being a human you have something in your mind
• 35:11
  you think like okay I didn't like this design this is a very broad statement you have a some
• 35:17
  reference in back of your mind and you are trying to map that particular thing with with the
• 35:22
  outputs generated by AI system and and that's what you are not liking all about and now if you
• 35:28
  want to explain that entire scenario to AI it will take like a 500 lines of prompt or like 50 lines
• 35:33
  of prompt depends on like how dissatisfied you are with the output and people are not willing to
• 35:39
  put that explanation inside the AI system and that's well they see AI system is failed and many
• 35:45
  times we see a we observe like what people put in in in the chat box even with the interaction with
• 35:51
  the chat jpg or with the rocket system I don't like it can you can you give me something else
• 35:56
  now I don't like it and give me something else both are a very broad statement and that's where
• 36:01
  AI do not understand you and we know like okay you are not the great prompt engineer because
• 36:07
  you didn't learn about it and like AI systems should be a capable enough to understand your
• 36:12
  context and everything and that's where we have another feature where you can say just like
• 36:16
  slash command design a change design theme upload any inspiration that you're having from a
• 36:22
  drip ball or from any other system that's it and we will automatically identify what are you trying
• 36:27
  to say and we will change the entire design theme in the same way layout fix or let's say now if
• 36:33
  you want to implement login people are saying like okay you need to understand the prompt
• 36:36
  engineering to implement authentication what we are saying just use one slash command slash
• 36:41
  authentication press enter and we will implement that entity if you want to implement like a
• 36:47
  chat system using the open AI or a cloud anything just slash open AI implement open AI with chat
• 36:54
  system that's it in eight minutes of time we'll implement entire chatbot system with integration
• 37:00
  of an open AI so what we are building is a smarter system than putting a core instead of
• 37:05
  in putting a cognitive load on our user and that is like a fundamental observation between the
• 37:10
  other guys who are building this building a system in this particular space versus why we are
• 37:15
  very different our entire focus is on providing a solution in a most easiest and the comfortable way
• 37:20
  for our users instead of pushing them to learn about a new prompt engineering techniques and like
• 37:28
  define more and more prompts to get the system so right now what everyone is doing is like okay you
• 37:32
  need to put a prompt they will provide you one one screen of output then you need to put more
• 37:37
  and more prompt like okay I need this as well that as well and and that's how they need to take
• 37:42
  that entire cognitive load of building the system versus here we are saying just put a file
• 37:46
  liners of problem statement sit and relax after 25 minutes we will notify you your system is ready
• 37:52
  to review just come if you want to modify anything just do it and that's it that's that's what our
• 37:58
  current system is capable of now going forward what we are saying is like why they are calling
• 38:05
  our system a wide soliciting because building a application become a commodity is nowadays on any
• 38:10
  platform you can build the application but still the bigger problem is like what's to build now let's
• 38:16
  say many of us is having idea I want to build something in this particular space but I don't have
• 38:23
  people who can do enough research for me or they can put the enough effort to help me like what should
• 38:29
  exactly what exactly I should build to achieve something and that's where the entire
• 38:35
  vibe soliciting concept come in a picture and nearby future will help our user to think from a
• 38:40
  very different perspective there will solve the day zero problem by telling them this is the
• 38:46
  we'll do a research on behalf of them we'll write the PRDs we'll do everything for them
• 38:51
  and they just need to select the PRD from the PRD we'll generate the entire application so that's how
• 38:57
  our entire focus is a wide soliciting platform is solving a day zero day one and day two problem
• 39:03
  and when we talk about the day two problem is like okay whenever you make your system lie
• 39:07
  that's not the one time job you need to observe lots of data you need to think about the scale you
• 39:12
  need to think about how you can create a better user experience for your end users and that's
• 39:18
  where we'll give you like more and more context over system you can plug in your third party data
• 39:24
  analytic systems and all and we will suggest like okay here you can do this improvement that's how
• 39:29
  you can implement your you can make your security better and users just need to select those
• 39:35
  suggestions and we will implement it automatically so we are building a very very advanced
• 39:39
  gigantic system to solve like a problem of a day zero to day two so that's where they we will
• 39:46
  empower them so ultimately the goal is to create a impact GDP by providing them as a kind of
• 39:52
  platform where they can go digital where they can grow where they can take their product to a
• 39:57
  next level doesn't matter either they're building a D2C system sitting somewhere in let's say
• 40:03
  Brazil or Africa but they have a very good product and if they want to go lie if they want to
• 40:07
  digitize the entire application they should do it without any technical knowledge like just put a
• 40:13
  prompt we will handle rest of the thing for you and this is a feature that we are able to say
• 40:17
  with the rocket and that's what we are solving right now it's actually you're mentioning they should
• 40:22
  be able to do it without any technical knowledge but it's actually more than just technical knowledge
• 40:27
  it's it's like full product knowledge it's it's understanding everything that like you mentioned
• 40:32
  before like understanding data and understanding like UI UX and understanding security features so
• 40:39
  it's it's not just saying like I want this app to work based on what my prompt is it's like okay I
• 40:44
  want this app to work great here's a first version but then we're giving you all these recommendations
• 40:49
  that probably a non technical person wouldn't even know to think about and we're going to implement those
• 40:55
  because when you look at a lot of tools so what I was just you know discussing about how all
• 41:00
  these companies trying to implement AI and all the people that are using AI and the companies
• 41:04
  realize it is taking them longer than just doing it themselves so they're they're solving for I
• 41:11
  guess the best way to put it is like what is it they're solving for day one is at it and then day two
• 41:18
  at breaks or day two it's is that is that a fair assumption with a lot of the AI tools that are out
• 41:24
  being used right now like true so everyone is just trying to generate the code and and give it to
• 41:29
  the user like okay you can just host it on our platform and you can build our application but no one
• 41:34
  is talking about like once I go live how will help me to increase my revenue how you will increase
• 41:40
  how you will help me to like handle my scale and everything and as as you mentioned like okay
• 41:48
  it needs to be recommended by system like we know the technology non technical guy don't know
• 41:54
  anything about the product management he don't know anything about the data analytics he don't know
• 41:58
  anything anything about like how to grow his digital business because he was doing a non-digital
• 42:03
  business still now like he was running a fitness center but because of your platform he jump into
• 42:08
  digitalization of his business so systems should recommend him and that is all like day two problem
• 42:14
  you have a product you have application in front of you but now how to get a business out of it
• 42:20
  is something that should recommend by the AI and that's we call a day two problem and that's
• 42:24
  where our internet focus is all about why do you think founders optimize for like this this demo or
• 42:31
  this this first version versus day two like it makes sense to me like if you want to build again
• 42:36
  if you want to be a product first organization if you want to build a company that centers around
• 42:40
  a really good product that solves a really important problem solving for day two seems to be the
• 42:46
  most logical thing but I mean we see a lot of founders not not building for a day two problem they
• 42:53
  just sort of build for that flashy demo or that first experience what do you think that is like
• 42:59
  why like I mean I've used vibe coding tools myself and I've experienced literally everything that
• 43:04
  you're discussing and I'm like this kind of seems like a little bit lazy like it seems like they
• 43:10
  didn't like go all the way and I don't quite understand why but I don't know what's your what's
• 43:17
  your thought is it just because things are moving so quickly maybe see I respect all the founders in
• 43:25
  fact like because like loveable and bold started this vibe coding space we got the idea we can
• 43:31
  also also get into this so here here are the things like every every startup having their own
• 43:37
  individuality like okay maybe loveable is focusing on creating the lending page a good branding
• 43:43
  website where people can come and create a digital portfolio so as a founder is always about like
• 43:49
  who is your ICP for whom you are building what is your particular vision is all about and even
• 43:54
  the day one problem is having a it's own depth so it's depends on the vision of the founder what
• 44:00
  they're building and where they are getting the good growth for us like when we were deciding
• 44:04
  our ICP like we put some of the things into non ICP bracket like we don't want to get into that
• 44:10
  because someone is already solving it so getting into that zone can then create unnecessary
• 44:16
  competition for you and there is no chance of in growth so everyone whoever is building in any
• 44:21
  particular space as an entrepreneur they are doing some good work and they know their ICP very well
• 44:25
  they know that GTN strategy very well and that's why they're building in that particular strategy
• 44:29
  and when you know like okay you are deep into it and when you are getting a really growth by
• 44:34
  solving that particular thing you will not able you may not want to get into something else
• 44:40
  from the very beginning definitely once you see like okay maybe we are launching in that particular
• 44:45
  space we are getting a good traction they won't also jump the way we started vibe coding after
• 44:51
  after seeing the growth of loveable and bold so it's all about like market research understanding
• 44:56
  of your ICP what they want it's it's all about the user what they are looking from you so from
• 45:02
  our GTN strategy what we got is a serious audience and they were like asking us a very hard
• 45:07
  questions how you will solve my problem and that's where we decided like okay we want to build
• 45:14
  the entire spectrum from a day zero to day two instead of just focusing on the day one problem so
• 45:19
  everyone can do with the capability of anyone can do anything it's all about like what do you believe
• 45:25
  what is your philosophy and what your user wants I have I will play devil's advocate and you can be
• 45:30
  you can be an impartial you can be an impartial founder and you don't have to have an opinion on this
• 45:37
  but but in my opinion I think that some companies have grown very quickly because of the hype around
• 45:46
  AI and if there was not the hype around AI they would have not raised the amount of money that
• 45:51
  they would have erased and I think that we're going to see at some point companies with real products
• 45:58
  that solve real problems those will be the companies that last and I think there's going to be some
• 46:03
  companies that have grown incredibly quickly they will have to pivot or do something because
• 46:09
  their solutions are great but I don't think they justify the amount of money they've raised or
• 46:15
  the valuations so that's my personal thing it's it's not about the valuation but see on what
• 46:23
  parameter you are building a business I always believe in sustainable business and when I talk
• 46:27
  about a sustainable business like okay what kind of an gross margins you are having what kind of
• 46:32
  in tech to LTV ratio you are having like is it like your growth is justifiable or not because
• 46:38
  like sometimes rapid growth between that kind of a situation like every user cost you a penny
• 46:44
  which is getting into negative direction so if you are having a negative gross margin and if you
• 46:48
  are growing very quickly you need to raise more and more money just to survive because you know
• 46:54
  you are losing your money on every penny you are earning so I don't call it a sustainable
• 46:59
  business definitely if you know your metrics very well if you know your mathematics like okay this
• 47:03
  particular time if LLM cost goes down and I will I will be a profitable company where I will
• 47:10
  have a millions of users go like you can do that but that's the bigger assumptions like okay LLM
• 47:16
  cost goes down what if it will not so it's it's not a problem of money it's a problem of
• 47:23
  in like mathematics like what are you doing what are you believing and what are your assumptions
• 47:28
  that should be a line that what I believe like okay only crazy funding will not help you to
• 47:36
  make any decisions like okay that will help you to survive if you are growing without unsustainable
• 47:42
  metrics so that's what I believe this is my opinion one thing that's interesting about rocket
• 47:49
  because most other competitors in your space they deliver code in you know sub three minutes you
• 47:54
  mentioned before that rocket takes you about 25 minutes so what was the rationale behind that
• 48:01
  obviously I'm assuming because it takes a little bit longer it's it's creating more code it's
• 48:06
  taking its time it's it's creating like a very high quality product but when all the competitors
• 48:12
  are pushing things out in a very you know in two three minutes and then you're pushing things out
• 48:17
  in 25 minutes was that a concern obviously I know that like Fortune 100 companies are piloting
• 48:23
  rocket right now you have like over 10,000 paying subscribers so it's working but obviously that
• 48:30
  was a calculated risk that you took it was a quite calculated risk the way you said initially we
• 48:36
  had a a very big internal debate like okay we'll be able to create the impact like people will wait
• 48:42
  for 25 minutes or not and initial thought was like let's do it and let's see it in the data
• 48:48
  will people wait for 25 minutes or not and we see like okay 90% of our users are ready to wait
• 48:53
  because we have a we can see like okay they wait for 25 minutes and then they check the preview
• 48:58
  and everything and that that funnel was like after sign up after putting the first from like 90
• 49:03
  90 to 92% of people were waiting just to see a preview what we are generating and and then
• 49:11
  so we got the confidence like okay we can go with this now why we are doing like why we are
• 49:15
  sticking to 25 minutes of philosophy versus three minutes three minutes of generation philosophy
• 49:21
  because what we believe is like a kind of an apple to apple comparison like right now we are
• 49:25
  generating 8 to 9 10 screens of output from a single prompt without putting any kind of
• 49:31
  incognitive load on our users whereas I said like okay most of the people are just generating one
• 49:37
  screen then you need to put lots of prompts to get your final output and all and as a user you
• 49:41
  need to think what you want in a system but in our case like what we observe is like user won't AI
• 49:47
  to surprise them like okay I am putting my problem as the AI you help me to solve and in a 25 minutes
• 49:53
  of time actually we are doing all that research and we are giving like end-to-end system as I said
• 49:57
  with the validations and all where users here a bigger level of an impact so if I put our 25 minutes
• 50:03
  of output with this three minute of output if you if you want to build a very similar level of
• 50:08
  a system it may take up to three days of time for you because you will constantly put new prompt
• 50:14
  iterate it you will do all sort of an work which we are doing in a 25 minutes of time and this
• 50:20
  is like quite a complex system but even if I consider the easy system in general in an average like
• 50:26
  we are reducing eight hours of work to 25 minutes of 25 minutes in rocket platform and when I
• 50:32
  say eight hours of work I am talking about like other a vibrating platform if you if you want to
• 50:38
  achieve the same quality and same level of comprehensiveness you may spend eight hours of time to
• 50:43
  doing all the prompting work versus we are able to generate in 25 minutes so it's in actually it's
• 50:47
  not 25 minutes it's our first results we are taking for the generating the first results we are
• 50:52
  taking 25 minutes of time I think that I have you found have you found with a lot of companies
• 50:59
  just building in the AI space they're optimizing for speed like do you see that that's sort of a
• 51:05
  common thread between many companies yes so and many times I've also got this feedback like okay
• 51:11
  the real vibe is to generate the results in three minutes because we are building a wide-coding
• 51:16
  platform I say real vibe is and my philosophy is like real vibe is like delivering the solutions
• 51:21
  without putting a cognitive load on your user and that's always a debate and like many times I
• 51:27
  heard this feedback but this is the feedback from a generic perspective like general feedback and
• 51:33
  all but when I look at my data the funnel and all the kind of in conversion that we are having
• 51:38
  we see like okay this is working really well for us and this is the kind of in USB that we are
• 51:42
  building against our computer so we stick to that particular philosophy like definitely we are
• 51:47
  trying to reduce our time when we were started it was like 25 minutes like recently in the recent
• 51:52
  update of last week now we are taking only 12 to 15 minutes of time so it's not like we just want
• 51:56
  to stick to a 25 minutes of time but to where you what we fundamentally will if is like our first
• 52:02
  result should be comprehensive enough it should provide the solution so we want to stick to that
• 52:06
  particular philosophy and wherever we can able to reduce the time with our engineering efforts
• 52:11
  without compromising with the output quality we'll focus on that so definitely it's not like okay
• 52:17
  we are not getting about our user but like okay if if if I need to make a conscious call
• 52:23
  between our output quality versus speed I will always focus on the output quality it's so funny
• 52:29
  how what rocket allows you to do and what any technically any vibe coding platform allows a
• 52:38
  non-technical person to do is to create something that they wouldn't have ever even been able to
• 52:44
  have done in like a year with their current level of technical knowledge for the majority of like
• 52:50
  non-technical like vibe coding users yet it's wild how everybody is so is like there everybody's
• 52:59
  attention span now is like an all-time one right so fundamental you know fundamental behaviors of
• 53:04
  users is getting changed right change now yes it is it is but it's not just because of it's not
• 53:10
  just because of LLMs or or or other AI tools I think that everybody's attention span across the
• 53:16
  board has just been reduced to almost nothing because of how we consume content I mean like we're
• 53:21
  in like a gig economy where we can have everything delivered to us instantaneously we're optimizing for
• 53:26
  30 to 45 second videos on social media but I'm just I'm laughing at the fact that somebody is
• 53:32
  using rocket to code the code something somebody who couldn't can't code like somebody who can't
• 53:37
  code is using rocket to code something and there's a conversation about 25 minutes versus three minutes
• 53:45
  when a year ago like you would have had to have spent like a hundred thousand dollars I don't even
• 53:54
  know plus higher the developer plus like it's so wild yeah even like even like before like a
• 54:02
  couple of years years it someone tell you like okay this is a problem statement how we will
• 54:07
  solve it what will be your dashboard looks like or how this feature looks like you may take like
• 54:12
  seven days of time just to think about the solution of that particular problem statement now in
• 54:18
  25 minutes of time like in fact like in a 15 minutes of time you are getting a solution you are
• 54:22
  getting a code you are getting everything and still it still looks like okay you are taking a
• 54:26
  25 five minutes of time to generate this solution like look at this 15 days of effort versus 15
• 54:31
  minutes it's like and that's a that's a good time and that's that's where I was talking about that
• 54:37
  iPhone was in three years this power of iPhone 15 this is this isn't the like power of AI and
• 54:43
  this isn't beginning we are just scratching a surface like after five years it is going to be like
• 54:48
  even powerful and and that's why I advise everyone just just if if you're still in that more of
• 54:55
  like okay should I should I add up the AI or not should I get into that or not
• 55:01
  doesn't matter you adapt it or not just try it and that's where you will realize like okay how you
• 55:06
  can change your thinking and how you can change your entire workflows and everything the one
• 55:11
  thing that you talk about like lots of people I forget to answer that question in fact that you
• 55:16
  talk about lots of people try to implement there and then they went back to their original workflows
• 55:23
  because they were not able to figure out the values one thing that I hope though which is quite
• 55:28
  different before like when we were implementing the says size applications are sourced to
• 55:33
  in our organization what we are trying to do is like okay which size application is best for my
• 55:37
  workflow and that's how you will adopting it nowadays the world is very different if you think
• 55:44
  you will you need to you don't want to change your workflow and some AI system will come and
• 55:49
  sit in your workflow it's a different it's it's a wrong thinking you should think of you should
• 55:55
  think about the restructuring of your flows a process is team and everything to add up the AI
• 56:01
  and and that's the right way to do it and again think like in that iPhone version three like before
• 56:06
  iPhone how you were operating the mobile phone or even before mobile phones how you were operating
• 56:11
  versus and then mobile can you you didn't say like okay mobile's need to sit in my workflows
• 56:16
  you change your entire habits you change your work style you change your everything
• 56:20
  to adopt that smartphone in your lifestyle so the same way if you want to adopt AI efficiently
• 56:27
  and effectively you should think about the restructuring of your process team and everything and
• 56:32
  then you can find out a you will figure out any tool which will help you to boost your productivity
• 56:37
  like 10 x 20 x that you you will never think about but when you try to fit AI inside your workflows
• 56:44
  you will say like this is not working because the tool is didn't meant to be like that so that
• 56:50
  that's all there's a one observation that I'm having and maybe like for all your viewers I
• 56:55
  I can give give this advice like okay think differently when you are trying to add up the
• 56:59
  AI in your life cycle indeed is a success story partner now if you're hiring indeed is all you
• 57:03
  need let me give you an example if I needed to hire a new editor for this show I'd go to indeed
• 57:07
  and be super specific not just can you edit audio I'd say I need someone who's edited a
• 57:11
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  done this before and here's the thing with indeed sponsored jobs I'd get people who fit that
• 57:20
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  clary just go to indeed dot com slash clary right now and support our show by saying you heard about
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  indeed on this podcast indeed dot com slash clary terms and conditions apply hiring do it the right
• 58:14
  way with indeed hub spot is a success story partner now look if you're in marketing right now or if
• 58:19
  you're an entrepreneur who's hired marketers or if you're a founder who leads a whole marketing
• 58:23
  team you know the drill you are creating content for 12 different channels you're launching campaigns
• 58:28
  you're scoring leads you're analyzing all the data and somewhere in there you're actually supposed
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  to do great marketing and it's exhausting and your spread to them but this is what actually works
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• 58:45
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• 58:50
  that you shouldn't have to do yourself it remixes your content instantly so you're not starting
• 58:55
  from scratch every single time it handles lead scoring so you know exactly who to focus on which
• 59:00
  customers will probably convert and it pulls all your analytics and your data and KPIs into one
• 59:06
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  that hub spot builds for you can automate the repetitive stuff that's eating away your day bottom
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  one platform instead of duct tape together if you're tired of being spread too thin check out
• 59:26
  hubspot.com slash marketers to see how this actually works i'm curious uh when you think about when
• 59:33
  you think about how AI tools will continue to get better in the future i'm wondering why uh like
• 59:41
  you look at open AI and chat GPT and cloud why aren't why aren't they optimizing for reducing cognitive
• 59:50
  load because i think if you ask Sam Altman he'll say that he is but i don't i mean i use it every
• 59:58
  single day i don't think that it really is is done a good job of of reducing cognitive load on the
• 1:00:04
  user yeah we'll agree we'll it's like yes and no both definitely they're improving every day
• 1:00:10
  but being into foundational model they are having a lots of challenges so if you if you look at the
• 1:00:15
  GPT 3 versus GPT 5 definitely they they make it lots lots of advancement into that model
• 1:00:21
  but because they are solving a horizontal purpose they are solving everything that user is a one
• 1:00:26
  from their platform so now the expectations are that high we are not able to see those
• 1:00:31
  uh improvements and all because like in two years our life has been completely changed so
• 1:00:36
  when we look at like foundational models like cloud growth or open AI we think like okay now they
• 1:00:40
  are not improving that fast but our expectations were very high like when GPT 3 launched we were not
• 1:00:46
  expecting anything at all but now we are expecting like they they should give us like 100% accurate
• 1:00:51
  result without saying anything they should understand us so let me let me tell you a very small
• 1:00:58
  observation like okay after the memory feature like initially when you were doing something with
• 1:01:03
  the chat GPT you need to explain everything in the individual threads but now they are having
• 1:01:08
  the memory feature so ultimately whatever you're explaining so let's say I'm if I'm explaining
• 1:01:12
  about myself to a chat GPT in one thread in another thread if I'm talking about like okay consider
• 1:01:18
  my persona and write this thing for me so it it will remember your entire thing like who you are
• 1:01:24
  and what are you doing and everything that's a very small feature but a very very powerful because
• 1:01:29
  now every time I don't need to explain the entire context to a chat GPT so a very small feature but
• 1:01:37
  very powerful so you need to observe like where they are moving how they are moving but as I said
• 1:01:40
  like now expectations are quite different so we think like they are not moving enough fast so
• 1:01:48
  it's always a quite a problem I want to I want to talk about AI replacing people so you've said
• 1:01:55
  a few things you said that AI won't replace people it replaces mundane work which I agree with
• 1:02:01
  you've also said that if someone isn't adopting AI they will they will definitely get replaced
• 1:02:06
  so for the average person who's listening who's a developer they're you know they're listening
• 1:02:13
  this conversation they're like what do you mean AI it's not going to replace me you just told me
• 1:02:18
  that in 25 minutes not only can it do research it can do it can do product it can do UI UX it can do
• 1:02:28
  basically everything that I do in my job how will this not replace me as a developer what are you
• 1:02:33
  saying to that person so see there are like two things air will not replace you is it right and
• 1:02:39
  wrong again if you will not adopt AI AI will definitely replace you and what I fundamentally believe
• 1:02:47
  is like AI will reform and restructure everything from now so let's say when I say the restructuring
• 1:02:53
  and the reform initially we have a roles like in product designer product manager and then maybe
• 1:02:59
  a friend and developers the going forward maybe the role will be AI product designer where a designer
• 1:03:06
  is doing everything using the like conceptualizations to writing the PRD is to delivering the end
• 1:03:12
  code so that's how every role will be redefined the way AI is getting powerful and now you need to
• 1:03:20
  see like what role will be best with the AI and if if you will build your capabilities in that
• 1:03:25
  particular way I will not able to replace you but you just want to stick to your particular role
• 1:03:31
  and if you are not a greatest of the greatest expert of the world then air will replace you so all
• 1:03:37
  the modern and the mediocre work will be replaced by the AI so you need to be expert in something
• 1:03:43
  with AI and that's how you can make sure like you will not be replaced anytime in the world
• 1:03:49
  and there are like 1% of the people who are like super expert in whatever they are doing either
• 1:03:54
  they are doing the designing or they are writing the code and all those we're not going to get
• 1:04:00
  replaced by any system of the world because those were the like people who are believing
• 1:04:04
  believing in fundamentals they understand everything and those are the resources who don't
• 1:04:08
  need to add up anything so if you if you are 100% sure you are that kind of an expert who don't
• 1:04:14
  need to be changed with the AI who understand every fundamental piece of a job that you are doing
• 1:04:20
  you don't need to worry but if you if you know like you are if you're not that one person and if
• 1:04:25
  you are coming you are you are a part of 99% then you need to think like okay how my role is
• 1:04:31
  going to redefine in the age of AI and how I can be fit for that and if you are adopted like no one
• 1:04:37
  can replace you say I'm a founder I can build an app now in 25 minutes who do I need on my team
• 1:04:44
  do I need any developers do I need a CT like who do I need who don't whom I hiring now like
• 1:04:49
  what is your vision like what is your true vision for the future is it going to be everybody's a solo
• 1:04:53
  printer a good question and you put me in a controversial space now okay so right now if I talk
• 1:05:00
  about the current version of rocket definitely you need a developer because you need someone to
• 1:05:06
  validate the code that we are generating at this moment like okay isn't the secure code definitely
• 1:05:11
  we are saying like this is a secure code but at least you need couple of folks if you are building
• 1:05:15
  a really serious system then in 25 minutes not just enough so for an example there are multiple
• 1:05:20
  things and as a founder what role you want to own so initially founder were handling the product
• 1:05:26
  management and and the engineering and then other things but in the age of AI when you know like
• 1:05:31
  product anyone can build product very quickly you need to focus on the GTN so you can hire like
• 1:05:38
  few folks who can manage your product and who can who can delete very quick product using
• 1:05:43
  a vibe coding platform like rocket and as a founder you need to focus on the GTN so a solo
• 1:05:48
  printer is definitely a good thing but it's just and just to validate your idea so now here I
• 1:05:54
  talk about the fundamental chip okay with the vibe coding platform when when you are creating the
• 1:05:59
  first version initially to build the MVP to conceptualize your problem and the product you were
• 1:06:07
  taking like lots of time and you need to put lots of money and that were like most riskiest face
• 1:06:12
  of your life of your startup life where you don't know will will my idea work or not and you
• 1:06:18
  are trying to explain your concept verbally to your users to get a feedback now with the AI
• 1:06:23
  without hiring a developer as a solo printer you can go very quick in market like in just month
• 1:06:29
  of time you can get the validation you can do everything and then you can think like okay now I
• 1:06:34
  want to scale my product I want to launch more and more features inside this and I will focus on
• 1:06:39
  the GTN to build my first million dollars of ARR let's say for an example that's where you can
• 1:06:44
  hire a couple of developers you can give a rocket platform to them so they can expand your product
• 1:06:49
  very quickly as a single person it will be tough for you to manage your GTN your rest of the
• 1:06:55
  things validation of the product and also definitely will require developer but before before AI
• 1:07:02
  and this kind of a platform you may require like 5 to 10 people of team now you can do the same
• 1:07:08
  thing with like just like two or three folks so that's how things are getting different but
• 1:07:14
  you will not require any person at all in your team is the wrong statement I'm just wondering what
• 1:07:20
  like what a software like what a software team looks like in five years from now for somebody like
• 1:07:26
  and and and for somebody who is like again they're not the top 0.01 percent they're not CTO they're
• 1:07:35
  not somebody who is you know has built apps and exited they're not somebody that has those accolades
• 1:07:42
  they're somebody who is like learning CS their their early stage in their career developer
• 1:07:50
  and they want to have a future well describe I want you to describe what a software team looks
• 1:07:56
  like in five years from now but I want you to describe it so that that person who is concerned
• 1:08:01
  about AI taking their job because you know they are when you're just starting you are mediocre
• 1:08:07
  that's that's how you are you start out mediocre you don't start out the best of the best
• 1:08:11
  so what can that person do to be part of that software team or that development team in the future
• 1:08:18
  oh uh the one thing like now there is a scope of an AI developers data engineers because AI
• 1:08:24
  needs lots of things like fine tuning of model to uh uh having like advanced rig system the contextual
• 1:08:31
  system and also a definitely the developers job will be there but as I said like okay uh the
• 1:08:36
  front end and back end developers job will be redefined to AI developers where they will do a
• 1:08:41
  lot of AI work and optimizing the database and right now still we are having a lots of hallucinations
• 1:08:46
  and also ultimately the job will shift from a ordinary front end back end developers to AI
• 1:08:51
  developers the way this end I understood started like software industry initially we were doing
• 1:08:57
  like shishap and vb.net and and and and cc c++ stand up and programming now everyone is like
• 1:09:03
  having a proper front end and back end developer so whenever there is a industrial revolution
• 1:09:09
  come or whenever there is a big change happen in your uh in your industry always remember like
• 1:09:14
  you will not be replaced your role will be redefined and are you ready for that or not so ultimately
• 1:09:19
  even if you are a mediocre software developer either you can think like how you can become
• 1:09:22
  AI developers and you need to start learning from now so you can you can you can become expert of
• 1:09:28
  that another part is like okay if you don't want to change if you want to stick to a front end and
• 1:09:32
  back end developer and as I said like there will be need of them as well but then they need to think
• 1:09:36
  using a web coding platform or using any AI platform like cursor or a rocket or anything
• 1:09:43
  how they can be like 10x powerful and productive not just in delivering the code but okay now
• 1:09:49
  because I have a time I can own the product I can think from the product management lens
• 1:09:54
  I can deliver the code I can test it at my own and that's how I will I I can do a five people
• 1:10:02
  five persons job at alone like product management designer, coder, unit tester and the DevOps guy
• 1:10:10
  single-handedly and and that's how the role will be very different I don't know what we call it but
• 1:10:16
  the way you said now we have we are having a forward deploy engineer FDE that role was not
• 1:10:23
  there even like before two years now everyone is talking about the forward deploy engine FDE is
• 1:10:28
  everyone is talking about a GTM developer like roles are like completely new in the age of
• 1:10:35
  AI and that's is going to happen so you as a if you are a mediocre resource you just need to figure
• 1:10:40
  out like where you will fitting and you start need to learn those things just to make sure you will
• 1:10:47
  your future will be secure one thing you mentioned I much I think is another thing that we're all
• 1:10:51
  trying to solve for is hallucination and I I'm curious as somebody who's building something right
• 1:10:59
  now where does hallucination even come from and and then how do you how do you actually end up
• 1:11:06
  solving for it and and making it so that we hallucinate less so we can trust the results a little bit
• 1:11:10
  more because I know that I think that now they do tests and benchmarks again like on generative chat
• 1:11:16
  tools and it's getting better every time there's like a new version released but what is that what
• 1:11:21
  is causing that hallucination so the first thing is like a vague requirement and the vague prompt so
• 1:11:28
  what is that hallucination you were expecting something and you get a very different is definitely
• 1:11:32
  sometimes every software is error it's not a new thing to be honest like even human being also
• 1:11:37
  hallucinate like okay let's let's take a very wild guess often support system okay you have
• 1:11:44
  like support department you have a 10 people generally what is our air a success rate or like
• 1:11:50
  error rate in if if there is no AI at all human also operated like 60 to 70 percent of
• 1:11:57
  accuracy rate generally like okay sometimes they give a wrong response to a user or
• 1:12:01
  sometimes they give a respond bill your user get offended they also make a 30 percent 40 percent
• 1:12:06
  of mistakes but our full tolerance rate was such a high when it comes to human to human
• 1:12:10
  interaction we say okay it's a human being they can make mistake even if we consider the
• 1:12:16
  a kind of an hallucinous rate or hallucination rate or error rate with the AI system it may be
• 1:12:20
  sometimes like 10 percent or less than 20 percent but we are not able to we are not having that
• 1:12:25
  full tolerance rate inside us like okay if machine machine should be 100 percent perfect
• 1:12:30
  even after like a 30 40 years of like software development still software are having the errors
• 1:12:36
  otherwise we should not have the maintainer steam at all still the systems are broken which
• 1:12:41
  is not built on the AI or anything which is built by the human being still a login page
• 1:12:46
  maintenance having the error like you don't receive the OTP if you see everywhere there is a
• 1:12:50
  hallucination everywhere there are errors but with the AI the kind of an high pair is getting
• 1:12:55
  the definitely the controversial side will also get that high and that's where we are making this
• 1:12:59
  hallucination of a lot bigger than actually it is every day everyone is improving but now people
• 1:13:05
  are expecting 99.99 percent or 100 percent accuracy which is definitely not going to be there
• 1:13:11
  and the reason is the second point you explain something to a system in you expecting 100 percent
• 1:13:16
  but you are not translating what you are having in your brain let's say let's talk about like again
• 1:13:23
  I'm taking one example you are my client and I'm I'm I'm I'm just putting a row vague requirement
• 1:13:30
  in an LLM I want to write a proposal to score and just draft it off for me and then I will say like
• 1:13:36
  okay hallucinating is having lots of error is it's not generating the way I want
• 1:13:41
  first is I'm not saying who is caught what I have in mind what kind of in terms I want to write
• 1:13:47
  where he is sitting where I am sitting what are the jurisdiction that I want to cover LLM like you
• 1:13:52
  didn't give any context to LLM and you're expecting 100 percent accuracy result when when you when you
• 1:13:58
  create a bound so when you put a very broad word like okay create a best proposal for me as I said
• 1:14:04
  it's a two broad requirement there is nothing like and best you need to define what is best for you
• 1:14:11
  in your case that's where LLM can give you better results and you will see like now now you are
• 1:14:17
  getting a super quality results which is not generic which is not hallucinated and as I said still
• 1:14:22
  because of an error of an foundational model you still may have like 20 or 10 to 20 percent of
• 1:14:28
  variation but you should adapt it by the time it will it will get fixed but be very specific when
• 1:14:35
  are you putting any instruction in any AI system just to get the right results when you look at
• 1:14:43
  I would actually love to do another conversation with you about like just the future of AI in general
• 1:14:47
  because that could be like a very that could be a whole other probably two hour conversation
• 1:14:51
  but when we just look at you know how fast removing the success that rocket has had the success
• 1:14:57
  like a lot of a lot of AI tools and platforms have had where are we going to be in the next year
• 1:15:08
  from now like I mean you were in it you're building we're talking about hallucinations we're talking
• 1:15:13
  about we're talking about reductive cognitive load we're talking about the effects on the actual
• 1:15:19
  people that are using it and how they have to upscale to stay relevant like I know this is a very
• 1:15:26
  broad question but just what is your what is your prediction for what the world looks like a year
• 1:15:33
  from now I won't even say five years because that will be crazy to even try and guess but a year
• 1:15:39
  from now what do you think the world of AI looks like so I know there's will it happen in a year or
• 1:15:46
  now a year or like later but we will see a glimpse of Jarvis with everyone like when we're moving
• 1:15:54
  when we're watching that movie everyone was fascinating with the Jarvis and everything like the way
• 1:16:01
  it was handling every work to be honest like we'll start getting a beta version of Jarvis with everyone
• 1:16:06
  affordable because like when we're looking at that setup in the Ironman movie everyone was saying
• 1:16:11
  like this is not possible or I cannot afford it but now everyone will have their personal Jarvis in
• 1:16:15
  a year in some form of an applications or a multiple form where you you you know need to focus on
• 1:16:22
  any mediocre work or a mundane and repetitive work that will be replaced by the AI for sure you're
• 1:16:27
  only a few months in you have over 10,000 paying customers you have four to 100 companies using
• 1:16:34
  and piloting your product so when you think about the speed and the growth of rocket
• 1:16:42
  do you think that it's luck timing you as a founder like what what allowed you to be successful
• 1:16:51
  this quickly have you thought about that to be honest not it's like five months of success was
• 1:16:57
  with four years of hard work is what I always think about like it's not just in like overnight
• 1:17:03
  success so someone reach out to me like okay this is crazy like you got a 15 million dollars of fun
• 1:17:10
  in a 15 weeks I said it's just a tip of the iceberg like four years of hard work plus a 15 weeks of
• 1:17:19
  a rocket which leads to a 15 million dollars of seed drawn so it's always about that like I never
• 1:17:25
  think about the timeline and all what I always think about like where I want to go and how quickly
• 1:17:30
  I can go there and like I try to align my entire team towards that particular vision and the next
• 1:17:34
  milestone and that's how we work like 10 hours 15 hours a day it does not matter we just want to
• 1:17:40
  work and we just want to show it to the world what does success mean for you yeah I don't think
• 1:17:45
  much about it like I always think about the next milestone but for me the success is like when
• 1:17:50
  everyone will start using AI in the day to day life doesn't matter like what kind of a background
• 1:17:55
  that person is and that system is built from my city like when they when they go to know like okay
• 1:18:00
  so that is not just for the diamond so that can make a really good product as well for me that's
• 1:18:05
  the kind of success statement and another thing that I think is admirable like I mentioned at
• 1:18:10
  beginning how I love the fact that you are putting your city on the map and you're being a good
• 1:18:14
  role model for other entrepreneurs but you also focus on not just for making like a product first
• 1:18:21
  business so again you build something that people actually want to use and works well but you also
• 1:18:26
  focus on building a sustainable business so just touch on that for a moment because I think that
• 1:18:32
  a lot of people who are listening who are entrepreneurs they've heard of the importance of product
• 1:18:37
  like you know product first marketing product first entrepreneurship like have something that
• 1:18:41
  actually works as opposed to just an idea that you're raising money on like have something that
• 1:18:45
  actually solves the problem people want to pay for I think that's a very healthy way to look at
• 1:18:49
  entrepreneurship but what does sustainable business mean and why is this so important so
• 1:18:54
  sustainable this simply means like you need to have a good growth margins where you can
• 1:18:58
  survive your cake to elevation is to be in control without a good so in this in during the
• 1:19:04
  sales business like 80% where like a growth margin a standard growth margin below that growth margin
• 1:19:10
  was like bad in the in the edge of LLM when you know like your highest cost is going to be
• 1:19:15
  the LLM just to serve your customer and if you are just operating it like a single digit growth
• 1:19:21
  margin or a 15% 20% growth margin which is like right now everyone is doing it is quite a risk
• 1:19:28
  business in a long term if you're if you're not able to raise a big rounds and all and then
• 1:19:33
  if I get flattered you are the first one who will get impacted so you till in the edge of LLM you
• 1:19:39
  need to think about your engineering you need to think about everything to build a good growth margins
• 1:19:44
  and that's what I call a sustainable business you've mentioned a few different mental models
• 1:19:49
  that you apply to your business and to rock it and just like yourself as an entrepreneur
• 1:19:55
  what would be one more mental model or idea or principle that's really helped you out that you
• 1:20:00
  think somebody who's just starting building a young entrepreneur would benefit from learning
• 1:20:05
  the first mental model that I talk about is like first principle then second mental model that
• 1:20:10
  I've always implemented in my businesses like it's even not a mental model but it's like you
• 1:20:16
  should control your mathematics you should control all the funnels everything being a founder like
• 1:20:22
  if you're not in a finance space you cannot say like I do not understand you you need to control
• 1:20:27
  at the higher level you need to have a knowledge about everything like how your a burn rate is
• 1:20:33
  where your burn rate is moving how much fund you are having everything so ultimately when
• 1:20:38
  you know the mathematical questions very well you will able to control it otherwise you will not
• 1:20:42
  able to connect the dots so always take a decision after connecting the dots do not make a decision
• 1:20:49
  just based on a one situation you need to think from the future perspective you need to think
• 1:20:54
  from the current perspective you're competing a perspective the capability is your team is having
• 1:20:58
  so a business is all about like connect all the dots figure out your capabilities and then
• 1:21:05
  then build it like okay my computer is doing this so you don't need to jump into that you need to
• 1:21:09
  think at your own why why you want to do that is it aligned with your user is your team capable
• 1:21:15
  to deliver it or not so don't just get into a vanity matrix don't just get distracted by what
• 1:21:21
  people are doing have your own thinking and do something which you believe so just stay away from
• 1:21:27
  the vanity and less destruction just focus on something that which you are building do you find
• 1:21:34
  that do you find that when founders are scared to go into the data or the numbers they end up
• 1:21:41
  making more emotional decisions that's that's what founder is all about in the early days suddenly
• 1:21:48
  everyone makes that mistake and a many times like in the early days the problem is like you don't
• 1:21:53
  have the enough data and I would say like it's not all of every time it's all about like making
• 1:21:59
  a decision after looking at the data sometimes you need to take a bold shot like if change deputy look
• 1:22:05
  at the data before building the change deputy then they will never able to build the change deputy
• 1:22:09
  because no one we're talking about the GPT-2 and GPT-1 it's all about like this thing will work
• 1:22:15
  for the world and and that's how they build it so sometimes founders needs to be that
• 1:22:19
  visionary where you don't have the data and still you're making a call but it should not be like
• 1:22:23
  out of your all ten lessons you are making out of emotions once you have a stable business once
• 1:22:28
  you have a user data you need to combine both I want people to connect with you and I want people
• 1:22:34
  to go explore and try rocket and I want them to to try it out if you want to connect with some
• 1:22:41
  people that listen to this podcast where would you want them to go any kind of socials that you
• 1:22:46
  want to send them to website that they should go check out KX.com slash we shall be running 91 and on
• 1:22:51
  LinkedIn it's like LinkedIn.com slash we shall be running so these are like two platforms I've always
• 1:22:57
  last thing I like to ask is I mean you're given over a lot of wisdom and I mean you are a serial
• 1:23:03
  entrepreneur and you're building something that is it's truly bleeding edge but if you had to go
• 1:23:08
  back and tell you know 20-year-old Vishal one piece of advice what would that piece of advice be
• 1:23:14
  and why if I look back at like 20-year-old Vishal at that time like I was I want to do too many
• 1:23:20
  things like I want to do I want to run a service company I want to do product and many other
• 1:23:25
  thing after my 10 years and 12 years of experience what I realized like okay just focus on one thing
• 1:23:32
  make it like a perfect just give you a hundred percent into one thing so if you are a
• 1:23:38
  if you are at your early stage and if you're having lots of thoughts and a distraction just stay
• 1:23:43
  away from it just speak one thing align it to your life goal and just put your hundred percent of
• 1:23:48
  efforts to that and that's how you can make it bigger like if you are too much distracted and if
• 1:23:52
  you're trying to do too many things at the in the very beginning you you may fail so I did that
• 1:23:59
  in the early days and that's where I wasted my couple of years of life as an entrepreneur
• 1:24:04
  where I now I think I can I would able to do a much better job at that time if I know those
• 1:24:12
  facts so this is like one advice that I can give it to Vishal of like 20-year-old who started the
• 1:24:18
  business